Is Reincarnation Real or Do We Merge With The One?- Kelvin Chin

This is my good friend Kelvin Chin's third appearance on Grief 2 Growth. I consider Kelvin to be one of the leading experts in the world on what we call the afterlife. He's also one of the world's experts on meditation.

This conversation covers some misconceptions about what happens to us when we die and why people might believe them. Kelvin clearly and concisely explains concepts. He uses logic and reason as well as emotion and experience. 

Kelvin Chin is an author and Life After Life Expert. His first book “Overcoming the Fear of Death: Through Each of the 4 Main Belief Systems,” is a nonreligious approach to overcoming the fear of death. And his new book, “Marcus Aurelius Updated: 21st Century Meditations On Living Life” is a collection of 67 essays ranging from Emotions, Life Principles, Meditation, and the Spiritual.

Kelvin is Executive Director & Founder of the “Turning Within” Meditation and Overcoming the Fear of Death Foundations, and is an internationally-recognized meditation teacher featured in Business Insider, Newsweek, and Kaiser Health News, and has taught meditation at West Point and in the U.S. Army, including on the DMZ in Korea. Kelvin has been meditating for 50 years, has taught meditation for 49 years to thousands of people in over 60 countries, and his past life memories reach back 6,000 years. He graduated from Dartmouth, Yale, and Boston College Law and has lived in 7 countries.

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Transcript

Brian Smith  0:00  
Close your eyes and imagine

Now, open your eyes, open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is grief to growth. And I am your host, Brian Smith.

Everybody this is Brian back with another episode of grief to growth and today I've got with my good friend Calvin chin and Calvin, I've known each other for a couple years. He's been on the program before I consider him to be one of the leading experts in the afterlife, and consciousness. I'm really excited to have this conversation with him today. So let me read your short introduction. And I'll bring Kelvin and we'll have a conversation. He's the author and afterlife. He's an author and afterlife expert I just said as first book was called overcoming the fear of death through each of the four main belief systems. It's a nonreligious approach to overcoming the fear of death. It's an excellent book, I can't recommend it highly enough. His new book is called Marcus Aurelius updated 21st century meditations on loving life. And that's a collection of 67 essays ranging from emotions, life principles, meditation and spiritual. Calvin has is the executive director and founder of the turning within meditation, and overcoming the fear of death foundations, and he's an internationally recognized meditation teacher featured in businessinsider, Newsweek, Kaiser Health News. And he's taught meditation at West Point. And in the US Army, including in the DMZ and Korea. He's been meditating for 50 years, he's taught meditation for 49 years to 1000s of people in over 60 countries. And his past life memories reached back 6000 years. He's a graduate of Dartmouth, Yale and Boston College, Boston College Law, and Calvin's lived in seven countries. So that like to welcome my friend Calvin chin. Great to be here with you, Brian, good to see you again. Yeah, Calvin, I'm really excited about having this conversation with you today to let everybody know, kind of kick this off. I talked about the afterlife and consciousness all the time and a couple of conversations the last couple of weeks that made me reach out to you. One was, I was talking with some people and I won't name names. But someone was saying that when we die, that this person had an afterlife experience that we remain as an individual, that the the analogy of going back and a water drop of water going back in the ocean is not really valid. Well, a couple other people in the same conference I was they were covered conversing about how we do merge into the oneness. So this is a, an area that we talked about. So I want to explore that with you today. And the other thing I want to talk to you about is this idea of reincarnation, and people remembering past lives and claiming that they've been, you know, certain other people. So

I just want to kick it off with that. So let's start talking about I guess, which one would be easier? Which one? Which one? Would you pick? 

Kelvin Chin  3:12  
It Well, either way. I mean, it's, well, let's talk about the merging with the one this thing because it's it I think it's pretty, in my mind anyway, it's pretty easily understood. And very, very easily misunderstood. I think that the

the whole notion of merging, and first of all, people get to understand what the words mean because people use English language sometimes sloppily. So merging actually means losing one's individuality into basically what I kind of you know, meet Brian I'm kind of informal guy, you know, into like, some cosmic soup or something. So people will use different words they'll say they merge with God, they merge with the oneness, they merge with the universe, they merge with source or they use different words and merge with the absolute. They'll use they'll use different words in different cultures and different religions and so forth. But though, but the but the bottom line, simple English, understanding and meaning of that, is that you lose your individuality. You don't know who you are anymore. That's what merging means. Well

I'll come back in a second to where I think it comes from. But But think about it, does that even make logical sense? Because I know you and I know many psychics and mediums and I've had some psychic mini psychic experiences in the last 50 years but you know, who are they are who are we communicating with on the other side if they've died and they've merged, they have no individuality. You know, any psychic you hear who may say or a medium who you may say, Oh, we merged with the oneness. They don't understand the English meaning of merging because

well, we'll just talk about this lifetime first, okay. So this lifetime because everything else before that is also in

As they themselves are communicating with who they're not communicating with some inanimate cosmic soup oneness, which is really what merging means. So it's sometimes it's a simple misunderstanding, if a psychic says that or a medium says that they really don't understand what merging means. And okay, so it's a very easy thing to correct. Merging means no individuality. So where does it come from? I think it comes from the very genuine real experience when people have indeed, there's a couple of possible sources of this, I think, first of all, this merging idea can correctly accurately be called connectedness, I feel a connection with you, Brian, while we're doing this, it's this incredible connection that you and I have, that we have a friendship that's built over a number of years, and so forth. And we've had a number of conversations online, offline, and so forth. But but sometimes you'll meet somebody you have never physically biologically met in this lifetime. And there's a connection, there's something there. And sometimes you'll meet people who you you don't even know and really have never, you've been with them like two seconds. And there's a connection. There's all kinds of connections with that we can have with people, we might feel connected with people in Ukraine, for example, a connection, that's an energetic, kind of psychic or energetic connection, that does not mean that I have lost my individuality. And I have merged and lost who lost all knowingness of who I am feeling connected with people in Ukraine, and the suffering that they're going through, okay, but there's that connection, I haven't merged with them. Merging literally means you've lost your individuality. So what happens is when people have an incredible feeling of connection, if they have an n, d, and they go, Oh, my God, I've never been experiencing my mind as separate from my body. They've always been identified there their mind and they think their mind is their thoughts. For example, many people incorrectly think their mind is their thoughts, you're not your thoughts, and you're not your body, your mind is the experiencer of that. That's what we call consciousness, Soul spirit, I use simple English, call it mind, mind as in the vastness of our mind, as well as the more localized waking state making decision making part of our mind. That's all my whole mind is all of that. Well, if you don't have a regular familiarity with that, and you have an ND E, or you have a spiritually transformative experience, it doesn't have to be an MD and near death experience. It could be anything, you just all of a sudden, Whoa, you're you're huge. You feel connected with everything you feel as if you've merged the key words or ads if you haven't literally merged, because how could you tell people your experience afterwards? If you had lost who you were, you haven't lost? who you were, you retain that throughout the experience? It's just a different experience. It's like, wow, okay. That's simple. I think that's the simple

