Emma of The War Turtles

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What's new 802? I'm Becca Hammond and you're listening to Vermont Talks. Vermont Talks may include graphic or explicit content. Listener discretion is advised. We're trying this in a whole new space today. Welcome and thank you for listening. Today is the 28th of March. It's Saturday. We're hanging out at the University Mall. We're trying this out I'm here with Emma from The War Turtles and The War Turtles is very loved amongst all my friends and it's a shoegaze post rock band and Emma's been a musician since she was 10 years old and into music even longer. Very fair. Seven albums. It's so insane to me that you have so much music on your band camp. I was a little overwhelmed because I thought that you were a newer band and then I was like, oh, I'm clearly deeply mistaken. So welcome, Emma. Welcome to my interesting experimental episode. I'm very happy to be here. It's kind of like an intentional misconception that I've like I've almost tried to set up that it's like, oh yeah, I mean I'm new in some ways. But also I have just been doing The War Turtles since I was 16 and like I was like always just posting stuff. So like it is a band that's been around for a while and like I like getting to kind of play with that and have this whole history that people don't know about when they're just finding out about me. It's really cool and The War Turtles has the cutest logo which I'll have to put on my show notes page today and we're going to like everything up so you can find Emma's social media. Okay, so starting at 16. Okay, well backing up now, were you always playing guitar? Well, so it's guitar was my first instrument and that's what I started with as a ten-year-old. I was actually always like interested in guitar players when I was younger. I was obsessed with Angus Young as a kid and my uncle actually got me this guitar that was just like basically a full-sized epiphone guitar as a three-year-old. It was a Christmas present for me as a three-year-old and so it was way too big for me. Everyone just said the amp was too loud because I didn't know what I was doing. I mean you were three. So like I just, I always had guitars just like around the house and then I also really loved Guitar Hero as a kid. Fair. Both Guitar Hero and Rock Band had the full set of the plastic instruments and when I was ten I like made myself a DIY mic stand out of like a Play-Doh bucket and a broom. And basically I was at the point where I was trying to sing on Guitar Hero while also doing the guitar parts because I knew how to sing the songs and my dad was probably just like this is ridiculous and asked me if he'd want me to get one of these guitars fixed up and and maybe get a lesson and it was basically just a 15-minute free Guitar Center lesson where they taught me three chords and had to tune the thing. Right. And then I like I ran off as a ten-year-old and I was already like just immediately trying to learn like Iron Maiden and Metallica songs because that's for some reason where my head was at ten years old. That's totally fair. My first one was Crazy Train. I was like I'm gonna learn this. Yeah I think the very first thing I tried to learn was the like it was the intro to Wasted Years by Iron Maiden. For some reason I heard it and I just was like this sounds cool and like kind of flashy and it seems like it would be fun even if I can't play the whole song. Right. And I like actually couldn't play any whole songs on guitar for like a year or two. I was always just like learning riffs and like trying to learn techniques or whatever but like it didn't yeah it wasn't really like playing songs or anything. Which is fair. I mean when you start at that young. Right yeah and especially like like kind of no guidance like like mostly mostly just on my own. Right. Self-talk. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of figure it out slowly as you go. Okay so when did you give up on Iron Maiden because you don't sound anything like Iron Maiden. Well yeah so that was just like that when I was younger and into this kind of like what it was for me was like Metallica adjacent things because I have always been like a huge Metallica fan and that's kind of what I really started with when I got into guitar. I was in the middle of of an obsession with guitar hero Metallica specifically. But I really started actually one of my brother's girlfriends introduced me to the White Stripes. Yes. And that was like a huge turning point for me and to end to what would kind of start to become my more more clear influences. Yes. I personally love Jack. Jack right. Jack White. Oh my god. Yeah. He's so entertaining. Yeah. Like I like I like I do like I love Jack White a lot. I still follow what he does now. The White Stripes are definitely just some of the best stuff that he ever did and and and Meg White was so interesting to me and and now nowadays in the war turtles when I play live I'm doing like a million things at once. I'm like yes I'm I'm turning knobs on a keyboard with my foot while singing and playing guitar and I've got one hand on a keyboard and all of that very much comes from me as like an 11 or 12 year old watching White Stripes live videos on YouTube and and seeing him like I think of like Icky Thump or songs like that where where he's you know got one hand on an organ and then he's like chugging out with the other hand and I just I immediately I was just like I don't care if I can't play either of these well I'm going to try to do it. At the same time. Right. Yeah. So I was just like why not why not start early I guess. Um yeah and it's like it honestly took a while for me to like convince myself to do that live. I would do that type of thing in my room and then feel like it was like too flashy or like it's like a stick or something. Right. And like I was like oh no I'll just I'll just stick to guitar and singing and then eventually I started doing it more working it in maybe in the last like six months or so and everyone always wanted to like see see more of that. So I've tried to like make that more of what I what I do now and there's also like since all over my records and so I've always been trying to figure out how to work that like the sort of electronic stuff into