WRMI 009 - Robert Hipwell // Lessons from a Top U.S. Army General

In this far-ranging discussion, General Robert Hipwell shares his story as a career soldier and officer.  It starts with his years in Vietnam on covert missions behind enemy lines to his commanding the Army base where - and when - Saddam Hussein was captured.

He shares his lessons about a harrowing close call with the enemy in Vietnam, the key things it takes (besides luck) to survive the missions he did in Nam, to what it was like to work his way up to being a top commander in the Iraqi war.

Transcript

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spk_0:   0:06
my name's Doug Greene, and I'm interviewing General Robert. Well, yeah, that's right. Who I met through Toastmasters. He's in the same Toastmasters group I'm in, and at first, when they called him the General, I thought they were just kidding. But then I found out later he really is a general and charge retired. But I don't think I've ever known a general before. And I have my own adventure stories, and I started talking with the general Robert about some of his own past experiences, both in Vietnam and Afghanistan, down and others things he's done and was fascinating. What? I'm interested in finding out the reason I want to interview Miss. He's led a really good life. He seems pretty together. All right, great guy. You know, he's If I had known he'd been in the military about from hearing and I never would have guessed it. It doesn't seem like to me too rigid and are just Yeah, he's relaxed, Easy to talk with somebody. I'm really stoked a call friend, so I know that in his work in his life, having been in Vietnam on the front lines, being in Afghanistan and all of that that he's probably had some incredible experiences where he's learned some life lessons that I hope we can pass on to the viewers that you can use in your own life. So he's in this podcast, which is called What makes him tick. Learn life lessons from extraordinary people. I see Robert as somebody who has led an extraordinary life, likely has some really incredible lessons to teach us. So, Robert, thank you for joining us.

spk_1:   1:51
You're welcome, Duct. Thanks for having me here with you today. I said awesome adventure for me to talk to him to another high spirited, adventurous person like yourself. So I think we can We gleam off each other and we could have inspire each other to talk about and learn about each other's adventures. And that kind of it's interesting to hear other people like yourself. They have such high, high threshold for adventures and zest

spk_0:   2:13
for life, as we say. Yeah, so why don't we begin in? Maybe would give the overview. First, we're going to talk about at least three phases of your life. You've mentioned there might be four. Yeah. Uh, want one myself. Okay, First of

spk_1:   2:28
all, don't thank you again for talking with me here today. I, uh, in a broad, broad, very concise way. I guess you could say I'm the son of an immigrant family, right? My father and mother were born in England. So was I came to California via Canada first, and then I went to high school in San Diego, grew up in San Diego, and during that time that the height of the Vietnam War in 68 the draft was going on. I anticipated I would get drafted and we joined the Army, signed up for three years, and all I want to do initially in the Army was to be a paratrooper. I saw a lot of movies and videos about World War Two and paratroopers and 101st Airborne. So I joined the Army to be a paratrooper, and I did join the Army, and I was, uh we went the buddy system. At that time, a movie came out called the John Wayne. The Green Berets. Remember that? It took me over the edge. I was thinking about going in the Army. San Diego is a Navy and Marine Corps environment, and my buddy in high school went in the Navy was a shore patrolman and told us all the war stories about how they treated the Marines. So I kind of got turned up by going into the Marines, joined the Army, and at the height of the Vietnam War, 1968 we had half a 1,000,000 soldiers in Vietnam, plus, so they had a huge standing army of Vietnam and they had a night 10 of 68. We lost a lot of people N CEO's first sergeants and second lieutenants. So the Army had a school set up too quickly promote sergeants and lieutenants. I went to a 90 day program at 18 years old, and I was a sergeant in 90 days at 18. As soon as I got to be a sergeant, I went to Ranger School, Airborne School and over the Vietnam. So I did a tour in Vietnam as a long range reconnaissance patrol, a sister patrol leader. There were six of us. I'm the teams on those teams. We went out 50 tow 100 miles in the enemy's area to do reconnaissance and surveillance and report back to hire of what was going on with the enemy activity, mostly along the Ashok Valley on the Ho Chi Minh Trail. So after my career from

spk_0:   4:38
Let's Go Way have quite

spk_1:   4:40
adventurous times and that I could I could tell you somewhere I'm just trying to do a quick review. So after Vietnam came back after three years and, uh, came back to San Diego, worked in the ship are with my dad for about six months. Then they ran out of contracts, got laid off, and I decided to go to England because my wife I had met during my time in the Army was British. Went to went to Great Britain for three years. We went to school at night on the G I. Bill stayed in reserve component and then, when I came back three years later, joined the California National Guard and they had a officer training program which they I was selected for, went into that Two years later, I became a lieutenant, so I worked myself up from lieutenant in the Reserve National Guard that I switched from the National Guard to the Army Reserve, and then I kept going up in Bragg, and before you know it, I'm an officer. Then I got to be captain of Special Forces. Then I got into Special Forces. US Army Green Berets was an 18 commander for 10 years. And then after that, it went into military police. And towards the latter part of my military career was I had the good fortune and hey, people I work with are very good. Was able to get promoted to brigadier General, took it command over to Iraq as a commanding general for the 3/100 military police. And we were I was in charge of the largest detainee operations in the world at that time. 20,000 detainees. Donna can't book. I'm Southern Iraq for the first part of the tour. And then they moved. We moved up north to be a task force north, so I worked in the same location as Saddam Hussein, and I was there earlier on another tour. We got the two sons, and towards the end of that tour in December of all three, we actually captured Saddam and we kept him in our compounds compounds that we kept him it up in Baghdad. So that was quite an adventurous time. But I consider my three phases in the military to be enlisted as ending as a sergeant to being an officer to being a general officer in the Army. So that's kind of three Main focuses of my life there, and subsequent to that I'm very fortunate and blessed to have a large family. My wife and I have nine Children between us. Way have seven sons and two beautiful daughters, one of which you met today and of my son. Six of my seven sons have been in the army. Three are still serving in your form to this day. One is still in Afghanistan. He's Special Forces Medic and Special Forces team sergeant in Afghanistan right now. So my sense has followed me in the military, and that was one of my ways of helping them get their education because I let my uncle pay for the education instead of their dad.

spk_0:   7:29
Sammy, I got my

spk_1:   7:30
education because I got all my education. Actually, do, as you probably know, have two PhDs, unearned PhD and an Honore PhD three master's degrees in a couple of bachelors degrees. But all that was based on the G I Bill and working through night school my entire career and having a full time job and raising a family.

