Is Expecting a “Heavenly Reward” the Same Thing as the Prosperity Gospel?

Is expecting a “heavenly reward” the same thing as the prosperity gospel?

In this episode of the podcast, we explore what the Bible says about heavenly rewards and why living with an eternal perspective changes everything.

When life is hard, obedience feels costly, and your faith goes unnoticed—God sees it all. The pain you endure and the faithfulness you choose are not wasted. There is a purpose beyond the temporary, and Scripture promises that eternal rewards in heaven are waiting for those who don’t give up.

If you’ve ever wondered, “Is it worth following Jesus?” or “Does God reward us for staying faithful?”—this episode will encourage you to live for what matters most.

🔔 Subscribe for more conversations about purpose, faith, and the Kingdom of God.

👉 Subscribe for weekly conversations on faith and culture

Rethink Revive is a podcast where we carry on Pastor Jeff Leake’s legacy by having honest conversations about faith, leadership, grief, and navigating change in a rapidly shifting world. 

Whether we’re addressing cultural trends, spiritual questions, or everyday challenges of faith, our goal is simple: to help you think deeply, live faithfully, and experience renewal in God’s presence. Formerly known as the Allison Park Leadership Podcast.

Transcript

Copy

Dave Leake: 0:00

Have you ever thought about whether asking God for an eternal reward is greedy? We talk a lot about the prosperity gospel and how materialism is evil, and we should be serving God, not just for blessings, but also just because he's good, but the Bible talks an awful lot about heavenly reward. In fact, one of the things we're gonna discuss in this episode is how we maybe lost a view on eternity. Today we're gonna be talking all about how what I do impacts me, not just now but in the next life, why I should be concerned, and how to make sure we're ready for either when Jesus comes back or then in my life. So if you're curious, tune in. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where we have our culture creating conversations. My name is Dave. My name is

Jeff Leake: 0:44

Jeff. We're glad you've joined us today. Of course, Allison Park Church, we're both on staff. I'm the Lead Pastor. Dave's the Northside campus pastor at least for a few more months before you head on to Jacksonville to plant your church there. And we're also father and son, and we love being able to interact with you in this format, so Dave, I'll pitch it back to you.

Dave Leake: 1:06

Yeah, no new gratitudes today. But as always, we just want to thank the listeners who are a part of the show. Thanks for being a part. And if you want a specific shout out, you can always leave a five star review in Apple podcast where we'll see your name. We would love to just say thank you to you personally. Yeah, all right, let's get into

Jeff Leake: 1:23

it. So we have received quite a bit of input, yeah, over the last couple of weeks from people that are sending us topics to cover true. So we appreciate that too. You preached a series. I'm getting ready to so as well. You did preach a series. Yeah, yeah, no

Dave Leake: 1:37

questions on because you were talking about doing things and expecting, what did you Yeah,

Jeff Leake: 1:43

so the series was on world views, and it was called, Oh man, I'm drawing a mic now, what it was called, but anyway, I was talking about the Christian worldview versus the current popular culture worldview in in in March, and I talked about the concept of the Christian worldview in its approach, the way we think about work. Was it life inside the box? Life Inside the box? Yes, and and so the and the life inside the box series was basically this concept that in order to follow Christ, the Christian worldview is all based upon being willing to die to yourself, therefore to get in the box, so to speak. You know, kind of that permanent box, our coffin, die to ourselves, so that we can live in Christ and so that's completely opposite of the popular culture worldview, which is basically individualistic self expression, right? Which is to to be you. You be you, right? The Christian worldview is you be Jesus, right? So, okay, so we're talking about the the approach to work, what we do every day. And I was quoting from Colossians chapter three, which says, Whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, knowing that he will reward you right, knowing that he will give you an inheritance as your reward. And I was talking about the fact that everything in life counts like what we do in life, if we do with the right attitude, and we do it as unto God, you know that it counts for eternity, and that part of what we get is an inheritance in heaven, we get a heavenly reward. And I actually got quite a few people that kind of push back on that, because that concept of getting a reward in heaven was somewhat foreign. It's kind of like disappeared in some ways, from our conversations in church or our theological perspectives, because the world is so much about now, right? And so the thought of I'm suffering in this moment with the right attitude so that I can lay up a reward in the next moment, and that that has sort of disappeared from our framework and the way we think about life and our current culture. So coming up this weekend, so we're now last week of May here, and we're doing a series called divine metrics, and we're going to be talking about at the Hampton campus. We're going to be talking about, you know, preparing ourselves for the moment of judgment, and what we should be doing with our lives, and how we maximize our life here on earth so that we get a maximized return in eternity. But I think I don't know how much we think about this anymore, and I'm actually curious to hear what you think, Dave about. What if this has disappeared from our

Dave Leake: 4:34

well, so world, tell me why you got pushback.

Jeff Leake: 4:38

So one, one person wrote me, and they said, in our life group, we were talking about this, and it felt a little bit weird to us, like, should we really be working to get a reward? Doesn't that sound a little bit like prosperity teaching, you know, like, almost like you give to get so shouldn't we have more altruistic motives, like we do what we do just to please God, and we don't really worry? Much about reward. And I wrote back, and I said, well, obviously the Apostle Paul was using reward as a motivator. He was saying, what you're going through right now is difficult. Actually, the verse I just quoted in Colossians, chapter three, was written to slaves who were being treated unjustly. And he was saying, realize that even in that unjust, unjust situation where you're being exploited and taken advantage of, if you take your work and you do it not for the man, but you do it for God, it translates into an inheritance that's eternal, so that you can so actually there's a concept of justice in this, that which our world is very much talking about justice all the time. Heaven is a place of justice. It's a place where what you did and how you were treated and what you endured will count forever, right? It matters, and if it didn't matter, it would feel a little bit, I guess you say, extra unfair.

Dave Leake: 5:56

Well, I guess eternity in general, whether or not it's heaven or hell, is where everything is finally just, yeah, yes, except by the grace of God, where what's what would be just for us has been already revoked and canceled.

