Ep.44 Black & White vs Colour

Episode Overview:

Kevin Ahronson and Kelly Perrin go head-to-head in a lively (and slightly caffeinated) debate about black-and-white versus colour photography. From the evocative power of monochrome to the vibrant allure of colour, the duo explores where each shines—and where it might falter. Expect playful banter, surprising insights, and even a discussion about the transformative powers of marshmallows and sunglasses.

Key Moments & Highlights

1.The Great S’mores Debate

•Before we even get to photography, Kevin learns about the art of s’mores. Kelly shares her love for toasted marshmallows, and Kevin wonders if he’s missed a key life experience.

•Pro tip: Fire, marshmallows, and chocolate biscuits are essential ingredients.

2.The Joys of Black-and-White Photography

•Kevin argues that black and white can make a photo feel more “serious,” “arty,” and emotionally powerful.

•He shares how shooting in monochrome helps you focus on contrasts, patterns, and textures, making you a stronger photographer.

•Top Tip: Wear sunglasses to help spot great black-and-white compositions!

3.The Case for Colour

•Kelly champions vibrant hues, noting that colour brings energy and life to her favourite shots.

•She highlights how autumn leaves, vibrant wildlife, and bold sunsets feel incomplete without their natural colour palette.

•Best Quote: “I want the robin’s red chest to scream at me. Black and white can’t scream!”

4.Where They Agree (Sort of)

•Black and white: Great for moody portraits, dramatic street photography, and fixing tricky lighting scenarios.

•Colour: Perfect for wildlife, landscapes, and capturing the full vibrancy of life.

•Both: Photography’s true beauty lies in its versatility—no need to pick one!

5.The Creative Process

•Kevin reveals his preference for abstract, high-contrast black-and-white shots that lean into the extremes of light and shadow.

•Kelly shares her love for capturing emotions in colour and the satisfaction of creating images that feel alive.

6.Wildlife Photography Showdown

•Kelly: “Wildlife is all about the colour—kingfishers are fast, but their blue feathers are worth the effort!”

•Kevin: “Wildlife can be abstract and artistic too. It’s not about the bird; it’s about the photograph!”

Final Thoughts:

•Kevin: “If I had to choose, I’d pick black and white for its drama and depth.”

•Kelly: “For me, it’s colour all the way—life’s too vibrant not to capture it!”

•Both: “Good thing we don’t have to pick!”

Got a Photography Question?

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Looking for courses

Want to find out about my live, in-person workshops, check out the Hampshire School of Photography website:

https://www.hampshirephotoschool.com

Hampshire Photography Network

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https://www.facebook.com/groups/1222685165227144

Contact me

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Transcript

 Hi, my name is Kevin Ahronson from Hampshire School of Photography and welcome to TOG Talk.  

Well, we're back again

We are, although thankfully for all of our listeners, it's daytime and we're not drinking this time. 

No, you're right. Well, we are drinking coffee. We are. That doesn't count, does it? 

I'm drinking hot chocolate. 

Do you have marshmallows in it? 

 No. 

Oh, I love marshmallows. 

I'm not a child.

I love marshmallows in my hot chocolate. 

No, but we did have s'mores  last night. 

Some what?

S'mores. 

Spell that?  

S.M.O.R.E. Smores. 

What's smores? 

What do you mean... What is smores? 

I think you said 'smalls' at first. 

Smores! 

I have no idea what smores is or are. 

All right. You need you, you and Linda. Yeah. You need to come round.

Yeah. A glass of wine. 

Yeah. We go in 

the garden. 

Yeah, 

we like the fire. 

Yeah, 

we roast marshmallows. 

Yeah. Done that. 

And then we shove them in between. Yeah. Chocolate, digestive biscuits and that. My friend... is a smore. 

That's a smore. 

Yeah. 

So you've said the magic word.  The two magic words actually, well three, marshmallows cooked.

Yeah.  So that's a smore. 

