Is Ignoring the Sabbath a Sin… or Just Unhealthy?

Is ignoring the Sabbath actually a sin, or is it just spiritually and emotionally unhealthy? 

In this episode of the Rethink and Revive Podcast, Dave and Jeff unpack what the Bible really says about Sabbath—looking at the 10 Commandments, Jesus’ teachings, New Testament passages, hustle culture, burnout, mental health, and trust in God—and wrestle with why most Christians don’t practice a true day of rest. 

If you’ve ever wondered whether your non-stop schedule is disobedience, distrust, or just modern life, this conversation will challenge how you think about rest, work, faith, and the way you use your time.

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Rethink & Revive is a conversation-driven podcast where pastors Jeff and Dave Leake help believers rethink cultural assumptions and rediscover the life, truth, and power found in Jesus. Each episode explores faith, culture, theology, and spiritual growth through a biblical lens—equipping you with discernment to follow Christ with confidence.

Whether we’re addressing cultural trends, spiritual questions, or everyday challenges of faith, our goal is simple: to help you think deeply, live faithfully, and experience renewal in God’s presence.

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Transcript

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When you think of the 10 Commandments, you think of things like, you know, Thou shalt not murder or commit adultery or you know You shall have no other gods before me. But one of the 10 Commandments is you shall keep the Sabbath holy. And so that brings us to kind of an important question for us today, is ignoring Sabbath a sin. Is the Sabbath flexible? Is it for us, or is it for God or sort of what are the lines here that we need to be aware of? We're going to talk today about whether ignoring Sabbath is a sin and how we can best honor God with our time practices. If you want to hear more, tune in. Hey everybody. Welcome to the rethink and revive podcast. If you're listening in, you hear a new name. This is what was formerly known as the Allison Park leadership podcast, but we are changing our brand. So let me give a little bit of the background of what led us to this name. We six years ago, almost seven. I guess it was November of 2019, me and my dad, Jeff lake, the co host, who I'll just quickly introduce, started this podcast right before covid, and we had planned to make it more of a leadership podcast, but quickly we realized we're not really talking about leadership. In fact, I'm not sure who done a leadership episode in maybe like four years. It feels like it's been a long time. So we have been praying and thinking and, you know, working with with a new name. And so here's what, what rethink and revive is all about. You know, Paul writes that he says, Therefore, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And in the rethink and revive podcast, we aim to take a second look at spiritual and social issues, and often, it's in the process of us rethinking and examining our core beliefs and values and ideas that we're revived, we're transformed. We're raised to new life and made more like Jesus. And so we hope that you will join us in the, you know, learning, growing, process of rethinking, and that the Holy Spirit will do the rest and revive us together as we have these discussions. So that's that's our that's our new deal. Dad. Do you have any thoughts? Yeah, so we've been talking about this for quite some time. Maybe we need to rebrand, because we haven't really been doing leadership stuff for a while, but it's always tough whenever you think about a rebrand, because people know you under a certain name, and so it takes a little bit of while to migrate. But if you're been part of our audience so far, we appreciate your listenership and your feedback, and it'll take us a little while to get used to the you name new name. You probably will too. But yeah, so I think we're rethinking social issues. We're really thinking church issues. We're rethinking political issues, sometimes personal issues, and as we think about them biblically and pastorally, we hope that that has a way to revive us as individuals and us collectively as a church movement. And so, yeah, we're excited to start a brand new year. We are. And part of part of the Rethinking process is that I am now physically located just south of Jacksonville, Florida, as opposed to in the same room. You may notice some some delays in when we release these for a little bit, or some kinks we have to work out. We're still figuring out some of the technical difficulties, especially on my end, because I have kind of a mobile setup in my own living room. You can't probably tell too much, but this is literally my living room here. So we're excited for a brand new journey. So again, welcome to the very first episode of the rethink and revive Podcast. Today, we're going to have a conversation again about something that I think is still so we were having this just before we started broadcasting here. But, you know, is Sabbath still like a trending topic or not? I guess we don't always pick things that are trending necessarily, but I think it's, I think it is still something people are struggling with and thinking through. Here's the question, though, that I wanted to ask that we can discuss today, and that's is ignoring Sabbath a sin. So when we talk about Sabbath, we're talking about having one day set apart, you know, for God to rest and to be in God's presence. And we rest the same way we see the pattern of, you know, in Genesis, one of God working for six days and resting on the seventh. And you know, this is a biblical precedent. In fact, actually, it's listed among the 10 Commandments, you know, you show on to the Sabbath and keep it holy. But in our culture today, Sabbath, I think, is something that people struggle to do, to take an actual full break away from the workplace, like not to touch anything. You know. I think for me, what