Rescuing Elephants: Hidden Forest's Inspiring Mission

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In today’s episode, we’re joined by Russell, co-founder of the Hidden Forest Elephant Reserve in Phuket, Thailand. Along with his business partner Louise, Russell has helped redefine elephant tourism by creating a sanctuary that prioritizes the well-being of elephants over traditional practices.

We'll hear about his journey into elephant conservation, the challenges of transitioning elephant camps to more ethical models, and the transformative impact of rescue and rehabilitation. Russell also shares the stories of two elephants in their care, Sujai and Wasana, offering a glimpse into the real difference ethical tourism can make.

This conversation is a must-listen for anyone passionate about animal welfare, responsible travel, and creating positive change through our travel choices.

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Transcript

Brighde: Hello, Russell, and welcome to the World Vegan Travel Podcast. 

Russell: Well, it's nice to be here. 

Brighde: I'm very pleased to have you joining us today because we're actually going to be coming to visit you with our group in February 2024 when we come back to Thailand. I am so excited! And you really do have work in this space that has an intersect between like travel and animal protection, which is one of my favorite things to talk about. So can you give us a very sort of brief overview, and of course, we're going to dig into this a lot more, about what it is that you do. 

Russell: Hidden Forest is something that Louise and I have been working towards for a long time. Louise has got 14 years experience with elephants in Asia, and I've now got 10 years experience. And we've helped a number of different projects over the years change from riding camps and other things to an ethical model. There wasn't anything in Phuket when we first started back in 2016. And we didn't really know what we were doing, 100 percent to be honest with you. We just wanted to show people what we wanted to see, which was elephants behaving like elephants, as opposed to just these funny things that look like elephants that were stood in one position, or just forced around. Over the years we've helped other people, and this is the first project that we've actually done ourselves with our business partner, of course. We're in Thailand. He looks after the elephant site. He's a generational mahout, so great grandfather, was an early days mahout. He's someone we've known for a long time, and being in it from the start, and actually doing it with someone who understands our kind of methodologies allows us to have complete freedom to do what we want, which is slow paced, easy, vegan food that we're serving. We don't tell anybody it's vegan food prior. We would just force it on them basically. We found over the years that sometimes if you put vegan food down, some people do turn their nose up still. So we do a lot of education, but there's also a lot of quiet moments when we're walking around and sitting in observation areas that we set up around where the elephants wanted to be, as opposed to where we wanted the elephants to come. So we've created or worked with the land and the elephants to ensure that the elephants have got a full focus and that their number one priority is taken care of, which is their well being, plenty of food, plenty of water and just a lot of peace. So the forest environment we've chosen is just silent and it's not like being in Phuket. So it's beautiful, yeah.  

Brighde: I guess that's why you are called Hidden Forest as well. That's really lovely. I'd love to share a little story that I have from when I first started coming to Thailand. And I'd love to have your thoughts on this, and for you to clarify some things because I think people don't really necessarily understand why we have come to this point, like why we have elephants that tourists are riding and how that came to be. 

Back in 2001, I think it was, I was vegetarian at this point and I worked for Intrepid and at that time Intrepid included elephant rides as an included activity. They don't now, they made the decision to stop including elephant rides quite a few years ago now. And some of our travelers would ask us, is it okay to ride these elephants? And part of my job was to make people feel comfortable about what they were doing. And I really thought that I was telling the right information at the time. And I said that Thailand used to have a lot of elephants in the logging industry, bearing in mind we would do elephant riding in Khao Sok which I don't think was a place where there was ever logging with elephants, although I couldn't be 100 percent sure about that, and now there's no logging anymore. We have to ride elephants to give them a job. And by doing that we're actually helping the elephants. The travelers back then would just accept this, and because of that, feel a lot better about riding these elephants. Now, of course, my stance on this has completely changed and I know a lot more, and what the elephants go through. But why is it that we have come to a place that we have domesticated and exploited elephants in Thailand in the first place?  