Do you realise there will probably be thousands of people listening to this who have never toasted marshmallows? And toasted marshmallows are unbelievable, aren't they? They are the best. But they're even better when they're in between chocolate digestives. Oh yeah, I'll go with that.

We're really not on topic, are we? Shall we, um? Shall we make, this is a bit like when we chatted  slightly tipsy last time. Let's go back to, um. Would you care to explain to our listeners where we're going with this?  

Would I?  We are going to have a discussion  about the creative, artistic, anything you like, differences between black and white photography and colour photography.

Would you like to give us a brief history first on photography? 

Well, first of all, there was black and white, and then we went into colour.  

We did. When was that?  

Originally? Well, the very first was 1861.  

I'm very impressed.  When I think about photography,  I naturally think about it in colour.  Which is interesting. 

For the much older generation, like yourself, do you think of it as black and white? 

Anybody who thinks they might be able to do this job just as well as Kelly should get in contact via,  um,  It's a big subject, you know, the debate with black and white versus colour, and It's inside the Facebook group, and in case you don't know, and you're not a member, you should be joining the Facebook group Hampshire Photography Network.

You don't need to live in Hampshire, although some of the conversation is discussing Hampshire related photography elements. But it's a Facebook group we started a year ago, or just over a year ago. We've got about a thousand people just over in there and everybody who's in it is an amateur so we don't allow pros or semi pros in there.

And we've had this discussion in the group  a few times about black and white versus colour and people will often post the same photograph in colour ask what people prefer.  And it's never conclusive. There are strong arguments for both. And it kind of depends on the subject matter and how well it's been edited and so on and so forth.

But there are  I remember posting a question  several weeks ago, possibly a few months,  two or three months, four months, which asked people if they had to make a decision,  if for the rest of their life they could only shoot in one, either color or black and white, what would they pick?  And even that wasn't conclusive.

People were, you know, it was polarized really.  You're a color person, aren't you? 

I love both.  I love both. Um, I think there's a place for both. If you had asked me that question, I think my natural instinct would be, I would shoot color.  Um, just because I love vibrant pictures. I would take vibrant color, um,  over like black and white contrast. 

But I love black and white as well. I think black and white captures an emotion in a child's face, for example, that colour wouldn't necessarily, like, necessarily capture. 

Yeah. 

What about you? 

Well, I did vote on my preference. 

Mm. 

And it  wasn't an easy choice. I mean, faced with those options, you could only shoot in colour for the rest of your life, or you could only shoot in black and white. 

And I looked at my pictures that I've done over the years, and, you know, there's an awful lot in colour.  But the ones which really excite me are the black and white ones.  And it's true, I shot in black and white for decades.  So, uh, right from the 60s, so we'll ignore the 60s, so 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s, you know, four decades. 

Is that right? 70s? 80s? 90s? Yeah, four decades, three and a half decades, three and a half decades, three and a half, and like 35 years shooting in black and white. Although back in the day of film, I did shoot colour, I shot transparencies because you were allowed to do that as a serious photographer. That's just like what I was.

Yeah.  Colour brings a whole different range of dimensions to the shot but black and white. This isn't true, it's just a perception I think that we all have. Black and white is so much more serious, so much more arty. 

That's interesting you went for serious. I was gonna, I was gonna slot the word romantic in there.

Oh yeah there is some of that I agree with you yeah and of course you can't take equally serious shots in any format but there's,  you kind of feel that if someone's taking it in black and white and they're serious about their photography that perhaps that's. what I meant because black and white is and can be incredibly atmospheric and emotive and emotional particularly if it's shot in the in a way which takes you back to those you look at the image and you're drawn back in time to the 60s or 1950s and 40s.

Um, And of course, it's like watching an old black and white film. It kind of feels like it's a good film because it's in black and white. Yeah. You know, 

um. Do you think perhaps black and white photography will fade out as, as photography moves through the generations? You know, as younger photographers are coming up, let's be honest, most young photographers find their love of photography through an iPhone. 

