I am excited to bring this podcast episode to you as Lisa has been a champion of mine ever since I first met her while speaking in Saskatchewan. Not only does Lisa share her professional experience as a (now retired) Occupational Therapist, a member of the Board of Directors of CanFASD, but she has also raised two individuals on the Spectrum and is currently raising a grandchild.
Her experience raising her two children – with nine years apart – is an example of how far our understanding of FASD has come, the importance of early intervention and inter-dependence for success, as well as her own growth as a parent. You will learn:
In the last part of the podcast Lisa answers questions from our Closed Facebook Group which you won’t want to miss. She also relates her best advice to parents and caregivers. Lots of useful information packed in this one!
For show notes:
www.fasdsuccess.com/podcast
I am excited to bring this podcast episode to you as Lisa has been a champion of mine ever since I first met her while speaking in Saskatchewan. Not only does Lisa share her professional experience as a (now retired) Occupational Therapist, a member of the Board of Directors of CanFASD, but she has also raised two individuals on the Spectrum and is currently raising a grandchild.
Her experience raising her two children – with nine years apart – is an example of how far our understanding of FASD has come, the importance of early intervention and inter-dependence for success, as well as her own growth as a parent. You will learn:
In the last part of the podcast Lisa answers questions from our Closed Facebook Group which you won’t want to miss. She also relates her best advice to parents and caregivers. Lots of useful information packed in this one!
For show notes:
www.fasdsuccess.com/podcast
spk_1: 0:02
Welcome to the S A s D success show the only podcast where you can get really world information about fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. This show will help you create calm in the chaos. Have hope for the future and, more importantly, save your sanity so you don't lose your flip in mind. Now, here's your host. Caregiver turned world F A s T educator
spk_0: 0:26
Everybody, welcome to the FAA s D Success show. Episode number 19. That's a good number. It's a great number. It's a great day. How are you? How are you holding up? We are now in week. I don't even remember the days air together. Things air happening. But I am still going to provide you with a now hour two hours. However long we go with some excellent f A s, T insight, info and maybe a little bit of an entertainment, maybe. Ah, if you're listening and have been listening thank you so much. If you're new to the podcast and you like where you here and you like what's going on here? Ah, by all means subscribed. Follow However, it is that your podcast hosts lets you and helps you. And once you do that, you get a notification right away. So it's literally when I'm done uploading it. Boom! It'll go. You'll be able to get it right away. So how are you doing? I am doing great. Last week was super busy. We did the medication algorithm webinar with Dr Mella, and it was fantastic. I was a bit nervous because, you know, we had over 1000 people register and we had over. I think it was 560 actually, you know, show up. And I don't mean that in a negative way. In fact, webinar numbers from what I could gather from the data, it's usually like anywhere from 30 to 40. 50% will show up for the actual event. Um, so that was accidents. So there was close to, you know, 600 people in there, but it went well and I wasn't expecting people to be honest. Soon as I got on years, they have a second to prepare, but it went swimmingly, you know, because Dr Mella is a champion. And if you have no idea what I'm talking about, Dr. Mella did the very first is a part of a team who created the first F A s T medication algorithm. If by this time you're listening to this and you want a copy, you can go to www dot f a s d success dot com slash med webinar and there will be a weightless there. We have been working on the video to polish it up, and it's going through its second wave of edit. So I'm hoping to have that in the next couple days. Eso depends on when you listen to this, but you can go to F A s t success dot com slash med webinar and you'll be ableto put in your information and we will hook you up and it is fantastic. And I got lots of great feedback and that was very nice of people who did it took it. So that's that's what happened. And that's how the weekend Waas and I am glad it is done in a sense, almost done, we always we have everything you know, ready to go. It will be nice to get that out because I really believe that it will help a lot of families. It's already help families. It's already help families that have had access to this a little bit earlier. Those of those of the people that took my online caregiver kickstart course and you know, I've talked about it and reference it. That's because where I draw some experience from But we once this the webinar project is complete. I am moving on my focus over to this year's class. It's us. I love it. I love when I'm get to the point where we're like Okay, now this is where focus is because it is what I love to do. I love speaking in front of people. That is excellent. But one of my favorite things to Dio is do the caregiver kickstart where we take for months and months and months. We take caregivers and we take them from step one all the way to step awesome, whatever that is for them. And so don't worry, I will tell you all about it where the as we get closer to the dates, of course, I'll tell you even want people come on the podcast that have taken the course to just tell their story because we have everybody has an incredible story. If you said to yourself I could write a book? Yeah, you probably could. And so good. You know, these are the folks that have taken the course, so I just want to share them with you and because they've been through a lot and they have managed to get through it. And it's success. Um, having said that one of in the caregiver kickstart course, we have a coaching calls. And not only is it myself we have, you know, with the group, but I also get other insiders experts, whatever you want to call them in the field of f a s t. To come on and to teach the class. And we ask questions that we learn. And one of those ladies is Lisa brownstone whose today's guest and if I get even backtrack Ah, a little bit more. I first met Lisa Ah, quite a few years ago in Saskatchewan, the provinces, Saskatchewan, where she is from. And I remember speaking for an organization there, and she came up and talked to me afterwards, and she gave me some pretty cool insight, which we talk about into the interview as well. I I don't have the point now where, um at first I would be so scared when someone approach me and say hi. I'm Dr So and so And oh, hey, I do this, um, because you want Teoh, make sure that you're saying the appropriate information. And I love when people come up to me after and say, Have you thought about this or what about this? In a like a nice way or some good insight? Enemies? She she gave that insight to me. And it's something that I still use and talk about to this day. But in the interview, what we're talking about, it's something I had no idea about we're talking about. It's the title of the podcast. It is the eighth Sense. Eso from what I knew there was seven cents is five for sure, and now she's saying an 8th 1 So I wanted here to come on and to talk about the eight cents. But the first half of the interview, honestly, we got talking about her kids. We gotta talking about early intervention. We got talking to all kinds of things, and eso just you. If you want, you can fast forward the interview. I think it's 1/2 an hour in or so, but it's incredible. Just this is where I find the information comes in. The really good tidbits in the really good nuggets of solid, awesome information is through these conversations we have. So, um, I'm excited to share it with you. In fact, let's get let's get down to business here. Enough of me, Maura her because we know that occupational therapy sensory issues are comment with individuals with F A S t. So why not talk to a mom? Why not talk to a former O. T. Who's doing it? And not only is she that, but she's so much more and I'm a break it down for you. So Lisa is a retired occupational therapist. She lives vagina, a Saskatchewan. Like I said, she has a master's degree in community health and epidemiology. Her particular areas of focus includes social policy and community development, program evaluation and research as well as occupational therapy. Uh, Lisa has received a number of awards for her work over the years, including the Y. M. C s 2000 and eight Women of Distinction Award. In the area of wellness, recreation and healthy living. She has a long history of working with people of, uh, individuals of f a s T. This includes assessments and interventions for people with coat concurrent disorders such as F A s t intellectual disabilities, childhood trauma and mental health issues. She has authored studies exploring homelessness and adults without fasd development. F A s T mentoring program conducted evaluations of F A s T support programs and provided occupational therapy services for people with F A S t. And her voice is amazing. She should be reading audiobooks. Ladies and gentlemen, let's get to the interview with Lisa is go. Lisa Brown's the is Ah, welcome to the show. I I really appreciate you being here. Thanks so much.
spk_1: 8:49
You're welcome. I'm really honored to be here. Really? Honor, it's gonna be fun.
spk_0: 8:54
It is going to be fantastic because I always love talking to you. You've always been so kind to me. Ah, you've come onto our online courses and taught our participants there about ah, occupational therapy. People don't realize how connected the brain in the central nervous system are. So I'm glad to have you on here to provide some insight. Now there is a disclaimer. Correct. Cause you're currently practicing Could you tell the audience the disclaimer?
spk_1: 9:22
The disclaimer Is that because I'm not? I'm no longer a practicing occupational therapist. I can't do assessments and I cant do individual treatments. I can talk generally,
spk_0: 9:35
right? General entry generally about f A s t. Maybe stuff you've done in the past. Ah, but not direct treatment. Because we are going to do a little q and A from our closed group after So just a heads up. Not specific treatments, but general. And so we're going to give some insight and maybe some resources and somewhere to go somewhere to look. Ah, but just that introspective. Because not only are you on the can f a s d board, the Canada Fasd Research Network you're on the board there. Ah, former OT but also apparent. Correct? Yes, I am. Backstory, please. A How did you become a parent to an individual? Slash individuals on the spectrum Give us a little bit of that. The coming of age
spk_1: 10:25
story My son was placed in my arms back in 1980 and 1980 is a really long time ago, 40 years, as a matter of fact and but a very young time in terms of f A S t um, f A s t was first. I got a diagnosis, um, was in about 1973 bingo. And there is only one diagnosis, then fetal alcohol syndrome. You had to have the full syndrome to receive a diagnosis.