Jeff Leake: 6:10

Okay, you have to unpack that a lot. So what

Dave Leake: 6:13

would be just for everybody is hell, but because of Jesus, sacrifice, where he, you know, paid for what we did or for all of our sins, that justice would require punishment for because he paid for that, we don't get justice for that. We get Grace instead. But I'm saying you were saying Heaven is a place of justice, okay? But, but

Jeff Leake: 6:32

that okay? So I think this is where some of the misunderstanding comes in. There are two judgments that are described in the Scripture. You're right, and if you mix them, so, so the first, the first one that you just described is called the Great White Throne, and it's described in Revelation chapter 20, and it's this moment where every human being has ever lived is going to stand before God, and the books are going to be open, and we're going to be judged based upon what we've done, right? And, yeah, so great white throne. What are you

Dave Leake: 7:00

I thought the great white throne was only for non Christians. I thought the judgment seat of Christ was for Christians. Okay, we're getting really theological.

Jeff Leake: 7:07

So technically, yeah, the Great White Throne, but, but it says anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. That's what we find, right? Okay, so ultimately, if my name's in the book of life, I'm standing in line waiting for my moment of judgment, and the angel looks up in the book to see if my name is there. So technically I am. I'm present in that one, right? Sure, sure. So the horror of that moment is that not everyone's name is found written in the book of life, so I guess basically the Great White Throne Judgment is kind of a pass fail, right? Either you're corrupted by sin or you have received the anecdote for it, right? Either you have like to use computer language a virus in your system that hasn't been cured, and therefore you must be destroyed, because the judgment of God is not just about you and me. It's about destroying and cleansing the universe of evil, okay, so anyone who's still stained with evil or infected by it, corrupted by it, gets destroyed in that judgment. And those of us who've received the fix for the corruption inside of us, right, who have received the Holy Spirit, who've been given eternal life based upon the nature of God, our names are written in the book of life, and we escape the judgment, because judgment fell on Jesus at the cross. Okay? So in that case, Justice would be that you and I would be punished for our sin, because God's going to destroy all evil. And we have, we have evil hearts, just like everybody has an evil heart. Mercy is that Jesus took our place on the cross and died in our place and paid for our sin, so that we don't have to be eternally judged and punished, and so our names are written in the book of life because we put our faith in Christ, and that's the hope we have for all of eternity. It's the mercy and grace of God that we look forward to when we face that great, great wet Throne judgment, that we will escape the flames of judgment and will enter into the kingdom of heaven, right by the way,

Dave Leake: 9:07

we'll get back on topic in a minute, but I guess this is still sort of on topic. You were talking about losing the perspective of eternity in everyday life. I guess as Christians, I do think even maybe for some people hearing this about the judgment seat of Christ and the Great White Throne. I mean, the Great White Throne of Judgment may literally be like God's giant heavenly throne that he sits on as every person passes in front of him to receive this. That's like, not like Norse mythology. You know what? I mean? Yeah, it's not like, That's Biblical. Yeah, that's but it's biblical in the sense that it's literally going to happen. I mean, it may be symbolic in some ways, but it's a it is a chronological event that will take place in history, that everybody will experience. And I think this is part of what we're going to discuss today, is the reality of these end time events. Does that make sense? I don't

Jeff Leake: 9:59

even. Would you call an End Time Event? Well, the Great White Throne of Judgment is end time. It's ultimate end time event, like, it's not like the fulfillment of prophecy here on earth end times. It's the actual last moments of of what happens with the current heavens and earth, according to the according to the scripture, right? But, yeah, here's, here's what it says apocalyptic. Then, is that about? Yeah, yeah, right, a pocket which defined that word for us.

Dave Leake: 10:28

I will in a second. I always think of apocalyptic pocket lip tech as, you know, having to do with, with the last days, with the end times, with what's coming at the end of the world. It refers to the, well, this is, this is chat GPT. Anyway, it refers to the revelation. We're now incorporating this in our show since the last

Jeff Leake: 10:51

episode, okay, let's just pause for a moment. The last episode we did was on AI and the ethics of it in the church, and what it's going to mean in the future. And we had will host who did such an amazing job of describing that. As we got ready to start this episode, you said to me, what? Oh, I've

Dave Leake: 11:05

been using it. I've been using even more, even more, probably every day I'm using it now. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, the term apocalyptic refers the revelation of widespread or catastrophic destruction, often associated with the future period about people, comes from the Greek Greek word apocalypsis, meaning revelation or uncovering, but essentially, it's about what's going to happen at the end of the heavens and the earth. It's often referred to in the time of revelation apocalyptic literature or Daniel prophecies about the end of the world. But it probably also refers to the judgment before we have the final resting you know of heaven, the new heavens, New Earth, permanent utopia, paradise with God. And then you know, destruction in hell. And the description

Jeff Leake: 11:50

of the events that lead up to the end of all things, right, there you go. And the beginning of something brand new. I

Dave Leake: 11:56

think, I think the we could just say the apocalypse, or whatever we want to call it the end the I think all of those things feel mythological, even to many Christians. And I guess so we're going to talk about heavenly reward. But part of the problem is, I think that we have become so earthly minded that we don't think about heavenly things.

Jeff Leake: 12:18

Yeah, it's all about now, spiritual reality, about now, it's about me. It's about what I feel.

Dave Leake: 12:23

It also can but even if we then make a Christian, maybe, let's say it's about us. It's about us and justice now, right? And it's about things being us and reward now, yeah, it's about us and breaks here. Now it's about as Earth as is in heaven. About earth, not about heaven, right? Right?

Jeff Leake: 12:40

Right? About Earth specifically? Yeah, it's not about the eventual things. It's about the immediate things. We think of

Dave Leake: 12:45

heaven as a state of being that can exist now, but not about the actual place and the eventual reality that that will be, yeah, or, I mean, we think of people dying, going to heaven, you know, we do, right? So when

Jeff Leake: 12:56

someone is lost from us, we think one day we're all going to get there and it's going to be awesome. We'll have wings, it's going to be better, it's going to be better than it is. It is now. But yeah, I do think we live in we live in a we live in a world that's almost entrapped in an earthly perspective

Dave Leake: 13:12

and also a naturalistic perspective. We've had whole conversations about the spiritual world and demonic and angelic entities that are around us all the time. That's

Jeff Leake: 13:22

true, some of our best and most listened to episodes, actually, right?

