The REAL Roberta Blevins, MLM survivor Part one

LulaRoe survivor Roberta Blevins talks multi-level marketing and cult environments.

Her podcast, Life After MLM, can be found on your favorite listening platforms.

The LulaRich Documentary from Amazon Prime can we viewed HERE

If you suspect. you are involved in a high-control group and need help to leave, please visit the link HERE for resources and advice.

Transcript

[00:01] Sam: When you think of a cult, you probably think of the over the top religious organizations that recruit people, separate them from their families and maybe even put them into a compound like Branch Davidian in Waco. Back in the 90s, not every cult is quite so obvious. What if I told you that there are organizations that are really common in suburban America that operate an awful lot like cults? Would you be surprised to hear about it? Stay tuned for my next guest, Roberta Blevins, to learn more about this next on Meant for Moxie.

[01:03] Sam: Welcome back to Meant for Moxie, the podcast. I am really excited to have a guest on today who is also from another documentary. I love finding these documentary people and this particular documentary was really close to my heart and a little bit hard to watch. It's called Lula Rich and it's all the down and dirty behind the scenes about the Lula Roe Leggings company. If you haven't seen it, you really should. And today I have Roberta Levins on and she is one of the featured former Hunts. She'll explain what that is and she has her own podcast and this outreach for former MLM multi level marketing members. So thank you for joining me today, Roberta.

[01:53] Roberta: Thank you for having me. What a wonderful introduction.

[01:58] Sam: I'm going to give you like 2 seconds on me. It's going to be more than that and explain why this documentary was mind blowing to me. So I had been involved in direct sales from about 2004 until 2018 when I severed completely. When my second son was born, I retired from my company. I was home full time after about 18 months. I was like, I really need something for me. And there's this brand new company called Seven Women at Home and it was home decor. And I was friends with all these young moms. We were all redoing our houses, but maybe the budget wasn't good enough. So if we could add some accents through this business, that's what we would do. And I did well. I earned trips, I had a little team. But I ended up then with like a start up that never really started up, multilevel marketing company. And then I did recruiting for a designated region for another with luxury clothing. And I did finally get to the point where so many of the things you mentioned in your documentary were like, this seems like a red flag and this seems like a red flag. And this seems like a red flag. So without giving away what you're going to talk about, that's how I came to watch the documentary about Lula and why I'm so fascinated with. I immediately went and found your social media and all this stuff. I was like, what is this? I needed to hear this ten years ago. So can you give us a little bit of your backstory and then how you came to be with little run because that's obviously a whole topic unto itself.

[03:47] Roberta: Yeah, it's the same story, right? I was a new mom and I was feeling very much like I'm just Abby's mom, and I was just my now ex husband's wife. And those are my titles. And I was feeling very much like I'm more than that. I have my own name. I do really vividly remember feeling that way and having that conversation and just really feeling like I needed something for me. And MLM came into my life. My father had passed away and I was very vulnerable from that as well. And the first one that came into my life was it Works. I joined because my cousin was in and I got a better deal for joining than just the products I was going to buy at the party. And so I was like, well, that sounds good. I made a couple of $100 maybe.

[04:28] Sam: Yeah.

[04:29] Roberta: And I spent a few hundred bucks. So at best they broke even, but I probably lost money. I never did the math on that.

[04:35] Sam: And did you lose all the fat that they promised? No, it works with the fat wraps. I've had my share of those. I was not involved, but I did buy them.

[04:43] Roberta: No, I remember vividly putting the wraps on my body and then wrapping myself in Saran Wrap and then putting on spanks and then putting on leggings and then going to sleep so that I would, like, sweat all the fat out. And I remember having to take, like, a picture before and let it hang out, just be, like, supernatural. And then the next day you go into the bathroom in the morning and you're at your lightest weight or whatever, of your basic daily fluctuation and then sort of like, stand up straight and get really good lighting and sort of suck it down and then take your after photo. And I really vividly remember doing that and being like, this kind of seems dishonest, but that's what I was like, okay, no, I didn't lose anything. No, I just had a bunch of neon green and black bullshit in my house. I lasted about three months. And there was weird things that happened to my body after taking their supplements and their things. My gallbladder failed and I had to have my gallbladder out relatively near the time I can't say it was or wasn't, but those are just things that happen around the same time. And I was just like, you know what? I'm done with this. That just seems sort of like scammy and pyramidy, like everybody says, Whatever. But then a year later feeling similar. My daughter was a little bit older. She was at the age where we were actually having playdates, and she was in preschool and things like that. And I had the time that I wanted to do something. I was working out of town a lot and I wanted to bring that home because my daughter was in school, and I wanted to do the PTA thing and not be out of town work thing. And so I was looking for something, and Lularo sort of just showed up. And was it not like, oh, my God, another multi level marketing company? It was literally like I came at it from a business standpoint where I was, like, watching these women go crazy over some of the weirdest stuff I'd ever seen. But it was selling like hotcakes. And I was like, I can sell this. I know people that would buy that. I know people that would buy those clowns. I know people that would buy those squirrels. I could do this. This seems really easy. Like, just have a couple of tubs of leggings in my living room, sell them, get more. It seems very simple in my head, and it's probably normal for a regular person. I just wanted to sell a couple of $100 with the leggings on the side. Like, that's probably what it would look like if you were sourcing your own stuff. So, for me, I was like, Well, I don't know how to source my own stuff. I don't know how to do this. This business does everything for you. They have everything, and they handle the taxes for you and all of that really complicated stuff, which it was only sales tax anyway. It's always bait and switch and lies and lies. So they made it sound really, really attractive, like an actual business in a box, like it was a franchise. But again, knowing what I know now, I know all of this stuff, but also, not a lot of people know the differences between owning your own business in a franchise and different things and an MLM and being a sales rep and being a contracted employee. People don't really know the differences between those. I'm coming to find out when I talk to people. And so that's another crack that MLM exploits, is just people's own ignorance. Because not all of us have MBAs, right?

[08:02] Sam: They want the people who have MBAs. They don't want the people, right?