me playing live. Excuse me sorry I really wanted to compliment your outfit it is so. Oh thank you very much. I cut up the shirt myself but I think I actually probably got this metallic shirt when I was here as a kid at the mall. Thank you very much. Yeah I like your sweater too. Yeah that is a very nice sweater. Okay well what's your name Charlie Emma nice to meet you have a good day. Thank you. It's for you. Things you don't get in my you know living room. Right yeah yeah. Yeah bring it back to the mall. That's right yeah the influence of the mall. Yes because we were talking in the car on the way here that we are both rural Vermont farm or you know not farm kids you're not a farm kid I'm a farm kid but this was like the apex of like culture. Right yeah we were younger is the university mall. When I was when I was 10 and I wanted to get Metallica shirts I asked my dad to bring me to the mall and we went hunting around Coles and JCPenney and I'm pretty sure I got like four Metallica shirts for my first week of sixth grade because I wanted I was at a new school and I wanted to make sure I found all the music heads and that was my method I was like I'm gonna wear a Metallica shirt every day for the first week of school. Perfect. Did it work? Kind of yeah honestly and and and that wouldn't have been possible without the good old university mall. Oh that's awesome. Okay so you're talking about the sins and working them in because I got to see you at Oddfellows last month I think that was yeah it feels like a couple weeks ago maybe more and yes you have a lot going on but it's very cohesive and like it sounds good so the last album that you released which I'm gonna plug your bandcamp harder than your Spotify so your bandcamp is full of stuff. Right there's a lot there that isn't on Spotify. Okay even better so like go go to bandcamp for the underground stuff. What is the most recent album that you released and does that have a lot of synth work on it? Yes so so the most recent one is uh oh boy here's the full title um but the it's called The War Turtles. It's so long I always get it wrong. The War really over part four winter. Um concise yes and the album is 20 tracks and two and a half hours long. Wow. There's actually a song that's in a like a bit of a legal gray area because of some sampling um and so that that is uh bandcamp only it's the second to last song and the album and it's 30 minutes long. Nice. Um so the Spotify version is 30 minutes shorter maybe an improvement depending on how you look at it um but uh there there it's it all of these Goliath albums are songs that I put together over the course of like five years and all of them were started a million different ways but but me doing my reporting at home and uh there's two kind of main synths um one that I tend to use at shows now um and uh I also when I was younger I got a Yamaha DX7 which is like uh it's an 80s synth that was it's actually like the best selling one of all time. Nice. If you know like like just like 80s radio hits it's like the cheesy piano sound or like the fake harmonica sound in all the Whitney Houston songs like it was like it like it like caused trauma to a whole generation of like kids growing up with the radio because it it just like it drives some people crazy but I love using it in this like kind of indie rock context. Yeah. Um and and this like specifically kind of shoegaze thing which like is is was never really how the DX7 was used um and that in this little Korg keyboard that I use for shows now um those are all over the the Goliath albums because they were like the two synths that I had since I I don't know it's for six years now probably um and so like um for for for 20 songs there's like probably at least one keyboard on each song. Yeah. There's very few songs that doesn't doesn't have some sort of synth on it. So you said you're recording these yourself. Yes. And I know you mix so I'm assuming you're mixing all of this yourself too? Yes. Okay so you're not just the musician or also the producing recording engineer on all of this like this is super DIY. I didn't realize you were doing all of the like all the indie things. Are you also doing your own mastering too? Well so I I've done that for um a lot of my things but uh the Goliath was such a big project it it kind of felt ridiculous to to do it all myself and I also knew that someone else could do it better than me. Um so I actually contacted River from uh now now Big Lake recording uh her band is emo girls kissing. Yes. Um who has also played at Oddfellows recently. Um and really I I thought she was a very cool person. It was maybe like honestly not before Goliath was like actually like finished. Um and I I really didn't know how to like make friends with anyone in Burlington living an hour away when I couldn't go to shows yet. Yep. So I was like maybe I'll just hire people like like truthfully. I was like if I work with her it gives me an excuse to talk to her and maybe we can just be friends if she thinks I'm like cool. Yes. Um and I was like 17 because I mean that's I mean I guess how old I was when I like kind of started this thing and um she actually said yes to doing mastering on this eight hour album. I was giving her all of that info ahead of time because I wanted her to know what she was getting into and she did the first three parts for free. That's crazy. Um like like I didn't have a job really at the time. I I you're just a kid. Right. Yeah. I like I it took me a while to even get my my uh driver's license. Um and so she she was just like yeah I mean I'll do you know pay me when you can but like I uh she did say she would do it all for free if that's what I needed and eventually um I I kind of had my own life situation. She had her own life situations that like uh kind of got in the way of part four. Yeah. Uh all the other three parts came out like throughout 2024 and uh part four was supposed to be early 2025 and then it got delayed an entire year because of what kind of like both of us were going through individually. Yeah that's fair. Um and in that time I kind of got my shit together and and and uh got a job got a little more stable ended up moving to Burlington. Um and was actually able to pay her for for part four at least. Nice. Um and I mean I love her