I was guilty of for a long time is I would my Sabbath. Was a way to get work done at home, it's like you got six days for or whatever I would have two half days, or whatever it would be, but you got six days for, like, you know, whatever your profession is. For me, that's ministry. And then the other day, it's like errands and housework and laundry and, you know, whatever else there is to do. And that probably wasn't a very restful way to honor the Sabbath. But so the question though, that I have to say, we've had other episodes in the past of like, what does it mean to Sabbath, and how do we do this? And we can get back into some of those things, but as Sabbath is in the same list of commandments, like, Don't murder, or, you know, do not commit adultery, would be another classic one. Right is breaking a Sabbath pattern a sin in the same way. That's my question. Okay, so let me ask why? Why are you asking that question in particular? Because we have talked about Sabbath practices, and we've talked about why this is healthy for you, and when you ignore it, it has consequences to you. But I think you and I fit into this conversation a lot. Dave, where we asked the question, you'll, you'll bring it up as, is it a sin? And I'll, and I'll often push back as, why is that an important question? So why do you why is it important to you to know whether it's sin or not, if Sabbath is flexible, and if Sabbath is something that is God honoring, but you know, is more about keeping me healthy, then I can use Sabbath to my advantage. But if Sabbath is a requirement that is a black and white sin or not sin issue. Then whenever I don't keep the Sabbath holy, then I'm sinning against God. So it just good changes the nature. So basically, adultery is not flexible. It's not right. Yeah, adultery is not based on murder. No, murder is not flexible. Coveting is not like, well, you know, most of the time I don't covet, but, you know, sometimes I do kind of a thing, or idolatry. You can't just choose idols one day and then choose God other days. I mean, that's just not, there's not flex in, in the other nine, you know, so is Sabbath a sin? Okay? That's or not. Is Sabbath a sin? You understand I'm saying is breaking the Sabbath of sin. Yeah. So I think the reason why we get some degree of flexibility with this particular concept has to do with the fact that, okay, let's just be honest. First of all, how many, what percentage of people, not not pastors? Because I realized pastors, this has become a theme in the church world, amongst leaders, that this is something, that if you want to stay healthy and you want to have longevity, that you need to practice Sabbath. But let's just say, people that attend church on a on a regular basis, they're consistent church attenders. They're declared followers of Jesus. What percentage of people in the church, in a church like Allison park, or eventually salt church that you're going to plant in Jacksonville. What percentage of people are sabbathing Like every Bible talks, huh? Every week? Yeah. Oh. I mean, I have no data for this. I would guess 25% okay, that's generous, yeah, I would probably say it's way less than that. Probably, yeah. So, so we're addressing something that is a widespread set. There is a widespread sense of flexibility on this particular issue. I mean, if I asked you the question, what percentage of Allison Park churches or salt churchers are committing adultery, I would hope that percentage would be way less than that, right? So like we're talking about the other 10 Commandments, obviously the other ones are not going to have this rate of, dare we say disobedience, if we're calling it a sin. So obviously the church world sees this as a flexible one. Is that not true? Well, that's what I'm That's what I'm asking. Okay, so I have studied this a decent amount since I was wondering this on question, like this question myself, so I have thoughts but, but, like you sort of posed what I think really is the problem. So let's say, let's say generously, then maybe 25% is too high. If 20% of people keep regular Sabbath, then that would mean 80% of people, if this is a sin, are living in sin. I'm not saying that we have to take that stance. But I'm saying I do think it's important, especially because it's listed among the 10 Commandments. So yes, I think there is a sense of flexibility. The reason why there is flexibility on this one is because this is the one that Jesus teaches about and repurposes, right? So Jesus is. His disciples are accused of breaking Sabbath because they were picking grain off of wheat stalks and they were munching on it as they were walking through on a Sabbath day, and the people around them criticized them for farming basically on the Sabbath. And Jesus then says the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, and the Son of Man is even Lord of the Sabbath. So what it appears that happens, this also happens with various aspects of the hygienic laws in the Old Testament, is that Jesus re restates them and redefines them. Mark chapter seven, he talks about foods that you that you take into your body, can't make you unclean. And basically he, he liberates us from kosher law, right? So, in a similar way, so Jesus is restating the approach to Sabbath, which is that we're not supposed to serve it. It's supposed to serve us if I'm if I'm understanding Jesus's teachings there. So I think that's why, when we look at Sabbath, we don't look at it in the same way that the first covenant folks used to look at it. And so So Jesus, he doesn't reinterpret any of the other of the 10, but he does reinterpret this one for us. So from my perspective, I will, I have always looked at it as this is not meant for me to serve it. It's meant for it to serve me so that I can live according to God's best pattern for life. So am I reading that wrong? I mean, if you will have another take on that. What? What's your No? No. Okay, so, so let's just have a broader conversation than about it. Because I, I don't think my take is