[08:05] Roberta: They don't want people that know anything. They want everybody to be as clueless and as uneducated as possible because that benefits them the most. And so this company sort of showed up, and I was like, I could do this. And I would join these groups, and I wasn't even buying anything at the time. I didn't even really care about owning anything. I was just really curious about how fast it was selling. And I would join these groups, and I would join these parties. And I remember being working at night and coming home, like, 30 minutes after the party had started, before I can actually look, and so much stuff had already been sold out. I'm like, what? Oh, my gosh, I'm 30 minutes late, and half of it's gone already. So that sort of stuff where I was like, people are really into this. That's what attracted me. I didn't understand that it was like, it works with the teams and any of that until I was already gung ho about wanting to do this.

[08:55] Unknown Speaker: Right.

[08:56] Roberta: So that's another I hate to use the word grooming because of the connotations and associations with it, but that's really what it is. That's a grooming process that MLMs will use. Bait and switch, painting this really idealistic picture where you're like, oh yeah, that's exactly what I want, that's exactly what I need. That answers all of my problems. Yes, but it's and then you get in and you're like, oh, this is not what I signed up for at all. But at that point I had invested so much and I was like, this is what we're going to do and we're going to have this team and people want to join and we're going to do this and I can do this. And I just hit the ground running and you watch and you kind of get a little bit of a glimpse.

[09:35] Sam: About what you did very well.

[09:37] Roberta: Thank you. You did for an MLM, yes. For an MLM, yes. But I made less than I was making in the job that I left to do this. I made less money, ships and the stuff.

[09:52] Sam: So it looked fabulous. So let's pause here for 1 second for anyone listening who does not really understand MLM and why we're sort of interchanging it with direct sales, with pyramid, which is like the bad word way back in ways that we're not supposed to use. But could you explain kind of how that works and talk about it in terms of you're saying you got into this thinking all you were going to do is have leggings, sell leggings, have leggings, sell leggings, didn't realize about the team. Explain a little bit about the structure.

[10:29] Roberta: So a lot of people, when they join an MLM, they think it's going to be more of like a traditional direct sales. And unfortunately, in this day and age, a traditional direct sale doesn't really exist anymore. Unfortunately, they're all really multi level marketing companies and they just use different names. The truth hurts, but that's the truth. And so a lot of people think they're going to get into direct sales. Whereas like a door to door salesman, right, something that it used to be, where you're just buying from me and I'm just the middleman, but that's not how it is. And it really sort of shifted around 1980 when Amway won against the FTC. In 1979, there was a case against them from 75 to 79 about them being a pyramid scheme. And unfortunately, and if you look into it, it really is just really ridiculous, but it was found to not be a pyramid scheme because there was a product involved and there was a very specific set of rules that everybody had to follow. It is called, affectionately, the amway rules, and most MLMs will follow the Amway rules. There's also the Costco rules was like the case before the FTC Amway case. So there's those rules, too. But most MLMs will follow the Amway rules, and it just became legal in 1980. Reagan kind of took office and was very instrumental in pushing MLMs forward as well. The guys from Amway were in his cabinet. And there's a very, like, very sordid history on how all of this happened. And the only reason I even bring this up at all is because that is where everything changed. And direct sales and this MLM pyramid scheme structure sort of merged together to create what it is and what we know it as today. And a lot of people will say it's not a pyramid scheme because it has a product. And that was one of the annual rules, is that there's a product, and that's fine, but the products are inconsequential, and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. And sometimes they're good and sometimes they're bad, and it really doesn't matter because they're just a substitution for money to keep MLMs legal with air quotes. And the only difference between an illegal pyramid scheme and illegal pyramid MLM is the government protects MLMs with these very ridiculous rules that are then self regulated. And I talk to victims constantly, and we find out that self regulation doesn't work. It doesn't work on Wall Street. It doesn't work in MLM self regulation. It just doesn't work. You cannot give the bad guys the ability to police themselves because they won't. It's a racket. It's a mob. That's what it is at this point. So that's my answer, I guess, sort of in this long winded way of the differences. To me personally, with what I know, what I've researched and what I've seen, that is the only difference between those business structures.

[13:39] Sam: Okay? And my experience is, like, there's levels of product you get with your sign up fee, and here you're going to get $500 worth of product for $99 and all your marketing materials and all the rest of this. And they refer to these things as turnkey businesses. And we're going to have training for you, and we're going to have this for you. But really what's making the money is that sign up fee. It's not the selling of the product. It's when somebody else signs up and sells or buys whatever they're supposed to hit for their quotas for things. And that's when the higher levels start making more and more and more money.

[14:26] Roberta: Absolutely right. So it's all exponential. Everything has to really be looked at in an exponential way. So it's not just like 1% going up. It's 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1%. And this person is getting all of these 1% at the top of the pyramid. That's a lot of money. When you look at that, like, 1% looks like nothing. But when you tally up how many people there are. And this is going up. That's where that big money comes from, right? And a lot of times, and again, because of these annual rules and the self regulation, there is not really any legal distinction between what you sell and what you buy on the back end or how you buy it on the back end. So a lot of times people will tell me that to hit their quotas to get their bonus checks because they're so invested and they spend so much money to maintain their ranks in this MLM of buying product and buying product packs and signing people up. Then oftentimes to hit certain ranks and hit certain bonuses. They have admitted to creating false accounts, we call them ghost accounts, making up emails. I've had people on my show say that they signed up their cat, right? I just made an email from a cat. My cat joined a beachbody. And sort of these sort of things, which is very dishonest and in any sort of selfregulatory, it would not be allowed. But this is sort of the things that sometimes you have to just do it. Sometimes you just have to weigh how much are you going to get on that bonus or you're going to make $1,000 on the bonus is only going to cost you $200 in product to make an account and buy $200 a product as a new customer that you could sell. Then you get $1,000 and you could sell that product, or you could do giveaways to get people to join your group with that product, or you could use that product, or you could gift friends that product. So that's totally fine to have product on hand. Like, no big deal. And now I get this $1,000 bonus that only cost me $200, and $800 is still better than $0. So I'm going to do that, and I'm going to do that consistently. And I'm going to do that to the point where I have so much inventory in my house, I can't even give it away because nobody wants it. And you're in this really vicious cycle that a lot of people don't realize happened because sometimes people just don't stay long enough. People leave that warm market sort of dissipates. After about three months, we find where your friends, family and close people are like, I've already bought lipstick. I've already got the fat wraps. Thank you so much for the leggings. I'm good for a while. And then you are now thrown to the wolves of the very over saturated market because literally your other goal is to add more people to the pool and create more competition for yourself. And then at that point when your warm market is gone and your mom is like, I'm good, you're on your own. But now you're struggling because everything that you've made, you've reinvested. So now you're in the red again. And you have to sort of repeat this process, but at this point, it's a lot harder to repeat the process. And so you have to sort of skirt the system and cheat it through these loopholes that just sort of are, quote, unquote, the norm, and everybody sort of encourages, but doesn't really encourage. But when you say you had to do it, most people are like, oh, yeah, I've had to do that, too. Don't even worry about it. It's very common. Don't even worry about it. And I saw that all the time in the MLM, and I saw that in Lulu row, and I actually had to do that to make a sale one time. I had to say, oh, yeah, I sold the shirt, and I just kept it. And I was like, I'll just do a giveaway tomorrow, and I'll just give this away. And I bought it. I had to buy it to hit the thing, and everybody has to do it. It's just something. And I don't think I've met one person that has come on my show that hasn't admitted to doing something that they now find unethical or unmoral. I did that. It's just part of it. Well, that's just not a system I want to be involved with.

