College Parent Central Podcast

#149 - Encore Episode – Is Your Student Ready for College?

• Vicki Nelson, Lynn Abrahams, Elizabeth Hamblet

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We often assume that once our students have been accepted to college that means they’re ready. But many of the students we work with are not prepared for the academic, social and emotional demands of college life. In this episode, Vicki and Lynn identify ways in which parents can evaluate their student’s readiness. We share what to pay attention to and suggest some important conversations to help students and parents explore their next steps.

Thank you for listening!

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the College Parent Central Podcast. Whether your child is just beginning the college admission process or is already in college, this podcast is for you. You'll find food for thought and information about college and about navigating that delicate balance of guidance, involvement, and knowing when to get out of the way. Join your hosts, Vicki Nelson and Lynn Abrahams, as they share support and a celebration of the amazing experience of having a child in college.

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to the College Parent Central Podcast. This is the place where we talk about all things connected to parenting college students. It's a different role when in college than in high school, and it's still a very important role, but it's different. My name is Lynn Abrahams, and I am here with my friend and colleague, Vicky Nelson. We are both higher ed professionals. We're both professors in a college, and we're both parents of kids who have gone through college. I have two sons, and I am also a learning disability specialist, so I work with uh college students who have learning challenges. And Vicki, you can introduce yourself.

Defining College Readiness Beyond Academics

SPEAKER_02

Yes, hi, I'm Vicki Nelson, and uh I think my parenting credentials maybe are my most important ones. I have three daughters. Lynn has the boys, I have the girls. Uh they've all gone to college, they've finished college and are out on their own. And I teach communication, so I work every day with college students. And I also spent a few years as director of academic advising. So I look through a couple of different lenses at this. And Lynn and I just always are talking about college students and what's going on, so we decided to share what we have to say with some other people and hope that it might be helpful. And we have an interesting topic today. We wanted to talk today a little bit about the idea of college readiness, uh students being ready for college. And you know, I think I think we sort of came up with this topic because there is this belief by a lot of people, parents, teachers, uh, whatever, that my student has graduated from high school, therefore my student is ready for college. And that's not always the case. And it it's interesting because they have done some surveys of high school teachers and also college professors, and asked, you know, are your students ready for college? And the high school teachers have rated that much higher than the college professors, which seems to suggest that you know what what high school teachers are deeming as ready may not be what college professors are expecting as as being ready. So it's it's interesting. And and readiness has a lot to do with things beyond academics. Academics are certainly part of it, but there are a lot of different things that that make a student ready. So we wanted to think a little bit about readiness and specifically about trying to help parents think about how to assess, how to how to measure, how how ready is my student. Uh we may do another podcast, I think we plan to do another podcast in the near future about some things you can do if you decide your student is ri isn't as ready as you'd like them to be. But today it's really just about, okay, what should I look for? What what can I tell? What is this thing called readiness? And just to start us off, I found one definition by the Massachusetts College and Career Readiness Association, and they said college readiness means that students have the academic knowledge, the experiences, and the intellectual and personal qualities needed to enter into a college program or an economically viable career pathway. Not everyone is going to go on to college. So the academic knowledge, experiences, intellectual and personal qualities. And I think sometimes the uh the personal qualities part of it uh gets lost because that is so often what gets in the way. So, yeah, so let's think a little bit about college readiness, what it is, and how parents can look at that.

Covid’s Impact On Skills And Resilience

SPEAKER_01

I have been getting quite a few questions from parents asking me, how do I tell? And you know, how and so that's what we're gonna go over today. I can say that I have been seeing more and more students, I would say over the last five years, which covers COVID, um, students who are telling me they don't think they're ready. And I can see it. I can see it in how overwhelmed they feel, I can see it in how um hard it is to manage the stresses of the college environment. Um I do think in uh COVID had an impact because I think that many of our students spent two years-ish um doing school from home. And that really did not prepare students. Um, certainly did not help prepare them in the social and emotional ways that they needed to be prepared for college.

SPEAKER_02

And you know, I think even academically it made a difference because I it it was a fine line, and I know you know the last two years we've been primarily in the classroom and struggling with this same thing of being compassionate, being empathetic, and saying students are having a really difficult time, and maybe we should, you know, cut them a little slack and and take it easy on them, but still keeping academic rigor. So it you that balance has made a difference.