Dave Leake: 13:26

But, but the fact that our world is heading towards an end, yeah, a real end where Jesus will literally come back on a white horse, yeah, and conquer evil and judge the world, and it will be a terrible time for those that aren't in Christ, and a wonderful time those that are. That's a reality. And so here's, here's what I was saying. Okay, let me, let me try to frame where my mind is when you're talking about your serious divine metrics that's coming up. You said people, some people, had an almost a visceral reaction when discussing the idea of heaven, heavenly reward, because it sort of feels a bit like prosperity. Like, aren't we then just doing things just for our own gain? Like, isn't that the opposite of the Bible, where prosperity, you know, gospel, the the famed evil thing happening in the West, in America specifically, is the idea of give more because you're going to get a yacht. You know what? I mean, like tithe because you're gonna get more blessings. And it's all about, it's all about our best life. Now, that's the idea, I guess, that people push back against with,

Jeff Leake: 14:32

and that somehow Christianity is just a recipe for prosperity. Exactly, you lose the aspects of die to yourself and suffer for Christ, and, you know, sell it all and give it all away and live for something other than just the acquisition of more wealth or property or or blessing. Whereas

Dave Leake: 14:50

heavenly reward is sort of the opposite idea, right? It's, it's working for a reward, but not a prosperity earthly reward. It's working for a heavenly reward. I. I think part of the reason why we're so detached from that in culture is because we're detached from the actual idea of heaven or the end times and all this stuff. I mean, we were just talking about this, and I think we've had a conversation at some point about, you know, the end times and stuff we've talked about probably even recently, like the era of the 90s and 2000s you know, I think of the left behind books series,

Jeff Leake: 15:25

yeah. So I grew up in the 70s, in an era where Jesus, that's what it's called, yeah, thief in the night movie, where the rapture happens and and you weren't ready, and you're left behind to endure the tribulation of the Antichrist, and you're, you know, being threatened to take the mark of the beast, and you're running for your life. Okay, that was sort of the movie and the vibe of all what we would call, you know, pre millennial, pre tribulation theologians at the time and teaching at the time. However, it was more than that for me, like I heard so many messages growing up about one day I'm going to stand before God, like about the ultimate judgment that that I lived with a constant awareness that my every second mattered, yeah, like my every decision mattered. Like my God wasn't just watching whether or not he's going to punish me or not, because I was also taught that Jesus Christ took the punishment for my sin. But But after that, after receiving forgiveness, I was the Scripture challenges to live a life worthy of what you've received. And then if you do, one day, you're going to hear the words, well done good, my good and faithful servant, and you're going to receive your reward in heaven. And so for me, like the accountability of the fact that I'm going to one day be evaluated for how I'm living was constantly up in my face. And I guess I wonder, I'm wondering if somehow that's been lost from the Christian vibe. So here's what I was going to say earlier, the Great White Throne. Let's just stay there for a moment. Here's what it says in Revelation chapter 20, I saw a great white throne, and him who was seated on it. And listen to this, the earth and the heavens fled from his presence. So it almost gives you this ultra dramatic moment that it's so awesome and so holy and so overwhelming that everything flees from him like warps reality. Yes, like he and so here we are standing before and I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. So this is moment where, okay, it's our time now to be evaluated. God's getting ready to reboot the earth, chapter 21 and 22 of Revelation. But before he does, he's going to judge. And it says another book is open, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, meaning those that are have died and are standing before God as recorded, recorded in the books. And the seed gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them. And each person was judged according to what they had done, Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. Okay, so this is one of the most penetrating, intimidating moments that's described for us in the Scripture. And just reading those verses about, you know, the earth and the sea fleeing from him and the holy presence of an almighty. But this is, this is the ultimate moment that that one day, you know, what does it say? Hebrews, chapter nine, verse 27 It's appointed to for for a person once to die, and then comes the judgment we're all going to have this moment in time in our life. Now, the hope that I have this doesn't hold terror for me, because I know my name is written in the book of life. I put my faith in Jesus Christ. I know he died on the cross to pay for my sin. I know he rose from the grave to give me the hope that when I die, I'm also going to experience a resurrection, so I'm confident My name is in the book of life, and I'm not going into that moment, while I will have a huge awe for who God is and being in his presence, I'm not worried about the fear of judgment because of the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. Now I think what's happened is there isn't there is a second judgment that we all go through, for those of us that are going into heaven now, there's a second judgment we experienced. And I think we take the grace and mercy moment of the first judgment and we bleed it over into the second judgment, where actually you are objectively judged on what you've done with your life, not so to be punished, but to be rewarded. Yeah, the second judgment is a judgment of reward, right and grace and mercy at that moment are not as much a factor. It's now objective. It's like, what have you done with your life? What did you do with your money? What did you do with your time? How did you use your gifts? Did you just waste it all? Or will you have something to offer God at that time? I actually think that's part of what the reward is. So wait, wait,

Dave Leake: 19:46

don't, don't go to the word describe how grace and mercy aren't apart, aren't a part of us. It's more objective. Okay, well, expand on that, then you get into the reward. But yeah, so All right, brushing that too quick, yeah.

Jeff Leake: 19:58

So I'm. Let me look up a verse and give me your reaction to that. What do you know? What I mean by that? So, I mean none of us can do anything apart from the grace of God. So ultimately, his grace is there, but we do have a choice that has to be made. And and so, um, yeah,

Dave Leake: 20:14

so you're talking about so Second Corinthians 510, says, For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of May, each of us, may receive what is due for the things done in body, whether good or bad. Yeah, is good or bad, you know, I think I'll find this reference. But I think Peter talks about how some things are like things we're talking about trial, trials, but some things are going to be, you know, burnt away, like chat, yeah.

