Meet my Obi Wan, Colleen-Joy Page of Inner Life Skills Coaching

Colleen-Joy changed my life.  No hyperbole there, she really did.  

I connected with her during the pandemic and ended up being inspired to get my coaching certifications and work towards international accredidation.  

Colleen founded Inner Life Skills coaching, and she has a compelling origin story.  In keeping with this podcast theme of "everyday people doing extraordinary things," I know you will enjoy hearing her tale.

Transcript

[00:02] Sam: Welcome and I am so glad to have you here.

[00:06] Sam: Thank you for patiently waiting for the.

[00:08] Sam: Return of the podcast. Moxie Mama has gone through a massive shift in the past year plus, and both the blog and podcast were on hiatus. I am thrilled to introduce you today to my mentor and an integral part of this change. Colleen Joy Page of Inner Life skills coaching. Over the past 18 months, I've completed coursework and received certifications in professional coaching. My passion for the Enneagram connected me to inner life skills and at age 52, I went back to school. One of the many things I learned isn't even strictly educational. I learned that it is truly not ever too late to go for your dreams and grow. We are dynamic and curious beings, and keeping constantly curious is what makes us unique, empathetic and resilient. One comment that Colleen makes towards the end of this episode is that coaching is for anyone who is looking to change and to grow. I am passionate about helping individuals and groups, be they families, teams or organizations, to become extraordinary, just as the podcast says. So welcome back to meant for Moxie, where we talk with everyday people who have done extraordinary things.

[01:38] Sam: Welcome back to meant for Moxie, the podcast where I talk to everyday people who've done extraordinary things. And today's guest is really special to me, this lady. I wish I could remember exactly how I came across Colleen. It's probably on social media, I'm not sure, but she was talking about coaching and building this business and I can't entirely explain why, but I just completely trusted this lovely face and this beautiful south african accent and started looking into her school inner life skills coaching school and she's been this amazing. Maybe you don't know this Colleen mentor to me through my own journey to become a certified coach and has imparted so much wisdom on me and I am so excited to share your story today. Colleen. Colleen Joy Page, welcome.

[02:38] Colleen: My heart is so happy. Thank you for that very kind introduction. It's such a pleasure to be here.

[02:44] Sam: So I really think I just want to kick off with asking, can you give us an overview of your personal story, which I know a little bit about and some of the things that you've had to overcome to become this mogul? Mogul.

[03:04] Colleen: Wow.

[03:06] Sam: And just great mentor, kind of gifting so many things to the rest of the world and we're all trying to make the world a better place.

[03:16] Colleen: Exactly. Yes. So I think perhaps the big catalyst story was me as a 13 year old, really sad, very depressed, confused because I was desperately homesick and the homesickness wasn't about a place. It was because at the age of four, I had a near death experience. I had an egg size tumor, fibrous dysplasia, benign tumor behind my right eye that was so large it pushed my eye down, raised my eyebrow, and I was in a very conservative little town where my mom couldn't take me anywhere without people staring and pointing and gasping and what's wrong with your child? And literally, they say that children are afraid of monsters under the bed. But I was the local monster. And during a very intensive surgery to remove the tumor, I died twice and experienced what I can only describe as complete and total peace and love and freedom from the torture of being this monster child and all of the baggage that came with that. And my little four year old mind. The only word that I could use to name this was home. So when I sort of rejoined life, I always had this contrast of the fear and how incredibly challenging it was to just be human and to be alive, and the fear, the anger, the judgment, the self doubt, the torture chamber mind, that noisy mind that keeps us up at night. And so, by the age of 13, I was really tired. I'd started high school. I had whole new eyeballs staring at me. I had some scars. And I'm sure everybody understands that you don't need a tumor to feel like you have some part of you that you need to panel beat away to fit in when you're young. The tumor was gone, but I still felt like that child that everyone looked at and pointed at. And I had this contrast of, where did that peace go? Where did that love go? I wanted it more than anything. It was the most real thing in my life. 13. Feeling truly conflicted between, I love my family, but this was a secret suffering. I didn't want to burden them with more. And I was lying there in bed, staring at the moonlight, crying, and I thought, perhaps I need to leave. And this exit sign almost sort of formed in my mind. And I was struggling between the guilt of do I put my family through the trauma of their child choosing to end their life versus the trauma of being alive? And I felt totally deflated, caught between this struggle and truly, all I can say, I mean, this was prior to the Internet, prior to a lot of Hollywood movies, so I can't say I was influenced by any of this. It was just this deep peace that came over me and thoughts that entered my mind and the thoughts that felt peaceful, comforted me and gave me the sense that I did have a choice. And of course, as a typical teenager. I said, well, so if I do have a choice, what if I choose to stay? And this clear, simple idea was, then choose a reason to live that is bigger than the pain. And I took a moment, and the most sincere answer formed in the word, in my mind, in my heart. I choose to stay. For wisdom. And for me, wisdom meant deep understanding. It meant more than knowledge and information. I wanted clarity. I wanted insight. And I perhaps wanted to find that home again. So that was the beginning. That was the real beginning. And within a few short years, by the age of 16, people started asking me to teach them and to guide them. At the time, life coach wasn't even a word.

