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Coaching Mind's Podcast: Perform at your best!
Coaching Mind's Podcast: Perform at your best!
#131 - Positive Intelligence Pt. 2 w/ Brenna Munson
Ever wondered why that voice in your head keeps sabotaging your performance? In this revealing exploration of Chapters 3 and 4 from "Positive Intelligence," we dive deep into understanding the mental saboteurs that derail even the most talented athletes.
The conversation uncovers how these negative thought patterns—which we all possess—initially formed as protection mechanisms in childhood but now cause more harm than good. Everyone has a primary "judge" saboteur along with accomplice saboteurs like the hyperachiever, pleaser, controller, or stickler. These mental patterns might have helped us survive and even excel (as Brenna shares from her gymnastics career), but they eventually become obstacles to peak performance.
What makes these mental saboteurs particularly dangerous is how they masquerade as helpful. "Without me pushing you, you'll get lazy" or "Without me judging others, you won't protect yourself." These justification lies keep us locked in negative thought patterns that wake us at 3AM with anxiety rather than helping us improve.
The most powerful strategy for breaking free? Simply recognizing and naming these saboteurs. When you can say, "That's my judge talking" rather than identifying with those thoughts as "me," you create separation that allows you to choose a different response. This awareness extends beyond individual performance to team dynamics and family relationships, as understanding different saboteur patterns improves communication and empathy.
Ready to identify your own mental saboteurs and learn how to weaken their grip on your performance? Take the free PQ assessment mentioned in the episode and join us next time as we explore how to strengthen your "sage"—the inner coach that provides constructive guidance without the emotional toll.
Are you an ATHLETE looking to take your training to the next level? Check out our website to learn more about 1-on-1 training opportunities:
mentaltrainingplan.com/athletes
Are you a COACH looking for an affordable year-round mental performance training program? Check out the MTP Academy available through our website:
mentaltrainingplan.com/academy
Hey, welcome to the Coaching Minds podcast, the official podcast of Mental Training Plan, joined again by Brenna Brenna, thanks for coming back, being on the show again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1:So part two we're talking through chapters three and four today of the book Positive Intelligence and if you guys have not listened to the previous episode where we just kind of introduced that first section, would encourage you to pause this, go back and give that previous episode a listen, just so that you've got some good background information. But you know, brenna, why don't you kind of start us off by giving us just a super quick recap and buzz through of what we talked about from section one?
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. So, section one we introduced this idea of positive intelligence, which is your ability to take your thoughts captive and then make them work in your favor. So it's the idea that we have these two opposing forces in our brain. We have the saboteurs and our sage. So we briefly talked about how saboteurs everyone has a judge and then there's nine accomplices. Your sage is that wiser, curious part of your brain that's acting in your favor, and we briefly talked about these three strategies, which are weaken your saboteurs, strengthening your sage and strengthening your PQ muscles, and so what we're going to be doing over the next few episodes is talk through more of those strategies, and so today's episode is actually about weakening your saboteurs, understanding your judge and just getting a better idea of what are these negative voices inside my head.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think, from a sport perspective, if I were to say, how does this best apply to our audience, social media or that person that's just up in the stands that you know, happy to point out your flaws but not really helping with, okay, well, what are we going to actually do about this? And the sage would maybe be like that inner coach, like okay you know we're not, we're not living in la la land.
Speaker 1:We're not just saying let's accept mediocrity, but are going to say, okay, what's happened has happened now. What are we going to do about it now? How are we going to move forward? But the part of the reason why I like this book so much, part of the reason why I like the saboteur example even better than the critic, is because there's there's that like hint of I'm pretending like I'm on your side, but really I'm sabotaging things, I'm hiding, I'm underneath the surface, I'm even appearing as helpful, I'm even able to justify. Well, you can't, you can't get rid of this judge, then Then you'll just be, you'll be okay with you know, however you play, and then you'll never get better, and then you're not going to achieve your goals. And and so there's a there's a sneaky deceptiveness to it that I that I just love. Talk to us, talk to us a little bit about.
Speaker 1:You know, at the beginning of chapter three, he's talking about how, you know, as a child, he started to have these fears and he started to have these pains, and the role of the saboteur is to basically help you survive.