SPEAKER_01

It has definitely bec become more challenging. Um I um there and we've mentioned you know academic, social, and emotional. It's the social and emotional, it's hard to quantify. Yeah, it's hard to measure that. Um but this is where we want to say that parents are watching their kids, and so they have a lot to say here. Usually when there's a problem in college, there were red flags in high school. And so we're asking you to pay attention and watch and see, you know, you know, trust your own guts too about what you're seeing as parents.

SPEAKER_02

And I think by talking about this, it it helps parents be a little bit proactive because often you you don't think about it until your student is in college and then starts to struggle. Right. And and then you know, hindsight is 20-20. And so you look back and say, oh, yeah, you know, now I can see that maybe there were some things. But perhaps if parents can think about this now when when their student is still in high school, or even during this summer before their student heads to college, it's it's not too late, and and begin to spot where some of the challenges might be and and work on those and not wait until the student crashes later and then and then realize.

SPEAKER_01

You know, I want to put um put a plug out for an article that I read that I really enjoyed, um, and it is by Lisa Endlick Heffern, and it's a website called Grown and Flown. And um she says something really interesting in the beginning of that article. She says, you know, if my kids were accepted into college, doesn't that mean they're ready? You know, these are professionals, they look at all their materials, you know, they made a decision that they're ready. Doesn't that mean they're ready? Well, you know, maybe not. Um, because again, administration, I mean, admissions folks are looking at how your kids look on paper, they're looking at the numbers, they're not necessarily looking at all the extra pieces, the social emotional stuff.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And how a student is going to function uh um under stress.

Application Process As A Readiness Signal

SPEAKER_01

Right. I think that one of the first areas to look um as a way to set to ask, is my son or daughter ready, is to look at the application process and to see how your kids respond to that. I remember both of my kids were actually really different. One of them, um my older one, was very slow at this. And he, you know, he was one of those kids that pressed that submit button the night before at midnight. Um, and then my other son was very quick, quick about it, you know, did his research quickly and made his decisions quickly. So kids are certainly very different. But if you notice that your kids are not involved at all, if you notice that you are actually the one um doing it and not your kids, that is a red flag. Um if your kids are not involved at all, and there's a lot of steps to be involved with, you know. There are so many, you know, looking at colleges and where do you want to go and research grants and scholarships and organizing all that information and writing essays and rewriting them. And so there are so many, many um steps. Um, and if they're not involved at all, that's that's a sign.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it it is when when everything is coming from me as the parent. Um, and you know, the the the application, the admission process has gotten more difficult, yeah, and it has gotten it it has moved back and back and back and back and back in terms of high school. So you know, it used to be back in the day, um you know, maybe the end of your junior year, you began to think about visiting some colleges, and then you did your application in the fall of your senior year, and that was it. And now students are are having really to think junior year and sophomore year and even freshman year, you know, what should I be doing in high school to build that resume and to, you know, admissions and worrying about grades much earlier and and all of that. And I think one of the things that has gotten lost in all of that is that sometimes we forget to really sit down with our kids and say, do you want to go to college? And if so, if the college if the student says, well, sure, because that's what everybody else is doing, um, to really talk about why and and to explore, because some students just know they aren't ready. Some students may be interested in a different path, which might lead them to college eventually, but maybe not right out of high school. Um, and some students may just know they need a little more time. So so really starting all of this by starting early and saying, Yeah, should we be thinking? And if the student says, I don't know, that's okay. Um, well, let's let's do some exploring, let's visit some colleges or do, but not driving automatically, you're going to go to college. Right. I i it's a scary conversation to have because if you if the assumption is that your student is going to go to college and that's what you've always thought and that's what you've planned, asking that question is scary because you might get a no. And but it's so it's so important.

