The First Plant-Forward Safari Lodge in Africa | Helene Sinisterra

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Today we have a truly exciting episode lined up. We’re heading to the heart of South Africa’s Greater Kruger Park region to explore an innovative wellness lodge that’s redefining the safari experience.

Joining us is Helene, the Marketing Manager of Sashwa River of Stars, a brand-new retreat that seamlessly blends luxury, sustainability, and wellness with an immersive wildlife experience. Opened in December 2024, Sashwa offers more than just stunning views and incredible wildlife encounters—it’s a space designed to promote conservation, community impact, and mindful travel.

In our conversation, Helene shares the inspiring vision behind Sashwa, the founder’s commitment to conservation, and how their vegan menu, wellness offerings, and unique safari experiences set this lodge apart. From guided walking safaris to their permaculture garden and sound safaris, there’s a lot to discover about this one-of-a-kind destination.

So whether you’re a seasoned traveler, a wellness enthusiast, or someone looking for a meaningful way to experience Africa’s wildlife, this episode is for you. Let’s dive in!

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Transcript

Brighde: Hello, Helene, welcome to the World Vegan Travel Podcast.


Hi 
Helene: Brighde, thank you.



Brighde: I am so thrilled to have you on the podcast. We've been talking about this for like, maybe, three years, and I'm really pleased to have you on to talk about this incredible new project that you work as the marketing manager on, which is the creation of a new wellness lodge in the Greater Kruger Park area. And before we talk about what this actual lodge is, can you maybe just give a very brief overview of what it is, and then maybe talk about how you got to this point? Because the story is absolutely fascinating.



Helene: Sure Brighde. As you say, it's quite a long story, but Sashwa River of Stars is a luxury safari retreat in Greater Kruger on our own private game reserve. We are wellness focused, but we have the safari aspect as well, and we have, as I'll talk about just now, a big aspect, is our impact and social enterprise side of the whole business.Sashwa has been a really long time in the making. It started off with our founder, Peter Eastwood, who sold up his businesses, and moved to South Africa to pursue his lifelong passion in conservation. And with this, his main dream was to open up a non-profit community education camp in the Greater Kruger region. So from there he created Koru Camp. I think he's actually been on your podcast before possibly even speaking about this.



Brighde: I didn't want to interrupt you. Peter Eastwood did come on the podcast, I want to say a couple of years ago now, to talk a little bit about Koru. The main focus was his sort of rewilding projects and conservation in Africa, but we did touch on Koru Camp. 



Helene: Yeah, so Koru Camp is a non-profit community education camp. The main goal was to re-include the local communities into the areas that they have been really separated from, which is their natural heritage. It is really important, especially in anti-poaching, and conservation for the local communities to be involved, get to be included, get to experience the African wilderness and wildlife, and grow that kind of love and desire to actually want to be involved in protecting our precious heritage. So from there, Koru Camp was built and has been running for about three years now. It has been really successful. They've had hundreds of camps. Thousands of youth and grandmothers come in and get to experience a safari pretty much. So, on the beautiful land that Koru camp is, which is in Greater Kruger on a beautiful area along the riverfront. There came about the opportunity to open a lodge in that space, and Peter had been thinking for quite a while now, how can we create a kind of sustainable funding to keep Koru Camp going? It just seemed like the perfect opportunity to open up a lodge, that the profits would then be circulated within this circular economy and be able to support Koru Camp, as well as then provide a more long term solution for the children who are being introduced into this kind of industry, to be able to have training and do internships in the future and all of that. Peter and his partner, who is my mom, Adele, started this vision together. My mother Adele is very involved in the retreat and wellness side. She's had her own business.



Brighde: In tourism as well, because of course, you've been our local partners in South Africa, on our South Africa trips for years.



Helene: Yes, exactly. And she has a real passion, as well, for the more retreat and wellness focused side of travel, in her personal life, and in business. So her and Peter together, decided to open more of a retreat center. And it just really aligned with what we wanted to do with Koru. And of course, Peter's work in the vegan activism space. It just made perfect sense. So the dream came together. We just opened this December.