[18:19] Sam: Well, and the thing that's hard is, like, everybody is saying, oh, yeah, you can do this, and you're so close to your goal anyway, and just do this one thing, and you do it. And then now, 20 years later or whatever, you're like, oh, my God, why was I so dumb? I mean, that's part of what's hard about it. When you finally do break away from it, you're like, wow, I was just gaslighted for years. My favorite one of my favorites was the charity fundraiser, right? So you have a volume you have to hit, and you need new clients, and you need this and you need that. So they're like, well, you should go do a charity fundraiser for someone that's a real feel good. But you know what? You pay them out of your 20% commission, right? And then you get the volume and then you'll get your volume bonus. And it's like the volume bonus is like 6% or 5% or 2%, which doesn't equal 10%. You know, that you're giving away so much of it. It is like a magic shell game. It's like, absolutely.

[19:30] Roberta: If these companies really were charitable, like, wouldn't you think that they would front that money as opposed to the little guy having to front this money and do this? That was really funny. Lula Rowe would offer, like, oh, we'll do matching funds. But we came to find out later on leaving and talking to people that most people never got the matching funds donations that Lulu never sent them. And it's just like what? Okay, that's weird. And a lot of times, people it was a small amount of money, so people would just be like, well, whatever. I'm glad to have the $60 it would have been nice to have 120, but 60 is better than nothing. Thanks so much for $60 to our thing that we're raising money for and then move on. But $60 or whatever, that was never matched. Times, however many people were never matched, is a lot of money.

[20:19] Sam: That is yeah.

[20:22] Roberta: Those records are never kept.

[20:25] Sam: Charities don't have the manpower to hunt down those dollars either. And I think that some of these companies take advantage of that. We made a pledge for this. I mean, there's a very significant, nasty public Hollywood divorce case that happened recently where the wife pledged this money and she thinks that's donating the money, we all know who we're talking about, and she doesn't understand that pledging it is not donating it like that. She has to actually donate it now.

[21:00] Roberta: Right. You can't just say, I'm going to give you a million dollars. You actually have to also give it to me.

[21:05] Sam: Correct? Yeah. So one of the things that I started to notice and then the further away you get from it, I think you realize more of it. There's like a dictionary I referred in the opening to the Hunts and things like that. I'm going to lead with the word that became so overused, and it has become anyone who spends time on my blog knows I hate this word so much. It's the word just so think of Nike, right? Just do it. That sounds so easy. Just do it. Just do it. In MLMs, the answer is well, just do it. I'm going to give you the example. So I had someone on my team with the last company that I worked for, and she was signed up. She couldn't do her initial show. She deferred because her dad went to the hospice. And my director said to me, you know, hostess means different things. Oh, my God. And then she says, why don't you just travel across the state and have her show for her and then donate the money to charity? You could just do that. So here's the thing. If I do that, I qualify this sales rep. But it's her money, right? Because it has to go in under her to qualify her. So it goes in under her. So she has to be willing to give up whatever the commission is that she would have made. Give me half of it. I give half of it to the charity. Or she keeps it. Who knows? But then I only get an override as her upline, and then my boss gets even more because now she's got this team of people who's all qualified underneath. And I thought, you're telling me to take on travel expenses and marketing and all of these things for a woman whose father is going into hospice and dying, and you're asking me to leverage that with her community. And this is when I started to work towards leaving, because I called my trainer and I was like, this smells so bad to me. And that's when I started to realize how often people in the business were saying to me, you could just do this, you could just do that. And they make everything sound really easy.

[23:54] Roberta: Absolutely. I never even thought about it like that, actually.

[23:57] Sam: Those little and it isn't as easy as just do whatever. Again, the woman, her dad was dying.

[24:03] Roberta: Just work harder.

[24:05] Sam: Just work harder.

[24:06] Roberta: Just spend a little bit more time on your social media. Just scroll a little farther. Just like a few more posts. Yeah, absolutely.

[24:13] Sam: Just dig in on your class reunion page.

[24:18] Roberta: Just set up a booth outside the grocery store and just talk to everybody that comes out. It's not that hard, right?

[24:24] Sam: Totally easy. So what are some of your favorite terms that are just sort of maybe they were unique to Lula Row or just sort of in that genre of MLM that are just so over abused and horrible? Like your word hon. Let's explain that one and then we can get into the other.

[24:44] Roberta: Yeah, so hun, I mean, it's affectionate. It is. It's affectionate. It's just a way to describe somebody that has been or is in an MLM. It is gender neutral. A hun can be a guy or a girl, really, it doesn't matter. It's a totally gender fluid term, and it literally describes anybody that has been or is currently in an MLM as a hunt, because the main introduction is usually, hey, hon. That's all. And sometimes people are like they feel very offended, like it's a term, like a Karen. And there definitely are Karen huns. But a hun is not a Karen, and Karen is not a hun. And they are completely different and are not mutually exclusive of each other. A does not be in this instance.

[25:33] Sam: Yeah, but I laughed so hard the first time I saw you using the term Han, because that's, hey, hon, have you been I haven't seen you in so long. I'm doing this thing, and do you want to hear more about it? I was like, oh, God, Chris.