So I don't think many of them  would think Oh, I'll switch the iPhone to black and white while I take this photo. I mean, they might do,  but it'll be interesting to see how it progresses over the next 20 years. I 

think in every generation, whether you're talking youngsters and by youngsters, we're talking probably people in the late teens through to early thirties.

Um, this, Always a mix, uh, and I do see some of them shooting in black and white, but I would say primarily they seem to be a color audience.  If you look at some of the leading exponents, you look at some of the really active photographers of that age range, black and white is, it is prevalent. Obviously having shot for at least 35 years in black and white with some color in between. 

There's that thing which I've mentioned on this podcast. On the previous episode,  possibly more than once, but it doesn't do, it doesn't do any harm to mention it again because people would have missed it. And I've grown up in the generation who are used to looking at a scene and perceiving it in black and white.

Apologies for those who've heard me say this before, but it is true. I can go with my camera and I can see shots  so much easier than.  a more modern photographer because I'm used to searching for those elements which work well in a black and white image and those elements are areas of extreme contrast between highlights and shadows and repetitive patterns  and textures  and there is a school of thought which suggests that if you can develop a good style of shooting in black and white It will make your color imagery so much better  because there's a there's a kind of discipline that comes from shooting black and white and that you're able to spot form and shape and shadow and highlight and pattern and texture in a way that often gets lost in a black in a color image.

So it's almost as if you should. Start off in black and white as like a training ground so that you develop those skills and then you can move into color  at a massive advantage 

And when you say start off in black and white, do you mean actually shoot through the camera in black and white? 

Yeah, well, of course, as you know, there are two ways to get a black and white image which are  

Well, I would say through the camera, or you can do it afterwards in, in post editing.

Indeed, yeah, yeah. And if you're shooting with a digital camera, easier with a mirrorless camera, because you can shoot in black and white. So when you look through the viewfinder, you see a black and white image. And that, That's so helpful, because that's a bit like having my eyesight for the past 30, you know, those 35 years, it's, you're, you're seeing in advance what the image is like, like in black and white, and it's giving you  A real advantage to preview the shot before you take it.

And we've not had that technology until recent years. Beforehand, even with a DSLR, you take it and then look at the back screen. And you can take it in black and white even on a DSLR. It's recorded as a JPEG. Um, you can see what the pictures you've taken, but you couldn't preview it unless you use the back screen.

to preview the shot, which isn't always that convenient. But with mirrorless, it's a piece of cake.  And being able to preview the shot in black and white, Oh my god, what a massive advantage that is, because you can see those strong differences and the contrast between the  colours and the highlights and the shadows, not necessarily the colours.

I was about to go on and say, of course, with some cameras, and I know you can do this with my Fuji cameras, and I have done it, they've had this possible for quite of good few years  with fuji if you shoot in black and white and because they've got these film simulations you can choose what black and white to shoot with you can also shoot with electronically added filters now back in the day with film  If you were shooting black and white, you could put fill, uh, you could put filters over the front of the lens, red, yellow, and green and so on, and they transformed the image spectacularly.

So you put a red one on that turns anything blue, really dark. So skies were gold, seriously dark, and it would be awesome. Well, you can do that digitally on a, on a, a Fuji, quite possibly. Other makes, don't know. But because it means you can add those filters at the time of looking through the viewfinder when you look through the viewfinder and you see those images is,  oh my God, you know, yeah, it's one of those.

I've got to sit back and just put a wet fan on the back of my neck kind of thing. The preview in the viewfinder is is so much. It's so much easier to see a shot with that preview going on.  What am I saying? I'm saying.  That being able to preview the shot through the viewfinder in black and white, even if in the end you wanted a color version,  means you are looking at elements in the shot that you might normally miss because you're looking in black and white.

So I can do it without looking through the viewfinder.  Today's generation are able to do it by turning black and white on in the viewfinder. Or you can do the other alternative.  Now to my knowledge what I'm about to tell you I've never heard anybody else teach.  Okay. I've taught it at a couple of my workshops and people have gone AHHHHH! 