Jeff Leake: 20:40

Well, here's, here's, here's what it is. So first, Corinthians, chapter three, verse 10, by the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder. Okay, so grace is involved there, because we can't do anything, sure, unless we've received grace. Right? And then it says, If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver and costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the day, capital D, right, the day, which is talking about Judgment Day, will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. If what has been built with your life survives, the builder will receive a reward, yeah. If it's burned up, the builder will suffer loss, but yet will be saved, even though, as one escaping through the flames

Dave Leake: 21:31

just made it in by the skin of their teeth, yeah. So

Jeff Leake: 21:33

some people will make it into heaven empty handed, right? And other people will make it into heaven and and their life will be revealed as being a life that's filled with lasting things like, you know, not actual silver or gold, right, or precious stones, but something resembling that, that you know, lasting value will be the result of your life. So we're all going to look back, and we're either going to be like, Man, did I wish I could go back and do that again, because I wasted my life, or, man, I live well, right? And so what I've done matters for eternity. And this is the second judgment, which is so when the fire judges the wood, hay and stubble, there's no mercy in that it just is consumed. And when it judges the gold, silver and precious stones, there's no grace in that it just it just has inherent value to it. So your life will have an inherent worthlessness or an inherent value that will get revealed at that second judge.

Dave Leake: 22:41

So meaning this is not so much an issue of judgment for sin. No, this is just judgment for good and bad actions, and it determines the status and possessions and responsibilities and life ultimately that you have on the other side. Actually, Hebrews describes some people being martyred in worse ways to receive a better resurrection. Yeah, that and Hebrews 11, right? It does where it says. Or I'll pull this up really quick. It's Hebrews 1135 and it's this whole chapter about faith. Let's see. Here's what it says this I'll just read starting in verse 32 what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon Barak, Samson, Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets who, through faith, conquered kingdoms, administered justice it was promised, who shut the mouths of lion lions, quenched the fury of flames, then escaped the edge of a sword, whose weakness was turned to strength and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back of their dead race of life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging and even changed in imprisonment. They were put to death by stoning. They were sawed in two. They were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goat skins, destitute, persecuted, mistreated. The world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes and in the ground. And then it says these were all commended by their further faith. Yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us, so that only together with us would they be made perfect. It's all talking about this idea of the life people lived by faith, expecting something better than what they could possibly receive here on Earth, but the end of that where it's like they were tortured, refusing to be released so they might gain an even better resurrection. Jeez, that's crazy, yeah.

Jeff Leake: 24:36

Does it feel the same way? That's a complete opposite way of thinking from our current culture, right? Yeah.

Dave Leake: 24:41

They're like, here, we're done torching you. You can go. And they're like, no, just kill me. I'd rather be martyred because,

Jeff Leake: 24:47

no, I actually think it was more like them saying, If you deny Jesus, we'll let you go. That's the idea. Okay, okay, yeah. And, and they said, No, I'm not going to because. They did not want to get on the other side and look Jesus in the eye and say, I quit on you. Yeah.

Dave Leake: 25:06

They were stoned, sawed in two, killed by the sword, persecuted and mistreated. I love how it says the world was not worthy of them, but they did it because of what had been promised, because God had planned something better for us together. That's cool, yeah. And I do think we've totally lost that. I think even within not just Christian circles, not casual cultural Christian circles, I think radical Christian circles have lost and

Jeff Leake: 25:31

so, so I have some theories about what the reward looks like. Can I unpack that? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. So I don't think it's like everyone gets to heaven and they get a credit card, and you happen to have a lot of money loaded on yours, because you did really good, and other people are flat broke, and they have to scrape through for all of eternity. I don't think, I don't think it's the same kind of reward that we think of here, okay, one, one type of the reward, I think, is we get recognition. So Jesus looks at us and says, Wow, well done. I'm so proud of you. Now, there's a difference between His love and His approval, right? So, so you know, just to be able to know like, like Paul talks about live a life worthy of what Jesus has done for you. So part of the reward is that we will get to bring with us whatever we have influenced right people that we've won, to Christ and impacts we've made in the world where, where we're able, Jesus is able to say to us, you see this whole crowd of people over here, these people who wouldn't have made it into heaven without without your obedience. Yeah, thank you for what you did, because your life made a difference. Look, look at what happened as a result of how you lived. Wow. Yeah. So I think first it's, it's the recognition Jesus will give us an atta boy, a well done atta girl, you, you've done good. I'm so proud of you. Look, look at your inheritance, right? It's not like just cash money or a bigger mansion, like, I think sometimes we've perverted what this moment of reward will look like into earthly it's almost like we've taken the prosperity concepts of Earth and put it into heaven, right? Okay, so I don't think so. Here's the second one and that. So the first one is, we would say, is recognition from Jesus. The second one is responsibility. So this is one of the things that we talked about when we had our heaven and hell episodes couple years ago, Dave, is that people misunderstand heaven as sort of a blah, boring place where you sit on a cloud with a harp and a really bad outfit. Yeah, right, and you're just there worshiping and there's nothing else going on. Well, the new heavens and the new earth will be much like the current heavens and current Earth, but just better, indestructible. And we'll be in a resurrected body, but we'll still be working and building things and creating things, and designing things and overseeing things. And one of the things that we see in the parable of the talents and the minus, the the stories that Jesus tells in the one, I think it's in the Luke, the book of Luke, where he's talking about the peril parable of the minus, minus, meaning this, this um component of money that he gave to these 325, stewards. Matthew, 25 is the talents. There's one in Luke that is similar. Got it anyway, when he says, you know, you've been faithful in a little things now, so you multiplied your five to 10. And then the response is, now take charge of 10 cities. So part of the reward will be that you're you're considered trustworthy in heaven, and that God can give you more weight and responsibility to carry because you've earned the right for that in the way that you lived here on this earth, like if you've been faithful with small things, you'll be entrusted with much. Well, that's true here on Earth, right? Like God will give you more. It's actually interesting in these, in these parables, Dave, that he actually says about the person who wasted their their talent or minor, take from that one and give it to the one that has 10, which seems, seems unjust, but really it's more a matter of trust, like this guy is going to handle. I think

Dave Leake: 29:14

it seems just, it just seems cold, it seems okay. There you go. So,

Jeff Leake: 29:19

so I think part of what we get in heaven is we get responsibility. We get that sounds almost like a curse, like I don't want responsibility heaven. I'm going to be up there to party, but no, you will, you actually will want to be recognized, and you will want to have something of value that you're doing for all of eternity. And there's, there's something with that that is, that is really powerful. So I think, I think that's another one of those things. So we get recognized, we get we get more responsibility when we get to heaven. That's, that's another one of these pieces. I think there's also riches. You know, Jesus actually teaches this principle. And when I was asked this question about, you know, isn't this prosperity teaching? If you look at Matthew. Chapter six, verse 19, it says, Don't store up for yourselves. Treasures on earth, yeah, right, where moths and vermin destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but, But store up for yourselves. Treasures in heaven. So there's something about of of some kind of treasure, right, something of value that some kind of riches that you will have doesn't necessarily mean a bigger house or a bigger whatever it

Dave Leake: 30:22

might it could. You know, Matthew 1929 where it says, and everyone who has left houses is one of them, just talking about house, houses, brothers, sisters, Father, mothers or children or fields, which is also possession for my sake, will receive 100 times as much and will receive will inherit eternal life. So Matthew 2919 29 says, yeah, so there, there does, so you

Jeff Leake: 30:45

get to heaven, and Jesus says, You have done so good. You get your own country, right, right?