[08:09] Sam: Yeah.

[08:11] Colleen: And I argued, sam, I'd say, you do know I'm a teenager. And they insisted. They'd heard me talk a little, even though I was desperately shy. But I was so hungry for understanding. I was so hungry to put things to test. So I totally overcompensated. But I used to have clients arriving and some people even sort of flew to see me. And next minute I was running a little course for two ladies that were like 25 years older than me. And so it began, and it's just really honestly been a mix of traveling the outer world as an adult, joining teachers around the world, pioneers. I did come to the US, so I also studied with really amazing people in India and in the United States, and then on the inner world, always doing a lot of deep, what I call well building, which is building an inner well, sending my intuitive attention deeper than my torture chamber surface mind to get these aha moments. And in my late twenty s at that point, I was running a school and I was teaching between 60 and 120 people a week. And this one lady came up to me and said, cole, I'm just back from the US, and you know, you're teaching life coaching. And I said, what's life coaching? But I had this intuitive hit that this was something to look at. And she said, and you have a depth to the classes that perhaps some of the life coaching out there doesn't have. And so I immediately did some studying and the rest is history. Fast forward. Now, I'm in my early fifty s and I have the pleasure of working with beautiful people like you from around the world. And what a pleasure. Well, building wisdom. Well building wherever we go.

[10:20] Sam: That is truly amazing. I need a moment. I'm really speechless because getting that clarity at that age is so profound, because I speak to a lot of folks through the podcast who have overcome extraordinary adversity and are really thriving, not just surviving, but thriving because of it. Do you feel like almost like something terrible needs to happen to get to that place?

[11:12] Colleen: That's a good question. I can only tell you what I got from wisdom once, because it did feel like that I eventually was getting a bit fed up, that I felt like everything I teach, I have to bleed for that. I can't just get out of jail free card. Literally an insane path. Know, having a second daughter that was born with severe health problems, having lived through south african history, which includes armed robberies. And it's been a ride, Sam. It's been a roller coaster ride. And at some point, I did a little tune in. I went inside, coached myself, and the wisdom that showed up was some of us, and I'm not going to say all of us, but I know myself, really. It is a case of that willingness to change, that saying yes at the deepest level, to make fundamental change. Sometimes it's not because we are being taught a lesson, because that, like small little creatures, and it denies the sovereignty of who you are at your deepest being. So it's not like you're being taught a lesson, but it is true that in a state of desperation, we open. But then I was also shown. So now that you are conscious about this, you can choose to change because of desperation or inspiration. Which would you prefer? And I said, okay, I put my hand up for inspiration. Thanks. But one of the teachings that really comes alive for me more and more is this idea of being equal to, and I do think our path is about learning that what we have inside of ourselves, if we learn to go deeper than the surface, is equal to whatever mountain is in front of us. And even if we don't believe that's true, if we don't believe it, and if we can't feel that in ourselves, it's because we haven't sent the bucket deep enough. We're scratching in the dirt instead of filling that bucket with water, with wisdom, with our inner wealth. So there is something about seeing every challenge as an opportunity to rise, to get equal to that, to be able to look it in the eyes and feel in your bones. I'm not smaller than this. I'm not bigger than this. I'm equal to this. Yeah, I think that's a subtle answer.

[14:21] Sam: But, yes, I feel like so many of us. My husband's a very wise person, and we've had some tremendous loss in the last few years. And at the same time that we were going through a massive loss in our family, we had friends going through a very traumatic illness, injury. And we hear stories all the time. And he says, everybody gets their share. Everybody gets their share. And I can't help but wonder if it's acknowledging that everyone gets their share. Do you find with this depth and knowing that it was kind of a catalyst for you and a catalyst for so many of the clients and students that you have had that it is necessary to acknowledge that versus the people who are like, oh, I'm fine, everything's good. The people who claim that they don't have chaos in their lives, that everything runs smoothly, whatever, have you, in your experience seen that either it's false or that those folks don't maybe have the same kind of forward momentum, an ability to kind of do those things if they aren't also acknowledging that, yes, there was this chaotic presence going on at the same time?