spk_0:   7:49
So nobody's ever gonna convict you being an underachiever, are they? I think, Yeah, that's probably a true statement. Ah, um, so let's let's dive into. We'll come back to the later part. Now he's helping veterans, but we can dig into that later. I'm really Let's go back to this when you're in the military the first time around. Okay, You're on the forward lines. You're working on that as basically scouting operations.

spk_1:   8:20
Right? Long range reconnaissance patrols. What? What they're called.

spk_0:   8:23
So you're what you're out there to do is to find what's going on, get information, get in and get out, not get killed, Correct? And come back with the best quality information. You can write

spk_1:   8:34
radio it back and bring it back. So it was two way communications were in the field. We're always communicating to hire what we're looking at. So if they want to have what we call actionable intelligence, if we find something that higher headquarters wants to, for example, destroy, then they'll call in an air strike. Though Cohen B 52 bombers still calling artillery or whatever, but our job is to immediately report activity that we see. And periodically. And then once we get back, they debrief us as faras. The whole mission could be a 5 to 7 day mission, typically.

spk_0:   9:10
So that's the what? But let's let's stick into the house. Because I think that's the really interesting part. There, six of you you dropped in by parachute or helical

spk_1:   9:18
copter? Yeah, you Huey helicopters.

spk_0:   9:21
So they drop in right into enemy territory. All right? Yep. Yeah. And you got there. You are right. You're there

spk_1:   9:29
for the duration and use you mentioned. Our job is not to make any contact with the enemy. What? Whatever is just to be quiet, go really slow and observe and report back.

spk_0:   9:39
So talk about what that's like. How do you not get seen? How do you deal with situations where you do get seen? How do you work cohesively as a team? What makes a teamwork? What makes a team not work things like that? Okay, well, you know the day to day stuff? Sure. Just being there all through the day to day stuff

spk_1:   10:03
is a challenge. Excuse me, but that the army and those days was a draft army. So a few volunteered to be in again. It's such a zay was Ranger unit. You were. You were a volunteer, so there were more or less all wanted to be there versus a conventional infantry of it, which would be people just serving because I got drafted. So in a in a higher, um, mission unit, my higher purpose Michigan, for example, everybody volunteered to be in the shooting. So we have been, I think I mentioned earlier. I had gone to a lot of trading stateside before I was sent overseas. Uh, that's treating Ranger School, which is two months long. Re condo school, quite a few Siri's of tree before I got to be a job. Once I got there, I was assigned to a team as the assistant patrol leader as any five and was run by 86 s. So I had some see a senior person to me would I could coach teaching mentor from him. So and then we had four other people on the team that we work together. We trained while we're in the rear. We typically had 5 to 7 days out to two threes days back. So the first day we came back. We were basically refreshing and trying to get back into a situation. But the other two days were training, always working together, always knowing each other strong points of weak points so we could anticipate any problems we might have out in the field together. So we lived in the same quantity huts together. We went to chow together. We exercise

spk_0:   11:37
together ways basically, to become one,

spk_1:   11:40
become a cohesive unit, right?

spk_0:   11:42
Yeah, so that but so I get that part. So you're out there. It sounds like one of the things that really helps is the amount of training you. Basically, when the situation comes, you already have a pre You've got a plan Es

spk_1:   11:57
eso Ponsonby. Standard operating procedure. Okay. Yeah, right. So we have Ah, we practice. We rehearsed. If we get ambushed from the right side, what happens when we get ambushed from the left side? What happens? So we practise and rehearse that before we go out to the field. But whatever happens out there is gonna be unique. But we have scenarios for Smitty opportunities that might come our way as we can.

spk_0:   12:20
So, having that pre plants stand the standard operating procedure talk about the value of that. Well, I think that it's it's It has

spk_1:   12:33
to be ingrained in your muscle memory so that if something happens in the field, you don't have to think about it. Hey, what's happening is it's a life or death situation. So you have to make decisions based on what's coming at you to negate that situation and be victorious and come through and get your mission completed and get you all out of there safely.

spk_0:   12:55
So talk about that reason. One reason I'm asking about this. There was a moment when I was I in a motorcycle accident. I hit an antelope at 70 miles an hour. Oh, head on, and I had recently taken an advanced motorcycle driving class, and I remember they talked about the patches and it was like You're looking at these different forces happening forward for sideway for us, And the idea is, you don't want to change your movement patch or else you're going down. So if you go, you want to stay on the straight line, keep going in a straight line, and don't do anything that's gonna mess that up if you can, and when I hit the analyst. There was just this moment of, you know, kind of like Oh shit. But then that the lessons learned from that advanced writing class kind of dropped into place carried over here. It was like, OK, don't do anything. Don't turn, Don't do something stupid. Don't hit the brakes if you've got a straight line And I knew to ride that straight line on That's what saved my life, probably, or at least from you know, I didn't drop the bike. Wow. The antelope went underneath the bike, locked up the rear wheel and we slid for 150 feet, then issued him off and then the bike took off. You know, it was because the throttle was locked on high right and just a series of maneuvers I made that came automatically. Well, I'm assuming and remember how cool that was that it happened. And I can imagine the in your situation that's amplified by 100. When there's people all around you, there's bullets whizzing by and yeah, I imagine so. What is the talk about what the feeling is like when you actually move into response mode, even feel anything any thinking about anything just happen automatically it

spk_1:   14:44
more or less. Like you said, it happens automatically instinctively. Its sight analogy, like you mentioned, is into a automobile or a motorcycle accident where things happen instantaneously and you start to think about a blazer and reflect. What did I do? How could I have done it better? What about this? What about that? So, in a combat situation, you're trained to expect certain scenarios your train and train and train somewhere and rehearse and trade. So when something does happen, you automatically go into reflex mode and you react based on your reflexes or muscle memory. And then later, when things calm down to a certain extent that you start thinking about, you know, logically and plus you remember, as most combat is engaged by people that air young under 25 for example, I was 18. Matt Junior's old So and when respect, you almost feel bulletproof, right?

spk_0:   15:40
The fear of dying is not there like

spk_1:   15:41
it is when you get a little older.

spk_0:   15:43
You Oh, man, what was I thinking? What was that? Why would I do that?

spk_1:   15:47
Right. So you got that that young eager. That won't happen to me. thought and that you're bulletproof, for one thing, and then you But other people on other teams are getting killed and wounded. You know that that possibility is available to happen to you. However, you think because of your training, your expertise and your confidence in the men around you that they're gonna look after you're back and you're gonna look after their back, that you're gonna be fine.