going to be entirely dissimilar from yours, but let's, let's expand it for a minute here. Okay, so the question I was asking from this like, yes, Jesus says, So I'm reading here from Matthew 12, where he says, you know, where is it? Matt is 12, seven. If you had known what this means, I desire, I desire mercy and not sacrifice, you would not condemn the innocent and talking to the Pharisees for the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. So of the other nine Commandments, Jesus directly reaffirms all other nine in the New Testament. In fact, actually, a lot of them. He actually amplifies. So for adultery, it's not just the act of having sex with somebody that's not your wife. He says, If you even lust after somebody with your eyes who's not your wife, then you've committed adultery in your heart. Or if you you know, say you hate your brother and your heart, you've committed murder in your heart. So he amplifies, right? He amplifies like the the requirements, because he says these things aren't just issues of actions. They're issues of the heart. And what, what comes out of the heart? You know, it's not what? In fact, another example of him redefining a law with is with the Pharisees, you know, where his disciples aren't washing their hands. And he says, it's not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but it's what comes out of a man. And then it says, By this, he declared all foods clean. And we see that. Then, you know, repeated again in Acts, I think it's acts 10, with Peter. Peter 15, you're right, yeah, so Mark seven and acts 15, yeah, that's, so that's, so that's, that's the position I just stated. You stated, restated it very well. Okay, so let's, let's, let's, let's play devil's advocate for a second. Though, do you think that you just ever directly? Okay, let me say this as a Jew. Do you think Jesus practiced Sabbath? Of course he did. Of course he did not in the Pharisaical so Pharisees, I know they get a bad reputation of being like the evil bad guys in the New Testament, but they're really not. They're more they're more adherent to God's laws than any other sect in Judaism. Was they were just taking everything very seriously. And oftentimes when they debated Jesus, they were, they were not so much questioning his authority as they were asking him to give his rabbinical take on the meaning of things, right? So, so he was raised in a Pharisee culture around the Galilean area. Probably came from a family that was very influenced by Pharisaical thinking, not hypocritical thinking that's different from Pharisaical, right? Because the Pharisees were this very devout religious tribe, so certainly at sundown on Friday, Jesus would have power down like the rest of the culture. I know this because I've been in Jerusalem in the last five years. And if you're in Jerusalem and sundown on Friday happens, the whole city shuts down. So, like, I practiced Sabbath in Jerusalem when I was there because there was no other option. Like, they shut down elevators, they shut down electrical equipment. You're not allowed to do anything that would be like, there was no place to go and shop, no restaurants were open, like the whole. Culture was was unplugged. So certainly Jesus practiced Sabbath, because I'm sure his whole world it was a universally practiced in Israel day where nothing else happened. You were limited in how far you could walk, in what kind of work you could do and not do. So much so that they had created tons of traditions to make sure that they didn't break the law, the Sabbath law, right? So certainly Jesus practiced it, because the entire culture was powered down and so but what Jesus was arguing against, I think, was less the need to practice this day of rest unto God every week. It was probably more the traditions that had grown up around it, which were not biblical. They were just extra traditions, like they were rule upon rule upon rule to make sure that you didn't violate what that commandment was. So certainly practiced it, okay, so we practiced it, which I agree with. Think that Jesus is a model for what we're supposed to be, but, but let's, let's go further. Okay, so the laws that we're talking about that the Pharisees were following religiously, that Jesus many times will, you know, fulfill a law, or, you know, he declares all foods clean as the example we just stated. We're talking about, what comes from the laws that were given to Moses in Exodus, you know, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, right? That then this is the, the covenant that the people of Israel enter, enter into to be, you know, the people of God, and He will be their God, right? But what I would, what I would ask is, though, is Sabbath from the law, because it seems as if Sabbath actually predates the law. Yeah? Sure, it does look as mentioned in Genesis, one and two, right? Yeah, right. Six days he created the universe. One day he rested so and whereas Jesus, in these other senses, is kind of coming to fulfill the law and flip it over, like, even from the very beginning, before the law was given. This was a pattern of the world that God demonstrated. So, yeah, I mean, like, you know, I think often what also adds to confusion is when we're talking about categorizing the different kinds of laws that Jesus refers to, we refer to, you know several kinds? There's ceremonial laws, which were like ritual purity, kinds of things, you know, take two doves and sacrifice them on the altar. Or then you have so ceremonial civil which is, here's what you do if your ox loses its mind and starts destroying property. You know, that would be an example of that, like traffic laws, lawsuits, and then civil, ceremonial and moral. There we go. More. That's the important one, right? Yeah, which is of right and wrong, sin and holiness and all this. And the fact treat God how we treat one another, the fact that Sabbath is grouped into a category of laws where all other nine of them would seem to be to be moral. I think also adds to the rest of