From a kid trying to escape Oklahoma to spending winters alone in Alaska to being a ranger in Idaho to cancer survivor to becoming a voice for the wilderness … Ed Cannady has led a rich and full life. In this interview he shares what he’s learned from a lifetime of interest in wild places.
From a kid trying to escape Oklahoma to spending winters alone in Alaska to being a ranger in Idaho to cancer survivor to becoming a voice for the wilderness … Ed Cannady has led a rich and full life. In this interview he shares what he’s learned from a lifetime of interest in wild places.
spk_0: 0:00
thistles. Doug Green with what really matters Interviews. And today I'm really stoked to be interviewing Ed Canady. Ed Canady is a dear friend from 30 plus years ago. I met him back when I was married and I met him in the wilderness, which is perfect, because that's exactly what we're gonna be talking about today. Um, Ed has been a ranger. Ed has been in wilderness all his life. And what we're gonna be talking about today is the power of wild places and why they're so important. Wilderness, wild places, getting out there in nature, out in the elements and being in places where you're not always in control of everything at his final lifetime out there basically, and today we're going to go through a lot of different areas. We're going to start with his trip in British Columbia, um, an Alberta province in Canada, which he did this previous summer. And he's he intentionally sought out ways too. See Grizzlies. So go figure this. Most people are like, I don't want to get involved. I don't want to be a part of the food chain, and he intensely goes out there alone, which actually pushes up the risk of what happens when you encounter a grizzly, and he sought him out. So, Ed, first of all, thanks for joining us, and I'm really looking forward to this.
spk_1: 1:28
Well, I am a swell Doug. It's good to hear your voice,
spk_0: 1:30
Ed. Tell me about going to BC going out there and wanting to see Grizzlies in the wild when you're hiking by yourself and back talking by yourself for extended periods of time. What was that like, what inspired you to do that and just take it away?
spk_1: 1:48
Uh, you know, Doug, I guess it's it's gonna be hard to explain. And if someone doesn't feel it, it might be hard for them to understand. But, uh, I've always been drawn to wild places. Um, might our life when I was a young child, had a had a pretty difficult childhood and and, uh, a lot of lot of chaos and turmoil in the house and mountains or what I escaped to in my mind. And, um, I realize that if looking at photos of wild places and wild animals and thinking about him could bring me the piece and the escape, and it truly was escape at that time. Uh, then I could only imagine what, Actually, being in those places and experiencing the wildness, um, personally could could do for me. And so its earliest opportunity I did that in 1973 moved to Idaho, finished high school out here and immediately set about spending as much time as possible in Will.
spk_0: 2:56
Let's go specifically to this trip you were on. And then we'll come back and cover the Ah, because the formative years
spk_1: 3:04
grizzly bears are the ultimate expression of wildness in my mind. There the culmination of the flow, the evolution of life through time. Humans can't claim that mantle because we have these big brains. But we do really, really dumb things with, um um, like destroy each other by the millions and and destroy the the, uh the the atmosphere in the environment and all the ecosystems that our life depends on. And we go ahead just blindly doing it. Grizzlies have had such an amazing connection with their environment, and they're so attuned to everything that that goes on around them the smells, the the where to find what foods they just have this connection with with the earth and the land that I'm really jealous of. I'll never be capable of that. And two to get to be in the presence of an animal who, for one thing, is is so powerful that the on Lee we are the only creature that can that can be as formidable of them as them. Just because of our technological advancements, we we, uh, developed guns to kill each other with primarily, but also to kill. Ah, fellow members of the community of life. Um, but human without a gun is is even a human with with a gun often is no match for a grizzly bear, these amazingly powerful
spk_0: 4:34
Adam. So let's let's go in. Let's go on the trip. Take us into the strip up in British Columbia and talk about, um, your interaction with one. Like, I think you described one where you you did everything you could to make sure that they were aware of you prior might so that they could move out of the way and do their own thing. But there were a couple times when, despite your best efforts, um, you know, being down wind from them and being where there was a lot of background noise. They couldn't hear you. What was it like? When you and describe the situation. Take us right into that moment. What? You saw what you felt? Um, all of that make it real visceral.
spk_1: 5:14
The most startling one. Doug actually occurred in Glacier National Park before I even made it to Canada. I was hiking up a stream, um, had a downslope wind, so the bear couldn't smell me next to a stream and little gorge, so it's pretty noisy. The bear couldn't hear me. Good, because I do make noise. I I hike alone, but I don't, um I don't invite close contact with bears because they don't like surprises. Um, down slope. When the bear couldn't smell me pretty noisy, he couldn't hear me. I say he I don't know if it was, it was a male or female. I'll just say he for general purposes. Um, and I was hiking up fairly steep trail, stepped over a little rise, and there's a bear about 30 yards away, and, um, that, you know, your stomach immediately immediately tightens up my heart immediately went to full race, grab my bear spray. Um, which I always have ready at hand. Um, and the bear just turned and looked at me, Saw me right away, turned and looked at me and went back to digging. He was he was digging roots. I went back to digging. Obviously didn't care. I was There was a great relief for me. So I back down the trail, always got my camera out and walked up the slope just little ways where I had a good view of him and took a few photos. Um, with my bear spray hanging in my little finger, of course. Um, so I had it ready at hand and he just ignored me. And then he turned and walked away. And that's the response you want. It's not always the response you get, Um, but it's often probably most often what what they do if they don't run away from your high speed bears air. Not as dangerous as they're made out to be. We we hear these horror stories about people that are attacked, and it does happen, and they're certainly capable of it. But more often than not your encounters with them, we're going to go like that. And that was that was the most startling one because it was such close range. The other really, um, gripping experience that I had was I was in in British Columbia. Excuse me? I won't name the stream hiking on a trail going to cross a creek. And I noticed the bear on the other side of the creek And he saw me right away She stepped out of the willows, saw me right away and his head head came up He's got me, He's got me Ah, fixed in his eyesight And so I started talking to him right away. I don't First, I'm sure you couldn't hear me because of the noise of the stream, But he saw me. Don't know if he could smell me or not. I didn't. Ah, I didn't make no then of what the wind was doing, which was a mistake. You should always know what the winds doing when you're in the country. The bear crossed the stream towards me, keeping me fixing his gaze. And I'm about walking backwards. Marm spread out talking to the bears and hey, bears just may just me, um, not shouting. Um, he kept coming across the creek towards me. and he kept coming. And if they keep coming, you know it's better to stop and hold your ground. Because if you keep backing away and they keep coming, then it could trigger a predator prey response. Um, so I stopped, and at this point, he was within 30 or 40 yards of me. Hey was across the creek. He was on my side of the creek. I stopped and had my bear spray out. And I had my camera out because actually hike with a 600 millimeter land slung over my shoulder. And, um so I'm taking photos. But this point, I stopped taking photos and I have my bear spray. And I said, Just as I said, Don't make me spray you with this shit. He stopped, turned around with back across the creek downstream a ways crossed back over to my side and then went on the way. He was going all along. So he was curious about me, I'm sure, but he all he really wanted to do was go on his way. In hindsight, I probably should have just moved off the trail. They probably were just rocked right on past me on the trail? Um, hindsight. Of course, being 2020 s not what I did, it worked out great. But it was just an amazing experience with his bare or he, you know, he was He was testing me out. Like, Are you going to get out of my way or not? And and I was too dumb. Thio, get out of his way. So he went around me. Um, be on animal that that could, with one with one swipe take me out. Just completely incapacitate me, tohave him. Just Just say okay, you're not gonna move, so I'm gonna go around you. It was after my heart settle down. Um, it was a pretty awesome experience. Those that experience I live for.
spk_0: 10:03
Good thing you don't have any heart issues that would
spk_1: 10:06
be wrong with Helen did. Yes.
spk_0: 10:10
So that sounds pretty crazy. Um, that would challenge anybody's heart. It's what? When you're in a situation like that, I know that you have a pretty good capacity to keep cool under pressure. Did you feel? Did you Did you feel like you were kind of on the edge of like, ah, like you wanted run or dude, Where you been? good enough control of everything, obviously, were that you didn't do anything stupid. At least anything that was sort of in a fight. Flight response approach. U um, I really When you How do you keep your cool in a situation like that? Not everybody can do that.
spk_1: 10:55
Well, running never entered my mind. One thing I'm a great believer, Doug and visualization. So I visualize encounters like that. Um, just like I ski and Avalanche country a lot. And I will actually visualize being buried on avalanche and slowing my breath. Visually, I don't want to happen. I don't think it will. I think I use pretty a judgment in the crew SG with. They're all pretty solid. But I visualized that and visualize my myself. Bree slow in my breathing and maintaining control, and I really, really believe that helps. Um, so I visualized those encounters. I visualized me getting my bear spray out in in half a second because a bear from 50 yards could be onion less than three seconds. You got to be really fast with it. And s o I visualize those things, um, so that I'm better prepared to do it when it actually happens. So, um and I've done that. I was involved with search and rescue for a lot of years, and, uh, it really helps to just just be ableto to breathe and not have to think too hard for you. Just know what to do and you react and you do that by practice for the whether you per actually practice, go through the motions were just practice it in your mind. So I'm a great believer in that.
spk_0: 12:17
That's good. I agree with you on visualization That actually saved my life once, probably when I am in an antelope head on with my motorcycle at 70 miles an hour. I had, yeah, just finished a ah Advanced Drivers Advanced writer's training course. And they had programmed this stuff into us, right? We did over and over. We break and they saw it. Here's what she do. If you hit something, you don't want to change the vectors. You want to go straight, you want to glide. You don't want to do anything that takes you off the path that you're already on because you're only on two wheels and it's really easy to go down. And I remember when I hit all of that visual is my own visualization, I guess is the pre you know, having thought it through prior thinking through What do you do? What do you D'oh! It all came up automatically was amazing. Um, probably saved my butt. Well, I'm
spk_1: 13:14
glad to Dan, if you're here. Well,
spk_0: 13:15
me too. So let's go backwards a bit in time. So you grew up in Oklahoma? Um, not everybody from Oklahoma makes it to the mountains. They, you know, I've driven across Oklahoma a few times. It's a pretty flat state. So what brought you What were the conditions of situation? What's your story on how you got from Oklahoma? Ah, into the mountains. How you became a ranger. How? I know you had an experience up on the last guy. I wonder if you could take us. Take us on your journey from Oklahoma. Thio? Yeah, To the mountains.
spk_1: 13:54
Well, Doug a as I said earlier, Um e I grew up in ah, large family. And, um, it was not a peaceful household. And, um, to escape the shouting and hate. And in the victory, all that that seemed to be a pretty much a constant in the house. When my dad was home, especially I I I escaped in my mind to the mountains, and I don't know why I chose the mountains, but I did. Yeah. Pictures, reading book, um, books like last of the Mohicans, for example, which, you know, Yeah, it's probably a pretty, pretty corn ball book, But it, you know, for seven or eight year old boy it was It was escaped to, ah, to another world, and and that's what I needed to do. So the mountains were literally my salvation at that point in time. So when I was able to move to Idaho with my dad and my grandmother in 1973 it was like a dream come true. So you all the imagining I had done about being in the mountains. Now I finally got to actually be there, and it was even better than I than I imagined better than I dreamed and says I got her high school. Um, I decided not to try to play college football. I went to Alaska instead, going to Alaska with a dream. Ah, literal dream. The biggest wildest place left on Earth.
spk_0: 15:25
Why don't last year, though. How do you end up in Alaska?
spk_1: 15:29
Well, because it was the biggest, wildest place on Earth. It was. Ah, you know, I though it was pretty wild. Yeah, but not like Alaska. Um, and so I had the opportunity. It's when the pipeline is being built in 1976. And I had the opportunity to go work at a lodge. And so I took it, worked in the bush for two years and was in the summer time. It was a private lodge in the summertime. Had a head hunters and a fisherman. And then in the fall hunters, Um, And then, um, in the winter, I was alone at the lodge and was able to spend long months at a time alone. Um, 1976 Batteries aren't what they were today, so I most the time didn't even have music. Um, I had books, Not nearly enough books, but had books in the Northern lights for my company. Um, and moose and caribou. The bears were hibernating then, um, and just was able to Doug get get a handle on what I wanted to be. Who I wanted to be and and start asking myself the question If I was who I wanted to be, and all too often the answer was no. So then that begs the question. Then how do I become that person? So I've pretty much spent the rest of my life trying to become that person.
spk_0: 16:56
Let's go into those that, um, that period when you're in the spending winters in the launch, What was that experience like? I mean, a lot of people go bonkers being alone for that much time in a dark, cold place. It seemed to do the opposite for you. It lets you move into a introspective place that basically I'm changed your life,
spk_1: 17:20
Captain Kevin. Fevers, Riel. Um, if you're not, if you're not able to deal with it, you know the old saying that Ah, if you don't like being alone, that must mean you don't like the company. Um and I don't think that's always true, but, uh, it certainly gave me the opportunity to, uh, yeah, I love to explore the greater landscape around me, but I also love to explore the inner landscape inside me and and ah, and really deal with the hard questions. Uh, who I am and who I should be. And so I was able to me was utterly quiet. It was utterly quiet. Except when the wind blew. Um, and the birds, the few birds that wintered there s So I was able to focus inward in a way that, uh, you know, it's also dark 17 hours a day up there where I was, um, so a lot of I'm alone in the dark and quiet.
spk_0: 18:19
So how did you spend that time? I mean, take us through the course of a typical day where you're being introspective. You're dealing with. Obviously, there's something you gotta get the fire going and batteries and all of that. But when you were really in that introspective place doing the introspection, what were you meditating? Where you journaling Were you reading and then journaling? What was What was the process itself?
spk_1: 18:48
Yeah, pretty much all of the above. I didn't know to call it meditation at the time. Um, I read I didn't have nearly enough books, especially the first winter. Um, and I read a lot of books I read all of Just ask Eve novels and I didn't get the full benefit of uh, that I was the auto diet Act two was trying to trying to re great literature without any without any instruction or direction. And so I spent a lot of time reading things that that I would have benefited if I'd read them when I went to college later. But, um ah, lot of time. Uh, yeah, Just sitting, thinking, sitting, uh, in silence and just being I didn't again. I didn't know to call a meditation. Um, during the day, of course. What daylight I had. I had lots of chores, like I had to hold my water up from the lake and, um, the lake froze solid, so I had to keep it. A hole opened in the water. So I hold him all my water up that I used in the cabin, Um, cutting firewood, cutting building logs because I built a couple structures while I was there and and go out and go out on a snowmobile in on snowshoes and find find logs that were suitable for building, and then then go back and calm down and holla back a lot of lot of good work like that, but a lot of time, just pondering which I still do a lot and some people thinks weird and and maybe it is, Um I don't care. Um, but I But I still do it a lot. And you know that that that quiet time is something that I've always valued and and still seek out.
spk_0: 20:35
You know, there is a book called Chop Wood Carry water. That's a M classic on inner, sort of that inner process. So you were actually doing it back in the seventies?
spk_1: 20:46
Yeah, I've never heard of that book, but I am I looking for it now?
spk_0: 20:51
So you emerge from this period of time in the cabins and, you know, let's call this the dark. That's not really the dark night, because you really like the process, but you come out of it, changes you. How did it change you? What did you learn in there and how did you apply it?
spk_1: 21:08
That's that's a good question. Did it change me? Doug, I, um I don't know that it changed me so much as it because I think the foundation of who I was was already there. So I think maybe it and this this is something I'll think about now that you've asked that question. Um, but I think maybe it it just cemented. Um the what? My knicker already told me I needed to be, um and and you know, the lessons that I learned, um, to not feel sorry for myself to that no one could could be happy for me. I am. I have a little saying for myself, um, and how I deal with things and it's up to me. And that's true for everyone. It's up to me. It's up to the individual. If you want to be happy, you can be happy. If you want to be angry, you can be angry. There are all kinds of poisons we can choose in life. Self pity, bitterness, resentment, anger. Um and so you you choose the way you want to go on. Guy chose not to, um, for taking any of the poisons. Um, but two. I chose to be happy, and I chose to try to find the positive in life and focus on what I did have her than what I didn't have. I've never, never ah worked towards more material things, except I like new skis and a new mountain bike every now and then. Um, so that it just, uh it just gave me the opportunity to to cement those qualities that I, uh, that I thought were what I wanted in my life and to focus on them. I haven't always been successful at that. Certainly. Um, but again, that the time now, when I when I can sit quietly, especially in a beautiful place in wild country and think about have I been successful? If not, why not? And what I what I do differently? Um, I kind of go back thio to the those things that that I chose to focus on when I was living in the bush in Alaska 40 years ago.
spk_0: 23:33
Do you ever feel yourself starting to go down into a dark place or down the rabbit hole? And if so, what do you do to stop it? Or maybe you're just one of those people that doesn't go there.
spk_1: 23:45
I You know, Doug, I I don't spend much time in dark places. I mean, I love the nice guy, so I love Ah, a little actual dark, but, uh, but I and I Well, when I when I had cancer, I had cancer a few years ago. And as soon as I finished my chemo, my wife divorced me. So that was pretty dark time. Um, and I was diagnosed with depression, um, and found their way out of that with with some good with some good, uh, chemical help. And also just again focusing on what I had, not what I had lost. Um, and I developed a little mechanism for when those dark thoughts would come into my head. Because I did. I did for a while there, um, think about suicide. I couldn't stop it That couldn't stop that thought from coming into my head. Didn't didn't ever get close to actually acting on it. But I just, you know, pretty it was pretty interesting intellectual exercise for me too. Thio, Analyze. Why am I having these thoughts? I don't want to die. I don't want to kill myself. So I developed well, mechanism that when that thought would come into my head, I would I would visualize again, watering it up like a piece of paper and throwing it right back out and was able to make it through that. That really dark time and three months after after my divorce and five months after my last chemo session, I had a Gratitude party. I had a party up in the Boulder Foothills place, you know pretty well and invited everyone who wanted to come. I bought a keg of beer and, um, ask everybody else to bring potluck food and renewed support of bodies and and had a gratitude party up. Put signs up on the highway with gratitude, with arrows pointing the way to the places like, I'm going to focus on what I'm grateful for and I have so many things to be grateful for. And so that's That's the route I chose.
spk_0: 25:42
Let's go back to so you do the time in the cabin in Alaska and what came next after that?
spk_1: 25:49
Well, I I really wanted to experience a CZ, much as I could have life before I settled down to a career wasn't really thinking in career terms that point, but I knew I would eventually, so I road trains for the railroad. I worked for the for the railroad for awhile for the Missouri Pacific Railroad Riding trains as a brakeman, Um, I worked on offshore of drilling oil drilling platform in India for a while. A cousin of mine got me that job. Um, yeah, I was I was intelligent and worked hard and took a lot of initiative, so I usually didn't have too much trouble finding good employment. At that point, I hadn't gone to college, so it was, you know, the old, uh, strong back, weak mind kind of jobs, Um, which I was perfectly qualified for. But then I Then let's see, I, uh, worked as an ironworker, worked as a carpenter, Knew that wasn't wanted. I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And then, at the age of 31 I went to college.
spk_0: 26:48
Where did you go on what you study?
spk_1: 26:50
I went to boys state, study the history
spk_0: 26:52
And why history?
spk_1: 26:54
Because I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I thought maybe I wanted to be a professor because I love books so much, and I love history. And George Santayana famously said, Ah, those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. And so I want to learn the lessons of history, and it's kind of an overlooked subject that has Maur to teach us than any other. Just about any other subject. Weakened weaken study. Um, and I've always loved history. It was It was intensely gratifying for him in and limitless Lee. Interesting. And I mean, to this day, that's mostly what I read. I read very little fiction I should read more. Probably would be a more interesting person if I read more fiction. Probably, but ah, I read a lot of history. Still, and so much of what I read resonates today. You know, the old saying that history repeats itself is not true. We repeat history because we don't learn the lessons of history. So I chose history and work. Summers, a za wilderness ranger and the four service hired me. Just assumed left in your school four service hired me permanently as a wilderness.
spk_0: 28:12
So you weren't even concerned about. I got I'm gonna have a history degree. What am I gonna do with that? You just went straight into ranger work.
spk_1: 28:20
It was what history was. What I loved And the wilderness is what I loved. And I was able to do both. And so yeah, but the four service offered me ah, permanent position as a wilderness manager. How in the world could turn that down?
spk_0: 28:32
How did you, uh, What was your connection with the Forest Service? Were you working there? Summers is a
spk_1: 28:36
summers as a seasonal wilderness ranger? Yes. How? Started.
spk_0: 28:40
Right. How did you get that position? Somebody you knew our,
spk_1: 28:45
um I had volunteered some in the sawtooth wilderness. And so they knew me, um, and knew my my potential. And ah offered me the summer. The seasonal rangers position. I was going to college. So, uh, that was all all I could do. Um and so we are just just volunteering. Got my foot in the door.
spk_0: 29:11
Um, when was this? Since this early eighties?
spk_1: 29:16
Not know. That was actually 1988.
spk_0: 29:18
Well, so when when I met you, I was I think it was around 84 or 85. Um, what were you doing then? That's when you were doing the volunteering and the
spk_1: 29:30
exactly Yes, I was volunteering that.
spk_0: 29:32
So you become a ranger all of a sudden, there's a responsibility that comes with that interacting with other people, watching for the interests of team, what's involved with being a ranger And what were some of it challenges you had. And what did you love about? It takes us take us into the life of being a ranger.
spk_1: 29:53
Well, um, feel the started as a full time feel going ranger in the summertime. Um, and of course, you spend five to a TTE that time we do 10 day. It was also 5 to 10 days at a time in the back country with a backpack and a pulaski and a shovel. And if you're not familiar with the Pulaski, um, it's a tool with a grubbing, uh, edge on one side and an axe, a chopping tool on the other side. And you can do anything with the Pulaski. It's the greatest tool on Earth, its simplest but but amazing tool that you can do just about anything with. I don't have a plastic and a shovel and go out and chop trees out of the trail due to erosion control work. Clean up people's mess is in the back country. Um, I had law enforcement. Um uh, authorities. So when people miss behaved, I could write him. Take us. I didn't like to write tickets. I usually tried, um, persuasion first. If I thought they weren't convinced. And I You're damn right I'd write him a ticket. But ah, just spent time in the back country taking care of the place, basically. And, um uh, spending a lot of time talking to other people. A lot of people I encountered already knew the value of those wild places. But a lot of people, we're just then being exposed to it. So being able to talk to them about about the environment around the ecosystem work And why have y bark pine indisputably why whitebark pine trees were so important and just great opportunities Thio to share my love of the place And how remarkable the place waas with other people.
spk_0: 31:43
And what were the response from those people that you engaged with today? Did you see them kind of lied up and take on a sort of a deeper, newer appreciation for what was going on around the the nature around them?
spk_1: 31:56
Absolutely. I mean, it was pretty remarkable with some people and and, uh, really find more than one of most gratifying parts of my job was seeing people just gain that deeper appreciation for the place. And one thing I usually tried to do if I had time and and if they had time often people were in a hurry to try to get to their destination and didn't have a whole lot of time. And I plus at him on a bore him to tears. Um, but try to convince him that you're you're here in this amazing place for the beauty and the stillness and the the perfection of the of the place is obvious. So the things you you learn here, this connection that you start to re establish here with the natural world, take it home and think about the stream that runs through your town because a lot of towns are built on streams or rivers. Take it home and try to try to have the same kind of connection with your home and make it a better place to because, um, again in the wilderness, in especially the sawtooth wilderness in the boulder white clouds, Um that that beauty and the importance of the environment is so obvious. But we take that for granted at home, in in in town, so so much of the time. So try to get him to think about what Can I do a Yes. Protect this place. Keep this place holy and pure. But what can I do when I get home to mate, to improve my home places? Well, because I think that's one of the great human values of wilderness is re establishing that connection that was severed with, especially with the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. But in a lot of ways. With the beginning at the agricultural revolution, we've severed that connection with the natural world. Um, and I think our salvation human humanity's long term salvation is going to be re establishing that connection and re establishing the importance of taking care of our home place, Um, which were not very good at. That's why I said earlier that I thought Grizzlies were the culmination of life, not humans, because we have these big brains. But all we do is Fowler on nest with him.
spk_0: 34:21
So, given our political situation right now, and this is in 2019 climbing out of the end of the year. Fact, it's Christmas Eve, Christmas Eve day. Is that all right? There's a Christmas. Anyway. It's Christmas Eve in 2019. Um, how and what do you say? What's your advice on this? Like if you could, um, how do we deal with this polarization that's going on? I'm not sure I want to talk with you too. About your encounters with ranchers. Sheep. Um, you know, predators vs that. But right now your take on what we need to do and how it can be done in this polarize and polarized society we have. Right now, we've got one side, it seems to be pro wilderness. And then we've got this president who seems to be anti wilderness and is bringing a whole Ah, I don't know what to say. It's frustrating. But anyway, take it away at
spk_1: 35:32
boy that I wish I had the answer to that dog. Um, I think one of the things that were that we're suffering from is kind of a tribalism that is inherent to humans. I think that's how we evolved. Um, but we So it's so easy now, especially with social media and especially since ah Lee Atwater and Newt Gingrich and other people made politics so freaking tribal. We view people who have different political views than ours as the enemy, and some of them are. I think some of them probably truly are. Most of them are not, um I grew up in Oklahoma, very conservative state, and I still stay in contact with several friends. Ah, and members of my family, because all the rest of my family still in Oklahoma. Um, and then I have a lot of conservative friends here and I don't know, I don't know the very conservative state. I don't view them as bad people because they support Donald Trump. Now I really, truly believe Donald Trump is a bad person. I think he is a horrible, despicable, morally bankrupt person, Um, and and plays on people's fears, plays on that tribalism, to to get the response he wants. He wants from people and they fall for it. And it's unfortunate, and I don't understand how they can feel the way they do the people who support him, But they'd understand how I can feel the way I do either. So I stay in touch with them. I don't I don't demonize them. I don't make enemies of Rome, and, um, I don't, um I don't wash my hands of him except when they're when they're just always into name calling and you know, then I'm probably not gonna My granddad told me a long time ago to never argue with somebody who's absolutely convinced. So I want to view them as fellow Americans. And I know most of these people are good people in spite of the fact that they support a very bad person for president. Um, but I'm gonna keep talking to him, and I want them to understand why I do feel the way I do. And I want to understand why they feel the way they do. And I think from that understanding can grow more acceptance and acceptance is going thio result in more communication, and then the things we agree on, we can work towards there gonna be some things we we won't agree on, like abortion and gay rights. Um, if my grandmother thing my granddad told me was that if two people always agreed, that means what I was doing all the thinking, and I don't do my thinking, I don't do their thinking for them and they don't remind for me. But we can disagree, Um, and and still work towards some good common goals
spk_0: 38:34
so specific to working, you know, to being a voice for wilderness and bringing people that aren't for wilderness right now over to being pro wilderness. What kind of conversation of you had this been successful work? Where do you go with a conversation? Where do you not go? I mean, I have I had like you. I have conservative friends. And I've not found a way to speak with these people in a way to engage with them to the point where they are willing to kind of move off of the quote unquote political company line of, um, you know, pro dinosaur fuels fossil fuel industry and taking down environmental regulations and opening up the wilderness to more drilling and bogging and everything else. How do you How do you What do you D'oh! I'm gonna lost for words.
spk_1: 39:35
Yeah, You're not going to commit everybody. There's no question, but one of the things I do and it goes back thio them. Understanding why I feel the way I do is is tell them why wilderness is so important to me and then hearing them Not not just saying my piece, but letting them say their piece. Why? Uh, it's It's so anathema to them. And often there are misconceptions. Um, of what wilderness actually is. You see, you've heard the old line. Will Mrs Landry No use? Well, that's pretty easy to debunk. Um, it's it's land of no roads, no motorized vehicles, no logging. But that's that doesn't mean it's land of no use. Um, and when you really look at the percentage of even just the Western states, if you isolate, it's just the Western states, the Pacific percentage of land that is designated wilderness. I can't tell you off top of my head. I should be able to, but I can't. I'm sorry. What? What percentage of the land base is designated wilderness, but it's really not much. It's pretty darn small percentage of land that is in their term and their words locked up as wilderness. Um, so they have all the rest of that all the rest of the land t log in mine and drill and and, um, when they when they really have to look at the numbers, then most of them will admit, Um, yeah, it's It's really a pretty small amount. Um, and of course I I always argue that it should be Maura and and, uh, when it comes down to it, the things the things that we have to have to continue to exist is clean air and clean water and healthy ecosystems. And there is no better way to ensure that then wilderness designation. And, um, most people will agree that those things are important. Um, they'll say we don't have to have wilderness toe have those things, and I agree with that wilderness pretty much ensures it, but ah, in non designated wilderness in areas that are open and mining and logging, that's where we come together and say, OK, you can log here. But here, the things we're gonna protect when you log you were gonna protect water quality we're gonna protect while I've habitat, um, things like that and then you. That's when that communication becomes so important. And hopefully by that time you've established a trust level. Um and and you understand that that they understand that my goal is not to put them out of business is to protect those things that I think you're most important and I need to understand that their goal is not to destroy the land, but it's too. It's too have jobs and feed their kids and put put, ah, a roof over their house over their heads. And and so that's That's when you start understanding that they're not bad people. You just you just come from a different place.
spk_0: 42:49
So at a theoretical level, this sounds great. How's it worked out in actual practice?
spk_1: 42:54
Well, um, it can work. Dug. It can. It's It's not easy. Democracy is not easy. Um, a good example is the winner Recreation agreement We we arrived at here in the Wood River Valley. Um, we we had literally, uh, snowmobilers burning backcountry ski huts. It was that bad. It was there was actual arson in the forest and people coming to blows. And so we put a group of people together and did exactly what I mentioned earlier. We started just getting to know each other, spending time out on the snow together, understanding why, what what it was. The snowmobilers loved about being out on their machines. They spent time understanding what was important to skiers, and we started building that trust in that understanding because the snow machine owners often thought that the skiers only goal was to get rid of them. And the skiers thought that the snowmobilers the only thing they were out to do was destroyed their experience. Somebody started getting to know each other and realizing that, you know, really, there are things that are important to both groups and not always mutually exclusive. Um, then we started working towards a solution, came up with a solution that, Jeez, that was over 20 years ago. It still holds today because of that trust and that understanding that that that the two groups developed.
spk_0: 44:25
So how did you take us through the nuts and bolts of that? What exactly did you D'oh?
spk_1: 44:29
We invited a group of the ski community because the skiers didn't have unorganized club. They didn't have an actual organization snowmobilers dead. So we contacted some influential skiers and said yet three people choose three people, went to the snowmobile club and said, You guys choose three people and we started meeting regularly and talking through Theis issues that we had, we went out on, um, unscathed ease and then went out on snowmobiles and started really understanding what the each group and I was. I worked for the Forest Service, so I was trying to straddle both sides. I wasn't taking the side, even though I'm certainly a skier, not a snowmobiler. But I did not take sides and just started getting them to view each other as fellow citizens, fellow members of a great community, not as antagonised who are trying to take something from from the other side. It took a long time. It took years. But we finally came to an agreement that still holds today and and I talked. I'm retired now, but when I was still employed, I talked to winter recreation managers all over the West, and I would tell him how good of compliance that we had with our snowmobile closures. And they were astounded because nobody else had the same kind of compliance that we did.
spk_0: 45:59
Okay, let's go back into, um, your your later years in the Wilder is a Ranger. Um, when you look back on that period of time, what were some of the biggest challenges and what were some of your most rewarding moments? And what are your three biggest takeaways as a ranger?
spk_1: 46:18
The seed list of those wanted to time the biggest challenges. Um, biggest challenges were, uh, a the bureaucracy. Um, we often we the four service often made it harder than it needed to be. You know, the old line from Pogo. We have met the enemy, and it is Ah, um, and a lot of that came Excuse me down from the Washington office, but fortunately, the four service is pretty decentralized organization, and and most of the decisions that actually affected things on the ground were made at the local level, like the snowmobile agreement, the Winter recreation agreement. Um and the challenges are also the people who just didn't care. Um, what the what the other users of the public land wanted and just wanted Thio Just want to fight one to throw rocks. Fortunately, they were a distinct minority, but they were often the squawk easiest group. And, uh, but I I would I would approach him. I always say, if we can't defend our decisions, we probably shouldn't be making them, so I would I would just go say, Let's go out on the ground and look at what you're talking about and take him out and and, um, get to hear their side of the story. Ah. Good example is project we did on Pole Creek. Well, we closed a bunch of illegal to tracks and roads and did a lot of restoration habitat restoration. And a lot of people who had been recreating there for 50 plus years were really upset about it. Inside. Say, we'll just meet me on the ground. Let me explain to you why we did what we did and to a person they came away not angry anymore. Understanding what we did and not necessarily supporting it may be wishing me that we have done differently but understanding why we did it, Um, And so those were. The challenge is dealing with a bureaucracy and dealing with the knot heads in the world, and every group has him. It's not unique to motorized. It's not unique to ranchers. It's not unique to environmentalists. Every group has, um, the the most gratifying, the most satisfying, most rewarding. That was the second question. Doug's there, eh? Yeah, Okay. The course. The spending time out there often by myself, but spending time in the in that much time in the back country, um, was in intensely rewarding, but probably the most. The most rewarding was hearing from people who went to these wild places and it changed their lives. And I heard that a lot. Over the years, um, people would write me a postcard, write me letters, sent me books, Um, and because I would often talk to people about about backpacking where ago things like that. I talked to hundreds of people over the years. They would call for a backpack and advice and the folks that answered the phone, Julie sent him to me and and, uh, people would people would call me or write me letters and say That changed my life. I I I'll never look a look at life the same way I slowed my pace. I was able to like, you see, because I would always suggest to him, Don't just focus on moving all the time, Take time to sit stillness and silence, or both in shortage categories in our in our lives. These days they're so much frenetic activity and and and other all these moving parts. And, like Barry, Lopez said, life are we move. It's such a fast pace these days. We didn't evolve that way. We evolved in stillness and quiet and, you know, it wasn't wasn't that long ago that going 35 miles an hour was unheard of. Um, then just two or three generations ago, uh, going 70 or 80 miles an hour was astounding. And now, you know, we travel it 600 miles per hour, and and, uh, we didn't have all that way, and and so when we're when we're able to go back to, that's still missing Quiet. We learned lessons. We learned things about ourselves and learn things about about life That's impossible to learn. And at that pace, on def, we don't ever take the time to sit in stillness. And someone said, I forget. Um, Blaise Pascal, I think maybe said the all the problems, um with humanity is because men won't sit quietly in their chambers. Paraphrase that I butchered, I'm sure. And and, uh um, and I agree with that, you know, people just don't take the time to stop and think it's everything's black. And why do you make these? You make you give the great questions of our existence a brief glance and think you know enough and move on And and that brick lance is not enough. Um, if we don't think deeply about about who we are, where we are, where we're going, who we want to be. Then it's really hard to to really know the answers to those, um and so I think, um when when people would I would encourage people thio approach their trips into the wilderness with that in mind. And I would hear often from people that, yes, I did that. And it took me a couple of three days to actually be able to decompress and really feel the quiet and feel the stillness. But once they did, it would have a profound effect on people.
spk_0: 52:18
All right, in that place of quiet and stillness, which seems to be a place you're very comfortable with, What do you feeling? What's experience like there? What are you, um, take us inside your experience of that.
spk_1: 52:34
Well, if I have something, if I have something that's pressing, then um it's an opportunity to focus on that like, um you know, how did I handle that situation and how should have handled it differently? What can I learn from it? Um, if I don't, then I just It's Ritz really good for me to just sit and let let things come to me. Um, there is an old poem that I read once, and I don't remember the whole thing. I really wish I could. It was actually on an album cover, and I can't remember the name of the album. It was something to the effect of, um, Doubt is the pros of the mind. Aspiration is the song of the soul. And then there's another verse. I forget what it was. And then realization is the dance of life. So you have doubt and you have aspiration and that that, you know, those are the things you do you think about and and then but realization where you realize these these, uh, these important lessons is the dance of life. And so when I'm sitting in those quiet places, I'm really trying to dance.
spk_0: 53:49
So one of the things I've really appreciated about you, your post on Facebook, is your photography and also the words that you often accompany them with. Sometimes you'll lead with arm. I think often you'll lead with a quote that you really like. And then you'll rift off of that and take us on a journey with both your words and your images to appreciate, um, the wilderness, even more talk. So maybe you can talk about photography. How did you get into it? U um, are obviously very good at it. What? How has photography and also this writing, um, made you appreciate wilderness even more? How do you look at wilderness differently when you have a camera? How, as it may be altered or changed or deepened or whatever your AA experience with nature.
spk_1: 54:48
First of all, that I don't know how good I am at it. You know, the old saying that even a blind squirrel finds it, Not every now and then. I think I'm in places that it's really hard to take a bad photo. Um, but I do work pretty hard at it, actually, And, um, it's in a lot of ways. It's like hunting, which I haven't hunted in many, many years. I'm not anti hunting. Um, but, uh, it's like hunting with a camera. You're hunting for light. Um, and you know, when I when I first got into photography was right out of high school. When I went to Alaska, I bought a camera, bought a little single injury flex camera with 50 millimeter lands had had had no instruction, didn't know what I was doing. It's pretty interesting how much photography has changed, because for a night where I was in the bush in Alaska, I would take a lot of rolls of film. But I might not be able to send them out on a plane to get develop because the only access to the to the lodge was by Bush plane. I might not be able to send him out to get developed for 23 months, and then I wouldn't get the film back for another two or three months. What might be 4 to 6 months before I could see what I did wrong? And in the meantime, I take it a lot more film, a lot more more photos, you know, probably doing those things wrong. But even then I got some. I got some nice photos, but, um, you come contrast that with today where you take a photo and you get instant feedback immediately. You can look at your You're the march on your camera, CEO, I need I need to open up more. I don't have enough depth. Feel what have you. So you get that instant feedback. And that's kind of how much how much technology has changed in in S O many areas over the years. But it makes a kind of like hiking in grizzly country that, you know, that heightens your senses and makes you more aware about the winds doing where the noise is coming from. Ah, young. The presence of no other animal on the landscape changes your relationship with the land like the presence of grizzly bears. Having a camera in your hand gives you that same relationship with light. What? Where is the sun gonna set? Where is it going to rise? Where's the moon gonna set? And so you you start thinking about where do I need to be to, uh, t get the effect that I want with life. So being a photographer is all about a relationship with light on the land, and some days you sit there thinking everything is perfectly positioned for the amazing sunset, and then clouds come up in the west and block the sun, and you just sit there in all that, you get to be there. Um, even without the perfect sunset, Um, but It does make me more aware of what's going on around me. Um, I like to think that there are times when I just I'm happy to just say wow. Well, like during the eclipse, we had a total solar eclipse here, um, three years ago, two and 1/2 years ago, and the the period of totality was about two and 1/2 minutes. I didn't take a single photo of that because I knew it was going to be so awesome. I didn't want to have to worry about my exposure. Ah, you know my composition. I wanted to just experience the moment. So So there are times when I just experienced the moment and put my camera side because that's what's truly important to me. Is is having that experience in nature. Um, if if I'm lucky enough to get good photos of it, Well, that's a bonus. Um, but I do love photography, and I love sharing because I do believe I know what spending time in these beautiful wild places did for May. It literally saved my life, Doug. And if I can help any other people have a similar experience, then I want to do that if I If I can do that through photography and two words, because I love to read, I read, uh, a lot. I don't I don't watch television. It's a mind sucking, um, pit, I think. But But I love good books and and and I love words. So if I can show people what wilderness and beauty has to offer, then photography is a really good way to do that.
spk_0: 59:19
Speaking of books, what are some of your favorite books? Um, and maybe we could break that down into two genres. One would be books, um, about wilderness or wilderness related, and then, ah, maybe your top three books on that and then also your top three books on Just in general.
spk_1: 59:39
Boy, that my top three on wilderness. I guess the ones that come immediately to mind is our Arctic Dreams by Barry Lopez. Um, if you haven't read it, I definitely recommend it. Amazing book. The Practice of the Wild by Gary Snyder and Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold And there there are a few others that could easily be in that top three, so I would probably have more like a top 15 or 20 but those are the 1st 3 that come to mind and then just books in general again. I don't read much fiction, but, um, one of the best books have ever read is sometimes a great notion. But can Keesey really, uh, I I think it probably is the best book ever read. And I I Love Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad. Conrad's such a great writer. Um, it's just a just a terrific story about about, um, about the the exploitation of Africa and native peoples and, uh, also about the What's What's the dark that lurks in the in the heart of a man who lose contact with with what's important. And then, um, across the across the wide Missouri by Bernard DeVoto. It's a historical account of the fur trade. Um, one of the books that I read it a very early age and one of the primary reasons I want to major in history just just really, um uh connected me to two, uh, the other great wild western landscape. And, um so that was a book that really had a profound effect on me. Um, and there there are so many other dog because I do read so much. Um and and, uh, so those are just a few that come to mind right off the bat.
spk_0: 1:1:43
Something else you just said prior to this is the wilderness saved your life literally. Can you expand on that?
spk_1: 1:1:51
Yeah, I I think I was headed for because of my family situation and no guidance. And my family blew up in a very bad way, and I I think I was Yeah, I was could very easily have gone down a very wrong path. But that time when I could when I could just even even point us to live in Oklahoma when I could just imagine being in a calm, peaceful place, um allowed me to become calm and peaceful and not not flee to anger, not flee to drugs and alcohol. Although I did, my share of drugs and alcohol was more recreational and and learning experience for me, But I never became dependent on him, are addicted to him. Um, so it allowed me to excuse me to center myself in a way that I wouldn't have otherwise. So then when I actually got to be in wilderness, it it cemented that that Ah, uh, certainty What became a certainty of who I wanted to be? I did not want to be a bad person. That would have been very easy for me to have become a bad person. Um, I didn't want to. So being out in the wilderness, out in the in the back country in that in that that calm, peaceful place in the presence of amazing beauty, um just allowed me to gather myself in a way that I wouldn't have if I had been in the inner city. Or at least I don't think I could have in the inner city, Emerson said. I'll butcher this. Emerson said something to the effect of Ah, the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd can enjoy the sweetness of solitude. Well, I'm not a great man, So in the midst of a crowd, I wasn't able to do it. I need it to go away from the crowds and into the wilderness, um, and enjoy the sweetness of solitude and and again, um, gather myself and become, uh, at least some resemblance of the person I wanted to be. And I I'm always falling short of it. Um, but I try to always look at that. And why did I fall assured? And how could I do better next time?
spk_0: 1:4:16
One of the things you said that's really curious here is you were actually retreating into the mountains, so to speak, in your mind before you were even there. Is that what I heard you say?
spk_1: 1:4:28
Absolutely. Yeah, no, just looking. If looking at pictures of the maroon bells, um, of the Grand Tetons of the saw tubes just looking at pictures and imagining being they're placing myself there. And maybe I guess that's when I really started visualizing and and understanding the power of visual ization of putting myself in a situation and learning from it. Um, so it wasn't visualizing encountered a grizzly, a close range, reacting to a grisly charge, or or um, or being buried in an avalanche but visualizing being in a place that was completely different from the place I actually was in. And it brought me a piece that I wouldn't have had otherwise.
spk_0: 1:5:14
Well, it's a great skill set. Um, go. Okay, so let's move on now. To more recently, you were diagnosed with cancer. Is that correct? Do you want Oh, how has When you're facing a life threatening situation like that, it brings death right to the forefront. And it also brings in my experience it brings life rights to the forefront. Um, you know that all of a sudden it's not unlimited. It's like, Oh, ah. Anyway, can you talk about how that has changed you how with the impact of that spin on you and specifically towards wilderness to but also in life?
spk_1: 1:6:04
Well, I think, um, I've always tried to, um, enjoy, um, the time I have on Earth. I've always tried Thio realize that my time is limited and nobody gets out of this alive. Um, but it really being diagnosed with cancer put a fine point on that. Um, and it all? Yeah. I mean, coming coming face to face with your mortality. My cancer was very treatable, as it turned out, um, 10 years earlier, I probably would have died from it, but fortunately, there was some great new, um, wonder drugs. And so my cancer was very treatable. Wasn't a pleasant experience. I don't recommend it, but, um, you know, we're not given a choice in those matters. Um, but it really put a fine point on what Warren's of on said. I don't know if you're familiar with the singer. Songwriter warns of On Who died from mesothelioma, and he was asked when he was nearer, nearer death. Um, what what if he learned any great lessons from from this experience of dying? And he thought about it for moments that enjoy every sandwich and which I I just love because it's not just skiing off the top of a peek or it's not just, um ah, great steep powder run. Not those not those highlight moments, but even the little things Enjoy the little things. Appreciate every breath that you get to take appreciate every time you see a smile on a friend's faith, Um, appreciate every sunrise, even if it's not blazing with color. Um, enjoy every moment as much as you can, and you're not going to be able to enjoy every moment. But try your best and, uh, yon, And it also was a good opportunity to, um, to really think about am I afraid to die? And, um, I truly believe at this point because I actually came pretty close to death. Um, I really believe at this point I'm not. Because if I don't have a choice, you know everybody. Everybody is going to face that. So if I die tomorrow, I've had a damn good life. I have been an amazing life, and so I could die tomorrow and have no complaints. I don't want to. Don't plan to, but ah, I would have no complaints. Um but it also makes me appreciate bottom in medicine. Um, pretty amazing what 21st century medicine can do.
spk_0: 1:8:46
So your biggest life lessons that you would pass on to others. Let's say you're going out tomorrow. And you, me? You could put it, um, on your epitaph. Three key 30.3 lessons learned three things that maybe you send back to yourself when you were a kid or you would give to your grandkids or whatever.
spk_1: 1:9:08
We'll be pretty tempting Thio like the Old King Crimson song and pretty be pretty tempting to say that confusion would be my epitaph. But that's not completely true. Um, the 1st 1st thing would be gratitude. Be focused on what you have and and be grateful for what you have. If there are things that that you really, um, need to be happy that you don't that you don't have, then then work towards them. But be grateful for what you have. Gratitude is this For me, the single most important thing that I try to focus on, um and another would be to be able to distinguish between needs and wants, because we are We are absolutely, uh, bombarded with with want in American society. We're supposed to want all these material things, but what do you actually need? Um, someone said once that half of life problems could be solved, Um, it by just knowing what we can live without, Um so the simplicity is is ah, great path to happiness. If all you focus on is wanting Maur, that's the thing. You then you're never gonna have enough. And so being able to to say this is what I need This is what I need to be happy, as opposed to. I mean, I'm being told by society that I'm supposed to want these things, But do they make me happy? Does that new iPhone 11 pro, which I kind of want? Is that gonna make me any happier than the old iPhone I have now. No. So, I mean, I didn't even want it iPhone until a former girlfriend convinced me to get one. Now, I'm glad she did. Yeah, but, um, being able to distinguish between needs and wants, why do you truly need to be happy as opposed to what society is telling you? You should want, um, And then the third, um, I guess would just be the importance of friends. Um, I have a saying. I used to make note cards that I would sell in town or give to friends. And and on the back of it, I always had a little saying that the Majesty of nature is equaled only by the beauty of true friends. Um, and so, uh, appreciating my friends and wanting to be worthy of my friends because I have some pretty amazing people in my life. You included, dog. I include you in this because I have the utmost respect for you. Um, I I want to be worthy of my friends. And, um so I want to, um, to be a true friend, not just not just stay a fair weather friend and ah, to be there when when they need me. Because my friends were there when I need them. I found that out when I had when I went through my cancer and divorce. Um, So I guess those three things, um, or the first that come to mind as faras What? I would, uh um I don't like to give advice, but what I would say would be things worth considering.
spk_0: 1:12:42
Well, this has been great. Ah, is there anything else you'd like to add that we haven't covered? And I also want to get your website so people can see your photography and read some of your Ah, some of the things you've written to company those photos.
spk_1: 1:13:01
Well, on my actual photography website, I haven't written anything. They're just just just photos. But that's just ed Canaday photography dot com. Um And then, of course, where I where I have the photos with with words Accompanying home is on Facebook and Facebook was kind of my gonna be my loan. Um, um, concession to the 21st century. When I got divorced, I didn't know how to be single in the 21st century, you know. Jeez, I guess I'd better get a Facebook page. But of course, that has nothing to do with it. I didn't know that turned out instead to just be a great way to connect with people. Um, and to share those to share those, um, thoughts and photos of beautiful wild places. Um, but so, yeah, the my photography website and then Facebook or the two, the two explosions I have to the Greater World.
spk_0: 1:13:55
Are you on instagram? It'll
spk_1: 1:13:58
I am not
spk_0: 1:13:59
okay. I tried. Well, I might try to encourage you otherwise, but
spk_1: 1:14:04
well, you wouldn't be the only one, but, uh, I don't need the last thing I need is to spend more time on a keyboard or on a screen.
spk_0: 1:14:14
Yeah, well, we'll have that conversation next summer over a beer.
spk_1: 1:14:18
Okay. So good. I'm buying
spk_0: 1:14:23
Ed. Thank you so much for ah, taking some time out to share all of this is it's been quite a journey for you.
spk_1: 1:14:31
Well, Doc, it's always It's always fun for me to talk to you. I've known you for a long time, like you said earlier, and always really enjoy the time I could spend
spk_0: 1:14:39
with. Thanks for listening to this episode of what Really matters interviews. You can listen to other episodes on iTunes, Spotify and what really matters interviews Dycom. And be sure to subscribe to us so you can hear the latest interviews.