Russell: It's a difficult one to trace back. If you're going to go way further back into history, elephants have been used for war. They've been used in a domesticated way for farming and for other things over the years. If you look at the history of the English in India, on the back of elephants, hunting tigers on the back of elephants, and that real image that people I think have in their head that was quite glamorous about, the funny white pointy hat and all posh, and the ladies in the nice dresses and things like that. I don't think that kind of image helps, but unfortunately at the time, going back, what is it, late eighties, mid-eighties, something like that, 30 odd years ago when the logging or wholesale logging, should we say, was banned because of all the flooding that was happening, like many other places around the world, not just in Thailand, but around the world. If you stop something, you really do need to give it an alternative. And realistically, there was no alternative for people who had elephants that weren't allowed to log anymore. Coinciding with the fact that people were venturing further afield to go on holiday as opposed to like those English people who used to go for Spain and France because it was close. We never even imagined going to Asia for holidays. So it coincided quite heavily with the upturn in more kind of like further afield tourism or longer travel. Yeah, it's a difficult one. The traditional side of it is questionable, and in my opinion, there's a lot of leaning back on culture and tradition when it comes to elephants. I think that's extended a little bit too far. But again, along with the practices that used to be done with horses. The breaking of the spirit with horses. It was aggression. It was violence towards the animal to make them fear you to do what they wanted to do. And so this kind of harked back to a similar time where everything around the world was happening in a similar way. So I don't know. It's a funny conversation, but that's unfortunately ended with money. And realistically, that's the upshot of it all. People need to earn money, and that's what they did. And then the tourism exploded and it was an easy way to make loads of money. The unfortunate exotic animals that we've got, all blessed in Thailand, monkeys, and tigers, and alligators, and the reality of tourism. So yeah, I suppose that's a long answer to a short question. 

Brighde: No, I learnt a lot there. Thank you so much. Can you explain what it is that elephants have to go through to be able to be domesticated or to be able to be ridden because this is something that really was quite hidden until, I think, Peter did some undercover footage and released it, but I'm not sure whether listeners would have heard of this. Can you explain the Prajan? 

Russell: I've seen some videos, and it's debated and brushed under the carpet, and hidden. Obviously, still. Nobody wants to see really what happens. It's very difficult for me to comment on being in Thailand on something that I've never seen. I been shown videos. There's plenty of videos on YouTube. We do show an educational video. It's a mild version to show our customers a little bit about the reality. We took that, and with permission from World Animal Protection. They were actually showing it in Thailand to the Thai people with which there was a petition signed by many thousands of people in Thailand. It was after they'd actually seen the videos that were out there about the separation of the mother and the baby. But again, without trying to dodge the question, we know it happens because there's no really other way to get an elephant to do what you want to do. But the reality is, in the past it was all very slow process with the family, and it was a lot kinder and gentler. Tourism has speeded up by many folds. I think the only way to speed it up is really more aggression. But again, for me, it's we can only do the best with what we've got which is to rescue older elephants and give them a nice second part of their lives doing as much as they possibly can of natural behavior in a space which is as natural as we can possibly have within the confines of a piece of land. 

 Can you talk about domestic animals versus wild animals and what the situation is for wild elephants right now, 

Brighde: It deviates quite heavily. The numbers in Phuket, for example, when it comes to quiet season, which is what we're in now, then green season, as with all the rains, the numbers of elephants on Phuket any one time in this time of the year is half ordinarily with the rest of the elephants going back up to the provinces in the north of Thailand. 

That is new to me. I didn't know they travelled during the season, that they have to make such a long trip. That is shocking. 

Russell: I never thought about  

that.  

Especially, yeah, it's difficult because, you've got some elephants that are coming way north back into Phuket. But, for these people, these families, you've got to imagine as well, that they're on small pieces of land and it's very difficult to sustain a business, an elephant riding or bathing business, if you're a small operator. You really relying on high season to make all your money for the year. And the cost of food when it comes to Phuket, being an island, there's not huge amounts of food compared to the amount of people that need it, or the amount of elephants, should I say, that need it. As far as numbers from a national perspective, it's difficult. Some people say wild is 2, 800, for example. From what I understand, there's not as many as that in the tourism industry. But I'm not sure who's actually counting the wild elephants. A lot of the true wild elephants are on borderlands, in between Malaysia, Laos, Myanmar,  

Cambodia. That's where a lot of wild elephants in there because nobody goes in there. There's nasty things that can bite you and sting you. 

Brighde: Smart. 

Russell: In there. 

So I think there's quite a lot of wild elephants there. And the National Park Elephants that are here in Thailand, I suppose you could deem them really, majority of them semi-wild because  

 they are a bit desensitized compared to the cousins in the true forest on the borders, so to speak. 

Brighde: And what is the main threat facing wild elephants? Is it habitat destruction or not enough.  

Russell: The same is happening from what we've been told in Africa now. It's the populations in Africa are exploding, but unfortunately, the land's being separated into farming land. The same as what it has been in right the way across Asia, not just Thailand, right across Asia. So the usual feeding patterns and walking patterns have been disrupted pretty much everywhere. And this is the difficult thing that elephants face in the wild because a farmer depends on his crops to survive for the year. An elephant comes through and can demolish it in half an hour, so that's where the conflict starts and the elephant's not going to come out on top, in the majority of the cases. So it's difficult. Yeah, it's difficult. Elephants have got a rough job. 

Brighde: Yeah, it's tricky, isn't it? I remember feeling terribly conflicted a few years ago. Botswana, a country that we visit on our trips has a huge population of elephants. And until a few years ago now, there was no hunting at all. And a guy who wanted to become president or prime minister, I'm not quite sure which one it is, but he ran on a platform of, 'I know that you are losing your crops due to elephants. I know that there's a lot of poverty. I know all of these things. I know a lot of people are being killed by elephants as well,' and these people are very poor and really struggling to make a living. 'And if you elect me, then I will bring back trophy hunting in very small areas to address this.' And this guy got in, and he delivered his word. A lot of vegans were very upset and wanted to boycott Botswana. I get it. But hunting is in most countries in the world. It really is, and it's tricky to punish Botswana for backsliding, but this was a democracy and apparently people wanted it. I'm not saying I like it. I wish there was another way, but that's what happened in this country. And I'm happy to say in Botswana, it's only in a small area, but this is how democracies go, unfortunately. 

Russell: Don't know what's democracy anymore, really, but Billy Connolly, Scottish comedian. He once said that anyone that has the intention to be in power should immediately be barred from ever being in power. And it's a very true word. A lot of wrong can be done with the wrong or right intentions. Yeah.  

Brighde: I haven't ever articulated exactly like the wonderful Billy Connolly but I've often wondered; wouldn't it be great if we could get some introverts into power? That could be pretty good. People that think before they act, think before they speak. That would be great. Anyway, alright,  

 thank you for sharing the history of the use of elephants in Thailand. Can you talk a little bit to how the attitude has changed in about the past 15 years in regards to tourists and how they want to interact with elephants, and what decisions some elephant camps are making in order to be more ethical. 

Russell: From what we've seen on our side, based on who Louise and I are, unfortunately. Nobody wants to let us come anywhere near their project. We speak to so many tourists. So many people message us. We speak to people at the tours every single day, and ask them what they were looking for. People want to see something ethical. Some people are a little bit more motivated to scratch underneath the surface of what's ethical and what's not. Some people just prefer to be told it's ethical and then that's good for them, regardless of if it is or not. But on the whole, what we see is that a lot more people go to different kinds of projects, bathing and everything, and told it was ethical and told this was right and this was right and the elephants loved this and they loved that. But they're left with a little bit of a funny taste in the mouth. And then they come to see us and go, 'Ah, I get it,' because we make it about the elephant, not about the people, and I think a lot of people do genuinely want to see that kind of thing. But they're not really giving either one the opportunity or the people who are doing it are giving them the information and just very good at selling. But that's from a tourist side. We're seeing some really good response. We've got a lot more from Eastern Europe, a lot of Romania, Poland, Russian customers, Ukrainian customers. Chinese, Taiwan, Japanese, countries that a few years ago, you'd never imagine would want to come and just see elephant. 

Brighde: Yes.  

Russell: Yeah. But the younger generation in many countries, even in China. You look at what's going on with the dog meat trade in some certain countries as well, and the uproar with the kids, the younger generations, they're leading the way on social media when it comes to ethical, experiences with animals, and how things are done. Intellectually it is quite interesting. From what we were told, I don't know, if this is true or not, to be honest with you. But it was something to do with a panda that died in Thailand, whether it was in Thailand or not, but there was an uproar in China and they'd started to put videos on the screens about not riding elephants at the airport. I don't know how true this was, but we heard it from so many different people that had come through some of the Chinese airports. So I can only assume that it may have been something random, but we do know that based on the numbers of the type of people that come to see us, there's a genuine urge to actually see something natural, good for the animal, and people are willing now to actually dig a little bit deeper on the internet to get to where they want to be.  

 Yeah. That's fantastic. I really feel, and maybe I was just in my own little echo chamber, but I am very interested in animal rights and ethical travel and things like that. But I felt In the past 15 years or so, initiated by the work of Elephant Nature Park in Chiang Mai. They had done quite a lot of great work in terms of educating people on this and had quite a lot of success. So hopefully that is true and that people are making smarter decisions and digging a little bit deeper, and really considering what's behind the act of elephant riding. Yeah.  

Russell: Without Lek and her team at Elephant Nature Park, we wouldn't be doing this really. She led the way. She's been phenomenal for animal welfare and elephant welfare in Thailand, and pushing this kind of, kinder approach to elephants, and so she should be commended incredibly highly for the work that she's done over the years, and unfortunately she's going through quite a rough patch at the moment with, obviously, the massive flooding of Elephant Nature Park that we're aware of, and sad to see. But yeah, they've really pushed things forward which has been fantastic. Yeah. 

Brighde: Amazing. All right. Then let's talk about how you decided to open up your own sanctuary, and of course, you have to have travelers there to support these animals while they're living with you for the rest of their lives. It's an absolutely huge commitment to make. Can you talk a little bit about what helped you make the decision to open something by yourselves or with your business partner, and what was that process like? 

 They started a few years ago. We've known our business partner for a few years, and with our success in the past, he wanted to do something like that. And we'd spoken to him a number of times. We've got friends who know him. The loveliest man. Phenomenal with elephants. Literally mind blowingly amazing with elephants. Just, he's such a nice, calm man. He rescues dogs, and he's amazing with the kids, and he's just like the perfect guy to do business with, and phenomenally experienced with elephants. He knows what to do when it comes to the health of elephants. Just being around them, just how to manage elephants in an environment, it's just phenomenal. And we've been successful in a number of places. We've taken our first one to number one in Phuket. The second one we did, we took to number one as well. But we were doing it for other people and fundamentally, we didn't have full control. We didn't have full control over what we wanted to achieve with the elephants, and we always felt like we were trying to do something with your hands tied behind your back. It was like, we knew what we wanted to achieve. We knew what the land wanted to look like. We knew how we wanted to approach customers, and the tours, and how we wanted the elephants to be put forward first, and that we're doing it with other people. I'll be honest, we were looking for land. Louise and I were looking, we looked all over Phuket. We went up every single hill in the 4x4, every single mountain, every back road. We got so sick of trying to find land that we thought there was nothing left. We actually looked at some in Phang Nga and Khao Lak, and trying to figure out could we get enough customers to sustain an elephant project through the quiet season in places outside of Phuket. And then, after saving, we were saving non-stop, month after month, because we needed a lot of money to set this up. But then, just literally out of thin air, we got a call saying there's a piece of land here, do you want to come and look at it? We were like, perfect, that's what we want. We want elephant land, we want forest land for the elephants, and just let's go and have a look. And we walked in, and we just couldn't believe what we were seeing. We were seeing all this ground water coming up from everywhere. All this like spring water coming through, and it was an overgrown fruit plantation. We carried on walking all the way through, and beautiful views and it was silent because you can't hear the roads because there's no air traffic going overhead. You can hear insects and birds and there's nothing else. And then as we got further to the top of the land, we just came around the corner, and there's these two old fishing ponds at the very top, in the top of the forest. And we just shook our heads and were like, 'Is this really for rent? Can we actually get this land? Is somebody playing a joke on us?' We'd seen so many pieces of land that you think, 'Oh my God, this is amazing.' And then the land owner, you don't want to deal with or you see this piece of land that's amazing, but you're not allowed to use the water on the land. Some pieces of land you just don't want to get involved in, and so this was just like, 'Yeah. Oh my God.' And it came out of the blue. We were helping a different project at the time and we were carrying on saving as we had done for a long time. And then we just went, too good to turn away. We just went all in and we did everything cheap. So everything we made out of bamboo. Renovated some old buildings that were there. Knocked down walls, painted inside when it was raining, fixed the roof when the rain stopped, and it was a crazy few months to try and open. Luckily we had a couple of good clients that trusted us over the years that we've been working with for eight years. Some, a couple of them, that always said they'd follow us everywhere we went. Because they know our reputation, they know our work. They've got us through the first few months. So it wasn't quite as scary. Don't get me wrong. It was scary, because you've got all these staff as well. You've got the elephants you've got to feed. So we started with four elephants. And then in March we brought in two more. We rescued two more. So we've had six since then. But the jumping costs from four to six is quite at the back end of dry season, especially when the food becomes more scarce, the water's not there. So even this, your pineapple grass, your grasses, your staple foods, which you get for elephants. The water content is not inside the food either. So it's drier. So you can see why some projects struggle when it comes to the dry season in Phuket, because it's so hard to get quality food. But yeah, just going back to the project, we've just seen since April, phenomenal response from people that have been looking for something, like what we do. Louise and I were talking today about it, we just can't believe it, to be honest with you. We were terrified at this time of year, because of the implications of no customers and massive overheads for elephants. We've just seen a phenomenal response and people have been so kind, turning up when it's been literally, hurricane style rain coming in sideways into the forest. It literally, it was like being in a washing machine. It was crazy weather and flooding everywhere and people were still turning up with big, thick macks on and walking boots, and we're just like, expecting everyone to cancel and everyone's still turning up in this thing. Just amazing. Yeah, it's just been phenomenal. Phenomenal response to what we've done. Yeah, we're so happy. It just shows we're on the right path. That people do want to see what we want to show.  

Brighde: Congratulations. That's incredible. Can you talk a little bit more about the model that you have set up, because by the sounds of it, you have rescued elephants that have been retired from like the elephant riding industry, and you have these elephants now, but in order to support them and to support yourselves, and everything, you have a model where, instead of relying on donations, you are having travelers who come to Phuket. For those that don't know, Phuket is a very big tourist destination. People are coming and having an experience at Hidden Forest that; then the entry fee, and I guess, any other extras will then go to support the elephants.  

Russell: As a business you can't bring tourists into the foundation environment, a charity environment because you're not allowed to earn the normal money when you're a charity. It's all supposed to be donations. So we rely 100 percent on customers walking through our front doors, wanting to see what we do. So the model is fairly simple. We've got a gift shop which is; this is Louise's territory. She's got a background in fashion, and a phenomenal environment which she's going to sell. So all the money from the gift shop goes into feeding the elephants. So we wanted to ensure that we had some things there that were not your traditional gift shop things from Thailand, but you can buy everywhere else. We wanted elephant focused products, jewelry, rings, earrings, necklaces, things. Bags, t shirts, obviously, which all goes to the elephants. But fundamentally, the way we've done it is, slow, peaceful, and make it about the elephants first as opposed to trying to cram things in to keep customers entertained. We believe that people come on holiday for a holiday, and you don't want to be rushed around when you see an elephant for the first time. So for us, it was the simplest thing in the universe, we just do it slow. And we think that it's resonated with people because everyone seems to be rushing around these days. Life is crazy. Just get stuck in traffic, shout at a lot of people, get to work, get fed up with work, get home, shout at more people, watch TV, everyone's shouting at each other on TV as well, and just basically end up grumpy. You come on holiday to relax and all of a sudden you're being shoved around doing loads of things. And for us, it's always been about elephants. So if you want to come and see elephants, you don't need to do all this stuff. Our main focus is just elephants. We're going to be building a little house at the moment, which is getting bigger than it should be, but because we've got a cat. But aside from that, aside from a few cats, it's elephant focused. But as I was saying, a hundred percent of the money, we have a sponsor, an elephant program on the website, but it's not a donation. It helps to go along with food.  

 Can you share the story of one of the elephants and how that elephant came to be at Hidden Forest?  

Russell: There are two last rescues. Sujai and Wasana. Sujai is a 60 year old elephant, and she was in a legal, not illegal, legal logging environment. So logging was banned for mainly your teak, and your big trees, and your things that were holding the land together. Small trees like rubber trees, and smaller versions, that wasn't completely off limits because they still use elephants around for the smaller variety. Sujai, a 60 year old, skinny, underweight elephant, she was so far underweight. She'd had a lot of abuse over the years. Dead open wounds on the back of her legs. She's got impact marks on her, big swellings around the back of her eyes. Yeah, just a really sad case. We were looking at Wassana because we knew about Wassana for a while, and we wanted a friend for Nong Phi. Nong Phi was one of our first elephants. She's a sweet elephant, and she was getting a bit lonely, and she was a bit scared of the other elephants. She was quite a nervy, bothered elephant. Our business partner told us about Wasana and said she'd be an awesome elephant to get in, and brought her in. We were just going to use our heart instead of our head, and basically brought her in. And she arrived, and completely understandably, she was super cranky. She was vastly underweight. She was so hungry. She was hitting out. We just had to be very slow and steady with her. The same as you do with all elephants, you can't throw them together and expect them to get along just because they're an elephant. But she's been with us now since March, and she's put loads of weight on. The back of her legs are all healed up now, but she's still quite uncomfortable on the back of her legs. She's a real cutie, and a lot of people fall in love with her when they see her because she's a very small elephant. She's only about five foot ten at the shoulder. She's a really dinky elephant. Yeah, she's a really small elephant. For her to be logging in the first place at 60 years old, and it's such a small elephant, is a little bit baffling. She doesn't go in the water very often. She did go in the water probably about six weeks ago now, that's how long it's been since she's been in. When they go in the water and they realize that they're not going anywhere else, they literally smash the water like crazy with the trunk. We've got a few videos on our social media of a few of our elephants going crazy in the water, and it's usually for the first time that they actually feel relaxed and safe and happy. But she literally, she goes into the forest behind our ponds at the top of our land. She goes into the forest, hanging around, trying to push trees over, just basically doing what elephants do, and then she just decided one day; she just came all the way back down. Got in the water. Splashed around. Went absolutely crazy. Got out the water like nothing that happened, went straight back up to the forest, we're just like,' Okay. There you go.' So she doesn't mind the water, but she very rarely goes in. She prefers to head straight for the mud and cover herself from from head to toe. Yeah, she's gorgeous.  

Brighde: It sounds like a cat doing a zoomie. All of a sudden they just lose it. Just go a little bit out of character,. And then they're just back to super zen.  

Russell: We like to say that we think that is their true character when they get a little bit crazy like that because can you imagine being in a controlled environment for the whole of your life, never been allowed to make a decision for yourself, and then all of a sudden you've got this freedom to actually, 'Oh, I can do that. Can I? And I can kick that log around, I can jump in the water myself, I can throw mud on, nobody's going to stop me doing it. I can pull that tree there,' and it must be exhilarating to be such an intelligent, phenomenally advanced animal, that all of a sudden can start to be like that animal. It must be the most phenomenal feeling of freedom, to be able to actually just be, and it's really nice to watch them develop into that and start to show these characteristics that they might have had when they were younger. Galboon, our big dominant female, she's an absolute, she's a beast. She's a stunning big elephant, but she's got a very big personality as well. So you have to be mindful of her personality, and the scarring on her body tells you exactly what kind of life she's had before. Just like dogs and cats and any animal rescue, they come with heavy amounts of forms of PTSD, and with an elephant, it's just three and a half, four times, three times in weight with that kind of damage to the brain. So you've got to be really slow and mindful about how you manage it. 

Brighde: I can't wait to meet your residents. Russell, I am so excited about coming to you in February and meeting all of the residents of Hidden Forest with our wonderful group. I'm sure people listening to this are not necessarily going to be joining us in February, but I really do want them to know about how they can come and see elephants at Hidden Forest. Can you explain how people can connect with you online? See the work that you're doing online, and then also if anyone happens to be listening to this, that's in Phuket at the moment, they might find you and book an elephant experience with Hidden Forest. 

Russell: The website is hiddenforestelephantreserve.com. Bookings direct go all to us, so we don't have to pay commissions to anyone else, which is good for our elephants. We've got social media channels. We're on YouTube. Hidden Forest Elephant Reserve at YouTube. TikTok, I did a TikTok as well. Enough said about that, but that's Hidden Forest Phuket is the handle for that. And then Facebook and Instagram, we've got Hidden Forest Elephant Reserve on both of those channels. Nowhere else, because I'm not going to have time in the day to actually do any more than that, but so yeah. So we're on Google listing. We're in the south of Phuket. We do return transport. We make it very easy for people to get to us. The booking process on the website is super simple. You can pay, you don't need an account. You can pay with PayPal or Stripe with whatever card you want. I think AMEX, it doesn't like too much. But everything else, yeah, it's a very simple booking system and that's how you can find us. Oh, we're open six days a week, but not Sunday. 

Brighde: Perfect. Fantastic. Thank you, Russell, so much for being on the podcast yet again. I'm super excited to come to meet you in person in February.  

Russell: Thank you.  

We are looking forward to seeing you all.