Brighde: Thank you for that background, Helene. I was so thrilled that Seb and I were actually there in, I want to say, November? So, just during the soft opening, I guess. And we have the incredible honor, I think, of being your first international guests there. And, I'm sure I'm going to pepper in some details about my experience when I was there. It was absolutely amazing. It was just so much fun. It's really quite a unique thing that I, honestly, it's still in our mind that we really want to bring a group, to the Greater Kruger area and to incorporate Sashwa. How did you get into the project? Like, you're working in the marketing area for now. What was it that made you want to participate or work on this project?



Helene: So I've been working in marketing for a few years within the travel industry, and when this came about, firstly, it was completely unique. First of its kind. And the marketing industry can be quite, it can be a bit challenging. And for me, I have to work with brands or projects that I'm passionate about. It has a big impact and it's such a beautiful offering to the world, and it's really approaching safaris in a very different way. One of the main values around Sashwa is really being nature led. There's just so many aspects from the sustainability, growing our own food, the team culture, the experiences that are offered, everything is just done with such respect and such reverence to nature. I just had to be involved.



Brighde: I love it. So you position yourself as a plant-forward wellness safari lodge. Could you explain a little bit about plant-forward, wellness, and safari, and sort of the intersection of those things? Because I think that kind of explains a little bit about what makes Sashwa River of Stars, unique in this space.



Helene: Absolutely. So, from the plant-forward side. We are almost fully plant-based, with the exception that we do have some farm eggs on offer for guests who would like them with breakfast. Besides that, our entire menu has been designed around sustainable, local ingredients. We've had the most incredible chef. I think you know Arabella. She's done some catering, done some of the dinners on some of your groups, and she is very passionate about zero waste, incorporating local ingredients, very seasonal. So we have the most beautiful menu that's been designed by her. It's all very delicious, of course, and nourishing, and still fine-dining whilst being very healthy. We have our own permaculture garden on site, and that's a huge aspect of all of this. It was actually one of the very first things that we built, and it's very challenging out in the middle of the bush. I don't think there's anyone else doing it because you're in the middle of a huge amount of wildlife. And so we have our own enclosed, beautiful garden. We're trying to use as many of our own ingredients as possible. At the moment, it's a lot of the fresh greens and all of that, and the edible flowers. So that's on our menu side. And of course, we have our whole wellness offering. We have daily yoga and meditation. A lot of our game drives are more focused on slow, intentional drives, connecting with all the different animals and wildlife that you might see. Just connecting with nature in general as well. We focus more on walks as well. That's a big draw card to be able to actually walk through the wilderness. It's a very immersive and meditative experience in itself. We have a beautiful spa as well. We have spa treatment rooms. 



Brighde: I agree.



Helene: When I went for my first massage, I honestly said it was the best massage I ever had. I was just in such heaven. We don't do fancy facials and all of that. It's very down to earth healing. They just have healing touches. Yeah. Then we have a sauna, and we have a yoga studio, meditation rooms. It's all woven throughout the entire space, and just where the safari aspect comes in. Of course, we are in a Big Five area on a game reserve. The land itself and the space is so peaceful and so healing in and of itself. It is a wellness experience, and just being there and soaking up all the beautiful nature.



Brighde: Many of the rooms are actually located, and have a view of the river. When we stayed there, we had an absolutely lovely room. It was slightly elevated. And then there was like a slope down and there was a grassed area which I think, is just naturally there. I don't think you've created it. And then there's the river and the other side of the river, and there's wooded area. We saw a lot of animals just walking on that grassed area by the river. The three nights, I think, we were there, and I think at that particular time of year, the elephants had moved because of the conditions. They were looking for food in another place, I think. That was what everyone was saying. But I think, depending on the time of year and the conditions, you can get a wide range of animals. Like we saw, I think, vervet monkeys, olive baboons, warthogs, and a myriad of other birds when we were there. It was just when the woodland kingfishers had just arrived, and their song is just so beautiful. There's lots of other animals as well. What could you expect to see from your room?