Hit me.  Okay. I discovered this quite by accident a few years ago and I'm out with my camera and I'm shooting actually in black and white. But I'm walking around and I'm, it's a lovely hot sunny day and I'm with my wife and it's, you know, it's so hot we're, well, summer clothes, sunglasses, that kind of thing. 

And if I'm wearing sunglasses and she isn't,  I'll say, wow, look at that scene, that would make a great photo. And she'll say, what?  If you're wearing sunglasses,  Sunglasses seem to accentuate the contrast between the bright bits and the dark bits of the scene.  And when you look at a scene, it's, wow, look at that, take the glasses off and, yeah, it's alright.

Yeah. You know, the meh moment, M E H.  Put the sunglasses back on, wow, look at that. And consequently, I've taught on black and white workshops, so if you want to go out and spot shots, wear sunglasses.  It really works well. I love that. Seriously. Well 

yeah, it's like having your own little filter, isn't it? It is.

Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah. If we want to switch our camera to black and white  and start shooting black and white,  what are the technical differences that we need to consider? When we're taking that image, 

well, of course, if you turn your camera to black and white, and you're shooting in raw, when you load it onto your computer, there's going to be in color, it'll go back to color.

So you do need JPEG switched on as well, or just shooting JPEG. But in terms of creating a final image in post processing, you're much better off doing that in raw, because you've got more data coming through on that image file, giving you more options to change things to. where you want. So  if you specifically wanted to shoot  black and white, I would shoot on most cameras raw and JPEG to give you the best options unless you had a Leica because Leica's got two or three models which shoot in which will only shoot in black and white.

Right. And Um, there was a rumor of a new Ricoh coming out next year, I think it's called a GR4, I think it is, which may have a black and white only model version, so there's a color version or you can pure black and white and the advantage of having cameras which only shoot in black and white  is that there's no, um, there's no filter array built over your sensor to filter out for the three colors.

And with that array missing, the pixels produce a more detailed, more contrast tonal rich image. So pictures taken with a black and white only camera are vastly superior to anything that could be shot with a normal camera switched to black and white. And I'd love a camera that did that. I would love to shoot with a camera that only ever shot.

Black and white.  

My next question. Did I answer that one sufficiently? You did. Yes. I was  satisfied. Thank you. I'm happy when you're satisfied.  Everybody is and much nicer. So let's talk about genres and where black and white has a very, uh,  a very established, established position and, and where it doesn't.

So I'm going to give you my kind of general view on that is if you look at wedding photography,  there's definitely a place for both. Um, if you look at a portrait, there's a place for both.  Let's talk about wildlife for a second.  I'm not sure how I feel about black and white  wildlife photography.  

Yes, and that's because I think primarily that's what you tend to see everywhere.

But I can tell you I've got black and white wildlife. I've shot stuff. Not primarily, not initially. I've shot it in colour and converted it to black and white because, um, I'm the sort of,  Because photographers come in different types. The type of photographer I am, I'm motivated by light.  I'm motivated by the compositional element I see in front of me where light plays a really big role.

So it's, it's a kind of cacophony of black and whiteness, yeah, um, spectacular mixture of black and white tones, strong tones, both at the dark end and the light end, producing a visual feast.  And that's what I like. Those are the photographs that rock.  rock my boat, float my boat, whatever the expression is. 

If I had to pick a single type of photography, which always  attracts me and makes me salivate,  it's those images where there's almost an abstract element of incredibly dark bits and incredibly white bits. And so consequently, wildlife.  For me,  it can be quite boring. I find the traditional shot of let's get a bird on a branch and blur out the background.

Whilst I can understand the  The, the photographer who took it being excited that they got the shot, because there's a skill element, there's a field craft element, of getting close to the bird so you can get the shot. I don't find those shots interesting. The shots I find interesting on wildlife are more abstract, more about imagery rather than, that's the bird.