[16:14] Colleen: That's a tricky question. In my experience, and I think in many people's experience, we can look around and say not everyone gets the off road, dirt road, tough journey. I think some folks do get the scenic route. I think some folks get the paved path, free tolls path. And it's not to say they don't experience hardship. I don't think you can be alive without some degree of pain, put it that way. How much? And whether it's relentless or whether it's an occasional, I think that is each path is different. I do think every path is different, and I think it's also relative because I think what is deeply traumatic for one person could be really manageable for another. So I'm reminded by wisdom not to judge someone else's suffering, because sometimes I'm comparing the outward expression instead of their ability to cope with it because they are not equal to a small thing, whereas life has taught me to be equal to bigger things. Yeah, I think what I do think is helpful, if I dig a little bit behind. Your question for some of where it might be coming from, is that I think it's helpful to accept that there is no path down the mountain for a river that doesn't include rocks and some waterfalls, and that pain is a part of life. And I think a lot of folks who have belief systems that suggest that there is a way to get through it because you negotiate being a better person. If I'm a good person, bad things won't happen. If I'm a good person, either I won't attract it or I won't be punished, or I won't get that karma. I mean, all these different language systems hint at this idea that somehow I'll get away with it, now I have to just behave. But what wisdom showed me, and actually, this was just after I was in a home invasion armed robbery, and my kids were asleep in the room. And a friend that was with us that night, we weren't physically harmed, but it was obviously a deeply traumatic experience, and we literally lost all our possessions. And the same friend that was with me that night, eight months later, who was a neighbor, was in another robbery, and he was shot seven times and had to have his leg amputated to survive. And when I told one of my students, actually at the time, my student believed in, you attract things based on your thoughts. And he just sort of casually said to me, oh, so what did you do to attract this? I'm sure as you hear that, it kind of hits something in your heart, because something about that, besides being quite cruel, there's something off about it. And it's not to say that there isn't some understanding of co creating or working with reality. There is some subtle, deep understanding, but it landed like a punch in the gut. And the next time I had a chance to go and really contemplate, I put that on the table, I went to my inner wisdom. Well, with, was it my fault? And had a very good cry and had this clear seeing winter is not your fault. You can think summer, summer, summer all you like, and winter still shows up. And then was this feeling of, do you have any idea who you are? That we are equal to even this when we don't know we are? And we live on, and in a reality, we live on earth, where almost as a species, we could say we're still growing up. And unfortunately, there's just so much. And I don't even want to label things because people turn these into sticky notes and they turn them into excuses. There's just so much environmentally, just in terms of the way the body is wired to immediately switch on a kill or be killed type of primitive thinking. If parts of our brain feel threatened, we abandon reason, we abandon love, we abandon compassion. And I think any of us can go into a savage place if provoked and pushed. So understanding that what started to happen is just this expanded sense that the human family were in a tumble dryer spin cycle of growth, and that pain is not always personal. Suffering is not always personal. In a way, it is part of life, but we can draw on inner resources to face it with courage and dignity and compassion. But digging a wisdom well is not a quick fix drive through, right? Perhaps it asks us to be prepared to be wrong about the way we see things. So there's this attitude of, oh, did I create this with my thoughts? And now the deeper truth shows up, melts my heart, gives me back some sense of home and peace with deep compassion, and literally shakes up the way I see things. And we are going through times. And you said, like your own family sometimes, like this friend that was with me in this armed robbery. His name is Glenn Douglas. We were just saying the other day, we felt like our lives prepared us for the last few years with lockdowns and the world turned upside down because we were much more resilient in the face of it because we'd been through so much. But what I saw is a lot of people having a crisis of faith because the things they were clinging to suddenly crumbled. You couldn't just put bumper stickers over things anymore. You couldn't just grab a little thought or a little sentence that sounded good, because we were all put through the wringer, right? We were collectively, we were put through a spin cycle. And the best and the worst of what it meant to be a human being showed up all over the place. And I think that's an opportunity for us to really all wonder, are we operating from this surface mind that is very much about flag planting? And very, it's going to be driven from fear, and it's going to be driven from this survival consciousness? Or are we prepared to send that bucket deeper to suddenly see things differently? And one more quick example, and I say this, but of course these things are like epic in scale, in a way. This friend, Glenn Douglas, when two years after he was shot, the same gang that had terrorized our whole suburb. I actually drove into the suburb the one morning and I suddenly felt safe. And I knew that they'd been caught. And I phoned him and he said, cole, they've caught this gang and they want me to go in id at a police lineup. And I just wished him well. And he told me the story afterwards. He was nervous. I mean, he lost his leg. His life was. Now he's now somebody who can't put a light bulb in easily anymore. He can't have a big dog because it knocks him off his feet. And he's a big. Yeah, I mean, Glenn told me the story afterwards. He said, cole, I can't tell you what happened. I was iding the man and it wasn't in a very sophisticated way. They didn't have a glass protection or anything. He was literally in the room with these men, looking them in the eye. Like, literally, you could share breath with them, these men that had done this. And he says he was looking in this man's eyes, and he suddenly saw with different eyes, and he saw this man's history. He saw his fear because he was frightened and angry and feeling all that savage. A typical, normal human response, actually. Your parts of your brain kick in and the chemicals kick in and you go into that survival space. And then something broke through that. And he saw with wisdom, and he started sobbing. And the policeman came up to him and wanted to comfort him because the policeman thought he was having trauma. Meantime, he just felt love for this man that had, like, shot him seven times. You can't make up this stuff. You really can't. And he hugged this man and told him, I forgive you. And when he left that room, he still had to face him. He's 20 years later, and he still has phantom pains. And there's a massive, massive. It's not been easy. One day. He has built a coaching career, and he's one of my top coaches and trainers, but that's the opportunity. And I'm giving you extreme versions, but every day we have this opportunity.

[27:29] Sam: This seems like a really good time. She were talking about with the pandemic to shift a little bit, and you're talking about how people face adversity to talk to. My very favorite thing in the whole world, which is the Enneagram. As you know, I was introduced to the Enneagram just a few months before the world was turned upside down. And I had a little bit of knowledge about what mine was. I had done online tests, which you've said, but I can confirm also are not always accurate. Mine happened to be, but my husband, one of my kids, not accurate. I'm finding now that I've learned your system, there's so much more to it. But I had kind of this piece of just the fun stuff with the Enneagram before I went in. And then the pandemic started, and I was like, why is this so hard for me? And something told me, I will use your words, wisdom. But something was kind of niggling in the back of my brain, like, maybe you should figure out why this is so hard. And so I really started reading more about it, and I was like, oh, okay. So the goal for me is to learn how to be quiet in my own brain. And so the literal world is forcing me to sit by myself right now. And that's why it feels so hard, because that's the place I avoid. And so I kind of leaned in and my whole business ended up changing. And that's when I found you guys and started doing the coursework that I did. Something that occurred to me. You mentioned saying yes at the deepest level of chaos, saying yes to improving it and changing it and choosing inspiration over desperation. So I want to eventually get to kind of like, are there Enneagram types? How have you seen that? And I'm going to ask you to lay a little groundwork for the Enneagram for the listeners as well. How have you seen that particular piece play a part in the last three years on how people handle that time of chaos?

[30:00] Colleen: Brilliant. Brilliant. And of course, I have utmost respect for your knowledge and your skills. And I'm so super excited to see you just blossoming in your role as a coach. And so thank you. And I'm very pleased that we can have this opportunity to share with people because the Enneagram, when taught well, the way that you've now discovered and what you're doing as well, when it's taught well, when it's facilitated well, when it's coached with depth, it does give us these profound insights. So I'll start with this. I think many of us are trying to solve personality. I don't think personality can be solved. I think it can only be understood. And like an apple tree, you can't solve an apple tree, but you can help it grow. And once we know our types, once we have depth of understanding around our enneagram type, it's almost like now we know the pattern of the personality and we have understanding. And that understanding means I now know what to give this personality to help it to grow. I also know why it struggles under certain circumstances. Just like I actually do have two small apple trees in my garden, which were gifted to me because an apple tree symbol is a part of my teachings for the true, authentic self or the way we designed. So I've now needed to learn how do I look after these apple trees? Knowing what kind of soil they like, how much water they need, et cetera. So when we know our types, we can cultivate our own growth. We can also inspire others. We can help others to grow. Our family, our friends, our colleagues, and even professionally like yourself, really guiding folks and showing up to be that partner in their journey of self discovery. So, yes, I think it is important to have some fundamentals in place. One of the reasons that the Enneagram is so cluttered, I'm going to just say with confusion and where folks think that they have to memorize all these lists of words to figure it out is because there's a lack of understanding of how the enneagram types are formed in the first place. So core teaching takeaway for everyone listening is to use what we call the three personality pearls metaphor. It's an inner life skills teaching to remember that a little grain of sand irritates an oyster. And the oyster creature then coats this grain of sand with layers of mother of pearl. And eventually you have this beautiful pearl formed. And so that grain of sand is the reason for the pearl. If we understand the grain of sand in each Enneagram type's personality pearl, we don't have to memorize lists. We don't get confused about outward behavior, what we do, because now we understand why we do what we do. So folks that are interested in the enneagram, as you've seen as well, is they get confused because, well, I do that. I do that. Does that mean I'm. That type means how all nine types can do the same things. We can all do similar things, but why we do it, we have to look deeper and see this underlying grain of sand. So under duress, under stress, there's some default setting, so to speak. Jumping to another metaphor now is like an operating system. So types eight, nine, and one we call the red poles. That's the classic Enneagram triad that's often labeled the gut types or the anger types. They have a default setting to push back and resist change to reality. And this is not done in a mind way or a heart way. It is a physically felt gut response. So our eight, nines and ones during times of stress and when the earth is sort of shaking beneath us, metaphorically or literally, the first response is a physically felt gut resistance with some degree of a mild gur like rumble in the jungle irritation all the way to full blown anger or rage. And this pushback is what our eight, nine, and ones are facing every day, whether it's big trauma or small things like having to do something. When you look at our two, three, and four, what we call the green pearls, their sense of intelligence is the heart, which is emotional need. So when they're under duress, what you find is there is this combination of it hurts in the heart. So the heart and emotional need is triggered. What do I need emotionally? And a big driver is I want to be seen in a way that doesn't trigger shame that I'm not embarrassed about. And therefore, I'm going to project an image that portrays that I am the way I want people to see me. So when our green pills, two, threes and fours face difficult times, there's the pain of the event, there's the struggle of the event, but there is another struggle happening in their heart because they're almost observing themselves through other people's eyes and showing a mask of, I want you to see this part of me while I'm trying to cope with this event. And that is almost like a double layer of trauma in a way, because you're going through a pain, but you want to show people a specific part of you, and you don't want to show them maybe what's really going on inside of you because that will feel embarrassing. So maybe a two on the enneagram is trying to act strong during times of trouble and not show you that they're actually really tired or sad. A three is trying to just move the dial forward and find solutions and doesn't want to look like they're failing. And a four can show you pain, but it's often theatrical pain instead of the real issue. And then our five, six, and seven, who are more mind types, they're already set up by default to try and find stable ground and to find security. And they're using thoughts categorization, and they're defaulted to divide things up with almost like flag planting of the mind, polarizing things, categorizing things. It's either this or it's that and looking for patterns. So now when the spin cycle of life hits, our five, six, and seven defaults to the mind, really creating additional stress. That torture chamber really going on full volume and trying to make sense of chaos. So your blue poles are really deep in the but why? And trying to split up a mind comprehension of what's going on. Why is this happening? How do I make sure it's not happening? And that can sometimes be useful. I mean, the mind is certainly helpful, but it also can make things worse because the mind is like a helpful app, and it's a very good servant, but a terrible master. I hope that gives you the little overview that answers your question, Sam.

[38:36] Sam: That was huge for me because the tests that you can find online, they will tell you based on your score which triad you ended up in, but it doesn't get into the why you're there. And when I started doing your coursework, I'm a person and you're talking about these triads. And I was like, gosh, she's talking about this gut triad. Maybe I was mistyped because I have my entire life said, I trust my gut. I trust my gut. But the more I learned from you, it wasn't. That's just a word. That's just a word. It was my intuition, and it was coming from my head. It was really coming from my headspace and started to really recognize that. And you so beautifully talk about, because everybody can feel anger and shame and fear, but what's the last thing to go? What's the last thing to go? And that really kind of nailed it for me. And a funny story. I have a very dear friend who is a Reiki master, and she was doing Reiki on me, and it was so fascinating. So anyway, she gets to the end of mine, and she said, was there anything you noticed when I was doing it? And I said, it's funny. When you were up at my head, I thought I was falling asleep, but I wasn't. But I kept seeing an eye, and her jaw dropped. And I said, what? And she said, when I was at your head, she said, it's really rare in women, your young energy, which is the fire energy, which is that. She said, I was drenched in sweat. It was very hard to control your head energy. I've never had anybody respond with like, they actually saw the third eye, which for anybody listening, maybe you believe this, maybe you don't. But it was a very real experience. And so I've kind of pulled that into my learning of this whole process, too. I'm like, okay, so that makes sense. And actually, my husband, who is an Enneagram eight, but he's like my yin. He's my grounder, which he can get very passionate about things, but he ends up being always the wise, grounded one. So it was so important to learn that, because I think we grow up hearing words that we think mean the same thing to everybody. And in the world of the enneagram, it doesn't. And paying attention to that becomes so important. So within the enneagram, and if we talk about the period during COVID or anytime some sort of trauma or challenge occurs, are there particular Enneagram types that you have seen maybe have a harder time getting to that place of inspiration?

[42:24] Colleen: Good question.

[42:24] Sam: Or does everyone have an occasion where they're going to struggle with it? Which is probably the right answer, but are there some that kind of tend more towards pulling up out of that?

[42:35] Colleen: So I think that is a good question. And it's very common for us to think about, is there a type that would be more of this, less of that, more compatible, less compatible, more suitable for this, more suitable for that, more likely to struggle with this, less likely and perhaps a more well rounded approach, which I'm glad you're pulling into the conversation, Sam, is to think of every type again as this sapling that can grow into a full grown apple tree. And so it really depends on the level of growth of the type, actually, rather than the specific type. We can say that each of the types is likely to struggle with certain things and certainly will interpret stress, trauma, struggle with the default setting. So that's an interesting line of inquiry we might want to go down, just touch on each type and how they might struggle, for example. But a higher functioning type that has access to their intuition. Because all nine types, right, just what you said earlier. Absolutely. All types can access intuition. And gut instinct is different to intuition, the way we're using that word. So a lower functioning type will struggle with everything. They'll struggle with compassion, with Understanding. And the worst of that Enneagram type shows up. The higher functioning types are accessing their wholeness. They're more empowered. They're more enlightened. They're collapsing what we call the inner polarities. So every type tends to have a primary, what I call a primary polarity, which is a push pull dynamic inside of the personality and lower types. The distance between those polarities is like a grand canyon. It's vast. Whereas the higher expressing types have literally worked to collapse that polarity, consciously or unconsciously. Of course, the gift of knowing the enneagram and working with an Enneagram coach like yourself is that once you know your type, you can start to collapse that pendulum, that polarity. You can actually use the enneagram as a map for growth instead of just a diagnostic tool. Oh, you're a seven. I'm a nine.

[45:15] Sam: Well, and it was this massive light bulb moment for me when I was doing the coursework with you for my particular enneagram. So an enneagram seven will try to turn whatever chaos it is into fun. There's spontaneity. They want freedom, all of these things. Well, like during COVID not a lot of freedom. Didn't have freedom to go do all of the things all of the time. And this part I didn't know. Right at the beginning of COVID I didn't know this part. And so I was responding with, hey, I'm reaching out to all my college girlfriends. Let's start doing Zoom happy hours. Three nights a know, my whole family had a happy hour, and we would get on Zoom. Anything I could do to keep connecting outwardly, I managed with a dear friend of mine who lives in my neighborhood she's a two. She and I always have a blast together, and she has a very small bubble. It was her and her son. And she was definitely getting sort of lonely working at home all the time. So we very deliberately got her into our social bubble quickly so I could be like, all right, come up to the house. I'm doing drinks on the patio. Because we were really kind of losing ourselves. And then what was happening to me during that time was before I knew that I was supposed to be seeking wisdom in a strength spot at an enneagram five, which is always, like, researching, looking for solutions. All of these things. My head just was spinning more and more and more and more. And my dad passed last year from Alzheimer's, and I was like, is this early onset Alzheimer's that I can't focus on anything, that I can't concentrate anything, that I can't remember anything? What is this? And started intuitively just researching. It was like something before I even knew I should be researching why this is this way. I started doing it, and then, lo and behold, I come across here in strength. You should be at five, and you should be doing research. And I was like, well, look at that. Thank you, universe. And really, I took control of my health instead of standing there going, boy, this is a really hard time. I can't deal with it anymore. Let's go do something fun. It was. This is a really hard time. I am not feeling well physically, emotionally, mentally. What can I do about it? At a time that the whole world was doing all this spinning out, and we saw huge increases in the people who were trying to access mental health care. And that's where we started getting all these online therapy things. I mean, there are still waitlists for five and six months to try to get in with somebody. I'm not suggesting that the Enneagram is the solution to all of it, but what a tremendous blessing it can be if you are able to objectively look at. These are my strengths, these are my weaknesses. And how can I pull this all in in a time of real struggle? It's such a beautiful thing. Now, a lot of companies are using Myers Briggs Gallup strengths finder, these other things. And as I go around talking about Enneagram, the big question is, well, can your enneagram change? And I know it can't. You can grow in strength. But what do you consider the best reason to choose enneagram in these different environments versus Myers Briggs versus strength mean? Because I'm going to tell you, my Myers Briggs has changed all that. Time. And I know people who took it. Before the pandemic, there were introverts. They came up as introverts and now they're like, no, I think I'm not an introvert. I needed that. And people kind of reevaluated things. What is your opinion on that compared to other systems out there?

[49:51] Colleen: Yeah, well, I've had the good fortune of working both in the BTC space with a lot of people like yourself who are individuals, building practices, growing their reach, coaches, guides, mentors, facilitators, as well as in the BTB space. I've had a lot of corporate clients, multinational clients. So I have seen a lot of application of these different assessment tools, putting them side by side. And I'm not going to probably give you a quick answer because I do think there's a time and place for everything. Back to another metaphor. If we were standing on a beach and there's a surfer standing next to, let's say, a meteorologist, they're both labeling the waves to serve their body of interest, to serve their careers, to serve what their use is for that. So the surfers got their own labels for the waves and the meteorologists has got theirs. And if we ask which one is better, if we try to compare them, it really is dependent on the use. And there's neither that is better or worse. It's just what are you going to do with that information? So the surfer needs to do that in order to pick the perfect wave and not get dumped in the sand and eat sand. Right. And the meteorologist trying to understand weather patterns, et cetera. So I think all of these really amazing systems. I'm a big fan of strengths finder. The Gallup work, Myers Briggs is an old tried and tested methodology. I think it definitely has its place. I don't think it's either or. I think it could be and both. And it depends. But where the Enneagram does shine is the map for growth. Just what you were saying earlier, your understanding that seven, and I'm going to use my language now again, typically Enneagram language is that a seven goes to five. And I sort of goes to with the emphasis. And I found that quite confusing and eventually adopted a different way of describing it. Let's imagine that seven needs to open a door to five as well as seven, of course, has a door open to one. So I know that sounds a little tricky, but every type is connected to two other types. And folks that are listening that are new to the Enneagram could maybe go and just quickly look online and find a diagram. So you want to imagine that there's these doorways, and these doorways are paths of energy and balance, really. So a seven, for example, is unbalanced when they only have a door to one open and they don't have a door to open to five. So this approach of not only just understanding the type, not only the gift of self awareness and compassion for, oh, my gosh, now I finally get me. I get you. And not only that, we can also put our personalities on the table now to look at them objectively, which is fantastic for difficult conversations, for tricky relationships at work and at home, but the gift of the Enneagram that people fall in love with all the time and why. I've seen entire companies, I've had clients, corporate clients, for 1520 years, where the enneagram is a part of their working culture is because of the map for growth. It's not an excuse for behavior. It's not, well, I'm a seven, therefore I get to be like this.

[53:48] Sam: Or a weapon. You can't have a manager weaponizing it, which can happen.

[53:53] Colleen: Totally correct. Totally correct. Instead, if we treat it as a map for growth and let's say there's a team and some personalities are really struggling with each other. And of course, that's very expensive for a business because people leave personalities. They don't leave businesses often. Sometimes they leave a business for a better career, et cetera. But often when they struggle with the personalities of their team, with their superiors, they leave. Now, when they have this understanding, they're not pointing at each other anymore. They're pointing at their personality. And with this knowledge, it can be okay. Now I understand. In order to get the most out of a team member who is a seven or a five, or, I need to meet them on the bridge of that understanding and cultivate what's going to help them to grow. And this is where the Enneagram really, I haven't found a match because you get that map. You now know, gosh, have I accessed too much? One, which means the seven suddenly becomes very hard on themselves, very angry. And things turn very quickly into kind of this angry, bitter mind energy, because one is an anger type, but it's channeled through the blue pole and forcing things into perfection boxes. Instead of opening a door to five, which for a seven is elevating out of the energy of enthusiasm and being swept up by things. So seven, opening a door to five is very much embodied in the word mindfulness. Being able to step back from the emotion to look at things objectively. And, yes, exactly what you said. To research, to observe all the strengths of five, balance the seven and helps the seven not fall into the spiral down that one. The door to one would result in.

[56:04] Sam: Yeah, I think it's really just such a gift. And with any of these modalities.

[56:19] Colleen: I.

[56:19] Sam: Think the biggest mistake, and I've experienced this as an employee, and I know you've talked about it in your coursework, the biggest mistake is almost introducing your organization to it and typing and then nothing else. As an employee, I've worked with someone. They did the strength finder, and I was there for it. I was way in doing all the research, getting the books. I thought it was so cool and expected the company to curate talent based on the knowledge. Except it was really only used with. If you didn't have these good numbers in these categories, we weren't even going to interview you. So they made a big deal out of it, and I made sure to talk about it in the interviews. And the woman who ultimately became my manager, I was like, this is how you're going to get the best out of me, right? Because now I've done all the work. If you do these things for me, then I will do all the things for you. And then she micromanaged me and gave me no freedom. And I was like, wait a. Wait. Why did you tease me with that? You've mentioned organizations where they do typing tests, and then someone says, it doesn't seem like me. And the response of the contractor is, well, sometimes the tests are wrong. What was the point?

[57:55] Colleen: Yeah, the other answer is yes, the tests can be wrong or no. Well, ultimately, we're all nine types. That's another. I'm like, how on earth? Yes, ultimately, all waves are part of the ocean. That is true, but it defeats the whole point of understanding that pattern of wave. And, yes, we're all absolutely unique as well. Like, every wave is unique, but there are patterns and there are archetypal patterns. I call Gustav Jung put forward this idea that there's only so many patterns of personality that you could call an archetype. So absolutely, Sam. It's a pity that many tools are just used, as I always wonder. They're used, but they're not fully implemented. It's like you got all this trouble to figure out it's an apple tree, but you still feed it the same as all the orange trees. You don't realize that, wow, I'm going to get maximum production from this apple tree if I know how to look after it. If I feed the garden well. It feeds me. And this is not just wisdom. This is common sense. It's care. And I suppose it's not people's fault if perhaps they don't know they can do more with it as well. Or they haven't gone all the way with the knowledge. Because the enneagram is very popular. So, of course, everyone jumps on the bandwagon. And a lot of folks are just using it as a quick way to talk it. When they don't have the depth of understanding that you have and they don't know how to open those doors. They don't understand that the enneagram and its most powerful is a map for growth. Just to share. Like for myself, my typing is a nine. So my personality is a nine. And I'm going to add one disclaimer there very important for me to put with this, that the enneagrams in you, you are not in your enneagram. So obviously the deep wisdom is that we are always more than our type. When I know that there's this design, there's this pattern of personality in me called a nine. In the early years of knowing about my enneagram, I could start to use that. It wasn't always easy. It was uncomfortable. But I could use that to go if I noticed that there was a. Because nine is connected to six and three for the listeners. So when I saw too much six showing up, which meant that as a nine, I sit on the couch and I procrastinate myself into a standstill. Because six, on its own can be. It's a mind type and can be very anxious. It can be the wheel spinning. And the way a nine experiences that door open to six is it's a heavy procrastination. It used to feel like all the boxes in my head broke open and there's this confusion and you can't see the wood for the tree, so you just rather eat ice cream and watch Netflix. And so what I would do then is I'd notice, am I in avoidance behavior because my mind's spinning, because I have the six? And then I used to ask myself what I need to do to open the door to three because I knew that would balance it. So I'd ask myself, what would a healthy three do right now? And then I would challenge myself to do that before 11:00 a.m. And that became my ritual. So I thought, okay, my default nine is send an email. But a healthy three, a very high functioning three, will pick up a phone. Imagine that. So I would challenge myself to pick up a phone. My default would be make a very long to do list, which is six and nine, in order to avoid actually doing it. And I would ask myself, what would a healthy three do now? Oh, a healthy three will get it done right and be competitive in a good way, not in a stand on others way. Take massive action. Be equal to being charismatic and being visible. So it became an accelerator. Wisdom had already given me, fortunately, a lot of clues. But this map became a massive boost to my personal growth, my career growth, and then, of course, sitting in front of clients, even if I wasn't sure what type they were, because we hadn't had that discussion, this lens of personality, it first of all broke me out of my own ivory tower of my own personality to start really appreciating. Oh, my gosh. Other people do fundamentally see life differently. They have completely different needs and back to the why. They have a different reason for behavior. And when I can appreciate that, I can start letting that be in the conversation, in the background, and even guessing. Okay, I think the person I'm talking to may be a red pole, possibly a one on the enneagram. What that meant is that I'm listening for them now. I'm reaching out to appreciate their language of personality, to build a bridge to them. And that can really, as you know, Sammy, it makes a huge difference to work, to relationship building, to ending the button pushing that, the painful button pushing that happens all day, every day.

[01:04:02] Sam: What would you consider the difference, for those who are not aware, between coaching and therapy and who is a good candidate for coaching?

[01:04:16] Colleen: Okay, so I have another metaphor. It's what I call a service mountain. So you picture a mountain and you picture that all of us, or let's just say many of us, are on a journey of growth that could be spiritual growth, career growth, business growth, but it's represented by the mountain. And the top of the mountain is where we get to where we want to go. So there's the summit. A mentor, a therapist, and a coach occupy a different position on the mountain. So a counselor, a therapist, sits at base camp, and they meet their client. They meet the person they are serving to talk to them about the path they have walked so far. Now, I do know that many counselors and psychologists, especially actually, since the rise of coaching, are also forward looking. So they don't want to be pigeonholed in that way. But they really are skilled and equipped to handle holding the space for the trauma of the past. So it's a modality that includes the path to the mountain that can go and excavate, that, that can hold a safe space for somebody to debrief, to desensitize, to really heal from the trauma of their journey to the mountain. At that point, the mentor, the trainer is at the top of the mountain. They're giving advice. They are saying, here is the way I found, here is the map to the river. Here's what I think you should pack to get over the river. So that's a transfer of knowledge, transfer of expertise, transfer of skill sets. Then what I call the pure coach, which is let's say the ICF International Coaching Federation coach, is somebody that walks with you up the mountain and is going to ask you to find your best solutions from within. An inner life skills coach can actually occupy all three. Not that we don't train counseling, but we do train counselors. We train mentors and guides and trainers. And we train pure coaching because we found it's really helpful for someone to be able to move between consultant, trainer, coach and to incorporate all their other skill sets. But pure coaching is empowering you to empower others without any advice giving, without telling what to do, helping someone to find the solutions from within. So that's the distinction. Like the clear distinction, anyone is a candidate for coaching if they are seeking change. If they are not seeking change, they either perhaps should be with the counselor at the bottom of the mountain, perhaps, for whatever reason. Really, coaches, if you think about what the word coach means, the root word, it came from wagon transport. So a coach was a way to take someone from where they are now to where they want to be. So that still is the essence of coaching. A coach is someone going to facilitate, help you to move from where you are now to where you want to be. So someone's only a candidate if they want to make progress, if they want to grow, if they want to make change.

[01:07:55] Sam: That's fantastic. I have one more kind of juicy question and then I do some fun stuff. But I'm going to hold this for our bonus episode and make sure that I ask the audience to come back for our bonus material in the next episode. Thank you so much, Colleen.

[01:08:19] Sam: A big thank you to the amazing Colleen Joy page of inner life skills coaching for her wisdom today. Don't forget to stop back for the bonus material. This podcast is sponsored by Marco Polusi Hair Care Marco's Collagen Color Guard collection is the best system for strong, healthy hair in any season. Please visit marcopalusi.com for more information and to sign up for exclusive tips, product information, and vip discounts meant for Moxie is the companion podcast to Moxie Mama by Sam Ditka. For more information at the blog or on working with Sam as a coach, please visit ww Moximama TV. The music the energy is courtesy of abhished music and can be found on iTunes.