understanding about why and how it's understandable why somebody might incorrectly use the word merging when they have this incredible, genuine real experience of connection with all things inanimate and animate living nonliving. I mean, I have the experience. I've had that experience 1000 times in this lifetime. But I'm one, I'm still Kelvin. Shit, I haven't lost my individuality. Right?

Brian Smith  8:40  
I love that explanation. And thanks for sharing that. Because as I was an I discussed this with one of the people who were saying that we do merge, and they said, when they had this experience, that they were no longer themselves. And they were they were they? And I'm like, but then how could you be telling me about it? How did you experience because to me, merging equals annihilation, it means I no longer exist.

Kelvin Chin  9:02  
That's right. That's right. That's right. That's what that means you no longer exist. That's what merging means. So people use it in spiritual communities very, very loosely, and English language. And I'm not an word Nazi, you know, but in certain cases, it's really important to use correct English, or French or Russian or whatever language you're speaking, the meanings are important of our words, because otherwise, why are we communicating? And the other thing that that's important about these kinds of words that we're talking about, is because they very subtly affect us deep inside, and they may shift our belief systems, which then may shift our thinking will shift our behavior will shift our outer actions and it affects our life. So that's why there's certain words like merging and ideas like that, that I think really do need to be scrutinized and thought about and understood properly. Otherwise it can lead to suffering and and you know me, I'm the anti suffering guy.

Brian Smith  10:09  
Yeah. Well, I think that's what you and I are all about. It's we're about anti suffering, we're about ending this fear of death and overcoming the fear of death. And, and I think for someone like myself who I was, as a child had a great fear of death and great fear of all this stuff. And then I hear this idea of merging. I think, again, I think annihilation, I think this is the end of my existence. And I don't think that's what they really mean. Because it said, Well, you're not going to merge until you're ready. I'm like, well, when will I be ready to cease to exist? Because that's what you're saying?

Kelvin Chin  10:38  
Exactly. Exactly. We're never ready. My experience is to put anybody's you know, those are people going, Oh, my God. You know, people who are worried hearing this so far, my experience is that we don't merge my experience is that we are eternal souls, and we go on forever, that there is no beginning no end. Now, there may be a beginning of me being a human being, they may be VP, or even an animal, you know, before as a human being, you know, whatever. Depending on how you look at all this. There may be a beginning to me being on planet Earth, maybe I wasn't on planet Earth. So there may be beginnings, but not to my essential nature, which is what I refer to as my mind soul spirit consciousness. That's, that's it. That's the identifiable, energetic pattern that Kelvin Qin and I think Brian Smith has an energetic, identifiable, energetic pattern that's recognizable on this side and the other side or anywhere on any planet in the universe or universes. When the universe I mean, universe, the biggest, biggest thing, it's that's how I've defined universe. And and whether your energy is there here, well, I can recognize I'll be able to recognize it, because you have an identifiable energy pattern that, in my experience, in my logic tells me is eternal it. It's first law of thermodynamics, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. no beginning or end.

Brian Smith  12:09  
Yeah, and I think, you know, I like to when I hear someone say something, I am like, Okay, I think everybody is at least 10%. Right? And pretty much everything they say. And so I'm like, what is what is the truth in this, Where's this coming from what and, and that's what I'm trying to, that's what I'd like to get at with you. Because we're not saying that these people are just wrong, that there is there is some experience like that. And I have a good friend who had an NDA and several Indies. And we were talking about the idea of reincarnation, she's like, I'm not really sure whether I believe in it or not. But in my experience, I saw these beings, these spirits, and I think they were past lives, but I'm not sure because you're so close, that you feel like you're, you're merging you, you meet someone or you see someone and you immediately know everything about them. So you kind of feel like, there you

Kelvin Chin  12:58  
go. That's different, though. So once so when when you first like when I first started having its communication with other beings who I couldn't, there, you know, there have been physical, physical, biological beings, when they decided it started happening to me, as you know, in 1986, just spontaneously, I've never done a past life regressions or workshops on how to communicate with the other side or anything, it all is just as spontaneous with me. But it took me a while. It took me a good at least a year, it might have been a year and a half or two years for me to discern, for me to distinguish, like, is it? Am I making this up? By watching too many sci fi movies? That was Star Trek, you know, Captain Kirk, you know, it's like, what? Am I been influenced by all that? And am I making this stuff up? Or is that actually, not me? You know, what's me and what's not me. So this idea that this person who said this to you couldn't tell, and that's very normal. So the first thing I tell people is like, relax about it. It's important, but it's, it's a new experience, and you got to figure it out. But as long as you're kind of still paying attention and questioning, I think questioning is a really, really valuable tool, as opposed to blindly just following whatever, just questioning it and looking for other external reliable evidence that supports your interpretation of the experience. So back to your point about release 10%. Right. I think people are probably closer to 99%. Right, about what their they think their interpretation of their experience is. But whether it's objectively right is who you know, and then you kind of get into this conundrum of what's really absolutely right. And I, I write it in my afterlife classes that you've set in on sometimes, you know, the first time first session that I say is, if you're looking for absolute proof about anything about The afterlife, then or this life, even here, you're barking up the wrong tree, because because they're the only black and white proof that there are, are certain mathematical proofs where there is a right answer. And there's a wrong answer. And you know what? You as a former engineer, you know what I'm talking about what the mathematical proof is. That's those are provable. Everything else, you know, the Proof of Heaven. I mean, I know I like Eben Alexander, don't get me wrong. You know, he's a good guy. I've talked to them many times. But but but you know, I'm sure his, his publisher came up with the title because people want proof. They want absolute ironclad proof. And when you're talking experiences, whether it's on experiences on the side or the other side, look, you have people go to New York City, you can't get take a dozen people go to New York City, you're gonna come out with 50 different interpretations from those 12 people of what New York City is? Did they all go to New York City? Yes, objectively, we can say that they went? Does New York City objectively exist? Yes, we can all agree that it executives, yes. You listen to those 12 people's 50 different interpretations of what was like there, it notice that I'm saying 50, it's not 12 interpretations, it's going to be they're going to be each one's going to have multiple interpretations on different days you talk to them. It's no different on the other side, or with any of these experiences. So I tell my students, you look for two things. Two things to give you some will call it assurance. I don't want to call it proof. But some assurance that it's you're moving in the right direction, is is that in the right direction, meaning you're understanding pretty much what's going on? First thing is reliable evidence is the evidence you're drawing conclusions from from about this around, are you reliable? And then the second thing is, have you thought about it logically, rationally, clearly, or have jumped to conclusions all over the place? And now that requires a certain level of self awareness, and ability to build self critical, which not everybody has? Okay, because a lot of people get swept away with the emotional feeling. And then they shelve their rational mind. And to me, our mind is both rational and emotional. They are not you don't you can't separate them. Really. You really can't. They are

