Episode 202 - The History of Horror Sequels

This week on Lunatics Radio Hour, we're exploring the history of horror sequels. It might seem like an unusual topic, but sequels have played a major role in the development of the horror genre. Horror has embraced sequels and franchises more successfully than almost any other genre, creating some of the most recognizable characters in film history and filling the genre's archives with long-running series.

In this episode, we trace the evolution of horror sequels from the Universal monster films of the 1930s through the slasher boom of the 1980s and into the modern era. We discuss why horror became the genre most closely associated with franchises and how sequels helped shape the industry.

We're also kicking off the Second Scary Scuffle, our head-to-head tournament that pits horror's greatest sequel monsters and villains against one another to determine the ultimate champion. Listen in as we examine the history behind horror sequels and begin the battle to crown the greatest horror sequel character of all time.

Sources

• Fangoria article by Will Jones: How The Horror Genre Created The World of Legacy Sequels 
• Den of Geek article by David Crow and Joe George: The 31 Best Horror Franchises of All Times, Ranked
• Entertainment Weekly article by Steven Thrash: The 20 best horror sequels of all time 
• Forbes article by Mark Hughes: Top 10 Most Successful Horror Sequels of All Time

Get Lunatics Merch here. Join the discussion on Discord. Check out Abby's book Horror Stories. Available in eBook and paperback. Music by Michaela Papa, Alan Kudan & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by Pilar Keprta @pilar.kep.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Lunatics Radio Hour Podcast. My name is Abby Branker. I am sitting here with Alan Kudan.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Hello.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Films across all genres have sequels, but horror embraced sequels earlier, more aggressively, and more successfully than almost any other corner of cinema.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

I'm trying to prove you wrong, but I I got nothing.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Today we are talking about the history of horror sequels. And there's a really good reason for that, which we will get to later. While dramas and comedies often tell complete stories, horror discovered something incredibly valuable. Monsters can come back. In many ways, the history of horror sequels is the history of horror itself. I mean, think about all of the franchises that we've covered on this podcast. Like what? We've done Halloween, we've done Nightmare on Elm Street, we've done Friday the 13th, just to name a few.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

I think that's all of them, actually.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

But there's so many horror franchises out there, right, that have really strong cult followings.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah, like Leprechaun.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

And that's something that puts horror, you

Why Horror Loves Sequels

SPEAKER_00 1:20

know, I think a little bit aside from other genres.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

I've never seen The Howling.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Yes, you have.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Why are you thinking about the howling?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Because there's a lot of them. There's like seven of them. What if I have, I I don't remember it. Is it good?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah, it was pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

What about number six?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

I only saw the first one.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

The Frankenstein monster, Michael Myers, Freddie Krueger, Jason Forhees, Ghostface, Chucky, and countless others became more than characters. They are recurring myths.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

You should put Pinhead in that list.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Sure. Pinhead. Is he does he last for the whole series?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

I'm so glad you brought this up. So originally, Pinhead is very a very small part of Hellraiser One.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

The the main antagonist of Hellraiser One is uh Frank, the the the guy who originally summons the Cenobites and then slowly becomes resurrected through sacrifice.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

And then in Hellraiser 2, my mild spoiler, sure. The woman that helps Frank also dies.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Um because she slowly becomes uh the villain throughout the movie. And she was supposed to be the big bad of the series because she, you know, she gets she gets resurrected in number two. The whole series was supposed to focus on her being, again, the the big bad.

Pinhead And The Villain Problem

SPEAKER_01 2:37

But Pinhead specifically tested so well with audiences that Clive Barker rewrote some some things uh to make him have a bigger part, but then the budget just wasn't there for Hellraiser 2 to do all these like heavy flashbacks on like Pinhead's origins and to make him more of a character. Yeah. So the the movie r is really split, uh focusing on who does what. But after that, uh it really just kind of zeroes in on like we love seeing you know the cenobites rip people apart, so that's what we're gonna focus on.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

It's so interesting, and I think what you're saying right now, and it's like one of the main points we're gonna make on this episode, which is sequels in horror function in different ways, and it's really fun to kind of track these throughout the history of horror and see how different franchises or different genres of horror have played with things, right? Like obviously you have slasher films where the slashers get more and more ludicrous over time.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Right. It just becomes more about the kills than it does about the character piece.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Right. But then you have something like Final Destination where it's like the setup that's recurring and the characters are not. You know what I mean? Sure to some extent. But there's like there's different ways to slice the guys. I know, but you but you get what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Because the character the antagonist is death.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Sure. They're just But it's the same thing with Saw, or like, you know, it's like there's a it's more of a universe.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

I'm giving you a very suspicious eyes with Saw.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

It's not that the villain changes in Saw, it's that the reason why it's interesting to go back isn't because Jigsaw gets more and more and more campy.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

It's because No, he gets more cancer-y.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Yeah. But you get to see people, different people go through his universe.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

You know, and so there's different ways to think about sequels, and we're gonna talk about it all today.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Yeah, I'm I'm thinking of uh The Simpsons.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