Helene: Absolutely. As you say, Brighde. The riverfront, it is natural. It's almost like a floodplain that happens just in front. The whole lodge is built, perched along the top of that. And then you have the floodplain below, that beautiful grassy area. And as you say, when I'm always there, the elephants are in front of the lodge, splashing all the time. It's called the Olifants River, which means elephant in the local language. So, right in front, as you saw, there's often a lot of the antelope, the baboons. We've had the lions there constantly through the last few weeks. There's a lion pride that kind of stays in our area. You will often hear them calling. I had, when I was last staying there, I was up very early before everyone else, and I had a male hunting right in front of the lodge. I was standing on the river deck and watched him take down an impala. All on my own. Quickly went, and got everyone else into the car, and we just had to drive like 20 meters outside the gate, round the side and there he was. That was very special. You can expect to see, we are in Greater Kruger, which means that we have open fences to Kruger National Park and all the other private game reserves. That make up the entire Kruger region, which covers around, I want to say, it's about 2. 2 million hectares altogether. So it's a really huge space. Of course, that means that the animals are completely wild and free, and it's not guaranteed that you will see anything. Most commonly, we always have the giraffe, always have the elephants, often have the lions around, warthog, impala, kudu zebra. And lots of bird life, especially when you were there. That's when the migratory birds start to come down when it gets really green and all the beautiful rains start to come in. And that just brings like a whole different, beautiful aspect to the bush.
  



Brighde: Yes. I'd love to go back a little bit and talk about, like the rooms themselves because I was lucky enough to speak with your mom Adele and Peter, a lot over the time that we were there, and of course, we had so many questions. And it was interesting because compared with the safari camps that we stay in, in Botswana, they're not like these tented structures. You actually renovated an existing sort of, maybe, I want to say, unused dilapidated resort. So you built off an existing footprint that was there, and the rooms are more like a conventional hotel room rather than a camp. Like, for example, there's some air-conditioning in there, right? 



Helene: The room structures were already there when we moved in. It wasn't completely dilapidated, but it was pretty much an abandoned lodge. And some of the buildings were there, and we wanted to be ecologically friendly. We didn't want to have to bash everything down, start over. So we decided to do the best that we could with what was already there, which means that the rooms are all entirely unique. There are ten rooms in total, ten suites, and they all are slightly different. They all have a different shape. Different special elements to them. They all do have air-conditioning and they are solid structures, not safari tents. You can find your own yoga mat, a meditation cushion, hospitality stations, and depending on the category of room that you choose, you will either, it will vary slightly. But we have garden rooms and then the ones that are on the riverfront.



Brighde: Yes, with these incredible, the one that we stayed in, with this lovely balcony with a swing chair on there. It's just absolutely lovely. And something that's interesting about Sashwa, is that it is completely fenced. Please correct me, but you can wander around the camp at any time. It's not like Botswana, where at night time you have to be escorted back to the room, correct?



Helene: The actual space is, I think I want to say, six hectares actually, that's fenced in, which is really lovely. And especially for being more of a wellness retreat focused space, you want to be able to move around. So there's even a little walk you can do around the space for you to be able to go to the pool, the spa, and the wholeness center without needing to be escorted. And we are in the process of building a little hide over. You can take this nice little walk over the hill, and there'll be a little hide there that you can watch a watering hole as well. And we have little nooks and relaxation spots throughout this fenced area.



Brighde: Okay, great. A question I have is, because the Sashwa River of Stars, is marketing itself not like a full gung-ho sort of safari experience, which I think really balances itself well. With, for example, if you were coming from far away and you wanted to go to Greater Kruger, you might like to have like the gung-ho experience for a few days, and then maybe chill at Sashwa River of Stars at the end of the trip before you get on your flight home. Could you maybe talk about what a really fantastic two days set of activities that you could have at Sashwa. You would be experiencing like the wellness. A little bit of rest and relaxation. A little bit of doing not very much, and some safari animal adventures as well. What would that sort of itinerary look like? Assuming I wanted to do as much as I could of everything that I could.



Helene: Absolutely. So you'd be able to start off the morning with a safari activity. This will either be going out on a drive through the reserve or doing a walk, which I highly recommend. It's a very special.



Brighde: I did it. It's lovely.



Helene: Yeah. So you would do that. Early morning, we change our schedule a bit depending on summer or winter. So you would do your safari activity in the morning, come back, have a delicious plant-based breakfast. Have a little bit of time and then you might want to participate, and we will always have a yoga class going on. They often include a bit of meditation and breath work either down on the river deck or maybe inside our yoga studio. If you don't want to do that, there's plenty of options within the space. We have a beautiful art studio if you want to be a bit creative. Of course, we have the spa that you could go and experience. Go and sauna or book a beautiful spa treatment. Then we have lunch in our restaurant called Nourish. It overlooks the river. After lunch, we have a few different experiences before going into evening safari. So you could take a tour of the permaculture gardens, could just relax around the pool, and often we have the wildlife passing in front there. So relax, get a drink, have a snack, or we head through to the spa, the art studio. We have a beautiful meditation room if you just want some stillness and quiet. From there we would be heading into an evening safari activity. So usually then we'll be going out on a drive. You'll have beautiful sundowners overlooking the most gorgeous sunset where you can just see the river and the wilderness spread out as far as the eye can see. Often, we will do some kind of special experience out there in the evening as well. Maybe we will do a bit of stargazing, or we will have evening yoga class, or just some silence. And then you will come back and have a delicious gourmet three-course dinner, time around the fire, and that would be it.



Brighde: Sounds lovely. I'd love to ask more about how the meals are structured because I feel like every place does it a little bit differently, and I feel like you do as well. Maybe my experience is a little bit different than what it would be like when you're at full capacity for example. How are the meals set up to give you a little bit of a contrast. When we go to Botswana, it's like very early breakfast, and then morning tea on the safari, and then you come back for this big sort of buffet brunch. You have afternoon tea, which is like finger food, cake, snacks, sundowners, and then a big buffet. But you don't really do the whole buffet thing so much, do you?



Helene: No, not really. We will start off before your safari activity in the morning. There'll be tea and coffee and some kind of delicious biscuits and usually something along the lines of smoothie or some little overnight oats, or chia cups. Something yummy like that. Then, depending on your safari activities, sometimes we'll have a morning coffee stop as well. Sometimes not. You'll come back, and we do a plated breakfast for morning. So there's always a delicious fresh juice on offer, made that morning. Then there's a smoothie on offer as well. And then you have a savory as well as a sweet option for breakfast. And this changes every day. From breakfast, we go on to lunch. Lunch is the one meal that we have more of a buffet style. We have a variety of healthy salads and just more of a buffet spread. Then for our dinner we have a really beautiful three-course plated, more gourmet meal.



Brighde: Yes, and I can attest. It is absolutely delicious. It's really lovely. And, even though it's not connected with exactly what we're saying, I feel like I really want to say this before I neglect to mention it. The decoration and interior design at Sashwa. It's one of the most beautiful that I have ever seen. And another thing that I also want to mention is the curation of the shop as well. I just thought the range of products there was lovely. I didn't end up buying anything because I'm trying not to buy so many things for boring reasons, but I had to really resist because it was just so lovely. The decoration and the thoughtful touches like the artwork and the pillows, and everything, compared with a lot of lodges in South Africa. This is something I know you and I have discussed a lot when we've talked about hotels, is, there's no cowhide rugs, which I love. And just the beautiful fabrics and furnishings that you have incorporated into the property or your designer has. I just could not stop going on and on about it, the whole time I was there.



Helene: Thank you, Brighde. It's something we're really proud of because it really is very different to every other lodge you will find, especially in the area. And it has a lot to do with how we actually created the whole space. It's all been friends and family who've been involved in setting it up. The interior designer is a good friend of ours, and everything has been really meticulously hand-sourced, mostly from local artisans, and there's been such care put into every single thing that has been chosen.



Brighde: Yes.I really invite listeners to go and follow, of course, Sashwa, and also World Vegan Travel on Instagram, because you don't know this, Helene, but I've just got about three or four additional Sashwa River of Stars Instagram reels, that are being edited now, and will be published in the next month, I guess, or so. Like a room tour and the walking safari that we experienced as well. Hopefully listeners will go and check that



Oh, wonderful! 



We talked a little bit about how this is a bit of a unique experience but some people might decide to come to this area to stay at Sashwa and enjoy that wellness aspect, but there's also that gung-ho safari experience. And there's also a ton of other stuff, including the panorama route as well, that I did, and it was amazing. Can you talk about some of the other big draw cards, apart from the wildlife that is possible in the area? 



Helene: Absolutely. As you mentioned, if you want to go and tick off the Big Five and have that whole big safari thing. There's plenty of options in the area before coming for a more relaxing time. Then of course, there is the Blyde River Canyon and the Panoramic Route, which is so beautiful. It is the largest green canyon in the world, actually. There is such a beautiful energy to the space and it is so stunning. There's this wonderful dam between the canyon, I guess. Did you do the boat trip? 



Brighde: We learnt about it, and we were thinking that, yes, we definitely want to include this on a Greater Kruger World Vegan Travel Trip.



Helene: It is so wonderful, and there is so much to do just in that area itself. There's the Panoramic Route that you drive through, with the most beautiful viewpoints. There's God’s Window. You can take this wonderful elevator down the canyon, pretty much.



Brighde: The Graskop Gorge?



 Yes. We did the Cliffside walk, all harnessed in, which was super fun. 



Helene: It's wonderful. I could spend days there. There's the most beautiful hikes to the most gorgeous waterfalls. And you just feel like you're transported into a completely different environment, from being just one hour down in the middle of the wilderness, which is really incredible. Of course, there's the actual Kruger National Park to go and visit, which is a fun experience in itself. Those are what I would say is the main highlights of the area.



Brighde: Yeah. I agree. There is so much more to this area than just seeing the Big Five. The scenery is incredible. The cultural heritage. And maybe that's a question that I would like to ask you. Maybe you can speak to this, is, you've already talked about how Koru Camp is there. And this is of course a really important project, but how could travelers experience that heritage that Koru Camp is trying to preserve?



Helene: Absolutely. So, of course, we have the camps going on at Koru, and if we have certain groups coming, especially people who are sponsoring a camp or want to be more involved in supporting Koru, we will incorporate a visit to the camp. And you can get to experience that. We've organized certain events around that. It's about an hour and a half from where we are, is where the local communities are, and there are a variety of different projects and places you can visit. Projects you can visit in ways that you can get involved and experience a little bit more of the local Shangaan community. Meals,dances, cultural kind of events.



Brighde: There's one activity that we didn't mention yet, that unfortunately we didn't get to experience. I believe the providers of this activity were busy, but maybe you can talk to this. A sound safari, that I think is an additional opportunity, which we would definitely include if we were coming to Sashwa. What is a sound safari?



It 



Helene: is such a magical experience. I could not have imagined before I experienced it for myself. I was lucky enough that I was up there when we got them to come and do a demonstration for us. So it's this wonderful company that have designed this really specialized microphone that they put on the front of the safari vehicle, and everyone gets linked up with these special earphones. And it has the ability of picking up microscopic sounds. You get the experience of immersing and understanding what the wildlife hears. It's like from the little rumbles in the elephant's stomach and all these ways that we just have no idea that the animals are communicating all the time. Even the sounds of the animals eating and tiny little clicks and noises. It was really one of the most incredible experiences. After going back to normal hearing, you just feel like you're missing so much that's out there, and it's such an amazing experience to get to be a part of it, even for a short while.



There's a wonderful presentation I forgot that he does beforehand. He does about an hour's talk and demonstrates the different sounds, especially all the different birds in the dawn chorus, and also explains a little bit about what this communication means, especially amongst the elephants. I won't give it all away, but it is so fascinating.
  



Brighde: I love it. Like I've said several times now, I cannot wait to bring a group to Sashwa River of Stars. One of the big question marks for us when we were thinking about this was, is it going to be big enough for our groups? We need to have a certain number of rooms to make it a little bit worth our while. You have, I think, ten rooms and two sort of facilitator rooms, which of course, Seb and I would take one of the facilitator rooms, right?



Helene: Absolutely. Yes. Facilitator, guide, group leader, rooms. Yeah.



Brighde: Yeah. So it's definitely on the list. 



Helene: So I'm sure that there are a lot of people listening to this, that are thinking about, maybe they can't wait to come with World Vegan Travel, maybe they want to come by themselves, like a more intimate, non-group experience. Could you explain, like, how people get to the camp? The nearest airport. I believe that the airport is becoming an international airport at some time in the near future, which is pretty exciting. And, where it is in location to that. How you would get to the lodge, especially for international visitors that might not have their own car. And also the approximate pricing.



Sure.You would fly into Johannesburg International Airport if you're coming internationally for the time being. We're about a year away from becoming an international airport. So you fly into Johannesburg, and from there you would take a short, direct flight, it's about 40 minutes to Hoedspruit Airport. That is a really cute little bush airport, in the middle of all of these game reserves. 



Brighde: Is it a town, it's not like an airstrip, it's a proper airport, in a town.



Helene: It's a little town, but it's very cute. Sometimes you will have some antelope on the runway. You land right into the experience, but it is a town. It is a proper airport. It's very safe. So you'll land in there, and we will have someone pick you up directly from the airport, and from there we will take a road transfer. You'll be about 20 minutes driving just to get out of the town, and from there we actually enter the game reserve territory. We enter the gates, you can start to see wildlife, but it is about an hour drive through the game reserve to get to Sashwa River of Stars.



Brighde: We saw a ton of elephants on that drive, just to let listeners know.



Helene: The elephants love to welcome everyone. They always welcome me when I arrive. They are like the welcoming committee. Pricing starts from around 500 US dollars per person, sharing per night. And this is all-inclusive. Besides transfers, it includes all meals, all activities, the safari activities, or the daily yoga, as well as beverages.



Brighde: Yes, I think that the shop is of course not included and spa treatments are extra. But if I remember well, I thought the spa treatments were very reasonably priced.



Helene: Yes, they are. And we have a wonderful range. We only use the Painted Wolf organic wines on site, and those are included and support a lovely cause.



Brighde: Yes, South African wine. I'm not a big wine drinker, but, of course, South Africa has incredible wines. Can you explain the advantages and disadvantages about coming at different times of year? I'm sure that you have a high season, a low season in terms of pricing, which probably correlates to South African school holidays, maybe, and weather. Can you explain?



Helene: Our pricing actually stays the same year round, but there are different benefits to our different seasons. We have a very distinct wet and dry season in the Greater Kruger region. Our summertime, going from around November through to April is our more wet season. We don't have ongoing rain every day, but we do have more moody storms sometimes, and it's really beautiful and green. This kind of time brings a lot of the baby animals. The bush is really vibrant. We have a lot of the bird life around at this time of year. The opposite season, from around May through to September or so is our dry season and the bush completely transforms. It is a lot more brown. It's a lot more sparse, but you can see the animals a lot better. You can see further, and it is a bit cooler as well. So it's a great time for walking and really incredibly beautiful, moody sunrises and sunsets.



Brighde: Lovely, I just want to go in every season. And another question that I have is, I'm aware that the Kruger National Park and the Greater Kruger area, unfortunately, is impacted by some poaching effort, but there are also some amazing initiatives out there to try to combat this as well. So, would you be able to speak to those? 



Helene: A lot of organizations that Peter has actually worked with for a very long time, and many of them have their own educational nonprofits that then work with us, with Koru Camp at the same time. We, of course, have our own anti-poaching efforts on our game reserve, but there are quite a few. There's a wonderful one, Elephant's Alive. There's Rhino Revolution. All of these are organizations that we work with directly at Koru Camp.
  



Brighde: When we were doing our safari activities, particularly on our walking safaris. We saw groups of people patrolling for poaching. It's a very difficult problem. So challenging, but there is a lot of really great work being done to protect the animals there.



 I definitely would want any visitors, any travelers that come on this trip to somehow integrate that into the visit. Can you speak to that?



Helene: They are absolutely incredible. The Black Mambas are an all women anti-poaching group in the Kruger region. They just do the most incredible work. I highly recommend going and have a look at what they're doing. There's also an amazing movie that came out recently, it's called Rhino Man, and it talks all about the struggles specifically in our area around rhino poaching. I believe Black Mambas are somewhere in there, and Peter was also involved in this documentary.
  



Brighde: Helene, I'm so pleased to have finally had you come on the podcast after so many years, and for listeners to learn about this amazing place. As the marketing manager, I know that you have a lot of efforts that you are putting out there so that people learn about Sashwa River of Stars. Would you please explain to listeners the best way that people can find out, see inside the rooms, learn about your updates. The organized retreats that you have going on, which we didn't even touch on, and maybe you've got an email newsletter, and how people can book.



Helene: Absolutely. Yes. Thank you. It's been so great to finally do this. So you can find everything on our website, Sashwa. org. You will be able to see our upcoming retreats there. You can book directly through our website as well. You can also find us on social media, Facebook, Sashwa River of Stars, Instagram, Sashwa, and we also have a newsletter. You can sign up through our website.



Brighde: I love it. I encourage listeners to do all of those things so that they can keep an eye on the developments because, you know, when I went in November there was still a lot of new things that you were planning, that you had in the works. And I'm sure in the upcoming years, that will continue to be the case. So people will definitely want to keep an eye on everything that you've got going on. Helene, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. I really appreciate it. Thank you.



Thank 



Helene: you, Brighde.