this. In addition, it doesn't ever seem like Jesus really like what he says is essentially the way you're treating Sabbath is crazy, like, of course, we can pick grain to eat on the Sabbath like it's there to serve us. Of course, we can do good if any of your donkeys fell into a well when you help your it's lawful to do good on the Sabbath, but he doesn't ever really say, I've abolished the Sabbath or the Sabbath is gone. You know? So like when theologians talk about this one of the again, just to remind everybody why this is probably important, because we're going down a deep rabbit hole here. I think the question is, Sabbath a sin, is important to to be able to have a firm answer on because if it is a sin, we should be practicing it regularly, faithfully. Hebrews four talks about Sabbath rest, and it says, Let's see this, where I want to start here verse. So this Hebrews four, four for somewhere, he has spoken about the seventh day in this way. And on the seventh day, God rested from all his works. Again, in this passage, he says they will never enter my rest. It's talking about those that have rebelled against God. Therefore, since it remains for some to enter, it, and those who formerly received the Good News did not enter because of his obedience, he again specifies a certain day today. He specified this through David after such a long time today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, for if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day, therefore a Sabbath rest remains for God's people, for the person who has entered his rest has rested from His own works, just as God, just as God did from his so sometimes I've heard theologians talk about the idea that when Jesus came, that what Hebrews is saying, essentially, is that we have entered. Into a permanent kind of Sabbath rest because of what Jesus did like by being a part of the covenant. What does that mean? A permanent Sabbath rest? What does that meaning mean? Isn't that talking about salvation works like, yeah, resting from our efforts to try to make ourselves right with God. Yes, and we're receiving in Christ the ability to have by faith that which we could never gain by working religiously. Sorry, that's a much better explanation. So people would say that because, like Sabbath, its primary function from a moral sense or from a law sense, was as a picture of what Jesus was going to do. And when he came as Lord of the Sabbath, he sort of put his stamp. And it's like this picture is now fulfilled, and you can live in the rest from the works that you were striving for all the time, every day. It's no longer a day set aside, but it's now your the state of your being with Jesus, right? You live in a rest with him, right? Exactly, yeah, which would nullify the need to take it as a day. Yeah? You know the other thing, okay, the other thing that I've been thinking about a lot with this is, if Sabbath was still a moral law where it's an issue of sin, then Sabbath isn't as flexible as I take a Sabbath when I like, I just pick a day of the week. Like, Sabbath is actually a day. So like, for the Jews, it was, it was Friday evening until Saturday evening. It wasn't like, well, if I have to work on Friday evening, then like, I'm going to change the day. So now it's like Thursday evening to Friday evening, it was like a very specific day of the week. And there's, I think there's obviously natural reasons as to why. Now, if you take, if you take that far enough, you end up in the category of what Seventh Day Adventist teaches, right? Which is a whole denomination built around the idea that the Church celebrates where its worship experiences on the wrong day that were that so Seventh Day Adventist would say the only way that you could keep the law of God properly and not be in sin is to keep the first covenant practice of Friday night into Saturday night, and to have your worship service on Saturday rather than on Sunday. And they would actually say that there is that Christians who meet on Sunday morning are in violation of the commandments and therefore in sin. And I don't think that's what you're saying. No, right. Okay, so ultimately, church started a meeting on the first day of the week because that was the day of the resurrection, right? So they met to celebrate the resurrection, and they lost their adherence in some ways, to first covenant practices like Sabbath, right? Okay, that doesn't mean but even in the Christian community, apart from Seventh Day Adventist, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, none of the New Testament, you know, models for us seems to have strictly adhered to Sabbath, just like they let go of things like circumcision, sure. So the culture of Sabbath wasn't as strongly enforced as a as a group, than than it was for the first covenant the Jewish people, right, which they still practice Sabbath to this day, especially if you're orthodox. Jew, actually, so, but I grew up in the United States, David, we probably talked about this in former episodes, when the whole culture did enforce a Sabbath, but it was more like Saturday night into Sunday night, because most people were Christians, and there were blue laws and everything was closed. So it was much easier to Sabbath when I was growing up, because rest it was the whole world was Chick fil A, right, right. Okay, so, but everybody was closed on Sunday. You couldn't go out to eat, you couldn't go to the mall. There were no baseball games. Like, okay, there were, there were baseball games. You could go to a baseball game, but like, little colleagues didn't play games. Everybody canceled everything on Sunday so that there was space for worship, and so that there was, you know, everybody had that day off no matter what. And then when the blue laws got canceled in our culture, we became more of a seven day a week activity culture, not that everybody works seven days a week, but everybody stays active seven days a week, which means that as a Christian, if you have a job that makes you work over the weekend