Speaker 1:So you know, he used the example talking about with his parents that you know, we all want independence, we all want acceptance, we all want security. Those were three things that he brought up. So how are we going to get those? Well, we can either be assertive, we can take action and command and demand fulfillment of these primary needs. We can try to earn our way and you know, if I, if I do this, then my parents will give me praise and then I'll get that acceptance that I want, or mom will be in a good mood. So then there's, you know, some more security, or there's a, a void was the, was the third one, and so all of these saboteurs kind of, you know, start off there. Talk to me a little bit about, because I know we spoke beforehand about how knowing where these came from and knowing what your enemy is gives you a little bit better chance at fighting and eradicating this. Talk to us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. So the really cool thing about positive intelligence and these saboteurs is they were originally formed to serve you. They were there to protect you. So I can speak for myself as one of eight kids. I developed a saboteur very early on to be a pleaser and a hyper achiever, which is a motivation of acceptance and a style of being assertive because, being one of eight kids, I wanted attention and I wanted to be. Oh, I guess I wanted attention. And then I just wanted to have that acceptance for my parents because I was always competing for attention with seven other people. So my saboteur-.
Speaker 1:Were you going to stand out? Maybe a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So my saboteur of hyperachiever was I'm going to stand out from everybody else by being the best, doing the best that I can and then pointing that out to my parents, which at the time, was great. Right, we developed that for a short period of time. I got what I felt was acceptance at the time, what I needed. But then, growing into adulthood, I find myself trying to carry this hyperachiever saboteur with me and now it just results in emotional drainage and physical drainage and trying to do the most all the time. But I know that's not me, that's just my saboteur that developed at a time to protect me. And these saboteurs can be good. Sometimes I need to hyperachieve, but they can also be bad, because they were put on us like a cast. If we never take a cast off, we can never grow. So it's important that we break them down and really understand why are they in our lives and are they serving us at the appropriate time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I just I think I think it's easy for people to kind of identify. Well, how you know, we all want acceptance, so did you, did you go the assertive route and you tried to gain that by hyper achieving, going after being assertive, tracking down these goals. Was it more of like the you know you're trying to earn things, so like you're trying to be a pleaser, you're trying to you know, I would say that my wife might you know.
Speaker 1:I would say that my wife might, you know, identify with a little bit more of those characteristics, being the middle child of three, you know. Or he talks about how one of his siblings in the book wanted acceptance and so when things weren't going well, when mom and dad didn't have a safe environment or weren't accepting of you know how his sibling was acting. He would just go with the victim saboteur and kind of withdraw and you know, oh, woe is me. But at least, at least you know he's, he's getting some of that acceptance, he's getting some of that victim mentality, some of that. That victim card, I don't know, I thought it was, I thought it was very interesting and reading through the entire chapter, I think, really gives, really helps you identify.
Speaker 1:Where did these come from? You know what? What's the description of it, what are the thoughts that go with it, the feelings that go with it, what are the justification lies that we tell ourselves, the impact it has on ourself and even on other people. So the judge is the big one. Let's talk a little bit about that. Tell us a little bit about how we judge ourselves and others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so everybody has a judge. There's 10 saboteurs, a judge and nine accomplice. Everybody has a judge. You judge yourself, you judge others and you judge circumstances. So our judgment and judges to ourself. It tells us lies that we have to earn attention and love and value and the judge is like a pushing force. If you feel like you're being pushed to do something, that's the judge telling you you have to assert yourself into action or whatever your motivational style is to avoid those feelings, those negative feelings, whereas the sage on the counterpart is more of a pulling action, like you want to move forward, you want to self-generate, these feelings of joy and creativity. So if you feel yourself being pushed more than you're being pulled towards a positive or what you think might be a positive outcome, it's more than likely to judge um and then judging others.
Speaker 2:I think judging others is a really interesting topic because everyone does it Like social media, conscious, unconscious. Everyone's always under the influence of judging others and comparing themselves. What I really like about this concept that he talks about in the book is this idea of projection. Like he tells a story about two coworkers and they were talking to each other and her judge was facing his judge and then all of a sudden we have conflict with each other, and it's not because the people don't agree with each other and they don't like each other. It's because the front they're putting on is creating this negative energy and these negative back and forth conversations where we're just getting lost in the words and lost in the emotions and the thoughts and then judging our circumstances.