fluid. And so are we more swept away by our feeling part of the fluidity of our thinking, or can we have that not not put it aside, but have it along with the ability to discern? To me, that's what I tell I define clear thinking, I don't define clear thinking is only rational and forget about your feelings. I think that's experientially impossible. Yeah. The way the mind works, okay. Well, don't don't try to don't start out setting up an impossibility for you. So. So anyway, back reliability of evidence. And does it make sense?

Brian Smith  18:14  
Yeah. And I realized we kind of jumped into this because I was so excited by talking to you I want I want to establish for people who don't know you, who you are, who you are, and what your experience has been. So tell me about how you got to the point where you are?

Kelvin Chin  18:25  
Yeah. So

this lifetime. I guess I was born with something because my aunt's my mother sisters told me when I was a teenager, that I used to talk to invisible beings when I was two years old at my grandparents in my grandparents living room, and, and I had I had blocked it, because they had somewhat kind of shamed me and or made fun of me a little bit. You know, it's like, because remember, I remember when they told me this when I was a teenager, when I was in high school, I get pissed off. My first was pissed off at them, they'd like, and I will. And I realized, in retrospect, I was pissed off at them because they had kind of teased me about it. When I was two years old, and I had shell I have I had buried it. So that's a third party telling me that something that I had buried that I that I did me all every weekend for how long I did this for years or whatever went there at my grandparents house. Later when I was 19 years old, I learned to meditate. And that's really the thing that I proactively did myself. That started open doors up but it didn't open up doors. Well. It probably did. But I didn't realize that it was opening up spiritual doors for me because it Initially, but initially I learned because I was just stressed out, I was so highly anxious, I was just desperate. And that's why I started meditating. And I, a guy, meditation teacher was talking about scientific scientific research. And I was into science at the time, I was pre med at the time, and i Whoa, this is what research on what close your eyes in do what is. And so that hooked me. And then he started talking about anxiety and cortisol levels in the initial studies that they were doing in 1970. We were just starting to do that was Herbert Benson. He's a cardiologist in Boston, was just starting this research. And, uh, oh, and that got my attention because I was so highly anxious. Cortisol levels, anxiety, you know, lactic acid, different stuff balancing. So I learned and then I later about within six months or something like that I volunteered and and I was in the experiment. So I wasn't I was a test subject and the very first medical studies on any form of meditation done in the United States, 1970 1971, published in journal, American Medical Association, and Scientific American magazine, etc. But that's what got me into this arena, because about seven years later, after meditating everyday twice a day, and I became a leader in Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's meditation organization at the time, and an international leader for about 10 years. And about seven years into meditating. That's where my past life memories just spontaneously opened up. And I didn't believe in reincarnation, I didn't I, you thought if you told me what I was talking about reincarnation, Brian, I go, Yeah, Brian. I would have been polite, but like dismissive. And then about 16 years into meditating, that's when I just spontaneously opened up 1986 To the other side. So that's what and then all this stuff is, is continued, as you know, to present. And it's very fluid. It's not a big deal to me anymore. Although it was initially it was like, like I said, I thought I was watching too many Star Trek Trek movies. But it's very normal to me that transparency between this side and the other side, and so forth.

Brian Smith  22:16  
Yeah, I think it's really interesting. And this is one of the things I think that why resonate with you so much, because you started with this with a rational approach. You didn't come into it with what we call woowoo. Like, I want to go find past lives and stuff like that.