and you're trying to Sabbath, you do have to pick another day of the week, because that Friday into Saturday or Saturday into Sunday is not culturally reinforced, sure, and it's and it's not taught that way in the New Testament, like You have to keep the Sabbath on Friday like we don't ever get a Paul writing in the epistles, or John or James or Simon Peter in one of their letters, or even Jesus in the gospels. It was his practice as a first covenant Jewish person, right? Because he came came up under that but he never. Teaches it as a practice, and even New Testament Christians are meeting on the first day of the week. Yeah, right. So it's hard to take it and become a rigid get a rigid philosophy out of it, simply because it doesn't appear that it grew out of the New Testament era that way. Sure. Now even so, let me back up that opinion now more, because I'll I have another question. We can spin this towards after this so, but I mean it even kind of directly states some of this. Colossians, 216 says, Therefore, don't let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink, or in the matter, matter of a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day, these are a shadow of what was to come. The substance is Christ. Let no one condemn you by delighting and esthetic practices and the worship of angels claiming access to visionary realms. Such people are inflated by empty notions of their own spiritual mind, etc. But the idea there, like it says, regard to food or drink, the matter of a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day. These are all like Jewish religious practices and rituals. And what Paul is writing here in Colossians, essentially, is these are things. It says, These are a shadow what was to come. The substance is Christ. These things were pictures that Jesus came to fulfill and so no longer are they a part of the new covenant. They're sort of Old Covenant practices. Okay, that's good. And Romans 14 says something similar. I'll just quickly read it, and it says one person verse five. Romans 14 esteems one day better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains abstains in honor of the Lord because He gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. If we live, we live for the Lord, same kind of an idea. So it does seem these verses, along with Jesus teaching, does seem to reinforce the idea that the way we practice Sabbath is flexible. Now it may not be flexible that we take a Sabbath, because I think Dave this, this principle of Sabbath is very similar to the teaching on tithing. This is where I was going next, yeah, because Sabbath predates the law, tithing predates the law, okay? When we say predates the law, the law was given by Moses, right? That's when the 10 Commandments show up. But there was a lot of activity happening before Moses Abraham shows up, way before Moses and Abraham tithes in a moment in his life, and the Sabbath shows up way before Moses, because it's mentioned for us in the early parts of Genesis. And so most of the time when we talk about tithing, there's a lot of people who say, Well, I don't tithe because it's a new we're in the New Testament. Now the Old Testament, this is a first covenant principle, but my answer to that is always tithing was sort of like, okay, now, in the New Testament, God is not asking for 10% of our income. He's asking for 100% right? 100% obedience, right? Yeah. So how would he ask us to give all of our life, and us not even begin with the starting point of giving 10% right? So my thought is the tithe is where we start. It's not where we end. Well, the same thing we could be said with Sabbath. Why would God? Now, God doesn't ask for one day a week from us, yes, for 100% every day, seven days a week. So if he's asking for 100% of our life, and we don't even devote a full 24 hours to him, then then maybe we're not loving God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, sure, right? So the lack of its presence in our life might be a sign that we haven't prioritized him properly, just like the lack of tithing in our life might be a sign that he's not really first in our life, because tithing was always a step that was taken to, say, the first part of my income, the first part of my crops, the first, you know, the first day it was, that's what the Sabbath is. Actually, the first day of the week is every everything I'm doing, I'm giving now the first part to God, the lack of his, if it's presence, probably demonstrates a lack of a priority on God, which, in and of itself, might be a sin. Yes, well might not be a sin because of its we're breaking a commandment. It might be a sin because we're not demonstrating His lordship over our time. I Okay, so, so let's Yeah. I, I think you answered that really well, but let me frame it again so that we can, we can keep going into this from other angles. My original question is, is ignoring Sabbath to sin? We talked about it at first from the perspective of the law as one of the 10 Commandments, but now what you brought up is, is, and I'll say it a different way. We see this as a pattern of creation. Where even God Himself rests, and what Sabbath is meant to be for us is, it's a celebration of the fact that we can trust God. So if we work for six days, we trust that God is faithful to supply enough to provide what we need for the seventh. And it's a it's a constant recognition of our dependence on God, it's a constant celebration of the rest that he meant for us to be in because, you know, we're not meant to perpetually be beings that just work. We're meant to be relational beings that celebrate our relationship with God's Sabbath. Is that. And so my my thought, I think it's very similar to yours, but while Sabbath, while missing Sabbath, or ignoring Sabbath, might not be a sense from sin, from a law sense. I think it is a reflection of a lack of trust for the Lord. You know, it can make an idol out of work, it can make an idol out of money. It can make an idol out of reputation or status. But if we can't