AI, Fake Church, and Traps We Can Fall Into

"AI, Fake Church, and Traps We Can Fall Into" dives into how pastors, small group leaders, and everyday Christians are using tools like ChatGPT, and where it quietly crosses the line into counterfeit spirituality, hollow sermons, and “plastic” discipleship. 

Dave Leake and guest Jordan Kolarik unpack the tension between convenience and true spiritual formation, asking if AI is short‑circuiting our time in Scripture, dependence on the Holy Spirit, and the call to be authentic, “analog” disciples in a digital age. 

If you’ve ever wondered whether it’s okay to use AI for devotionals, Bible study, or preaching, this conversation will help you discern the difference between helpful tools and fake church.

👉 Subscribe for weekly conversations on faith and culture

Rethink Revive is a podcast where we carry on Pastor Jeff Leake’s legacy by having honest conversations about faith, leadership, grief, and navigating change in a rapidly shifting world. 

Whether we’re addressing cultural trends, spiritual questions, or everyday challenges of faith, our goal is simple: to help you think deeply, live faithfully, and experience renewal in God’s presence. Formerly known as the Allison Park Leadership Podcast.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Podcast. Today we're talking about AI, artificial intelligence, and how Christians should or shouldn't use it. Is it okay to use it for devotionals? What about writing small group lessons, sermons? Can we do that? Would you attend a church that had AI-generated sermons? Is this the future of the church, and if so, are there any limits to how far we can go and really, how do we become robust disciples and not fake plastic Christians? If you want to find out a little bit more, tune in. Hey

Dave Leake: 0:32

everybody, welcome to the Rethink Revive podcast, where we take a second look at social and spiritual issues. I'm your host, David Leake, and with me is a special guest one of my best friends in the whole wide world, Pastor Jordan Caleric. You want to say hi?

Unknown: 0:47

What's up everybody? Happy to be on here. Dave, say that. Say that tagline again, is that new? I love that. A

Dave Leake: 0:54

second look at social and spiritual issues.

Unknown: 0:57

You're cooking with that. Yeah, happy to be on, bro. So pumped beyond

Dave Leake: 1:02

it's not your first time, you were on, I think, at least twice, but

Unknown: 1:06

it's my first time on the Rethink Revive, and this, it's feeling different. We're separated, you're in Florida, I'm in Pittsburgh, so yeah, but it's gonna be great. It's gonna be great.

Dave Leake: 1:16

Some of you might know Jordan from his infamous growing popularity podcast called Jor Talks Discipleship, yeah, which is like the wild west of discipleship podcasts. That's how I view it. It's awesome. It is. It is. Yeah, when people say, like, energy, that is the all energy all go podcast. Check out George Talks discipleship, it's great. Today we're going to be talking about AI and fake church traps that we can fall into if we're not careful about them. And so, yeah, but before we get into that, I just want to quickly say, thank you. As always, we want to say thank you for being a part of this podcast. If you're a regular listener, and one thing that we do is, if you leave us a five-star review, we will give you a shout out if we can see your name. Currently, that's still only on Apple Podcasts, but so today I want to give a five-star shout out to All Deniz PHG. I wonder if I crush that PGH, but yeah, PhD pro hockey goals, not Pittsburgh PGH. I don't know, Allison is PhD. Thank you for your kind words, kind review. And if you want to get a shout out from me slash maybe Jor, if George on the podcast again, wow, go ahead and give us a five star view. It really helps to kind of get the word out, spread the spread the news about what we're doing. So, let's get into it. This is a light set.

Unknown: 2:49

You said fake church, that's a fairly intense accusation, isn't

Dave Leake: 2:56

it? I'm not accusing any specific church of being fake, no, but I am.

Unknown: 2:59

You're like, you're, yeah, fake church, I mean, if something is fake, that's, that's quite the exit. What do you mean by fake church, and how is it related to AI?

Dave Leake: 3:09

Yeah, well, okay, so let me frame it. Even 2000 years ago, there were churches that we would call fake churches, you know, Second Timothy three, Paul, Paul talks about, here's what he says in verse one, he says, there will be, but mark this, there will be terrible times in the last days, people will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, come on, ungrateful, ungrateful, amen, we believe

Unknown: 3:42

We both have toddlers, so that's it.

Dave Leake: 3:48

Unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of good, treacherous. Wow, this long list, rash, conceded lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. And then verse users

Unknown: 3:59

of AI. Oh, sorry, true.

Dave Leake: 4:02

First five is the famous one, having a form of godliness, but denying its power, and he says have nothing to do with such people. So, there is such a thing that looks like godliness that isn't real godliness. It's got the trappings, it's got the shape, it's got the shiny look to it, but really it's missing the heart. And you know, my point is, like, there's always been counterfeit church. It's not inducing, but, like, how does AI relate? There is now a machine that makes it faster than ever to produce counterfeit church material. And, by the way, for the record, I sent Jordan a podcast sort of outline that I used AI to help me generate, so it's not AI altogether.

Unknown: 4:43

Wait, this is great. So that's actually blasphemous, dude. That's like, okay. So I think we're gonna have to get into then, because it sounded like just from the title that you were feeling like the use of AI produces a fake church. That has a form of godliness, but denies his power, but that's that's not what you're saying,

Dave Leake: 5:04

not what I'm saying.

Unknown: 5:05

Okay, so they can,

Dave Leake: 5:07

but there is, there is a line, I think, like any tool, definitely overreliance can be toxic for something like this.

Unknown: 5:16

Okay, so that's what we're going

Dave Leake: 5:16

to discuss today.

Unknown: 5:17

Can I start with a stat that I heard recently that has been sticking in my head, it's kind of my gotcha that I've been thinking about, but I feel like it'll post it so much. So I think generally this is so.. if you don't know, I'm a pastor at the University of Pittsburgh, so I work with college students. I don't think this is just college students, but I think the general view on AI, like the way you're supposed to talk about AI is negative, like most people are like boo, like, oh, like, yeah, I hate it, like, I don't know if you've seen, there's a ton of clips, like, we're in graduation season, so a lot of colleges or high schools are having commencement speakers, and when they bring up AI, everybody in the audience is like, they're literally booing them, and they're like, hold on, like one lady, she was like, the next industrial revolution is AI. It was like, boo, because I mean, they're about to get their jobs stolen by AI. So, like, generally, I think we're all the ethos around AI is we're supposed to be like, yeah, I don't like it, but what I just saw is that Open AI reported 900 million weekly users last month. Wow, 900 million. So, here's, here's the thing, like everyone probably puts on a front, like, yeah, AI stinks. I can't believe what it's doing. It's so cheap, it's so whatever. But then everyone's everyone's using it, like secretly, like I, my stance is that I stand against, yeah. But then in the background, it's like, AI, can you give me a recipe for, like, so people? So I'm saying that to say we're talking to you like we, we need to have a conversation, and you're not absolved just because your public stance is like, oh yeah, like I net think it's bad, but you're like kind of using it. I think I want to have a conversation to the common man, who you know is like thinking through what are the limits, what are the restrictions, and what is the long term consequence of of AI in general, does that make sense?