I've worked with a number of my images, and perhaps I ought to try and post these somewhere, where. It's more of a clearly creative image rather than just a wildlife image. So wildlife just happens to be in it. Here we go. So wildlife just happens to be the subject, but it's actually not a wildlife shot.

It might be a close up of a bird or a,  I've never photographed an elephant, but you get the idea. It could be a bird or a mammal or a lizard or whatever, a fish or a fly, but it's a shot which is a photograph first. and wildlife second. Whereas most wildlife photographers are into wildlife first and photography second.

Yes. 

Has that explained it? Does that make more sense? 

Yeah, it does. Um, I'm going to just jump in for all the wildlife photographers. Um, and I totally get what you're saying.  But I feel slightly differently when it comes to wildlife photography, because I still love a good photo,  but if I'm looking at wildlife in a photo, for me, again, it's that vibrant colour that I love.

It's an opportunity to see a close up of wildlife. of a Kingfisher, and the beautiful blue, you know, and the robin.  I want to see really vibrant red chest on that robin. I don't just want to know it's a robin. So for me,  black and white, if I'm looking specifically at wildlife photography, I want it to be an opportunity to see the colour of the wildlife, as opposed to that's a cool picture, because I feel like you could just stick a statue.

of a robin down and get your creative shot. But if it's actually a robin or a kingfisher, then for me, the passion is seeing the color. Because  I feel like you,  well, kingfishers, for example, they're so fricking fast, you wouldn't, you wouldn't see the detail. So Wildlife photography, for me, has got to be in colour.

Mm. And I've often considered this in my mind, um, and I would say to myself, because I went through quite a prolonged period back in the early to mid 2000s of photographing wildlife, and going out to wildlife reserves and having long lenses, and I bought all the camouflage gear, I still got it, and a portable hide, and I'd spend hours and hours and hours photographing wildlife. 

And when I began to realise  What separated me from the average wildlife photographer? I was wrestling with the question.  I know we've gone off a tangent, but I still think it's interesting.  Should a photographer be more interested in the creative element or should they be more interested in the wildlife?

And I realized there there are two extremes and people fall somewhere in between those and I am more towards the  picture. element. It's the photography that does it for me. It didn't used to be when I started. It was the wildlife. But as I changed, my, my passion for photographing wildlife increased. It wasn't for the wildlife.

It was for the photograph. It was for the end result. It was for the imagery that, and whether it was color or black and white, most of them were color, I'll be honest. I was asking myself this basic question, I  Why am I taking this? Am I taking it because I like the wildlife? Or because I like the photography now some people like wildlife photography because they like the fact they're not having to deal with people  

I'm serious because and listen, I would happily not have to deal with people I 

mean people are pain in the butt and you know  Street photography, portrait photography, for some people, that is just the worst thing ever.

They don't want to deal with people, people are a nightmare. Animals on the other hand, fantastic, you get to go out for the day, it's a bit like fishing. Angling is the single most act biggest, biggest, biggest Participant sport in the UK, and you can understand why, because you go out for the day with a rod in the middle of the countryside, lovely quiet day, sitting in the sun, drinking your beer, eating your Marmite sandwich, it's a fantastic experience. 

And wildlife photography can be like that. It's a wonderful zen experience. But for me My passion was always photography. So if I look in hindsight, for me, it's the photography which is more important. Hasn't answered your question. I know this is another tangent, but I think some tangents are worth exploring.

They deal with a subject which people rarely debate.  Hi everyone. It's Kevin Aaronson. And I want to tell you about some exciting changes I've made to the photography masterclass, my in person course, that's been helping photographers grow since 2019. Yep. This is an in person course in a classroom with me face to face.

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Dedicated to developing your photographer's eye. I retained the more popular modules on shooting landscapes, photographing people, and there's a new one on black and white photography.  This masterclass is more than just a course. It's a creative one year journey. You'll share with other passionate photographers growing together and forming lasting connections along the way.

Need more information? Visit camera. photography. com. Go to hsp. com, click on courses and select masterclass. I'll also provide a link in the show notes below. 