because she would have done it anyway. Um and she just like uh we really enjoy working together. It it kind of feels like opposite sides of the same point because like I'm more songwriter focused but I've I've picked up the engineering stuff because I have to. Yeah. And she has done way deeper dives on all of these engineering practices that that I'm just like not not totally willing to get into the weeds on. Yeah. Um so she like really knows what she's doing in a way that I don't. Um it's such a huge undertaking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even if you're doing it DIY like I have mad respect for you doing it yourself but. Right. Yeah. But like I still get to the point where like I do mastering and it's like kind of just pressing a buck. Yeah. Because I don't really know what I'm doing and I use like a preset in Ableton and I just got a tweak some knobs a little bit. You know like like she really knows the ins and outs of it and and has definitely done a way better job with all of the life than than I could have done. Um we are actually we're going to work on a song together. Nice. Um she wants a good like example song to show off with with what she can do with her her skills and in her space. Um and she asked me for quote a really good song. Um and and and tasked me with with presenting her with one. Um so we've uh we've scheduled some studio time and and we're going to kind of just like bang out a song in roughly a day. Nice. Um and I'll probably put that out as a single at some point. Um maybe I'll do like my version on an album and then the single will be like River's version or something like that. Um because I'm still trying to figure out how like collaborative I want the War Turtles to be because it's always just been my thing and I'm I'm getting to the point where I am working with other people now. Right. And and so like when it comes to to writing or just like yeah we weaning into letting other people do production or things like that it's like it's still very new to me. Yeah. Um that's the the qualm with the being very independent. Right. Yeah. It's great when you can do all these things to yourself but it's also really stressful and tiring and you have to know so many things. Right. It's like it's like very much by necessity and kind of like a like necessity is the mother of invention type thing. Yes. You know because I mean I I mean I wouldn't have done any of it this way if I just like had people in rural Vermont, Morseville who knew what shoe gaze was. Yeah. That's not a thing. I don't know. Like yeah like no one like yeah like that's that's a big part of why I came to Burlington because like I talk about these bands that are my influences and people actually know who I'm talking about here. Yes. You know. Yeah. Like they're they're I just they're there were all of these like 30 to 50 year olds playing at at bars and open my honky tonk who would just like their their eyes would go blank when I bring up these bands and then they'd be like oh you know there's this part of this song that you played where it kind of sounds like kiss. You like kiss. Right. Right. I was like I mean. Our classic rock. Like I like I did I did kind of grow up on classic rock but like that's not what I'm trying to do. Exactly. And I'm trying to find people who can do these things with me. And when I was younger because I never really came to Burlington that much I just didn't get exposed to it all that much. I thought I like kind of had to leave. You know like like like there was actually a little while before I met River and before I met some other people where I just thought that even in Burlington there was no scene like this because I had no clue. I kind of growing up here I viewed the whole state as a monolith because I never really got to travel through it. Yes and even just getting to Burlington that's it. You're an hour away or more from Burlington as a kid that's not accessible. Right. Like I'm an hour away higher ground shows were always like even like more expensive than I could really afford with my family. Yeah. And then it was like you know yeah trying to convince my mom to like what bring some 12 year old to a higher ground show. Exactly. It's not that easy. Yeah that's that's the world that I lived in. I'm guessing you missed 242 as well. Yes. Yes. Unfortunately and actually it is a thing that my parents probably would have tried to bring me to but they didn't even come to Burlington enough to find out about it. Right. Like my parents aren't from Vermont originally. They're from like Maine and New Hampshire and then they ended up moving here after having kids. So they didn't really get to like grow up finding out about anything. They had like a couple friends here but nobody to really inform them of what was happening around here. They were just finding everything out for themselves fish out of water. Yeah. I mean like we have the internet now to find these small little venues. Right. Yeah. That's it. You've got a 12 year old who wants to come see a show in Burlington. It's like higher ground or netters and you can't go to netters because it was a bar. Right. Yeah. It's like even though like they lived here since the mid 90s and then like you know had had four kids by the early 2000s and they they yeah they they were just stuck in Lemoyle County and you know like like had had no clue other than like all right we got to go to Williston for Walmart. Yeah. Right. You know like we got to buy clothes. Right. Yeah. Let's go to Chittenden County. Yeah. Yeah. There's a there's a I know there's a Costco somewhere out here. It's like the big draw of Colchester. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well OK. So when is your next show. I'm going to release this on Tuesday. Oh yes. So the next show is actually April 4th. This is I believe that's a Saturday and that is that radio bean. Cool. Like love or radio being proper. Radio being proper and this is going to be my first straight up radio bean show. I have played like love before. That's a big I want to double check who I'm playing with. I know so I am actually it's kind of I'm going to drop a little secret here. I think it's like semi secret for now but but an obvious secret. I am going to be playing drums for the show in Star Farm. Oh cool. That's very cool. Their drummer is moving out. I can't exactly do it like full time but I did offer to help out with some shows coming up at least just this one and see how it goes from there. And so I will be playing drums in Star Farm. I'll also be playing with assorted fruit who I love very much and they play it at Oddfellows a lot. And then I'll be opening with the war turtles. Cool. That's a busy night. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's kind of honestly happened a lot for me where I end up doing doing two things in a night. Yeah. I didn't realize you played drums too. What else do you play so well so I've been I've been trying to find people to put me on drums more recently because I have a lot of fun doing it. And I mean I do drums all over my albums but I started with guitar then I picked up and I always like sang and then I picked up keyboards bass drums. I have also on occasion done kalimba banjo lap steel. Nice. And some other some other miscellaneous things I guess. But yeah there's there is actually like this band that I used to work with and they kind of used to be my backing band and I played in their band and I was just there like Swiss Army Knife. We kind of all switched instruments in the band but literally they're the ones that got me on banjo and I was like I don't think I can play banjo. And they were that doesn't even matter. They were like it's too chords. We know you just just hold it for a second and and then I just I just kind of got it. Yeah. Have you played guitar? And I ended up I ended up doing banjo on a couple songs live sometimes with them. That band was called Hard Tellin. Nice. Kind of classic Vermont joke. Their logo is basically just the darn tough logo but it says Hard Tellin instead of darn tough. Hard Tellin not knowing. Exactly. Exactly. I haven't thought about that phrase in a while. Yeah I grew up with that though. What the hell is that supposed to mean? Right. Yeah. That's what it means is I don't know. I mean yeah literally it just means I don't know. Just saying it with extra words. Right. A little more rustic chart. Yeah yeah yeah. And yeah like that that was a very fun band for me to be in. It definitely like it's more like kind of twangy and like weird like country kind of lo-fi stuff but like it pushed me out of my comfort zone a lot. Got me to do stuff I wouldn't do in the war turtles. I love funky stuff. I also help them record. Oh nice. Cool. Okay. So they have a couple EPs out and they're they're gonna like hire me to come do a third EP or something. Sweet. I think I have seen this logo now that you say that I think I have seen this around. Yeah I think I might actually oh yeah I've got some of the stickers on me. Oh sweet. So there you go enjoy a nice a nice vintage hard talent sticker. You know what I also have for you. But we're doing a sticker button exchange. I will I I will wear these with with the glee. Very cool. Okay so hard talent is still a thing but you're not like a direct member of it still. You're adjacent. Where we're at now is I am like an honorary hard talent member and they are all still honorary war turtles. But I haven't really played with them in a while. Hard turtles. Yes. Yeah yeah yeah there were a couple hard turtles show where it was like I would open and then we would go into their stuff and it's literally just the same band. Right. But like changing who are the front people and like the group of songs. That's fun. And it was a very different vibe because their whole thing was like all their songs are funny but sad at the same time. And then mine are just like like kind of self-serious and emotional and and me doing some indie rock confessional shit. And I thought it was a hilarious contrast and it usually kind of like swept people away a little bit because they didn't expect us to be able to do both. Right. You know they were like we were either a goofy bar band or this like a really atmospheric kind of angry thing. And we were also both. You know it wasn't one or the other. And that was kind of like the first band that I really got to like cut my teeth with performing live for like two-ish years. Right. So I do I do they're still they're very much still honorary war turtles. I have a lot of a lot of honor and respect for them. Where are they based out of. So they are based out of Morseville. Morseville is the area. So that's that's where I used to live. And so it was kind of just much easier to make the distance. Yeah. Now that makes sense. And it's interesting that like eclectic nature of Vermont musician people. Yeah. I love like a weird mix of some folky country stuff. But like. Right. Modern countries, this really like pigeonhole kind of ugly thing with a lot of marketing shoved in it. And I think that's that sort of like, Fokie, we're gonna throw a banjo in and like experiment is so much more like culturally accurate to the area. Right. Yeah. Like they were they were very open. They were like, we like this like country and bluegrass stuff, but also we like, like, they were really big into the dead milk men and like this kind of like indie rock stuff, like pavement and like all this kind of 90s stuff. They back as well. Yeah. Yeah. Back to that. Yeah. That's kind of one of those like pioneers. We're gonna use a little bit of some Fokie 20 stuff. Yeah. And it's because they genuinely love it, but also they just like refuse to not bring other stuff into it. You know, they weren't just going to do the Fokie stuff. And so I really enjoyed that. Yeah, that's because your stuff when I got to see you play it. The the indie like almost a little bit. A little bit frog, a little progressive, but not like not prog rock. Right. Definitely not like you're still shoe gaze, but you're a little progressive. But also like. I want to get the right word here because you're mixing so much with the synth and all of the different sounds that almost like towed into like a vaguely industrial, but not like shoe gaze industrial, not like very eclectic, cool sound that I was super impressed. I didn't know what to expect when I heard about the war turtles. I thought you were more like folk punky. Just based on an assumption of who you played with on a previous show. Right. You were not at all. And you had so much going on with your