Dave Leake: 7:24

Absolutely, yeah. By the way, Open AI is the is the founder of Chat GPT, but that's just one of the big five. There's, there's so many other engines out there, so yeah, it's like I do think the general viewpoint is like boo AI, and it's like, do you use AI well? Only sometimes, just for like, just like,

Unknown: 7:43

no, not very much, yeah, only you're the probably

Dave Leake: 7:46

like, yeah, only for pancake recipes, like, whatever it is, but meanwhile, I actually do think, like, we were talking about someone that sent a group chat text, and you were like, I know this guy said

Unknown: 8:01

my AI door is going off all the time, and it actually drives me crazy, because I hate person. I feel like it is - is it plagiarism? I don't know. Help me, what is it? It's so annoying when people use AI and then try and pawn it off as artificial

Dave Leake: 8:18

content, and you're plagiarizing from artificial content, it's not, it's not original, it's not your, so what? Yeah, we could, we could rant on this and go pet peeve, pet pet peeve pet peeve. Oh, but I have many, but you should rein me in. You should rein, yeah. Let's, let's, let's frame it a little bit, and and we'll get into this. What started this topic for us, you and me, was not just the fact that we live in an AI world, where, like, pretty much everything right now, the biggest cutting-edge topics are all AI-based, but as pastors, we've been watching the intersection of the use of AI in church coming up in different settings, and often it's a crossover between, like, it's not just used for, like, a question, where it's like spiritual content based. Okay, so, so two examples, Jordan, I said, in a pastor's only teaching, and a guy, a guy gave a teaching brand, it was 100% AI generated. I mean, like, I bet he put in the prompt. I'm sure he didn't just have AI come up with the whole thing, but, like, he, the problem was he gave us his outline. I feel a little bad. I should be saying this. I know you gotta say

Unknown: 9:38

this. We know to shame this type of behavior, I am totally, you can be the Christ-like one. I'll be the dirt bag, boo. Like this person, I'm sure, is a great guy. But if you're leading a pastor's meeting and you just put a prompt into AI, and then you print it off, and then you pawn this stuff off like it's yourself, you're a bum. It's like, what do you do? I don't know. That drives me crazy, and to look at it on a piece of paper, and then, like, I'm supposed to pretend like he's the one that came up with this, and we're all like, like, all of us were like, "Brother, this is definitely AI. I don't know, does that not bother you? I feel like it would bother our listeners.

Dave Leake: 10:15

Yeah, it bother, it does bother me. And then, and then we have a mutual acquaintance. I mean, this could be anybody. So, what my goal is. Okay, I want to be very clear with my goal with this. I need to not want to snipe pastors who are doing their best things that I don't want to emulate. So, I'm trying super hard to not be disarming. That's

Unknown: 10:40

Dave's goal, but I would like to just say, if you're a pastor and you're listening and you are using AI, there are people like me that are going to be like, "Boo, because wait, Dave, I think I'm not trying to be rude to pastors, and I understand you're trying to frame it and take us somewhere, but let me just side quest for a second, like, does come down to what is the role of a pastor, and what is the role of a shepherd? And we have, I think, unintentionally, no one tried to do this, but, like, okay, a pastor is someone that preaches good sermons. A sermon, a good sermon is one that has a moment that makes you go "ooh" or "ah" or "oh, that's so well stated. And so now we're kind of clip farming, like even when I'm writing my messages, even not using AI, I'm thinking, like, oh, that's a line, that's a banger, you know, that's going to kind of punch people in the throat. Okay, so then we have to zoom back out and be like, what is a shepherd supposed to do, and is the goal to have the coolest line or statement? If you think that, then AI is totally usable, because it gets you to that place as quick as possible. I just.. I just think I know this isn't even the discussion you want to have, but I think for those of us that are small group leaders, that are disciple makers, that are preachers, or that want to be.. I think there's a temptation to feel like the way I shepherd people the best, or love people, or you're a small group leader, you know, when people meet in your, your room, and it's like, oh, I could have a kind of one liner. I just think there's danger in reducing what a shepherd does to be like, I gotta say, the coolest line too

Dave Leake: 12:13

fast. I am taking it there. We're going there. Good,

Unknown: 12:15

good, good. Take me there.

Dave Leake: 12:17

Let me finish building the frame out. Almost done. So we heard this teaching, we were like, "Oh boy, we have a mutual acquaintance that we saw. This is a pretty common thing for Jordan and me and others, but he'll send me like a screenshot and be like, "Is this AI generated? Like, does did this person genuinely write this material, or was this probably like at least cleaned up by AI? And we'll go back and forth, and I think we landed on the last one that you sent me was probably 90% AI, and it was, it's like, so the issue is like you quote, like you have a quote and you write your name under the quote, and you're like, but that was probably an AI-generated thing, so should you be quoting yourself when you didn't write it, like there are ethical lines that we have to sort of figure out and talk through, and even beyond that, you're talking about the role of a shepherd, so I would say that this goes beyond just pastors, this is going to go into Christians and disciples, but like just starting from the base, both Jordan and I are pastors, so we're thinking from this lens, right, the hollowness that you could have of a church that looks right is sermons that sound biblical, or they may even be biblical that have good lines that are providing the right kind of content, but the question that I have is, is it potentially hollow. I would argue, yes. If you haven't actually allowed the content to transform you first, because it's, you know, man, it's.. it's in Proverbs. I want to say, oh man, I know this, and it slipped in my head, but where it says,'Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Yes, you know, the, the, as pastors, and really as Christians, when we're having spiritual discussions, like, it's not bad to use tools. It's not, I have, you know, Bible software that helps me reference things, you know, like there's tools, even AI can be helpful, but, like, when, when, as pastors, or as Christians, or as churches, we build something with the help of tools that actually shortcut the formation process of having to wrestle through and pray through verses and allowing the content to impact us, and then coming out of the overflow of the life that we have with God. What we're producing is something that looks right, but is missing the flesh and spirit, you know, substance that comes with really deeply walking with the Lord. And so I guess that's what I want to frame this, like I want to talk about the lines, like, where's too far with this, you know, the again, my goal is not how do. Identify fake church. It's all of us have the ability to potentially overuse and over rely on something that instead of just making it convenient, it makes it counterfeit. And so I like, I said this to Jordan, the phrase in my mind is, How do we make analog disciples? You know,

Unknown: 15:19

what do you mean by analog?