Dave Leake: 30:51

Like, yeah, country sounds like a lot, but because 10 cities is what, like the top one did, but country, maybe some people or, yeah, who knows? But, it

Jeff Leake: 31:00

does give you this feeling like whatever happens here on earth seals you in eternity with that, yes, like there is upward mobility here, but once you get there, I don't know if it's that limiting. Yeah, are you able then to say, well, now for the rest of eternity, I'm going to do better. But it does seem to indicate like it is appointed for a person once to live and die and then to face judgment. Like it almost gives you this feeling that what you do here is what you're going to have from is what you're going to have. I

Dave Leake: 31:37

mean, indicates that a lot. Yeah, it's almost

Jeff Leake: 31:39

like, it's almost like, once you have spent a life building this kind of character, whether that be good, reliable character, or really poor and lazy character, you're sort of, you're sort of that, right. You might be saved, you're saved, but you're sort of that and and now you're going to move into your permanent, eternal, eternal, millions and millions of years of life, and you're gonna be sealed in that condition.

Dave Leake: 32:08

CS Lewis's great divorce has a really good picture of those things. Yeah, it does. Also of hell too. Yeah, it does. It's this guy who gets on this tour bus and gets to go tour Hell, where people are existing in a permanent, miserable state, amplified like the way they were in life, that they were bitter in life. Now they're way more bitter if they were greedy or, you know, they always were a victim, or they're always complaining, whatever it is. Now that's, that's one of my favorite books, and then in heaven, it's like the best version, like you become even more of more robust,

Jeff Leake: 32:39

more alive, more filled with happiness and joy, there's just Yeah. So I don't know how this works. It's hard for me to get my head around this, that somehow formation is now, and in heaven, it's that formation piece is over.

Dave Leake: 32:58

You solidified, crystallize into what you were becoming, and then God gives you things. I also that means, like, do you get, like, superpowers that are different if you You're stronger than, like, Mario Kart you've collected? Yeah, you're a better you're a better athlete now you're better looking. Well, I mean, I know everybody's had people

Jeff Leake: 33:18

like, Well, look, you're in heaven. Does it really matter? But definitely does, but it but if you think, yeah, okay, so we could say that like you live in America, does it really matter? Like it's the wealthiest country that ever existed? Does it really matter? But it does matter, yeah, and so yes, thank god we'll be in heaven. Thank God we will have escaped hell. But you know the picture that Paul gives of what you've done with your life to watch it burn. Can you think about that moment like and you look back and you say, all those years that I spent and it meant, and that's, it's just smoke now, I think that's,

Dave Leake: 33:57

it's also going to be embarrassing. I think that's one of the things that I always felt. And maybe that's not even, I think it is the right emotion, though, where it's like Be careful, you know how you live, or where Jesus says you'll be judged by every word that comes out of your mouth, or judged on every little thing. So I do think so. Let's

Jeff Leake: 34:15

recap you so you get, you get a recognition right from the what you've done, and you get you get responsibility, and you get riches. I'm alliterating now, and I'm doing this without the powers of chat GPT, just for the record. And then you get less regret. That would be the last art like you have no regret. Like, can you imagine entering in heaven and you say, I have no regrets for the how I lived? Like I wasn't asked to be burned at the stake, but I did. I did raise five children, and I and I took every opportunity that I had to share Christ with people, and I was faithful with the resources I was given, like and I don't, and with the with the opportunities and talents I had, I used to. I used every moment well, and I don't have regret. I'm sure most of us will be a mix, like, we'll see some wood, hay and stubble, and be like, oh, man, that was that decade wasn't good, you know what I mean. And

Dave Leake: 35:12

here's the other thing too. What I would say is, like, the this is so if we've lost some things from American Christianity, and I'm not talking about like in the negative way, say American Christianity. I'm talking about even the best parts. If we've lost some things, maybe it's living with a awareness of heaven, heavenly rewards, spiritual realities. But I also think we're living without that countdown of, I don't even know how long I'll have, yeah,

Jeff Leake: 35:44

because, like, wake up every day realizing today could be your last if

Dave Leake: 35:47

we Yeah, but if we have the entirety of our lives, whether or not that is 80 years, or it's 50 years, or how we have the entirety of our lives, and we know, like, Oh, he's not coming for five generations, then like, you sort of have this illusion of, I have time. But if he could come, if he could come tomorrow, like today, really matters. You know what I'm saying? Sure, I think it really matters anyway. But I remember when we were at grandpa's memorial service, and what his name, Mr. Apple. Apple North Heath? Yeah, he was talking about how he was putting on a kids summer VBS camp, and it was given a really hard time. And he was on a stage, I guess, at Monroeville assembly, and he was saying to grandpa, like, Man, I'm just so stressed out. Like, I hope Jesus comes back soon. And grandpa was like, I expect him by lunchtime. Say that a lot. My dad, yeah, that that's gone now, yeah, but that's that feels like a cool thing, like to me,