spk_0:   16:15
So it's not like part of it. This is just getting out of your own way, right? And the training really teaches you how to do that, That thinking part that gets in there that can set up that that extra little bit of time that could make the difference between life and death. It's kind of removed because, you know, instinctively what? Todo right. Um, so talk about working as a unit there, six of you there. It's one thing if you're just responding on your own. But the work is a group in that weighs, like taking it to another level. So you trained together? I assume they're sort of these. I don't know. Maybe you learn how, whether you mentioned that they're strong story, each guy has their strengths and weaknesses, right? And you probably rearrange yourselves or the energetic ce of the group so that your each playing to your strengths, like a guy that shoots best on the right side. Right next. Artie's, That's where he goes, Right? Thing like that,

spk_1:   17:06
for example, have a left handed shooter. So I would most of the time guard the right side of the trail because my weapon would be at the ready position so I could bring it up so I would be focused on the right side. After all, right handed shooter would have his weapon slung for the left hand side so he could look left inside the trail. But, for example, before we go out even before we go out in the field, there's a 2 to 3 day preparation period. Well, in the jungle, everything smells dirty, rotten and smelly, right? Yeah. So once we get our mission assigned to us, we stopped taking showers. We stop brushing our teeth, we stop putting any food who smells on us. So we're already sticking by the time we go out

spk_0:   17:44
in the field.

spk_1:   17:45
Right? So we because you can your senses really get alerted when you're out in the field, they go to a higher level. You could smell things in the jungle that you wouldn't spell going back there after three days. She smells so bad. You really don't smell yourself anymore, huh? And then we we thoroughly look at our equipment, make sure we don't have any rattles. Anything that makes metallic sounds. For example, on our weapons, on the dust cover of our weapons, we taped a cigarette butt to the dust cover of our weapon in case we had to pull a weapon back to cock it. Er, move it, then it wouldn't make it a metallic sound when the dust cover opened up. So we go through and and we tape things down. We shake and inspect each other. We have. We take all our water with us. We have bladders of water. And if somebody opens a canteen, we pass it around the group. We all drink the same canteen water so we don't have any movement of waters making noise while we're moving on her trails, we typically went very slow. We moved for 50 minutes and stop for 10 minutes to catch your breath. And so we wouldn't get caught in the Triple Canopy jungle and try and get frustrated to move and make noise. Move for 50 minutes, rest for 10. And at night, one of us at all times was awake. So we take turns. We get into a wagon, we all sort of environment. We passed the radio. You would have it from one day to the next person to have it from 2 to 3 and so on and so on. On our higher headquarters every hour we had to come on the phone and listen. We wouldn't talk. We would never talk out in the field. It's always a whisper or hand and arm signals. So we had to do that. So at night time are our headquarters would call us. They usually have 5 to 6 teams out there in the in the environment, and they would call us up and say our team was to want to. They say, Team one to team went to If your situation is negative, Break squelch twice. So all we had to do was underhand receiver. Just go so we wouldn't have to talk. So they knew that we were okay, and that was our s o p. That everything was OK with us. And if we best three consecutive situation reports that they figure the worst and they'd send a reaction team out to our location, our last known location, too, they would anticipate that we have been either killed or captured.

spk_0:   20:10
Now, this is before GPS is were in use. Well, you know exactly where you were way before GPS. Yeah, So they they generally new on the map like Okay, they're covering the 7500 miles. They're moving it.

spk_1:   20:24
Oh, no, no. It's way smaller than that. They had, like, six teams out in the area. We had maybe at the most three or four miles box on the map grid squares. So we had three or four miles that we would travel through. We've set up. We maybe move a mile a day from one location to the other, and slowly we would never stay in the same spot twice. We would never sleep in the same area twice. And when we camped at night, just in case they had observed us and we didn't know that we would just before dusk we would set up, sit down and be quiet and prepared to move to another perfect place. When it got dark, we would leave the last place that we're at and go to another place for the night. So if someone saw us in the jungle, they go, Oh, there, over there by those trees. Once I got start, we would slowly and quietly move to another location and set up there for the night and start the whole sequence over again. And only one of us would eat at a time so we don't ever want to be compromised. We never had any campfires resolved. Long race rations were you put water in a condensed food packet and eat that way and weak many times had we're able to observe and report from enemy activity based on their cooking and their campfire smells that we could smell their food coming down down wind to us

spk_0:   21:45
because so did you ever have You have to face off with the enemy from time to time? Uh, yes, we did it like quite an exciting adventure. To tell you the truth,

spk_1:   22:00
what adventure that really sticks out in the most predominant adventure was on one mission. We Iran, on our second day, we were on a we were monitoring. We never actually go in the top of a trail. But there was a high speed trail dirt trail that the enemy would use as resupply trail. So we walk along 10 to 15 yards to the side of each trail and observe the trail at the top. So we were paralleling this high speed drill on about our second day in, and we heard some enemy activity on the trail. So we way quietly got down in the crotch position, pulled our weapons up, and we're so trained that we're not to allow we're not allowed to engage fire. Arrest our team commander, Team Sergeant engages. He's the one that initiates the fire. So no one, if they get afraid, they don't pull the guiding and compromise everybody's So anyway, we're all we hear these enemy coming down the trail. We all have our weapons up. We're all camouflaged up. We're all sweaty and we all I could see the people started walking through the trail. They had a flank guard on both sides of their patrol and the flank guard didn't see us. But he happened to come about 10 feet from us. And then he had to relieve himself,

spk_0:   23:15
Had his a k

spk_1:   23:16
47 slung over his shoulder down on the ground, started relieve himself in our direction, and he caught our eyes and we got his eyes. He knew the second he saw us, that we were all point our weapons right on his chest. And he knew. And this is all instantaneous. And he knew that if he even tried to pick up this weapon, he'd be dead before he could even raise it. Halfway is, we had our weapons on automatic ready to engage, waiting for our team, sergeant to engage. We didn't engage that time, so he kind of looked at us. He saw what was going on. He slowly stepped up. His parents backed up to the drill and started yelling in Vietnamese. And then the whole column of Vietnamese ran down the trail and we still were there waiting. We didn't engage them at that point. They got down the trail, and our team sergeant said, Basically, give us the heist and you get the hell out of there. So as soon as we got soon as we decided to get out of there. All help broke loose. They came that they started to attack us, right? There was about 28 to 30 that we could imagine. We counted. So it must have been more than that. So 28 or 30 guys were attacking us. So we took off in the opposite direction, and, uh, and they were in pursuit of us. So it was. Firefight erupted. Fortunately, none of us were shot, ambushed or, um, hurt by hand grenades or anything else. We're able to evade the enemy. After about four hours, we put so much distance between us and them that we were able to get detached from them where we were in Triple Canopy jungle. We couldn't land a helicopter. We told higher, and they're sent out Rescue party to help us. But the Triple Canopy jungle they couldn't land the helicopter anywhere else. So we we found a spot that would not so densely populated. We put our claim words on the ground, climber minds and we blew a hole in the canopy so