And how you have such a long-running franchise that has gone through so, so many different writers, so many different directors, so many different artists. You'd think it would be very different where it started versus you know where it is now. Yeah. And to an extent it is, but also there are just like some cornerstones. Like there's this guide that has been uh that gets reposted every now and then just because it's pretty interesting. Yeah. Uh about how all these boxes that need to be checked when uh drawing these characters. Because like you can take a liberty going this direction, but this you absolutely cannot. This has to be like this. Otherwise, it's too different from the source material.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Yeah, it's all fascinating. It's really cool. We're gonna talk through all of it. So we have a few sources for today: a Fangoria article by Will Jones, how the horror genre created the world of legacy sequels, a den of geek article by David Crow and Joe George, the 31 best horror franchises of all time, ranked, an entertainment weekly article by Stephen Thrash, the 20 best horror sequels of all time, and a Forbes article by Mark Hughes, Top 10 Most Successful Horror Sequels of All Time. While Universal popularized the idea of recurring cinematic monsters, the idea of horror continuation existed earlier. Silent era films occasionally revisited characters and supernatural ideas, but these films were less influential in creating the franchise model that audiences recognize today. So we're really going to start this conversation with Universal. When people talk about the birth of horror cinema, they usually talk about universal pictures in the 1930s. Films like Dracula from 1931, Frankenstein from 1931, and The Invisible Man from 1933 helped define the genre. And again, there are some silent films that I would personally call horror. But when we really start talking about solidifying the genre, this is kind of where we're I mean Nosferatu got a reboot just last year. That's actually a really good point, Alan. Can you talk us through the difference between a reboot and a sequel? Because there's gonna be some fine lines today.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Sure. So a sequel is a direct continuation. A reboot is a remaking of the

Universal Monsters Build The Blueprint

SPEAKER_01 6:42

same universe. So it doesn't have to have the same story. It just has to have, you know, the the same cornerstone elements of the original.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

But something really important happened a few years after some of these initial Universal Monster movies came out. Universal realized audiences wanted to revisit them, that they could continue to make money by expanding on the existing characters and universes that audiences were already fans of, and they did not need to necessarily reinvent the wheel over and over again. In 1935, Bride of Frankenstein was released. It was released four years after Frankenstein, and Bride of Frankenstein is often considered as one of the first major horror sequels of all time, and one of the rare sequels that surpassed its predecessor in critical reception. So though certainly I would say Frankenstein is just as famous as a Bride of Frankenstein, from like a film critic perspective, Bride of Frankenstein is quite highly acclaimed.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

I mean, that's pretty good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Directed by James Whale and starring Boris Karloff, the film continues the story of Frankenstein's monster and introduces the bride. Rather than simply repeating the original story, the sequel expanded the monster's character and explored themes of isolation, acceptance, and humanity. Universal continued this approach throughout the 1940s. The Invisible Man Returns was Universal Pictures' first sequel to The Invisible Man from 1933. Rather than bringing back the original protagonist, the film introduced a new character who uses the invisibility formula. The sequel established a model that many later horror franchises would follow by building on a concept rather than relying on the same villain or storyline. This is what we were just talking about at the beginning. It also helped Universal develop its growing roster of recurring horror properties during the 30s and 40s. As a sequel to Creature from the Black Lagoon, Revenge of the Creature brought back the Gill Man for another encounter with humans after being captured and transported to a Florida aquarium.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

It's a very sad movie.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

It's so sad.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

And just kind of depressing.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

On many levels. Like the Gill Man is inappropriate. His the tr way that he's treated is inappropriate. Everybody's wrong. It's sad.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

As much as we love Creature, it's not a good movie.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

And it had so much promise.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

I know. At least the first one slips.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Oh, it's so good. The film is important for two reasons. One, because it kind of gives us this sci-fi horror sequel, right, which is really interesting. But also, notably, it's one of Clint Eastwood's earliest screen appearances.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Clint Eastwood's in Creature 2?

SPEAKER_00 9:15

He plays a lab technician named Jennings.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

God, this guy is so old.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

I know. He came out in 1955.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

He's still directing.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

I know. Crazy. The studio eventually built an interconnected universe of monsters decades before modern cinematic universes became fashionable. Unlike many modern franchises, Universal's monster films were not planned as a single connected universe from the beginning. These connections developed gradually as audiences responded to familiar characters, and studios recognized the value of bringing them back, right? So when you get Dracula versus the Wolfman or Frankenstein, Al Abbott and Costello, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Which obviously is a bit of a precursor for like the Marvel cinematic universe, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Yeah. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Horror became one of Hollywood's earliest franchise-friendly genres because the financial risks were often lower than other types of filmmaking. A successful horror movie did not require a new concept every time. Studios could reuse, obviously, the monsters, the settings, or the mythology. This made horror sequels attractive from a business perspective, especially because many horror films were made on relatively modest budgets and could generate significant profits.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