Jeff Leake: 36:47

or or in the early church, because they were going through such suffering. So I actually think one of the reasons why we lack this awareness is because we are in such an affluent society. So in the early church, where they were. They were suffering. They were losing jobs. They were being kicked out of families. They were be threatened with, with martyrdom, with death, because they were following Christ, they would say to each other on a regular basis, Maranatha, like that was their greeting, which means, Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus, like it was the hope. Like Man, they were, how are you? Oh, man, it's been really tough. Like, we just, we have, we've, we've been, we've been trying to scrape by. I lost my job because I'm a follower of Jesus. And did you hear just the town over that the pastor there was killed and and they say, Yeah, I know. But stay strong. Man marrying out that Jesus is coming soon. Like, for those who are in this world and are suffering. The Return of Jesus is something that they long for. For those who are in this world and are not suffering, but are sort of like living in opulence and affluence, the return of Jesus is like, Well, I hope he doesn't come back too soon, right? Because I got stuff going on here, so it's possible. I mean, isn't it true the story Jesus tells about the rich man and Lazarus, that the rich man enjoyed the rewards here, and Lazarus will get them later, right? So there is a certain degree that life of ease and an absolute

Dave Leake: 38:15

quickly, but it's a parable. Jesus tells, right parable? Right? Where there's, there's a poor, leprous man that was begging, yeah, he was begging at the rich man's table. Was always rejected, and the rich man ends up in hell, and Lazarus ends up in heaven. And what did she just say again? He said.

Jeff Leake: 38:33

He said, So Lazarus, well, he had nothing in this life, enjoys the pleasures of heaven in the next, and you had everything in your earthly life, and now are without now, it's not that poor people go to heaven and rich people don't. Jesus was more just contrasting how we think about eternity. That's one of, one of the intense stories that Jesus ever tells about heaven and hell, that one Lazarus and the rich man, if you want to look it up, yeah. But okay, so I actually asked chat GPT a question. Oh, there you go. So here was the question that I asked. Why do people believe in God's judgment anymore? That was my question, and they gave me seven answers. Anything good? Huh? Any of them good? Okay, so the first one is a cultural shift towards tolerance and individualism, true. Modern Culture values personal freedom and self expression, often resisting the idea that anyone, even God, has the right to judge

Dave Leake: 39:31

true, good. Okay, agreed. Chat. Thank you. A

Jeff Leake: 39:34

distorted view of God's character. Many people emphasize God's love to the exclusion of His Holiness, justice and wrath, true. While God's love is real and Central, Scripture portrays his love and justice as inseparable. God wouldn't judge me, quote, unquote, has become a comforting but unbiblical mantra, true, okay? Number three, the lack of teaching on the topic. Some churches avoid preaching on sin, hell and judgment out of fear of offending people or losing a 10. Attendance. As a result, many believers grow up with a shallow or incomplete theology unaware of the seriousness of sin or the coming judgment. Chat GPT is hitting it on the head and some butt right. Number four, misunderstanding grace. The message of grace can be misinterpreted as a license to sin or an excuse to ignore God's standards. True, Grace does not eliminate judgment. It provides a way through to Jesus to be saved from it. Preach. Number five, the influence of secular worldviews, naturalism, humanism, post modernism definitely have led people to reject the supernatural, including the idea of a divine accountability. Live Your Truth has replaced submit to God's truth. Wow,

Dave Leake: 40:40

wow. This is good. Just let this thing do a podcast. Number

Jeff Leake: 40:44

six, discomfort with eternal consequences. The idea of hell or eternal separation from God is emotionally difficult, so people prefer to believe it isn't real. By the way, I do think that's one of the things. Even with the judgment for a reward, we don't like to think about it. It's like, I know I have a test coming up and I should study, but it's really causing me to feel pressure, so I'm gonna do something else and try to distract myself. Which is, which is really dangerous, actually, not necessarily, for your upcoming test. Well, both, but, yeah, it can be right, the Terrible idea for a test. Okay, the final point according to chat GPT number seven, harden hearts or willful ignorance. Wow. Some people don't want to be accountable, so they deny, ignore, or ignore the idea of judgment. So which, which one do you want to cook on from those that we didn't hit? I'll let you pick. Since you were listening to them and I was reading them, well, I didn't write them down. You gotta Yeah, okay, so I'll quickly cultural shift towards tolerance and individualism, a distorted view of God's character, lack of teaching on the topic, misunderstanding grace, influence of secular worldview, discomfort with eternal consequences, or hardened heart. Let's

Dave Leake: 41:53

do discomfort with eternal consequences. Okay, yeah, I think a lot of the other ones we've kind of, and we probably have hit all of those, at least notes of all of those already on this so

Jeff Leake: 42:04

here's the part I didn't read. Some adopt universalism, everyone is saved or annihilation, no eternal punishment as alternatives. So annihilationism

Dave Leake: 42:15

is that, rather than eternal suffering, people are just obliterated, are destroyed. And there are some scriptures that make it seem like that could be the case, which would be a much more pleasant ending. But there are many that don't make it seem like that. Yeah, and we're

Jeff Leake: 42:33

not even really talking about the hell part. We're talking about the we're talking now to Christians who will go to heaven and be empty handed,

Dave Leake: 42:41

which also, I think I still so let's, let's talk about why that's uncomfortable. Yeah, I think, I mean, we've talked a lot about, we had a whole podcast called, has Christianity gone soft, right? I think it has. Basically, I think my, I don't know what my answer was in that podcast, but yes, I do think it has, and I think that the hard things okay, because I think, I think when I when you think of hard Christianity as opposed to soft, to me, there's a way to over play into suffering, to where it's like the goal is suffering, and it almost makes it a distorted version of Christianity in a wrong way, like we call that. What are the poverty gospel? You know, it's not suffering as a part of life. It's the goal to be something like that. But I do, I think there's something man, there's something refreshing. There's something needed about the sobriety of the fact that Jesus could come back at any time, and that he is going to judge you, and that we're going to be judged for good and bad. Like we're not just like, Well, yeah, but thankfully, grace covers all that, so I don't even have to worry about this stuff. Like, someday I'm gonna have to stand before God, which I guess I'm looking forward to. But I'm also like, wow, that will be tough for some things to have to talk about every small thing I said or did, or, you know what I mean, although I don't

Jeff Leake: 44:05

know that you're going to be reviewed down to the detail, like, stood up almost naked in front of the whole world, to, well, maybe evaluate every, every aspect of it. At least. I think it will be, I think it will become obvious. I I think, honestly, I'm almost wondering if it's going to be this moment where you stand on a pedestal and the spotlight shines on your head and all, all of everyone who's ever lived you know stares at you and a movie of your life is played. And you know, I don't know that it's going to be that trouble, not public humiliation, no. Right, right? But I think it'll be obvious like, Okay, let me give you a fifth R in my in my concept of rewards, right? So what? What do we say? We said, We said riches was one. We said recognition was one, responsibility is one, and then living with no regrets. Okay, here's another one, and that's relationships. Mm. Yeah. I think one of the ways that we'll know our reward is how many people we brought with us. Sure. So part of my reward is seeing my family in heaven.