Academic Habits: Reading, Writing, Studying

SPEAKER_01

And I do think the environment is changing just slightly, and maybe again that's a result of COVID. But um I do think it's becoming a little bit more common to have students not go right to college. Um I do want to mention before we stop talking about the application process, um, of um a scene from a film. And um, I don't know if I've asked you before, Vicky, if you've ever seen the movie Harold and Maud. Oh, it's not so long ago, I don't remember. So there is a scene that is absolutely hilarious in that film. And the mom and the son are going are filling out the application for college together. And the mom starts by having the pencil in her hand and asking the son questions and writing down his answers. And before long, she doesn't even listen to his answer, she starts answering it herself. And it's absolutely one of the funniest scenes about this kid is not ready, and the mom is moving forward. Um, anyways, we need to be careful, right? Um, so the more um obvious thing to look at when you're thinking about whether your kids are ready um is whether they're ready academically. And um there are some pretty clear um signs when your kids are not ready. Um, you know, if your kids are really having trouble handing in assignments, completing their homework, getting up in the morning, you know, those are some keys that they're gonna struggle in college. You want to take a look at how much help they're getting. Um I know I work with a lot of kids who um have diagnosed learning differences and they may have a lot of support. They may have extra tutors outside of school. Well, colleges don't offer that in general, you know, all that extra support. Um, you know, unless your kids go to one of the two colleges in the country that are designed just for kids with learning differences, um, they're not going to get that. So you want to look at um look at that. How much help are they getting? How much help do they need to complete their high school work?

SPEAKER_02

And you know, I think the other side of that is definitely you want to look and say, are they getting too much help that they can't do it on their own? But but also do they know how to ask for help when they do need it? Right. Are they working with their teachers? Are they you know saying, I think I need to get a tutor? Or or are they just feeling they need to do it all on their own?

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. That's the other side of it. Yeah. Um I would ask some questions like, do they know how to study? Do they know that they have to study in different ways for different kinds of tests? Do they know that studying is necessary? Do they know that you know they will need to do a lot of reading when they're in college? Um, are they prepared for that? Do they read in general? You know, um, you know, there are definite strategies for textbook reading. Um, so you know, do they know how to do that?

Time Management And Executive Function

SPEAKER_02

Um and then go, do you want to say I wanted to jump in um there because I think you know, those are a lot of things that that a lot of high schools are trying to teach students how to how to do those things and you know how to how to break up a big chapter into smaller things and how to how to summarize, how to do, how to take notes. Um yeah, I find that as a huge thing in my classes. Students either try to write everything down or they don't write anything down. Um, so how to filter and and do that. And I think a lot of schools are working on that. I think all of the academic pieces, the high schools are trying. But you know, you you mentioned reading. Do they know how to read a textbook? I I think another piece of it is do they read? Um, that's that's a a readiness thing that's that students are comfortable reading things. I'm uh shocked when I talk to students in my classes, and I'll sometimes say, what's, you know, I'm trying to get to know them. Well, what's the last book that you read that you didn't have to, that wasn't required for school? And honestly, so many of them can't think of one. They can't remember anything that they've read for pleasure. Uh, and even if they're reading magazines, you know, sports illustrated, or you know, whatever their interests are, reading some things um beyond the visual. We they they watch videos all the time, and I think you know, a lot of adults are the same way. We watch videos, we watch all of that, but we're not reading in the same way. And a student who isn't comfortable reading is is going to have right.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, reading and writing are really, you know, two of the skills in college. Um, I think of um writing, you know, think about how your kids approach a writing assignment. So much of college has to do with writing. Um, you know, do they know how to, you know, brainstorm and then organize information and then write and rewrite and proofread? Um, the writing assignments are often different in college. It's not about um just feeding back information, it's about summarizing and synthesizing and putting together information from many sources. Um, so it's it's a higher level of thinking. So you want to just take a quick look at your kids and and you can sort of size up. You know, are they ready to do this?

SPEAKER_02

And you you might even have a conversation with High school teacher or high school guidance counselor, how is my student doing on these? But the academic is really that's the most obvious obvious one. And and then it's all of these other things.

SPEAKER_01

The you know, and when we say other things, we're really talking about both social things and emotional things. And sort of uh what I think of as also life skill, you know. I you know, the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of those things is time management. I mean, they really, there's a reason why people talk about how important time management is in, you know, in college. Um, in college, students are not as structured and occupied as they were in high school. Right. And so they have more on their shoulders in terms of you know taking responsibility for deciding what they're going to do and when during those blocks of empty time. So, you know, there is so much more that rides on that skill in college.