On one hand, the commercialism kind of pushed the film industry into what it is today, uh, which is everything is a reboot or a sequel. Sure. Or at best, an adaptation. The true leg uh true original works are so uncommon. But that said, like, there's something so fun and comforting about a a sequel to a beloved movie where you're just kind of getting, you know, more of the same, but this time with like a bigger budget, hopefully. I know horror usually goes down the the opposite road uh of budgets kind of go down and down. Although I will say horror oftentimes has like a bump. Like the first movie is low budget, and then the second movie, because the first movie made a lot, has a big budget. Sure. And then it's after that that the the budgets goes go down and down and down, along with the quality.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

That's a really good point. And I think that's something that can be fun. Like again, there's been a few times where we've sat down and watched the you know, the entire collection of movies and franchises, and you can really tell that arc is like very, very clear. For several decades, horror sequels appeared sporadically. Everything changed in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Released three years after Jaws, Jaws 2 was one of the earliest examples of a modern blockbuster sequel. Before the Blockbuster era, sequels were often viewed as lesser versions of original films.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Straight to Home Movie.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Actually, no, wait, what when was Jaws 2?

SPEAKER_00 11:58

1978.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Uh, we didn't really have Home Movie yet.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

We're gonna get there though. The success of movies like Jaws 2 demonstrated a major shift in Hollywood thinking. Studios began seeing franchises not just as collections of films, but as long-term properties that would allow them to create repeat audiences. The film follows police chief Martin Brody as another great white shark threatens Amity Island. While it did not have the same cultural impact as the original, it was a major commercial success and showed Hollywood that successful horror blockbusters could become ongoing franchises. Its financial performance encouraged studios to invest more heavily in sequel production during the late 70s and 80s. The enormous success of Halloween from 1978 and Friday the 13th from 1980 convinced studios even further that horror franchises could become reliable moneymakers. Halloween 2 picks up immediately after the events of John Carpenter's original film. Written by Carpenter and directed by Rick Rosenthal, the sequel follows Michael Myers as he continues his pursuit of Lori Strode.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

It

Blockbusters To Slashers That Print Money

SPEAKER_01 13:01

follows his continual pursuit of an art degree.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

The film is particularly significant because it introduced the idea, the controversial idea, that Lori and Michael were siblings, a storyline that influenced the franchise for decades. It also helped establish the practice of direct continuation, with many later horror sequels taking place immediately after the events of their predecessors.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

It's basically endorsed fan fiction.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Well, I mean, Carpenter wrote it.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah, he's a big fan of his own work.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Meanwhile, Friday the 13th, part two came out in 1981, a year after the original, and it created one of horror's greatest icons. Because, again, reminder, Jason Voorhees really isn't in part one that much, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Spoilers.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

And part two transformed him into the franchise's central villain. He wears a sack over his head, he doesn't get the hockey mask until the third movie, and he really becomes like one of the top three slasher icons of all time.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Possibly the biggest. I don't know about that. I'd say he's the most iconic. In terms of people that don't watch horror movies, they can take one look at Jason and be like, he's from that movie.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Okay, sure.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Specifically with the Machetean mask. Simply because that idea has been parodied so many times outside of the franchise.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Alright, fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Who would you say is the biggest?

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Michael Myers.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

I'd say I he's qu he's quite big, but he's no hockey mask killer.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

He's a William Shatner mask killer.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Yeah, which is a bit more niche.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Sure. A few years later, a nightmare on Elm Street 2, Freddy's Revenge, came out in 1985. Freddy Krueger evolved from a terrifying dream stalker into a franchise centerpiece. While divisive upon release, the film has since been re-evaluated for its subtext and its unique place within queer horror history. What?

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Really?

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah, so there's some analysis from a modern lens in which people think that the main character, this character Jesse Walsh, who's played by Mark Patton, and essentially he's sort of possessed by Freddy, and that this serves as an allegory for repressed sexuality and gay panic.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Okay. I didn't get that, but that's all right.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

I think a lot of people didn't. I think it kind of has emerged recently.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

From uh Wes Craven himself.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

One of the defining differences between horror sequels and sequels in other genres is that audiences often return for the antagonist rather than the protagonist.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

For sure. I mean, they're they're so much cooler.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Yeah, it's just it's just very different than I mean, what's a fran I guess the other franchises I can really think of outside of horror are are like action or sci-fi.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Right. And then you have Alien, which just bridges the gap.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

But in action franchises, are you going for the protagonist or the antagonist?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Protagonist.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Right. So I think that's why horror is a little bit different.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Right. Think of Die Hard. You're always with John McLean. Because he always kills the bad guy at the end. Sorry, spoilers.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Spoilers. One of the most surprising sequels of the era was Psycho 2 from 1983. Psycho 2 was released more than 20 years after Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho. Psycho 2 follows Norman Bates after his release from a psychiatric institution. Many critics and audiences initially viewed the project with skepticism because of the original film's status as a classic. However, the sequel received positive reviews and strong box office returns. Its success showed that older horror properties could be revisited successfully and still kind of serve their place in Hollywood, right? So the pattern started to become very clear to studios. Audiences weren't just interested in scary stories, they were interested in these specific villains, right? They had favorites. But horror sequels face a unique challenge. Fear often comes from the unknown, but sequels require familiarity. Filmmakers solve this problem by changing the source of suspense. The first film introduces the threat, and later films typically expand the mythology, reveal new rules, increase the scale, or explore consequences that were only hinted at originally, right? They have to figure out a way, if you're using the same villain, to keep the audience scared and to not get kind of overly saturated by that villain.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Right. And usually you delve into a mythos. You make the villain have new abilities. Oh, I'm I'm I'm trying to think of like when it's done well. Because, you know, especially in the really long-running franchises, the like the easiest one for us is probably Halloween. Sure. Every few movies you're dealing with a director that just takes a few too many liberties that feels like, yes, it's technically Michael Myers, but is it in but in name only? Right. You know, he's this like uh this undead juggernaut, while in the first one he's just a guy.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