Dave Leake: 45:09

Yeah, but you're doing, you're doing the same thing though, that we're talking about, what's that we're talking about? The bad part, what? So that's comfortable. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, though, but

Jeff Leake: 45:18

think about like that. Like, so if you, if you haven't brought anyone, okay, okay, sure, right. So, so, like, rather than it being like, Okay, this is the moment of judgment, I think it's going to be sort of like you're in heaven. And now you look around and you realize, oh, man, I didn't bring anybody. Like, my life will be like such little influence, like, there

Dave Leake: 45:40

will be regret? Like, oh, I could have talked to this person, and I could have, like, you know, almost like your Schindler's List,

Jeff Leake: 45:45

yeah, like the Schindler's List, right, where he saves, what, over 1000 people from being taken into concentration camps. And then after the war is over, he realizes, he looks down and he sees his ring, and he's like, Oh, one more line I could have, if I had just sold this. I could have used to, could have, could have, because remember what we will have just seen. Well, seen, we'll have seen the the Great White Throne moment. And we'll see, you know, Hades open in the in the lake of fire. And we'll all of a sudden have a complete perspective of everything that really mattered, right? And and then we'll look back and we'll look at our life, and we'll think, oh, man, I did not understand what this life was really all about. Yeah, like I've been living like life was just all about me and how much fun I can have. And really it's, it's all about God, and it's about trying to reconnect as many people to him as possible, and I've been living for fun, and really what I what I was supposed to be living for, was something of a greater purpose. Because what matters most to God is people, sure. And there's so many people that I could, oh, I could have I could use my I could use my gifts. I could use that time, all that time I spent playing video games or watching TV or or working

Dave Leake: 46:59

for more money or high on drugs, whatever. Yeah, whatever. So here's,

Jeff Leake: 47:04

here's what can get real heavy if you live so much under that pressure, you can be but this

Dave Leake: 47:08

is the, this is the impulse that pulls it off. That's true. Like I something that I always admire about you. You always talk because I don't think about this nearly as much. And I do mean this, like, because you laughed what I was saying this. But you're always, you always think about, you know, when Jesus said, like A bruised reed He won't break right? Think that's your heart most of the time you've talked about, like, I don't want to put, you know, there's a single mom who's just barely making it. I don't want her to come in and get crushed by this message or this podcast. But you also don't want to not have the proper weight of what actually

Jeff Leake: 47:44

is. Yeah, no, I actually think there were moments when I was growing up, when I was looking at the possibility of the return of Christ, or that I might die soon, or what the reality of hell was, or that it caused genuine fear in me, and some of that, if not correctly handled, could end up in a neurosis, a bad kind of fear, but some of it brought me to repentance. Yeah, it's a holy fear, yeah, some degree and it and it caused me to make decisions about how I wanted to spend the rest of my life. Yeah, that if I hadn't been confronted with those realities, I'm not sure I would have decided to do what I've done. Yeah, and so holy fear, which brings you to a place of repentance, so that you can live a life without regret, is really what

Dave Leake: 48:34

we're after here. Yeah. So what was number six from that? AI like discomfort with eternal consequences. So here's the discomfort that I was talking about. I know it's not everybody you ever know is looking at a reel of your most embarrassing, sinful moments, but you know Jesus says in Matthew 1236, but I tell you that everyone will have to give an account on the day of judgment for every empty word, every word they have spoken. That's not general themes, and it's not people that's I shouldn't have said that to my wife or my kids or my boss, you know, or I shouldn't have said that. Yes, not just two people. I shouldn't have said that behind that person,

Jeff Leake: 49:13

what's being done in secret will be shouted from the housetops like everything gets revealed and exposed.

Dave Leake: 49:18

Yeah, there. I think it is a holy fear kind of a thing to have to have a pause, like, should I say this stuff? Because it's like, we could be like, it's not that big of a deal. I don't even mean it. Those are empty words, but Jesus says, On the Day of Judgment, you'll give an account for every empty word you have spoken.

Jeff Leake: 49:37

So there's a lot more to this moment of judgment than we realize. It was pretty big part of Jesus's theology, huge part, yeah, and, and we like to soft pedal that idea that one day, hey, listen, one day you'll, you'll give an account for that like that almost feels like, like, harsh, just saying, just saying. What Jesus was saying, Yeah, sounds harsh in our culture, because we have become a little bit soft to those realities. But it actually is not unloving to point out to people a reality that is a reality, yeah, is going to happen? Like, it's be more unloving for me as a pastor, not to tell you about that reality. Like, I wouldn't want you to end up, at the end of your life standing before God in judgment and look, look at me sideways, as your pastor, and be like, Why did you tell me this was gonna happen? Yeah? Like, if I had only known, like, okay, it's not going to be totally my responsibility, because you have a Bible, like, you can read it for yourself. However, I think warning people is a part of our role as pastors, right? It's the warning component of pastoral ministry is probably underplayed.

