Elephant Conservation in South Africa | A Scientist's Mission | Katie Thompson

Link for the show notes

In today’s episode, I’m speaking with Dr. Katie Thompson, Programme Director for Elephants Alive, a conservation organisation doing deeply important work to protect elephants in the Greater Kruger region and to help reduce human–elephant conflict in ways that support both wildlife and local communities.
This is a thoughtful and hopeful conversation, but it also touches on the reality that conservation work can be complex and sometimes imperfect. Katie herself is vegan, deeply committed to animal protection, and brings so much care, intelligence, and compassion to this work. I’d really invite you to listen with curiosity and openness as we explore what it means to protect elephants, ecosystems, and the people living alongside them.
There are a lot of places, organisations, and resources mentioned in this episode, so do check the show notes and the blog post for all the details. 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Hello Katie and welcome to The World Vegan Travel Podcast. 

Thank you so much. How are you today? 

I am doing so well, all the better for talking to you and learning more about the amazing work that you are doing to protect elephants in the Greater Kruger area. Katie, would you mind telling us, just give us, before we get into the nitty gritty of all of the work that you do, can you just let us know like a summary of what it is that you do in the animal protection space? 

Okay. Where should we start? So yeah, my role at the moment, is working for an elephant conservation charity. So as you can hear my voice, I'm actually British. I'm from the UK. So my history is a lot of conservation within the UK, within Europe, and I've traveled a lot with that as well. But my heart is in Africa where all the incredible species are, and I've always wanted to work with African wildlife, which is why I chose to work with elephants, as well. [00:01:00] I did a PhD in elephant conservation. Again, that was just where my heart was pulling me. And I do a lot of work in the UK too, for different conservation organizations, which is all feeding from my passion for animals since a young age. 

Was there a particular spark that made you become interested in elephants particularly, or Africa, or doing this kind of work? 

So, when I was little, it was always watching wildlife TV programs, and I was just like, this is another world. This looks incredible. I just knew I had to get there to understand and see it for myself. And then when I went for my first time in Tanzania, I did Kilimanjaro, the second year of university, as you do at 19 years old. 

And my parents were terrified, but I was just like, this place just holds so much magic but the connection to elephants really came when I did a two month conservation internship. That was 2016, 10 years ago. [00:02:00] I learned about elephants in their ecosystem, so I dive deeper and I learned about the roles that they play, and I was just absolutely hypnotized by all the different things that they bring to the environment. They help lots of different species, plants and animals, and I was just like this giant vegan animal, is the most incredible thing that I've ever seen, and I've just kind of spiraled with that. because it's not just elephants we are protecting, it's a whole ecosystem, and it really just set my heart on fire. 

Oh, I love it. Would you mind sharing a couple of things that was just so surprising to you about elephants and their place in the environment?  

Absolutely. I think, this is probably, well-known knowledge now, but elephants are afraid of bees. So I was fascinated and I went down this deep rabbit hole because I love research, I love academia. I love finding out all the different connections and reasons, but I just found it fascinating that this animal could be afraid of bees. Now, we can actually use bees to deter elephants, but [00:03:00] produce a market chain of honey for like local communities. 

Right. 

And that just, yeah, the whole chain of events fascinated me. I think, another thing, would be the distance that they move. So it is insane, the amount of movement they can do, and that can be in a day. I think, I read it was like 65 kilometers in a day. A movement of 

Wow. 

one elephant. It's just the most incredible thing. 

Yeah,this is just what makes it so, so sad when you see elephants in small enclosures, or even in safari parks, they're just being limited so much. And when you see elephants in the wild, just congregating in groups of hundreds and hundreds. Sometimes, they all sort of come together from kilometers away. It's absolutely amazing to witness. 

Yeah, and these are just things that we know, so far. Like we are still discovering so much about elephants and lots of other species, as well. To know that we just tapping the surface with these incredible sentient animals. Their knowledge that they share. They know so much more than we do. [00:04:00] I was just looking, recently, for one of my jobs, I had to look at a blind elephant and her movement in the floods in South Africa.  

Oh.  

And she moved away from the river within days before the flooding events happened. I'm like, 'How does she know.' So there's just so much we can learn. Yeah. 