spk_0:   25:13
that the helicopters could lower ropes down,

spk_1:   25:16
could lower ropes down. So they did. Three helicopters came over dropped ropes in I'll either side helicopter. We had Swiss seat set up that we could tie around her waist with that receipt with the

spk_0:   25:28
A bow line, a bullet right about

spk_1:   25:30
life. So they hoisted us out of the jungle two at a time, going upside down, and they took us to the edge valley about an hour away. So we're hanging upside down, this helicopter spinning around in circles as we were taken out of the jungle. We all survived that mission, and it was It was August the 6th 1970 And to this day, we have we communicate with each other. We call that upside down day, so ah, snapping way have the rope hooked into the snapping. We all carry six foot of rope and snapping just for those situations in case we have to get extracted it. The last

spk_0:   26:13
missing athletes, like a *** carabiner

spk_1:   26:15
carabiner recorded cineplex in your care abuse. But we kept all our equipment. We we were not gonna leave any equipment behind. Said the enemy could use against us or any of our troops. So we took all our backpacks and soon as we got past the first layer of trees were inverted because over heavy backpacks upside down, spinning circles underneath the helicopter. When they did land, we were so disoriented and upside down we couldn't get up the

spk_0:   26:43
door. Gunners had to come

spk_1:   26:44
over and grab us A pours into the aircraft to give us the hell out of there.

spk_0:   26:49
So from that period of time, what are the three biggest lessons you could pass on?

spk_1:   26:54
Well, the biggest lesson. As teamwork matters, you're not there for your own personal safety year. Therefore, your buddy next to you. So you go in as a team. You come out as a team, you work together as a team, and if the team succeed, you succeed right, and you do lose friends along the way through through combat, through sickness or illness. But some, you know, the court team 45 members stays together, but they do rotate in between from that. So I would say teamwork is the core. Having to know your strengths and weaknesses and know your buddy strengths and weaknesses is another important aspect of that and in motivation and drive. Why you doing this right? You're doing it for the unit and to support theater in their unit mission. So those who have three big things.

spk_0:   27:43
So the motivation talk about that a little bit. Yeah. So in addition to those three

spk_1:   27:48
elements of lessons learned of looking after body and your body, they're looking after you completed the mission. And having focus is that the next part of it I think is very important is that the human body can do a lot more than most people ever anticipated can do right instead of the normal things. If you put your body, you tasked your body not a one time thing, but you can if you need to. But in the training that leads up to that, you put your body to a very lot of extremes, right? For lack of sleep, physical endurance, huh? A lot of physical demands on your body and your body can take it for the most part. Unless you don't, you don't get to the failure point, But going to Ranger school, we have limited sleep. You have limited food, you walk equivalent of 200 miles in two months. Europe most of the night, so similar situation in combat. And I know from my experience in Vietnam and my experience in Iraq and Afghanistan, the higher you are in rank, typically, the less sleep you get at night, General says. Hole when they're in combat, sleep less than four hours a night. That's the demand you put on your body because you need the attire meant focusing attention to do a myriad of duties and tasks and functions. So the demands you put on the human body you can train your body to do what we would think to be superhuman things for the most part. But it's a matter of training the bat, the body up, and getting used to that and enduring those long terms,

spk_0:   29:21
is there. Uh, I'm really curious about four hours sleep part. Is there a point at which you kind of have to like you could maybe do that for a month or two or three, and then at some point, it's like you just sleep solid for 40 days in a row? Well, yeah, that's a good point. Well, it comes and

spk_1:   29:36
goes, actually, having been having had six combat tours from Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq, uh, higher up. I worked with generals who works on the general staff, and I worked for the general in Iraq with the war first kicked off in 2003 he got 2 to 3 hours a night. He did this for at least six months. Straight wound. She he'd go to bed like one o'clock in the morning. Hey, be back in the office by four o'clock in the morning at the latest, so you could do that. If the situation is demands it and you need to perform at that level, you could do that almost indefinitely. But at some point, like General Stan McChrystal, for example, he slept less than four hours a night. He ate only one meal a day when the Rolling Stone reporter was attached to him and

spk_0:   30:27
watched him around. Hey, he

spk_1:   30:30
never He was with her for like six weeks solid in the only song, Eat twice in that six week period. Eat one meal a day so and he slept less than four hours a day. So he's high energy person. He's motivated. He's self driven. He's responsible for a lot of men's lives, a lot of men and women's lives. So he takes his job

spk_0:   30:50
seriously. So here's a question. Do you think that some you. The nature versus nurture question is that something that he already had, that maybe others don't. And maybe he rose up through the ranks in part because he just have that capacity to keep going and going and going. Where's others? Might not find it, Or is that something that he developed along the way? There's a combination. I think

spk_1:   31:13
it's a combination of both. Knowing Stan McChrystal was both a Ranger and Special Forces officer private before becoming a general. And they push your moat, your physical extremes, your mental extremes and you're trained. And as you move up in the military, like in civilian world, you have more responsibility and more things that you're responsible for. So you're expected work, more expectations. So it's kind of a train thing, part of its being trained and part of it's being if you can't make this in the military, like in civilian world, if you can't make it, you don't get promoted.

spk_0:   31:45
Yeah, there's a filtering process that's going on here, and

spk_1:   31:48
there's certain requirements. Physical requirement, mental component to that, an educational comported the military. You have to have military classes, education to move up. You have to have physical standards, you have to be able to shoot accurately, have to a lot of different standards in order to move up.

spk_0:   32:05
Okay, let's go on to the next phase in your military career, which is sorry that

spk_1:   32:12
the officer face after bed knob. I got a reserve commission in the state of California as a from O. C s California Military Academy to become a lieutenant. So it's a two year program. Join the National Guard in San Diego and for two years, which was one weekend a month into summer camps. At the end of the second summer camp, you're commissioned as a dual commission. You get a State of California commission and you get a federal commission simultaneous to that. So they meet all the standards of the army. However, you're working for it, the state governor and except for times of emergency and we know in California, for example, we have four seasons fires, floods, earthquakes and riots.