Dave Leake: 15:21

So digital clock time is on there on the face. Analog is the little the hands, you know, digital over alliance disciples. The Bible we know is the Bible that Chat GPT tells us. Analog disciples have digested the word, they spend the time with God, they can be confused. Then it's okay, they wrestle through concepts. They have thoughts that are that are not just sourced from a source who got a source, who got a source, or just Instagram clips, or just reels where a preacher says a good thing. Analog is cutting through the easy, spoon-fed, chewed-up noise that can just get into you where it sounds right, but it actually hasn't taken root, and it's allowing our roots to grow deeper, so that when tough times come, there's something of substance in us already. Analog disciple, does that make sense?

Unknown: 16:12

Yes. Okay. Something that I just thought of when you were saying that is, I don't want to spend this whole podcast us just going and being like, and by the way, we're saying it's okay sometimes, and we're saying it's okay, and these circumstances like, so one final time I'm going to acknowledge, like, there are great uses for AI. I definitely use AI at times, and like, yeah, it's a tool, it's great. Okay, can we move on? What I was thinking of a little bit, and we can talk about those lines, but what I was thinking a little bit, is that like the wrestling process is where the Holy Spirit meets us, introduces himself to us, teaches us to use his voice, and then as a result, later we get the answer, we get the revelation, or the understanding of who He is, or what he's doing, or what this text means. So, like, God is interested in the answer, but way more interested in introducing himself to us, developing our discernment, developing. And what's crazy is, as I'm thinking about it, AI just kind of takes you, picks you up, and then plops you at the final destination, and on paper that feels really good, like on paper that's like, oh, this is great, like I got to the answer, but like I think in some ways AI can sort of shortcut what the Holy Spirit wants to do in your life if you're asking a question, if you're rest, we're talking specifically AI in regards to Bible understanding life's problems, life questions, things like that, it actually removes the process, which might be the very thing the Holy Spirit wants to do to begin with. Like, yeah, that's actually the thing that the Holy Spirit is trying to do in our lives, and, and if we're only interested in the answer, I don't know, it's kind of like I'm interested to see how many of these people Ozempic is, you know, wow, is it accessible, and so you know, you, you spend some money and you can lose weight really, really freaking fast, I guess. What I'm wondering is, I'm interested in some long-term studies about how many of those people were able to keep off the weight without continual reliance on the product, because, like, okay, you got to the end destination of, like, I'm much skinnier, but, like, have you learned to develop a healthier relationship with food? Good interoception, knowing when I'm full and when I'm not, like, those that process of losing weight the right way actually sets you up for long-term success. Is that making any sense to you?

Dave Leake: 18:40

Yeah, for sure, for sure, and I think Ozempic in, well, who knows, I always have, I'm always a little skeptical, as far as has this been studied enough to know if it's also cancerous or if it's gonna explode your liver or whatever a few years down the road, so we'll see, I think in a similar way tools of convenience have more effects on us than just convenient shortcuts, and I think long term they're, they're potentially harmful. Okay, so, so before we get just all the way into AI, I want to talk about what, like, what has led to the concept of fake church. Obviously, it's been around for 1000s of years, I just mentioned that, but in our Western American context, I think that, especially with younger generations, like let's say Gen Z and below, but I would even say my generation feels this, like there's a real hunger for something that feels that feels authentic, that feels like it tells the truth for real. Often it's, it's like there's a hunger for something that's historic and traditional, that is not just like modern. Hey, we're contemporary, hey, we have the coolest things. Hey, like you can't like this, the same as a concert, like. And again, I'm not anti those things. Things I think, like my church, will have a lot of those things that will probably, that's my, my style and preference, but there's a hunger for something that's not just modern convenience and easy to hear and just hype, but like a real

Unknown: 20:16

Gen Z is deeply concerned, and probably Gen Alpha as well, with being manipulated, and so, and it makes sense. I mean, they're growing up in the age of deep fakes, and they're growing up in the age of AI video and fake voiceovers, and people appearing on the news wearing masks, so it's like, whoa. And conspiracy theories are rampant, and they're spreading like wildfire, so they are hyper concerned with, are you tricking me? Are you trying to trick me? Is this real? And so, what's interesting is to your point, Dave, I like lights, and I like loud music, and I like church that way, you know. I don't mind that a church feels a little bit like a concert, but they are hyper aware, is am I feeling this because the lights are low, and either the singer is really good, and we're in the key of B flat. Like, is that why I'm feeling this, or is this actually God? So, you're seeing, as I would say, an overcompensation. A lot of people are actually going to like very liturgical settings. There's actually a big rush in young men kind of going to Catholicism, and I'm not convinced they're going to even find what they're hoping to find in Catholicism, but at least they know I'm not trying to be manipulated. There's no cool smoke and mirrors factor here, there's incense that counts to smoke a little bit, but they're, they're, they're literally like you're seeing a huge trend in young men kind of going towards Catholicism or potentially the liturgical church, just because they're so hyper afraid of being manipulated.

Dave Leake: 21:48

Yeah, we actually saw something pretty similar in our generation too. It was the young restless reform movement that was going towards Catholicism and Anglicanism, and some of the more historic denominations, but it was towards a deeper study of the word. I think it's even more like that, and going to even older roots now than it was. So, you know, I've done episodes like this in the past. I'm thinking back now, because I'm thinking about the roots of where some of this came from, and my dad would have - he's like in the 50s, and then in the 60s, so his knowledge was way further back. I got, I

Unknown: 22:23

got, I got nothing.

Dave Leake: 22:26

Where mine starts is the 80s, which is still before I was born. Oh, yeah, I was gonna

Unknown: 22:30

say, how does yours know it start in the 80s?

Dave Leake: 22:32

Because, okay, so, so like the the frame that of reference that I think of is so one of the things that drives elements that can feel fake in churches is pull this lever and you're going to get this, this product, you know, kind of churches. So, in the 80s, Willow Creek with Bill Hybels, they produced this church that was very based on excellence and leadership, and again, I'm not saying that Willow Creek Creek, that Willow Creek was bad, but, like, what they did was they built a church that people really wanted to come to, and it was well organized. They produced major leaders. You had Saddleback with Rick Warren, you know. Nowadays, you have

Unknown: 23:13

just.. I mean, just because I'm thinking it's or some of our members of the audience might didn't Willow Creek have like major scandals?

Dave Leake: 23:22

Yeah, well, Bill Hybels had a fall, maybe 10 or 15 years ago.