You know I think it's true for for Jason as well. I mean, we just did that whole watch through. Oh, for sure. And those films, like, he loses any semblance of who he was originally.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

So, but when it's done well, I think a great example would be Silence of the Lambs and then Hannibal and then Red Dragon. Hannibal Lecter is not even the main he's not even the main villain of Silence of the Lambs. Yeah. But like, boy, is he iconic from it.

Keeping Fear Fresh With New Rules

SPEAKER_01 18:01

But he was so beloved that he was the focus of the sequel, you know, where they just call it Hannibal.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

And, you know, then in Red Dragon, you still you just go really deep into backstory in very interesting ways. Basically, they make the characters deeper rather than just bigger.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Yeah, and I think that's a great point. Like, there's there's kind of room for everything in horror, right? Like, there's definitely people who want to go see Jason in a spaceship, but then there's also people who are like, wow, Silence of the Lambs, genre aside, is one of the best films ever made. I would love to continue that world in a really thoughtful, non-campy way.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

You know, I I think of Jason, like, do I really want to see a big character piece on Jason Voorhees as he goes through the trial? Not really, but I say that now, but then you can watch Son of Godzilla and watch Godzilla go through all the trials and tribulations of child rearing.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

And like, yeah, watching him trying to take a nap and his kid just won't go to bed is like somehow really endearing. Yeah, it's so cute. So relatable.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

The rise of home video in the 1980s transformed horror franchises. A sequel no longer needed to compete only at the box office. Horror fans could discover movies through rental stores, television broadcasts, and later cable networks. This created a demand for recognizable franchise titles and allowed series like Friday the 13th, A Nightmare on Elm Street, and Hellraiser to continue producing installments even when their theatrical success varied. By the mid-1980s, some filmmakers realized sequels could do more than simply bring monsters back.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yes, sometimes they can send them into space.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Well, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Like in Leprechaun, such as Leprechaun in Space.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Or in Aliens. James Cameron's Aliens followed Ridley Scott's Alien by shifting the franchise from slowburn science fiction horror towards action horror.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

But in all the right ways.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

The film expanded the mythology of the xenomorph species by introducing the alien queen and the concept of a hive structure. It is frequently cited as one of the greatest sequels ever made and demonstrated that a sequel could succeed by changing genres while remaining faithful to the original premise.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah, I mean, I'd say it was the greatest sequel ever made until Terminator 2 Judgment Day came out.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Its influence can be seen across science fiction, horror, and action filmmaking. Released one year after Hellraiser, Hellbound Hellraiser 2 expanded the mythology introduced by Clive Barker's original film. And remind me, Alan, Hellraiser is based on a short story.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

It is, the Hellbound Heart.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

And it's is it very similar?

SPEAKER_01 20:36

The Hellbound Heart is pretty similar to uh the original Hellraiser.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

I'd say that the main the main difference is that there's like a bit more scenobites in the movie than there is the book. Sure. Like the book, they're just this they just show up at very, very specific times. And like it's the same same thing happens in the movie, but you could just tell that, you know, people loved seeing scenobites on screen where the book just really just built up the dread that the character was going through if he ever had to return to them. It's also very gross and very sexy.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

I would like to read it.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

I think you'll really, really enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Maybe that will be my I have a lot of books I'm reading at the same time right now.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Well, for everyone out there, it's a novella. It reads so fast, and it's a great introduction to Clive Barker as a whole.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Maybe a good little summer horror book club.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

I think so.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

So the sequel explores the setabytes, the labyrinth ruled by Leviathan, and the origins of Pinhead. Rather than focusing solely on horror set pieces, the film broadened the scope of the franchise's supernatural world. It became a model for mythology driven sequels that seek to answer questions raised by the original film. With a larger budget than the original Phantasm, Phantasm 2 expanded the story of the tall man and his interdimensional activities. The sequel increased the scale of the action while retaining. Many of the surreal elements that made the first film distinctive. It represents a common sequel strategy of taking a cult film and broadening its scope for a larger audience.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

I'll I'll say, after watching the first Phantasm, I really liked the world that they were building, but I was very confused by a lot of things. It's one of those movies where you just really gotta pay attention.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

It's also just like a kind of like an art film in a way.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

There's a lot that just goes unexplained until sequels. You know, I I read some mythos before I watched the second one, so I knew what to expect. And then in the second one, they just thank God a character just like lays shit out for you sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Where someone's like, Oh, who's that? Oh, that little gremlin thing is a crushed body that has been reanimated and put into a little cloak. Like, ah, so that's who that little guy was running around for the entire first movie.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