consistently slow down for one day a week, and we have to always try to, like, weasel and wriggle and, you know, figure out, like, how do I make this work for me? Then what I would say is, what does that say about the way that you view God? Yeah, and, and it's like an over dependence on self rather than a reliance on God. And here's another first covenant practice. This was actually God gave the recipe agriculturally, six years you sow and reap your fields. The seventh year you let it rest and you just eat what grows naturally, right? And then after seven cycles of that. You take a next an extra year, the 50th year, and you and you celebrate it as a year of Jubilee. And it's designed to be this radical act of faith that for a full year you're going to trust that God's going to cause enough crops to grow without you working the fields, and you're going to take an entire year and devote that to God, and the Bible says in the Old Testament, never one time did the people of Israel let the land rest, even though it was a commandment of God. And because of that, whenever God lets them go into captivity for 70 years, I forget which book of the Bible it is. Some will have to look this up for us, but the number 70 years was the equivalent of the amount of years that they had not obeyed the the command to let the land rest. So obviously, this principle of giving God first of your finances in the first part of your week and every seven days to trust God, even with with the land. Obviously, that God is looking for us to take this radical step, to trust him with the outcomes, rather than depending upon our ability to work, work, work, work, to make it happen. And we as human beings resist this fiercely because it takes faith to to take the step of obedience, right to tithe, to take a Sabbath, to to rest, takes it is the ultimate step of I trust God, not myself. And so the fact that we in our culture are stressed out all the time, and we're working like crazy, and we never stop, and we struggle to do this whole Sabbath thing, and the tithing thing probably is a sign that our hearts are out of whack. So is that sinful? If sin is missing the mark, then certainly it is, but probably like, not like the way that people tend to think of it, like, like, I don't think it's the same kind of sin as is don't commit adultery or don't murder. Sure. It's a different the spirit of this is a different kind of disobedience, whereas one is defiance of a command to pursue your own pleasure or personal gain. This is more like a violation of the spirit of our relationship with God, which is supposed to be one of of reliance and trust. I don't know if that makes sense. I would say, I would say that what like this is a reflection of something else that might be out of whack. Okay, there you won't like it's not that necessarily. The the ignoring of that day is a sin, but refusing to take consistent rest in favor of something else shows something that probably is an issue of sin, or at least of bondage, you know, like it could be fear, for example, if I don't stay at this, like, I'm going to lose my house. And you probably, you're like, well, rationally, I know I'm not going to lose my house, like I have plenty, but it feels like I can't take like, if I get behind the eight ball, it's just all going to snowball. I don't want to slow down. Sure, yeah, I'm like, I like, I really. I live in my life. I want to do something else today. I want to I. Want to, you know, do stuff around my house. I want to, you know, go place my attention and affection on activities that aren't related to my own soul health or to my worship of God or my relationship with him. So I'm going to run, run, run, run, run. And I'm not going to just because I don't like to slow down, sure, and and then we suffer. We get so we are an epidemic of mental health crisis. Yeah, we are a stressed out society. Everybody is trying to find peace, and maybe the answer would be in bringing back this first, first priority on God with the use of our time. It certainly would help if the whole culture slowed down on a day. Sure would. Yeah. Like, if we, if I could live in Jerusalem all year round, where they take Friday night, they power down and everything shut down and be would be way easier if the whole world was Chick fil A, right? So it isn't because it's not reinforced by the culture. It's like, I'm swimming upstream, like I'm swimming against the current to keep this, because the rest of the world is trying to make me go faster. So I have to fight the culture to slow down, because everything is constantly bombarding you, and everybody's saying speed up and go faster and come to this and do that. So for me to actually practice Sabbath, I have to be radically counter culture, and I have to get most of the people around me to go with this, like my wife has to agree, and my family has to agree, and we we have to kind of get in sinking and rhythm, or else will be overtaken by the rest of the world we swept up in the busyness of society. Yeah, and so that's why it's so hard. That's why I think we're also, I'm also hesitant to come down hard on it like you wicked sinner, you're not keeping a Sabbath because, because it is a it takes, it's a fight to get there. It's a fight to keep a Sabbath. I agree. You know, yeah, I think, I think so. Here's, here's how I feel about not Sabbath, but just what you said in general. And it's why I think this kind of topic is important. Sometimes Jesus gives really hard commands, and it's, it's important that we're aware of those, because even if something is hard that doesn't make it not sinful to live a certain way, you know, not cohabitating, staying sexually pure. You know, those kinds of things in our day and culture are not easy things, but they are vital, crucially important, things that aren't, you know, laxened, if that's a word you know, just just because of the difficulty that it takes to follow Jesus with those but I do think with this one, it's nice to see there's flexibility. So the again, we're