Dave Leake: 50:52

You know, I think you and your generation feels like it's more negative than it feels to my generation. Okay? I actually think there's something attractional and refreshing, partly because

Jeff Leake: 51:03

we got the warning, plus a load of guilt and legalism. Probably yeah so, and part of us is like, I don't want to do that to my kids, yeah, or the people that I lead. But I've actually been watching more and more clips from Pastor Philip. We did Mitchell. Philip Mitchell, man, that guy's, yeah, but on fire. He

Dave Leake: 51:27

says it, and it's so, so, you know, I'm thinking about all this stuff because I'm about to start my own church, and I don't think it's, I don't think it's even, I don't even think it's a turn off to guess. I don't think it's, well, okay, but so I was watching this one, you could say your clip, but I don't think it's a turn off the guest to say, to say, look, you know, like, like, you know, why do this, or why make this sacrifice? Like, yes, there's benefits, but ultimately, it's because one day we're all gonna stand before God and that matters. Yeah, and I don't want anybody to be, you know, gut punched by this, like, God is actually watching. There is more at stake than just lunch after church. There's more at stake than just healthy relationships, than just Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, like, there's, there is a real judgment coming, and we just need to be aware of that. I think the tone matters, saying that in a way of like, let's just be aware of this. It's dill that then you are awful and wicked and you're going to be judged in some way. Okay, wait,

Jeff Leake: 52:28

listen, so I was listening to Philip Mitchell talk. Sure, I saw this little clip, and he was, he was going out. It was like, Look, if you're a Christian and you're messing around with popular culture, and you listen to some of these musicians, you didn't name him, some of these musicians who sing demonic lyrics, basically, I mean, I'm probably not doing this justice right. And he went on, like, you think you're gonna do this is not gonna have effect on you? Like, I mean, he was, he was hammering it. And as he was preaching, a whole row of people got up and left, yeah. And he was like, go ahead and leave. Like, that was his response. And if some of you want to get up and leave, it's okay with me, because he said, I'm not up here preaching to build a crowd. Yeah, I'm up here preaching to tell you the truth. I love it. Wow. He is. I'm telling you his voice right now. It, it, it has, I think it has the right mix. Yes, I, I aspire to that mix. I love what I hear from him. He I think there's a unique anointing on him for it. So, I don't know that anybody can reproduce exactly what he's but his church is blowing up and exploding. It hasn't actually caused people to leave. It's actually caused people to decide, like they're all in, or they're not. Yes, that's, that's what, I think there's a hunger for that. Yeah. I think some people almost would rather come in and be offended and leave, but then think about coming back, yeah, maybe because at least they know it's like, well, that's, that's the, that's the real thing. Yes, I don't know if I want the difference between demeaning somebody or or speaking down to somebody, and then just preaching truth, yes, yeah. And

Dave Leake: 54:07

I think, I think reason I'll frame one more time. The reason we're talking about all this is because there is eternity that's coming. There is a return of Christ, there is a rapture, there is a final judgment there. There are heavenly rewards that we can earn or totally miss out on. We will be judged for all these things, whether good or bad, there

Jeff Leake: 54:27

will be justice. Your life may be justice. Every moment counts, even the moments that are hidden to you that seem like no one's watching and wait,

Dave Leake: 54:35

not every moment counts in the so enjoy life and squeeze the juice out of every moment counts for eternity. Every moment now counts for later, changing

Jeff Leake: 54:44

that diaper in the middle of the night when you want to go to sleep, but you're doing it because you're raising your son or daughter, and you're doing it with a good attitude, and you're worshiping your way through that moment that matters for your eternity,

Dave Leake: 54:56

turning the other cheek, yeah, when you have a antagonist. Boss or somebody, yeah, not biting back. There are so many different things like this also, you know, I'm glad

Jeff Leake: 55:07

for this like so this the side of it is, if you've been living your life well and you've been maybe you've been taken advantage of by somebody, it feels like they're getting away with it, and you're doing your best to be forgiving and to love God and be obedient. It still seems like the scale is tilted towards those that are doing their own thing. There is something incredibly motivating around the fact that one day this evens out, like one day God will avenge this, and if I don't get it all here in this life, that doesn't matter. I'd rather have it then anyway, like I'm gonna have a better resurrection, because I'm choosing this. To me, there's a justice component of it that's really beautiful, yeah. And the more you live well, as unto God, the more you look forward to that moment. Actually, I'm not, I'm not looking, I'm not afraid of either one of these moments. I've actually lived a lot of my life. And one of the great things for me, Dave is, I'll think about being now 61 years old, is that no one can ever take away from me the reward that's in heaven. Yeah. Like, what I have done over these decades can't be diminished. Like, no matter what happens from here, I already have that in the bank. So, like, that's that's good to know. Like, I have a heavenly bank account that I have stuff in that no one ever can doesn't matter what you think of me or what you say about me, no one can ever take away what I have stored up in heaven.

Dave Leake: 56:36

Yeah, that's good. Yeah. I feel like in this conversation, it's just making me think, how do we talk about this more often?

Jeff Leake: 56:45

Come to my series, it's called, there you go. But even it has to become part of our the milieu, right? The vibe, the atmosphere of how we live,

Dave Leake: 56:58

yeah, and how we talk about God, how we talk about, I think the big thing is, it's talking about the why for a long time, the why was too much, because God wants for your best. Yeah, you can get your best now, if you do these things, which is true a lot of the time, complete, but it's totally incomplete, and it's actually skewed the wrong direction from the teachings of Jesus, yes, which are, well, it might, it might suck right now, but that's okay, because it's going to be 100 times better, yeah, to lose your house now than have that mega mansion in the future. I think

Jeff Leake: 57:30

if we lost the affluence of our culture, this message would be instantaneously, instantaneously. It'd be easy. It's the affluence that we swim upstream against. So fighting

Dave Leake: 57:40

against, giving into the affluence culture, maybe is what we're talking about, the softening effect it has on the softening effect that it has on us. But we're charged to pastor in this generation, and you're charged to be a Christian and to live for God in this generation, if you're a listener to this. And so we do what we can with what we have. And I think let's live as people ready and excited to be judged.

Jeff Leake: 58:02

Yeah? You know, no, you're gonna get good grades. You don't fear the report card. No,

Dave Leake: 58:07

make the most of every opportunity. Yeah, absolutely. Any closing thoughts?

Jeff Leake: 58:13

No, I think this was a really good discussion. Hopefully it was helpful.

Dave Leake: 58:16

Hopefully it was helpful. All right. Well, hey, we appreciate you joining us. As always, there are a bunch of ways that you can help us out. You can like and subscribe on YouTube, share this with a friend. You know, you can just click that little up arrow in the square button and share it, Air Drop it, text it, whatever you want to do. You can also leave us a five star review, and if you do that in Apple podcasts, we love your name. We'll give you a shout out. So as always, we appreciate you guys tuning in. We'll see you guys again next time you.