Unknown: 23:25

Okay, where, like, no, I am saying that maybe what Willow Creek was doing was bad, not the whole thing, but I mean, yeah, I think, well, I think eventually it did get

Dave Leake: 23:33

toxic for sure. Okay, okay, I don't think.. I don't know, I think Rick Warren, and I hope he's doing, but I don't think he ever had any scandals. He had a church that grew Chris Hodges with with Highland Church of the Highlands, right? Yeah, Church of the Highlands. So it's like, and again, these are not churches that I'm saying are fake churches. I'm saying there is a process-driven church model where you do things really well, you have excellence, you produce leaders, you do growth track well, you have a very good intake form and assimilation, but all this means is like people come to your church, they want to be there, you get them involved, you get them serving, get them in groups, and if you do that well, it can actually grow the numbers of your church. The thing is, while I

Unknown: 24:15

definitely, it's definitely a little more like customer driven, right, like it's like what's their first time experience? We want them to be greeted in the parking lot, like all these types of concepts start to come, and church is sort of like, and I don't even think this is bad, but like, it's sort of church is a process, and it's a product, and we're selling something, and we're selling Jesus, so that's a good thing to sell, but like, we want you to buy, and so we're hoping to make it as accessible, fun, okay, easy. What I

Dave Leake: 24:43

mean, if this is where, so the thing is, if you do that well, it can help what you're doing. It doesn't even have to be we're selling something. If you're doing it well, it just is like we want to remove barriers that people would experience to feeling welcomed, because some churches feel very gentle. Entity, we want you to feel welcome and comfortable. We want you to have no barriers to experiencing God, but the thing is, what I think all of us, regardless as to who you are, have seen is there are churches that feel like they are able to pull those levers and grow their numbers, but you go there and it just feels hollow. It feels like the spirit of God isn't there, you're not sure if they're like, man, that the people that you meet at some of these churches, like, like, I'm not gonna name any names, and I'm literally not thinking about Florida churches right now, just in case anybody in Florida is listening, but it's like, you know, you'd meet somebody and they're like, dude, your life, like, you are a regular every week attender of this church, but I know you are not at all living for God, like, and it's, yeah, it's, it's like every church has that to become, or, or, or

Unknown: 25:50

I feel like sometimes I'm having a conversation with, like, a robot, like, it's like, welcome to church, you know, and I'm like, hey, it's like the same, it's like super friendly, but it's like superficially friendly. Maybe is that a way to put it? It's like, yeah, I'm not really getting to know you as a person, like you're like just greed. I don't know. I've definitely felt that when I visited certain churches. It's like, sure, we all just like pretending to be happy here. Like, does anyone have any problems? Are there any ugly people in this church? Why is everyone hot on stage? Like, that's crazy to me. Like, everyone's hot at this church, like that, that sort of thing. It starts to feel to me, at least, sort of plastic.

Dave Leake: 26:27

Okay, and that's that's one side. The side, and I agree, the side I was talking about is where you want to have a church people want to come to so badly that everything is inoffensive, and that there's almost a cult, a culture of, like, well, we don't really, we don't really address that from stage, like, we don't, like, we really hope that people just coming and they're hearing the word, they're being worshiped, like, they're gonna, you know, God's gonna do something in their lives, but they're really not actually hitting on, I think, the meat of discipleship, which is really surrender to Jesus, it's repentance, it's the cross, it's sin, it's, it's, you know, new life, it's, it's baptism and communions in the sack, communion, the sacraments, it's like the things that actually have the, the depths of substance, but some, can I double click on that? Huh, sure,

Unknown: 27:13

because, because it says having a form of godliness but denying its power, so I also think, in, in a quest for unoffendability, that's not a word trying to be unoffendable. They will shy away from like anything that could maybe make anyone uncomfortable. So, you were, you were referencing like the topics that would make people have to surrender more, like your sexual identity or what you do with your money. It's like, oh, we don't want to talk about that. That's really scary, but I also think, like, saying some radical things, like God wants to heal you, you know, you can move in the gifts of power, God can set you free. And then shifting church, they're afraid to shift church from content and an experience where you know you're just sitting back and kind of watching the show, and watching them worship, and you're feeling good. It's kind of like having K love in the car, to like, I want you to respond, and God's going to meet you, and who cares about your afternoon plans? God's going to touch you in a powerful way, like they, they never seem to have a form of godliness, but denying its power, and I think probably I noticed that, because, yeah, altar calls are kind of going away. Think things like that. Is that also what you're talking about?

Dave Leake: 28:27

Yeah, probably. Well, that's more of a pastoral leadership perspective. And I think that, so to me, I think that's one of the things I'm wrestling through. You know, it's one of the best ways to grow a church larger is to have shorter services in general, you know, an hour long, hour 15 minute long service, and that's not bad. I think APC, our home church, still does that hour 15, but like sometimes it, we want it to be so condensed and so scheduled, and like the parking lot can't be too full, like we, you know, it's like, and again, I just.. I know my dad would have wanted to put these caveats out there. He was always so wary crushed by the

Unknown: 29:09

opposite. I'm like, yeah, yeah. So,

Dave Leake: 29:11

so, so the way he would have done it, I just.. I do want to say it's.. it's not like if you do shorter services, because I may do them. I'm not saying it has to be an hour and a half or two hours to get into the presence of God. No, no, but like there is a way to do things in a almost fast food corporation way. Like, leadership is discipleship. I don't think it is, by the way. I have a bone to pick with that. I don't think making leaders is making disciples. Make you can have a great leader who's a terrible disciple, and vice versa. They often should produce the same things, but they're not the same things. So, like, we can produce, you know, convenient fast food leadership factories where people have a great experience, and they are, they, you know, it's a church that unsaved people love to come to, but nobody actually really gets saved, nobody really repents, nobody. Is actually allowing the word of God to transform them, and the Jordan. Well, I'll let you jump wherever you want to from this, but this is where AI is dangerous, because it makes it so much easier to do that.