Speaker 2:I found myself, as an athlete, doing this quite often. I would judge the lighting in a meet room, I would judge how much chalk I had on my grips, I would judge the other team's, leo. It was like you judge everything right, like you're always looking around you, and unfortunately, we kind of live in a world where the habit is we're just gonna hate on everybody else, so judging others. And then we also put all of our faith in this idea of I'll be happy when and that's such a dangerous lie, the dangerous lie of when being a moving target. I thought that all throughout my career too. You know, like, okay, in high school, when I get to college, then then I'll be really having a good time. Oh, I'm just a freshman, let's wait till sophomore year, okay, but when I'm a senior I'm really going to figure it out and that moving target is really just our judge, putting unrealistic expectations on ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think we saw that. You know guys that were interviewed after the Super Bowl that were kind of like you know, I've been chasing this for a long time and it was really awesome. But you know, to be honest, we kind of got there and it was like, well, is this it? Like you enjoy it? For a couple days, like Isaac and I talked about that and I almost felt bad saying it out loud, like after we won a state championship, I almost felt bad telling people like it wasn't the the act of winning the game in and of itself, that final outcome wasn't nearly as meaningful. Or, you know, when my completion percentage gets up here, or if my batting average could just be this, or if I could just, you know, throw this many miles per hour like the other guys, then I'd be happy. But then as soon as we reach that goal, like you said, we realize we're not happy.
Speaker 1:I liked the some of the justification and lies that the judge says. So like without me pushing you, you'll get lazy and complacent, or without me judging others, you'll lose your objectivity and not protect your self-interest. Without me, you feel bad about negative outcomes but you won't do anything to change them without me scaring you about bad future outcomes. You're not going to work hard to prevent them.
Speaker 1:And he used the example in the book of if you don't do well enough in a game and there's a part of you that judges you know what? That wasn't up to my standard. And then, as a result, you go back in that next week. And then, as a result, you go back in that next week. You train different, you hydrate different, you eat sleep different, you watch film differently, you work harder in practice, like if it changes things, then that was a positive thing. But the example he used was like if it's waking you up at three o'clock in the morning and all you can think about is, oh my gosh, what if this happens? What if that happens? What if? And then you start judging yourself, comparing yourself to other people what's this college recruiter think? What are they going to have on social media Then it's obviously doing way more harm than good.
Speaker 2:For sure, discernment is good. Discernment's a good skill, um, but your judge is different from discernment. If it's waking you up in the middle of the night, all those negative feelings are caused by your judge, whereas your sage is that objective piece thinking okay, how do I need to train different to succeed next time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so talk to us a little bit about the master saboteur. A little bit about the master saboteur. We talked about how it was initially developed to help us survive. It was beneficial in childhood, but then, carrying that over into adulthood, it becomes negative. Talk to me a little bit. Let's go a little bit deeper back into your story of just what did that hyper-achieving and pleasing mindset look like as a child? How did it help you as a child? How did you even see benefit from it? And then tell yourself, oh, I should keep doing this. And then when did you realize? But now in adulthood, this is causing more harm than good.
Speaker 2:For sure. So, like I mentioned, I had a very strong saboteur construct of a hyperachiever, a pleaser, but also a stickler. I was a gymnast I mentioned that previous episode so in gymnastics it's one of those funny sports where you can only lose. You can only lose tenths, you can only lose points. There is no opportunity to gain. It's really based on this subjective person's opinion of how not perfect you are. So naturally, I developed this stickler, perfectionist, saboteur construct where I felt in every area of my life I had to be perfect.
Speaker 1:And I want to, I want to pause you right there because, to be fair, if you had other girls that you were competing against that maybe didn't have some of those same tendencies, who were maybe just, oh, it's okay, we can all do however we want, yay, let's feel good about ourselves that weren't holding themselves to a higher standard, then at some point they're going to start falling off and they're not able to keep up with you. I mean, is that fair? Fair?
Speaker 2:totally. My stickler is what got me to be a collegiate gymnast. To be good at a sport, that means you need to be perfect. The stickler was my friend for a time, um, or I accepted it for a time. Where it really became detrimental for me was when I would succeed, but I refused to see it. It's okay to not be perfect, even though you might develop that mindset of it is. So, again, like we all have our judge, but then we usually have three, three saboteurs that are strongest. And I think when I took this assessment because there's a PQ assessment that you can take free online when I took it as an athlete out of 10, I was a 9.9 in controller, a high eight in stickler and then hyperachiever.