spk_0:   32:56
So if the governor, the Germans,

spk_1:   32:58
that he needs assistance because you don't have the resource is put out fires or there's a flood that they can't deal with, orders are right in L. A or anywhere else in the state that the state's resource is can't handle. He'll call in federal assistance. Right. So, uh, so you get a dual commission, and most of time you work for the state governor in any state. But then there are times when you work for the federal like, for example, in Desert Storm. And in most recent, in 2003 in Iraq, at 1.53% of the troops on the ground were reserve component, either National Guard to Reserve component, because the active duty strength was not there in numbers like a wisdom will work, too. We had 150,000 troops on the ground at the peak of Iraqi second record surge. The surge on and then we 53% of the troops reserve components were that that could be good and bad, because, as we saw on the bad side of that, Abou grab came out of that. And that was the debacle from The View from I won't from the Iraq War. And that was that was a reserve component military police unit out of New York that that got disbanded and got disheartened. I was there at Abou grab. I was a pro verse marshall for Iraq during that period. I kept advising my generals We need to get out there, provide these guys more. Resource is And it was really a hell hole out there. But the general told me, Hey, Bob, there's a lot of hellholes in Iraq, so we'll deal with that when we come to it. But either case Abou grab happened, and that was a reserve component unit that wasn't didn't have the leadership and experience that many, many years. It takes like an active component to get to that level. They were called up six months before the worst started. They extended them over and there and Iraq for another 90 days, and their morale went south and the leadership was up to speed to two head of the mission.

spk_0:   34:58
If you could give that group advice now, um, not maybe not the group, but the people that I don't know how How could it have been done differently? The

spk_1:   35:08
situation in Abou

spk_0:   35:09
Yeah, well, we're talking about a scenario that went south now.

spk_1:   35:13
Yeah, in Abou. Well, Abou is is a hotbed for insurgency. It's close to Ramadi and Fallujah. it's within 20 minutes to 1/2 hour at the most, so they would come and attack it almost every day. Drop mortars in drop by borders, have the back of a small truck, then get back on the road and leave. So it was attacked at one time. I had lunch two days ago with a friend of mine was in Abba with me. He flew in from out of town on a business trip, and we were reminiscing about that, and it went for 39 people were killed and 115 were killed in one attack. These attacks happened almost daily in Abou Grab Prison, which is about a 40 acre complex with high walls around it. They would lob mortars in artillery, rounds him on occasion, but mostly in ward rounds, and do it once in a while. A ground attack, while the resource is they had there weren't trained for external protection. An MP unit like added strain for internal protection and security detainees and prisoners of war if there is any,

spk_0:   36:15
so all of a sudden you have a vulnerability and I wanted me. That seems to be very quick, adapting to to weaken opportunity.

spk_1:   36:22
Just like any war. They look for a weakness and they try to exploit the weakness. And in that situation, there wasn't enough ground forces on the outside to protect the environment fully and as we had gone into, had Operation Iraqi freedom with less troops than we normally do, I would say, because I think the Department of Defense Rumsfeld whole philosophy and I can sum Rumsfeld's whole philosophy up in six words. And my my interpretation is more toys Les boys outsource it. So once again, more toys Les boys outsources, meaning he wanted to use high tech weapons to supplement the regular trigger pullers. So we only had 100 50,000 troops on the ground and outsource it. We had contractors like Blackwater. We had cabe yard, $2 dining facilities and maintenance and upkeep inside the operating basis, and then so more toys. He wanted us to use all these high tech keep the government contractors in business, which would also help soldiers, obviously. But I still think, for example, as a military police officer, he wanted us to use ah hi tech equipment to smell for explosive devices where we had dogs. Dogs work, find bomb sniffing dogs. But there were

spk_0:   37:49
always not broken. Don't fix. That's not right.

spk_1:   37:52
We have Bluetooth, Bluetooth. We have blue force trackers We talked about in Vietnam. We didn't have Blue force trackers will boost for its tractors or what they're for. Four says they contract aircraft in the air. Well, Blue Force trackers were weren't at the evolution where all the troops and all the vehicles. Adam, when we initially started, we got the Blue Force Tracker so we could track her own units. But we didn't have them all at the time. We use drones to look around our perimeter and see out, so a lot of the technology was there. But the bottom line is you have to have boots on the ground in order to sustain and maintain victory. You can't do it as a drive by drop bombs and blow up the enemy's resource is and key locations.

spk_0:   38:39
Um, okay, so going on into this next phase, sort of your leadership. Um, would you describe your next face? So you're well, I I know that there's the general phase, but that's not this media re phase in between.

spk_1:   38:56
Well, the to get to General. You start in the officer ranks. There are very rare occasions where you get direct commission, like happens in Vietnam. The sergeants, the officers get killed and even a war to the officers get killed off in the battle. And they give you as a senior Seo

spk_0:   39:15
address. Yeah, right

spk_1:   39:18
to move up the chain of command. So you get a commission, but then you still have to meet the standards of that rank in that level when the mercury to move up, whether it's educational, of military standards, voter education, firing your weapon, physical standards have all that type of thing. So he start office, either enlisted or an officer. So I done the enlisted time. I branched into the moved into the officer environment, and we moved up the chain from company level, which is the 1st 3 levels of officer too, huh? Battalion level.

spk_0:   39:56
How many people in a battalion

spk_1:   39:58
thes days could be 800 to 1000. So it's 800 to a bouncer in a battalion

spk_0:   40:04
and the level below that squadron company company Cryonics.

spk_1:   40:07
So company is anywhere. Ah, ballpark figures 200 people with a company. It could be what 80 could be two twenties.

spk_0:   40:13
There's four companies that make up of the town.

spk_1:   40:15
Usually usually that sometimes if the army is going to extra strong, they'll have five. And have, ah have tuba ties that reserve three. But time's up front sort of speak. Okay, So the child was a a brigade commander. In my last tour, I had a brigade staff and I had five battalions that I was responsible for. Each of us battalions had companies and troops that completed their mission.

spk_0:   40:44
So what are some of the lessons of leadership you got along the way? And how did you grow into leaders? Did it to come naturally to you? Did you have to? I mean, you're you're having to make some decisions where you know people are gonna get injured and die, and yeah, yeah, of course. And so how do you how? I guess so There's two parts of that question. One is sort of just there's a nutrition right of the people that do and don't make good leaders. You rose up through the ranks as one that does lead well. So what were the qualities that you see both in yourself? and in others like you that make good leaders and can rise through the ranks. And then also, how do you sit with those kinds of decisions where you know people are gonna die and you're sending people out to do stuff that just isn't? You know what? Victory is measured in a different way than I corporate bottom line, like Cisco,

spk_1:   41:38
right? Well, and one respect and more humor. Since the Army is like the Boy Scouts, right, you're always gonna have leadership adult leadership, while in the military you always have someone that's higher ranking than you. So we have somebody that your report to they coach, teach, mentor and advise you, and they get at least at the minimum annual report from them. Just like in corporate America, where they tell you what your strengths and weaknesses aren't. You go in before you even start your job and get a counseling from that senior person that your report do.

spk_0:   42:09
So there's a really good mentoring program. Slice pretty good,

spk_1:   42:12
pretty good men tree. However, you might not have day today and interaction with that person and maybe spotty, especially in a combat environment. You're in one location they're in a different location. But you know what their expectations is. The commander above you has his commanders, objectives that he wants you to accomplish, like in corporate America. So you make sure that you accomplish the commander's objectives above you. You get coached, teached and mentored, uh, by that person.

spk_0:   42:40
So as a kid, were you somebody that seemed to leave pretty naturally. Anyway, two people kind of want to follow you and well, yeah, I mean, people have that ability, as some people

spk_1:   42:50
do. I typically I'm thinking back on it. Not necessarily. I was more happy go. Lucky kind of guy in high school, I was an average kid in high school, but excelled when I got to college. It was motivated because I had already been to Vietnam. I had seen, you know, the good and the bad of a man, and actually came back from Vietnam with survivor guilt. My my kind of ptsd from Vietnam with survivor guilt. I never got wounded in Vietnam. I saw a lot of lot of carnage in Vietnam. For example, one of the missions that we went on they put my jeans on this hilltop and they put another six man team on another hilt up a couple of miles away. And then within two days, that whole team was annihilated. They were just none of them came back life, right? And you think about that leader that could have easily have been switched right? They could have put of us on that hilltop and put them on our health up. And we could have all been killed in that compact. So reflect that was May the 11th 1970 that they still six in my mind. So those six guys that came back for my age, my peers and I tried to leave my life knowing that that they didn't have the opportunity to move forward in their life. So, in a sense, I was I had survivor guilt. That Why am I still here? Why, what? What? Scott's mission for me. Why am I still on the earth? Right. So I tried to live my life somewhat with they with the knowledge knowing that these six men had had been able to come out of it alive. So I was always trying to do the right thing, right? Just like in the movie saving private

spk_0:   44:28
Ryan. Yeah, I was just thinking you're on

spk_1:   44:29
the same side of sword scenario.

spk_0:   44:32
Make it a life with live and make it right with living men

spk_1:   44:35
have died. And throughout our history and the history of mankind, people lay down their life for us so we could live the life that we're not living. So I tried to make my life incense to pay back for those six men. Not just so six men because we lost more than that. But that was that six, the

spk_0:   44:53
one that really hit D

spk_1:   44:54
The ones had deep for me.

spk_0:   44:55
So? So it gives you a renewed sense of purpose on there too, right? It sure does. Um, Did I want to talk about purpose? One question I want to get, too. Before we go into that, though, is were you involved in a lot of team sports when you were a kid? Team sports are just teamed in situation. Yeah,

spk_1:   45:14
well, not sports as much. I was in the band in high school. I played in the marching band in high school. I played football. And, um, I was in that like like you. I was in the dirt biking and water biking. So I was both in team sports, from football and from I like baseball. I was My dad was big in baseball, so I was always the four cents. We're all in little League. So we grew up through the little Jane and off my six times played in Little League because I was her coach, their manager and or umpire and

spk_0:   45:48
different, you say Yes. So they were questioning the the response. I was looking for him. He provided it is that you had been in team situations when you were a kid and growing up where you were comfortable in it. Yeah, some people like myself. This is where I kind of diverged from that I had. I had a bad experience in Little League and there was actually a key point where I said I would. I'll never get involved with a team sport again. And that's when I got into cross country running and, you know, sort of so white water kayaking. And you know, all these sports that you do on your own right? So there's nobody else that has to take consequences for your how you are in there and saying for me, and it's had a deep impact and, you know, both positive and negative way on my life. You came in a place of comfort. I mean, just it was just a natural thing to be a part of a team where there was a band or football or, you know, as a manager for the teams and stuff. So that was when I was curious about, um Let's go back to ah, purpose. Um, so I would love to finish up this general part too, though let's finish up the general come back to purpose to have enough time. Sure. Okay, So as a general, you're up there, You playing both of political kind of dance, You know, the amount of things you have to juggle grows exponentially, right? It's not just about Paula about war anymore. It's about all these things that you're managing. And how do you kind of expand your capacity or how how is your capacity expanded as you kept rising up, and especially the general level? What new qualities did you have in yourself that enabled you to do that that you picked up blowing away?

spk_1:   47:41
Okay, well, as a reserve component, general was being different than an active component general, which we're not. We are a community based organization versus institutional where I'm not on a military base. I have close proximity to my staff and my people as reserve component. I was in charge of the unit that was in a Michigan extra. Michigan and I had outlying units in 17 states. So and the reality is, and I told people for that three plus years I was brigade commander. My car spent more time in the long term parking lot

spk_0:   48:17
at the

spk_1:   48:17
airport that it did on my driveway because it would be typical for I would be gone 567 days in a row, be home for a couple days and took off again because I was either working with higher headquarters at a conference at training session or going to my subordinate units working with them, helping them coaching, teaching, mentoring, might junior leaders so they could be effective in their missions because if they're not successful, we're not six Expo, so it's kind of a teamwork, and that's a kind of a built thing. You go, you get trained at yourself and then you go out and you implement the dream that you've got. The Army is very big in the leadership, and they trained for a leadership. They have NGO leaders. They have officer leader. Every level of military has a certain level of expectation of training that goes with to be a leader.

spk_0:   49:07
Okay, So when your time of general was actually spent stateside

spk_1:   49:12
for the most part, except for the support of a 400 days that we were assigned to travel to Iraq and do my mission in Iraq, sir, my whole unit was activated from the reserve component out of Michigan. And in fact, the Army was so short. Army Reserve was so short of troops at the time because we're about eight years into the war that we're only 50% where they have to draw in people from from cross level people in tow. I my unit from other units so that we can go over and complete our mission. So we around 400 day orders from what over the Iraq came back, and then about 50% of it went back to their their own unit and the rest of the state in Detroit.

spk_0:   49:52
So you wanna talk about that Iraq piece. Is there something special to be gleaned from your experience there? Uh, you brought Hussain in right? And watching him what was?

spk_1:   50:03
And then we also have the the the high level detainees. The pack of 55. The you have been Dekker fit defying that. So we had those in our custody. Saddam Hussein. Us always had physical custody of him, even though jurisdiction wise. And it was the Iraqi government that told us, you know, take him to Iraqi High Tribunal on Saturday because he's going to go to court. So we would You're transporting the court, bringing back. We get haircuts. We helped clean and bathe them and and all that And towards the end, actually, Saddam tried to warm up as he typically had tried to warm up to the people that were keeping him in custody. And he wrote poetry every night so he'd write poetry. And then the next morning he would give it to the soldier or talk, tell a soldier is poetry and then they would take that poetry and keep it as a collector's item. After a while, they they shut that off because they didn't want him to get too friendly with troops, for example, when e didn't want to get get that. So he wrote the poetry, but he kept it to himself, and he also had a a monthly allotment of Cuban cigars, So he was given Cuban cigars. After a while, he was a lot of visitors in foreign dignitaries from other countries, and family member said he would have somebody come into to talk with him and sit. Is his area where he was and they'd sit, have a smoke and talk, and then

spk_0:   51:34
they would leave. Do you remember most about the challenges of watching over a high level, uh, person like him prisoner Anything

spk_1:   51:48
from Saddam? No, because he was in a remote secret location and worst of Doblas was in a bombed out area when we initially had the shock and awe phase. Yeah, we bombed a lot. Actually. Saddam had 65 palaces, presidential palaces in Iraq that were huge 3 to 4 stories. I've probably seen pictures had gold inlaid toilets on our Ming's and gold inlaid doors, and all the money and expense went for him and his cronies and example was he had 24 hospitals in the whole country of 26 million people. And he had 65. Presidential Palace is so he can see, and only about 1/3 of Baghdad population of six million people had plumbed in electricity and power. So he, they they had the resource is to put power in for everybody. But it wasn't on. That was on him and his cronies and people that they wanted to him to stay in power.

spk_0:   52:46
Let's go back to purpose. Um, you found So you were talking about how the people on the next hill over I didn't make it. And now it impacted you very deeply. And you've made a decision at that point at some level, really deep level that you were gonna live your life as What's the right word? I don't know. Make it a life worth living

spk_1:   53:13
A life worth living right? You have a good life and leave do the most I could in the time allotted for me to make up for the fact that at least those six guys weren't able to move forward their life, they weren't able to have a family, have a job, contribute to society.

spk_0:   53:29
So this is kind of a p s teach PTSD moment for you. Yeah, right. So describe what that felt like, what the experience was like not just the outer part, but the inner part that really, I believe, is what probably was the motivation then drove you to do because you it's not something you think, OK, you don't think that right through I'm gonna make it a life worth living. It's a deep in trench feeling that comes up correct and maybe describe that in a way that other people that are facing something similar might understand and give them hope to get through their own experience like that.

spk_1:   54:07
Right? But I think you have a good sense where that Doug, it's not something you think about. It's not something that you reflect back on. It's kind of ingrained in Europe a point and it overtime. There's quiet times in your life when you think, Hey, what can I be doing? For example, getting up early, get up at four in the morning and do physical training to push ups, do 45 mile runs before the sun even gets up and go to school at night. All my degrees were were down that night school. I had got up four o'clock in the morning. I went to the gym. Did running, went to the office when I was in Reserve reported was in civilian world. Came home, had a had a large family. I was involved in my kids schooling involved with their activities after school baseball scouting. So I kept me busy. I'd rather be busy than bored. So so And I go to school two nights a week. And when I graduated from school 11 years later, I tought night school for another 10 years. I was teaching night school at the graduate and undergraduate level, so I taught at school two nights a week.

spk_0:   55:16
Let's go back, though to that exit that experience that single experience of the of your people that she knew our you know, the company that was just right over on the next hill That didn't make it. How that what was that journey like just that specific journey going in. How long did it last? What? You know, inside where you were like a where it had it was kind of working its way through you inside. And then finally it it kind of came out express itself. And, like, I'm gonna make this a life worth living,

spk_1:   55:49
I don't think it was a mental thought process. It was just like any time there's a crisis in life that you experience you later. You reflect about it. What if I'd done this? What if I'd done that? What if this happened? What did that happen? So you kind of internally reflect and it happens in a short period of time, and then he ingrained it inside you and say, You know, that could have been me. It could have been us. So, you know, take this opportunity because you've got another fresh day to start with. You might not have that day tomorrow. So accomplished and do as much as you can today to enrich your life, give back to society and help those around you.

spk_0:   56:30
Yeah, there's in my own experience of going through that dark place. When I lost a lot of my vision, it felt like they were sort of the dark night of the soul right kind of way. I've heard it described it. There's a sensation for me. There was a sensation of, and it was like combination of hopelessness and an emptiness like this. And it was trying to just, you know, actually trying to point to where it Woz where I actually felt the sensations of it. Because it's a body felt thing. Uh um And then it comes and it's a natural part of grieving. I think, uh, I don't know. I'm always curious about this area, right. You obviously came through it empowered, right? Um,

spk_1:   57:20
where I met I can understand what you're saying, but I don't think it was. Had a physical manifestation inside me in terms of I was hurt here. I was heartbroken or I had mental. Uh huh. Depression. Uh, conversely, on the other side, I think I knew I had to keep myself busy. I didn't want a lot of downtime because three old is saying idle mind Is the devil's workshop sort of speak what it always keep busy and always keep active, read books, go to school, engage with people talked with people, Just keep keep myself busy. So rather than have that and I did have quiet times, of course, one of the things I did enjoy was getting on my dirt bike and traveling, not extensively, but traveling out in the woods and shot by border. Cycle down and just sit and reflect and think about, you know, my life, where I'm going and what I want to do.

spk_0:   58:21
Busy, not bored because, you know, that's a really good yeah. In fact, it's if you were to have three suggestions for people looking for purpose, maybe in their later part of their life, what could you pass on from your own experience? So you're living your purpose now, in part anyway, by helping veterans

spk_1:   58:44
Correct? Yeah. Um, and I'm in the board on the board of four Veterans Service organizations in a support, a couple other ones. I have a passion to help veterans because they've given so much to our country. In fact, I have a low saying that I say the most of our veterans groups that have been, too, is that you, as a veteran, has given war to our country. When you look at yourself in the morning and shaving or looking in the mirror, you could look in there, know that you've given more to your country and you will ever take back, because less than 1% of our population of 350 million people are in the military. Less than three million people are on active or reserve component military. So less than 1% of our U. S population has is serving in the military. So, you know, they have given a lot for us. They paid the price and their families have paid the price. The soldiers that were killed and didn't come back, they left families behind. They left wife's behind. So the family has to pick up him and move on without their loved ones.

spk_0:   59:47
And what is the reward you get within yourself for supporting like that? I mean, obviously there's got to be the part that drives you to do it. Um, So what? What's Thea? What's the experience for you?

spk_1:   1:0:04
The experiences I feel I'm at a point in my life where I can help people, uh, give back in my community and get back to people that that may have not had the advantage of having the experiences I had and the ability to do things that I have so sharing some of my experience in my my past and my support for those people can in their community can help them. Mmm. So and similarly rather than a lot of times if you have some, like PTSD issues, you go to the D A. For example, when you talk to a therapist or somebody who is very trained and very verse at what they're doing, but they don't necessarily have the same experiences because they may not be observed in the military, for example. So having been there, done that, I could talk from experience about that, Um, braggadocious. But I could talk similarly, you know, almost like the same tribe were from the same tribe. So we've had similar experiences. Your experience will be different than mine, obviously, even if we did the same mission that we can relate to each other. So I guess people can relate to my experiences because I've done, you know,

spk_0:   1:1:19
you're similar experiences have been there, done that. I know the feeling. And when you reach out to somebody like that, um, it opens up, it opens up the door for somebody. It brings some spaciousness and some light into a place of my own experience now that I'm passing on. But it gives hope, right? It's so easy for people. I think that have gone through a deep traumatic place to get constricted into Ah, a dark hole or a dark age and somebody that can open up the door and truly just let them be hurt. Give them a place to come outside of themselves Can be so powerful.

spk_1:   1:2:01
Right? Right. Um and I know you mentioned in your prior talks about you kind of worked it down to your bucket list, right? And your bucket list was kind of the turning point in your life where you have these things you won't accomplish in your life.

spk_0:   1:2:18
Is that

spk_1:   1:2:19
a point where you're not gonna accomplish him if if you don't continue on and go forward with that? So you had things to your bucket life? It's your kind of purpose of life. What, you want to accomplish it?

spk_0:   1:2:30
It's funny. It's transformed. Thio first started out. It's just a little It's like, do this so you don't go checking out. Right? Right. But then it gave me an opera. The 1st 1 just came off so well. It was like where I got through the eye of the needle. It's like, Oh my God, what could I do with the second and third ones to make them even more than they were originally. Centobie. The 2nd 1 was about growth, and the 3rd 1 is about giving, which is really what your life is about now, right? So what's your top three tips or people that are looking for purpose or seeking to give back now that maybe they're in there Golden years or they're at a point where they could do that?

spk_1:   1:3:09
I would say, you know, for the start from the basics, look after yourself, right, because you have your your body's away place you're ever gonna live. So look after yourself, mentally and physically. Whatever it takes to keep yourself energize, get enough sleep, eat the right foods and be with people that you want to be with because they have similar goals or expectations or similar themes to their life that you can attach yourself to and be part of. So keep yourself strong mentally, physically, emotionally, so that you have the energy and capacity to be with people. It would be around people who have the same similar goals is you were just having friction all the time.

spk_0:   1:3:54
Okay, next one

spk_1:   1:3:55
um, I would say that I kind of like you had said have have a list of things that you won't accomplish. It doesn't. You don't have to say, You know, I gotta finish this by the end of the month or I can't check it off my list. Maybe it'll take more than a month to cook to accomplish, but have some some things you want to accomplish in your life that could be bigger. It could be small. And then think about your legacy when you're not here anymore. What is your legacy gonna be? Whatever. What are people going to say about you right now? Are you gonna leave a lasting impression of people? Are you gonna motivate the generation behind you or generations behind you and they can look to you and say, Hey, Doug is a world renowned author adventure and he's been around a lot of people and he's gleamed lessons for them that he can use and pass on the other people. So as we all have a purpose in life and I think some of that purpose in life is to motivate and be an example whether it's bad or good, we get a lot of bad examples on TV from the news, for

spk_0:   1:4:52
example. Yeah, don't we? Especially especially right now s o on the other

spk_1:   1:4:59
side of that, you can hang around people that are positive and energetic and have similar goals joint organizations that you want to be part of, whether it save the whale or hug a tree or whatever you What would have a whatever is passionate for you do that and and live to it. So

spk_0:   1:5:20
All right, Anything else you want and on?

spk_1:   1:5:26
Yeah, I would say that Don't go down life because your mother, your father or your brother or Francis Hey, you've got these talents. I think you should exploit him. Go from what's in your heart and in what passion that you really want to have. You might have a passion for journalism or our passion for being in the military or passion to play football or basketball. And and you might think, Hey, that won't be a crew path that can put bread on the table to pay the rent, but something will evolve out of that that will be able to make you a richer person mentally, physically and emotionally. and financially versus going to school to be an accountant, because that's gonna put bread on the table and pay the rent for you. So live your life by the passion is in your heart and not by what you think. The job opportunities will be down the road. So form your life based on your passion and not just necessarily what's available out in the world today.

spk_0:   1:6:25
And what indicators do you have in your own life that when you know that you're on track with your passion,

spk_1:   1:6:33
big question? Well, you know you're on track because you feel satisfied. At the end of the day, you wake up in the morning with purpose. When you put your feet on the ground, you say, Oh, I've gotta get out accomplished these things today. You've got a mental plan in your head, what you want to do that day versus lying in bed and hitting the snooze again and again and saying, Oh, man, I gotta go to the office today or I gotta go here today. Think about that's

spk_0:   1:6:56
the type of energy you feel. Yeah,

spk_1:   1:6:58
right. So it's a kind of energy field that you work on yourself mentally get your focus and purpose of life.

spk_0:   1:7:06
All right, General Robert if Well, thanks very much for doing this interview with

spk_1:   1:7:13
your daughter published to talk with you dug in all the success in your life in the future.

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Thanks. And you too. Thank you. Thing has been what really matters. Interviews with Doug Green. You can get show notes and also listen to my other podcasts at what really matters. Interviews dot com Stay tuned for more interviews with adventures, writers, transformation experts and other extraordinary people who share their harder.