set up, but it sounded so good. Thank you. I am I am I am specifically stoked to hear someone use the term industrial to describe the war turtles. That's it. And it's not like, oh, this is industrial, like nine inch nails. But it's just like touching that sort of. I always think of the bands they featured in Scott Pilgrim. Some of those like specifically him with the drum machine. There was like these parts where I was like, oh, this this is really cool. And there's very few bands that I know what to call it exactly. So I end up using that term. I'm like, it's like Indian industrial. But right. I don't know what to call it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like. I am like, I'm very interested in like fake sounds for the for the sake of fake sounds. So, you know, like I love I do. I love some good machinery. I do actually like nine inch nails. Yes. But like there's there's a lot of artists that I listen to that aren't like exactly industrial, but they're usually like industrial adjacent. Yes, exactly. Like a huge influence on me is the band Swans. OK, I don't think I know them, but. And that is actually a big part of why I use I use since the way that I do. And also part of where I get the the the massive song structures from where it's like a little a little progressive in that way, but not in the Prague Rock way, where there's like a million parts in it. And it's like a super. There's a lot of notes in progressive and you're doing right where it's much more. Yeah. And it's like it's also like progressive is like it's very exact. Yes. And and I always do things that are way more improvised leaning or just like specifically like leaving leaving space for improv improvising even if there's a structure. Yeah. And so like a lot of the bands are that I listen to kind of fall into post rock. That's kind of no one tends to know it. Unfortunately, people know Shoegaze more than they know post rock. Yes. But but. Yeah, I don't think I know. To give a genre that that is what kind of mostly aligns with with the war turtles. Because it's like it is very open in terms of the sound choices. But it's a more like like this like ethic of really taking your time. And like most songs are 10 to 12 minutes or 10 to 20. I have plenty of 30 minute songs. Yeah. OK, post rock. Let's pause for a moment. Yes. Do you have a famous band that I and other listeners might know that is like classified as post rock? I'm scratching my head because I actually don't know that one. And I know a lot of it's like it's a hard thing to pull because it's like like historically kind of an underground genre. OK. But some of the more popular ones are this band Slint with that with an album called Spiderland. I have heard. I don't think I've heard. It's like if you've seen the cover, maybe it's like this black and white cover. These four heads poking out of out of the water. OK. Interesting. There's also this band from Chicago called Tornis, who is another funny enough war turtles tortoise. But they're like very defining band for post rock. It's like mainly a genre that seemed to birth out of the like mid 90s. Yeah. That's kind of when the first albums that were getting called post rock started appearing. Shuge is also around that. OK. Yeah. And I guess older. There's a band called Talk Talk. OK. I have heard of Talk Talk. I don't think I've ever really listened to them. They have a couple albums, The Spirit of Eden and Laughing Stock, which which are both albums I listen to a little later, but I would call them influences. Yeah. And they they very much like. There there's also like kind of like an ethic with post rock of using the the studio as an instrument. And like kind of as a part of the songwriting process with like a lot of samples or like like editing together things that originally had nothing to do with each other. Yeah. Yeah. That experimenting that you couldn't do. Right. You can do this 50 years ago. Right. So yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. It's like just music with a lot of a lot of patience and and experimentation and kind of just like for like like I wouldn't really call Radiohead Post Rock. Yeah. Because they they to be honest, are usually trying to be like more catchy and like more to the point. Yes. But like I usually say, it's kind of like if Radiohead was just like regularly pulling eight to ten minute songs if they were were kind of a little more laid back and and patient in their approach. Interesting. That's kind of what Post Rock is because it's like it's it's very much that level of experimentation. But like you can kind of tell that those are like still like rock guys. Right. You know what I mean? Like like like Post Rock definitely implies that it's like it's not just like after rock, it's like we're done with rock. Like maybe we still like it. But like as a as a genre name, it's like we're past it. You know, like like and they're like discarding a lot of things. But it's like really heavy music that's not metal. And like even if it's instrumental, it tends to still be emotional. Right. This is cool. I'm going to have to check out a bunch of these. There's actually probably a lot more instrumental Post Rock bands than than bands with vocals. Yes. I personally I get torn on this because I like vocals. We all like vocals. Right. Sometimes they don't add anything of value, though. That's like I love a lot of metal, but I'm always kind of like, wow, I wanted to know what this sounded like. Right. Before you screamed over it. Yeah. Would it be interesting? You know what I mean? Yeah. I personally do enjoy a lot of instrumental music. Cool. This is really cool because that's it. I do not know anything about Post Rock. So I feel like I need to do more research. Now, one last band I will mention is Godspeed, You Black Emperor. That is kind of a more popular one, a little more recent. They sound like a metal band or a heavy, you know, whatever, whatever you want to call it. They've actually played in Vermont a handful of times. I saw them once here before. Cool. I know Fischer is actually a fan of them. And we we we he saw one of their previous shows that I didn't get to see here. But another like huge influence on me and there's maybe like four or five bands that are part of the reason why Post Rock got popular as a name. And Godspeed are one of them. Cool. OK. Yeah, I mean, I have to check them out because that's it. I love heavy music, too. So I feel like I've been missing something. Right. Yeah. But you say like they're heavy, but there's less vocals. I'm like, wow, this sounds right up my head. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm sorry, I'm like name dropping a million. I will also mention explosions in the sky. Not that that one's like a huge influence on me. But they they seem to have a pretty big like fall in some ways. And like they they do shows at higher ground and they're always sold out. Oh, cool. At the like all instrumental, very influenced by Godspeed. Like it's a scene that's been around for a while. So there's like almost like generations of it. Right. Where like the 90s stuff are like the originators and like they're still around. But then there's the people who grew up listening to that in a way. Right. And like I'm probably like third or fourth gen Post Rock, if we're thinking about it that way. It's crazy to think that the 90s is as old as it is now. Right. When you grow up in the 90s. Yeah. Yeah. This is very modern. But now we're like we're going on for general like four decades. We're working like towards which is insane to think about. And that's a lot of time and a lot of like teenagers. Yeah. Well, yeah. The years are so short. I was I was born in 2003 and then finding stuff like this as a 15 year old. You know, so that's like in 2017, 2018 ish, you know, like like. That's a that's a lot of time for for things to happen and for for new things to come out. And and and the Internet has just sped all of this up because you used to not be able to find this stuff. Right. Like we small bands would make a CD or whatever. But only they're like locals knew about their subgenre that they invented. But now because you can find everything on the Internet and the the golden age of YouTube, when it used to suggest similar tracks of very unknown, awesome artists, that used to be the best way to find new music. Now everything is just blending together and changing so quickly. And I love what the Internet has done for music personally. I know we all have qualms with social media, but it's really cool though. Like stuff like this. Yeah. I can't believe I didn't really know anything about this is one of those things that's always like a little shocking when you're in the music scene and you're like, wow, I have no idea what you're talking about. Right. And this is something with a rich history that's been going on for 30 plus years. Yeah. Yeah. Like and I am like I am kind of a history nerd at some like on some levels. And I mean, this is one of the things that drives me crazy, where it's like there's this whole thing that's been existing right next to you for all this time. And you have no clue about it. You know, just just when you finally make that discovery and realize there's this thing you've never heard of. Yeah. That just that makes me want to like dive in so hard. And just learn more about it. Right. Yeah. Like like the the yeah, the ice breaks and I just I kind of can't help myself. Yeah. Like that's like that's how I feel with with Oddfellas a little bit. I was just going to ask, are you officially an Oddfellow? We're we're talking about it. I did actually say I am also not officially by talking about it. I did straight up. It's tell Zach that I would like to set up my my initiation, do whatever I need to do for that. Yes. Cool. OK. Like the last time I was there, we were actually kind of stacked in terms of sound people. So I didn't I didn't need to do that much. Yeah. And so I ended up sitting in the back of the room and I was just sitting on the floor next to the drink cooler and reading one of the Oddfellas books that they had lying around. Yes, yes. There's so much. It was like one of the like actually like the history book that Zach has recommended a few times. I did actually listen to the the episode that you did with them. And that was honestly one of my last like like straws for just being like, all right, I know I think this is for me. Say that conversation was so interesting. Just hearing hearing how they talk about it specifically and the way that they describe it. It's just like it's it's so clear that it would like not not just be helpful for me, but like something I would very much enjoy and like obviously it's helpful for the community. And that's something I'm like very much trying to get more into now that I have a community like I do in Burlington. Like like I kind of thought for a long time to like to get here and to get to a place where like I had this sort of community. Yes. So like I want to get on it sooner rather than later in terms of like and putting back. Yes, joining up. Yes, say yeah, this not about you, but I'm also thinking of joining probably in July when I'm done the classes that I'm doubling up on right now. Yeah. So if you do wait another month or two, maybe we could get initiated together. Right. Yeah. Like and it's also like, you know, like like the way they were talking about how how helpful it is for if you're just like going going through stuff, you know, like not just that, it's like it's it's not like therapy. Right. But like the having that extra source of like people that you can just talk to, you know, not not even specifically asked for help, but just like people that you know you trust and are there for you, you know, like like like I I've been going through some stuff recently. And personally, I'm in a weird spot where like my life is not just in the gutter. Yeah. You know, it's like I have a lot of really good things going on right now. It's just I'm also dealing with some difficult stuff and don't want to get too too lost in that. Yeah. And so it's like it it's always important to just like reach out to people and and times like these. And and that that's definitely a thing that has got me more interested in odd fellows because like they kind of provide that. But also you get the chance to do that for other people as well. Yes. We should mention that you're helping with sound specifically at the odd fellow shows. There's so many people involved helping that are not actual members at the odd fellows that just want to help the community. Yeah. I mean, I think I've been I've been working with them doing sound stuff for maybe four months now. Um, that's crazy to think that it's just been since the beginning of the year, which by the way, we are hoping to find a time to do like a real training session where we can set stuff up, have people bring their music, like bring some instruments. Yeah. And then we can just look together and document it more, which is what I was hoping to do at the beginning of January. But honestly, the system wasn't ready. We weren't ready for that. But that'd be a great time to bring in some other people. I know are also interested, but they're like hesitant because it's a lot to jump into. Just just that's why I community vibes around the shows at odd fellows and just keeping them going. Yeah. It's people like Emma and I and yeah, and Zach and Riley and yeah, I was gonna say there was like 10 people, Andy to Andy Max. Yeah. I don't know. I'm missing other people, but there's a lot of people putting these together. There's like still so many people who have just no clue about odd fellows at all. Like never mind that they even do shows. Right. Like I'm still regularly finding random people around Burlington that I'm telling them about some show that I have or whatever. And it's people who have lived here, you know, longer than I could dream of. And they just have no clue. Yeah. I met people in their fifties born in Burlington who are like, what are the odd fellows? Yeah. It's not funny. Yeah. Yeah. That that really cool painted building. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's something that draws your eye, but also at the same time, it's just like it kind of it it just immediately creates its own mystery. And it like it makes you think it's unknowable, but it's like you could just walk in. Yeah. And people are really cool and want to hang out in a community sort of way. Yeah. Yeah. Now, we kind of talked about that. But I when I moved to Colchester was going to Haniford in the New North end. And every single time I drive by, I was doing the whiplash thing. Right. Because I'm like, what the heck is it? Like there's no big sign. It's it's all artsy and colorful. I have no idea. And then all of a sudden we're like, oh, yeah, we're doing a show. Like we're booking a show there. Right. What? So cool. Anyway, that's it. That's a go down on complete odd fellows. You know, we could talk about odd fellows forever, I think. You're unreleased albums. Are you ever going to release the unreleased albums? Or are they permanently unreleased? Well, so so the plan is slowly part of the issue is I have the ones that I've been sitting on for a little while, and then I keep writing new stuff and new albums are forming. Fair. So I had like I placed an embargo on myself with Goliath because I didn't want to break up the flow of releasing Goliath. Fair. And then part four took a year longer than expected. And once again, I'm writing that entire time. So I when I was like really finishing up Goliath 2014, really, there was already like maybe two and a half albums there that weren't Goliath. And then, yeah, it took a year. I told myself I'm not releasing anything else until Goliath comes out. Goliath finally came out late February. And so now the embargo is lifted. And I am just sitting on a smog's gold mountain of things that need to come out at like a reasonable pace to not be overwhelming and kind of like overcrowd each other. I mean, four months. But like, right. Yeah. So like, like, I'll say next up, I have a single coming out next month, actually with a show at Odd Fellows. Nice. Yes, I think I saw the poster. It's like a triple single release. Yes, it is because we were talking about putting that together. And we were just talking about what we could do theming wise. And Riley from Coven and her project is She With The Lightning. She mentioned that she had a single. We can maybe make it a single release show for her. Then Nadia also had a single. I also just have a million things that I'm sitting on. So so it just turned into like, why don't we all release something? And like, we're kind of three people who are all just sitting on stuff and need to get moving in one way or another. So I think it's kind of like great, great motivation for all of us. I know I've actually I've talked about that with Riley a lot because she's like has some sort of like perfectionist tendencies and like just kind of complicated feelings about like so far releasing stuff, putting stuff on streaming services nowadays. She like has a lot of thoughts going into this and has just been very careful with what she does put out. Yeah. But she's also trying to loosen that a little bit. And I think Nadia is maybe going through a similar thing of like trying trying to adjust to like what what just letting things go is is like for her now that she's kind of like in a different place. Right. And. I I am. Yeah, I love that I like I get to do something like that. And this is going to be like a lead in for my next release. I'll have the single coming out with the show. And it's kind of like a teaser for the EP that's that's going to come out. Maybe May. Nice. Well, yeah, you're moving along. Yeah, I'm thinking it'll it'll be the single comes out in April. Then the the EP that the single is from is in May. And then I've got a lot of stuff that I'd like honestly haven't planned out the order of it. Right. And some of them still need like finishing touches because I just get it like 90 percent finished fair. And then I just I know I can't release it yet. So I just start moving on. Yeah. And now I've got to go back and do do all the like like the little TLC. Right. But but yeah, there's I would say about six to seven unreleased projects of just like all different styles. And most of them have names. Nice. Very cool. That's so nice. I love people who make art in that sort of way where it's like I'm not going to stop. Right. Yeah. I'm just going to keep going. And like it's not like you said, you get it mostly done and you're like good enough for now. Yeah. I'm not going to stop. No, I'm not going to just sit there and like pick it apart. I'm a pick it apart person. I'm not very good about like, you know, that perfectionism where you don't want to let it go. You just keep picking. I am not the type of person that does a million revisions. I've kind of tried to put a lot of effort in it to not be that way. Yes. You can't get stuff done and be that way. Yeah. Yeah. Like like to me, the like the first performance or like take where the song is still kind of half formed and you're you're you're you're still kind of working your way through it. It's like it's very interesting to me. And and sometimes even if it's, you know, not what you would have done when you're more practiced with it, it's got like something to it. You should you should kind of respect. Right. And this is something I've gotten from the White Stripes, the Jack White work that way. Also, one of my more recent influences, Jason Molina, very much just trying to go for like the first take possible so that things are the most fresh, even if that makes them more raw. Yeah. That's also part of why I end up working so quickly, because a lot of times I'll write a song and and record it with a voice memo just so I don't forget it. Yes. And then I listen back to the voice memo and I'm like, I could just record around this. Like there was actually this song from an album that that'll be out at some point. And I've been playing this one live. It's called Bleed. But I set up for a voice memo and forgot that my phone was still connected to my Bluetooth headphones. And they were literally like across the room. So I'm playing the song and singing on an electric guitar that's not plugged in. Yeah. And it's recording through my Bluetooth headphones. And it's just like this really crunchy, kind of like almost like glitchy recording. You need sound, right. That like I would have never thought to get on my own. And it was just me like trying to not forget the song. I was like literally it was like four a.m. Yeah. And I'm like trying not to sing too loud because my roommates are asleep. And yeah, I just thought it was so like so specific and doing things that I could never recreate intentionally. I just built the whole actual studio recording off of it. Cool. Because it was kind of solid enough. And if the performance is like good enough, even if it's fresh, then you can work with it and just lean into how fresh and improvised it is. And I love always performing things different. Yeah. Like I love getting to change a song every time I do it in some way. So if I play the song and record it in a way that I'll never be able to do again because it was my first time playing it. That is that is perfect. That is completely fine by me because I don't want to play it the same way. Right. Like especially if I do it live, I don't want to try to recreate the magic. I'll just make some some new magic because that's completely fresh. Right. And and yeah, just like it's very like scattershot. And and just just like fire and move on. Cool. And and and that's definitely part of why I've ended up with so many songs and just like, OK, I guess I've recorded a whole album in two months or like come up with a whole album in two months. Right. Now I just need to get better recordings or whatever it is. The concepts come together very quickly. That's so cool. I love. Yeah, just playing the sounds the different. When you say your Bluetooth headphones, like that's so cool. That's one of those things like even it would be so hard to recreate it again. Right. If you like it and you're like, this is awesome, but I don't like this take enough. I need to do 20 more tapes. Right. Yeah. I'm going to get the same. Right. Yeah. Let me let me set up the Bluetooth headphones and try to place them in the right spot and try to like, you know, like do it do it scientifically. Like that kind of like maybe it'll work. But yeah, it sort of loses a lot. Right. Guess our term here wrong here, but that like ephemeral quality of every every musical performance only happens once. Like we can record it and we can do all these like fun artsy things to them and play it over and over again. Yeah. The actual like event of you playing that song that way. And it's the same with people who are even well rehearsed. Like it's not exactly the same every time the atmosphere or the place to play it. Like all of these things really affect those moments. So yeah, it's cool. That's really cool to hear about. Awesome. Okay. I think we're coming up on, I think we've got 45 minutes at least of like solid recordings. Yeah. Say it again. When is your next show? April. April 4th. Is that one at Radio Bean? At Radio Bean. At Radio Bean. Okay. April 4th at Radio Bean. The War Turtles. Look for it. Your Instagram and your band camp are both the War Turtles with the the don't forget the the. Yes. And this is the 64th episode. So these show notes will be at VermontTalks.com forward slash 64 for Emma's episode. Emma, is there anything else that we have forgotten or that you want to say before we wrap things up? Um, I don't care that I started young. Anyone can start making music now. Your 10,000 hours needs to start someday. I kind of get that a lot. I know I shred or whatever people say that I do. But I fullheartedly believe that any person who starts today can be better at me better than me that and at any instrument. You know, like it's just about what you do with it. So if you want to make music do it, if you want to make art do it, that's that's that's all I will include. Yes. Yes. Wise words. Okay. Thank you so much, Emma, for coming on the show and doing this fun experimental episode. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to see how this has turned out. Me too. Thanks for listening. Bye. Okay. Hit the report. Thanks so much for listening to the end of the show. Subscribe to VermontTalks on your favorite podcasting platform. You can find me on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, all over the web. Contact Becca at VermontTalks.com if you'd like to be interviewed or if you know someone who should be. Thanks so much to Jason Baker for creating the show music. The views and opinions expressed by the guests are those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of VermontTalks. Any content or statements provided by our guest are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company, individual, anyone or anything. And that's what was new in the 802. Have a great day.