Speaker 2:So when you think about understanding an athlete or a person and you see their saboteurs, it gives you a better lens to view them with empathy, because you're like, look at what's up against them. You're like, oh, brenna's just type A, always working hard, she never sits down. Why can't she just relax and be happy? Because the judges and the saboteurs are telling me that's not an option. As an adult now I know better, and I say I know better. Of course, everything's ebbs and flows. Um, that, those are me. It's not what makes me Brenna. Those are just the saboteurs in my head trying to bring me down because they once protected me, but now I'm ready to outgrow those.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think the the one that I that was the strongest for me was the hyper rational, um, just the, you know emotions were uncomfortable to me and, to be honest, like in seventh and eighth grade I was the new kid at school. You know I ended up being the starter on the football team. Some of the kids my age didn't like that. They let me know about that. There was certainly some bullying, some punching me in the kidneys in the hallway after lunch, some just some you know nasty, terrible things that were said in the locker room, stuff like that. So it was like I needed some way to protect myself from these terrible things that were being done to me. So it was like, all right, well, these emotions are uncomfortable, so I'm just going to go super intense on rational processing. You know I'm going to be. There's a little bit of coldness, some distance, some. You know there's this intense, active mind a little bit more private, like literally, as I'm reading off these characteristics, it's like, oh, my goodness, this, this was me.
Speaker 1:And so, you know, there was a time where that was beneficial. But then where and I'll say like I was well beyond my playing days before I had any clue, you know that I was struggling with something like this. I didn't even realize how big of an issue this was till I was married and my wife is trying to have a conversation with me about emotions and how she was feeling and I was like, well, this doesn't make any sense. Can you give me a? Can you give me a time where I did that? You know, going back to my hyper rational, like I don't have to deal with how you're feeling if I can just disprove you in the court of our logical argument that I'm right and you're wrong.
Speaker 1:But it's like at some point I had to realize how she's feeling is how she's feeling, and I don't get to judge whether that's right or wrong. That's how she's feeling and so there are going to be, you know, there are going to be times where at the beginning it was beneficial and then somewhere along the way it becomes not so beneficial. So the, you know, moving into the, called it the judge. The master sabote was chapter four. Um, I love the quote that that you had pointed out a predisposition to exaggerating the negative and assuming the worst is actually good for survival, because, like you said, that was part of what got you to the level that you were at. That was part of what was the reason for your success.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure you don't need to have a saboteur control you, but their powers can be beneficial to you if you have the positive intelligence to know when they're being helpful for you.
Speaker 1:If you're out in the jungle and the leaves rustle, then it's good for your survival. For you to say that could be a stinking tiger. I shouldn't stay here. I better run or hide or get back in my Jeep or pull out my gun. There better be some plan. I better get out of this situation so that I survive. You know, and even if 99 times that's not a tiger stalking me, there's still a an awful lot of benefit in that one time that it was a tiger and I was able to get the heck out of there. But all too often, you know, we get into this, we get into this fight or flight mode way too often and we get set off by everything you know. Talk, talk to us a little bit about you know, maybe some of the the tigers quote unquote that hunt us as athletes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So something that comes to mind for me, because it was a big tiger was failure, but not failure by performance, failure by somebody else's standard, which is where that like pleaser mindset comes in. It's like every time I was like mom and dad are going to be so mad at me if I don't do good. Nine times out of 10, they were like did you do your best? I was like yep, did you have a good attitude? Yep, not mad. The maybe one time is probably when I had a bad attitude. I sulked, didn't give my best effort, didn't prepare. So it was good for my hyperachiever to step in to push me those nine times out of 10. But it's also okay for my judge to judge myself that one time I didn't put in my best effort. You know they can be good Again, as long as they're not controlling you.
Speaker 1:One of the suggestions that I loved about the saboteur was this idea of naming and separating and saying, hey, my judge thinks this, so I'll go back. You know, I like to use this example just because it's easy and people are kind of familiar with it. Like 2016, we lose two regular season games by a combined three points and I would say if we didn't go back and change things and improve how we were doing some things and turn up the intensity even more, then there's no way we win a state championship that year. So you know, the example would be that on, let's say, Saturday morning after the game, when we're watching film, it's not allowing that judge to say I can't believe I threw that interception. Gosh, I suck, no one's going to be recruiting me anymore, we're not going to have an undefeated season. What if all this work we did in the offseason wasn't good enough? And just going down that rabbit hole of negativity is not beneficial. And just going down that rabbit hole of negativity is not beneficial. And so in the book he said the judge thinks that that was a stupid interception. And in my mind, to take this back to, like our critic and our coach example, it's almost like you know we could name them. We could call them Bob, we could call them negative Nelly, we can whatever, but being able to say, hey, this critic thinks that that was a terrible pass. Ok, that's nice that the critic has that opinion.
Speaker 1:Now, as the inner coach, what do we need to do about it? Was it the wrong read? Did we not watch enough film? Was it just a bad pass? And you know what we're going do about it. Was it the wrong read? Did we not watch enough film? Was it just a bad pass? And you know what we're gonna let it go. Was it? You know I, I did, I didn't do, I didn't know the game plan well enough. What needs to change? Do we need to throw this route more in practice the next week? Do we need to practice this more? Do Do we need to get better? You know what are the, the, the sage or the inner coach, or whatever you want to call it, is able to say okay, you know there's this negative thing that happened. Now what do we do about it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really makes me think of like a Goodwill hunting moment where it's it's not your fault. You know, I I did this with my 14 year old sister actually this past weekend I had the opportunity to go home and she came to me and she's like I'm having a lot of anxiety, like I don't know why, I don't know where it's coming from. I'm like let's take this assessment. Um, she took the assessment and her top three saboteurs were all 9.5 or higher anxiety-based saboteurs. And I was able to look at her and say, tatum, it's not your fault, like, it's not you. Like those voices think that you can't do this, that you have to be this, that or the other thing, and to see, like the relief of like, like that breakdown, it's, it's not me, it's, that's a you problem that I'm not associating with. But I choose to listen to this inner coach, the self-love, the curiosity part of me that's going to get me on my way just as effectively, with way less emotional toll.
Speaker 1:I believe you even had another family member take it. Let's dive a little bit more into that and maybe some of the benefit of understanding where you're coming from, where teammates are coming from If you're a coach, where your players are coming from, if you're in the business world, where the other people in your office are coming from. I want to hear that story.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. So I've taken it, my dad's taking it, my sister's taking it, and I was home this weekend and we were all talking about these saboteurs. We kind of side-eyed my mom like mom, have you taken it? And so we had my mom take the PQ assessment, and she knows I was going to talk about this. I got permission, I'm not going to get in trouble. But she scored a 10 out of 10, which is the max score you could score for pleaser and hypervigilant.
Speaker 2:And so when you think about the pleaser and the hypervigilant um saboteurs, the pleaser is out and their lie is I have to do this, um, to earn love. I have to do this to earn acceptance, I have to do this to take care of everybody else. The hypervigilant is over here saying I have to do this because nobody else can. And so when we think about a parent relationship and I was even talking to my teenage sister, because the girls know the teenage daughter to the mom relationship can sometimes be a tough one and you butt heads and you don't understand why is mom, has this pleasure hypervigilant construct that's telling her I need to take care of you and I need to do it all for you.
Speaker 2:And then you have this teenager who has a controller and also a little bit of a pleaser in her, who's like I want to earn my acceptance, but I'm afraid to disappoint you. And when you think about how these two saboteurs might be meshing with each other, it results in a lot of conflict. And so when we were able to set those aside and sit down and talk about my mom's saboteurs and my sister's saboteurs, it's like, well, no wonder we're having issues right now You're coming off with I want to protect you and do it all for you, and my sister is like I want to start earning my independence, but I'm afraid to disappoint you. So these assessments can be really great for all teams, like a coach to a player, a player to a player, like where's the breakdown happening? Where are you coming from and what am I not understanding? It helps you see past your lens of saboteurs and really activate your stage to empathize with the voices that somebody else might be dealing with.
Speaker 1:I love that. And before we hop into what do we do about this? How do we weaken them a little bit, I want to just kind of summarize real quick for me as a mental performance coach and some of the most benefit that I see from all of this kind of wrapping up what we've talked about so far. Number one the description. The description of saboteur I like way better than inner critic, even though the inner critic is maybe a little bit more sportsy. I love the idea of like this military insurgent in my brain, pretending to protect me, pretending to have my best interests at heart, but then having the ability to sabotage things If I give them too much power. It's almost like this spy that you know when you're you're playing this game with, with spies on an international level. You want to, you want to trust them and you want to get the information out of them, but like you're not going to give them your laptop password so they can get in there and get access to everything, right, so we want to keep them at a little bit, at an arm's distance.
Speaker 1:I love the origin piece to this. I love the ability to go back and look at and examine why did this happen. Where did this come from? Because that's when I think you can really start to see, oh, this benefited me when I was a kid. I'm just not a kid anymore and I don't need this anymore. I think that makes it a little bit easier to start to shed some of these things. I think the separation piece of you know this is not the ultimate master of my mind. I'm not going to let this judge or I'm not going to let this hyper rational or this victim or whatever saboteur run the show. They can have their opinion. We're going to use their analysis, we're going to use oh, this wasn't good enough. And then I am going to take back over and, using the sage or using that inner coach or whatever you want to call that, moving forward, I am now going to put together a plan and then execute that plan and put that to work.
Speaker 1:I would say that you know, at this point, if I could just get, if I could just get my kids or my athletes to read part one and part two, that at least gives us a whole new vocabulary of things that we're able to discuss. You know, it's not just self-talk. There's literally like 10 categories of potential self-talk and the roots and origins behind them. I see a ton of value in that. I see a ton of value in that. So now we start to move forward.
Speaker 1:I will say you know, I think when they start to take back control, they do a really good job in the book of how do we make long-term, meaningful, lasting change. I think that there are some other additional tools that we need to incorporate, just in the sports world, because, you know, I, I need to get my guys and my gals to be able to make some changes immediately on the golf course right now and take back control. But I, I want to dive into exposing the lie and then weakening your saboteur, because over a longer timeframe, I think this is gold. Talk to us a little bit about those two ways that you can really start to weaken the saboteur.
Speaker 2:So this first strategy is so simple and so self-explanatory. To weaken a saboteur, really, you just need to, like you said, expose the lie. You need to understand that these thoughts are a lie and they're not benefiting you. Saboteurs do their greatest damage when they've convinced you that they are you and they are your friend and they've worked their way into your self-talk. But I even challenged the idea of self-talk. Is your saboteur talking to you self-talk or is that, like you said, the critic? Is that that other voice that we don't want to associate with? So the first step in taking back control of your thoughts and getting a stronger, positive intelligence, just bring awareness to be like oh, the judge said that the judge thinks that I didn't do a good enough job there. You know what I think? I'm going to move forward and abandon that thought. Take what's helpful, take what, or leave what's not, and just move forward. So really simple first strategy Start to recognize where your thoughts might be going awry, not serving you.
Speaker 1:And you know, that kind of brings us to the end of part two or the end of chapter four, where we're saying we have these saboteurs, we have these critics, we have this stuff in our head. Sometimes it's beneficial, sometimes they point out things that need to improve. Other times it's just noise and we need to move on. But understanding we don't have to be held captive by these things, and not everything in our own head is innately trying to help us and do positive things and do good. And especially in the, in the world of athletics, where so much of high performance is uncomfortable, so much of high performance is uncomfortable, so much of high performance goes against that. Let's keep ourselves safe and happy and free from harm, and free from psychological harm, like we're constantly saying no. To achieve greatness, we got to go, put a lot of things on the line and we're going to have to take some risks.
Speaker 1:So next, uh, the next section. It talks about, you know, not just weakening the lies. But then how do we now start to strengthen this sage? Or, in our sports example, how do we now start to build up this inner coach where we've identified yeah, this wasn't good enough, yeah, I came up short, okay, but now what are we going to do and how are we going to move forward? Be at our best stuff like that. So, brenna, looking forward to, uh, having that conversation next time. Appreciate you joining us this evening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank much.
Speaker 1:it's always a pleasure if you have questions or want to learn a little bit more about how working with mental training plan can help your individual athlete or your team, head on over to mentaltrainingplancom. Click on the contact us button at the bottom. Send a message. Let's set up a phone call. Have a quick conversation about your son or daughter or your team and, until next time, make your plan and put it to work.