Kelvin Chin  22:31  
Yeah, it just stumbled on it stumbled onto me, or out of me out of me, I guess, is the way the memories just came out of out of really out of nowhere. And the first one was a dream that I had, that I didn't know was anything related to past lives. I just thought it was a dream. You know, I've had dreams, you know, most people, not most people, but a lot of people remember their dreams. And some people have very, very vivid dreams. And I've always had pretty vivid dreams. And as I've continued meditating over the last 50 years, my dreams have gotten more vivid and more clear and more lucid, etc. More colorful, literally colorful, more color, etc. But back then, no 19 It was like, I think it was early 1977 I had this dream and it was so powerful. emotionally. I was so upset. It was the most upset I'd ever been in my life. Nevermind in a dream or waking state. And it just really upset me. And and then I thought I forgot about it. I figured Oh, it's just an upsetting dream. People we all have upsetting dreams. Sometimes I'd probably just releasing a bunch of old junk and whatever. So I tell my students now my meditation students because it happens in dreams and so forth. We're releasing stuff, okay. So I forgot about it for probably like, I don't know, it was four or five months or something like that. And then I was on this. TM Transcendental Meditation. I was a teacher then. And I was on a like, I guess they call it an advanced course retreat meditation retreat, you would call it for TM teachers. And we were doing energetic movement exercises of not just meditating but also adding, you know, afterwards doing some energy movement, we'll call them Kundalini ish. If people know what Kundalini is just moving the energy through the through the system, and most of the people were just kind of bouncing around on the phone. On this hotel floor in Vilnius, Ville, Switzerland. We cleared out the dining room and you know, no furniture and put it in the basement or something. And then we just had foam mattresses wall to wall and so we'd have group meditations in there most of them and it was all guys so most of the guys were, you know, bouncing around the women were in a different hotel, whatever. And they were just bouncing around getting these energy rushes in and I flipped over on my back, like flipped over From my back completely spontaneous involuntarily, energetically, my feet are up in the air. And I was like this. And I was being crucified. And I was going through living the crucifixion experience. But but upside down, and it went on every time, every day, every group meditation, with about 75 of us in the room every day, for a couple of weeks. It went on for years after that, but for those couple of weeks, it would kept going on every day. And so we buddied up, and we you know, because we keep an eye on each other was part of the program, you know, like, make sure your buddies, okay, and you know, you know, you go for walks together. So I went for a walk after lunch with my buddy George George Hammond and, and we're walking up through this pastoral, beautiful setting in the Swiss Alps and stuff. And I said, you know, I had this dream, George, I don't know why I'm telling you this. But I had this dream, maybe it was four or five, six months ago or something like that. And I was lying in the ditch on the side of the road, and I was crying. I was really upset. And it was just all dirt and mouth and everything. And it actually know, I didn't even get that far into it, Brian, I said to him, I had a dream. And it was really upsetting to me. That's all I said something like that. And then he finished and he said, Yeah, you were in the ditches. I read, this is what you were wearing. And you're crying. You were there all night. I said, Well, I didn't tell you. I don't know. Did you read my mind? Is it No. He said, I said, I didn't read minds. I didn't read minds. So the I just, I just I am the guy who found you. I found you there. I didn't want you talking about. So this is like I wasn't into reincarnation, you know? And he said, he said what he said, Yeah, found you there. 2000 years ago, you said you've been who's been two weeks now every time we meditate in the group, you know, you're flipped over in your back and you're, you're feeling the physical and emotional pain of being crucified upside down. You know, you know who you are? And I said, No. And so I never paid attention to stuff really in the Bible and so forth. So and I went to Protestant Sunday school, because because my parents said we have to so but attention and but George was Catholic altar boy and all that and paid attention. And plus he has a photographic memory. But

he said, Oh, yeah, it's so that's when I first started getting glimpses of the Pete, the Simon Peter experience, and it was completely spontaneous. And then I started relaxing into it, and it just all kinds of other stuff opened up and then I started having other past life memories to that had nothing to do with that one. Just completely spontaneous. Over the next two present. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's,

Brian Smith  27:53  
that's, that's interesting. That's really a fascinating way that you you kind of came into Jude not kind of that you came into this. So I, I, would it be fair to say maybe the meditation opened you up and then allow that allow that to come through?

Kelvin Chin  28:08  
I think so. I mean, that's my, my educated guess. Yeah. Yeah. High, high probability, we'll say,

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Brian Smith  29:20  
that leads me to the second you know, the reason why I contacted you because someone contacted me and I've done the interview but hasn't come out yet. This person said I was I was John. I was John in the Bible, the guy that wrote the Gospel of John, and I know about your experiences. And I want to lead into the 38th November, things that we haven't talked about before. So I want to I want you to share with me why did you feel like you you've had these experiences?

Kelvin Chin  29:49  
Why bad experiences? Well, who knows? I mean, it's just a experience. It's open opened up in me but it's hard to say because my next six variants shortly after that was being a Carthaginian slave as a very, very dark, very dark, black, African slave in route that I guess, around 2300 years ago around 330. You know, what's at 330 300? BC? So who knows why you have these experiences? I've been known individuals and very unknown individuals in some, you know, that was asleep.

Brian Smith  30:28  
I didn't ask the question the way I meant to so the 30th of November, I want you to tell people what the 30th of November is, and how you came to this realization of authority from November. Oh, well,

Kelvin Chin  30:41  
the 30th. November 1 Of all the 30th November, what it is, is an event that I helped organize, okay, I helped organize an event. And it's called three zero th November, you have to put three zero th November in a.com. If you have people go to the website, three, zero th.november.com. They'll see the talk this there. And there's a lot more than that talk that you and I've seen there. I know you've been there to the website. I know. It's a three hour talk. It's a very long talk, you probably got to watch it in segments on the history of spirituality on planet Earth, in the Judeo Christian Islamic Vedic traditions. So that's four. And if you don't, those of you don't know the Buddhism comes out of the Vedic tradition. Okay. So it's an offshoot of the Vedic tradition. So out of the four major, the big ones in the on planet Earth, there's 4000, supposedly religions, but the four big ones. That's the history of them over the last 10,000 years. So they've been thought about. There's been a lot of, you know, thinking about those religions by the founders of those religions, for 10,000 years, all right. And then they've manifested obviously, there's different times over the past that 10,000 years period, that's what that talk is. It's a talk given by George Hammond. And George and I have known each other this lifetime since he was 18. And I was 20 years old. We taught meditation together years ago. And we've we we've triangulated history, knowledge of certain history, historical points to figure out and certain personal memories that we go back about 4000 years when I was an Egyptian priest, and he was a Jew in in eating what we know we know is Egypt, ancient Egypt, so 4000 years so we've known each other for a long time. He gave that talk. George is a let me just say a quick thing and and I'll talk about the third November thing a second forges Mata psychic as I said earlier, so he is he was a mergers and acquisitions, global law firm lawyer, partner in a law firm for many years, 2530 years. Okay, so those you know anything about law, or any about mergers and acquisitions, nevermind, global mergers, mergers and acquisitions, and mergers and acquisitions. Those are big business deals where businesses are coming together across borders of countries being funded and so forth. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars $50 million, you know, those are small deals a $50 million deal, okay? You got to know your stuff, not just legally, you gotta be able to think very strategically and incredibly, logically, rationally. So George got a download when his sister died in his house, from what we now refer to as our friends on the other side, we call them the movement because they call themselves the movement because these these leaders who started the Judeo Christian Islamic Vedic traditions,