now the rethink and revive podcast. Talk to me pastorally for a second. So like I think that it's nice to know that this is not maybe an issue of sin to miss or to be flexible. But it's also important on the flip side to understand that if you're not regularly practicing Sabbath, you said probably 80% or more of Allison Park church attenders are probably not living I'm not being critical of Allison Park I'm just saying I'm thinking of people, the people who are in the church world and attend a church like Allison Park, right? Sure, being hyper critical of the people at Allison Park, I'm not recognizing the general cultural trend in Western society is that this is an aspirational goal. Sure, I probably should be doing this, but it's not an actually applicational goal, because people aren't doing it regularly, like maybe they hit a zone where three weeks in a row they did it and then they just dropped off again. And I'm saying that because personally, I have had good seasons, bad seasons with this. So let's you saying, Pastor, let me talk personally first. Personally, I've gone years without practicing Sabbath, yeah, because I was running like crazy. And then I've had years where I've done it really well, and I can say the years I've done it really well have been healthier years I'm more emotionally healthy, I'm more centered, I'm a better husband. I see things a little clearer as a leader I am, and I feel like I'm in a good rhythm. And the years when I'm not practicing it, I feel burned out, I feel stress, I feel sometimes foggy, I feel fatigued. And so I get that, that it's an enormous benefit in my life. Now I have tithed. I've never not tithed since I was six years old. Sure, I have never not tithed. I've always set aside and I've always gone beyond the tithe. I obviously, personally have way more. Problem with my time than with my money. And if you're around me, you know that's true, because some people like, do you ever stop? I was like, You're right. Like I and, and why is that the case? And you pointed out some of its fear. Some of it is drive like, I can I get addicted to results? Sure, sure. Like I like seeing stuff happen and I don't want to stop, because I like doing stuff, and I like accomplishing things, and I got stuff on my list, and I like the dopamine hit that I get from crossing stuff off my task list. And I don't like when my Sabbath hits. And I've got nine things on my task list that I didn't finish last week, that I would like to finish, so I get a head start on next week. So I'm tempted to work when I should be resting because I got stuff to do, and I want to get it done, and I don't want to slow down and so and I probably think more people in the church world tithe than Sabbath, because as much of a problem it is for people, maybe not to have God prioritized in the way that they use their finances. I think in our Western culture, we don't prioritize God in the use of our time. That is way more of a problem, that that is, I think, way more of an epidemic problem. And again, no no stats for that. That's just my personal opinion, yeah, but I think it is way more of a problem. And, and, and so, you know, we are, you know, when you Sabbath, I think it's healthy for your children to see you do it, putting a priority on God. When you Sabbath, it's healthy for your marriage. When you Sabbath, it's healthy for your church. Everybody's participating with worship when we want to see revival happen within our country? Yeah, maybe part of the recipe of that is that we all prioritize God in our time. More like are some of the social problems that we see as a result the fact that God isn't a priority enough in our life. Yeah, I would probably say all of that there has to be download line impacts of disobeying this, this command principle of life, of prioritizing, God, you know, I was going to say this, so again, we've done a lot of the Rethinking. Think, I think the goal of this is that we're transformed as we renew our minds. Renewing your mind is not just thinking different, it's living different. You know, it's, you recalculate the route you're going to take that you live your life by, as you examine them again, and then you change practices. I think that this sounds aspirational, in a sense, the way that diet or exercise or budgeting or something hard but good does. But what I would say is I think that it's very difficult and maybe almost impossible in today's day and age, if you are a family person, if you're a parent and you never, ever Sabbath, I think you're not going to be able to be a healthy parent in the long term, you know, like just so in general, like, if you're If you're a guy and you're working, you're a dad and you work hard, and then that, that sixth day of the week, even if you're off, you're still kind of working. Your mind is not with your family. You're not present. And one of the principles of agriculture that you know we see that Jesus talked about, or not Jesus, I should say God gave the laws where you talked about working the ground for six years, letting it rest for a seventh. There's actually, like scientific principles that show that a soil gets much less fertile when you consistently, year after year, plow until and plant. It's very healthy to let it reset and to let the you know, the minerals kind of come back, and the health of it, like the crops just won't be as healthy if you keep planting like that. I think that a life lived without respect for rest or respect for not even respect what's the right word, trust that God has enough or slowing down enough to be present with your family, slowing down enough to deal with uncomfortable emotions, with with feeling unproductive for a day. You know, there are so many uncomfortable things that Sabbath force us to reckon with. And I think a life lived without Sabbath over time, sometimes it leads to self destruction. Sometimes just leads to just its unhealth and its distance, and you lose touch with yourself, and you feel distant from God, and you feel distant from