Social And Emotional Maturity Checks

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So so just sort of watching how your student functions and you know, do they keep lists, do they keep a planner, do they keep, do they get themselves where they need to go on time? Do they, are they always doing assignments at the very last minute? Yep. Um, and all of that, and and seeing if they seem to be managing. So if if you're you know, we're trying to think about it, you know, how to observe and how to talk to your student and see how they do in some of these areas. And then I, you know, we'll we'll we'll talk another time, I guess, about about some some suggestions we have for for working with your student on these, but how are they, you know, how do they function in terms of getting themselves where they need to go and getting things done that they need to do without you reminding them is the key. Uh, you know, one of the things um that I saw was a list of mindset attributes, list of things that you might want to think about for these social and emotional uh things. Um and I just sort of wanted to run through the list real quickly just to throw some ideas out for parents to think about. Um motivation to learn was one of them. These are college success attributes, things that are going to help your student. Um, you know, do they really are do they care about learning, not just I'm uh I do the minimum of what I have to? Um do they have a drive to succeed? Is it important to them to try to do well on some of these things? Um you know, do they use judgment? Do they do they seek multiple perspectives and and try to make decisions? Um do they do they use logic and reason and investigation to to make intellectual choices and and decisions? Foresight, do they do they look at the anticipate the consequences of things that they do or don't do? Uh resilience, the ability to bounce back, to fail, and and come back from it, and and creativity, you know, thinking in an original way about a lot of things. So um so that's just a a list of things to think about, and then some other ways to look. You know, one thing is to consider, especially if your student is going to be going away to college, have they lived away from home and from their family ever before? It's awfully hard if the very first time a student ever lives away from their family is the is when they go to college. So have they gone to camp? Have they gone on trips where they've you know had to function for a few days at a time without their family is is one thing to think about.

SPEAKER_01

I know that when both of my boys went to college, I did feel some reassurance that they both had been to camp. Um, and they went to a summer camp that was you know seven weeks in the woods kind of thing. Um but also camps are very structured and they're told what to do and what not to do, and that doesn't happen in college. So so the next step is to think about how do they handle things when there are when there's trouble and they don't have uh parents or counselors or teachers to tell them what to do? You know, watch watch your kids. What happens when they bump into a wall? What happens if they break up with their, you know, girlfriend or boyfriend? What happens if they don't do well in school? What happens if they're really disappointed? How do they deal with that stuff? Do they have friends to talk to? Do they, you know, get drunk? Do they um, you know, get stuck in video gaming for 24 hours straight? Do they, you know, how do they deal with um difficulty? Um again, you know, emotional resilience is not just something you're born with. You can work on this. And again, we will talk more about this, but take a look at sort of where you think your kids fit in that emotional resilience um continuum.

Living Away, Roommates, And Conflict

SPEAKER_02

And you know, you talked about you know things like a bad grade and and some of those. And so the the other part of that is is when they make mistakes, when they don't do well, um, they make a poor choice, they make a poor decision, do they seem to learn from it? You know, do they just repeat the same mistakes over and over and over? Or are are are they or or are they totally afraid of making mistakes? So either I'll do anything to avoid taking a risk and making a mistake, or I make mistakes, but then I keep making the same mistakes. Do you know do they learn and grow from those sorts of things? Um, and thinking about you know the importance of taking some reasonable risks.

SPEAKER_01

Right. I did have a student um in the college world who um just couldn't make a mistake, and that really, really impacted her college uh performance. She ended up only being able to take two classes at a time because her expectation was to get the top grade for everything, and and she couldn't tolerate, you know, getting less. So so looking at that kind of um stuff, and you know, another area is also the um how your kids take care of themselves. Um are they able to make healthy, you know, choices around sleeping? Do they get enough sleep? Do they eat healthy? Do they because no one in college is going to be reminding them that they need to have some protein with their sh sugar, you know? Um, or that they can't function if they don't sleep. Um, do they, you know, know how to do some of the basics like dealing with, you know, money, dealing with doing their laundry, making doctor's appointments, um, taking their own medication, getting up in the morning. You know, I do see a number of first-year students who are blown away by the amount of um choices they can make in terms of self-care. And um it's also, you know, I have to say, even watching, you know, my friends and you know, other adults, it is not easy to be a healthy adult, you know, to know what to do.

SPEAKER_02

There's constant choices, constant decisions. It's not it's not a one-time thing and then you're done. I mean, it's a daily, daily thing. I do, you know, do I go to sleep or do I stay up and watch some more video games? Or do I, you know, do I pick up the piece of cake or do I pick up an apple in the in the in the cat? It's it's constant. And can students stay with it?