So let's bring it back on topic.  What's your favourite black and white  

photo you've ever taken? Do you know how much of a picture I took of a baby pigeon?  Um, oh god, favourite black and white picture. 

Okay, shall I start?  Because I have one. And  I  I don't know if we've spoken before about during those dreaded COVID years, I went out a lot with my camera and sort of just dabbled and had some time to myself doing a bit of landscape. 

Most of my landscape stuff is all colour because again, I love the vibrancy. I love the autumn colours. I mean, this is the perfect time of year for me with all the different colour leaves and things like that. But actually, my favourite black and white  is on Haylin Island. And there's like an old  I guess at some point it would have been a pier of some sort, and it juts out into the sea, and, um, the contrast in the black and white image, it's your sort of classic pier disappearing into the centre of the photo.

I used a slow shutter speed, so the water's moving.  really misty and atmospheric and the contrast of the dark wood against the kind of light water. And it was a white sky, you know, quite cloudy. So I got some nice atmosphere as the clouds were moving. And that's my favorite black and white picture because it represents So much of how I was feeling at that time, just  kind of a little bit moody  on my own Kind of floating in the middle of nowhere. 

I can't imagine you floaty. No 

So, yeah, so my favourite is actually a landscape picture.  

Um, I, uh, went up to London at the beginning of this summer.  Sorry, 

did we have a summer?  You seem to be confused with a different year.  

Well, date wise summer, not experience wise summer, but it was actually a bright day.  And I shot in black and white. 

I came back with a series of images, which,  um, in hindsight now were some of my  most favorite work ever.  And they are strange things, parts of cars and a car showroom. And when I say cars, these were super cars. Mm. You know, like multiple hundreds of thousand pounds. I happened to be near one of those car showrooms in Green Park,  uh, and I took some stuff, um, over by the Thames.

Um.  And I'm thinking of some images now. I mean, there was one particular one which caught the roof of the building which has got, I believe, the,  oh,  one of the theatres on the riverside, I can't think of what it's called.  National Theatre, is it? 

Is 

it National Theatre? Yeah. So it's got sort of like a spiky roof.

And behind it I had the, um, eye in the sky thing.  London Eye. London Eye, yeah. Yeah.  And I shot with a polarizing filter, so the sky is really dark.  The picture is very angular,  very  abstract.  The spiky bits of the roof of the theater were incredibly bright, but um, they weren't blown out, they're just super, super white, and then you've got these really big, dark, bright,  polarized blue which were blue gone almost black and  I'll have to post it somewhere. 

That comes to mind, um, and  If it was you or someone asked me, within the last few months, what sort of photography, if I could only do one sort of, what would it be, one type of photography? And it would be these kind of abstract street images where in black and white I can manipulate the shadows and the highlights to produce intense tones.

One particular British photographer has inspired me this last year more than any other photographer I've come across. A guy called Alan Shaler, and his black and white imagery is spectacular. because of these rich blacks and these strong highlights.  And I find myself very influenced by his style, but I'd been doing stuff like that for decades, if I'm honest, but he helped me focus. 

He helped me focus my mind to realize actually that's what I like to do.  So, um, in terms of a single image, I can't give it to you, but of a type of image, it would be that. abstract street and people don't have to be in the shot. They can be in the shot. It could be a buildings or parts of buildings and parts of traffic,  subjects, objects, absolutely anything that's out there in the real world.

And it could be Including all of it, part of it, some of it's blurred, shallow depth of field, wide depth of field, doesn't really matter. It's all about  focusing in on the extreme end of the tonal range between the extreme blacks and the extreme whites.  

So let's just touch on the practical and business side of black and white photography.

So when you're working with clients, do you find that they gravitate more towards colour or do they ask for black and white images? A 

bit of both. The majority is going for colour, I'll be honest with you. But particularly when I'm shooting, um, Wedding stuff, or if I'm capturing special events. So it's quite often that I'll be invited to go and photograph something like a 40th or 50th wedding anniversary, or a birthday party, or an engagement event.