spk_0: 11:04
So that's the full facial features in the
spk_1: 11:08
size. Okay. Yeah. And so, um, he he did not have all the features. He didn't have the size differences, and he only had three of the facial differences, so he did not have a diagnosis. And, um and so we didn't know. And he was a perfect little baby who, you know, was the answer to my every dream and and totally loved. And, um, it was probably when he was started crawling that, um, I received a piece of feedback That was probably the very first, which was my He is busy. And of course, my response was the kids. Kids love to, um, learn about their environment, and he's just just needs lots of data. You needs lots of information, and things went from there. He wasn't diagnosed until he was 15. Ah, and that and that. Ah. By then we had understood that there was a spectrum and ah, and so he was diagnosed with partial F A s is what they called it in those days. So some of the some of the facial characteristics
spk_0: 12:34
some of the faith, all of the brain, yes, olives, afraid just to differentiate If you're listening, Canada, we've changed it toe f A S t with or without sentinel facial features and in other countries like the United States still use the four diagnosed four digit diagnostic code. And so that would still be a relevant a diagnosis so that that means Ah, some of the face But all of the brain and central nervous system damage after we don't we're assuming everybody's a beginner. Here on the F A s t success
spk_1: 13:07
show, there were no services at all. And that and that meant that we got the golden handshake.
spk_0: 13:16
What's the golden handshake?
spk_1: 13:18
Goodbye did Well, goodbye. Good luck. Nothing. Nothing, um and and very unsuccessful at school in terms of advocacy for him, because he has a normal i Q. And therefore he should be able to do everything. And so there was no recognition at school. There was no you know our understanding was limited, especially in those earliest really important years. And, um and he didn't get the sports that he needed. And so life became challenging for him. He was gone from my home by the time he was 16 and, um, and spend a lot of really tough years. He's doing really well now.
spk_0: 14:06
Yes, What is he doing now?
spk_1: 14:09
He works for Microsoft as an ambassador on their Xbox program, and so it's perfect for him. He has a sensory processing disorder, and part of that disorder is that he has an auditory processing disorder where he can either look at the person or he could listen to the person who's speaking to him. He can't do both. So if you think about what's that thing that we say to our kids when they're looking a what I'm talking dio Well, he can't do that. So think of the frustration he went through when I said war, the teachers that look a a ight speaking Teoh on
spk_0: 14:57
and think about he was listening the whole time when we thought he was ignoring and looking away. He was actually
spk_1: 15:03
it was listening exactly. That was how he could focus. So this is the perfect job for him. He wears his earphones, He's got his microphone. He can hear the person. He never sees the person he's going through the Xbox scene with, Um so he's on screen doing that. But he never has to see the people he's working with. He can listen. It's the perfect job.
spk_0: 15:31
That is amazing. It hasn't been always like this. We've talked before this, so he he's that there's a difference. He wasn't accommodated and wasn't understood early on. But then you also have another child who waas and has a different
spk_1: 15:50
yes. So there's nine years between my daughter and my son. Um, she's nine years younger, and in those nine years our understanding of F A S t really changed and the school system started to recognize those changes. And the, um and society began to understand those changes so that there were supports in place. Um, when she had her diagnosis, which was in grade two, Ah, at the beginning of great to the teacher said exactly the same thing about my daughter that the great to cheat teacher had said about my son and that waas I hate to say it that a teacher would say this, but both times it was That child is just lazy. They're staring out the window all the time. They're not. They're
spk_0: 16:47
not in
spk_1: 16:47
trying. Yes. So I had some by then, I was working in the world of F A S T and had really good connections, so I knew where to immediately take her. So she was diagnosed that fall and with an amazing report that that, in a very functional way described what was needed for her. And that report was useful throughout her school career. And, um, and every year I took it out and waved the dust off and went through with with the teachers. So she had supports in high school, for example, she had a Nen school tutor, Um, for a period every day, and the in school tutor went around to all the teachers, found out what she was supposed to be working on, and then, um, worked with her around that so they kept that in school. Tutor capture organized on top of things. And my daughter has amazing ability to conceptualize but is very scattered in her thinking. Getting there so she would write down a first draft, let's say of a paper, and the teacher would then help her organize those thoughts. And that is what helped her graduate from high school and then from postsecondary. And so she has, Ah, youth care certificate and, um is currently lives independently. I do a lot of supporting,
spk_0: 18:32
but is that yes. What is the magic behind that? Because as soon as people say independently, Ah, there's a lot more going on, right?
spk_1: 18:41
Yes, and she's had huge struggles, huge struggles in that transition and and and still, But she's she's doing amazingly, she has, Ah, a 21 month old who I do a fair amount of co parenting, and, ah, and she also gets support from Eagle Heart Center here, Family Center here in Regina. It and yes, and they provide mentoring support. Month weekly. She's part of kids first, and the first year they are. They come to the home. The home visitor comes in once a week and now once a month. Because my granddaughters, over a year, um, and my daughter is also working six hours a week, and the integrated Justice program, which is a wonderful new program that will hopefully be a model for, uh, Canada. Uh, and she goes into court, um, and identifies potential people with complex cognitive challenges such as F A s t. And, um, approaches them, approaches their lawyer, and, um and then, ah, helps them meet up with the professionals. Ah, to work with them around. Alternate sentencing.
spk_0: 20:16
Okay, because it's wet because of the, you know, the cognitive differences.
spk_1: 20:22
That's right. We know that there's way more people in jail with f a S t then should be, um and so And we know that jail doesn't particularly help people with f a S t. So we try and push for alternate sentencing that works.
spk_0: 20:44
Yes, and it's and it's working. And I bet you it is, you know, absolutely working. I'm glad you came out of the gate with success stories, right, But they're you know, you're the tale of two cities, almost your son with no recognition at first and your daughter with ah, and how that could have turned out differently for your son. Like luckily, things got on because it's it's it's even in the last five years, it wasn't like this. Absolutely so I I when I were doing these podcasts or I'm interviewing somebody I'd never want to make the distance far away from you and a in an a caregiver Who's going through this. Do you see what I'm saying? So Ah, yes, success is possible, but this is what success looks like and we don't not. Every day is Sunshine and and Rameau's
spk_1: 21:36
No, by my daughter's life is really, really tough. It's really challenging. She's a single parent. She's on a very low income. Um and, um, and parenting isn't easy. Um, and ah, she's She's very lucky toe have so many supportive people in her life. And truly it is taking a community,
spk_0: 22:02
really does. And with her want a swell
spk_1: 22:05
yes, and And the reality is, things could go downhill next week.
spk_0: 22:10
Absolutely right. It's great now, and it it and for our online course that I teach. The goal is to get caregivers off the roller coaster. So whether we're doing well, you know, when our kids doing well, where it's almost euphoria, right? Yeah. Ah, and then when they're not, it's a plunge. It's like a roller coaster. So how could we keep just maintain whether it's going well or whether it isn't for our own sanity. Six. You think for the work lives? Absolutely. Now you also your caregiver right now, right? You
spk_1: 22:44
know, I'm raising Ah, 16 year old grandchild. He came to me when he was 11 on, and he'll never be diagnosed with f A s t he, um um does have a diagnosis learning difficulties and ah, and 80 HD and Ah, significantly, PTSD. Um, his early years were very challenging. That's a loss. Yeah. So he's, um he's, um slowly but surely been. Ah, been doing better and better. He waas probably four years behind academically, and he climbed out of his reading level, Went up almost six grades in the 1st 6 months. He was with us. Um, so there's been huge improvement in his life. He went from not reading meeting academic standards to currently in grade 10. He's probably about a 70 average.
spk_0: 23:59
What's the what was the difference? Like, I'm sure, environment, But it z, it's not your not a wizard. You didn't wave a wand and give him a hug, and he just started upping his reading.
spk_1: 24:12
Um, no, it's his. He's got stability um, he was the main caregiver for his 2/2 siblings and his his parent. Um, he because of that, he missed. Um, so 45 school days the year before he came to us, even with being in a special program. And the bus driver who would knock on the apartment door, Um ah. He missed a lot of school. Um, he didn't have any therapy. So right away, he became he, um we were able to get art therapy going for him, and that's been perfect. When he came to us, he could not speak about his life, but he could draw. He could paint it, he could sing it. He could.
spk_0: 25:06
So good. Right? So art therapy?