As franchises continued growing, some sequels began drifting far away from the tone of the originals. Dun dun dun. Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2 from 1986 is perhaps the most famous example. Directed by Toby Hooper, Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2 took a very different approach from the original film. Alan famously set me up for this in a bad way. While the 1974 movie emphasized realism and brutality, the sequel embraced dark comedy, satire, and exaggerated performances, though still disgusting. The film is often cited as an example of a sequel that deliberately reinvented its franchise rather than attempting to recreate the tone of the original movie.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

I think it was the right call.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Its reputation has grown significantly over time, and it is now considered one of the most distinctive horror sequels of the 1980s. I I agree that the tone is different, certainly. There's no getting around that. That's undebatable. However, it is still horrifying and disgusting.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

For me, it is campy enough that I am unbothered by the gore.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

It's not even, I mean, the gore to some extent, but it's almost just like listening to a woman scream in terror for two hours isn't for me.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Sorry. Gore was the wrong word.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

I mean, there is a lot of blood.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

I'm unbothered by the horrific elements because it seems so fantastic. Yeah. It's it's like in um Dead Alive. I don't know if it's still the case, but for a while it was like the biggest, it's like the goriest scene in in s movies.

When Sequels Go Camp Or Meta

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah. Where he just fights all these zombies with a lawnmower for like 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Yeah, I remember one of our very early dates, you maybe watch this.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah, it's a great movie. Like the it's so ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

That it's like it's hilarious. Now, if you it was in a different movie, if we watched uh a World War II movie and for 20 minutes people were being killed with a lawnmower, I think it would be a very different tone. And I probably wouldn't want to watch that. But uh this one's a lot of fun. And for me, Texas Chainsaw was the same thing. The the second one just made it so silly that I was unbothered.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Palatable.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Palatable.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Directed by Joe Dante, Gremlins 2 is known for its self-aware approach to sequel filmmaking. The film introduces a variety of mutated gremlins and openly satirizes both Hollywood sequels and corporate culture. Rather than attempting to recreate the film's original formula, Dante used the sequel to comment on the concept of sequels themselves. The film has since become a notable example of a sequel that intentionally challenges audiences' expectations. The movie introduces dozens of bizarre new gremlins and constantly pokes fun at the idea that audiences wanted more of the same. Meanwhile, Child's Play 2 helped establish Chucky as one of horror's most recognizable little tiny villains.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Aww.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

The sequel focused more heavily on Chucky's personality, humor, and dialogue than the original film. Many fans consider it one of the strongest entries in the franchise. I just I really want to like Chucky because I like toys.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Okay. It's an interesting reason.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

And I think I had a such a fear of him as a kid that I just I've never really gotten into the whole franchise. I've seen some of the movies, but I've it's just never been for me, and I also don't like his voice.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

I mean, yeah, it's it's supposed to be unsettling. I I don't know. I I too have never really resonated with Chucky. He's just kind of goofy.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

And I don't know, he finds himself just like generally murdering women.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Yeah, but kind of a bummer. I mean, I guess that's true of a lot of these guys, but it is, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

He also like goes after kids, which is weird.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

The first sequel to Candyman relocates the story from Chicago to New Orleans while expanding the backstory of the man who became Candyman. The film explored the character's history and family connections while maintaining the urban legend framework established in the original.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

And you get to learn a fun bit of trivia. What is what is that? Do you remember what the word carnival means? I don't. It's the tagline to the movie. Carnival is Latin for farewell to the flesh.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Oh. We didn't we should have talked about that last week.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

No, it's not a tagline, it's Candyman Farewell to the flesh. It's our Candyman 2. Oh, it's a subheader. I see. Subheader. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

It reflects a common sequel approach of expanding mythology and providing additional context for a popular villain. By the 1990s, audiences were no longer just watching horror sequels. They were familiar with the rules of horror franchises. The genre had become part of popular culture, creating an opportunity for filmmakers to comment on the very formulas they had helped create. Released less than a year after the original, which is a feat, the sequel of Scream continues the story of Sidney Prescott while directly addressing the conventions of sequel filmmaking. Obviously, Screamwright is famous for being meta.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Yes, they talk about sequels many times during the movies.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Characters openly discuss the expectations audiences have for sequels and how they differ from the original films. Released in 1991, Terminator 2 Judgment Day is the sequel to the Terminator from 1984, and it is widely regarded as one of the most influential sequels to your point, Alan, ever made.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Or best movies of all time.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

It was directed by James Cameron. Several of the sequels on our list today were directed by James Cameron.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

He's very good. You should see his work in Titanic.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

He's very good and he's sometimes problematic. Like what? The film reverses the premise of the original by turning Arnold Schwarzenegger's T-800 Terminator into a protector rather than a villain. The story follows Sarah Connor and her son John as they attempt to prevent the rise of Skynet while being pursued by the advanced T 1000, a shape-shifting liquid metal machine.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

God, it's like hearing your teacher try to like rap to get through to the kids.