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah. Another area to look at is um how your kids assess risk. Um there's a lot, you know, in the literature about students of this age and and um having difficulty um or wanting seeking risky situations or seeking that that stimulus. Um but watching your kids and saying, you know, how how do they do that? I mean, how do they make those decisions? Do they um are they at the place where they say, perhaps I'm not gonna do this because I may get caught, or I may not do this because of what could happen if I do this? You know, there that's a different maturity of level of thinking. You know, is it just about getting caught, or is it just or is it about thinking through to consequences?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um there's a lot of social pressure on students in college, and especially that first year. There's a reason that they say that first semester, that first six weeks are really, really difficult, and that's one reason. Yeah.

Risk, Consequences, And Ownership

SPEAKER_02

Um and and you know, in thinking about those risks that that that they take, and and and then they do take the risk sometimes, and sometimes they're mistakes, and sometimes things go well, and sometimes things don't. Um, I think another thing is is whether they take responsibility for the mistakes that they do make. Yep. Uh you know, or are they always blamed, well, it it's it was my teacher's fault, or it was my friend's fault, or it was, you know, the stars were aligned, or or whatever, or I made a mistake, I own that. Uh that's a real sign of maturity and readiness to go ahead.

SPEAKER_01

One area that we sometimes forget to think about, um, and we think it's just gonna uh happen automatically, is that um students who live on campus need to share a room. And often they share very small rooms, you know, with one other person. And so you want to look at your kids and say, wow, you know, have they ever shared a room before? Do they what happens in the family when there are disagreements, when there are issues that come up? Um you know, how does that look? Because it doesn't happen automatically.

SPEAKER_02

Right. So, so yeah, uh dealing with disagreements and dealing with conflict and and and thinking about that and uh living with a roommate is a real life-changing experience. But so much character building.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, it's great, great stuff.

Tools And Checklists For Assessment

SPEAKER_02

But think but thinking about the the sharing and the conflict and the negotiating and and all of that, you know, even with siblings and all how to how do they handle that sort of thing. And you know, I think the the other thing with um in terms of of being ready, it kind of goes back to your time management point, and that is the calendar. Um, you know, do they uh do they sort of control their own lives? Do they drive their own bus? You know, that's the metaphor I keep talking to students about. Um, you know, are they responsible for keeping their own appointments and getting up and to school on time and and keeping track of when they have to go to the dentist and keeping track of when they have you know football practice and all of that? Um, so that rather than the big family calendar on the on the fridge, um maybe they're responsible for getting themselves places and all of that. Do they seem to be able to do that? Have they figured out how to how to maneuver all of the things? High school kids are so busy these days, and and that's you know, it's a good thing. Sometimes I think they're a little overly busy and they have a lot of commitments, but are they juggling those all themselves? Or are you or yeah, our our parents doing that for them? Right. Um you know, I I think as as we sort of try to sum this up, just we're really just throwing out a lot of things for parents to to think about and and look at, begin to talk to their students about. Um, I did find one thing that that I think might be helpful as a starting point. It's not a perfect tool. Um the Southern Utah University has um on their website a college readiness assessment. It's actually a a checklist of things that students can go through and answer yes or no to a whole bunch of questions in different categories and and help them think about their own readiness. It's not a perfect tool, and there are some of the questions that I think are a little odd, uh, and so you need to take it with a little grain of salt. Um, but I'm we'll put a link to it in the show notes here. Uh and and it might be worth you know having your student just think about. It divides readiness skills uh into six different areas. Um, talks about academic skills, and those are a lot of the things we just talked about, you know, in terms of writing and reading and taking notes and doing all of that. Uh about five questions, answer yes or no. Self-understanding. This is a big one. Yeah. How much you know, how much do they do they know about themselves? And that's a big piece that students struggle with sometimes in their in their freshman year. Um do they, you know, do they understand their own academic strengths and challenges? And um can they can they identify what supports they need and and how to get them and how to advocate for them? Um can do they feel as though they're able to help other people understand them, you know, and who they are. Um and how much do they worry about what other people think and how much does that uh influence what they do? Uh third category is self-advocacy, being able to stand up for yourself and and speak up for yourself and know what you need and work on getting it, um, learning things on your own, uh comfortable making decisions without your parents telling you what to do, some of those things. And then executive function, I know we're planning to talk about. I have a whole podcast on that. It's it's huge, but um, can they focus on on the task at hand? And um do they have strategies for completing things that are difficult or prolonged? And um, do they think about the consequences? You know, we just talked about that. And then there's a category on motivation and confidence. How you know how how how much confidence do they have in themselves, so self-confident? Um, do they know what they want uh out of college and and have maybe some strategies to see about getting that? Um are they actually interested in doing things beyond the minimal class requirements? And then and then just you know, thinking about college. Um, do they see the benefits of going to college? Um what you know, have they thought about how much college scares them and what they can do maybe to make it a little less scary? Um so yeah, I just thought this was an interesting place to start. Students can actually score themselves and figure out a percentile. Uh, I, you know, I I wouldn't I wouldn't put too much weight on that, but it's a good place to start and to have some conversations.