gave him a download to share with us at this 30th November event that happened in 2014. So it's 30th, November 2014. So I helped organize that. And basically, it was a download about what their thinking was over this 10,000 year period, when various beginnings, we'll call them of those different four different traditions got going and changed here. And why did the, for example, most of the listeners probably are probably coming out of the Judeo Christian, you know, background. So for example, why did Jehovah start changing from the prophetic approach to doing something different with Jesus and John the Baptist, okay, which is kind of what we were just dipping our toe into a few minutes ago. Right, right. Right. So why did that happen? So this is all part of the 30th November talk, it's very because Jehovah Jesus, John the Baptist Shankara, those you who know who, in the Vedic tradition, knowledge is Shankara is a Vedic, you know, a seer, a sage, in the in the Vedic tradition, also Vyasa VIP chakra was Vyasa in a previous lifetime. In Vyasa, many people, most people know what the Bhagavad Gita is. So in the West, we most people have heard of the Gita, the Bhagavad Gita gi T. Okay. But the Bhagavad Gita is a story within this larger story called The Mahabharata. Vyasa. Remember who I did I just say chakra in chakras previous in a previous lifetime, many 1000s of years earlier. Vyasa wrote the Mahabharata and the Bhagavad Gita, so these individuals, who are the progenitors of these various major four major traditions on planet Earth for the last 10,000 years ish, ballpark, gave Georgia download. That's what the talk is the 30th November, why they did certain things and so forth. And what and what what is the thinking going forward? That's, that, to me, that's the primary thing, because a lot of people will be historically interesting stuff, as I already disclosed to you. You know, I don't know a lot of the history and, you know, in Judeo Christian stuff, because Kelvin chin disclosure, I was not paying attention in Sunday school. But to me that going forward, how do what what are these ideas that were thought up, you know, in disgust and then promoted over the last, you know, what's just a two to 10,000 years? What of those have changed what have not changed, and so forth? And so, in other words, how do we move forward? Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah,

Brian Smith  37:03  
I, I've listened to the talk. And it is fascinating. You know, it's, it's really interesting to me. I was raised in the Christian tradition. So I know the Bible very well. And when I was deconstructing the Bible, I learned it even better. So I learned about the history and all that stuff. And it's really interesting when you when you look at the Bible, you can see God, and I'll put that in quotes changing from the very beginning to the time of Jesus. I mean, and some people say, well, it's not even like the same person. Right? So you know, the, when you go through the talk, it really explains some of this, you know, why? Why would why would that be?

Kelvin Chin  37:40  
What what Jehovah with Jehovah is what most people many people refer to as God or Allah? Same thing, you know, Jehovah is the personality, the name of the personality? What was Jehovah thinking at these different stages, as you're saying, in the Old Testament, in the New Testament, etc? What was Jehovah thinking? Because the thinking did change. That's what was interesting. Yes.

Brian Smith  38:03  
Well, you know, and even and even as we use the term, Jehovah, because there are people now that still use the term Jehovah and like Jehovah's Witnesses, but they they think of this being Jehovah as the ultimate, the Ultimate Creator, the the, the, the source. And from my understanding, that's not not the case.

Kelvin Chin  38:20  
It's not the way Jehovah views himself, let's just say. So Jehovah is okay with how other people view him. But he views himself in a certain way. So there there, what came out in the discussion, so I was part of these discussions in the run up, because I was helping organize this for about 11 months before it happened started, we started organizing in January, when Georgia Sr, tragically died. And then she came and introduced them basically, to join that short version of that. When he was in the shower, literally after she died, two or three hours after she died in his house. So I've been privy to conversations with these. You know, there's about 15 or 20 of these, we'll call them personalities is the word I like to use on the other side now. And yeah, he does, he doesn't care how people view him, they can view him as capital G God in the way that you just described. Some people will view him and he's okay with that. He's not here to try to change people's beliefs either, about how they view him. But I'm just saying he doesn't view himself in that way. And as far as these, what many people refer to as these very highly developed spiritual beings, Jesus, Jehovah, John the Baptist, Swami brahmananda, Saraswati Shankara, who used to be Vyasa, and there's about another 15 or 20 of these spiritual, we'll call them spiritual leaders. As you know, throughout the history of Earth, nobody is ever met or knows about a capital G God. So they're not saying that there isn't one that exists. They're just saying we don't we, none of them, none of us are what you guys think.

Brian Smith  40:21  
Right? Well, and that's, I guess what I was, you know, it's interesting because I came to this conclusion, even before I left Christianity, because we were taught that you're going to go to go to heaven, it's going to be this big place with the streets of gold, and then the gods could be sitting on the throne. And I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm never going to meet God. And it just seems, you know, going back to your logical thing, I don't think God would be a being sitting on a throne. But just that seems too small

Kelvin Chin  40:49  
to me. Exactly. I always say, if there is a God, so I don't like to pour water on people's belief systems, as you know, I take people from wherever they are, but let's think about it. Let's assume there is a God in the capital G word that people are thinking, would God be a slave owner and want to control everything, and make everybody do what God wants? To me, that's a small minded person, that's not a capital G God, it's not even a small g god, in my mind, it's not a very developed. It's not about a very developed human being nevermind, you know, being on the other side, whatever. It's not a very developed mind. So undeveloped, very developed consciousness, a very limited way of viewing life. So to me, if there is a capital G God, then that being would say, Yeah, everybody free will, you know, you do what you don't you want to do, I ain't going to be a slave owner, I'm not keeping you on the plantation. It's like, No, I'm everybody is free to do whatever. And you figure stuff out, you know, if there is a capital G God, that's to me, that's what love is. And so Jesus is definition of love, for example, is accepting the other person for who they are not who you wish they were. Well, if that's Jesus's definition of love, do you not think that capital G, God wouldn't also use that definition of love accepting everybody to who they are not we wish they were not judging people, or that letting people judge themselves and other peers of theirs. Give them consequences to their actions. That's a good way for people to sort things out, I think, yeah.