Unknown: 30:17

You're saying, 'Oh, I think that's a pastoral discussion. I'm going to push back, because I think there are people listening right now that are leading life groups in their home, and there are kind of two ways to do a life group in your home, like there is like the hey come and I'll have a nice meal for you, have a nice discussion, and then like hey see you later, or there's like a hey you brought up something really heavy and we're gonna double click on that and it might, there's a risk to this, but like, also all of us love you, and we want to get you help and healthy, and so we're expecting God to move in this, so we're gonna, we're gonna derail the stupid questions, and we're gonna minister to someone, or we're gonna lay hands on someone who's like sick, there's a difference if someone's like, yeah, like I'm really nervous about diagnosis, oh, everyone be in prayer this week. Verse, like right here, right now, God can move. I do think that, actually, you know, there's the in theory, God can heal. In actuality, God can heal. In theory, He can bring breakthrough. I'm literally thinking right here, right now, in, in, you know, my cubicle, I can pray for someone in the power, God can move. I think that's part of the plastic thing. It's like we talk about God who parts the Red Sea and David who kills Goliath, but like we're not moving or have any expectation to move that way. And I do understand. I think as we define what feels plastic, AI is getting yuckier and yuckier in my mind, but I don't think it's just a pastoral discussion on how long should service be. You're right, you know. God can move. I think it's what is the expectation of the church, of the gathering of believers, and, and who God can be to us, that I think is very important. That then, when you start to think about AI, you're like, okay, there's there's value to this, but it's not everything, and content, and catchy sayings, or you know, short change discipleship is not the same as deep rooted discipleship, analog disciples, as you would agreed.

Dave Leake: 32:13

Okay, so, so let's let's dive into a few of the aspects where we have to make a choice of depth over convenience, you know. I think one of them is when we're talking about like digging in and handling the word of God, and we were talking earlier about how you said AI is like it takes you a picture of like a crane and drops you off in a different location, and it's like it's often at a mostly right answer, like, yeah, it's

Unknown: 32:44

close,

Dave Leake: 32:45

yeah. As someone who, like, you know, I would not say I'm a theologian, you know, on the level of somebody who has their doctorate, or I mean, I don't even have a master's yet, I just have a Bible degree. Me and Jordan went to the same Bible college, by the way, shout out to CBC. It's, but like, as someone who's had a measure of training and studying the word, it's easier to spot things, but it's like AI will get something mostly right, but there's like important things they're missing or lacking clarification on, or nuances they don't have, or it might even be like they're sharing a perspective that somebody would say is valid, but that I don't say I don't think actually is valid, because I think it's missing context, like I think that yes, bro, one of the things that's dangerous for Christians in general is relying on a tool of convenience like this, because if you're not careful, it like gives you enough references and it feels good enough that it's close, but you may be like, I don't even know to say this. You may be starting to see a fake version of God because you're not really reading the word of God.

Unknown: 33:51

Yes, for

Dave Leake: 33:52

what it's meant to be read. Okay,

Unknown: 33:54

wait, no, I'll, I'll say it more intense. Okay, first of all, AI does a good job at making us think it's a person, like sometimes, sometimes I even, if I'm like referring to AI, I'll say, like, he said to me, or something, which is so cringe, and if you're judging me, listening right now, I guarantee you've done it, so you're now, you're gonna catch yourself and feel bad, because it's like, oh yeah, well, he told me that, blah blah, and I'm like, oh my gosh, AI makes you think it's thinking, it's not even says I'm thinking, and it's toxin like the first person. Do not let it dupe you. It is grabbing and pulling a conglomerate of stuff from the internet. It's taking what the general consensus is, and then it's trying to spit that out to you and explain it to you. Okay, here's the problem that I see, first of all, first of all, in my particular denomination, what I believe, I think that there is a pushback, specifically in America, against the power of God and the Holy Spirit moving. So, when I'm asking AI about, like, hey, what does this text mean, or can you explain this passage to me, it's a pull from the majority, and the majority of. People want an intellectual faith, not a real embodied physical, yeah, embodied faith experience. And so, sometimes what it's going to do is it's going to be like no, not really. Don't don't be a lunatic, don't be wild, don't go so crazy and believe that God can't, because that is truthfully what a lot of dead churches believe, so there's more net content on the internet of that opinion than the other. Another thing that AI does, which is funny, is it tries to like play both sides, you know? It's like I'm a Republican and a Democrat, or like I believe in science and in faith, and it tries to like walk the line because it can see that there are two different discussions taking place on the internet, so what's funny is it will say something largely cessationalist, and what I mean by that is just not believing in the power of God, not believing that God can move, not believing that like God can show up and break addiction, so it'll say something like that, and then it'll at the end be like, but I guess he can't, and you'll have these two contrasting ideas in one sentence, and some dope pastor, respectfully, will put it up on the screen, and it's like that's not a complete thought, you're playing both sides, and, and Jesus was not interested in us saying the safest thing. This isn't a political speech, like we're speaking what truth is, and we're speaking the word of God. So, when you rely on AI, you start to think, oh, this is a person I'm consulting, it, and it probably has a good working knowledge. No, it's a conglomerate of what's just out there on the internet, and what happens in not now, but what happens in 50 years, 60 years, 70 years, you know, when my kids are 70 and their kids, and the do we think that people in America are going to be more inclined towards Christianity or less inclined? Okay, do you think the content on the internet is going to be more for a biblical view of marriage or less? So, what happens when the internet starts to shift further and further, further, further net away from God is AI gonna reflect that? Yes, absolutely. So you can't rely on AI, it's not thinking, it's not your pastor, and it doesn't hold the truth. It just literally reflects probably the culture as best as it can. You know what I mean?

Dave Leake: 37:15

Well, it also hallucinates. We won't get into that whole thing, but AI sometimes just makes stuff up. I was looking for sermon illustrations a few years ago. Now, like, this is, I think it's improved since then, but I was asking you for something about a lighthouse, and it gave me two historical examples. I was like, that's perfect. And then I was like, I'm just gonna double check these. Totally fake. The year was fake, the lighthouse was fake, the historical figures were fake. It's like AI can like hallucinate and just make crap up, which I don't understand how or why it does that, but it's just not a trustworthy source.

Unknown: 37:47

Do you mind if I interject the thought?

Dave Leake: 37:49

Yeah, this is Producer Matt. Go ahead.