spk_1: 25:10
Yes. And, um and he also attended ah, special program through child and Youth services for Children. First fall one program for Children of alcoholics and addicts. And that all of a sudden he was surrounded with other kits who had similar experiences, and we're all learning that it wasn't their fault, Um, and that it wasn't their job to parent their parents. Um, so it was so those kinds of programs really, really helped him, and we just really worked on stability in the home and routine structure and all of those things that that we know work.
spk_0: 25:55
Now, you talked about as being an occupational therapist. When he came, he didn't sleep, right? Do we have that conversation before?
spk_1: 26:04
Right? We did. So, um, from a sensory And from a, uh um, emotional standpoint, he did not. He did not sleep. And so, um, right away, I instituted bedtime story. He was 11. Bedtime story. Um, me singing.
spk_0: 26:26
Poor kit. No way. You got a great voice.
spk_1: 26:30
Um, and ah, massage. So back massage, head massage and therapeutic sound machine when I stopped singing and that was gentle waves hitting the shore, Um, covers over the windows that were totally light proof. So totally total dark out returns. So he didn't get any shadows in the room. And, um, and lights led lights that were very gentle again. So he had both the dark out, so we didn't see things like shadows. But then he had the led lights so he could see if anybody came into his room. Um, so the room was a big danger. So bedroom was a big danger zone when he was living previously with with Family.
spk_0: 27:22
So safety and accommodations and one of my favorite sayings that I heard. And now I will take it for me with me forever. Dr. Mansfield Melas says sleep is the restorer of all systems. Yes. So even getting him better sleep must have increased his functioning, which, you know, attributed to this catch up academically.
spk_1: 27:44
Yes. So? So the the and and so he's had the love in the safety and the belongingness, and he's been able to be a kid.
spk_0: 27:55
But not always Sunshine and rainbows.
spk_1: 27:58
That's right. So so recently, we believe, had some challenges. Um, not only have we had Cove it and the loss of school eso cove it for somebody with PTSD Will. Right again. Um, there they're not feeling safe. And they're feeling late, less safe, um, and loss of that anchor of school every day and homework and seeing your friends, Um, and at the same time, his grandfather, my former husband, died. And yeah, and, um and and his world really fell apart. And so he went right back into not sleeping, totally withdrawing from people only wanting to spend time in his room. I think, Um up until the last couple of weeks when things have started turning around. Ah, he had been outside maybe twice through this whole covert time. And, um, and really, really hard to talk him out of its room. So So
spk_0: 29:07
sorry again, I don't mean toe interrupt, but no, that that's almost would be because on my in my close group, I've been hearing about a lot of the word has been regression. Yes, is Could that be why? Right. So, uh, everything has changed. Those anchors aren't there,
spk_1: 29:27
and they're hearing scary news every day, and some of them will be losing loved ones as well.
spk_0: 29:36
So the regression comes. They go back to the old way of coping, which might not a healthy way.
spk_1: 29:42
That's right. It's just like I know that being a yelling mum is not the way to go. But when I'm stressed out, that's where I'm gonna fall back to you. I regress, and it's the same thing with our kids. They've learned better coping ways. They've learned, um, better ways of calming down. They've learned better ways of interacting with other people and all those big, long list of things. But in times like this. They're gonna fall back. They've lost their anchors. School is such an important anchor to people. And all of a sudden, people being at home can be really stressful. A swell.
spk_0: 30:30
Not only have their anchors Jr been ripped out, parents anchors ripped out the whole dynamic social. Yes, definitely contribute to regression.
spk_1: 30:40
Yeah, And here in Canada, the stats can has come out saying that we're drinking more. So parents are less reliable right now because they're drinking. Um, depending on your situation, it's hard to get out. So my grandsons half siblings live in ah ha in a apartment complex in Ontario, and they can easily leave their apartment at all. Yeah, no, don't, Um and that's that's so just being able to find a space for yourself becomes hard. It's hard from a sensory standpoint.
spk_0: 31:21
Great Segway. Let's do this. I I just get enthralled in the story like, you know, I like to hear how they're doing. I think it's important for parents to hear it. I know folks were like, Ah, what about the sensory? Tell me what I need to know. Here's what we are going to talk about. We were going to talk about. You know, the title of the podcast is the eighth cents. Now, there you have mentioned before and in and hearing you speak. And it's also known in the in the O t world that there are seven senses current. Yes, and we're going to talk about the 8th 1 So what are the seven sentences? I'm going to take a guess. The five our sight smell, taste touch here? Yes. And what is six in what is seven?
spk_1: 32:12
So we have vestibular, which is your sense of where your body is in space and pro PRI exception, which is where your limbs, where your body parts are if they're moving and where they're moving to. So if you're sitting in drinking a glass of water that your hands around the glass and it's in your hand and your lifting it to your mouth and drinking from a so both pro Prius emption and vestibular getting into place their cause, you're moving your head. So the brain is knowing that you're moving your body and, um, and then the messages going that your hands are moving to our senses, tell our brain everything that's going on in the outside world without without those seven cents is the brain is kind of frozen, isn't it? Um, and it doesn't know what's happening out there. So those seven senses are important in not just telling the brain about what's just going on out there, but also if if the body, if the self is safe um so the senses all go through. Ah, most of the sentence senses the 1st 5 all go through the Mikola region, which is fight flight freeze area. And they tell the braid whether it's safe or not, whether it needs to get the heck out of there, whether it needs to stand in attack or whether it needs toe
spk_0: 33:50
your lot get small. Any quiet?
spk_1: 33:54
Yes. So, um um, those said the senses air really critical to us, Um, and and because they start developing very early in the pregnancy Ah, they if Mama if it's an unplanned pregnancy and mom is still drinking, then the alcohol can effect those senses on the MC Gilla and um and therefore people with F a s t have a greater chance of having sensory processing challenges
spk_0: 34:39
because what we now know is that FTSE is a whole body diagnosis.
spk_1: 34:44
That's right,
spk_0: 34:45
right? And but everything again, not the quote. Dr Mel. I've been listening to him a lot lately, and he said there isn't an organ in the body that isn't effect did by prenatal alcohol exposure. But what we do know is that it's not only the brain Ah, that develops from, you know, right from conception all the way to nine months and beyond. But the central nervous system does as well. And so when we introduce alcohol to the development of those systems, it could certainly mess up not only the external sensory systems like the five senses, but to internal ones that you just ah mentioned, which is vestibular and pro pre accepted.
spk_1: 35:26
That's right, and they really affect balance and coordination.
spk_0: 35:30
And so that's the way they could look clumsy, right?
spk_1: 35:33
That's right. They can look clumsy. Um, so let's say they may feel really yucky on a swing, or they may be really scared to climb because it doesn't feel right. They may be really scared to go down a slide. Ah, so those are the kinds of signs of the stipulate er and pro precept of problems and little kids. They may have real difficulty learning how to throw that ball. How to coordinate those Siris of actions or kick a ball ha pig running. Those may all be challenges because of problems with the vestibular and, um, and pro precept of systems. When they start drawing, they may have difficulty divine developing the fine motor skills that they need. So the and those air kind of baseline skills you need to be able to then go on to use the rest of the century system to learn and understand and grow. So the whole of the academics gets affected by that, too.
spk_0: 36:43
It's amazing. And to think back, I remember this time because, you know, I'd make it no secret. I believe one of my sisters is on the spectrum. She was once on my back, and I was just I kept leaning over farther and farther, leaning over, let her go slowly off and slide off my back. She didn't put her hands up. No, she just slid right off the interface and grand.
spk_1: 37:07
Yeah, that wanted that Reflects was she hadn't that reflex was wasn't there,
spk_0: 37:15
and we totally take it for granted that our brain is able to not only not only taking all this information, compartmentalized all the information that's coming in and then store it. What's important, what's not important? Uh, what's is safe? What's not safe? And if the brain does not have the ability to regulate those senses coming in, that's where we have sensory processing disorder. And, like this rate century dis regulation, I think, as the term. And so, if that is affected, their reactions, the individuals reactions to the physical environment. Ah, is where you could see the mouth. Doubts. When it gets overwhelmed, the brain gets overwhelmed in a melts down. Correct?
spk_1: 38:05
Yes, yes. So, ah ah, really good example of that is going shopping at five. When you come to the WalMart, a big or superstore big store, and you wander in with your child, you don't necessarily warn them or prepare them for going in. You just grab a cart and in you go and you go to grab those things and get out as fast as you can. And, um, you find that that a few minutes into it, it's noisy. There's bright lights. There's all these brightly colored things in all the lanes. Ah, there's people talking. There's kids crying, There's noises galore. There's visuals galore, and, um, and everybody's kind of irritable because it's before supper. Everybody's cut a tired cause. It's been a long day and, um, and Child says, I want that candy and you say, No, we're getting milk today, sweetie, and they fall to the floor and start screaming and throwing their arms and legs. And they're in a complete melt out. And they've just been completely over taken by all the action around them. Their senses are completely, um, done in and the only way they can react us through that meltdown sometimes. So my daughter wasn't amount down, child, but she literally would fall asleep in the shopping cart
spk_0: 39:38
cause they're bringing Did that interning.