Brian Smith  42:42  
And this, this, again, this kind of was things I came to kind of on my own as I was going through this process. You know, I looked at Jesus, and I was like, I love Jesus. Jesus is cool. I like to God, I'm like, God's not so cool. You know, the way that I was taught, you know, right, right, right, that it's this, this binary, black or white, you're going to have and you're going to hell, it's all based on what you you know, what you believe. And it's someone just the other day, when I put a near death experience on YouTube, all the Christians come out and start telling me how evil there is, and there's no such thing as reincarnation, and just read your Bible. And you know, you know, you're saying that people can do whatever they want. You're saying that murder is just cool.

Kelvin Chin  43:23  
So murder is not cool. Murder is part of the Free Will choices that somebody could make. In my opinion, it's a bad choice. But is it is it is it is a choice somebody can make. Yes. So it's not see the idea of free will is really misunderstood. freewill is just personal choice to do whatever. There are consequences to one's actions. You don't just get a hall pass. So but but there's not karma in the sea, the the origins of karma 10,000 years ago that this movement that I just described was, you know, kind of came up with was to try to control people's really, really bad behavior, because what would people do and 10,000 or 100,000 or 200,000 years ago? They're sacrificing they're killing who? And who are they killing? Mostly sacrificing to the gods, women and children? Why? Because they're physically weaker, and you can submit them easier, right? And so they're killing and then they're wars and everything else. So they're looking at this from the other side, they move in they go this is what how can we move these people in these these souls in these beings in a little bit more of a positive direction? Oh, how about teaching them that there are consequences to one's actions? The whole idea of karma we'll call it well, then it evolved or devolved. In my opinion, it evolved over the 1000s of years to this thing where Oh, now you're you've got mounds of karma and you get all these credits for doing good stuff and you get debits it's like an accounting system and those you know what debits and credits are? You get negative stuff, debits for doing bad stuff, and there's this big magical accounting system. In the in the sky somewhere, no. These are but other consequences. Yes. And do people remember from lifetime to lifetime that you miss them up? Which is used that euphemistically mess them? Yes, they remember, might they come back at you and you have a consequence from that? Yes, people never forget. So and that's a whole other discussion about forgiveness. But people never ever forget stuff, good stuff in bad stuff on some subconscious, sometimes very conscious level. But at least on a subconscious level, it's it's registered.

Brian Smith  45:40  
Now that you're here at grifter growth, I like to ask you to do three things. The first thing is to make sure that you like click Notifications, and subscribe to make sure you get updates from my YouTube channel. Also, if you'd like to support me financially, you can support me through my tip jar at grief, two growth.com. That's grief and number two growth.com/tip jar or look for tip jar at the very top of the page, or buy me a coffee at the very bottom of the page, you can make a small financial contribution. The third thing I'd like to ask is to make sure you share this with a friend through all your social media, Facebook, Instagram, whatever. Thanks for being here. So I want to talk. Obviously, we both believe in reincarnation, I think it's pretty clear from the conversation we're having thus far. But you know, this idea that so many people when they do quote, remember past lives, they're always this, you know, Cleopatra, or you know, Joan of Arc, or some some some major character. And some people you know, think their characters from from the Bible, for example, why might people have these?

Kelvin Chin  46:45  
These feelings? Yeah, it makes sense to me to some degree, I mean, to people. First of all, let's dispense with the idea that I hear sometimes we will say, well, there could be you know, 6000 Cleopatras out there because you know, people that No, no, there's one there was one Cleopatra. Okay, this one Brian Smith, this one Kelvin chin. All right, there's not going to be another Kelvin chin. There's not gonna be another Brian D. Smith. There may be other Brian Smith, but not another Brian D. Smith. Okay. And same thing with Cleopatra. But why could somebody very passionately and genuinely think that they were also Cleopatra, even though this other person centered play pattern, there are a whole host of reasons there could be, there could be just kind of obvious reasons. Like they, they really resonate with Cleopatra, because they did like a term paper on Cleopatra, when they were a kid, and it just bubbled up. And then later they started having spiritually transformative experiences that were very real. And that open them up and then they book, they projected subconsciously, their real connection, and love for what they researched in this lifetime about Cleopatra. So that could happen. That's pretty kind of simplistic, pretty obvious. But they could be much more complicated than that. It could be like, you know, like, let's say, you know, somebody in this lifetime, who actually was, let's say, who thinks they're Cleopatra O'Brien. But maybe in reality, X 1000s of years ago, when Cleopatra was alive, that person was actually one of Cleopatra's personal assistants, or one of their somebody who will just use the word worship. They know she wasn't, you know, but she was worshipped like a god at times, right? Okay. So who was that close to her? And was physically in that time period, and maybe even physically, physically, in her presence many times, and that person, let's say, that's that happened. And then let's say 500 years later, that person is now a high priestess, in some other religion, that is revering women like Cleopatra. Maybe not Cleopatra, personally, right? Blah, blah, blah, and it gets reinforced. And then fast forward, let's say 1000 years from then. Now they're in they've started some Institute about Cleopatra. All right, so I'm not doing the math here. But you know, maybe it's like, well, it looks like it's around 1300 ad now. 1400 ad wins the printing press. So you know, 1440 in Gutenberg, but let's fill the space around 1500 ad, okay. And now they created an institute and they got all these books and they printing and they've ended up and they're the head of that institute about Cleopatra's is something that resonates, really resonates Okay. And now and now fast forward to now 21st century Earth, okay. 21st century, you know, 567 100 years later. They do a past life regression. And the past life regression is picks up on all not all The specifics I just laid out. But this incredible connection says, Yeah, I'm getting some really strong about Cleopatra. And I think you have Cleopatra in a past life. Maybe the person in Italy does. But you can see how that cascade of very real experiences could lead to that. So that's why I say this, no absolutes, including with my memories, and so on, and so on. There's no ABS way of absolutes now. But now that's why I say look for reliable external evidence, for example. So I have I, you know, I'm writing my book. Now, my fourth one of my, it's now I'm telling you now for the first time, you're the first person to hear this, Brian, but I think I'm going to reorder my books in my memoirs about my past life is going to be my next book that's coming out. And then I'll get to my related fears about death and dying yet the my fourth book, but I am talking about this stuff in all of these crazy triangulations that I've had with, with these memories that I had, I don't always I don't get into it all in my talks, because it would take too long was gonna be a book, right?