The Audience Learns The Franchise Formula

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Screw you. The film, I'm gonna keep talking about it. The film significantly expanded the mythology of the original by introducing the future resistance movement, exploring the consequences of AI, topical, and deepening the franchise's time travel concepts. It also raised the scale of the action and visual effects. While often classified as sci-fi action, Terminator 2 remains closely tied to horror through its relentless machine antagonists, and just like general themes of technological fear and the roots and the slasher-like structure of the original movie.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Like if the protagonists did not have so many guns, it would 100% be a horror movie.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Based on Thomas Harris's novel, Hannibal, serves as a sequel to The Silence of the Lambs. The film follows Hannibal Lecter years after his escape from custody and became one of the highest-grossing horror sequels ever released. But by the 2000s, many horror franchises faced a problem created by their own success. Years of sequels could create complicated timelines, inconsistent mythology, and audience fatigue. The legacy sequel emerged partly as a solution to this problem, allowing filmmakers to acknowledge the importance of the original film while creating a simpler entry point for new audiences. We're going to talk more about legacy sequels in a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Is that a a reboot?

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Essentially.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

The early 2000s saw horror move towards more serialized storytelling. Saw 2 from 2005 expanded the mythology surrounding Jigsaw and again shifted what could have easily been a standalone thriller into this major horror saga. Audiences became invested not just in traps, but in the ever-changing narrative. Similarly, Jeepers Creepers 2 from 2003 and 28 weeks later from 2007 shifted attention towards broader worlds and larger consequences.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

That's not really fair with the the 28 Days sequels. The inspection literally spreads across the world. So it just gets bigger and bigger. It's a it's a the story tells itself, really.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Yeah, I'm not I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

How dare you.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Rather than continuing the story of the first film's protagonists, Jeepers Creepers 2 shifts its focus to a new group of characters targeted by the creeper.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Yeah, they're on a bus.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

The sequel expanded the creature's mythology and placed greater emphasis on action in large-scale confrontations.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

This time he has throwing stars.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

You really do love these throwing stars.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

But they're so cool.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Let's talk about Final Destination 2, which built upon the original film's concept that death itself acts as the antagonist. The sequel expanded the franchise's mythology and established rules that would influence later installments. Its elaborate accident sequences became one of the series' defining features. And I think Final Destination is interesting because I think similar to Saw, when you have this sort of premise-based franchise, you just have to try to outdo yourself. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Like yes, you up the ante.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

It's interesting with Final Destination when you ask people to name a scene from Final Destination.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

The log scene.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Yes, but that's Final Destination 2.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

I know. It's interesting. It's how it starts.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

I know, but despite the fact, like Final Destination is the name of a like that's a plane term.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Not everyone remembers that even the first one was all about a plane crash.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yeah. I mean, I also think, I don't know, it's just such a tough watch. It's like, and then three is on the amusement park stuff, right? Yes. And it's just like all stuff I don't want to be ruined. I want to be able to do the ruined.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

It's fun.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Oh, it ruins it for me. It makes me so scared. While the original Saw functioned largely as a contained thriller, Saw 2 transformed the concept to an ongoing franchise. So I want to talk a little bit more about this point that I've been making throughout the episode. Because I think Final Destination and Saw are very good examples of this. Which is that in my head, and tell me if you disagree.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

I probably do.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

There's two camps of horror sequels: Camp Crystal Lake and There's character-driven franchises, right? So you have Dracula, Frankenstein's Monster, Freddy Krueger, etc., right? And then you have concepts.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

So Slay Away camp, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

In addition to Final Destination and Saw, I think a quiet place and alien also fit into this concept. And obviously there's like a type of Predator, but the story is not about the Predator. Like we're not going back to Alien to see the xenomorph. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 33:10

I I I don't know. I I like xenomorphs. Okay, so with the xenomorphs or the Yaucha, which are the the race of beings from Predator, it's a different one every time. And that's a such an easy way for them to reinvent the villain. Where, you know, the the xenomorphs can you just say it was made from a different host. Yeah, and in Alien 3, there's a Xenomorph, or like, you know, there's there's the the Xenomorph facehugger that jumps onto a dog, and then it's like a dog xenomorph hybrid. And it's just like, you know, it's small and it's fast. And actually, I highly recommend looking at the behind the scenes for the making of that film. I I know I've sent you this video before, but just they tried to do with all practical effects at first, and it's just a very happy dog dressed up in a costume. So it does not work well uh as a horror movie. It's incredibly cute. But with the uh with the predators, you know, if you want the predator to have like a bunch of new abilities, you just say this one is an important one. He comes for he's a high-ranking youth jah and you know, he's like the big bad guy that doesn't even need guns because he just punches people. Yeah, he just he just you know like punches people because he doesn't even need his guns.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Today, modern sequels often focus on world building. A quiet place part two expands the post-apocalyptic setting introduced in the original film and also introduces Killian Murphy. Megan 2.0 continues a trend of horror franchises exploring technological anxieties, and it updates classic monster concepts for the digital age. The second film in the main conjuring series follows paranormal investigators Ed and Lorraine Warren during the Enfield poltergeist case in England.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

And if you'd like to learn more about the Enfield poltergeist, go back to episode like two.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Yeah, we did talk about it a long time ago. So the Conjuring 2 is interesting because it's like the first stepping stone, right? Like the Conjuring becomes like I think the biggest horror franchise ever. And so the film expanded this shared universe established by the first movie and introduced the demon Valic, who later became the focus of additional spin-offs. The Conjuring universe spans multiple horror franchises. Is that the right way to say that?