Programs, Bridge Options, And Gap Years

SPEAKER_01

So as we kind of bring this topic to a close, I I do want to remind people that our parents that, you know, our goal is not just that our kids get to college. Our goal is that when they get to college, they can do well in college, that they can access, you know, the resources, that they can enjoy it, that they can um get the most out of it. If they're not ready, they will not get the most out of it.

SPEAKER_02

And everyone will be miserable.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Yeah. And it's a ton of money. Um, so you know, I do um, I know that there are a lot of programs out there designed to um help students get ready for college. Uh, I know there's one at Brown University. There are, you know, many colleges and universities offer programs um for high school students to work on the skills. Um so just do a little research and um you know look and and see if there are things that would be appropriate for your kids.

SPEAKER_02

And you know, I I think that's that's great, and parents should look and and think about those. And and some colleges have bridge programs for their own students, like a couple of weeks in the summer to get ready to go in the fall. Um a lot of those programs, I think, are uh largely academic. Right. And so I think I think it's good, and parents should look into them and maybe talk to their students about whether they want that. But really, a lot of those social, emotional, life skills are things that might be better addressed within the family. And and parents, and it's hard because kids don't always want to listen to their parents. Uh, so it depends on how you approach it and all of that. But um some of these programs will help with those things, especially if if you have someone who has never been away from home. And so, okay, go to this program for two or three weeks in the summer. You're going to at least have a small experience of being away before we send you off in September. Um, but y you know, parents that a lot of the things parents need to think about at home.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, parents have a special role in that you know your kids and you really know them in a different way than any school school will know your kids. And you um it's important for you to pay attention to what you see and have conversations with your kids. Every every single student develops in their own pace. And um and it's different for every single student, and you have a special role to play in that. Yeah.

Parent Roles, Next Steps, And Resources

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SPEAKER_02

Parents. And and uh college may be uh uh an important uh step, but it may or may not be the next step, and that's very scary, I think, sometimes for parents. But for for many students, I I and I see them, and I see them in my classroom, and I can almost always recognize them. Taking a gap year, taking a year in between high school and college, and finding something else to do gives them a break, but also gives them time to work on those those life skills. And it could be a gap year experience, it could be a post. graduate year at a different school. Or it could just be finding a job and working and taking care of yourself. And if your student does that, it's important that parents back off and let them do that and let them work on that. But that might be a way to go. We actually did a a podcast episode and it's back a ways now. I think it was um episode 11 that was all about gap years. And so you know you can if that's you're thinking about that, you might want to go back and and look at that. So the path is different for for everybody. Yeah. Lots to think about. So so I think I I I'm willing to promise that we will do another episode relatively soon on once you've taken a look at these sort of things and maybe identified some areas of challenge, areas of growth that we can offer some suggestions on things to do to help build those areas and make sure your student really is ready for that next step of college. Lots to think about. And we hope that this has helped parents we hope it's helped you think about some conversations you want to have with your student and that you will if if you did find it helpful you will share with other people word of mouth is wonderful advertising. And if you haven't already maybe subscribe to the podcast wherever you like to listen to podcasts. If you have an extra moment and you're willing to leave us a rating or a review we are really grateful for that because that does help other people find the podcast. And we know there are people out there that don't know about us yet and might be able to use some of this information. So anything you can do to help us spread the word we're really really grateful. And we're grateful that you spend time with us and if you've stuck it through here to the very end thank you for that too. Be sure to visit the College Parent Central website CollegeParentcentral.com lots of information there. We talked about the importance of students reading maybe some parents want to read some articles too and we will put show notes there with a few things we mentioned and definitely that checklist so visit the website leave us a comment there tell us what you'd like to hear on the website on the podcast and thanks so much for joining us. See you next time. See you