Unknown: 37:51

Yeah, buddy, I think this is my first time being on video for this, so yeah, I just had a thought that comes with that, and I always think about there was another individual in the Bible that likes to use 95% truth and just twist things a little bit, interject, and that's the devil. So it's like not saying Chat GBT or AI is the devil, okay? But I'm saying that it is very dangerous, because even when Jesus was tempted by the devil, he was using scripture, so it's like you can have scripture, and just the wrong interpretation, or those type of things, could be pretty dangerous. Yes, that's

Dave Leake: 38:27

true. I think one of the other dangers, when it comes to using AI to read the word, is like we can give ourselves credit as pastors that we've already done enough study to where we basically know what AI is saying anyway, and so we just feed a few of our thoughts in and have it produce the content, and it's like, yeah, now I can riff off of this. Like, I think there to me, I think there's a huge, huge difference for between whenever I actually sit with the word

Unknown: 38:58

yes, and I

Dave Leake: 38:58

study it, and I pray through it, and I like, don't love my wording, and I rewrite it, and then I think about it again, and then I maybe have to shift the point. There's a huge difference between that and whenever I get an outline that's kind of my thoughts, and I just riff off of it off the top of my head. It's kind of like, you know, I used to, when I was a campus pastor, there were there were a couple of years where I would get messages from time to time that were like an all-campus thing that my dad had written, and it was such a difficult process, because the few times I've been a message

Unknown: 39:30

that you were supposed to preach, like it was already prayed. Yes, okay, it

Dave Leake: 39:34

was my dad's message, I was given notes for it, I was supposed to preach that message. The few times I tried to preach what he had written, it wasn't coming from me, and so it feels like clunky and awkward, and it was true, and it wasn't AI content, I mean, it was, it was organic, it was produced by my dad's prayer life and his Bible reading, and it was true, but it wasn't from me, and so it didn't carry the same, I don't know how to say. Like it didn't feel alive, conviction, yes, a conviction. So I'd have to like really wrestle through it and pray through it, and I'd rewrite different lines, and I'd watch this video over and over again till I kind of got it to be internalized for me. AI is like that, but like a lot worse, because the material is actually not wrestled through by somebody who has a spirit, you know what I mean. It's like it's like taking some of your thoughts. Okay, so what AI does really well. AI is really good at organizing. If you have stuff and you have, you've like manuscripted, you've typed it out, you have thoughts, you've studied it, can help to organize, it can help to clarify. But I think it becomes obvious, and it becomes hollow when AI does content producing. That is my big line to not cross. AI as an organizer, AI as a clarifier, sometimes is helpful. When AI becomes a producer of thoughts that you use, it begins to feel like we're substituting something spiritual for something mechanical, and something that just, frankly, is a little fake. That's my thought. What do you? Yeah, the

Unknown: 41:09

Bible, the Bible talks about, I've hidden your word in my heart, so that I might not sin against you. So, like, I have hidden my word in your, or your word in my heart, so I might not sin. I'm not convinced that that process is just.. I understood three bullet points about God's word, and I heard someone say it, and now it's like the process of hiding something in your heart, you're massaging it in there, and then what does it produce? It produces an ability to stand up against sin, you're short changing that process, and yeah, it's it's a counterfeit, and it, I think it's awesome that you use this verse. It has a form of godliness, it sounds right, but it lacks and denies the power of God, because you can't microwave every spiritual journey, every spiritual lesson you're supposed to learn, like sometimes you need a home-cooked spiritual meal, and microwavable truth doesn't have the depth. This is, by the way, my biggest tell when pastors use AI versus when they don't, and the tell is that I, they say a line that feels extremely interesting, and you're like, oh, like it maybe even has that rhyme, or there's a lot of complicated words in it, or interesting, unique thoughts, and they say it, they're like, you know, I don't know what an example would be, but they, they say that line, it goes on the screen, they say it again, and then they move on, and it's like, oh, you haven't mined the depths of this. There are four words in this one quote that I'm interested in you doubling down on. Where did you get that? Where does that come from? How does it tie back to the text? What did God reveal to you? Give me a personal story, but there's no, they got it from AI. They're like, oh, that's gonna cook. They say it, and then they move on because it's like, oh, the depth is not there, and candidly, before I dunk on them, I have used AI before, especially early when I was trying to figure out what my line was, and I remember AI had a better line than me, like I had a line, and it was like one concept, and they had an AI had another one, I was like, okay, I'll use them both, but I'll start with the AI one, and I remember I'm live, I'm preaching, I say the line, and typically, honestly, my notes that I use when preaching, I know this is very specific to pastors, but I think it's good for you guys to hear, I typically I have bullet points, so I say a line, and then out of like what I don't know what God revealed to me, like how I wrote that line. I just start to cook, dude. I said the line, I dropped it, and I was like, "I have nothing to say. Like, it was so shallow, and I was like, "Hm, and I tried to, like, yeah, like improv through it, but it was dog water. Like, I was like,"Dude, I'm fake as crap for this, and I moved on. And it was that moment that, like, when I was reviewing my sermon later, I'm like, yeah, we're never doing that again, because it lacked depth, and something, something else that I'll say that AI does is AI has a list of priorities, I don't know exactly what they are, but I will tell you, I know, in terms of spiritual content, it has a higher priority on being a good communicator on rhyme on contrast than it does on biblical truth, authority, power, and accuracy. So, if it had to, it's always going to produce a rhymey, cool, trendy sounds good similar like sentence structure. It will always prioritize that, and then in its place it would rather be a little less accurate, and that is what I feel all the time, all the time, all the time when I'm looking at AI content. I'm like, this isn't 100% accurate. Accurate, so it's missing some accuracy factor and over prioritizing the polish. Yeah, right, that's that's trash.

Dave Leake: 45:10

Let me just hit a few quick scriptures that I think are reflective of this. John 15 five is where Jesus talks about vine and branches. He says, "I'm the vine, you are the branches. If you remain in me, you will bear much fruit. Apart from me, you can do nothing. The act of remaining come on is spending time in God's presence and in the word. It's not short cutting the painful process about me to actually ingest, you know, a book that is 1000s of years old, that's translated through other languages to us. I mean, sometimes the wording structure is hard to understand at the beginning, even as pastors. It's like this is a confusing verse, but remaining in Jesus is also spending time in his word and in his presence. In Matthew six six, Jesus talks about, you know, don't be like pagans. Here's what it says. Let me pull this up. Matthew six six. When you pray, go into your room, close the door, pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, secret will reward you. You know, there's, there's something about the substance formed and the secret place at the feet of God. We could talk about Mary sitting at Jesus' feet, time in his presence, not like Martha, not just being productive, but she's actually spending time in his presence, in his word. In Acts 413 it talks about the disciples, how people could tell they had spent time with Jesus. Jor was an Acts teacher. Here's what it says. I'm sure you read this verse many times. When they saw the courage of Peter and John realized they were ordinary, unschooled, unschooled, ordinary men. They were astonished and took note that these men had been with Jesus. Like, I realize we're talking somewhat about this mixture of prayer and time in God's presence, but using AI to shortcut the process of spending time in the Word. Or we could even just say this: sometimes I think just listening to the Bible on audio too much is just allowing it to sort of filter through us, especially

Unknown: 47:08

when you're multitasking, you know what I mean? Like, if you're like, I'm driving and I'm doing chores and I'm getting my Bible time in, isn't it? Isn't that the most American thing in the world? How do I optimize this? How do I, you know, rush through my Jesus time, like, it, you know, get to the answer quicker, get to the checkbox quicker.