[25:47] Roberta: Yeah. On my podcast, when I'll do, like, Housekeeping in the beginning, if I have anything to say, I'll say, hey, hun bots and hun bros. And those are just two other hun terms. And those are, to me, they're funny. A Hunbot is somebody who's just very robotic. It's that copy and paste. They never remove that put person's name here or add interesting fact here, parts of the copy paste. And they're like, Oops, that was for someone else. Or they use the wrong name. Like, those are sort of hunbots. They're just very robotic. And then a hun bro is just a bro who's also a hun. They sell crypto. They're always trying to get you to sell insurance with them. And it's sort of that sort of thing. And so that's my little Joe. Most of the people that listen to my show. Actually not even most two thirds of the people that listen to my show are former MLM or current MLMers and we have about a third of people that are just fascinated by the whole thing and I appreciate them just as much, but two thirds of my audience are definitely hunbuts and hungry or former ones and it's just a fun term. And then actually, I'm a Game of Thrones fan, and so I call myself the Hunbot Slayer. Sometimes from the sword, the kingslayer So that's a funny thing too. I like to use the word hon because it brings the whole community together and I think it's just something we can all poke fun of where it's not really offensive and we all know that it is ingest and loving. Joking. Yeah. But some of my favorite not favorite make me cringe. I hate the phrase from MLM would definitely include like boss babe for sure. I hate the term boss babe or girl boss or anything that sort of like infantiles women in that way. I like the term babe. I use the term babe. I feel like that's sort of gender fluid as well. That's what I will use instead. And I'll say, I'm not your Hyundai. That's sort of what I say. And whatever the other thing is, lura always would tell us like wind gas lighting us to assume innocence. Always like what you said, well, assume innocence, that might not be what we meant. Say you were pigs wrestling in the mud, but what we meant we love you and we love that you support us and we want you to buy more clothes. So the sue innocence was always so cringy. Boss babe is cringy. What else really like hey hon, or anybody offering me any sort of opportunity? I'm always very much like, wait, what? Anytime really just a stranger reaching out to me with the word anybody. I don't know, just being like, hi, the word opportunity. Absolutely. I feel like everything is a red flag. I used to be so much more extroverted and I've become so much more of an extroverted introvert where I'm like, yeah, no, we can have it, but then I need like a week to just chill on my own now. And I think it's a lot of the MLM trauma of being on twenty four seven and having to share everything, whereas now I can curate what I want to share and sort of take breaks and be my own boss. Yeah, actually be the boss of myself and say, I'm not going to go on TikTok today and that's totally okay. Whereas in MLM it would be like why haven't you posted eight times today? You're supposed to post eight times. You're supposed to reach out to ten people. You're supposed to offer the opportunity to at least three of them and I don't have to do that anymore. So even that like someone telling me what. To do or someone telling me that I should do this or to just do that or anybody trying to control me is also a very cringy red flag to me. Someone telling me that I shouldn't be friends with someone or block this person or don't look at this again is very culty to me, and it sends off all my bells. So I'm like, no, I'm not about any type of control at all. I do what you want and be who you want as long as you're not harming yourself or others is basically how I view the world now.

[30:16] Sam: Yeah, exactly. So you've introduced the four letter word of cult. Roberta and I each have our own separate contact with people from the NXIVM cult through our podcasts. If you've been around here for a while, I had a couple of conversations with India Oxenberg, and Roberto has talked to some people as well. She'll tell you about that. So Nixiom was like, the perfect marriage of MLM and cult. Zero product, right?

[30:56] Roberta: Spirituality.

[30:57] Sam: Yeah, zero product. You're going to be enlightened. You're going to be a trainer, you're going to be this. You're going to come up through the ranks. You're literally just selling an idea to be right.

[31:08] Roberta: It's the Scientology aspect of Nxiom enlightenment corner.

[31:13] Sam: Right? It turns a corner, and now all of a sudden, as India said to me, she's being kind of forced to have sex with this guy that looks like a Harry Teddy Graham. Her words, by the way.

[31:27] Roberta: Teddy goes.

[31:28] Sam: He's a Harry Teddy Graham. I'm glad that she can have a sense of humor about that. So you started to make these connections, and which came first, chicken or egg on that? Were you thinking, gee, Lula Row is really starting to feel like a cult to me, or had you left at all? Then it started to kind of turn around.

[31:57] Roberta: It all happened, like, the same exact week. So I had already been feeling that Lula Row was being really shady. They were promising things to people, and I was not affected by the promises they were breaking because of the rank that I was and where I was and how I was not planning on leaving. And so a lot of the things that they were doing were not personally affecting me, but they were affecting people that I knew and that I cared about. And so I was voicing those concerns and thinking in a business mindset, which is what they're always telling us to be, I'm bringing to them, like, actual business, like, hey, this is weird, and this shouldn't be happening. There's a really easy fix. And those things were always ignored. And then they had this buyback program, and a lot of things were happening, and things were being shady. And I had a girl's night with three former members of my team who I'm still friends with to this day. And they were like, Come have wine, and cheese. And we had to talk that night and I was like, I think I got to go. And they're like, we're really surprised you're still there. Who are you defending? What are you protecting? Like, we're really still surprised. And I was like, I still feel very responsible for a lot of the people that I got in. And I didn't really want to abandon them, right? And I was hoping to stay to help. And in mid September, because it was right around my daughter's birthday, they pulled this buyback. They had told everybody, don't worry, it's not going anywhere. They had used it as a recruitment tool, that it was a risk free opportunity that you could always get 100% back. They were so confident in this and they had used it as a recruiting tool. And a lot of people had joined on the basis that this thing was not going anywhere. And they had said that so many times. Whatever, they pulled the plug and they were like, well, it also says that we can do whatever we want. So we did what we wanted and we pulled the plug even though we said we wouldn't. And that happened the exact same day that I had decided to leave. In fact, it happened about 3 hours after I had made the decision with myself to leave. And so that really just solidified, just really solidified my position in leaving. And then it was really affecting people because a lot of the people that had left and I was helping them get out with their refunds, we're now dead in the water because Lula Row had said, unless we have sent you shipping labels, like if you've gone through the whole process of submitting your return, getting it approved, and then they would send you shipping labels. So if you were not at the shipping label portion, even if you had boxed everything up, counted everything, submitted everything and were in line, if you had not received a shipping label by this day, you were not grandfathered in. And it was going back to the way it was. Goodbye. And a lot of people were like, I don't know whether complaining it went from 100 to 90, but it's not about that. It's about integrity and it's about being truthful. And it's about protecting the people that you claim to love and want to help. And actions speak louder than words. And they just very much did in little Row. And so that was a very much solidification. And I started helping and I joined the defective Facebook group that we talked about in the documentary. And I started really just connecting with people that had left because at that point I was like, I'm done. And at that point I was also very angry. I probably would have just left and been like, whatever, had the buyback policy not been revoked and had I not been treated so poorly when I did decide to leave. Like those two factors really like, and they haven't so close together that it really fueled me up. So I was like, oh. So I left and I was angry and I was in this Facebook group and I was sharing and crying and this is happening and this is true and all of this was happening. And so for me, one, it was confirmation that this is a giant scam and this is a pyramid scheme and these are the proof and here's all this stuff. And absolutely, yes, that's what that was. And if that means that's a pyramid scheme, then absolutely I was in a pyramid scheme. And that sort of realization on the back end, talking to other victims and just fascinated bystanders that, had been watching who Are Wonderful and my friends now too. And then the juxtaposition of me stopping from being in that controlled situation of just not talking to anybody in Lula Row and only talking to survivors and victims at that point and then being like, you know what? I'm going to watch TV. And then I watched Leah Remini and Mike Render and Scientology Aftermath Show and it was still on TV and it was a new episode and it was like a reunion episode and everybody was just giving examples of abuse that they had had in the Colts. And I had an example for everything.

[36:31] Unknown Speaker: Yeah.

[36:31] Roberta: And it was at that point and I have a friend who was in Scientology who left, who related to the freaking guy, like the head guy, and she left and wrote a book. And I read her book. She gave it to me. And I still like I never saw any of the signs until I experienced them because my experiences were different. And then listening to the survivors describe, though my experience with my gas lighting was very different or my abuse or my manipulation was very different than theirs, but that core feeling was the same. That manipulation was the same. The Gaslighting technique was the same. And I had an example for everything. And I just remember, like, these big, fat, hot tears just like, pouring out of my face, like emotionless, but just welling up in like, all of this emotion just pouring out. And my ex was like, Are you okay? And I'm just like, I'm in a cult. Like, I just knew. And it was like Leah Remini and Mike Render snapped me out of it and made me go, oh my God, this is a cult. And it was that same week, and it was like, this is a cult and it's a pyramid scheme. This is both it's a scam and a cult. What? How is this business? What and then I just sort of started diving in and I found Robert Fitzpatrick, who is the president of Pyramid Scheme Alert, and he talks about pyramid schemes and MLMs and the similarities and the science and the research behind it. And I found dr. Steven Hasson, who is a cult expert and an ex mooney, and I reached out to Sarah Edmondson, and her and I became friends. She was anxiem, and I was on her and Nippy's podcast last year, which sort of ended up leading me to being on Liz Iacuzzi's podcast. I was Diana Colt, which then led me to getting to meet Mike and Leah and being on their podcast. And that's exactly like that zoom opening up. And I was like, I don't even know why I wore makeup because I immediately burst into tears. And Leia's like, oh, my God. Darling, are you okay? And then we had to take, like, a ten minute break where I could just pour out my emotion before we could even hit record, because I was like, I have to get this out.

[38:53] Unknown Speaker: Yeah.

[38:53] Roberta: And it was incredible and transformative and validating. And so many things after Lula Rich happened, and people were like, oh, my God, yes. And we started associating this cult. There's an organization that I'm a part of. I got out. It's the foundation, and it's run by Cold survivors. And Sarah is one of the board of directors on the board. And they actually last year made November MLM Colt Awareness Month. So we have our own awareness month in the cold spectrum.

[39:30] Sam: Wow.

[39:30] Roberta: Which was really awesome. And then this year, I was actually on the MLM panel, the MLM conference panel, talking with Dr. Steven Hasson about MLM cold recovery. So it was like, full circle for me from the last year. Just a very transformative year. And it's absolutely a cult of this.

[39:56] Sam: One of the things that.

[40:00] Roberta: It occurred.

[40:01] Sam: To me, anytime I would go to the big meeting, you'd have your convention, whatever you're going to call it. Different companies, they always have, like, a cute kitchen name for whatever it is. You'd go to your convention, your conference. There's usually one in July somewhere hot because they get cheap hotel rates, but you can win your trip and all that. And you come home from that, and I'd like, look at my husband. And I'd be like, did you have a great time? Oh, my God, I had such a great time. I am totally drinking the Koolaid.

[40:32] Roberta: Yeah.

[40:36] Sam: When I think back on how often I or my peers would say that and we were kidding, except, are you right? Are we not all just, like, doing these, like, crazy, this desire to get ahead in it? So one of the things, and I believe I know the answer to this, what you're finding out, are they targeting stay at home moms don't target anybody.

[41:10] Roberta: They target vulnerabilities. That's really all they target. They don't care who you are, as long as you are in some sort of weakness in your life where you feel like you need something more and you're vulnerable to it. So right now, the Hispanic population is targeted really heavily by monet the hair shampoo and also herbalife. Herbal life will also target the Hispanic population. A lot of the crypto and finance and insurance target a lot of black males. Lula Row targeted Mormon women and stay at home moms. And so it really does, it's just which MLM is going to target you is more like the question, right? Okay, so if you want to lose weight, then the weight loss ones are going to want to target you because they want you to take them on your journey with you and take all your money while you do it. And so I tell people when they're looking for red flags and wondering if they're susceptible, we're all vulnerable every single day. There are moments in your day where you're vulnerable, not all the time, but you do have vulnerabilities every single day. Not all of them are going to lead you to join a pyramid scheme, but one of them might. And so to first know where you're at in your life and what your vulnerabilities are like, is money an issue? Is housing an issue? Is there food poverty in your life? Are you looking to better your health or your fitness? Or what is it? What is it that you feel you are lacking, that you feel like you need to fix one? It's most likely what you really need to fix is your head. Go get a therapist. Support that big time. But for those that still haven't gotten to that point going, you know what, I was a therapist the whole time. You guys were right. Those that are trying to fix it, that's your vulnerability. So just know that you have it because people are going to come looking for it. And then also know when you're putting your vulnerability out there and how that looks to social media and what that looks like on social media, you could be complaining about gas prices. Everybody's doing that right now, right? Like, oh my God, gas prices. So if you're complaining about gas prices and you're saying, man, I don't have enough money to pay for gas, well, now you've just exposed your vulnerability. You don't have enough money. They don't care to pay for gas. You have now complained about money and they have a solution for that. So the first time you ever complain about money, literally, that is the solution of every MLM. You have now just made yourself vulnerable to every single one of them. If you complain about getting headaches or not having enough sleep or being a new parent or not having friends or anything that an MLM can promise they can fix, with community, with a business, with money, with stability, with whatever, if you complain about that, the price surprise, we are literally trained to look for that on social media and offer our business as a solution. So you are literally creating the ability to become a victim. I tell people that Facebook is not your diary. All the time. And you need to be really careful about what you put on there because even if it's just your friends and you're not posting things publicly, there are people on your friends list that don't know they could be harming you with these pyramid schemes because they've also been taught to believe that it's not a pyramid scheme. That's so silly. Those are illegal, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So they're coming to you believing they have an actual opportunity.

[44:33] Unknown Speaker: Right?

[44:34] Roberta: Because the business themselves has already wiped the fact that pyramid schemes, they've already trained them on that. So that's a non sequitur. It just doesn't matter, right? You know what I mean? The pyramid scheme thing, it doesn't matter. You have to know where you're at in your life if they don't come for you. And really just not posting everything on Facebook is going to help first and foremost.

[45:02] Sam: Yeah. So did you have the experience? I ran into this again with the last organization and they don't exist anymore, so I don't really feel bad talking about this. Also, I'm probably going to get some loose some friends.

[45:18] Roberta: All right. This content is not for them, right?

[45:22] Sam: No, it's not. The most valuable commodity that I found because they said it out loud with the final company I was with was your list. Your list, your names, right? So you're selling an idea, you're selling spirituality or growth or whatever it is. Maybe there's a product involved, but what the ownership really wants is your list. And so we were owned by a venture capital group, and things were good and normal, and I was not having a hard time with this company at that point. And then they were sold to a different venture capital group and things started to feel weird. And I called my brother who worked in venture capital, and I said, here's the guys. These are the guys. This is the company. And he was like, you got to get out. He's like, you got to get out because they are there to liquidate and get the list. They bought the company to get the list of names to then resell to any spam marketing company. That's what is super valuable right now. So I was like, really? Okay, all right. But it's so fun and I love the clothes. But eventually I left because I had started my blog at that point, and I really didn't want to if I was talking about fashion in particular in my blog, I didn't want to be like, you can only wear these things if you want to have whatever the life is that we're talking about. I felt that was disingenuous to have a blog and talk about my favorite things. And they all happen to be from my company. And somewhere deep down in the direct selling organization, like monitoring self policing thing, you're not supposed to be allowed to do that. It's misrepresentation that this is just an authentic. I like this product. So anyway, so I decide I'm going to leave, and they're still trying to recruit, and they have my list. And my husband this is a women's clothing company. My husband gets a voicemail. Hey, Hun. I think I changed his name. So it sounded like a little feminine because I'm sure he was a fake customer, right? We're talking about like, Antonia bought some whatever, and she's like, hey, honey, how are you? I was wondering if you were interested in talking to me about this great side hustle. Hustle being another one of those words that I cannot stand anymore. If you're really interested in this side hustle, it would be so great, so much fun. It's like super easy. It's a turnkey business. And he was like, what the fuck is that? By the way, same last name. So I changed the first name. So it was like a little, you know, again, but it was the same last name. That's how lazy they were. It was we are calling everyone on this list. And fortunately, that's when I had missed. I had actually gone in before I left. And I changed a bunch of phone numbers on people because I was like, I know what they're going to do with this. And you're talking about the team that you build and feeling bad and whatever. I felt like I needed to apologize. I ended up on my blog, then sending a newsletter out because again, I still have that list, right? That's my list. And so I sent it out. I'm like, Please understand, I never authorized anybody using your name. I didn't sell your name. Yeah.

[49:24] Roberta: Wow. I mean, it's so shady, but it's so MLM at the same time, right?

[49:36] Sam: And that's very hard. And when you leave, when you're still drinking the Kool Aid, you're like, oh, it's just part of doing business. It's a fact of doing business. It's really not. I mean, it's really not.

[49:52] Roberta: I mean, it's so wild. It's just part of doing business. It's like destroying relationships is not part of business. It's not part of business. Being shady, it shouldn't be part of business. Burning bridges with people shouldn't be a part of business. Why would you do that? Why would you create a network and then burn it to the ground? It doesn't make any sense. It's very shady, and it's not how it works at all in the real world. When I'm moving through with my podcast and working with different brands, I always try to keep things as friendly and neutral and positive if we part ways, because who wants to burn bridges with professional networks? It seems very opposite of what a real business would be.

[50:42] Sam: You want to take that connection with you somewhere else. I mean, that may have value. Maybe you aren't in a position to work together anymore, but you might be in the future. And yeah, that was very hard for me. And then I got some nasty messages because I did then send this big email saying, I did not give anybody permission to contact you. Your name was pulled off the database. I was very upfront about what happened and I caught some heat for that. On the back end. They were like, why would you do that? I thought you said you loved being here. So what I did until you did this, I mean, I left because I felt like it blurred that line of integrity. As I mentioned, if I was talking about my favorite stuff on a blog and I was willing to still refer business because I liked the product, it was closed. It was beautiful stuff. It was when they started to do that, I was like, what are you doing? You had the opportunity for me to keep talking about you and helping in a much more organic way. And now, like you are with what you're doing now. You're just way out in front about it. And we will row still exists, correct? Right. So now if you start googling, your name is going to come up on SEO and if they played nice with you, right?

[52:13] Roberta: Yeah, I'm sure. I'm probably not enemy number one, but I'm definitely enemy in the top ten probably of Lulu Row. And the funny thing is I don't really focus on them or talk about them too much. Usually if I make any content, it's because others ask for it and they go, oh, can you talk about what this was in Lulu Row? Or do you know anything about this? So I'm not usually the one that's ever bringing it up. There are so many other things to talk about and so many other people to talk to that it's in my past. And I sort of leave it. And I'm appreciative for obviously where it brought me. But it's just funny because I'm not I don't care. You know what I mean? And it's funny how they make it seem like I care so much. It's like I filmed Lula Rich in 2020. Like two years ago, I filmed it. So I know it's fresh for everybody else. But for me, I said my goodbyes. And with the lawsuit that happened in February 2021, settled for 4.75 million. And I was sort of like, okay, all of the Lulu things that I'm involved with helping with, like the documentary and articles and things were done. And that's when I said I'm going to start my podcast and focus on victim recovery and telling authentic stories. It does come up. I mean, Lula Row comes up. Obviously people think of Lula Roe, they think of me. And that's fine. I'm the dead fart leggings girl and I own it. But at the same time, I actually got recognized today. So I was like, wait a second. And I was like, Lulu Rich. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I'm the deadfirt leggings girl. They're like, oh, my God, you are. And I was just like, It's the weirdest thing in the world, but yeah, it's a part of my life. And I'll definitely talk about it when it comes up, but I'm not the one that brings it up.

[53:56] Sam: Yeah. So how did the documentary I mean, did you get a phone call one day and you were like, what?

[54:03] Roberta: Yes. No. Basically, I got an email from a personal assistant that said, I am an assistant of these people and they would like to talk to you about Lula Rowe, if you're interested. And I Googled their names and I saw that they were producers and I emailed back and I said, I would love to talk. We set up a time it was Bly and Corey and I set up a time with them and we got on the phone and they were like, roberta, we've been dying to talk to you. We've been following you for months and months since the Vice documentary, this little piece I did with Vice came out. They've been following my social media advocacy and activism and the lawsuit and all the things that I had been doing and working with reporters. And they were like, we loved Vice, and we would love to tell a deeper story, and we would love for you to be a part of that if you're willing. And I said, Absolutely. I've been waiting for this phone call, right? So I signed a contract where I was basically like a consultant, basically, and just sort of it's just for a documentary. Like, I was a consultant with stories and people. And I just started reaching out to people I knew that I had spoken with, that I knew had stories to tell, that I thought were important stories to tell and multifaceted and reached out to people and said, hey, are you interested? I can send them your phone number. I reached out to Shay and Daryl and Courtney and they were all 100% yeses. I reached out to Paul and Tiffany and because they had worked on reality TV before, they were like, we have more questions. And we had a couple of phone calls and went back and forth, and ultimately they decided to tell their story as well. There are a couple of other people that I didn't know that were involved, and Robert Fitzpatrick, who is a colleague of mine, was in it as well, and a couple of different reporters. And I thought it was a really cool experience. And that's basically what it was. They just called and said, let's do this. And I just started helping them get in contact with people.

[55:54] Sam: I've reached out to some people who I know kind of going back and forth on the whole MLM thing and said, you might just want to watch it. Just watch it. The problem, I think, is that Lula Row because dead fart leggings and it smelled and the product was wet and there were holes in it. They were very obvious, glaring issues. I think a lot of these companies, if they have a product that is still working for people, it's much harder to get out because there's still this. Oh, this season was really cute. This next catalog is really great, right?

[56:40] Roberta: Absolutely.

[56:41] Sam: It was, like, really obvious, and it was like, wait a minute, I can't sell this.

[56:44] Roberta: This is my whole job.

[56:45] Sam: And now I can't sell this because it's got holes in it and it smells, right?

[56:51] Roberta: I mean, there are still people that were involved back then. They got smelly, holy wet stuff that are still in and still say lulu rose is the best thing ever, and completely deny that any of that was even, like, an issue for them. Like, oh, it's just part of business. I said, really? Because I've been a part of a couple of different businesses, and this is the only one that's ever sent me wet, smelly, moldy things with bugs on it. Like, that's literally the only one.

[57:12] Unknown Speaker: Right?

[57:13] Roberta: And all MLMs have their own issues. And rodent in. Fields has a lawsuit because of their eye serum or whatever, their lash boost. And Monet has got a hair falling out one. And herbalife had a big lawsuit about being a pyramid scheme that was settled a couple of years ago. The lawsuits are there, the problems with the products there. It's just maybe there's not enough people screaming. Right.

[57:39] Sam: Because I almost died.

[57:42] Roberta: Yes. And that was the thing we did. We just couldn't shut up about it.

[57:45] Sam: Yeah.

[57:45] Roberta: Jesus Christ, really?

[57:47] Sam: Yeah. Stayed up in the hospital for like, two weeks, had a liver, kidney, something massively wrong.

[57:55] Roberta: I would say probably, yes. Liver, kidneys. The way that the stuff filters through your body, I mean, it's just expensive pea. Like all that stuff got to filter through something, right? The organs that are actually there to detox your actual body are being destroyed by these fake detoxes, which is just wild. And I'm just like, you guys don't see this? Really? No.

[58:18] Sam: So what's the new one with the little square?

[58:23] Roberta: I can already know.

[58:26] Sam: You and I reconnected on that because we started talking months ago, and I looked up like, what's the secret ingredient? And they're like, it's banned in, like, 90% of the countries in the world. And it's like, have you seen this? And you're like, oh, my god, yes.

[58:40] Roberta: Everybody's telling you this. It's some sort of ingredient. You can actually just buy it as a supplement. And it's illegal, I think. And again, I don't know so much because it's very secretive and you don't know everything. But from what I've gathered by looking at posts and things, is that this particular ingredient, the way that it's being used in this product, is illegal. The way it's being used, not that the product itself is illegal, but also that this product may be banned soon is the other. Thing. So there's like two issues, right? So one, they're using this ingredient incorrectly or I don't know. The FDA is its whole own scam in and of itself.

[59:25] Sam: And again, you're buying what this 80s girl is like, are they selling like, acid?

[59:36] Roberta: Is there a little heart on it or a little smiley face?

[59:38] Sam: Yeah. And you don't know what you're getting. Oh, Susie told me that it's going to make me lose weight or have more energy or whatever the thing is that it's going to do.

[59:50] Roberta: Apparently it cures everything. I've seen screenshots where it cures everything. And then I've also seen screenshots where it's like, don't say this, say this instead. Don't say headache. Say throbbing, cranial pain. It's ridiculous. Things like, they don't want you to say, like, actual medical issues. They want you to say these ridiculous change. They just changed it. You just look down at thesaurus and they're like, don't say pain, say hurt. And it's like, what? Like they were saying, let me work on my phone and I have the screenshot. Let me just share some of them because it's ridiculous. You just edit this. Me singsong out.

[01:00:39] Sam: It's actually part of what I love about your podcast is your voice. You definitely have a voice for it because it's like you get scary conversational.

[01:00:47] Roberta: And fun, my little sing songs. I love it when I go because I'll record months in advance, and then when I edit, it's like a surprise again, and I laugh. And if I'm laughing in the present and I'm like, okay, that's still funny always. I'm like culty. Okay, so eloir. Avoid these terms pain. Say this instead. Muscle aches, discomfort or hurt. Avoid migraine instead. Use auras or debilitating head throbbing. Like debilitating head throbbing?

[01:01:22] Sam: Really?

[01:01:23] Roberta: You can't debilitating head throbbing?

[01:01:26] Sam: I've had decades of migraines. Don't say that. No.

[01:01:30] Roberta: Do you have debilitating hat? Robbing my little acid element can fix it. Anxiety is just racing thoughts and feelings of panic and restlessness. I was like, no, it's not. It's most basic, but it's just really wild. And so this is sort of the same sort of things that MLMs will do to get around. These are loopholes, right? This is selfregulation, right? Instead of not making health claims, which would be actual self regulation, they're like, make these kind of health claims instead. Because these are the legal loophole, health claims, where we can say that fatigue is just that you're always tired.

[01:02:15] Sam: Right? And the FDA doesn't entirely regulate supplements. They do actual drugs, right?

[01:02:23] Roberta: And I can't tell you that it's going to help your diabetes, but I might say that it may help balance your blood sugar levels, which is kind of the same thing for anybody that has diabetes. If I tell you that it's going to help you balance your blood sugar levels, you're going to go, oh, I need that because I have diabetes, right? So even just avoiding using that term is in and of itself, very predatory, because you are targeting a specific group of people for this, using this bullshit, like orwellian double speak to get people into your scam. It's very blatant.

[01:03:01] Sam: Roberta I took a marketing class. Like, I do continuing education stuff on my business and whatnot. So this is marketing seminar, and I get it. But for me, and I think it will do the same for you, like, it put my teeth on it. They're saying there are different ways you can market. You can market to an actual destination, like something that they would be seeking, or you market to their pain points. And I was like, oh, I don't like that. And I get it. I mean, there's a reason, because psychologists have studied all these things and then they've turned it into marketing. And I get it, but it is so hard for me to and I actually told this person teaching the class, I'm like, it's really hard for me to go there and talk about a potential client's pain points, even though with a lot of what I do with one on one clients is try to fix whatever these issues are and help them work through it. But it feels like one of those old MLM terms that is a little predatory.

[01:04:14] Roberta: Well, marketing and advertising in general is going to be predatory because people are selling a product and they're trying to get it to the right person. Right? If I'm not a man and I don't play basketball, nike doesn't really care about showing me their new basketball shoes for dudes that play basketball.

[01:04:31] Sam: Right?

[01:04:31] Roberta: I don't need to see that. If they have a woman's shoe for people that jump on trampolines, I might be interested in that. Maybe they would want to show me that. But there are specific products that are just not ever going to be something that I would buy for myself or someone in my household. And that's what algorithms and marketing and data points on people. That's what it tells, right? That's why you can be like, oh, my God, I was talking about watches all day, and all of a sudden, Facebook knows I want to watch. Of course, because the algorithm knows you better than you. Go watch the great hack and see how it happened. That's part of it. And so we just have to know already that marketing and advertising in and of itself is inherently going to be targeting you and your pain points or your needs. The difference is, though, with multi level marketing is it has now become this predatory thing. Because I'm not just selling you something to help your pain. I'm selling you something to help your pain. And then I'm also trying to get you to join, to also sell to others to help their pain. And that distinction right there is what makes it predatory, because I am promising you things that do not exist. If you give me money and trust me. And Nike isn't doing that. Nike isn't going, hey, you really liked those trampoline shoes, Roberta. How would you like to sell trampoline shoes to all of your friends and have all of your friends sell trampoline shoes, too? That's just not ever going to happen with Nike the way it will happen with it Works or rodentic fields or Tupperware or Ella Mir. And so that is the distinction because everybody is out there, you got to make money to pay your bills and businesses are not out of that realm again. Knowing your vulnerabilities, knowing what your targets would be, knowing what you actually need versus what media is telling you you need, those are just really things. Just being really self aware is going to be your best tool in combating red flags. And then there's all kinds of different education podcasts and Instagram accounts and TikTok accounts that do this sort of stuff, too. And it's really interesting. The Venn diagram of abuse with red flags is a circle. It's a fucking circle. And so you can abuse me in an MLM, you can abuse me in a narcissistic one on one relationship, you can abuse me in a Scientology cult, and it's going to be the same abuse and the same tactics. It's just going to look a little different. Right? The bobbles that you're dangling in front of me are going to be a little different within a narcissistic abuse, it's going to be love and attention, right? Within a cult, it's going to be enlightenment in heaven and being exalted to the greatest stars. And in an MLM, it's financial freedom. And so it's the same tactic, it's the same scam, it's the same cult, the indoctrination, it's the same us versus them. It's the same black and white thinking that gets you sucked in and gets you stuck. It just is going to look different depending on which one you're in and what your vulnerabilities are at the time, if that makes sense. Absolutely.

[01:07:25] Sam: So I have two questions left, but.

[01:07:29] Sam: We are running a little long, so I think we're going to take a pause here and start recording our second part of two with the Real Roberta Blevins. Make sure you come back for my last two important questions for Roberta and her experience in MLMs and Lula Roe. Thank you for joining me. Sam Ditka at Meant for Moxie, The podcast. Thanks to Roberta for being a great guest today and sharing her experience with Lula Row and movement to help people get educated and understand what the pitfalls of multilevel marketing can be. Roberta's podcast Life After MLM can be found wherever you listen to your pods. The Lula Rich documentary can be found on Amazon Prime and is linked in the podcast notes. Meant for Moxie is the companion podcast to Moxie Mama by Sam Ditka. More information can be found at www dot. Moxiemama TV meant for moxie is produced by Timothy Ditka. Music the energy is courtesy of Abused Music and can be found on itunes. Make sure you stop back for our second installment with Roberta Blevins.