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Uh yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Like the nun, Annabelle, the conjuring, they all exist in the same world. La Yorona somehow.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

It's like that is a better comparison to the Marvel cinematic universe, where, you know, you have the Iron Man movies, you have the Doctor Strange movies, and but they're all connected and they all come together for, you know, to to to fight Thanos. But in the conjuring universe, they all, yes, they take play. It's just I think it's just because it's done by like the same studio, uh, and they have like the license to to to keep it all connected.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah. Um Amity becomes part of it because of Ed and Lorraine. It's like a spider web.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Yes. I don't know how connected it is. I have not seen many of these movies. I don't I just think they're kind of silly. I I just generally don't resonate with any ghost movie where we never get to see the ghost.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

I mean You see like Annabelle, but I don't know. Maybe I just haven't seen enough of them.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Yeah, I've only yeah, I haven't seen many of them because the first was so scary.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Well, they try to be scary. They don't try to be fun and campy.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

I didn't like I know that people aren't gonna like this, but I didn't like the nun. I thought the nun was silly.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

I don't think did a lot of people like the nun?

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Yeah, some I like I can't feel like I can't say that openly. I get canceled.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

I mean it's no nun too, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Still nunning. So let's talk again in a little bit more detail about the legacy sequel.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

One of the most important developments in modern horror has been the rise of the legacy sequel, a film that ignores some or all previous sequels and returns directly to the original story. Kind of like a really great example of this is Halloween from 2018. Directed by David Gordon Green and produced with the involvement of John Carpenter, the film discarded decades of increasingly complicated franchise mythology, including the revelation that Lori Strode was Michael Myers' sister. Instead, it positioned itself as a direct sequel to Halloween from 1978, taking place 40 years after Michael's original Killing Spree. This approach allowed the filmmakers to preserve the cultural weight of the original while giving new audiences a fresh entry point. More importantly, it shifted the focus away from Michael's backstory and back onto Lori, exploring the long-term psychological impact of surviving trauma. The film was critically and commercially successful. It earned over $250 million worldwide on a modest budget. Its influence can be seen in films such as Candyman from 2021, Scream from 2022, The Exorcist Believer from 2023, and Texas Chainsaw Massacre from 2022, all of which attempted to reconnect with the original films while introducing a new generation of characters and audiences.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Or Independence Day Resurgence from 2021.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

You know that I've never seen Independence Day.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Well, don't see the sequel is so dumb.

Legacy Sequels And Clean Timelines

SPEAKER_00 38:17

The the legacy sequel?

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Yes. I mean, is it? No, it's just a sequel.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

It just came much later.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Yeah, 20 years after the first one.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Is Will Smith in it? No. Is he in the original? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

It I mean, I d maybe it wasn't 2021, but whatever it was, it was 20 years after the original. I just remember this. Because like I I love Independence Day. Yeah. It's so s it's so fun. It it r I don't know, it it it really opened my eyes about how all war would go away if we just had a common enemy. Because like, yeah, humans just need a shared thing to kill. But then the sequel comes out, and in one of the first parts of the movie, someone's like, Yeah, so uh Sw Will Smith died in a training accident. Um, anyways, and I'm like, okay, I see what they're doing here. He's gonna he's the he's gonna be like out for the first you know act or two of the movie and then come in to save the day at the end.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Because he's like undercover or something, because the way they said it was such a hand wave, like they they they didn't even believe it.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

And then the credits roll, and I'm like, wait a minute, where's where's Will Smith? And he's just not in the movie at all.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

He has nothing to do with it.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

And that's like a I think a movie where he is the movie, right? Uh it's like Term not Terminator, it's like uh Yeah, he's Arnold Schwarzenegger in Terminator. But what's the other one I'm thinking of with uh Bruce Willis?

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Diehard.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

It's like diehard, like you watch it for him.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Uh yes and no. Like, you know, you still have Jeff Goldblum.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

And so, like, you know, that's that's why Independence Day 2 got made. Uh, because you know, he's he's he's still there. Sure. But yeah, it this really seems like you take out Jeff Goldblum, and this would have been a direct to s movie direct to video sequel.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Sure. So there's something else I want to talk about very briefly, which isn't really a sequel, but it's worth mentioning. Anthology style franchises. So these are films that allowed filmmakers to tell completely different stories while still benefiting from audience familiarity with the original concept. So Amityville, Creepshow, VHS, Tales from the Crip style anthologies.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Halloween three Season of the Witch.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

No, that's not an anthology.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

No, but it's different than the original. Yeah, but there's not it's not even Michael Myers. It's just a town with hot haunted masks. I know.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

It's very upsetting.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

It's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

The streaming era has also changed how horror franchises have developed.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Silver Shamrock. Come on, sing along.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Studios increasingly view recognizable horror properties as long-term brands that can exist across films, TV, and spin-offs. So, Alan, we're gonna play a little game.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

In front of me, I have a list of the highest-grossing horror sequels of all time.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

There are uh ten of them here. Give me some guesses.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Scream two.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Nope.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Halloween two.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

And I will say some of these are are not direct sequels, but most of them are. Um no, but Halloween from 2018 is on here at 255 million.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Oh, uh. That's actually the 10th. So it's not number twos of everything.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

No.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

How many number twos am I guessing?