Dave Leake: 47:26

Exactly, yeah, totally super American. And I'm gonna be honest, that happens to me sometimes. Sometimes it's like I want to catch up my Bible reading, and so I'm gonna do it as I'm driving, and as I'm whatever, whatever else I'm doing. But yeah, don't

Unknown: 47:40

remember what I read, like I literally like spent time with God, and I can't tell you, I was like, did I do that chapter yet? Oh, I did, and it's like, dude, that's trash, like that's not, yeah. And I think, I think I mean, just you, you're throwing on good scriptures. I think anytime in the Bible someone takes a shortcut, it's never really.. there are no shortcuts in your relationship with God, like anytime anyone's trying to take a little shortcut in their walk with God, it is viewed negatively. Think about Saul, who's like waiting on the prophet, and he's like, I'm just gonna like the sacrifice myself. He lost the kingship because of that. It's like, no, you were supposed to wait, and there was a process there. The, it's a parable, so I guess it didn't actually happen, but the Prodigal Son, who's like, "Dude, I want my money now. Like, I wish you were dead now. I want the inheritance now. Or even the man who just starts building before counting the cost. It's like you can't just build and hope you have the materials, like the process of so all these rushes. I want it now, I want it quick. It negates the whole purpose of what the Holy Spirit wants to do in your life. There's not going to be a shortcut, Dave. Why do you think, why do you think it is so attractive when we know this net in our heart, like we know that there's no like shortcuts to almost anything in life? So, why is AI? Because, yeah, I can dog on it all I want, but, like, I understand the temptation. That's probably why I'm so passionate, because I've, like, used it a couple times and felt like it was hollow. Or I see what people are like when they're, you know, Chat GBT disciples, or like, you know, discipled on the internet exclusively. Why do you think people are so drawn to this, even though we know it's bad for us.

Dave Leake: 49:25

I just think I think we're a culture of convenience, and I think it's hard not to. I mean, like, you have - we're all so busy, there are so many things to do. Yeah, why would I spend quadruple the amount of time doing something and feel like I'm behind on other things that are on my to-do list, when I could just get it done faster, and that's that's just that's the default way of operating, but it's also like something that if we don't put intentionality into, I think it can have massive toxic long-term effects for us, so a. Okay, one last thing. I want to hit.. I don't think we have time for it. I wanted to.. I wanted

Unknown: 50:07

to.. they're already listening, bro. We're fine, we're fine.

Dave Leake: 50:10

Okay,

Unknown: 50:11

rip it.

Dave Leake: 50:12

So, I just.. I wanted to talk about, additionally, when it comes to the traps of fake church, how we can make sure we're not just being marked by leadership, but we're being marked by love. We're actually, like, you know, diving into that kind of, that

Unknown: 50:30

kind of sounded like AI. I'm not gonna let my.. I'm not gonna lie, lead.. we're not just marked by leadership, we're marked by love. Oh, wait, hold on. I'm actually serious. My AIDR went off because I don't understand that. What, what does love, how does love contrast? Okay,

Dave Leake: 50:47

meaning this, meaning this. Did you use AI

Unknown: 50:50

for that? You got to be honest.

Dave Leake: 50:51

No, I, I truly had this. I truly Matt's

Unknown: 50:55

laughing. I think we both think that was AI dog.

Dave Leake: 50:58

No, I believe

Unknown: 50:59

you. I believe you.

Dave Leake: 51:01

Okay, I'll explain the idea, and that way you can know it's not just the shallow stops there. Yeah,

Unknown: 51:06

come on, proof of concept, right here. Let's, here's the proof of

Dave Leake: 51:09

concept. When we, when we say leadership is discipleship, then leadership becomes the end goal. No

Unknown: 51:18

one's, no one's actually saying that, but I think they are. I think that people think that, like, I think that, hey, if you want to be discipled, we have, you know, a two-week class, and then you're gonna serve coffee, and that's your discipleship. Like, people are people actually saying that. I feel like that's their.. what their church leaders are.

Dave Leake: 51:35

Church leaders are saying that

Unknown: 51:37

that's a terrible thing that they're saying. That's.. I have heard so

Dave Leake: 51:40

many times I have been on, I have been on several.. I don't want to say what I've been in several settings where I've heard people say that directly in the last six months, like I would say

Unknown: 51:53

crazy.

Dave Leake: 51:55

Yes, so I like, so like I think leadership is partly valuable. It can be part of it. Yes, it's valuable.

Unknown: 52:03

I think, without giving them real responsibility, and you know, delegating things to them to create maturity. I do think that you're lacking in your discipleship of them. They're not just meant to be a surge and soak up, they got to do something, but it's a factor. But it is not the be all end all.

Dave Leake: 52:18

No. Well, okay. Discipleship is followership first and foremost. Discipleship is apprenticeship to Jesus, so it's not leadership, it's followership. Now, you do have to begin to lead yourself to follow Jesus, I suppose, but it starts as a followership, and then as you become a more developed disciple, hopefully you're also leading others to follow, which there's a quality of leadership to it, but at its core, discipleship, I think, is followership before it's leadership. So, when we say leadership is discipleship, or we build our programs like leadership, it's discipleship, or we live our lives like leadership is discipleship. What we're doing is making disciples that are marked by leadership. They're a, they're a great recruiter, they're a great organizer, they, they know how to say the right things, they know how to send the right text, they know how to, how to produce excellence, excellent experience, excellent environments, excellent teams. They might

Unknown: 53:11

not even have a prayer life, like they're, they're just, they're just good at that already. So, like, you could take a five-star general and throw him in your church, and he could lead a great follow-up process for your church, and he'd have that coffee humming, and those signed people would be waving, like, but that dude can do that without a prayer life, and the disciples he produces will be on time, and they'll be sharp, and they'll, you know, have really the right ratio of coffee, which, by the way, as far as church coffee goes, that's a huge thing, so we need more people, I guess, like the five-star general, because, man, that coffee be watered down sometimes. I digress. I digress. But, but, yeah, are the.. is the disciples he's going to produce, know how to pray for someone sick and see them get well, or know how to go through hard things when they get a terrible diagnosis, know how to raise up godly kids, or say no to vices? No.