And they all know in advance that I shoot a lot of black and white, and it's in my contract that I have the right to choose, because of my creative skills, what shots work better in what.  So, I have the responsibility of saying that shot looks better in colour, but that one looks better in black and white.

Okay, and have you ever had to convince a client? What about black and white? Yeah.  

Oh, it's possible. I've known come to mind. 

Because I've had a client before.  In fact, I feel like I've had a few clients over the years that have said to me, if I've given them colour pictures, and they've said to me, Oh, can you put this one in black and white?

Um, or the worst is when they say, I'm going to change this to black and white. And I go, no, no, no, that's fine. I'll do that for you.  Because there's nothing worse than providing photos to a client to then have your client put Instagram filters on top of them.  But that's a whole different podcast episode.

But I don't think I've ever,  I don't think there's a time where I've given a client a black and white photo and they've asked for it to be in colour.  

They probably have preconceptions in their mind. They knew I'd taken a shot and they'd already thought. Oh, I'm looking forward to that shot. And when it arrives in black and white, they think, ah, actually I wasn't, I was expecting that to be in color because sometimes there are practical reasons as well why you might want to convert something to black and white, apart from the aesthetic and the, and the, the creative element, it might be that you're shooting somebody indoors.

Let's take a scenario. You're shooting someone indoors and they're by a window. Now from a camera's perspective, the light that comes in from the outside tends to be relatively blue.  They might be standing near a tungsten light bulb, or an LED, which is a soft, warm color that's been designed to, you know, replicate the kind of light that comes from a tungsten bulb.

So you've got this warm, orangey red. And then, they might be standing in a room which has got fluorescents, which are green. So you've got these three different colors sitting with someone, all from different angles, and they look horrible. If you convert to black and white,  in a snapshot, you've 

And, um, over the years, that's happened quite a lot of times when I've had to shoot weddings in unpleasant indoor environments where they just haven't planned well for where the photographs are going to be taken.  

And what about  fixing mishaps? 

How do you mean? 

So, uh, I could be shooting, um, low light scenarios and  they just don't look right in colour.

The pictures can be grainy, um, and on occasion I've switched it to black and white.  And it just,  the grain becomes part of the atmosphere. Yeah. 

I put the grain in on purpose, I thought it added to the shot. 

Yes. Yeah, it's definitely a helpful tool. 

I knew some, a guy some years ago, probably about 15 years ago, who, uh, he was really into street photography, that's really all he did.

And he was quite competent and he did a good job. But he shot everything. Back in the day, 15 years ago, on ISO 6400, very grainy,  and he did it because he liked that gritty, grainy look, and of course there are particular styles of street photography where that grainy, 

you 

know, that kind of urban grit, you know, say you did a project, um, where you were photographing tattooists, or drug addicts, or, you know, you know what I'm talking about, that kind of backstreet scene, and they work really well,  And, you know, if you've shot it in an ISO which is not particularly high, then you can always put it back in afterwards to increase the grain, to add to that shot, to give it the  to replace the authenticity that your camera's taken out because the camera's taken too good a shot.

Mm. Um  

I'm going to stop you there, Kevin, because you've got a really quizzical look on your face. What are you thinking about? 

I was just thinking about some of the struggles that the early proponents of colour photography had. You know, when black and white was in its early days, it very quickly become Became accepted as standard, people didn't question black and white, it stayed in black and white for two or three decades before color really started having an impact.

Um, actually longer than that, but in reality, in terms of  common active,  um, film usage,  because particularly since, uh, 35 millimeter film, which is where the SLRs came from, single lens reflex cameras. It came from, um, that really was around 1925, 1926, courtesy of Leica.  So from then onwards, black and white was the common.

And then 1935, we've got Kodak bringing out Kodachrome, and colour started creeping into the scene. But it was used by the general person, the general mum and dad. And it was, it was  It was not considered something which serious photographers would even consider.  And, um, any attempt to take anything slightly bit arty or creative with the color film stock was frowned upon by the, the establishment, but there were some people who were starting to push boundaries.