spk_1: 39:44
She would just freeze so she would fall asleep in the cart. I was lucky.
spk_0: 39:50
Yeah, jeez, because it could been the other way around. And for some, it is the other way around because if if you're not able to regulate, then you're going to have issues with, um Ah, like sleeping is going to be an issue. If your brain ah, down stop firing. Right. That that could be an issue. A swell cortical arousal. Ah, get into that. That's That's not me. That's doctor. Well, uh ah. It affects your like emotions, your your affect. You know, your ability to regulate yourself. Ah, and like concentrating foot meant managing focused attention. There's no way you could do that. Uh, that happens to me all the time, too. If I'm working and someone interrupts, it's restarting and getting into it. So I suffer from those consequences. And I would consider myself pretty neuro typical. I believe most of us would also have some sensory issues as well. Like bright light boy is
spk_1: 40:50
yes, All of us have sensory differences. All of us have have a sense or two senses that do better than the others, right? I might be able to visualize things much better than I can process them. Auditory aly. Um, I may I might be I'm I have no ability to draw. So my fine motor skills are
spk_0: 41:14
Yeah. Welcome. Bathroom welcome.
spk_1: 41:16
Yeah, so probably I probably have some pro pri deceptive. Does it affect my life? Does it affect my ability to work to cope at home, to interact with the community? Not a bit, so those sensory differences are fine. You have amazing brains. Amazing people like, for example, Einstein who? You know, he didn't learn toe walk till he was six or seven. He didn't learn to talk to. Lee was six or seven. Probably he would have been diagnosed with some sort of thing, but look what he was able to do. Um, you have artists who, um, and geniuses who changed the way that we think and see because their brains work differently.
spk_0: 42:08
That's brings it back to like Temple Grandin. How even in the beef industry, even with the cattle, that movie is amazing and it would be such insight into the sensory system. Claire Danes does absolutely terrific job before we move on. We've talked about this before us. So we mentioned a meltdown. And that's the brains inability, absolute inability to filter and control what's going on. So you know, they go to the fight flight or freeze. But there's also a difference between a meltdown and a tantrum, correct?
spk_1: 42:40
Yes, there is so a meltdown. You can't just stop it by giving them that candy. They're just they're gone. And so you know, you may want to crouch down, quietly, talk to them, Just make them know that they're safe. Ask people to move away. Um, you may be forced to carry them out of that store to be ableto help. Then help them settle. Um, it may be that they'll accept a deep hug. It may be that that they can't, um, with ah with somebody who's just, uh, who is able to control it. So the tantrum you have them, the candy and the tantrum ENTs, they're done. There may be a few kind of, you know, signs of it, but basically, they're back in control. They've almost never left control. It's not a complete meltdown. So you need to learn to figure out the difference with your child. Is this a meltdown? Um, or is this a tantrum? And if it's a tantrum, is this a situation where I want to feed into it or do I want to just do I want to say no and keep on saying no? Is this one worth the fight over
spk_0: 44:10
that picking your battles? What do you think like you've had? Ah, you know, kids, grandkids with learning differences, challenge on the spectrum. Would you emphatically safer sanity savings sake that that is one of the key aspects of
spk_1: 44:24
absolutely learning to pick your battles. That's one. Number two is not taking it personally,
spk_0: 44:30
right? Absolutely, My friend. Ah, an individual on the spectrum. RJ Formanek said it might be happening to you, but it's not about you. And that was great. Introspective. It's perfect in regards to that. Ah, I guess it gets. It's also the parents getting over that they're they're not pulling the wool over your eyes, you know, they're not trying to take advantage of you. And and you have to ask yourself, Is this worth the struggle? The power struggle? Yes, because they only leave you powerless. I've I've had times where I've been so mad and he says, You know, I want to do this or give me this or do that You know, I talk about my former foster guy and I'm like, No, no, I am the adult. You will do
spk_1: 45:14
as I say. You're a kid,
spk_0: 45:16
man. You can't push me around. You can't do this again. And then next. You know, here we get into a fight to get into a fight, and I feel like crap afterwards and nothing got results.
spk_1: 45:25
Absolutely. Um, those power struggles momentarily. You're gonna feel great because you have maintained power. But in the long term, um, you haven't And so you need to wait until there's a time that you can actually talk through it or play through it or work through whatever you wanna want a way. You want to look at it. Um, those power struggles you're always gonna lose.
spk_0: 45:51
I don't I don't like losing, but it is. It's for sanity, for its for the long run, and especially when we're dealing with the situation right now. Now, let's get to the the big key here. Seven cents is we've talked about those five external to internal. And what is the eight sense?
spk_1: 46:13
So the eighth Sense is intrasection div sensation. And that is basically that the that. The information that the brain gets from the insides of the body about how it's feeling, So is my bladder ful. Do I get that sensation of fullness as my stomach full? Do I get that sensation of fullness? Um, is the inside of my gall bladder giving me pain so much? My daughter was misdiagnosed for almost a year for having gall bladder disease. And instead it she was being diagnosed with having back pain. And that's because when they palp aided her stomach, she couldn't feel the pain in her stomach because she has f a S t She was feeling it in her back on dso she ended up in emergency, you know, time after time, until finally she had the right diagnosis. So that's a problem of introspective intercept of rather, um, sensation.
spk_0: 47:30
Is this an emerging sense, or is it like we're ready? I am sorry. Where is it? In the scientific community.
spk_1: 47:38
So we've known that that it's around for a long time, but the implications, I think, are just starting to unfold, especially around people with complex cognitive challenges like F A, S, T and S T, um, autism spectrum disorder. Uh, and and some of it is pretty controversial, Especially the mental health end of things, so that how would play out in a mental health perspective from my understanding and I'm just delving into this is that, um I'm knowing that you're feeling sad. For example, what is your feeling right now? That's the question. So, um, my grandson has gone from hair over his eyes. Um, kind of glowering at everybody all the time to, um, cutting, wanting his hair cut so that you can see the whole face. And there's a ah, wonderful, joyous look to his face almost all the time this week. Um, and you ask him if he's feeling any different, he'll say, Not a bit. So all of a sudden that opens up lots of thoughts about when you start taking that intercept of system into account, there's a better understanding. So is it that my child isn't learning to use the potty because her bladder never tells her it's full and that it's time to use the body? That intercept of sense of bladder fullness isn't there? Um, I'm just using this as an example. It's not necessarily my daughter I'm talking about.
spk_0: 49:42
I'm thinking about you have parents that I know and, uh, incontinence issues. Yes, right. Uh, eating
spk_1: 49:51
issue. That's right. That fullness. Now it's more complex than that. And this is where you really need the help of somebody You knows what they're doing. Um, so So there's also in the midbrain. So one of the oldest developing areas of the brain again. Earliest from a pregnancy standpoint, Um, the the there is a hunger area there, right? So is it that Hungary area that's affected? Or is it the sensory? Ah ah, pieces of the stomach, that air telling. And that's something that an expert needs toe really go into
spk_0: 50:38
like an expert is An occupational therapist would know how to do that already or even deeper than that. Like us. Like a specialists,
spk_1: 50:48
Um, it would be a well trained occupational therapist on a well trained, um, specialist who's interested in the area.
spk_0: 51:00
Yeah, which even getting people to understand FAA is d is tough, right? That's right Now to have these other layers true. But this is the first time I've been introduced to this. It makes sense. And I'm just I always have the picture of the caregivers in my head and the questions I've heard and the things I've been asked about, and this totally makes sense to that. But, ah, the best caps, would you say, like, um is an assessment, right to talk absolutely like So we're not flying by the seat of our pants like Tell me about the importance of, ah, occupational assessment.