Brian Smith  51:05  
Well, I think you know, when we talked about this earlier, that's why people can be genuine about this. And there's, there's many different sources to tap into. And we talked about consciousness. And we talked earlier before we started recording about the Akashic records. Another way that we can another thing that we can tap into,

Kelvin Chin  51:22  
absolutely, yeah, I call it the superhighway of data of information, because I try to stay away from cultural and religious lingo, because, you know, their work across so many countries. And, you know, if I sounded Muslim than the Hindus wouldn't talk to me, if I sounded Hindu, or Vedic, the Muslims when talk, I want everybody to use these concepts to be available to everybody. So I call it the Akashic records. I call it the superhighway of data or information. It's inanimate, those you don't know what it is. It's an inanimate energy field, we could call of information. It's not a consciousness, not consciously aware, it's just a data that exists. It's kind of like if you could imagine an energy computer says field or, you know, a database of everything that's ever happened and existed, and people have experienced of whatever's happened up to this point in human history, or in history, and you could tap into that, and think, oh, wow, I tapped into, you know, whatever. It's really hard to say, you know, apps with absolute certainty, and it's Yeah.

Brian Smith  52:32  
And, you know, I was telling, I'm reading a book right now about mediumship. And this kind of stuff, and the guy's a very accomplished medium. And he was talking about how people sincerely when you're reading someone, for example, you think you're having a medium reading, you can tap into the sitter, you can tap into a discarnate soul, that's not the person you think you're talking to, you can tap into the Akashic records, there's so many different ways things you could tap into. And unless you really have that discernment, or can triangulate the way you're saying, then you can't really know.

Kelvin Chin  53:01  
Yeah, the medium can tap into the person, the client sitting there, and just reflect back to them what they're already thinking or believing. Or the medium can tap into their own stuff, and maybe doesn't have a clear filter set up to keep their stuff out of the conversation. That's tough to do. It's very tough to do. But yeah, all of that is possible.

Brian Smith  53:26  
So yeah, there was a couple other things that we're talking about. We're, I could talk to you all day, we're kind of running out of time. was the other thing, I just lost my train of thought. There's another question want to ask you about, I'll get back to that. I wanted to do to tell people about different things you offer like there's turning within, I know you teach a class on the afterlife. You and I know you're gonna be talking more about the 30th November coming up shortly.

Kelvin Chin  53:51  
Right. Yeah, so I've been teaching meditation, as you said in the intro, for almost 50 years and now 49 is my 49th year teaching meditation 1000s of people. And so I offer classes and I teach people it's a four day class, it's about an hour the first day and a couple hours in the subsequent days. I give lifetime follow up I don't charge extra for the lifetime follow up and lifetime follow up means lifetime follow up means you text me email me questions. You meditate with me privately, whatever it is, I do a lifetime seated in the class forever and ever, ever, just as a refresher life forever. No charge, just show up. So that's a class that I've been teaching for many years. I've made it much easier than what I used to teach when I taught TM in the 70s. I call it turning within is there's no I've removed all the cultural and any quasi religious references to the teaching. As I said, that's why I can teach across all cultures and religions. And I've made it even simpler, made it easier, more flexible to do so I do that. I help people with fear of death issues. As you said, I have this you know my firt This is my first book is What the first book looks like is an audio book, I do the audio, narration of it is, obviously this is the paperback, and as an e book, so forth. And then this is the, this is the Marcus Aurelius book, which is a collection of 67 essays that I've written over the last 10 years. So I help people with overcoming the fear of death. And help them get past that, the debilitating effects of that and so that they can live their life more fully. And I take a non religious approach to everything that I do. And then I teach afterlife series. So if people are interested in that, I have a six part afterlife class and another one is starting in October 9. And it's every other week. So I give people two weeks to kind of digest the information because it's dense, it's really dense information, two hour sessions each and so they can find it on Kelvin qin.org. Or they can you know, subscribe to my YouTube channel, just you know, search for me Kelvin chin. But Kelvin Shindo dork has is my more spiritual website, turning within is the turning within.org. My meditation overcoming the fear of death.org is my fear of death one and then I have a book one book website, so I keep them separate, because not everybody is as each is the needs of that. I keep them separate that way. Well, I

Brian Smith  56:19  
can say I haven't taken an attorney within chorus. But I've heard people that have and they it's people just rave about it. So it's people say it's it's really helped that people who've been meditating for a long time make break through. So I'm definitely going to do that. Your afterlife course I have taken and it's it's awesome. I know the question I was going to ask you because I really want to get this while we're talking. This notion that there's no time on the other side.

Kelvin Chin  56:47  
It's wrong. It's a wrong idea. And once it but it's it's, it's based on a misunderstanding. The misunderstanding is what time is. So people will when they haven't experienced on the other side, I understand why they would say that, but they don't understand time is a measurement of change. That's what time is. Time is not a subjective experience. That's what people think. Time is that human beings make up this thing we call time no time exists in the universe, whether there are human beings or not. There is change in the universe in it can be measured, how we measure it in the increments of days, minutes, seconds. Yeah, we made that up. Okay. You know, the calendar used to have 10 months in the year, and now it has 12 months, and you're back in Roman times. It's 10 months. So yeah, we change. We can change that. We change that up. But time is a measurement of change. does change exist on the other side? Yes. How can you be talking to somebody? How can you have an experience on the other side, if change doesn't exist? Change only does not exist? If there's cosmic soup and no individuality and you've merged and you are, there is nothing there is no heaven. Okay, that's what then yeah, okay. You could say time doesn't exist. There's no, there's nothing. There's no change. But there is change on the other side? Who is the psychic in the medium talking to who is the nd E or having an x? Where are they having the experience they're having it in something they're called heaven or the afterlife or whatever they want to call it? No. Valhalla, you can call it whatever you want. But it's, it exists. And if it exists, it exists within the field of change. And if it exists in the field of change in the continuum of change, we'll call it then it can be measured. That's what time is. So so people miss misinterpret that because they think it's it's subjective. It's like, well, I'm on the beach in Hawaii and time didn't exist. Because, you know, next thing I know, it's like, Sunday, we gotta go back. I gotta go to work on Monday. Now. It feels like as if you'd not experiencing the second by second clicking of your watch hand of time. Yeah, that's accurate. But the but change still existed when you were on the beach in Hawaii. It didn't stop and you didn't merge into some cosmic soup Enos. That's what people if they understand what time is they go, okay. Because it's like, you know, does does it's a subjective experience of time is different. In Hawaii. When you're punching a clock in the factory, okay. But does does marriage exist? Yes, it exists. It exists. It's a legal institution of two people, whatever you want to call marriage. Okay. Does it exist? Does it exist different in subjective? Do people describe marriage different subject differently subjectively? Yeah. That doesn't mean that marriage doesn't exist because you can describe it subjectively different. That's what people are doing when they think Oh, time doesn't exist because it's like so crazy. You know, it's just maybe faster or slower or however you want to describe it on The Other Side? In other words, the subjective experience may be different. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Brian Smith  1:00:05  
Yeah. And I think that's, it's really interesting. When people do have near death experiences, they'll say something like time didn't exist, but then they'll describe events, they'll describe, you know, conversations are