Dave Leake: 54:00

Well, and let me, let me hit my mark, let me hit my mark by love instead of leadership thing. Oh, this is what I'm saying. So, the, you know, Jesus says that they'll, they will know you by your love, right? The one thing that actually marks a major difference to me, like you can feel it between a disciple and just a leader. Leaders can feel loveless, like that's also not an AI line. Don't accuse me of it. Laters can feel totally lacking love. It doesn't sound like an AI paranoid

Unknown: 54:28

leaders can feel

Dave Leake: 54:29

loveless. Sounds like an AI line, because it's alliteration. So I'm like, I didn't steal them from AI either. But leaders, like you know, they can feel organized and productive and fast, and you know, my tendency is to be more task focused than people focused, just being totally honest, like I love people, and I want to love people, yeah, shocking, but like I tend to like want to get stuff done, and like let's let's produce results, let's be efficient, but like the true mark of someone that's following Jesus is that you're. Love for people and for God increases, and that should be something that's palpable and felt. So, like, we can produce excellent leadership development pipelines that have absolutely nothing to do with love, and love that's grown cold is really not love for God. Does that make sense? What I'm saying, so

Unknown: 55:17

I mean, that was what I was describing, like when I don't know, you go to the welcome center, and you feel like you're talking. It feels like I'm at Hollister. You're like, "Hey, need any help today? And it's like, I like that you're friendly, but I don't think you give a rip about me. And your job is to welcome me, but I feel very much in a process, and also I don't think you want to hang out. Like, I, you know, you're welcoming me to your church, but the most welcoming thing you could do would be like love me, and yeah, and I don't feel, yeah, sometimes the polish, so it's interesting going back to like the whole liturgical thing, or whatever, I do think that sometimes when the lights are so bright and the excellence is so high you accidentally blink, and you've produced like a show, like SNL, because the lights are on, and you need your best speaker, and it's 321, go, and they're like, "Hey, everybody, welcome to Cool, Awesome, Amazing, Hip Church, and I'm your host, and, oh, wait, I mean, like, I'm, you know, a member here, it's like you can accidentally sort of produce excellence without, to your point, love. So, yeah, I agree. I think I said that earlier.

Dave Leake: 56:24

Yeah, I heard a pastor. I really liked this. He said, you know, Chick-fil-A is always friendly, but you're not going to make friends at Chick-fil-A. It's like that feel like they're never like we both worked at McDonald's. We were 1617, whatever. I like best

Unknown: 56:39

drive. I was the best drive-thru welcomer you've ever had. You were great, and you

Dave Leake: 56:44

were always friendly, but you, not all McDonald's people are friendly. We all know that all Chick-fil-A, Chick-fil-A workers are friendly. They have to be. They're trained to it, you know. It's like penalty of death if you're not, you know, save my pleasure or whatever. But, like, it's not a place that you can necessarily make friends. There's not that deeper, authentic, loving culture going

Unknown: 57:04

through the drive to, you know, confess sins or get some.. I don't know, like it, yeah, you know what it is and what it isn't,

Dave Leake: 57:12

yeah. Okay, my kids are about to walk into my living room at any second, so for the sake of this podcast not having a crazy screaming, that sounds like

Unknown: 57:19

a great ending to me.

Dave Leake: 57:22

Great ending to me. For the sake of wrapping this podcast up, landing, landing this plane, I guess. What would you say? Quick bullet points. Where, where would you say that you would endorse the use of AI, and where is the line where it's gone too far?

Unknown: 57:39

I think that if you're approaching a text and you want to research it, what would you typically do before AI? You would Google something, you'd be like, "Hey, what's this? Give me what does this passage mean? What's the original language? Can you walk me through? You would Google that, then you would click on a website, and it would, you know, walk you through. If all you're using AI to do is like a search tool while you're approaching a text, and you're like, hey, walk me through the original language, and it's the start of a research journey. It's excellent, because it is pulling from a lot of different websites, and that you can't really fudge the thing. Where it goes too far is when you're getting spiritual advice, or you're trying to minister, or you're trying to pastor, you're taking the application, and I think the Holy Spirit wants to be invited into the application of that for you personally, for your small group that you're leading, or for your church if you're a pastor. So, I think, like, it's an awesome research tool, like you want to double-check stuff, so it doesn't hallucinate. That's kind of scary, but yeah, I mean, we were gonna Google stuff anyway. We were already gonna look up, you know, I don't know, maybe even people used to use the internet for small group questions. That's a good start. It should never be the start, middle, and end, but I think it's an excellent start. Do you agree with that?

Dave Leake: 58:51

I agree with it. I think the middle that you can't substitute is there still has to be time spent in the word, and there has to be time not short cutting the presence of God. Well, I'm talking, I'm talking

Unknown: 59:01

about researching, bro. So, like, researching is, is mental, but when you're like in your secret place, you're, you're abiding, you're John 15 and remaining, you're, you're praying over your family and your friends, like you're letting the word minister to you, you're being honest about what you, you're not just looking for a one liner, you're being honest about. Yeah, okay. Really quick, really quick. I know your kids are out there walking on the door, dude. I've noticed that a lot of the kids that I'm discipling, the way they read their Bible is what's the coolest thing I can write in the margin of my Bible. So they're like clip farming lines to write on the side of the Bible, but, but if you're gonna write something in your Bible, it should be what the Lord is speaking to you, you know, like I need to do this more, or like I feel conviction here. Holy Spirit, help me. It's a relationship with God forming you into the image of Christ, not so what's the one liner from this text? It's a shift that needs to happen where you're asking God. To minister to you, full stop. Not what's the quote I can get from this? Is that making sense?

Dave Leake: 1:00:07

Totally, the content that still feels very outward facing. The bias, what do I get from the Bible that I can tell others about, or that I could have as a line in my pocket? That's the danger. God,

Unknown: 1:00:18

these kids are getting saved, and they're quickly being like, I'm going to produce content for Jesus. No, stop, don't, don't do it. You can't minister to freaking anyone. Chill, pump the brakes. You need to know Jesus, and you need to let him speak. And then from there, out of the out of that overflow, then you're able to minister. But when you're reading your Bible for what do I say, what am I going to say in my small group? You're already looking at the wrong perspective, because the Bible needs to read you first as you read it, not, oh, this is this is going to be good for my small group, so it's, it's just, it's, yeah, it's, it's okay, I know, I can see, look at you, no, I gotta wrap it

Dave Leake: 1:00:54

up, I'm telling you, let them in, well, I, yeah, good way to end balance. There's a balance to all this stuff. It's not like you have to go be Amish somewhere in a field and not use technology, but make sure you're not short circuiting your walk with God by over reliance on fake stuff instead of a diet of God's presence in the word of God the way that He's asked us to come on, all right. Just want to say one more time, thank you so much for joining us on the Rethink Revive podcast. Huge thanks to Jordan Clarick from Jor Talks Discipleship. If you want to check out his podcast for us, you can always help us out by leaving a five-star review or by sharing it with a friend. You can repost a clip on social, like Producer Matt will have for us some point, probably all this helps. So we want to say one more time, huge thank you. We'll see you guys again next.