spk_1: 51:39
Occupational therapists work not just with sensory processing, but with, um, with the whole body and, um, and your ability to function in daily activities and tasks. So is an occupational therapist I worked not just with the sensory, not just with balance and coordination, but, um, but with fine motor control. So in the school system, I might work with proper seating with a child how they might improve the fine motor control so that they're able to write and print better. Um, I might work around gym activities that will help build balance and control as well as the sensory activities in ah rehab setting. I would be working with, ah, with how to make their home accessible the kinds of wheelchairs they might need. The, um, the kinds of activities build up their activities to work independently in the kitchen, in the home. Um, I might make everything work to making things accessible for them. At ah, at work, I would again be working around accessibility and how to build up function so they could do tasks and how they could do the same tasks differently. So we work throughout the lifetime with people from the earliest age up until the last stages. So in palliative care in places like that, but a sensory assessment, a sensory function is going to give you a really good feel for how the person a really good understanding of what the person seeks from a century standpoint and what they run away from, ah, what they would like not to be near. So that child who doesn't want to swing the question is asked, Why is it that they don't want to swing? What is it? So once you discover the why of that, you can set up a program for them. So it's a to get a better understanding, Um, and know what's OK to demand and what's not okay to demand of your child. So, um, for example, my daughter, uh, I'm really into music and I love live music. I have a brother who, uh, was, ah, part of several bands that would come across Canada in the world, and we would go to performances from a very from when she was very young and she would we go in early, we would sit there and the place would fill up, and she'd start by talking away, and then she get quieter and quieter and quieter. Is the amount of buildup at the louder got the more people, the more visuals. Even if we were out front, she was aware of all that was going on around her. The band would come on and she fall a slew.
spk_0: 54:53
Jeez, just like it should. Just like shopping. Just like if she
spk_1: 54:57
that's right, she would. And 20 minutes later, she would be up on her feet dancing. Her big brain would do a reset and up. She would be interacting totally happy. Wow,
spk_0: 55:12
because I I am aware that not all individuals on the spectrum amount down or frustrated. It's it's not physical fighting, kicking, spitting, yelling. It could be a simple is shut down. Yes, right. It's like the button of the mouse when you click it too many times.
spk_1: 55:29
That's right. So what the teacher was seeing in the classroom before she was diagnosed? When Midori was staring out the window when my daughter was staring out the window was shut down
spk_0: 55:42
because she's overwhelmed, topped out.
spk_1: 55:43
She was overwhelmed. So she is in the classroom. Um, she would actually say to me that she couldn't hear what the teacher was saying because she was hearing all the shuffling of papers. Kids moving in the desk, pencils falling off the desk, Theo the the air conditioning being on the traffic flowing outside the voices of people in the hall. She was unable an auditory processing disorder where she could not, um her brain could not shut down the the noises she didn't need to listen to versus the one she did need to read a teacher. So once she put a microphone on the teacher and an aide and Midori Zeer, she was just fine
spk_0: 56:32
off often running. There s So what happened was the young man that I was the first ah, foster parent to I didn't really understand. Ah, occupational therapy. I didn't understand the real The sensory system was new at this. Ah, then you know the treatment plan was for him to go get an occupational assessment and it was squeezing the balls and she was just like, try this, feel this squeezes. How does it feel? You know, he liked it cause, you know, try this. Do you like it? Do you don't like it? Ah, and I I didn't realize what she was doing. And then at the end, she had this assessment and said he likes this this distance, This he would benefit from this distance. This this And we went out with him to buy these things. And what I didn't realize is he liked Laval lamps. He liked the strobe e. You know that the neon light yes, stuff for you to a stuff that would probably give me a seizure, to be honest with you. Ah, and this chair that spun that hung from the wall. We implemented this into his room. And what a difference it made because we no longer called. We no longer called it a time out when either I was getting frustrated. He was getting frustrated. We called it a brain break and he was able to go back into his room. And so instead of feeling like he was being punished, he was able to self soothe like it with the ultimate soothing room. You is to get you back to your baseline as quick as possible. And that's what he needed and what he liked. And he would come out when he was ready. Now One of the important things was my reception to his readiness because he might not have been totally ready. So instead of saying because of what I would have said, Are you ready to act like an adult? Like, Are you ready toe grown? You know you're ready. What? Patronising. I can't believe I said that any who? Ah, and you know, sometimes you'd be like,
spk_1: 58:28
No, great, I'll be right back. And I need to go back to Tokyo already. But that's harder knowing
spk_0: 58:34
he wasn't in trouble at fault and that he just is brain needto calm down. So we had a brain break? Uh, totally, absolutely changed. It was one of the factors that changed his life.
spk_1: 58:46
And the and those brain breaks don't need to be long one right in the classroom. It could simply be that you get all the students up and have them do while push ups for, you know, 10 wall push ups. You put a backpack on a child with books in them and and have them run down to the principal and pick up another book back and bring it up to the classroom. It could be 15 minutes of raking the lawn. It could be doing just a little bit of back. You make, um, those breaks can come into that could be blowing bubbles.
spk_0: 59:21
Oh, that's nice. And an occupational therapist would know this and would on that's and this and know how to approach it. So that's what we're wrecking. How does somebody go? Is it just a referral from a doctor again? People are listening to all this all over the world, so it's different, probably in different parts. But general, generally
spk_1: 59:41
generally, um, it depends where you are. You can do a direct referral. Um, here in Saskatchewan, um, so So what happens here is when you're young preschool, you can get referred into a rehab program that has occupational therapy. Um, and that could be paid for by the system. Once you get into school, it's unlikely that that public system is is available for you. So you would go into you would have the school occupational therapist come in now. Part of the problem is that there's less and less availability of those services, as as schools or cutting programming rial. So people are having to either access other public funding to get the services they need. And that's where you need a really good advocate. Um, help you get there or if you have a private insurance, thunder, who will fund those kinds of services would be the it's It's not easy, Um, and like I say, having an advocate working with you to help, um is a big part of it. Um, if you are First Nations and those services aren't easily available than and you can access special Jordan's principle to be able to access those those services, and that's really remarkable in great I know several lt's who were privately who they've been able to. Jordan's principle has given them a kind of a bank of money to be able to use with a certain number of of First Nations, people who who are able to apply and get the yes for that. So it's not nearly as onerous and difficult. We also have here a cognitive disabilities program that the provincial government has, and you and some people can access services that way again. You need to fight for them.
spk_0: 1:2:00
It is there a place people can go if they don't have any of that to learn more about that
spk_1: 1:2:09
There, lots of place. There's there's some really good look. So there's, um, three books that that I can recommend. They're not cheap, though, but you might be able to get them from the library once called Zones of Regulation. And there's, Ah, an Internet pro Ah, site for that W W w zones of regulation dot com. Um, there's me moves, which is, ah, thinking moves dot com. Ah, there's how does your engine run? Which W W W dot alert program dot com New to the program? Um And then there's a book called The Sensory Connection Program. Ah, living sensationally understanding your senses by when he done. She does a lot of of training and and that's that could be available.
spk_0: 1:3:13
Great. I'll put them up in the show. Notes For folks,
spk_1: 1:3:15
there's lots of ideas on Pinterest. A swell
spk_0: 1:3:18
OK, no, that's good.
spk_1: 1:3:20
Ah, lot of things that you would use can be things that are around your home anyway. If you're seeing an O. T. And you've got sensory motor challenges, they're probably going to use a vibrating brush program. Now that's a highly specialized brush that would be used, but there's nothing saying you can't use a vibrating toothbrush and and use that both on the teeth and the gums and and the tongue, um, and use it in between meals to. And that may help with some of the over eating the needing to have things in the mouth over time, all the time. And so if you use that vibration of May help, you can even use it on the outside along the jaw line and a to the joints especially, um
spk_0: 1:4:15
so that is that for people that are chewers like sorry for the
spk_1: 1:4:20
poor chewers and people who are, um, there's so there's people who don't like the taste of things. Okay, people who don't like I'm just gonna plug in.
spk_0: 1:4:33
Don't do. You don't see she's ribbon around her office, right? Yeah, this is descriptive
spk_1: 1:4:38
radio. Yes, So there's there's people who don't like the taste of something, um, and their stomach motor. Importantly, their stomach reacts to what they they eat. Or and there's people who don't like the sensation of certain foods. So how feels in their mouth versus how it tastes, so they might not like the feel of oatmeal in their mouth. They may not like the feel of, um, apple sauce or cottage cheese, And, um, and they may react really strongly to heat or cold. You know more than you think that they should be for having, um, that stake in their mouth. Okay, so you want to desensitize the mouth, and one of the ways that you can do that is through vibration. I
spk_0: 1:5:38
don't even know that you're so smart.
spk_1: 1:5:41
Um, so So that's that's an and and sometimes the job own wants a lot of input and so having something they can really bite down on. So jewelry is used for that.
spk_0: 1:5:58
I I heard it that is there a chemical that is he like, is it Ah, the serotonin or something that's released from your job?