SPEAKER_00 41:22

Four.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Alright. Speed two, cruise control.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

They're horror. Why don't I just tell you?

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Hannibal.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Yes, Hannibal's number two at 350 million.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Hellraiser from 2022.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

Why don't I tell you?

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

We're gonna go in reverse order.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

This is a bad, bad game.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

I'm sorry. Halloween from 2018 at 255 million comes in in 10th place. The Nun 2 from 2023 brought in 269 million. A Quiet Place Part 2 from 2021 brought in 297 million. Resident Evil Afterlife from 2010, 300 million. What?

SPEAKER_01 41:57

Really?

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Annabelle Creation from 2017, 307 million.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Oh, frickin' Annabelle.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Resident Evil, the final chapter from 2017, 314 million.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Those movies are just like printing money, my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

The Conjuring Two from 2016, 323 million. Alien Romulus from 2024, 351 million. And then the top two, Hannibal from 2001,

The Highest Grossing Horror Sequels

SPEAKER_00 42:21

350 million, and in the very first place, at a whopping 473 million dollars from 2019.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Avatar two.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

It chapter two. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Uh I will take partial credit for the revenue of Alien Romulus, as I did work on promotions for that movie.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Well, we did also go see it.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

We did also go see it. So we we double-dipped. We double-dipped.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Double contributed. But success can be defined in different ways. Halloween from 2018 is arguably the most important horror sequel financially because the budget, because even though it came in at number 10, the budget was only 10 million. So it brought in more than 25 times its budget. It's the highest-grossing film in the Halloween franchise, and as we discussed, helped solidify the modern legacy sequel boom. And if you adjust for inflation, though, some older sequels become very important. So adjusted for inflation. These are six like real sequels, right? Jaws 2, Psycho 2, Halloween 2, Aliens, Fred the 13th Part 3, and Nightmare on Elm Street Part 3 are kind of like the biggest like.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

You mean Nightmare on Elm Street Part 3, Dream Warriors?

SPEAKER_00 43:32

I do, from 1987. Many of these earned far less in raw dollars than modern films, but sold enormous numbers of tickets relative to their era. Raw dollars. More than any other genre, horror allows sequels to reinvent themselves. A sequel can be a continuation, a prequel, a reboot, a comedy, an action film, an anthology, or an entirely new interpretation of the same fear. The monster can change, the rules can change, and even the tone can and often will change. But the audience returns because the core fear remains familiar. The history of horror sequels is ultimately the history of horror. From Bride of Frankenstein to Megan, horror has repeatedly demonstrated an unusual ability to reinvent itself through continuation. The best sequels don't simply resurrect a killer, they deepen mythology, expand worlds, challenge audience expectations, or reveal something new. And perhaps that's why horror franchises continue to thrive. After all, every monster story ends with a question: What if the monster comes back? Or is the monster really dead?

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Find out next time.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

So there's a tile wave coming your way, folks.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

What's that?

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Alan's invention for many years ago, the scary scuffle.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Oh, I love the scary scuffle.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Which is a round robin style tournament to the death of Phyllis.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

It's not a round robin.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

It is a March Madness style tournament.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

It is a one-on-one single elimination bracket.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Thank you. Great. This time for sequels. We will be joined next week by two friends of the pod, and we will debate to the death until we come up with the ultimate horror sequel villain.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Yeah. I'm very excited.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

We're we I think we did the first scary scuffle four or five years ago, so we're long overdue. There is also a bracket that exists with the first round filled in so you can fill in the rest of the bracket, place your bets, and if anybody, the person who comes closest, will get a lunatics prize pack, which is my favorite thing to mail out. If you're part of our Discord or on Patreon or on social media, you can get access to a bracket, fill it in, email it to films about lunatics at gmail.com by August 10th, I believe, but that that date will be posted. And get it to us before the next episode comes out, essentially. And uh you'll be in the running. It's gonna be a fun, good time.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

What will they win?

SPEAKER_00 45:56

You will win a very fancy Lunatics prize pack.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Wow. Yeah, I didn't expect me to prize. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Yeah, no, you do. And it's got some really cool lunatics

Scary Scuffle Bracket And Prize Pack

SPEAKER_00 46:06

merch, some cool horror history stuff, some ghost stuff, and also And our cat. No, some uh unopened collectible trading card packs from some very cool franchises that we're talking about right now. So we should leave it there.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Very exciting.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Yes, very exciting. So get your brackets in. And uh yeah, this is uh Scary Scuffle, the sequel. As always, thank you all so much for being here. Stay spooky, stay safe. We'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye.