College Parent Central Podcast

#148 Changing Vocabulary and Expectations in College

• Vicki Nelson, Lynn Abrahams, Elizabeth Hamblet • Season 7 • Episode 148

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 53:01

The transition from high school to college involves so many changes – and not all of them are obvious. In this episode, Elizabeth and Vicki explore the vocabulary and role changes that catch many families off guard – especially those families with a student who has a learning disability. Along the way, we clear up some common myths—why a 504 plan doesn’t carry over, why “entitled” becomes “eligible,” and why the college president is not the person to call about a grade dispute. We also share practical ways to build self-advocacy before move‑in. Parents can shift from doing for to doing with to letting go. Learning the changes in the language of college can help smooth what can sometimes be a rocky first year.

Thank you for listening!

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the College Parent Central Podcast. Whether your child is just beginning the college admission process or is already in college, this podcast is for you. You'll find food for thought and information about college and about navigating that delicate balance of guidance, involvement, and knowing when to get out of the way. Join your hosts as they share support and a celebration of the amazing experience of having a child in college.

SPEAKER_02:

My name is Vicky. I'm Vicky Nelson, and I am a professor of communication and former director of epidemic advising. And we have three girls that have to do with being a good idea.

SPEAKER_01:

My name is Lynn Abraham. I have to college one sometimes even meeting to a college or a second one and taking a living break.

SPEAKER_02:

And we'll probably be ready. We'd like to cover everything. And today we are going to talk very specifically about some changes in vocabulary. Now, we want to focus today on changes in vocabulary because Lynn Abrahams and I have done several episodes on lingo, just the terminology, the college terminology that you need to know because it feels like a different language, this jargon that we all use. And so there are those episodes. We'll link to those in the show notes. We also have a glossary on the website of um, I think we're at about 50 terms that you might want to know. There won't be a vocabulary test, but it might be helpful. But today we want to be a little bit more specifically in talking about some of those words, some of the vocabulary that changes between high school and college. And the idea for this episode actually came from an article that Elizabeth wrote on her website. And if you haven't discovered it, that's LD Advisory, and you should check it out if you have a student who needs accommodations, a student with learning differences. There's so much wisdom there. But it occurred to me that while the article that Elizabeth wrote was really about the changes in vocabulary for students with learning differences, um the it really applies to everybody. Some of these terms may apply, but the idea of making sure that you understand about changes in terms. So we're going to dig in and talk about those things in all kinds of different ways. Because if you aren't ready for a change in terminology, you may not be ready for some changing expectations as you move from high school to college. And that's really the key. It's not just about the words, but it's about what matters. So, oh, that was a long introduction. I'm sorry. So let's actually start by talking about changes generally, and then we'll get into some of those specific terms. Um, so I'm going to let Elizabeth get a word in edgewise here. Um, talk a little bit about why these changes happen.

SPEAKER_04:

So that is sort of, you know, the root of this is really the laws. Um so this is a very misunderstood part of this transition for students, you know, as you said, and it's not just, and I use the word learning disabilities very specifically, um, not because I um, you know, disagree with the term differences, but we were talking about legal protections. And so they are we're talking about the Americans with Disabilities Act and also Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. Um, so in addition to the learning disabilities and ADHD, which are my specialty, um meant students with mental health disabilities, what's probably more obvious to people is students with physical disabilities, sensory disabilities, um, you know, covers anybody who has a disability. Um, but it's different laws or parts of the law as your students move from high school to college with a disability. So students who have an IEP in K-12 have that under more alphabet suit, IDEA, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. And it only applies to K-12 schools. So once a student graduates from high school, or in the case of some students, they they never complete a high school diploma, but they age out of that system. They no longer legally have uh, you know, an enforceable IEP. Now, you know, for students who age out and have more impactful disabilities move into you know a field that I don't know anything about, developmental disabilities and and and things like that. But um, for students who are coming to college, um, that IEP has no legal bearing anymore. It is not enforceable at the college level. We are not subject to IDEA. Now, if students have a 504 plan, then um people think, oh, well, gee, Elizabeth, you just said it's the same law, right? But K-12 schools are covered under subpart D, and um post-secondary schools are covered under subpart E. And it is a vastly different set of uh mandates. And so it's a really important point to get right because I have done professional development programs for teachers who've said that their district moves everybody from a 504 plan. I'm sorry, an IEP um in high school to a 504 plan before they graduate because the people running the district mistakenly believe that 504 plans are valid at college. And the same thing, they expire when students graduate, they're not legally enforceable, we are not bound to them. So that's it. And so, you know, you said that you know, it's it's important to understand what and why. Um, as I said, section 504, um it actually was written first, so it has the majority of the specifics for colleges for what they have to do and also what they don't have to do. And so when you look at the text, it is you know much, much briefer than section 504, uh subpart D, and certainly briefer than IDEA. And, you know, as to why that is the case, I have my own theory um about you know, the the politicians who wrote it, members of Congress, and perhaps understanding. I just saw a stat that said that um I think in 2022, only 38% of the US population was attending college. And so college is not mandatory, right? It's an option for people, um, whereas K-12 education is not. So, my only way of understanding it is perhaps you know, Congress did not see a reason to place as many demands on colleges as it did on K-12 schools because not everybody goes, and you don't have to go to college if you don't want to. I've never seen an explanation for this, but anyway, and the ADA um, because I was just working on a presentation, they're only it the word post-secondary only appears in the ADA twice. Um, and again, my understanding, and none of this, by the way, I should say is legal or medical advice. Please see a qualified person for that. But you know, I've been doing this a long time. Um, the ADA was written in 1990, I think, to sort of strengthen the protections for students uh for individuals with disabilities across our population. And so again, most of the guidance is in 504. So, with all of that out of the way, um it means some real differences for students, but also, and you and I, you know, and Lynn and Sarah talk about this too, the expectations for college students are different than they are in K-12. We really expect students to be self-sufficient, we expect them to be self-determined and independent in their functioning. And maybe to the surprise of some parents of students with disabilities, it we pretty much hold students with disabilities to the same expectations. You know, the responsibilities that they have to take for themselves are the same. And so I think that um that's why I wrote that post too, was to, you know, kind of give you a sense of how with those changes in the laws, there are changes in the way disability services does does its job, um, and also just in in what students are expected to take care of themselves.

SPEAKER_02:

So I I I think that's really an important distinction, that that high school versus college expectation um for students. And as I listen to you uh talk about these the differences in the two laws, which I I know this is not my field. I mean, I work with college students all the time, and and many of them have disabilities and accommodations, but that's not my expertise. But it wasn't until I understood that there were these two different laws, um, one covering K through 12 and one cover it covering college, that suddenly it made sense to me of where these differences are and why why we shouldn't have that expectation that things will just carry over the the way it does. So then I think as I'm listening to you explain that, I think it's important too that parents understand not sort of fall into that trap of thinking, well, either either my student is going to be be able to carry over the accommodate the program, the accommodations that that um they've had in high school, or they will have nothing.

SPEAKER_04:

Um, you know, that's such an important point. Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up because occasionally it doesn't happen as often as it used to, but occasionally somebody's gotten bad information um and been told that unless you have, you know, what what most people think of as a disability, you're blind, the student's deaf, the student uses a wheelchair or a walker, um, that it unless they fall into that category that there are no accommodations. And that is not true. And in fact, again, in in combing over um the definition of disability in both of these laws, it includes you know, learning, it includes thinking, it includes concentrating. So um all of those things are are covered as long as students are found eligible um by their college. And and that's one surprise to families is that just because a student has received accommodations in K-12 doesn't mean that the college has to find them eligible.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Okay, so that so that moves us into um actually getting a little bit specific in terms of talking about um about some of the shifts of terminology. And you know, just to start it off, uh, because then I want you to talk about eligible, but um, you know, it occurred to me really so so often as I talk to both you and Lynn who who have this expertise in in um the students who have disabilities, I I'll I find you saying things that I'm saying, yes, but that applies to all students. That applies to all students. Yeah, sure. So so this idea of um different terms um and sort of pairing up with different expectations, one of the ones that I notice a lot of students when they come to college um confuse is the idea of um their high school principal and the college president.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_02:

It really is fascinating to me because they see those as the same because the president is sort of the top of the makes so much sense pyramid in college, and the principal is in high school. So students will sometimes say, you know, they're having a problem with a teacher, or they're they you know, they think a grade was unfair or something, and they say, I'm gonna go talk to the president. Um, or my or I've heard the college president say, I get these calls from parents who say, you know, my students don't think this grade was fair. When actually, you know, in our structure, that would be the dean or the provost or someone who's charging our academics. So that's really just a different term, um, different person, top of the ladder there. Um, but that confusion of the terms really puts a student at a disadvantage in understanding how the place works. So then to get into some of the specific terms you were talking about, and you just mentioned they might not be eligible. So could you talk about a little bit of the difference between being eligible, which is a college term, and entitled, which I think is the K through 12?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, and so uh I do I just want to circle back to something that you you said, you know, that that it leaves students at a disadvantage. Um, so for you know, this this whole episode was inspired by my blog. Um, I have spent, you know, the last I think it's 15 years now writing blog posts, um, but also, you know, now three editions of my book, um, which is all about you know these changes at the college level and and um how to prepare students for them most often because what I realized and what the research shows when we look at it, you know, and again, I'm I'm very focused here on students with disabilities, is that um because some students are not informed about the changes, um, they do not register for accommodations when they get to college. And, you know, col accommodations are certainly not the only key to success, as the research also shows us, but it's it's one of them. But um it's been my passion over the last 15 years, you know, trying to find ways to educate people. So I'm just gonna take a moment and just plug seven steps to college success: a pathway for students with disabilities, um, for for people who really want to dive more deeply into, you know, we're we're gonna talk about some stuff today, but it'll have more context within the context of my book.

SPEAKER_02:

So anyway, we'll put that in the show notes.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you. So, and it matters because to me, you know, high school is why we call it college prep. And how can we properly plan and prepare if the assumption is, and it's an under understandable assumption if you've never had access to other information, that things are gonna go the same way that they did in K-12, that you know, this this system will be in place and that your kids just show up and everything's ready to go for them. And that's that's just not the case. And so eligibility versus entitlement, so you know, um, it's not exactly a perfect um comparison here, but um student, my understanding, again, not legal advice of IDEA is you know, students are entitled to um specialized instruction, specialized environments. Um they schools have to look for and identify students who might have a disability, assess them to see if they are, and then you know, if they are found eligible, uh, do a huge range of things for them. Um they are, you know, they create plans for students and set goals and objectives and they monitor and they report to parents on on students' progress. Now, what's important is um students, again, as I said, may have been found eligible, but that doesn't also entitle them to uh accommodations of college. So we're not necessarily questioning the you know a student's disability diagnosis when they come to us, you know. So people say, Well, you said my student didn't have a disability, and that's not necessarily um what it is, but uh the legal definition of of disability includes the word substantial limitation that the that they have to impose. So a student may have mild ADHD. And when we look at the evidence of impairment in daily life activities, we may decide that we don't believe that they are substantially limited. And so um it's just most students are gonna go to college and uh you know find that they are found eligible. But I just like to raise the the possibility to people that their students may not be found eligible at college and to to um just alert them that they are not entitled to be found eligible and to receive accommodations just because they have a history of that previously. And so there's not much you can do about it as parents, except be aware of that, for instance, um some of the students who have been identified with a learning disability because they have a substantial discrepancy between parts of their functioning. You know, uh perhaps their reading is relatively weaker than their verbal uh abilities, according to the testing. If the reading abilities still fall in the average range, there are colleges that may not find your student eligible because they don't believe that they are substantially limited as compared to the general population, which is how we are to assess those things. So that's just something to think about. Um, and there was another point I was gonna make, and we'll see if it comes back.

SPEAKER_02:

It probably will. Who knows? So that to me, uh and and tell me if I'm off on this is uh you know, I was you using the term learning differences at the beginning. I I'm never sure, you know, what's what. So it it it sounds to me as though the student who perhaps has the substantial and limiting um thing would would that would be a learning disability. But a student who has, as you describe it, mild something, that would be more of a learning difference.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And so, you know, difference is a really positive term, and I and I don't want to be seen as somebody who isn't trying to help build the self esteem of these students. Um, and I think it's a well intentioned term, but I have also seen, you know, reports where I think the psychologist, you know, the clinician has used it to describe what is only a difference. And not a disability. And sometimes there is evidence of a disability and they use it to be kind. They think it's a gentler term. And so, you know, it's the Americans with Disabilities Act. It's not the Americans with Differences Act. And so I don't say this to diminish, you know, the intent of it when it's when it's used, you know, to be more positive. But the fact is sometimes students do not have a disability. Oh, I oh, it did come back to me. Now, ADHD is one of those situations where it's just we're all over the map, meaning we meaning my colleagues at the at the post-secondary level in disability services, as far as what we require in what's called documentation. Um, so while we're throwing vocabulary around, documentation is a fancy word for the paperwork that your student will submit to us when they, once they're in college and they have registered and they have a student ID number, um, when they register with the disability services office, um, we will most likely ask them for documentation of their disability, which, you know, for learning disabilities, more obviously, is um often they'll require whatever was the most recent testing. For sensory disabilities, it might be a form uh for whoever, you know, identified or treats them. Medical disabilities, the same thing, uh, mental health disabilities, again, you know, we're looking for a professional to say, you are a student with a disability. This is how I have identified it here, or what your functional limitations are. Now, ADHD can be diagnosed by a variety of professionals, including a pediatrician and a well visit. And so families may find that this the school that their student wants to attend requires testing, which they've never needed before, like the kind that is given to students for learning disabilities. Um, and the college is allowed to do that. And students who do not submit it are we don't have to find them eligible for accommodations. Um, and even the case with autism, depending upon what kinds of accommodations they are requesting, if they're academic, the college may look for um objective documentation, meaning not just sort of qualitative reports about their, you know, the effects of their autism on their social interactions and things, but they may be looking for evidence that they are actually substantially limited when it comes to academic skills.

SPEAKER_02:

So complicated.

SPEAKER_04:

And so parents could oh, you didn't think we were having a simple conversation.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I mean, that's why we're having the conversation because it is so complicated, and anything we can do to try to help uh, you know, unpack it a little bit for parents is important. So then at that point, parents could and students could request testing, they would have to do that on their own and then bring the test results to the college.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm so glad you reminded me that I forgot to say that. So once students graduate, and even if they are in K-12, the school does not have to test them simply because the K-12, the high school doesn't have to test them simply because they found out the college that they attend will require it. Um, so that's again a legal quagmire I don't really want to get into, but also colleges are not required to test students who present to them. Um, so that is something to keep in mind. And on my website and on my YouTube channel, I have you know a written post on the site and on my YouTube channel a video of how to find documentation requirements on disability services sites. Um it's not usually that hard, but I realize it can some of these sites can be overwhelming. And so I'll try to help you, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

So we'll also we'll link to that one as well. All right. I want I want to move on because there are a couple more, um, a couple more that I think it really is important to talk about. Um so what about the difference between what in high school might be called their a student's plan? You mentioned a plan earlier versus um in college a letter of accommodation.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yeah, this is really important. And actually, if you don't mind, I want to back us up to coordinator versus case manager because I think, I mean, these these conversations sort of dovetail. So um in high school, your student has a case manager. And certainly when it comes to IEPs under IDEA, that case manager has a lot of responsibilities, right? So they're they are writing um annual plans where they set goals and objectives, they identify who's gonna provide these services, they have to report on progress to the parents. Um, they liaise or stay in contact with um teachers and when necessary, administrators. So college coordinators don't have any such responsibilities. Um, it is a very, very different kind of job. And be aware, you know, you mentioned um, you know, that a president of the university is very different than a principal of a high school. Um now what's interesting is a disability services coordinator might also be the only person and therefore the also the director of their own one-person office. Um, and so that's not the reason why they don't have the same responsibilities, but to kind of put this in context, it might be the disability services director is the sole employee of that office and has a caseload of literally hundreds of students. Now I was just looking at some data from a 2022 survey of my colleagues, and it said the average caseload was 135 students.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow.

SPEAKER_04:

But the range is quite wide. So um at the college level, the person that your student interacts with around their accommodations may be called a coordinator. Um and so it might be an access coordinator, disability services coordinator. Now, there are places that call those folks case managers, but I do think that they just have much different responsibilities. So here's what case managers generally, you know, with exceptions, always possible, don't do. They do not set goals and objectives for your students. Um, and this is where our other vocabulary comes in. So high schools, as I said, have to write a plan with all of those details in them. What we provide instead is a notification or letter of accommodations. And so, to give you a sense of how different this is, um your student actually has to initiate this whole process for contacting our office, registering. They can find that process online, it will be obvious. Um, I hope I should say. They're gonna fill out a form because welcome to college. You what and you know, your future adult world, you must fill out a form for absolutely everything, including for our office, right? And that form is gonna ask your student lots of questions, um, including what accommodations are you requesting? Why do you think you need them? Why do you um why have you used them in the past? How are they helpful? Um, again, on my form, if you if you're already taking notes, Vicky, I'll add to that. I there's a free resource um that I offer that kind of helps students prepare for that um questionnaire. And they can, you it's a good way to assess how much self-knowledge your student has. That's it's a Google form because it's disability accessible that way. And so it's but there's a link from my site. Um and so uh if your student and see all these words come around, right? If your student is found eligible, um, my colleagues do things a variety of different ways. A number of them have, you know, commercial products, these programs where your student will get a notification from their coordinator saying, hey, yes, we've approved you, we've approved you for these things. Remember, they're also not entitled to the same accommodations just because we found them eligible. Um, they have to, you know, colleges get to determine which accommodations we think are are supported by their documentation. Um, and then the way some of my colleagues set this up, they log in and it says, um, here are all your accommodations, and students can select. I want Professor Nelson to know about all of my accommodations, and she clicks those those boxes, or I only want Professor Nelson to know about these accommodations, and then they send the notification. Or I don't even want Professor Nelson to know I have accommodations and they don't have to send them. Um, sometimes our office sends students a PDF of a letter, and the student is responsible for forwarding it to their professor. And so um, as you can see, none of this involves any plans. Um, and the student plays a very important role in communicating with their professors that they have been approved. And so um we're not monitoring your students to see if they go to class, which becomes an issue in college when they are not literally locked in a building and if caught in a hallway, you know, will get sent back to class. Um, we are not checking in with their professors to see how they're doing. We are not looking at their grades. We often, some offices don't have access to their grades. It's just not part of what you know the school thinks we we need for their privacy. Um we are not providing progress reports, certainly to parents, but not even to students. Students are back to the expectations, expected to know how they're doing. Now, um, I know that it's not true of you, Professor Nelson, but sometimes professors don't get around to their grading very quickly after collecting papers or exams. Never me. Never me. No, I wouldn't think so. Um, but we aren't in a position to, for instance, make sure a professor grades your paper so you can see how you're doing. You know, students have to self-advocate for all of these things. They want to know how they're doing, they can check their grades in the portal. Um, if the grades aren't in the portal, they can show up at office hours and say, hey, I was wondering when you might grade my paper. Yeah. But it's we are not planning. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02:

And just putting the the responsibility on the students and students needing to be proactive uh for so many things. I mean, it's not just students with learning disabilities, it's all students. And it's one of the things that I see as a professor in the classroom all the time, that I see students struggling to make that transition, struggling to understand that difference of you're not going to necessarily, you know, so I'll I do grade my papers and I I will post grades on the on the portal and students can see them. But I think there's for many of them still an expectation that if I'm in trouble, right, if my grades are coming out to the average of it being kind of low, the professor will reach out to me. So as long as I haven't heard anything from the professor telling me I better shape up, I must be doing okay. So and and and that idea of well, I you know, I wasn't told to come and see the professor in office hours, so I don't go to office hours. Those are just a couple of examples. But I think that that shift to be to self-advocacy, to being proactive, um, is a is a struggle for a lot of students, no matter where they are on any um learning disability, learning difference, no issues at all. Uh it's a it's a tough one.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, and that's so interesting. I I I mean, when I was uh writing the book, there are there are some schools that have, I don't know what they call them, like alerts that go out perhaps after midterms. Um, but what's so interesting about them is at least as I understood them, and and certainly like not at every college, is are the professors even required to use it? So the idea that professors are looking after students in that way, some certainly are, but that's just their choice. But we are not looking after them either. If your student has um a problem with the professor, if it's related to your accommodations, yes, that's where a case manager would, that's their role to step in. But again, um the student has to alert us that there's a problem. Um, they do not, uh, they should not rely on professors to say to to disability services, you guys approved an accommodation, and here's why it can't work in my class. Um, it's gonna be the student's responsibility to come back to us and to do so in a timely manner so that we can take care of it. Um, you know, sometimes people show a lot of flexibility with deadlines and um, you know, and especially administrative ones for students with disabilities, but they may not find that um at the college level. And so um I write for a journal that looks at Office for Civil Rights decisions um as part of what they do when students complain about their college to the to OCR. And I've been astounded at sometimes a student, you know, doesn't say anything about not having gotten a note taker or the professor not having given them the approved extended time until after the semester is over. Um, and OCR is, you know, OCR will ask the college to address it moving forward, but they're not gonna require the college to let the student have a do-over or make the professor adjust the grade. Um, this is this is this is the big leagues. And I know students are only 18. Um, and we know their prefrontal cortex is not gonna be done for another 10 years or so. But I think sometimes because we've been flexible with students and adults have provided a lot of support, it can be hard to see the areas where they're gonna need to really step up. And that's why this conversation is so important because knowing these things, parents at home can start to work on putting more responsibility on their students and stepping back slowly so that you know they are they're accustomed to handling things. They have systems in place for meeting deadlines. Um, they learn how to communicate with authority figures in an appropriate and and for them effective way.

SPEAKER_02:

So that's a perfect transition into really what was going to be my my next question, probably my last, you know, sort of area that I think we want to touch on. And that is understanding now, perhaps, that um that that there are significant differences between high school and college in terms of what students are entitled to or eligible to, and and the oversight, perhaps, that that the disabilities office um is or is not uh expected to give to students, uh, and that so much more of this responsibility falls now on students' shoulders. Are there things that, and you just touched on some, but are there things that parents can be doing to help students get ready? Uh, because that not only will that help the student be ready, but it as a parent, if I have some confidence that my student is ready, I'm going to worry less. So, what what can parents do to help students get ready for this shift?

SPEAKER_04:

I think, you know, sort of just having a mindset of building uh their independence as much as possible. And I can take so many different forms. And um, I think we're gonna hopefully get around to interviewing my friend Kelly Challen pretty soon, who is a transition specialist for students with disabilities, but has a lot of really helpful advice that, you know, much more specific than I can provide, probably, about how to work on those skills. So, you know, it seems really obvious to people in FACIL, but you know, are they getting themselves up for school in the morning? Are you constantly doing that for you? Are you rescuing them by showing up at the high school with the stuff that they forgot? Are you reminding them about upcoming things? Are you checking in with them about projects that they've told you are due? Um, are they uh you know, making their own doctor's appointments and figuring out their um their schedules by themselves? These are all things um that are gonna be necessary when they get to college. Um, you know, you said, um, well, the professor didn't tell me I had to come in. Some of your students are not going to class. So the professor is not even seeing them. Yes. Um, and it's not, it's not there. And this is, you know, when we talk about the expectations, right? We do expect them to go to class. And look, I'm I'm not gonna be um uh a Pollyanna about it. Students over many, many years have said to me, professors don't take attendance, they don't care if you show up. If you're pretty confident about that, uh oh, okay. I mean, I don't know why you're there. It's you're spending the money or your parents' money to be there. But um, you know, it isn't professor's job to email your student and say, hey, I noticed you haven't been in class. Um, so when there is a challenge with your student and a and a teacher, are you the one who's calling? Are you coaching your student into how to send an email and an appropriate amount of time to wait? Or if they would rather talk in person, you know, talking to them about social norms, about you don't just walk up to somebody at the start of class when they are trying to get themselves organized. You ask about, you know, when is a convenient time for for us to talk about this? Um, and I laughed um when you talked about going to the president. There's a scene in whatever the Facebook movie is called, the social network, where um the the twins you get into the meeting with the Harvard president about their problem with with Mark Zuckerberg. And he's you know, essentially, what are you doing here? How did you even get an appointment? And it's a scene that's really stuck with me, like understanding that there are um systems in place and you often. Have to start in a certain place and you know move your way through the um the process without jumping to the end.

SPEAKER_02:

And you know, every everything you've just mentioned in terms of preparing um applies to all students. Here's you know, this is what I'm always saying. Right. Um, all of those things about emails and social understandings and you know, going to class and paying attention, all of that stuff, um, making your own doctor's appointments and all are things that we have for years been recommending that you know, the more that you can do with your student in high school, they will be ready and you will have the confidence in knowing they're ready. And actually, um, I will link in the show notes to um our ebook on you know something 60 tips for using the high school using high school to prepare for college. So things that parents can do to help students, you know, get ready. So um so they apply to everybody. Um, a couple of quick um sort of more specific questions. What about IEP meetings during high school and all? Should students be part of that?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I mean, I I have to say I'm a little bit of a um an outlier in this conversation because what's interesting is um there isn't the right parallel um at the college level for those meetings. And what I mean is, and this is part of this differences conversation we're talking about, when students register with us, it's and they may have to have a one-on-one meeting as a part of that intake process.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so I was going, that was gonna be another question. So you can combine the answers.

SPEAKER_04:

I've got to add to our list, Vicky. I have an interview of uh a video on my YouTube channel where a colleague and friend um who's a disability services director talked about those intake meetings and what kinds of questions he asks, what he thinks students should be asking him. It's not like a job interview where if your student says the wrong thing, they get nothing. It's just an opportunity to, you know, learn more about that student. Um let me see if I can figure out where we're going with that. Oh, so the the uh IEP meetings. So what I find ironic is I IDEA is all about individualization. And then we sort of make it like the only way to prepare students for this is to make them run their own IEP meetings. Now, you know, most teenagers would rather not sit in a room with a bunch of adults, and not to say that they shouldn't ever be taken out of their comfort zone, because college is all about being out of a comfort zone, right? Um, but I think that what they need is an understanding of how they came to be identified as a student with a disability, what that what their strengths are, because that's really, really important. Um, what is an accommodation for them? Because some of the research indicates in some places that they don't even realize that what's happening for them is an accommodation, um, so that they can clearly identify those. Um, and so the IEP meeting can be one of several ways to start preparing them for this stuff. I don't think they need to run their own meeting, as some people have suggested. Being present might not be a bad idea, but also, you know, to understand what people are are saying. But um, there is no parallel at the college level. And for parents, you know, it's important for them to know like we're not gonna have a bunch of meetings over your students' four years where we call all the professors in and say, and how is Elizabeth doing? Back to if they want to know, they can check the portal, and if it's not there, they can go to office hours. So um it's it's a whole new world. I mean, one thing you keep saying, and I and I have an addition to that, is that um we want parents to feel confident that their students are independent and and are ready. I really want students to feel that way. And what always worries me when I hear about a student getting a lot of supports, um, is that sorry, that is a very crabby cat who decided to be uh in the middle of our conversation. Um is that uh students recognize how much support they're getting for adults. And I I worry that it undercuts their confidence. Um when an adult is there at every moment to direct them and say, you know, when when tutors sit down and say, okay, here's what we're gonna do, instead of what do you have to do? Show me your planner, what uh plans do you have to meet this deadline? Um, then they're not building those skills when parents, you know, are not placing responsibilities. I mean, everything should be individualized, of course, but um there are parents who don't require students to take on any responsibilities at home. You know, darling, you just focus on your academics and we, you know, we'll take care of that. That's not building their capacity. Many students are capable of doing more than they are. Um, if we require it, we give them some direction. I mean, it seems dumb, but knowing how to do your laundry, um, and knowing that if you leave it in the machine, it will be moldy and damp and you'll have to wash it all over again. So um I think looking at the expectations that they're setting for their own students, and you know, parents love their students, and that's why they do all of this supporting of them. Um, but looking to see where there are things that their students could learn to do, teaching them how, scaffolding this experience, and then letting go. It's not always going to be perfect. I also forget towels in the washing machine and have to wash.

SPEAKER_02:

I was thinking, been there, done that.

SPEAKER_04:

So I think too, you know, when we are um looking at our students and we want them to do well and and and we're we're imagining this level of perfection that we should get them to. And that is gets in the way sometimes of parents letting go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And sometimes failure, yeah, you know, maybe failure with a small F rather than a capital F builds that muscle and builds the resilience muscle. So again, everything you're talking about applies to every single student.

SPEAKER_04:

You know, I we were one thing I want to mention too, we were talking about deadlines and and flexibility that people show for students. Um, and and I was thinking of a specific disability-related example, but it's also true for other students. At some colleges, housing stocks are limited. And so students may ask for an accommodation in housing, which, from you know, this is not part of my job, but from what I see in the conversations in my community, often students would like to have a room for themselves, a single room based on their disability. Um, if the college runs out of rooms that they can make available to students as a single um because a student missed the housing deadline, they are not going to necessarily kick a student out. Again, this is where we would think very hard about their eligibility for that accommodation, how uh substantial their limitation is because there are maybe other students who also want the same thing, and whether that is something that we have to require, you know, do. But we're not going to kick students out of their rooms because a student with a disability waited too long. Um, if there's limited housing, um, it's not uh an entitlement to get on campus housing as a student with a disability. It may be considered depending on the severity of the disability. But our our our you know students in the general population who miss the housing deadline also don't get rooms.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So I I'm trying to think, you know, you know, we've covered so much ground. I'm trying to think, okay, how do we how do we kind of sum this up at the end? I mean, I think I'm hearing um, you know, everything that parents can do to prepare students um so that both student and parent have some confidence that the student's going to be able to manage. And sometimes less is more, doing less, um, re redirecting, directing from the background rather than write up, you know, right, right up doing for, or you know, maybe you do with this, instead of doing for the student, you move toward doing with the student, and then you gradually move back and and and let them do it. Um, the importance of uh self-advocacy, and again for all students, self-advocacy and being proactive and and not waiting for someone to come to you because that's not not always going to happen. Um also uh and I think you talked about this at the at the very beginning, that each institution may be slightly different in what they do and how they handle things and um what they call things and and and the names, you know, but but that accuracy and that um that awareness and that sensitivity toward terminology, which is where we started. This was a vocabulary uh episode. Um, don't just don't just assume, ask questions, um, try to clarify, make sure it's not that you're assuming this term means this when that term means that, um, and just uh, you know, encourage your student to ask lots of questions and to know that things in college for all students, uh, and maybe especially for students with disabilities are going to be different. Yeah, everybody. And that those differences are connected to different expectations.

SPEAKER_04:

And I think too, you know, setting your own expectations uh at the right level for how they do in that first year, right? It's it's it is an adjustment for everybody. And your students are taking on so many different demands. And so, you know, kind of being clear headed about what that first year might look like, um, and not being disappointed if things are just, you know, not as strong as you're used to. It is the expression goes, at least academically, that college is not grade 13.

SPEAKER_02:

And the students uh that I teach in their first year, and then I see them in their junior and their senior year, and it is amazing for most of them, uh, especially if they are consciously working at learning the skills, adapting and and moving from there. They will get there. They they are very different in four years. Uh, I think sometimes it is helpful for parents who have seniors and they're worried about high school, um, I mean, worried about college, um, to think back to what their student was like in their freshman year of high school and where they are in their senior year of high school. Wow. And to remember you've got another set of four years like that for your student to grow and change. And so maybe that's a good a good place to end the episode is you know, to to you know, work at it, understand the differences, different expectations, but to recognize that college is a four-year journey and your student.

SPEAKER_04:

And and not always, not always just four years.

SPEAKER_02:

So we hope it's helpful. Thank you to everybody who has stuck with us to the end. Uh, if you have a student with learning disabilities, I know this episode was hugely helpful to you. Uh, if you don't, if you have a student who does not have learning diff differences or learning disabilities, um, you know, hopefully you can pull lots of this information that is helpful to every single student, no matter what. Um, we're going to put lots of links in the show notes, so be sure you go and visit the show notes. And thanks so much for being with us, and we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_04:

Thanks, Vicky.