Yeah, there was a guy called William Eggleston.  who, uh, who really kind of pioneered the color aspects. And he, he managed to get a massive photography exhibition back in 1976, which you believe  at the museum of modern art in the state. I think it's in New York. I think so, or Washington.  And it was a landmark and absolute landmark because until that point really color was not considered. 

Pucca. It was, it was, it was a toy thing.  If you were serious, you shot black and white. But what he did in that exhibition was he produced images, which was so stunning of ordinary things around the house, out in the street, car lots, that kind of stuff. But the, the. The process he used for to produce the color produced intense colors, he did more to advance  the use of color as a creative format for photography than any other photographer.

It was, it was a seminal moment and the images in there were every bit as creative and interesting as all the black and white stuff that preceded it. And then you had people like Saul Leiter, who's one of my favourite photographers. He died, um, 2013. He was a New Yorkan. New Yorkan? Is it York? Or New Yorker?

New Yorker. He was a New Yorker, yes. Not a nun. No. No. No. Yeah.  And he lived in the same flat. I can't remember exactly. It was either 50 or 60 years in one particular address in New York. And every day for the whole of his life, he walked around the block taking photographs in the same, on the same streets. 

And he produced some amazing stuff, but it's kind of abstracted. So you could see why it might appeal to me.  But he was one of the most important names who worked alongside and influenced by William Eccleston  because he was producing stuff that never before was colour ever used for. And he was highly criticised for it for years and years and years.

And it really wasn't until after he died that  His fame had grown so much is you've got to get his book. I could lend you mine, of course  But I won't  Yeah, lovely got there's actually a documentary about him on Netflix or Amazon Really nuts guy. Absolute nutter. Classic eccentric. Aren't all photographers absolute nutters?

Speak for yourself darling. So Saul Leiter. Absolutely brilliant. And then you've got to look up the work of William Eggleston. The two of them together truly, uh, truly changed the, the, the direction and the  Uh, I want to say the marketplace, it's not the word, they truly changed the,  the scene, I guess, for people's,  uh, willingness to accept colour as a genuine form of artistic form, a format of artistic creation. 

It sounds to me like  we've, um, we're coming towards the end. I think so.  Have you, in your own mind's eye, have you, How do your opinions change or has anything opened up your mind to anything new? Um,  not really. You stay the same, same old bigoted  Color only black and white is for heathens. Yeah. I am not color only.

Oh,  I believe at the beginning of this podcast. I said I have a great love of both black and white and color. 

I just want the audience to see this and I did get a reaction.  

No, I still have a great love of both.  I have probably learned a bit more about where a lot of your inspiration comes from  which is interesting. 

And I do get it. I do get it. Um, of course, but I'm still a massive fan of, of colour. 

Yeah, and I don't want anyone to think that I'm not. Because I would say, unless I'm out on the street, I'm shooting in colour pretty much all the time.  You know, 100 percent of the time, to be frank, I've been doing a lot of photography on the Basingstoke Canal the past few months. 

And whilst I did post one black and white image from then, the majority, 99. 9 percent is colour.  And particularly autumn, autumn, I mean, you would not want to shoot autumn in black and white.  That's ridiculous. Landscape lends itself to colour, but then you've got Ansel Adams, of course, which shot everything in black and white. 

There's no there's no right or wrong and you cannot say it should only you should only shoot black and white for street Or you should only shoot colorful landscape  

Mix it up. How many times have we said 

it's an art form and you can really do what you want  But it is an interesting debate, isn't it? If you had to pick, you'd pick colour.

If I had to pick, I'd pick black and white. 

That is right there what is so fantastic about photography. 

Yeah. Fortunately, neither of us had to pick. We can enjoy the benefits of both. Indeed.  

With that, I'm going to say from me, it's goodbye.
And it's a goodbye from me.  

Bye!