We think it's to do with seismic understanding, but again, it's all just theory at the moment. It's just a constant learning and their role in the environment has just always been a fascination to me. 

What are the main issues facing elephants, and maybe, humans as well, for living together. It's a really complex issue. And I know, in the past, personally, I have jumped to conclusions with this. It's only since I've been going to Africa quite a lot and talking with people, that I feel like I've got a bit of a better understanding. So maybe, you can help our listeners understand the issues a little more? 

Yeah. Brilliant. I think, there's some really key issues that really stand out to me. Illegal wildlife trade is a huge thing. We [00:05:00] don't really do that within our organization, but lots of different local organizations around us, actually, do a lot of work in the illegal wildlife trade, and I think it's so important. It's just such a horrible thing. Another thing, is what was massive, we work on a lot, is human wildlife conflict. So within South Africa, elephants are in fence reserves because that's the way that elephants have basically lived for a long time in South Africa. And these are ranging in different small reserves, large reserves, and they are technically fenced in. However, they can do their normal kind of elephant behavior. There's a lot of research that's been going on with smaller reserves and carrying capacity. There's a lot that has been happening in South Africa. However, when you start talking about borders and different communities of elephants or groups of elephants, and how they move, that's when any conflict occurs. Elephants move huge distances and can move up to, I think, 65 kilometers a day. They are obviously, going to [00:06:00] come in contact with humans. We are just taking over so many areas, and I think we think of it as our own, whereas these are native pathways that elephants have known for generations. It's knowledge that has passed down from so many generations, and elephants are just continuing their native pathways. However, they come into conflict with humans when they try and do their natural migrations, their natural movements. And that's a huge, huge problem because that becomes a human problem that we try and deter. We get this perception that elephants are really bad. They come into destroy, they come into raid their crops when actually, a lot of the time, it's movement because it's their native pathways. 

We also 

found an understanding that elephants might actually take crops because they have some nutrient deficiencies. So that's a new science research that's happened. Elephants are actually, selectively foraging because they're not getting enough in their environment due to many different weather situations but it's a really complex issue. [00:07:00] What we do at Elephants Alive, is working with communities. So we really understand what they need, and we can try and mitigate and work with them to change that perception. We really try and change that mindset, but also bring in lots of holistic ways that can actually benefit a community to deter an elephant rather than just outright putting up the fences or shooting. For me, the biggest issue is human wildlife conflict and seeing it firsthand and living it. 

I believe, that compared with many of the surrounding countries, South Africa is relatively densely populated compared with maybe, Namibia and Botswana. And listeners may also know that it's also a country, that even though you've got glitzy Cape Town, and you do have quite a lot of rich people, especially in the cities, there are also a lot of subsistence farmers who are barely making a living, and a huge amount of unemployment, as well. It can even be dangerous for family members to be [00:08:00] outside when there are elephants around. Is that accurate to say? 

Absolutely. Yeah. So like you say, it's usually the small communities that are really, toughly affected by this. And like you say, with South Africa, it's a really complex issue because you got Cape Town with lots of money, other areas that have lots of money. But these smaller communities who are subsistence farmers, who have nothing else apart from what they grow, are massively affected, and they don't get the trickle down of money to support that. So of course, like that's going to make them defensive and protective and you can understand why. But if they had the knowledge and the understanding of how they could protect and also protect a species, and why that's important, it's again, that mindset shift to be able to do that. But like you say, it's a massive country. The scale of that is huge. And then you've got cross border elephants. Like with Kruger at the moment, elephants are moving out of Kruger into Mozambique. We've actually moved some back to Mozambique recently. 

Oh, really? 

Yeah. They cross borders, and then they technically need to be a Mozambique, so we had to move them back [00:09:00] before, again, they get affected by any farmers. So there's lots and lots of complexities, and there's small charities like us who are doing our absolute best. But the scale of it is sometimes very overwhelming. We try and work with others and we try and engage with that, but sometimes it can feel like a really daunting just with the scale of it. 

Yeah. Yes. I mean, it's very easy to, I think a lot of people have a tendency to sort of blame certain governments or people for not doing enoughto conserve these incredible species that we all love. But, there's not a lot of resources. These countries are sometimes, quite poor and they have the best of the intentions and there sometimes they have to make decisions that, maybe, they would rather not have to make, just to be able to do a little bit. Personally, I've become a lot more compassionate and understanding, and presume positive intentions from governments in places like this, because I do think, they do love these animals and they [00:10:00] see so many benefits to them, and even from the animal's perspective. But,they have to make very difficult decisions with very few resources, and even our rich countries are not very good at it. Exactly. Yeah. It's so true. 

Yes. 

And like you're saying, when you've been there and you understand the scale of it, it's just, it's very hard to describe Africa to people unless they've lived it or been there or experienced it.  

Yes. I'd love to talk to you about the kinds of research-based projects, evidence-based projects that Elephants Alive is working on. But you did allude to the flooding that's happened recently. I've been hearing a lot about this because we just putting together a trip to Greater Kruger right now, and Greater Kruger is where you are located. There's been a quite extreme weather event that has really had a huge impact on your organization and everything around. Could you tell us about that? 

Absolutely. [00:11:00] Yes. So it was the start of January. So it's our wet season, which is our summer. I always get the confused, because again, British, I always think it's going to be the other way around. So you do expect a lot of rainfall, that's very normal. But we were getting reports in and saying that the Olifants River, which is where we are based, runs through Kruger, was just a torrent and rising by 20 centimeters a day. And that was just the most crazy amount of rainfall. 

So we were monitoring it and monitoring it, and then we had to evacuate everybody. We had to make sure everybody was safe away from the river. We had to, obviously, work with locals. We've got some of the organizations we work with, and we were just basically, on emergency response to get people out of the area because where we stay on the chalets is right next to the river. 

So we just had to make sure that everybody was safe. We have a hub there, which is where we do all our office work, but also we've got all our labs, our samples because as you say, like we're science-based, and it was like, we need to protect [00:12:00] this. But that unfortunately, got very damaged in the flooding, as well as all the roads around there. Roads became rivers, and it's just crazy, unprecedented. But we've heard of a lot more people who have been worsely hit. We are actually in recovery mode now. 

I think, as of last week, people are back on the base, which is great and we can start recovery, but it's always a challenge and people in Africa are just the most resilient, adaptive people you'll ever meet. And they will fight it. We'll only survive if we work together with other communities, with the people in Kruger becauseit's just a massive loss. 

Well, thank you for sharing that. Yes. That's something that I noticed during our Greater Kruger Scout, is just how everyone does seem to support each other. First of all, South African people are incredibly friendly. They're so welcoming. I loved seeing that, and just how much all of the different organizations support each other and our good neighbors, of course. Your good neighbors with Black Mambas, as well, which is an organization that we also know a little bit about. [00:13:00] Koru Camp as well, and all of these amazing organizations, and just so resilient. Just amazing. 

Yeah, definitely. It's incredible to see, and like these floods have definitely brought people close together. We had shepherds who monitor our elephants, and the Black Mambas rebuilding roads the other day, and it was just like, I was just getting photos, and it was just so nice to see. 

Yes. 

I've been sharing that as well. So yeah, it's resilience at its best. It really is. 

For listeners that don't know, the Black Mambas are the first female anti-poaching unit. 

They're incredible. 

These wonderful women. Oh my goodness, so much awe for them. It's amazing. Alright, why don't you tell us a little bit about the kinds of evidence-based projects that have shown success to help mitigate this problem of human wildlife conflict or human elephant conflict? 

Yeah, absolutely. So we've tried lots of different methods and I don't think it's ever a one [00:14:00] method approach that works with elephants because they're too clever.They learn quickly. So you have to be very adaptive, which is another mirror to what African people are like, and what we have been doing, is testing for years, different methods of where you can prevent any elephant conflict. So we kind of do it as a holistic approach. We use education, speaking to children and engaging them with all the different reasons why to care about an elephant and try and, again, change the perspective so they can understand why it's worth protecting. So that hopefully trickles down their generation. One of our pillar projects is the Grandmother Program. So we work with what they call 'gogos' out there. And they share their knowledge and their understanding, and it's like a collective with the children and the 'gogos'. We've been working with those for years. Again, it's evidence-based because we're trying to understand how they perceive elephants, and how to change that into something positive but also, what they need, and what we need to do in their environment to improve it. [00:15:00] So again, we've tried lots of different methods. So for example, if a community has an exposed area, where they're growing crops, we don't say just put fences up because that has worked in some cases, but research has shown that it's not the most preventative. And it's also very costly. 

I bet. 

Yeah. And it requires a lot of management. And with extreme events, these can just be taken out very quickly. So we've come up with lots of different ways to prevent elephant conflict. And we are working with lots of different partners. So we work with Save the Elephants, we work with independents, as well because everybody has their own like bucket of knowledge, let's call it. We have got beehive mitigation, so that means that we put beehive fences around where people grow their crops. Sometimes bees don't colonize. So it's a hit and miss. And again, it uses a lot of monitoring. But we've actually proven that with beehives that can deter elephants, and we are using the product to sell honey. So we are training people in the communities [00:16:00] to protect these beehives and actually use it as a market chain. So it gives them that purpose with it, which is incredible. Then we started testing crops. So we started noticing that elephants don't like chili, and in one of our shepherd units, so our people who go out to deter elephants, we make what's called a chili bomb, which is literally just elephant dung with chili in it. And you can throw it at an elephant and it makes no damage at all. It releases the scent and they are afraid of it, so they move away. Sounds dramatic, but it's  

So they  

not. It's just dung. 

connect a human is throwing dung at me. I've had experience with this. I'm off. Like that kind of idea? That's 

brilliant! 

And we also use eggs and we put chili oil in and they hate that. Again, no damage is ever done. They just absolutely hate it. We've tested lots of different plants, which is what I was alluding to with our research. So we work with a company called HERD. 

So they're a group of conservationists again, who work with semi-habituated [00:17:00] elephants. So these aren't wild elephants. They can't go back into the wild. They've been rescued and they live in another reserve in South Africa. They have some contact with humans. So basically, once every day, they come to a wall where people can take photos which is not something that I generally, agree with. However, what they do at HERD is amazing, and we've been doing a lot of research with different types of crops. 

So we test these elephants and see how they react to crops, and that's a paper that we published, I think, last year. And we can now see, okay, elephants hate this species. So with that knowledge, we can use that with our beehive fences and grow these crops around any food. And then that's another resource for the community to sell. 

So again, we want to empower the communities to be self-sufficient and to protect them to know about elephants. And I think one of our other key things are watchtowers. Basically, again, in these communities, it's very open. They don't have any high ground. It's very flat a lot of the time. [00:18:00] So we instigated things called watchtowers, where basically people are in the top watching over and they can deter elephants with flashing lights. They hate it. Flashing lights and a horn, so a loud noise. There's lots of different noises that have been tested, but we have tested ones where it's just like a loud noise and an elephant moves away. Again, doesn't work in all circumstances, but a lot of the time it does. And the people love the watchtowers. They get so empowered by it, they love protecting it, and it becomes their little hub, which is fantastic to see. So it's like a two-tier system and it's a shipping container, and two of them on top of each other. 

And the bottom is storage for all of these crops that they're going to sell. So then it's like a full kind of system, and it's working really well. So we've done three communities in Mozambique, and we've got one in South Africa which I think, you absolutely have to go to. And it's an incredible site, which is just outside Kruger. We've worked with all the different communities there [00:19:00] to implement these things, to train them. And it's just been fantastic to see them, just really take it as theirs, and they're so excited to see us when we come. They're so excited to share what they do, and it's their baby, and it's just amazing to see. 

Oh, thank you so much for talking, for explaining about the work that you do. I didn't realize that you were working in Mozambique. So for listeners who don't know, you've got the Kruger National Park, which directly borders it, and then you've got Greater Kruger, with all of these reserves around that. And there's no fences between Kruger National Park and Greater Kruger. And of course, the animals can go into Mozambique, as well, if they want to. It's all part of this very big area. I was very confused. It took me a really long time to understand Kruger, Greater Kruger, what's the difference. 

I know. It's all the different associated private nature reserves that form that. 

Yes. I think I'm about 80% there. 

Yeah. We work in Mozambique, sorry, just on the last thing on Mozambique, is [00:20:00] because we identified this corridor called the Naamacha Valley, and that's bordering South Africa and Mozambique, and you can see where elephants are moving, and it's a really key area for movement and migration. So we work there to understand their movement. We're doing collaring elephants at the moment, but also working with communities to protect their livelihoods. So yeah, that's the project we've had going on since 2023. 

Oh wow. Amazing. And, where do you hope Elephants Alive will be in 10 years? If you could dream big? 

Okay. Dreaming big. I think we would love to have a market chain set up with all the products that we can sell, which is just incredible that elephants can encourage us to grow unpalatable crops, and basically, just set up a whole market chain that sustains these communities and it all just feeds in. And all these people are educated to understand why elephants are important. That would be a big goal. Yeah. 

Awesome, awesome. [00:21:00] So you've been vegan for quite a few years already, Katie, correct? 

That's right. I've been vegan for five years now. 

Nice. 

I was vegetarian when I was 11, so gosh, that's over 20 years ago. 

Wow. Oh, you're still so young. Oh my goodness. Fabulous. Okay. You mentioned in the introduction, you've traveled quite a lot already, in your life and you've traveled to quite a few places as a vegan. I really want to hear some specific travel experiences that you've had as a vegan that you would like to recommend to our listeners? 

Yeah, 2024 in May, and we're going to do a road trip. The van wasn't done. We were self converting and we drove to La Vimea from the UK, and it was the most incredible experience. They were so welcoming. Us just having a camper van there, because it's not the most easiest town to get around with a massive mini bus. And they were like, yeah, of course you can park it. But, the food, the environment, the people. I literally want to go back. I think about it every day and I [00:22:00] say to my partner sometimes, should we just go there? We've got a van, let's just do it. 

For listeners, it's a 100% vegan hotel, and I think, it was like one of the first. It's certainly the first 100% vegan hotel in Italy. They've been around for more than 10 years now. So, they were definitely one of the first in the world. And not just like a little bed and breakfast. Like a proper hotel with a proper three beautiful meals, and very much a new agey kind of way. Like a wellness with with pools, and spa, and sauna, and yoga, all sorts of lovely things. 

The materials that are made from the building itself. It's all like sustainably sourced. It's very Scandinavian, and it's just, oh, it's just amazing. I would recommend that for anyone. I think they've also got two sister hotels in Italy, so that's on my list in my van when I hopefully get it there. 

I know about them. I love them. There's Paradiso Pure Living, that we just actually [00:23:00] released a podcast episode with Alex, the general manager who's Valeria's son. Valeria, if you might remember, is the owner or manager of La Vimea and Paradiso Pure Living, made the final conversion to go completely vegan about 14 months ago or something like that. It's an even more beautiful setting than where La Vimea is, in my opinion. And then of course, there's Agrivilla i Pini in Tuscany, which is a completely different vibe, but also gorgeous. Yes, you'll love it. 

 That's on my list then. I've got a lot to do. But yeah, for listeners, I would recommend going there a hundred percent. So would be my European recommendation. I'd also recommend Kenya because I've been there as well. I was a bit anxious and I think ,maybe, people who listen, as well, might be a bit anxious to travel to Africa if they're vegan. However, when I was there, I just basically set my dietary requirements in different hotels. So I stayed in [00:24:00] a place called Shompole Wilderness, and again, they were just so welcoming. They just wanted to know everything they could do to help you. And the food was exquisite. It was all just very much raw food. Flavors was incredible. Amazing what you can do when you go to this continent, as well, because you can definitely find vegan options. As well as Kenya, there's actually a really good selection of vegan options in South Africa. Where we are based, is near a little town called Hoedspruit, and there's lots of cafes that offer insane vegan options, and I was tempted to go there every day when I was there. But obviously, that's not the purpose of my work. But the coffees as well. I'm an absolute coffee snob. A good oat milk flat white is my go-to. But yeah, I definitely recommend these places. 

Yeah. The first time that Seb and I ever went to Africa, was to Tanzania. We climbed Kilimanjaro, and did some safari activities, and we were also really surprised about the  

Yeah.  

abundance of vegan food. [00:25:00] I don't know whether this is accurate, but this is the conclusion that we drew, is that in places like Tanzania, they have a lot of tourists from India. And actually, there's a lot of Indian Tanzanian people as well. As a result of that, they know a huge amount about Indian cuisine, which of course, I love. So they were able to very easily make so many curries, and even naan bread, and a ton of Indian food. It was just so easy for them, and it was so delicious. 

So good, isn't it? And I think, compared to South Africa, they love a barbecue, and it's meat. When I was there, again, I had the best corn on the cob there, outside in the bush. It's not anything complex, cuisine wise, but the flavors. You can just feel nature around you. As a vegan, I need to be surrounded by nature, and the whole food experience is so important with that. 

Agreed. Yeah. South Africa, the food scene is off the hook. I think, they have such a huge country in all of [00:26:00] these different climatic zones. They grow everything basically, and importing stuff is easier as well, and that's very different to Botswana. I happen to know that Botswana, the new president or the Prime Minister, he basically said, 'Okay, for potatoes and five or eight other crops, we are going to stop importing them from tomorrow.' Oh, my goodness. This was a few years ago now. So since that announcement, which I think was good in that they wanted to try to encourage their local agricultural industry, but it did mean that a lot of places were scrambling to be able to feed their guests or feed themselves. So I don't think South Africa has many of those kinds of problems. It's just abundance. 

Yeah, I had the best mangoes out there, as well.  

Yes. 

It's just incredible. 

And you've also gone to a festival [00:27:00] that I have not yet been to. And that's the vegan camp out in the UK. How was that? 

You should go. 

Yeah. 

I just need to start with that. You need to cancel all your plans for this summer and go. I went for the first time last year, and it was just a wonderful experience. There's so many different foods you can try. It was all different cuisines. There's a place called the The Hogless Roast. It's amazing. The sauce that they use. It's like bread cob, and then you have all this fake meat in there, but there's also really clean options. So there was amazing Buddha bowls, and I had so much food, it was wonderful. But my highlight would be a company called Plantuguese. They're very new Portuguese food chain. And it was something that was quite different because they had a peri-peri chicken. They had the lion's main steak and pastéis de nata, which I used to love. I've never been able to find the vegan ones. 

Those little egg custardy, a flaky, case, but [00:28:00] small. Like a little tiny pie. 

Oh, my god. They were just wonderful. But yeah, I would recommend them as well, because they've just opened a restaurant in Bristol, which I had to visit last week, and I can say it was out of this world. The food is just incredible. And the festival itself, I'd recommend for the atmosphere. The people you meet there. The talks are just inspiring and I just felt so lifted from being there, and it feels like you are surrounded by all these wonderful people who think the same as you. And it's just really nice. And there's actually, a lot of non-vegans on their way to try veganism, but they don't know the options. They've gone there. I met someone who was saying, they just went there to find what they could eat as a vegan, and they were obviously blown over with the world's biggest vegan festival. But yeah, it's just a great atmosphere, great food, and just wonderful to be around. They changed their venues a couple of times. I think it was Oxfordshire, but yeah, it's in the Southern UK but it's very accessible, very accessible by [00:29:00] train route. So if you are coming from London, you can access by train. 

And I am curious, did you have to bring your own tent and all of those kinds of things? 

So the campervan I mentioned earlier. We had a few rainy days because of course, the British summer has rain. So we had a few meals in the campervan. You can camp there. Bring in your own tent. They have them set up so you can hire them in advance, which I think is really good and accessible. There's local hotels that they recommend. It's very accessible to everybody, which is what I love as well. 

Yes. It's on the list. It's on the list. 

You have to go. 

Katie, I want to thank you so much for being on the podcast. It was lovely to chat with you. 

Before we say goodbye, can you let the listeners know how they can learn more about the work that you are doing, all of the social media handles and how they might support you. 

Yeah. Thank you so much. It is been an absolute pleasure speaking to you. I've had a great time. If you want to follow me and my journey, I am @drkatet, so that's K-A-T-E-T to be confusing. And I mainly [00:30:00] use Instagram. That's my main communication, and I'm trying to communicate with everybody who reaches out to me. For Elephants Alive, it's our handle is @elephantsalive, and we use Instagram and Facebook, and it's the same one used on both platforms, but you can also go to our website. Yeah. 

I love it. Thank you. Thank you so much, Katie. It was lovely to chat. 

Thank you so much.