Kelvin Chin  1:00:16  
logically inconsistent, it makes it's completely 100% illogical. And they don't understand that because, again, this is sloppy use of English, okay? They're not using the English language, and they're not using their logic properly, it's not going to cause them a lot of suffering. This this notion, but the problem is this notion does merge no pun intended into the merging idea. And that's what can cause suffering. That's a problem.

Brian Smith  1:00:50  
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you're right. And for me, it's all about, as we said, at the beginning, you and I are both about, you know, preventing suffering, reducing suffering as much as possible. I don't really care what people believe until, as I said, I see some people coming to my YouTube channel, and they'll see a near death experience and say, Well, this guy didn't mention Jesus, therefore, this, none of this can be true. Or this guy said, their dogs in heaven, that there's no way that could be dogs in heaven. So therefore, none of this can be true, because there's so bound to this interpretation of the Bible. I had someone the other day, it's just the other day, someone commented on my videos and said, Well, if it doesn't line up with the word of God, and she's capital W of God, then you know, you can't believe it. And that's the Bible is not the word of God. That's why

Kelvin Chin  1:01:37  
there's so many there's so many people who believe that the Bible is, was somehow as I think you I heard you on one interview, say it just kind of like, dumped on somebody's lap, and it was all gold bound. Right, you know, gold bound already. You know, it's just, you know, people like that you can't really, they're not, they're not rational thinkers. So to me, my, my audience will stay. The ones who will resonate with me are ones who really want to understand things, clearly. The ones who really don't want to understand things clearly and just want to kind of sit in their emotional comfort zone without thinking. In other words, they do bifurcate. And I don't think it's bifurcated. But they believe that their thinking can be bifurcated from their emotions, that they just want to sit in that feel good state and not question that the Bible is the Word of God, they just believe that. That's, that's not my target audience. My target audience is people who want to understand things clearly, and really move forward with their lives in a way that's less and less suffering. Yeah, let really less and less suffering. And not everybody is there. And I'm not here to change people and try to convince people to be there in that mode either. So people, some people want to suffer. And that's their choice. When we say free will, it means anything. Choice of any. Yeah. So here's the thing, one thing that we did want to mention about the 30th November idea that I am going to have a talk like this publicly, in a couple of few weeks, I haven't set a date yet. I'm working with somebody to set the date. Where we're I'm just going to talk about general overview of 30th November topics, I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty of what George talks about, that the download from the the, you know, the movement on the other side, and so forth. But Jehovah Jesus, John the Baptist, Shankar Vyasa. So I'm even under Sarswati, and so forth, and other leaders, spiritual leaders, that movement, I'm not going to get into exactly what they said. But I'm going to talk about topics and I'm going to give a preview of it in a session in a couple of weeks. And then I'm going to wait a month, and then I'm going to do a q&a. I'm going to lead I'm going to facilitate myself a q&a, after I've given people a month to go watch the 30 of November talk and write down questions in this and that I'm going to do in November, I'm going to do a q&a.

Brian Smith  1:04:17  
Yeah, I'm really excited about that. Just said, I've watched the video. I think it's fascinating, you know, information to take in and from my perspective, you know, you talked earlier about your target audience. There are people that don't want to suffer who are trapped in some of these beliefs. And so, you know, for their people like yourself that when I was trying to come out of this, I'm grateful that they were there for me, I'm grateful you're there for me to kind of help me put some of this stuff together because I do want to think logically and rationally and that's, that's my audience, as people that say, I'm willing to explore and listen and then check it out for yourself. I always tell people, I don't expect you to ever believe anything that I say, you know, check it

Kelvin Chin  1:04:58  
out for yourself. I see See the same thing, exact same thing I said at the beginning of all my class, that you take what I say that makes sense and you've shelved the rest, and maybe you shelve it forever, maybe you just shelve it for two months or two years or whatever, and you take it off and you look at it, dust it off, you're gonna go, I can see what he's talking about now. Or maybe you never do. But my goal is, is to reduce fear and suffering in the world. So people can live more freely, whatever they incremental, got nothing to do living a utopian life, because I don't think anything is ever perfect. Everybody is we can choose to move and develop more fully and live more happily. My goal is to help people think more clearly, in that way. And if I can help people think more clearly, I have set themselves up for whether they believe it or not. In future lifetime, past lives, future lives, reincarnation, I have set them up, whether they hang out on the other side for a long time, and then come in much later, whatever after 1000 years, they can do that. But whenever whatever their future life is, I have set them up to be happier. Because if you can think more clearly and make better decisions, you'll have a happier life. It's not that complicated. A formula, having a more clear, logical, rational way to think about things that's not cognitively dissonant, that's not overnight easy. By the but the goal of having a a more clear thinking mind and soul spirit consciousness, whether you call it as we go through what I think my logic tells me is an eternal journey of living. That's my goal

Brian Smith  1:06:41  
of helping us awesome Well Kevin, thanks so much for doing this. I really appreciate you being here. I hope I well not I hope I know people are gonna get a lot out of this. So thank you for being here.

Kelvin Chin  1:06:50  
Your great great to great to chat Brian again, anytime.

Brian Smith  1:06:55  
Don't forget to like hit that big red subscribe button and click the notify Bell. Thanks for being here.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai