Allison Park Leadership Podcast
A podcast where we have culture-creating conversations.
The world today is too complicated and messy for Christians to avoid tackling the difficult questions.
Hosted by Pastor Jeff Leake and his son Dave Leake, the Allison Park Leadership Podcast is a series of conversations designed to help Christians navigate challenging topics in our faith and culture today.
Allison Park Leadership Podcast
Is There Any Evidence Jesus Rose from the Dead? Historical Fact or Religious Fiction?
Is there any evidence Jesus rose from the dead?
Dave and Jeff Leake discuss the surprising evidence that has skeptics and believers alike questioning everything they thought they knew about Christianity.
Hear how top researchers and journalists who set out to DISPROVE Jesus' resurrection ended up becoming believers instead. Take a journey through historical mysteries, scientific investigations, and personal testimonies that will challenge everything you've been told.
Are you brave enough to follow the evidence where it leads, even if it means confronting your deepest doubts about faith, science, and the supernatural?
VIDEOS SHOWN:
Joe Rogan "Jesus" Clip: https://youtube.com/shorts/RIW79NSBqIQ?si=WMawD9k3-ecUFSpG
Craig Brown "Healing" Clip: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8j6Fs8u/
BOOKS MENTIONED:
Jeff Leake's Book (around 50:26):
You Are God's Miracle Delivery System
Lee Strobel Books (around 44:50-46:00):
Case for Christ
Case for Easter
Case for Miracles
Case for Grace
Case for Creator
Case for Heaven
Case for Faith
Seeing the Supernatural
Bill Johnson & Randy Clark Book (around 45:45):
Essential Guide to Healing
Johannes Amritzer Book (around 45:14):
How Jesus Healed the Sick and How You Can Too
LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
Email:
Jeffl@allisonparkchurch.com
Davel@allisonparkchurch.com
Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake
Today we're talking about proofs of the resurrection of Jesus. So if you're a skeptic of Christianity, maybe you're a Christian, but you're not real sure if there's any validity to your faith. Do we really know as a historical fact that Jesus actually lived and did he actually die? And the big question is, did he really rise from the dead? This is the central factor with the holiday Easter that's coming up. So today we discuss what's the basis for our faith in the resurrection of Christ, and how should we as Christians spread the word about this? If you want to hear more, tune in. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where we have culture creating conversations. My name is Dave
Jeff Leake:and my name is Jeff, and we're your host for the podcast. We're so glad you're joining us again. We're both on staff at Allison Park Church. We're father and son. Dave's the pastor at the Northside campus, and I'm the Lead Pastor of Allison Park Church, and we so appreciate we're getting a lot of feedback right now from those who are listeners, and a lot of people sending in topics of potential future conversations that we can have. So we so appreciate that. Do we have any new, new shout outs for
Dave Leake:we do before? For today? Wow, come on. Yeah. So these four people were kind enough to leave us a five star review. So we want to give you a shout out. Chris lockamy, Jordan and Ariel Frazier, old water 412 and Mike and Karen basil. So we just want to say big thank you. Thank you for your kind of views. And if you want a shout out, we would love to give it to you. Unfortunately, we can only see people the names of those who leave five star reviews on Apple podcast. So if you can do that, we'd love to give you a shout out. If you just want to help us out. You can always comment and like on YouTube and subscribe or whatever you're watching on, you know, on your podcast platform.
Jeff Leake:Yeah, so it does help us get the word out. Your likes actually help spread the word, so we appreciate that. So let's dive into our topic for today. So we're in early April. We're recording this just a little bit before the celebration of Good Friday and the Resurrection Sunday. And we thought we would talk about the role of the resurrection really, in answering some skeptical questions that people have about, is Christianity true? How do we know Jesus is the real deal? Is he different from any other human being? What makes the story of what Jesus did on the cross and his resurrection distinct, and why should we have faith in it? I think there's going to be really encouraging podcast. Honestly, there's going to be a lot of great stuff we're going to cover together, but I'll pitch it to you, Dave, since, yeah, well, you
Dave Leake:know, there's been a lot of bigger voices in the social media, internet world recently that have been asking the question, like, who Jesus really was like? Was he even a real historical figure? And what do we what do we believe about his claims? You know, because I think there's this acknowledgement, okay, Christians believe blank about Jesus. But can we trust those claims? Why should we trust those claims? We don't have a clip from this guy, but Logan Paul, who's a big podcaster, YouTuber, Boxer, amateur. But you know Logan Paul is? Yeah, okay. He he had Cliff nectal. If you know who that is, he's like a Christian apologist. Okay, I think it's how you say his last name. He had him on and his son on their on their podcast, impulsive is what it's called. I think it was last summer to talk about Jesus. So the podcast is called impulsive, yeah? Logan Paul's podcast, right, right? He has these Christian leaders on these pastors, yeah, that and Cliff, Cliff, I think, is, I think he's a neck door connect on and on it, but he's, like, been for decades. He's been going to university campuses. Oh, I've seen this guy. Yeah, yeah, he's tall. And he right. So with a crowd standing around, yeah, people ask him a skeptical question, and he provides a logical answer, yeah, it's really good. He's really good. So he went on the Logan Paul podcast. They had a conversation, and then Joe Rogan recently had a conversation about the historicity of the person of Jesus, and it's been really cool to see, I think specifically with with Joe Rogan, he kind of was, like, a couple of years ago, he said something like, I've never, you know, I don't think I've ever taken anybody seriously who believes in God, especially Jesus, you know. But now he's, like, starting to at least have conversations about curious. He's curious, right?
Jeff Leake:Yeah, so it's a really interesting time that we live in, isn't it? Because you social media has given a platform to people from every walk of life to share their point of view, which has in some ways leveled the playing ground for everybody to be able to have an opinion, and it has made it possible for people to have to consider maybe some things about faith and the Bible and Jesus that they wouldn't have considered otherwise. Now there's a whole wave of people that are trying to discredit the Scripture and discredit Christianity, and they bring up all the worst aspects of Christian history to help people. People become exvangelicals, right? To deconstruct their faith and to walk away, and then you have a whole bunch of people on the other side who are out of spiritual curiosity, converting, right? They're people that are becoming Catholics, they're people that are becoming Christians, they're people that are, you would say, popular culture figures that are leaning into the conversation about, Is Jesus really who he said he is? Is he really the Son of God? So that's all good. And I think this season that we're in right now, Dave was we lead up to the resurrection is one of the greatest opportunities that we have to talk about the reliability of our faith and the solid foundation upon which the truth of Jesus Christ rest, because the resurrection is the central idea that brings proof to who he really is. But before we get there, I know, I know we were looking at playing a couple of clips today as a part of our discussion, right? Yeah.
Dave Leake:Okay, so, so the first one we're going to watch is from Joe Rogan where he's sort of asked asking questions about who Jesus is. I think that this is a good description of maybe even some people that are Christians, that sort of question like, well, what's the actual validity or legitimacy of what I believe or believe is it's just a myth? Is it a fairy tale? Yeah, like, I like it. Legend. Uh huh, you know. Or is this, did it really happen? Is this history? How reliable is it that
Jeff Leake:I believe these things Joe Rogan's podcast, like the biggest in the world, or one of the biggest, has to be at the top the biggest? Yeah, because he's kind of started this long, three hour conversations that actually have triggered a lot of our conversations about aliens and UFOs and all kinds of other like he has. He's just been willing to go wherever like and have long conversations with people of expertise. So yeah, so go
Unknown:ahead and check out this clip. Go ahead. What do you think of Jesus?
Jeff Leake:Well, it certainly seems like there's a lot of people that believe that there was this very exceptional human being that existed. So the question is, what does that mean? Does it mean he was the son of God? Does it mean he was just some completely unique human being that had this vision of humanity and this way of spreading this ideology that would ultimately change the way human beings interact with each other forever. Is he the son of God? Well, are we all that's another question, but you have to submit to this concept that this guy was the child of God who came down to earth, let himself be crucified, came back from the dead, explained a bunch of stuff for people, and then said, All right, so you want to come back if we get to a point where artificial reality is indiscernible from regular reality, and Jews, Jesus chooses to come back at that moment. Boy, that's the ultimate test of faith. Okay, well, that was he covered a lot of ground in a little section there, though, especially the way he ended was kind of unusual. So we'll get to that in a minute. But let's, let's look at what Joe's proposing here. Right? Go ahead. What's your reaction so well? First, I would say it is true. I like how he described it, that he had a unique vision for the world, that he was different from anybody else that he he affected the world and changed the way how all of humanity relates to one another. I mean, all of that is true of Jesus. Some people want to let it stop there, that he was just a great leader, a great teacher, great humanitarian, had a great vision, and he was killed, just like a lot of people who come to bring peace and elevate the world to a higher level. So a lot of people keep Jesus in that category. But then he says, what? But? But if following him means I have to submit to the idea that he actually was the Son of God who came down to earth, died on the cross and then rose from the grave and then went away, you know, and he's going to come back again if, if that's what it means to be a follower of Jesus, which, let's just say that is what it means to be a follower of Jesus. Joe Rogan understands the gospel, whether he has come to the place where he has said, I now believe that too. I don't, I'm not sure he's on the edge like he's right there, because he because he's even saying, Boy, wouldn't it be cool if he came back, like, because then he went into this whole thing that if AI takes over the world and destroys everything, wouldn't it be great that Jesus came back to rescue us? Right? That's kind of how he ends it. So he obviously hasn't crossed the line of faith, but he's at the at the very edge, because these are the right questions. If you want to become a Christian, or if you want to know that your faith has got solidity, he's actually set the table for us to have a real conversation about about what it means to believe these things. Well,
Dave Leake:I mean, and I think he's asking questions that probably Every Christian Needs to ask, yeah, if you're going to be serious about your faith, he's obviously pre Christian, you know, hopefully he he convert, you know, I shouldn't say converts. Hopefully he surrenders to Jesus, yeah, you know, becomes a follower and a disciple, but, but I think every. Christian. Every person who decides and makes that decision, regardless as to whether you thought about it deeply, you probably do need to ask some of those real questions. Like, you know, why do I trust in this? Can I trust in this? I think maybe there's sometimes a hesitancy too, like, I don't want to look into this too deeply, because if there are reasons to doubt that might freak me out too much, and I don't want to question the foundations of this, like, isn't it a matter of faith, but actually,
Jeff Leake:the other side, if I look into it too deeply, and I'm convinced that I'm gonna have to change, right? Because if Joe Rogan submits to that idea, is his whole world is going to change for the positive, I'll say, but, but, you know, coming to that conclusion that Jesus is now the God of the universe, I have to submit to my life to him, that's a radical, radical decision, which is the ultimate salvation, transformative decision that we want everybody to come to. Yeah,
Dave Leake:okay, so, so let's just, let's just start the conversation. I guess we're, we're addressing this question like, What weight can we really place on evidence that Jesus is real, that he was real, but that he did die and, you know, resurrect, rise again and go to heaven?
Jeff Leake:Well, first, first, I think we would say there's no doubt that people accept that he lived in history, right? Like there are some people that just love to throw doubt on on the whole idea of Christianity that will say, Oh, I don't know if you have any evidence of it, but there actually is not just biblical evidence, archeological, archeological evidence, historical evidence. There are historians like Josephus who talk about the fact that he lived in Josephus is not a Christian. No, he's a Roman. And he's writing an independent history of the Roman Empire. And it's actually, actually a Jew who wrote a Jewish Roman, right, right? He's writing Roman history, and his premise was not to write about Jesus. He's writing a long history Rome's battles and victories and but he mentions Jesus in one of the chapters, and he describes his impact on the world. So he's a he's noted in history. So there's, there's just a whole bunch of information about the idea that Jesus legitimately did live. Yeah,
Dave Leake:absolutely. I guess the the claim, so, without where I was gonna go with this initially is, I think the other part we have to take, take a look at, is the claims he just makes about himself. So when we set this up, it's like, was she just, just a good teacher? We probably talked about this before. It's a common thing, right? It's
Jeff Leake:it. So the the idea is he can't just be a good teacher, because he walked around telling everyone that he was God, like, you know, you wouldn't say, you wouldn't say that about any other cultic leader who claimed divinity. He was a great teacher, because he's actually claiming to be God, right? It kind of nullifies everything. So if he's, if he's not God, and he's claimed to be God, even if he has good moral teachings, then he's a crazy person. Yeah, that's the whole paradigm that CS Lewis said, yeah. He's either a liar, a lunatic, or he's Lord the Lord. Yeah, right. So, so the quality and of his teaching, though, is one of the proofs of who he is, because his teaching truly was world changing, yeah, but it wasn't just his teaching that establishes who he is. Are you looking up some of the references of Jesus's claims? Is that what you're
Dave Leake:there's a guy that I saw a clip of a while ago. His name is Gary Habermas. Heard of this guy? No. And he, I think he got a PhD on the resurrection of Jesus, and he wasn't allowed to use the Bible as any part of his his dissertation for historical evidence, yeah, but he built this really cool case. We won't, I probably won't. Don't have time to pull all the facts that he had up. But essentially he just, he historically, goes through like nobody can really even doubt the claim of the resurrection, okay, because of, like, secular scholars, when you look at the historicity of the documents like, like that we have from ancient times about how this event changed the world really, like, no real serious historical scholar questions the life and even the resurrection of Jesus. It sort of like messes with people. Like, I'm not going to go too far into that, but like, historically, like, we don't have, there are very few things that are this well attested from a historical documentation perspective.
Jeff Leake:So, and then there's a couple, there's a couple of these examples of these stories. Just like the guy that you mentioned, was he a Christian when he was, when he was researching, yeah, okay, okay, so there. So we mentioned Josh McDowell. Josh McDowell, who was an atheist, who set out to prove that Christianity was false by trying to disprove because he knew, if we can disprove the resurrection, we eliminate the idea that Jesus was God, yeah, and we put him into the category of great teachers. Here, and as Josh McDowell did his research, this is now probably 50 years ago, he actually convinced himself, through his research, that Jesus did rise from the dead and became a Christian. Same thing happened in the early or late 1980s early 1990s by a guy by the name of Lee Strobel who worked for the Chicago Tribune. His wife got saved, and he wanted to disprove her decision. So as a journalist, he started to research the resurrection and the person of Jesus Christ to disprove it. And in the process, he became convinced that Jesus truly did rise from the grave, and he became a follower of Christ, and he has now written a slew of books as a journalist. Yeah, the case for the creator, the case for the resurrection, the case for Christmas. I mean, he goes, he just, he just wrote a new one. I just happened to see him on a Christian television program that talks about, I have to pull it up in a minute. It talks about the validity of miracles in the world, like he researches true miracle stories and documents that there are legitimate miracles that happen in the name of Jesus, right? That that are also part of the proof of that. So there, there are a lot of resurrection proofs. I don't know if you want to talk through that for a moment, like, this is a good thing, especially during the Easter season. Sure. Yeah. So, so, so why do we believe the resurrection? What? What are the logical reasons? Not just that the gospel is recorded as such. There are some actual, real, legitimate reasons, you know. So,
Dave Leake:okay, I'll start with the obvious one that I know of, but I don't know if I'll come back to memory. I think one of the most obvious ones is that you had these 12 guys that were disciples of Jesus, you know, one who was substituted for Judas, obviously. But all 12, except for John, were martyred for their beliefs. And they had chances, like, hey, we won't execute you if you renounce this. And you know, just logically, like, nobody is willing to die for someone they know is alive. Yeah.
Jeff Leake:So all they had to so Simon Peter, tradition says was crucified upside down because he was unwilling to be crucified in the same way as Jesus was. And they asked him the question, before He was crucified, all you have to do is deny that Jesus was risen from the dead. And he said, I can't right. What is it? Thomas, in India, became a missionary in India, and is stabbed through while he's praying. What so all of the disciples, except for the apostle John, end up being martyred for their faith. And not just them, but hundreds and hundreds of Christians in the in the century that follows Jesus resurrection were also murdered for their faith. Yeah, and some in the arena, in the Roman arena, saying, recant your faith in the risen Jesus, and we won't kill you. And they, and they went to their death swearing that they believed that Jesus was alive. So you have these eyewitness accounts of the Gospels. You have the disciples who go to their death swearing that they witnessed this. There has never been a body produced. That's another reason, right? So, well, it's like all they had to do to disprove it was say we have his body right
Dave Leake:here. Yeah, right. I have, I have Gary Habermas. He has like six, okay, take us through that are not disputed by secular historians, like they're just indisputable. Everybody agrees on this. So it's that Jesus died by crucifixion, you know, we definitely, definitely know that, right, right? That His disciples had real experiences that they at least thought were appearances of Jesus, okay, that the disciples were transformed even to the point of being willing to die for their message, right? James, the brother of Jesus, had a real experience where he thought he had, he had an appearance of Jesus. Paul also had a similar appearance to Jesus, and converted, and the message was proclaimed within one or two years from the crucifixion. So there's, like, all these accounts that are not just so people,
Jeff Leake:people could have said that didn't happen, like, Okay, what we have written in the gospel, they were these things were reported and recorded. You know, right after Jesus was raised, people then people when the when these books were circulating, these these Gospel accounts, people who could have said, I lived in Jerusalem at that time. I know that didn't happen, right? That's a total myth. But Christianity spreads from being just a handful of people to being the dominant force in the Roman Empire by the year 313 right? How could that be? If this central idea of what Christianity is, or who Jesus is, His resurrection, right, was was untrue,
Dave Leake:yeah, absolutely. And it's, oh, what do they call this? They're man. I am blanking on what this is called, but there, there are some events in history that they call a certain term. It's like a think of it in a second. It's like a capital event, but it's like one where, like, you never forget where you were. Like, 911 is right? Right? Yeah, COVID, yeah. Everybody remembers where you were, right? Well, maybe. Do I like, when you first heard about COVID, you shut it down the NBA or whatever, right? But definitely not 11. Like, if you're older than JFK being shot where you were when he first heard about the 911 Yeah, I was in here
Jeff Leake:in the church office. We were having a staff meeting. It was like a little bit after nine o'clock, someone called and said, hey, they flew a plane in the World Trade Center. Yeah, we had a TV that was hooked up in the office to a satellite because we were, we were purchasing some kind of conference that came over the satellite dish back of the day, and the only thing, only channel, that we got for free, was some channel in either Chinese or Japanese. It was a foreign station. So we stood there and watched with the sound off of as the second plane flew into the building, yeah? Like, it's one of these moments that marks you forever, right, right? So this kind of a moment, the resurrection of Jesus was one of those moments, yeah. So one of those, it's the moment, yeah, yeah,
Dave Leake:right. Like, for me, I remember being, like, probably 10, or, I think it was 10 at the time, yeah, you know, in mom's basement and coming down and seeing her crying after the first planet hit, and then watching live as the second one. I mean, like you never forget those moments. So one of the arguments is 1000s of people had that moment with the resurrection of Jesus, not just the crucifixion, but the resurrection of Jesus, and it immediately begins to spread, and is so convincing that it spreads across the globe, yeah. I mean, it's, it's and 50 days later, after his resurrection, yeah. Is the day of Pentecost, where 3000 people who were in Jerusalem decide to become followers of Jesus. Yeah. So, if this is a myth, a conspiracy, I mean that there's a and then before long, half of Jerusalem. So they say 25,000 of the 55,000 that lived in Jerusalem. Within a few years after the resurrection were all followers of Jesus. Yeah, if this is false, it seems pretty ludicrous to think that the very city where this hoax was pulled off would have half the city as followers. It's the thing is too it's not just like it was a religion, right? It wasn't. It starts off with this massive event that everybody knew about. It was the talk of the town as it was happening when they crucified Jesus. Yes, like 1000s were there that saw this happen. But then 1000s are witnesses to him, right? He appeared to many, many people over the 40 days after His resurrection, right? And then you have Pentecost. So when Pentecost happens and Peter preached this message about this Jesus, it's not like he's preaching about this mythical figure that they wouldn't have known. They all knew Jesus.
Jeff Leake:They had seen him do stuff in Jerusalem. They had huge and it was like he came preaching Jesus 12 he you have to agree to adhere to Jesus 12 principles. That isn't, that isn't what he they came preaching. If you read what Peter preaches on the day of Pentecost book, in the book of Acts, his central message is this, Jesus, that you killed came back from the dead, yes,
Unknown:and
Jeff Leake:they're all like he did, yeah, he did, right? Clearly, definitely did. Let's get baptized right now. And then Acts chapter three, they're walking to the temple again, paces away from where Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave, and there's a man who's crippled, and they pray for him in the name of the resurrected Jesus. And he begins to jump around, and he starts to walk. And they ask him what's happening. And he says, You tried to kill the author of life, but you couldn't. He came back from the dead. So like, the central message of Christianity wasn't a philosophy or moral teachings or principles about love, that what the disciples went around preaching after the resurrection of Jesus is that Jesus was alive
Dave Leake:based on a historical factual event that's verifiable, and the documents that we have from that period of history are like we know with way more certainty what happened from the Bible perspective, not because of The biblical authors, but just from other sources as well. From other source as well. Then we do in terms of the legitimacy that we do about certain things happening with Caesar or some of those ancient Roman emperors, like, there's there is just like, from a historical perspective, there is so much evidence that this was a real historical event that actually happened, you know. And I think that that's so one of the things that I found with Christianity is, the more that you look into it, the more that it's like, wow, this is, this is legitimate, yeah, you know, the only way you can really disqualify these types of things is if you're your starting place philosophically, or your worldview is nothing can happen that's supernatural, like only scientific. You know, natural laws are possible. There's nothing that can happen as there is no spirit world. There is no spiritual realm. There is no such thing as a miracle. If you start there, then you're like, it is, by definition impossible, because you believe only natural processes, right? But you sort of have to ignore historical accounts, and you have to make reasons that are natural in nature to actually explain it away. Because all of history really points to a bodily resurrection of Jesus, you know, I just think, honestly, from a scientific perspective, like, you know, Lee strobels case for the Creator. Outlines a bunch of proofs that we can, you know, have, as far as the world being created by by a designer, you know, by a cosmic designer, the person of God, it's and scientists don't argue with this either, you know, like when, when we look at the case for Jesus, but also the case for a creator, which are, you know, case for Christ, and one of his books as well. Like it, the evidence really is overwhelming. Yeah, you know, it's sort of, to me, it points to the spiritual blindness that the Bible talks about that's on the world. You know, you know that you
Jeff Leake:really owe it to yourself, if you are a skeptic and you're listening to this to maybe investigate a little further, like so here are some of the books that Lee Strobel wrote. They're really easy to read because every chapter is the interview of another expert that he journalistically looks into. So he has one called the case for Christ. There's one, a short book called The Case for Easter. This might be a good one to read during this particular season, by the way, Dave, you'll you'll like this net this latest book by Lee Strobel. It's called seeing the supernatural, and it is the seeing the supernatural, investigating angelic appearances. Wow, right, so, yeah. So he is documenting some of these supernatural claims. One's called the case for miracles. One's called the case for grace, case for the Creator, case for heaven. And again, all researched some things case for faith. So Lee has been a real gift to the to the world because of some of these researched approaches that he has. But let's go back to resurrection proof. So you just gave us the worldview collision, right? Dave, those who are naturalists and those of us who believe in Jesus, who believe in the supernatural, and the fact that Jesus, Christ is risen from the dead, continues to have proof over the centuries, because supernatural things happen when we use his name. Yeah, right, so we pray in the name of Jesus. And when that happens there, there are people who have been transformed, healed in their body, set free from addiction, transformed in the trajectory of their life, because they they, they prayed in Jesus name, right? And something supernatural happened as a result of that. And so he continues to prove himself, like, this is what I love so, so there's a lot of places to look for proof. History is one place. Archeology, archeology is one place. That's why I love to visit Israel, and I love to go to Jerusalem, and I love to go to the actual sites that are mentioned in the Gospels. Like, there's this place in Jerusalem called the pool, pool of bethsheda, Bethesda, where a man who couldn't walk was healed. And you can actually go to that spot where this man was healed by Jesus. And it's like, this is what's mentioned in the Scripture John chapter five. This is the place where it actually happened, and they've excavated it. So it's like, it's related to factual, visitable places, which also adds credibility to us. Absolutely,
Dave Leake:there's a clip of, there's a really cool clip that we have that is a audio clip of a pastor that, you know, I guess, what was his name? Okay,
Jeff Leake:so we're, we're gonna talk about, I think we may have mentioned this before, but we're gonna talk about this guy named Dwayne Miller. He was the pastor in Houston. In Houston, Texas. He actually was an assistant pastor on an on staff of a massive Baptist Church. Dwayne came to Allison Park Church in the 90s, and 2000s at least twice, maybe three times. So those of you who have been around Allison park for a while, you'll remember this story, and Dwayne had something go wrong with his vocal cords, or he couldn't talk at all. He had no push to his voice whatsoever. He could whisper, but basically all he was able to get out his air right? That's all he could do. So he's a pastor, but he has lost the ability to do the one thing most of us feel called to do, which is to teach and preach. And so he goes through this two year process of, you know, being treated and diagnosed, and they're trying to figure out what's wrong and what's causing this. And there was a class, a Sunday school class, of adults that felt like we're gonna we're gonna back pastor Dwayne up and give him a chance to teach. So they designed this special microphone for him that went right up against his lips and allowed for him to whisper his teaching. Right? So every week he would come in, and he would teach for 45 minutes, and he would wear out whatever he had of a voice, but basically, the only way they could hear him was through this specialized microphone that he had, and he happened to be teaching on Psalm 103, which says, Bless the Lord O my soul and all that is within me. Bless His holy name. Bless the Lord O my soul for getting out of all His benefits. Who forgives all our sin. And then the next phrase is, who heals all our diseases? And as he's teaching out of this section of Scripture, and he says, Who heals. All our diseases. You can actually hear on on a recording that his voice comes back. Yeah. So let's just, let's look at this clip. So that's the setup for it. So this is, this is on at Chris Brown, he posted this. He again, Dwayne's been here, but I could never find access to the recording. So telling,
Dave Leake:oh, it's all over the internet. Now there's one particular clip we have that, okay, but it's
Jeff Leake:powerful. But I can attest to this. This is, this is a legit thing. So let's go ahead and listen to this. Craig Brown, Crazy boy, son, all of my
Unknown:diseases. Let me say to you that I believe God still heals. That hasn't ended, that isn't is not over hell. You have to be careful on how you do this, because there are folks who carry things to an excess and it becomes a show. And God has never intended that that be what it is. God heals in his sovereign will. I don't know why God does things that he does, but I know that he does, and the only thing He requires of me is to allow him to be God and me to be me, and let it be to say that, since we don't have anything after the book of Acts, that miracles ended at the book of Acts And they never happen again, is equally as wrong, because you have put God in a box both ways. He doesn't want to be in the box. So the psalmist says, I'm excited. Bless the Lord. Oh my soul. One of his benefits is he heals all of my diseases. And in verse four, he says, And he redeems my life from the pit. Now I like that verse just a whole lot I have had, and you have had in times past experiences, he started to figure it out. We've both had, we've all had times when our life seemed to be in a pit in a grave, and we didn't have an answer for he had been like this For two years, the pit we find ourselves in. And I don't understand this right now, bird over ground at the moment, I'm not quite sure what to say or do. We can cut it there. Oh man, it's powerful.
Jeff Leake:I mean, I've heard that. I've heard that recording probably 20 times now, Dave, every time I hear it, it just makes, makes me weep. This is beautiful.
Dave Leake:Oh, man. I mean, he was, he was coming out of a somewhat Cessationist background, right? Yeah,
Jeff Leake:you could hear his theology a little bit. It's sort of like God sovereignly heals, but not, we don't understand why it ever happens, you know, but we're not going to say he never heals anymore. That's kind of what his perspective was.
Dave Leake:Yeah, he was saying before that. We didn't hear this part of the clip. He's like, to, you know, some of the people that say God heals like, almost like when you pray for it, like they're putting God in their own box, right? As if he's like a genie. But then to say it never happens is also put him in a box. He redeems my life from the pit. And you could hear, you can
Jeff Leake:hear it boom, and then it got a little stronger. So by the end, I mean, it's like, it's terrible, yeah? So he's like, softball, yeah? And his, I mean, His entire ministry after that, was just traveling and telling the story. He went around all over the world, telling the story about how God heals his voice, yeah? So, like, what do you do with that? So that happened, that happened to a man as he's reading the Word of God, a believer in the person of Jesus Christ. So if Jesus just as a historical figure and isn't really who he claims to be, how do you explain stuff like this? Right? And we could go on and tell so many other healing stories too, like people who called out in the name of Jesus. We've both had experiences, Dave, where we laid hands on someone and prayed over them in the authority of the name of Jesus, and something undeniable happened right before our eyes, so that it becomes for like, I mean, I just can't so for me, I can't understand how someone would not believe that Jesus rose from for me, it's, I'm just convinced beyond all any kind of objection. I mean, it's just absolute for certainty, in my opinion. And it is such a transformational thing that happens when you confess that, right? So that's where you see a guy like Joe Rogan, and you're like, Oh, you're so close. Like, I just let him push you over the edge. Judge. Because man, once you finally come to that realization of who he is, he changes everything, right? Yeah.
Dave Leake:I mean, I think, I think there is very strong evidence, but I just think, you know, Jesus talked about in mark four, where he says, like, you know that they're ever, ever seeing but ever perceiving, you know, ever hearing but never understanding. Think there's a level of spiritual blindness that prevents most people from actually being able to really explore and accept that. But clearly the intention of Jesus is to make himself known in the world, you know. And I think that's part of what what Easter is all about. I mean, it's it. I think it should be personal to us. Like to remember his death and resurrection, you know, from the cross the sacrifice that he made, but it's also to remind, I think, us of the fact that this is the commission that we've been given. Is to spread the word about Jesus, you know, because I think that that's that is his primary objective, is to make himself known to the world,
Jeff Leake:yeah, and remember that the objective isn't to preach religion to people. It's not to give people a list of rules. It's not to give them spiritual principles. It's not to teach them how to be good citizens. You're trying to introduce them to a person who's alive. So when you're presenting Jesus to people, it's not a religious concept, it's a person, right? You're just talking about the person of Jesus. You're talking about the person that you talk to every day, right? And you're trying to introduce them to someone that they have to know by faith, that's true, but someone that's very real. So actually, if you're a skeptic today and you're listening to this, maybe someone forwarded this to you, I would just say to you, if you're if you're really curious, start to say to Jesus, like, talk to him and say, Show me. Show yourself to me, if you're real, I really want to see he's not threatened by that at all. And and and again. Some people come to the table belligerent. They're angry, they're they're just here to disprove right. But for those who are genuinely spiritually curious, start to seek it out, read something study something like, if this really happened, if Jesus really did come back from the dead, there is nothing more important for you to know if it's true or not than this, because this changes everything, not just for this life, but for
Dave Leake:eternity. So okay, so maybe the last part of our conversation could be generated towards this. I think, I don't think we've talked about this for a little while. I can't remember if we have anyway. So if we're covering free, treading ground, sorry, but I'm just thinking about, you know, as believers acknowledging and celebrating the resurrection. When we see these cool there's obviously apologetic proofs, you know, right? The defense of the faith, logically, historically, scientifically, that's what apologetic says. But then there's also the signs of wonders, element you're talking about, right? So what are some of the ways that a Christian who wants to start to step out and to share the gospel, you know, to step out as an evangelist, if you will, to use that, that word, right, whether or not that's a calling, in terms of, like, being a full time evangelist, but I'm just saying, like to be someone who carries the message, message of the gospel. Like, what are some steps that if you're not used to sharing your faith, you've always felt like you should, you're intimidated by it? Like, how do we begin to even stay so I frame
Jeff Leake:my interactions with people, especially we live in a skeptical society that has been burned oftentimes because of encounters with Christianity or other religious faiths and been turned off, and there's like this pressure not to proselytize. So I try to frame my interactions with people that aren't yet Christ followers around three questions. Okay, I filter this in my mind. When I am having a conversation with somebody in the in the in the or if I have a friend, I think these three questions, okay, first question that I will ask often is, can I pray for you, like, maybe in the conversation, if I'm taking the time to listen and they start to voice something's going on in their life. My initial response is, Hey, would you mind if I pray for you? I mean, I can pray for you right now, or I can pray for you later. Can I pray for you? Not just demonstrates the love of God and a sense of empathy and compassion, but it gives Jesus an opportunity for a sign of wonder in that person's life, right, right? So that's one question. Sometimes I will ask them the question, Hey, you want to come to a party? Right? Okay, so what kind of a party? Well, we have an Easter egg hunt coming up. Hey, I know. Yeah, I got kids. It's a blast. Or Easter weekend is happening. You know? I just in Allison Park Church. I quoted for unchurched people, what do they say? 70% of unchurched people have never been invited to church because everybody's afraid to do that. But 82% according to statistics, would come to church if they were just asked. So most unchurched people are wanting to be asked now. They're not really wanting to be asked, Would you come to a religious meeting? Eating with me. They want to know. So if I'm asking you, I'm really saying, you want to, you want to be a part of my life? Like, I'm going to go to church, then we're going to go to Chipotle after, right? I'm going to go to church and we're going to go Starbucks after. Like, would you want to come hang out with me? And as a part of my normal activities, I go to church and, and, by the way, it's Easter, right? Like, so would you come to a party? That's the second what can I pray for you? Would you come to a party? Number three, can I tell you a story? So I always try to have a fresh story in my mind of something that I know God has recently done to answer a prayer or to heal somebody, or to you know it's coming back from Mission strips. I'm stock full from these, so I roll in to get my hair cut, or I'm being waited on by somebody in a conversation, I will often say, Hey, I just experienced the most amazing thing, and I'm just so pumped about it. Can I tell you this like? So that's actually the methodology that Jesus most often used, is he told stories? Yeah, right. He he didn't preach at people. He told them stories, and he and he gave, engaged with him. So for me, that's how I interact. I do. Can I pray for you? Would you? Would you join me in something, come to a party, and can I tell you a story? And that that opens the door for conversations, which is, I think, really what we're after? Yeah, we're not trying to get notches on our belt and show how many converts we have true. We're just trying to have conversations with people that lead them a step closer, yeah, to coming to understand Christ. Yeah.
Dave Leake:I think I've mentioned this before, but I read a book last summer, think it was last summer, that was by Bill Johnson, Randy Clark, and it was on healing, and Randy Clark was talking about how, before he was in ministry, he worked as, like, he was like an inspector. Well, that might not even be the right word, kind of like a manager for like, bakeries and donut shops and stuff. He'd like go in and fix their processes and stuff. And he said that early on, he felt like he wanted to start praying for healing. So his opening line would be something like, have you heard somebody had an illness or disease? He'd say, you know, hey, I'm a Christian. I've seen, you know, God heal people when I pray. Doesn't always happen, but sometimes it does. Can I pray for you? And they're usually like, yeah, sure, yeah. And he saw a lot of healings that happened just by that, you know, opening line. And he was saying that in his opinion, like in his, like, you know, just his, his antidotal experiences were, like most people that aren't Christians are way more open to the idea that God might heal them than Christians who grew up believing God doesn't really do that anymore. Yeah, you know, he says they're believing unbelievers. You know what? I mean. They believe God can potentially, they're open to they most likely won't. Yo, yeah. So non believing believers, they believe in Jesus, but they don't really believe he's gonna heal, right? But believing unbelievers, like, Oh, God might do that, but they don't believe in Jesus yet. But I just thought that was interesting. I do think that's true. Like most people, if you say that, they're like, Okay, I'm not gonna question your experience. Like, yeah, sure. You can pray for me, sure, and often, anything that might help. And I think often, that's where God does the biggest miracle. I actually,
Jeff Leake:so people often ask the question, why do we not see more people healed in Western culture, and you go to various places around the world and you see, see it more prominent. I actually, I actually think that's false. I think the reason why we talk about what happens on missions experiences is because in those moments, we've all gone on an assignment for two weeks where all we're going to do is preach and pray, right and we get 1000s of people on a field. We pray for the sick right there. We come back well, because we're all in Unity. We're all working towards that one goal, whereas we come home, we're living our lives and we're distracted, and we raising kids, and we're taking to soccer practice and paying bills, etc, but I think most often, God demonstrates His healing power in the preaching of the Gospel to someone that is not saved. It's like, that's why we call it signs and wonders, because it's a confirming sign of the message that's preached. So when you're telling somebody about Jesus that has not yet come to faith, it's more likely at that intersection where they are yet still not a believer, that as you share the gospel with them, that God confirms with signs and wonders. Because that's a big part of what healing is. It's not just a covenant provision to us we're like healing is the children's bread, but it also is one of the greatest signs that Jesus is alive. And so when we preach it to cultures that doesn't that has never heard the gospel before, I think Johannes Amritsar has said it's like when a warm front and a cold front collide, that's where you see Thunder, lightning. Yeah, right, right. So where the powers of darkness exist, and we come in with the power of the gospel, the light and the darkness collide, and there's sparks that fly. I think that happens anytime the gospel is preached.
Dave Leake:By the way, there you said, healing is a children's bread. There's certain things that are part of a relationship with God that God says, this is just because you're my child, right? One of those things is physical healing. Right? There are some really, really good books on on physical healing. I think a lot of times people have questions like, this is something that, come on, Dave, you're the book guru recommends. Well, Johannes has one that's called how Jesus healed the sick and how you can too. Yeah, it's
Jeff Leake:a good one. That's a really good one. There's a really great book out just recently called, you are God's miracle deliveries. That's right, yeah. Who's that? Who is that author? Yeah, that's the latest book that I wrote about the power of the Holy Spirit and how God wants to use you to carry a miracle into somebody else's life by your willingness to pray for them. Excellent.
Unknown:How can they? How can they find that setup?
Jeff Leake:It's on Amazon or any other place that you might buy books from, right? So you are God's birthday definitely worth three, yeah. But then there's the one that you just mentioned from Bill Johnson.
Dave Leake:Let me see what it's called. Were you there other ones
Jeff Leake:that you were thinking of today that you were going to mention, or was that just truly a setup for me to talk about? It's
Dave Leake:called the essential, Essential Guide to healing. No, no, no. I, I actually, I knew we were supposed to talk about that, but I forgot we're supposed to talk about that. The reason why I'm bringing that up is I think, okay, here, here's the whole thing. And this is, I think we've done a podcast on this, but this is one of those things that I think probably is good to revisit at some point. Think a lot of Pentecostals meaning they believe in the Acts of the Holy Spirit still viable today. Holy Spirit still gives gifts to people to use as signs and wonders. I think a lot of us are like closet Pentecostals, and sort of there's this, like fear of I'm not really sure that Pentecostals have good theology, because everybody says we're just in it for emotional experiences, and I've seen some stuff happen. But how, how valid is any of this? You know,
Jeff Leake:part of the reason why I wrote the book, because the other reason is people have never been practically taught how this works in a non hyped way, yeah? And they don't know the practical value it carries in their own life, in an everyday kind of expression, and they don't know how to handle it in a normalized fashion, not an overly emotional fashion, yeah? And so a lot of Pentecostals have had personal experiences with the Holy Spirit that they know they can't deny, but they're not sure to how to flesh that out in the way that they live their life and still be the normal human being that they are in every other space. And it is possible for the work of the Holy Spirit to be not just powerful, but practical. It's not that. It's not emotional, because, yeah, when God moves in the world, it's it's an emotional experience. But emotionalism doesn't have to lead the way. Agree like you can actually keep your head about you and know what you're operating in in a very sane and calm fashion, and see answers to prayer happen and transformation take place. And so people hide their Pentecostalism because they they're feel a little embarrassed by it, and they feel also like they're not sure how to have handles with it. So
Dave Leake:the thing is, there are all kinds of differing views on different parts of theology in the Bible, right? I don't think that, you know, I would say there's a lot of things I would not make huge truth claims on but regardless, as as your theory, theological background, I think everybody should be Pentecostal, because that's that is so clear, yeah, like, like, whether, whether you're Lutheran or Methodist or Anglican or Assemblies of God, let's,
Jeff Leake:let's take the label away, and let's say everyone should live as if the book of Acts were for today, yes,
Dave Leake:and that the Holy Spirit's still in operation for Pentecostal.
Jeff Leake:People believe that everything we read about in the book of Acts didn't disappear then, but it's the normal way we should be living today. And it's not
Dave Leake:I, in my view, it's not enough just to say, Well, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, right? Just unless God does it like I think some people are too crazy about it. I think maybe you need to be a little bit more hungry, because, like, because, like First Corinthians, 12 and 14, the whole urging of Paul is eagerly desire these things. All this to say there's a world out there that needs you to be God's miracle delivery system. Yeah.
Jeff Leake:So think about it. If Jesus is alive, anything's possible. If Jesus rose from the dead, he defeated death itself. And if Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to live inside of you as a believer, so Jesus is alive, and the Holy Spirit lives in you. And you're you're walking around with a potential explosive partnership of the Holy Spirit to break on the scene at any moment. And there's 1000s and 1000s and millions of people who have still not come to faith in Christ, and you carry the divine potential of the Spirits power in your life. This is the most important thing that you can know as a Christian, is how to be in relationship with the Holy Spirit, so that, so that you can see signs and wonders happen and prove that Jesus is alive, and see healing happen and see people minister to so I from a missional perspective, from a missional perspective, from a missional perspective with Jesus, spiritual goose bumps, that something, something wild and weird happened, but so that and so that people's needs are met, so people's prayers are answered, and whole family lines are changed because of of experiences that people have with with the power of God. Yeah, and and, so, yeah, like I said before, I'm not only convinced of the resurrection of Jesus. I can't, I can't even imagine there being anything more important in the whole world than just because it's changed everything. Yeah. So pick up that book. It's called, you are God's miracle delivery system, yeah, or any of the other ones mentioned, right? We got to get an audio version of this, by the way, I'm working on that. Are you actually, I found a way to self produce, so I'll probably be for several of the books that I've written. Create so audio. So
Dave Leake:many of us, I think, are audio almost exclusively. It's just it's hard to sit down and actually take the time. So do we have a general timeline of by the fall? Okay, yeah. So we will let you know when the audio version is out. If you're not a, you know, sit down and read kind of person, but it, regardless what I was, what I was getting at is, I think that the kind so, whether we're talking about case for creator, case for Christ, or we're talking about, you know, the validity of healing or of the gifts of the Spirit as part of theology, if there are things that you're unsure about, but you're like, Oh, I hope this is true. I want this to be true. I'm hungry for this. I think everybody owes it to themselves to do a little bit of study and research and to educate yourself, because there's a there's a level of confidence whenever you you know are able to correctly handle the Word of God, as Paul says to Timothy,
Jeff Leake:yeah, and correctly and skillfully partner with the Holy Spirit. That's right, yeah, that's
Dave Leake:right. I think that that has opened up a new dimension of my walk with Jesus. I'm not talking about the healing part so much, but just becoming better acquainted with why I believe what I believe. Of you know the confirmation of the legitimacy of the person of Jesus, of you know the scientific nature of creation, but also of the fact that God does want to heal. You know, he's not uncertain about this. Or you have to be a certain you have to be good enough, or he only picks certain people. Like the more I've become acquainted with what Scripture says, the more I have confidence in that, yeah, and I know there are people that are hungry. I just, I just met somebody yesterday at the Northside campus. We were talking after service, and he's about to go to Army Ranger School. And as we were talking, you know, I just was sensing like there's this purpose under life. And I think so many people just like him, it's like, maybe you're in the army, or maybe you're in medical school, or maybe you're in, you know, an education role, but like, every person is God's specific miracle delivery system for that context that you're in. And like, the world is never gonna be reached the way that Jesus wants it to be, unless each person in their individual context becomes, you know, as you said, a miracle delivery system for the gospel to those people that are in your sphere of influence. So I guess I'm just calling out like there's more for you, regardless as to who you are.
Jeff Leake:Yeah, and, and the fact of the matter is, when God works in the world, he primarily works through us, not independent of us, meaning that God does give dreams and visions and drops healings on people who who aren't being ministered to or talked to by a Christian or a spiritual leader, but most often he he delivers an answer to prayer through somebody else who's a willing conveyor of that and so. So that's why there are there are prayers going unanswered, and there are people that are going unministered To because we aren't making ourselves available to skillfully work with him. By the way, since we've done some book commercials, we should probably throw this into before we end the conversation. Allison Park Leadership Academy is designed to be a school of the Spirit in a way like it's designed to give you the practical application tools as to how to live this life with a mission experience at the end. And so we're in the spring now of 2025, in the fall, we'll have our 17th year of the school. So if you're interested in more information about that, we'd love to have conversations with you about that too. Yeah, yeah.
Dave Leake:Essentially, I to let me, let me go off of that. If you felt a stirring or a tugging on your heart from God like, I need something more. I need more development. I need more training. I want to go to the next level. I want to be, you know, used by God in a powerful way. Then maybe that's God tugging in your heart to take a big leap of faith and do something like Allison Park Leadership Academy. You know, I don't know how my job is going to work out. Or I need finances. I have family to feed. Well, just start the process of this conversation with us. You can apply if
Jeff Leake:you want to come in and audit one of the classes between now and the beginning of May, we'd be happy to have you. But either way, start to lean in in your relationship with God and ask him the question, Jesus, I believe you're alive. How do you want to use me today, or show me more of who you are? If you're a skeptic and you're you're in this resurrection season, say Jesus, if you really are who you say you are, if you're really alive, show show yourself to me, yeah, and I believe that God's gonna help you take next steps with him.
Dave Leake:I'm looking at your jacket right now. That call jacket. Yeah. Initiative that we have with the Assemblies of God to talk about the call of God people's life. I'd love to do another episode sometime soon, just on that one, yeah, just because I think I've, I've started to sense again recently, I think there's a lot of hunger, like, because a lot of people are starting to sense, like, God's called me to something bigger than where I am right now, maybe even into ministry, although it's terrifying to me. Like, yeah, I've had so many these conversations, so I'd love to talk more about this, because maybe, as we're talking about being used, somebody's like, wow, I wish it was more. And maybe it is, you know,
Jeff Leake:so if you have that in your heart, God has put it there for a reason, yeah, don't ignore it. Don't ignore it, because he has a pathway for you. He wouldn't put that in your heart not give you a pathway forward to explore how to do that. So he already has something mapped out for you. And so you just simply, simply have to say to God, what's my next step? You know? And he'll help it. And as pastors, we're here to help you on that journey too. So
Dave Leake:you don't have to, we'll talk about less more, maybe another episode. You don't have to know. For fact, you're called to start the journey to say, Maybe I am. It's a little intimidating, but I want to explore this. Well, we know
Jeff Leake:you're called to something, whatever you end up doing, even if it is medicine or science or education or the arts or what you know, whatever it is, if you're in it, you're called to it, but you're called to be a representative of Jesus there, right? And so knowing whether you're called to ministry as a as a vocation, or if you're called to where you're supposed to be and you're to minister there, clarifying that, because everybody's called somewhere, and some of us are called to be, you know, equippers in the church. But
Dave Leake:I mentioned this to say, because I think we do this too often, that there is something actually gives you an out. Yeah, there is actually. It's not all the same, yeah, like you know it's, it's all holy unto God, if you make it holy unto God by dedicating it to him. But there's something extra special and significant about people that are
Jeff Leake:called we should probably stop here and tease that as something for a future episode, because it sounds like we could go another, we could hour on this, right? Okay,
Dave Leake:but so let's dangle that though. If that maybe is you, yeah, don't let that die out. You know, start to press in and ask God, and we'll have, yeah,
Jeff Leake:we'll have more on that discussion. Hey. Well,
Dave Leake:we, as we close, we'd so appreciate you joining again, and we say this every time, but we're so thankful that you're a part of this, this podcast with us. There's a lot of ways we'd love to just ask for quick support. So you know you don't, don't have to invest any money in this. This is just five minutes max your time. If you're on YouTube, Like and subscribe to the channel and comment let us know your thoughts. Yep,
Jeff Leake:and that's happening more and more. And we like when we hear comments, and we like when we get suggestions back about future topics, yeah.
Dave Leake:So you can do that. You can subscribe to the podcast. You can leave us a five star review in whatever platform you're on, or just, you know, hit that little Share button. It's usually like a little paper airplane, and you can copy link or text directly to a friend, send it to some people that might benefit by hearing this, but we appreciate you. If you could help us spread the word, that'd be amazing. So we'll catch you guys again next time you.