spk_1: 1:6:08
Can be Yes,
spk_0: 1:6:09
right. That's chewing is a soothing thing is Well,
spk_1: 1:6:12
that's to keep it ISS. So, um, so there's all kinds of activities you can do. Blowing bubbles. Um, putting a straw in with your milk and blowing. Making the milk into bubbles is another one. Um uh, having a water bottle that has the kind of top on that you have toe really suck on to get the liquid out of, um, sometimes I've had kids make, um Ah, cheerio. Necklaces on ah, on, uh, either cloth or something like that on string Or, uh,
spk_0: 1:6:59
like the candy necklace, but with
spk_1: 1:7:00
your Yep. And so that's a little crunch that they get every time they eat one, and they don't get the sweets. Um, I want to say, what is the dental product that you clean your teeth with? That's when thinking of Jeff, I've lost the word devil flaws so you can put it on dental floss. You can put Cheerios on dental floss, make it into a necklace, and they can chew on it, and they get that little
spk_0: 1:7:30
Yeah, down. I'm picturing. Yeah,
spk_1: 1:7:32
yeah, yeah. And that way, you're not over sugaring in them. You could do the same thing with the jewelry, but base bracelet. So this what I'm saying is things don't have to be expensive. You just need to think creatively about what you have in your home and what you can use. You may not be able to afford a slide, but you could make a slide out of out of cardboard boxes that can go down. Let's say the back step, which is in my art, is only 45 steps. And there you've got a little slide for for your kettles to use
spk_0: 1:8:08
that is so
spk_1: 1:8:09
true Think creatively
spk_0: 1:8:11
and understand where there's sensory needs are
spk_1: 1:8:14
that's right. So becoming a sensory detective yourself noticing, um when what were the precedence for the behavior? So really thinking about what was happening just before that melt out? Um, what was happening just before we had supper? Did we have supper on our late? Did we, um, was there a test at school? Um, you know, what are the precedence that led up to whatever we're seeing in that person? It's not behaviors that symptoms right that they're giving us of what's been happening. And so as we start thinking it through and and trying out different things so you won't have a no t, um, if you're not able to access one Well, how can I think in these ways how Kanai trial things? And yes, there will be lots of things that won't work. But you'll start building up your own, um, Siris of that of your sensory diet. That way, those activities that really work for the person you'll work out that, um that they really feel good when you put a whole bunch of cushions on them and press, they really feel good when you wrap them up in a big blanket like a tortilla and press down on them. Um, that that that if they're doing some heavy work, then you've got about 1/2 a Knauer to an hour when they can actually do school work.
spk_0: 1:9:57
Ah, that is 100%. That is so. That is so smart. Um, literally. I could make this podcast 24 hours because there's so much stuff, but there's a couple things I want to get to. Why, okay, We already talked about sensory processing disorder. You touched on audio processing. Would I want to discuss is often times individuals will pass a hearing test. Yes, but they still have audio processing issues. Can you explain how that is?
spk_1: 1:10:26
So there's a difference between audio and visual ends, any kind of sensory acuity. So a Q T is how well we we hear how well we see how well we feel. What we're talking about in the actual processing is a brain interior brain function where there are many sites the process and integrate what we see, hear, touch, smell and taste. And there could be injuries in those areas that have nothing to do with our acuity. So we can put on our glasses and be able to see everything's focused out there, but the great big tree in my backyard. I can see that it's a tree, but my brain translates it to something else. And so it's processing things differently with site, for example. There are, I believe, 13 different areas of the brain that process what we see. So you can't tell me that some area of somebody has been exposed to alcohol. There's got to be one or two areas that are gonna be affected, right? So the processing is gonna be affected of what they see or hear all of those. And that's why it's so common for people with F A S T
spk_0: 1:12:05
They popped. They pass the beep test.
spk_1: 1:12:07
Yes, so then they're specialized audiologist who could assess the processing part of it. Not all audiologists cat And of course, that means usually extra.
spk_0: 1:12:21
Yeah, no, I know. Ah, that's uncovering. But there's a why there's a reason why kids still struggle. But then they're hearing tests. Say that they're fine, that parents like I don't get it, you know?
spk_1: 1:12:34
Yes. Yes. So? So I would rather air on the thinking. There's more going on than the thinking that this kid is just trying to roll one on a me. Why would this child want to do that? Why would this child want to not function well? They're very very. I can't. I can't think of a child who I've known who has a wonder wanted better in life.
spk_0: 1:13:05
Preach it, Preach it. I stand there. Ah, you know, luckily been able to go all over the world. And one of the things I say is when you ask someone a kid what they wanted to be when they grow up or someone asked you. I never heard someone stand up and say, Listen, when I grow up, I want to be an asshole. Yeah. I want to make or have
spk_1: 1:13:24
spent my life in
spk_0: 1:13:25
jail. I want to make my parents life a living Hell, I don't make any friends at school. I wanna have trouble in school. Don't want to make it past great eight. So on its own a drug czar. Nobody. Nobody.
spk_1: 1:13:37
That's right.
spk_0: 1:13:38
So, e. I like that. I'd rather take the position that something else is going on rather than you know this is willful or meaningful or purposeful.
spk_1: 1:13:48
That's right, Fisher.
spk_0: 1:13:49
A great insight Last last thing before because I want to get some questions. And thank you. You've been so generous with your time. Ah, when I first met you and I was talking about the sensory system Ah, you gave me some feedback. You said I was talking about being hypersensitive or hypo sensitive, hypersensitive, which means you could really feel something Hypo sensitive means, you know, you're almost desensitized and you can't feel something. Ah, which explained why, my guy Well, he wore shorts in the winter time and you couldn't feel well like you poked him or burn him or start like, you know, he had cigarette holes from people burning because he thought he was cool that way he couldn't feel it. So ah, can you tell us really quickly before we get to the questions? You know the difference between hyper and hypo and how you can be both of those in one sense. If that makes sense. Remember what you told me? I don't.
spk_1: 1:14:49
Yeah, well, and and it's true. So So, um, hyper sensitive tends to be highly reactive type of person. Who? You, um, if for example, um, you spice up a meal and they taste it, and it's just really, really, really spicy, even though you just did a little bit of spice in there. To them, it's really spicing. So that's, uh, there, There, there. They want to avoid that. So that somebody who will avoid that that tasted that feeling. Um and and hypo is the opposite. You could fill up a smudge spice into that food, and they won't react at all. But they may react when it hits their stomach. Gaja and that intercept of system, um, clicks in and let sends this message to the brain, and they end up getting sick,
spk_0: 1:15:54
right? So although they can't feel it, they feel their mouths right.
spk_1: 1:15:58
They can feel it afterwards. Um, so one of the complex things that happens is that a person may appear to be a no avoider and hypersensitive when actually, they're the opposite. And what they're doing is they're upping the, um they're they're trying to take in enough sensation so that they can react so that they're gonna peter hyper in how they go about doing that.
spk_0: 1:16:34
And then
spk_1: 1:16:34
until they get enough
spk_0: 1:16:35
till they get enough
spk_1: 1:16:38
and then there. Usually they could be over the top, of course, because their system, Then it'll kick in and kick in. Kick in. That's so interesting. Does that make sense?
spk_0: 1:16:50
Yeah, absolutely. They they are going to keep consuming until, like you said, they get a reaction.
spk_1: 1:16:58
So with my daughter back in the back of the concert hall with my daughter, was she getting enough data, enough information coming in that her brain could shut down and after it had gotten enough information for 20 minutes, she could be shoot react normally? Or was it that it was just too overwhelming? And she had to shut down, period. So that's what you have to figure out with the person.
spk_0: 1:17:30
That's where way. Stand back.
spk_1: 1:17:32
And that's what you need the professional for. Really?
spk_0: 1:17:35
Yeah. The occupational therapist should be your best friend. Yes, this is good. This is when you're unraveling this onion, peeling it back, right? We start with the you know, the brain and then, ah, the sensory system and then language. And it's we don't realize. And our brains just do it, you know? And we just chug along. And if you have issues in those areas and again, it's only a problem when it impedes your ability to lead a normal day to day life.
spk_1: 1:18:06
That's right. That's right.
spk_0: 1:18:08
Awesome. You've been so cool. Are you? Ah ah and I just must say I don't know if I said it before, but you're second career or third career or fourth career. Whatever career you're on right now, you should be reading audiobooks. Ah, really honest waste. So stupid. And it's so God Ah, it is also it's almost occupational therapy in itself.
spk_1: 1:18:34
When it when I worked in rehab, I was always the person they called on to do the relax ation sections.
spk_0: 1:18:41
Yeah, no doubt. It's just something you got and it's excellent. I could just listen to you. It's great. Ah, and of course, now it's question and answer time. Ah, and again she can't give any specific treatments. But some insight is toe maybe why and where to go and where to look. Ah, and again the benefit of being in our closed group. Ah, facebook dot com slash groups slash f a S d forever is I will often post this is who I'm talking to. Do you have any direct questions? And as we get some great questions so I'm going to start with this one. This one comes from Sandy, and she says our seven year old came to us with a severe smearing issue. Any liquids, including her saliva. This seems to have resolved itself and then have has come back. Is this something that cycles?
spk_1: 1:19:30
I think we talked about this earlier. Where when? When life changes, when? When, uh when we find ourselves the typical ANC anchors air gone are scheduled changes big thing like what's happening right now with Cove. It happens then, um Then we go back to old behaviors, old symptoms, and that may be what's happening here. I don't know her the circumstances. Um, so the answer can be yes. Um, again, you need to be a detective and find out if there is anything else that's changed with with that child. And then start from the beginning again. My my daughter, my poor kids, I talk about them all the time. That's great reference. My daughter played piano and she been taking lessons for years. I sat beside her for every single practice. Um and we and she reached the point where she didn't need to have me beside her anymore. And she told me that and things went very well for quite some time. And then one day there was nothing but silence. And so I waited and then I came in and I said, Is there anything I can help you with? And she looked at me and she just had these huge tears in her eyes per kittel and she looked at the at the music and she looked down to her hands and she said, Mom, I can't find Middle C and we put her hands on middle C You put her fingers on the right spaces and then she looked up and she said, And where is it on the book? And she lost totally lost overnight. How to read music. We spent six weeks starting back at the very beginning and worked her all the way back, and that taught me a lot about how sometimes we have to go back and start again. True. And that may be what's happening here. So we need
spk_0: 1:21:46
right to things regression to old ways of coping because of the influx of anxiety and frustration and not knowing what's going on and be what you just mentioned. A zwelling starting from the beginning and building it up again. It's almost like teaching the brain that the skill again. Because again, well, we've heard about sensory issues in attention. Distractibility. So even the strength to recall those coping skills, you know, ah, could be effective as well and blunted when when you're have all this other stuff going on. Ah, good insight. Here we go. Here's another one. Ah! Ah! Um, Right here. Right here. Okay. My 16 year old was diagnosed by an occupational therapist with hypervigilance Garrido You Ah, my 16 year old was diagnosed by an O. T. With hypervigilance hearing, and she herself is very loud. Is there a connection? Is there a way to modify her loudness? So, you know, I brings you back to an old Will Ferrell skit on Saturday. Live voice a modulation right were loud and we're proud. I hear this often, folks on the spectrum are loud, you know? Is there a correlation? What's the or what is the sensory correlation to?
spk_1: 1:23:07
Well, of course, there's There is a correlation. Of course. Um, she's bang on our he's bang on. She she's bang on. There is, um and, um, and again with the 16 year old, depending on their, um, their maturity and whether their 16 year old, um, working with signals may help, um, finding there, uh, normal speaking. What? What is a normal speaking voice And, um, and really feeding into that and giving lots of positives around using that she may need a speech language pathologist to help with it.
spk_0: 1:24:00
That's excellent. Could it be is there could ever be that they couldn't hear themselves.
spk_1: 1:24:08
You think that the first thing they did was test hearing
spk_0: 1:24:11
Okay. Oh, yeah, this could be She was diagnosed his hypervigilant hearing, and she's very
spk_1: 1:24:20
Yeah, well, there may be a hearing loss, Okay. She may have to be hypervigilant so she can hear.
spk_0: 1:24:28
Okay, Becky, I know backing from Utah. Says, what would you consider good sensory breaks at school for a very active sensory seeker? Also, how often would you recommend those breaks during the day three. How do you explain to a teacher that these breaks Ah ah, are necessary,
spk_1: 1:24:48
huh? Oh, dear. Well, if you have a report, you take it to the teacher. Right? Um, if you have a report and there's a no t in this system in the education system, you take the report to the OT and esque Theo t to come in. Um, personally, that's what I found was the best way of doing it personally. Unfortunately, I've found that Ah, as a parent, I'm not listened to, whereas a za professional coming into the school I am. So I've handed the reports over to the professionals working in the system to bring to the teachers, bring to the principal, and that's always worked better.
spk_0: 1:25:37
Take yourself into the equation when they think you're that's a problem, right? That's right. They do
spk_1: 1:25:42
exactly. Yeah. So, um, if there's a report, take that in. If there isn't a report, there's often some very good sites in different school systems around. There are some good sites around F A, S T and, um, and typical challenges. So I would print those off and take the man.
spk_0: 1:26:09
That's that's excellent. And what is a good sensory break for an active for a seeker? If if you have a seeker What? Is that what you're talking about? With the books to the principal Heavy were
spk_1: 1:26:21
the books heavy work, even chair sit ups where they put their fingers under the chair under the seat and push up his heart of heart is they can't And hold it up there.
spk_0: 1:26:33
Drill if their bum. Yeah, I'm trying to read up.
spk_1: 1:26:36
Yeah. Interact. Oh, yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah, and just counting to five, you know, or counting to 10 while they do that a couple of times. Um, it may be that, um, I would love to see teachers implementing more movement into their everyday classes. So there's some great examples. For example, um, what's eight by eight? The person who comes up with the answer. The teacher tosses a small basketball that it's a basketball hoop in the corner of the classroom and the person tosses the ball. Yeah, right. Ah, quick physical activity that can be incorporated, their teaching geography. The class stands at the back, and the teacher says, who confined BUCA via. And Johnny raises his hand and he gets to rush up to the teacher, get a sticker and put it in Book of India
spk_0: 1:27:39
Found nice, that is, that is really good. Ah,
spk_1: 1:27:42
there's actually whole classrooms that that are organized with movement. Everything implement includes movement there, lots of brain break type activities that teachers, uh, often no and could implement in their classrooms.
spk_0: 1:28:01
And not just for folks on the spectrum who would benefit all all kids? Yes, and just incomes everyone. And so we're not excluding and singling out.
spk_1: 1:28:11
Yes, there was a classroom, a special classroom in Saskatoon where the teacher got think that they were stationary bikes and, um, and she got the kids on stationary bikes for 20 minutes before they did math every day. And their math went up by grades and grades. Just doing that because they could focus that much better after physical activity.
spk_0: 1:28:38
Ah, this is Jeanette, she says. What's your opinion on sensory integration therapy? Are there other more effective methods?
spk_1: 1:28:48
If you have a child with sensory integration problems and you have access is to sensory integration therapy, you should go for it. So here it is,
spk_0: 1:29:02
right? If the therapy is named after the condition. It's probably a good fit.
spk_1: 1:29:07
Yeah, you need to make sure that the person is doing it is well qualified. And those were doing Yeah, but friends of mine, whose kids have gone for sensory integration therapy have the results have been amazing.
spk_0: 1:29:23
That's excellent. Ah, does primitive reflex integration play a role in kids with F A S T?
spk_1: 1:29:31
Yes, it can.
spk_0: 1:29:34
What's primitive reflects integration.
spk_1: 1:29:36
So we're all born with primitive reflexes, so that that, um, that change. So your your your baby, um, would have gone through a symmetrical tonic reflex where there, uh, right. And where one arm is out and the other arm is down in the the are head points in the direction. And, um, and within a few months that that's disappeared. So we have a whole series of primitive reflexes that that disappear and, ah, in normal development. And if they don't, that's problem. It's a problem for bells coordination. It's a problem for protective. Um, you're being able to protect yourself. So when you when you're, um, Foster child didn't put or your sister didn't put her arms out when she was coming off your back, that that's a primitive reflex problem
spk_0: 1:30:44
that's I'll never forget that day because she was so angry with me. And I was flabbergasted. Why didn't Why didn't you just put your hands up? And she's learned? Yeah, I didn't think of it.
spk_1: 1:30:56
Yeah, that she has to think about it is is the thing. It should be a reflexive action.
spk_0: 1:31:03
How do you address severe nose picking? Eating to the point of nosebleeds.
spk_1: 1:31:12
Speared? Where's the eating?
spk_0: 1:31:15
Eating the burger. Oh, like picking their nose and eating it like go into town. So what is the point where your nose is bleeding?
spk_1: 1:31:26
So it's you've got a sensory issue there. Um um the trying to figure out how to word this, um so smell And, um and the nose and and the nerves attached to their to the brain are some of the parts of the early primitive sensory system. And they tell us a lot about what's going on Is this child is probably trying to integrate, um, and and regulate by doing that So again, I would be looking at an assessment in a sensory program.
spk_0: 1:32:11
It's just like a good neuroscience evaluation for the brain. Yes. Is Justus important for a no t for their sensory system and having them as fluid documents. As you said. Part of the success for your daughter was having the those assessments and taking them along with her during the journey to help inform those who might not be. FAA is being
spk_1: 1:32:33
yes, now it is. There are there are professionals who don't right good functional reports. That's true that you can use. So if I were having an assessment and I got a report that I didn't think I could use, I would go back to that specialists and say I really need this to be one that a teacher can follow. Can you reward the recommendations? Or I need it to be one that I can follow its apparent and that I can understand.
spk_0: 1:33:12
Yeah, that's true because I talked to a lot of parents. They get assessments, it's Ah, it's a giant stack of papers. They don't know what.
spk_1: 1:33:19
Yes, so you have to hold the professional accountable, and that's not easy. But you in the end, your Children have you. Yeah, you're their advocate, you have, and you have to be able to say this doesn't work for me. I need. This is what I need. This is a great report, but this is what I need.
spk_0: 1:33:46
Agreed. And that's what we do in our not toe plugged the online course. But that's what we do is prepare and instill confidence in the caregiver because they're the expert on their kid. Nobody knows absolutely way better than they dio s. So we give them the tools that they need to be able to approach professionals alike and and be taken more serious and with understanding of the disability and in in a big smile and a stack of cookies doesn't hurt either. Right?
spk_1: 1:34:14
That's right. That's right,
spk_0: 1:34:16
You know, you taking a lot of time. It's been amazing. Like, what's you've done a lot. What's what's next Like, would it? You know, we're obviously trying to get through this piece. Um, But you you do do work with the can of fasd board, right? Yes. And what do you do? Like what? What is your role on the board? What do you do?
spk_1: 1:34:38
Well, I'm secretary of the board, which is not a riel like That's not an onerous task. Um, I'm part of the group that recruits new board members. So we have a committee that does that. Um, I'm the parent, the parent on the board. Um, we have, um, Family and Family Advisory Committee, which has incredible parents on it. And, um and they're they're from the provinces and territories that that are part of the network. And, um and they have their chair co chairs, come to our meetings and give us lots of great feedback and understanding. But when it comes to voting, I met in terms of a parent. So I bring that strong perspective to the board. I'm a huge believer in research, so that's Ah, but research that will help us as parents along the journey that will help our Children along their life journey. So that's what I see is my role. Um, I'm I also come on to, um, some research teams on in an advisory capacity. So right now I'm working with Dr Mella on a research grant proposal. Um, that I'm really, uh
spk_0: 1:36:07
is this seat in Burbank feels the CBD. Yes, OK, that's OK. You could talk about it because I'm going to use my powers to get that survey to those individuals so you could really I'm on board. Oh, OK. Anything you guys asked me, You know, that's that's done because we just talked about the medication algorithm Ah, which you could find on her website. And we talked about one of my parents in our group was bringing up CBD. And so that's what he said. It sparked his interest to try and, you know, find this is ah in emerging field with that in the difference between THC and CBD, and you know it, uh, we could get under a whole other thing about, you know, THC effecting the sensory system. And but will you come back because, well, you come back and do another show because we could just There's so many rabbit holes.
spk_1: 1:37:04
Sure you are operated that
spk_0: 1:37:08
that's what nobody will be there. And then you just flush my calls right now, and I didn't Yeah, I didn't see it. Ah, honestly, last last question. You've been doing this for so long in my group. And when I am doing trainings and seeing parents, um, I get the 50 yard stare. Ah, you know the see right through you that they're overwhelmed. No hope in your soothing voice. What would What would you say? Or what would you say to Lisa when you first started? And world, what would you say that
spk_1: 1:37:44
Oh, boy. Well, when I when my kids were placed my arms I thought love conquers all. Love goes a long, long way But there are other things that happened. Um, and, uh and so I would have put on by open to learning hat a lot earlier. Um, I think that's probably one of my big regrets. Huge is taking care of yourself. You can't take care of your kids if you're you're not in good shape. Um, taking advantage of every learning opportunity, um is something huge and and still is huge. I you know, I continue to learn and learn and learn and understand more and so that that's huge, giving myself opportunities to see joy, opportunities to see the what the good things that were happening with my kids. And, um, and to of course, recognize that there's lots of hardship. Um, recognizing that if I hadn't been here with my kids as much as I could, and much as I could be, it's really challenging to do so with my son. But with my daughter I can with my grandchildren. Um, is that true understanding of you can function without a port of call? Um, where were the direction? Changes all the time. And we have to have that flexibility and quickness to be able to change with the times and with our Children. And, um, just being open, toe it all bracing it all is thistles. The life we're living, we're We are on our own stage.
spk_0: 1:39:53
Well, well said, Ah, Lisa. Brownstone. You have not only been a champion of mine, but also a champion in the f A s t community. Thank you so much for for coming on and joining me today.
spk_1: 1:40:06
Thanks for having me. See you next time.
spk_0: 1:40:08
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, really? You're awesome. Isn't that amazing? Honest to gosh, I feel like I'm sitting under the tree of knowledge and just drinking it in. Ah, so much perspective s so much life experience, so much professional experience in such a sweet like person to talk to have had many chats with her. In fact, um, you know, we're when I was living in Southern Ontario and she was in southern Ontario, I would go say what's up and go hang out with her. Um, there's nothing better than somebody who is approachable and has time for you. And so I try and emulate that because she's amazing. Like I'm only one. I'm only going to touch on a few things because she said so many in the podcast is a bit long. So if you're still with me, you win. You are excellent in my book. I frickin love you. Thank you so much. You know what I like? I like what she talks about. The importance of early intervention, intervention. I like how I like how she talks about the importance of early intervention, how you could see how when her son was not diagnosed properly. Oh, and identified an early age like what the outcomes could have been, what track he was on. But the other big messages. If if there wasn't early intervention because her daughter had early intervention and continued intervention with ah, better, uh, outcome it, you know, in the short term, for sure, because it appears that he's doing well as well, which is so good to hear. Ah, but that's the point. Just because there might not have been early intervention in your kiddos life doesn't mean the outcome is going to be sour. Ah, he didn't. But they got things on track and he is using his strengths now to maintain employment, which is excellent. I It just not blows me away, not baffles me. It just intrigues me to the core of my being. How you know he was listening. But he's just not looking. And so where did we get this idea that in order to listen, you had to look at us in these values? I know it comes from generations before. Ah, but he's He was straight up listening all that time. And when he's accommodated and able to use the strengths he's got, he's maintaining employment. I just think that's with the with. The work is all about how to accommodate how to help them function at their at their best, because oh, my gosh, there. They're amazing folks, right? She talks about regression, which was huge. Are you seeing regression in your guys? I'm hearing about it in our free closed ah Facebook group facebook dot com slash groups slash f a S t. Forever. And I like what she talked about in terms of regression. When you have those anchors ripped out, think about maybe yourself to Are you answering your kids differently? Are you gone back to maybe ah, reacting and engaging, which is leading to raging because you've had anchors ripped out as well? That's that was a good ah ha moment for me. And, of course, the difference between ah, tantrum and a meltdown. They talked about the eight senses, introspective a sense. Now you know about the five outside the two inside vestibular appropriate deception. When you're thinking about all that, the brain and body has to juggle appear, um, to appear together and to navigate toe, you know, physically and mentally emotionally navigate ah, life and what they have stacked against them. Sometimes they are amazing to be able to get through Ah, and do what they can dio. I don't know if I could I don't have the strength like they dio what we could help them weaken. It doesn't have to be that tough for either the caregiver or the individual on the spectrum. We shouldn't be putting these extra barriers in front of them to be successful, but we're not there yet and for Ah ah, lot of folks still making that transition from that. The behaviors air actually symptoms that's a hard transition to make is that means giving up a lot of what you thought about a lot of things and how things worked and and making that transition to that that's not on purpose. They're not being a jerk to you on purpose. I think it's it's really tough, especially when you're dealing with a lot of things on your plate by I digress, it is stuff. But hopefully now you could get your kid, um, towards an occupational therapy assessment. Or, if you don't have access, you could do it yourself. You could check out our show notes at Teoh. I know I'm plugging it, but I'm trying to give you different ways to see it. If you go Teoh fst success dot com slash podcast It's like the blawg and hers would be the 1st 1 And in those show notes I'm going to put the books and the resources that she had offered. If you know of any awesome resources or if you have any questions, comments, concerns, you can email me a Jeff at F A s d forever dot com Loving doing this and you're and I hope your loving listening to it. Ah, yeah. So just leave me some feedback. Drop me a line. Tell me what's up. I hope you're doing well and we will be back next week with the other parent or a professional or individual on the spectrum. Who knows where we go, But we're going to do it together. So until next week, I love you very much and I hope you have amazing week. Maintain your sanity. We'll see you soon.