those that you love, and you know like we have such a culture of productivity, like my worth and my value comes from what I do, comes from what I produce, comes from the money I make and the accomplishments or that I have, or the doctor before my name, whatever it is, you know, I think being unproductive feels sinful in our Western culture, but it's crucial, you know, to have this pattern of life that's going to be healthy. So I think we're face your fears and your insecurities. And, you know, going back to, okay, this the Jewish first covenant. Practices of Sabbath don't just involve God. They involve family, like you mentioned, right? So, being, being, you know, I wish everyone could be in in Jerusalem on a Sabbath, because it's really, it's really interesting. I was sitting outside watching as entire family units, mom, dad, kids, walked to the synagogue for for a service on Friday night and then went home to have some type of Shabbat dinner, and then woke up the next day no electronics, no TV, no music, no Spotify, no video games entire day. Just think about that. Are breaking the phone addictions. Don't scroll, don't watch Netflix. It's quiet, it's dull, it's unproductive. It's just you're going to sit around with people, you're going to eat, you're going to sleep, you're going to take a walk, you're going to and then you're going to power back when the sun goes down, you're going to worship, you're going to reflect, you're going to give yourself space that that is the way that they practiced it. Wow, and they had less electronic interferences in Jesus day. Think about how much we would benefit if we said I will do nothing with electronics for 24 hours. I'm going to power down from the internet and social media and the phone and any and any kind of distractions, and I'm going to go to church, and I'm going to worship, and I'm going to come home and eat with my family. With my family. I'm going to take a nap, maybe we're going to play a game together, and we're going to laugh, we're going to enjoy ourselves, and then when the sun goes down, we're going to resume our life. I actually think that would probably if just think about the elect like a weekly electronics fast. I'm actually preaching to myself now, because the the the addiction to the devices is huge. Sure, that's a huge thing. And that is actually one of the like they had to teach us people. We went to Israel. Hey, listen, when you go to get breakfast tomorrow, there's no coffee maker. Like you just like, there's a way to get coffee, but you got to do it this way, without electronics, because they won't let you turn anything on. Like, you got to take the steps you can't take the elevator because the elevator is turned off on the Sabbath day. Like they have a complete shutdown of anything that would make you hurry or be like normal activities. That's wonderful. Actually sounds really nice, and yeah, like, that'd be a much more peaceful, healthy world to live in. I wonder Dave coming out of this, if we should create some kind of revolutionary document, like as we go into 2026, I am committed to practicing a Sabbath with five or six principles and see how many people would be interested in joining our movement. Let's do it. I will do seriously like you think that would be a very practical thing coming out and say I commit to and you and we get, dare I say, like this a little religious and rigid about it, like because in order for this to happen, you have to have boundaries and limits. Boundaries are the rules that you create that others cannot encroach on, and limits are the boundaries you create for yourself, where we would create some limits for ourselves. I will not on this, on during my 24 hour, not do this, and I will do this, and I'm going to try my best to stay rhythmic with these things. Could we create some kind of a contract, like, let's do it. We'll do it. Not that we're going to not, not enforceable by punishment of some kind, sure, because, you know, like in Nehemiah, when they broke the Sabbath, He like, beat them up. I don't know if you read that passage, like, pulled out their hair or something like that. He's like, What is wrong with you? You can't do this. We're not going to come after you. But I'm wondering if, like, I almost wonder, like, for me, like, Okay, what would be the right thing if we practice this properly, what would be the basic minimums of a good Sabbath practice? And maybe, maybe suggesting something practical, we could see how many people might join with our counterculture revolution to change this because, because just talking about this without an action plan, I'm I'm going to be it's like when my dentist tells me to floss, I know it's not happening. I mean, like, I know I need to floss. I'm never flossing, but if someone gave me an action plan, maybe I would change that, right? So okay, so here's, here's what we'll do. I'll work with producer Matt and. And we will, it might even be you. One of us will record video, and we'll, we'll post it on the rethink and revive social media page, and we'll give challenge, and maybe whoever wants to take this challenge can send us a picture. You can text it, you can email it, you can DM us and challenge 2026. Baby, let's do all right, we'll figure it out. We'll release that video right around the time this podcast comes out. So we got to wrap up here. But just want to say once again, thank you so much for joining us in the newly rebranded rethink and revive podcast. We hope to have you join us a lot more. And Hey again, in this new year, you can really help us out, especially now that we've changed the name, you can help us to spread the word by liking and subscribing on YouTube, by sharing on social media, and especially by leaving a five star review on Apple. Podcast. We'll give you a shout out. We'd love to you know, say thank you. So regardless as to whether this is your very first episode or you've been with us for years. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you again. See you guys again next time you.