Racism, Greed, and the Good Life with Malcolm Foley, PhD

S10 E5—Where does racism come from? Many of us assume it's rooted in hatred or fear, but what if it’s actually rooted in greed? As we approach Juneteenth, a day that commemorates freedom while reminding us of the work still before us, pastor and historian Malcolm Foley, PhD, joins Amy Julia Becker to talk about his book The Anti-Greed Gospel. He traces the roots of racism to economic exploitation and invites the church to respond with solidarity, truth-telling, and tangible love.

00:00 Introduction to the Link Between Greed and Racism
10:56 Ida B. Wells and the Power of Economic Appeals
18:11 The Cycle of Exploitation and Status
22:54 Creative Resistance to Exploitation, Violence, and Lies
29:05 Economic Solidarity in Contemporary Church
35:23 Examples of Creative Anti-Violence in Action

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

• The Anti-Greed Gospel: Why the Love of Money Is the Root of Racism and How the Church Can Create a New Way Forward by Malcolm Foley
• Book of Revelation
• Matthew 6:24
• Acts 2 and 4
• Philippians 2

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WATCH this conversation on YouTube: Amy Julia Becker on YouTube

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ABOUT OUR GUEST:

Malcolm Foley (PhD, Baylor University) is a pastor, historian, and speaker who serves as special adviser to the president for equity and campus engagement at Baylor University. He has written for Christianity Today, The Anxious Bench, and Mere Orthodoxy. Foley copastors Mosaic Waco, a multicultural church in Waco, Texas, where he lives with his wife, Desiree.

Insta & threads: @revdocmalc

@BrazosPress

Connect with me:

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• Website

Thanks for listening! 

Transcript

Note: This transcript is autogenerated and does contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.

Amy Julia Becker (00:05)
Where does racism come from? Many of us assume it comes from hatred or fear, but what if it actually comes from economic self-interest, otherwise known as greed? Today I'm talking with Malcolm Foley, author of the Anti-Greed Gospel. We're talking about the false assumptions that many people have about the roots of racism. We're considering how greed and pride are the real forces at work, and we're discussing helpful examples of how we could change this narrative.

And put love into action. I'm Amy Julia Becker, and this is Reimagining the Good Life, a podcast about challenging the assumptions about what makes life good, proclaiming the inherent belovedness of every human being, and envisioning a world of belonging where everyone matters. Malcolm Foley is a pastor, historian, and speaker who serves as special advisor to the president for equity and campus engagement at Baylor University.

He has written for Christianity Today, The Anxious Bench and Mere Orthodoxy. He is the author, as I mentioned before, of the Anti-Greed Gospel: Why the Love of Money is the Root of Racism and How the Church Can Create a New Way Forward. Foley co-pastors Mosaic Waco, a multicultural church in Waco, Texas, where he lives with his wife Desiree. And here is my conversation with Malcolm Foley. Well, I am delighted to be sitting here with Dr. Malcolm Foley. Doctor Foley, thank you for being here with me today.

Malcolm Foley (01:30)
It's good to be here with you.

Amy Julia Becker (01:32)
so as I was telling you before I even started recording, I read your book not knowing whether I was gonna have another season of this podcast. So I didn't read it with this ⁓ conversation in mind, but it's delightful to get to talk to you. And I just want to read the full title of your book because it says a lot. It's called The Anti-Greed Gospel: Why the Love of Money is the root of racism and how the church can create a new way forward.

So we're gonna talk about as much as we can of your argument, although there's certainly gonna be more left on the table. So hopefully people will pick up the book. But I thought maybe we could start just by way of introduction to you and your ⁓ your own, you know, situation and experience. how did you come to write this book? 'Cause I know you w weren't exactly hoping for it.

Malcolm Foley (02:20)
No, no, I didn't want to write at all. ⁓ so I when I when I did my MDiv ⁓ at Yale at Yale Divinity School, I was I was I was focused almost exclusively on the early church and the medieval church. And I specifically did not want to spend any time with race because I was like, I don't wanna I didn't wanna be the black guy who talks about race all the time. ⁓ and so then I I I came to start my PhD and was doing work on first it was Calvin.

Then it was the Puritans and then and then after and then and then I took a class on Christianity after the Civil War. And one of the questions that bothered me, one of the questions that bothered me the most was, ⁓ hey, black specifically black men are being set on fire across the South. What's the church doing and saying about that? So I would look for books, ⁓ books and articles about it, and I couldn't find I couldn't find what I wanted. And so I was like, I guess this is guess this is what my dissertation is gonna be. ⁓ and so I essentially I moved from

wanting to be a scholar of the Greek Church Fathers to becoming a scholar of Christianity and racial violence. ⁓ which I mean, you know, that's a little bit of a leap, I guess, but Yeah. ⁓ but ⁓ but after after finishing that ⁓ I st and and also in co-pastoring the church that I co-pastor, I was I was beginning to ask the questions, okay.

In thinking about this violence, why why, why that violence, and why for so long? And why does this and why does this keep happening? ⁓ and ⁓ and I re-encountered some sources from particularly the Black Radical tradition, ⁓ and and was reminded of what was largely a scholarly conversation about the link between race and greed. It's a long time, long standing scholarly conversation.

And as I talked to people about it, I was like, this has in no way kind of trickled down to people, to people, whether, whether, whether in the pews or in the or in the public more broadly. And so I was thinking, okay, well, ⁓ then this is an opportunity to then share this paradigm, to kind of share this paradigm broadly. ⁓ but not only to share this paradigm broadly, but also to draw, ⁓ to kind of draw anti racist discourse in a in a

in a sense a broader way. So beyond the personal and even in a sense beyond the systemic, ⁓ theologically I also draw in the language of the demonic as well. ⁓ and so it's it's a ⁓ it's similar to what it's similar to what I think John does with the book of Revelation where it's written to these seven churches and they're all suffering under under persecution.

By the Roman Empire and the images that are given in the book of Revelation are the images of these like of these broader demonic powers that are actually operating that are actually operating in the background. ⁓ I wanna do something ⁓ I I I wanna kind of do something similar with with race, but also but also but also to then equip people to be able to ⁓ actually resist that evil in a in a helpful and material and material way.

Amy Julia Becker (05:30)
Yeah. So on some level you're also you're writing to bring a scholarly conversation into a more, you know, on the ground vernacular people, lay people conversation. But you're also on some level writing against a different perception of what racism especially specifically within churches, both what racism emerges out of and what to do about it. So can you give us the kind of

Here's the cor here's what I'm trying to correct or at least ⁓ at least poke some holes at critique. Sure.

Malcolm Foley (06:02)
Yeah, so most most for most of us our understanding of race and racism, ⁓ those conversations are either conversations about ignorance, identity or hate. and if the and if the conversation's about ignorance, then the primary solution is gonna be education. If the if the if the conversation is about identity, then the then the answer is just well find your identity and other things. ⁓ if the answer is hate, specifically understand understood emotionally, ⁓ then the answer is gonna be well build

Build different relationships. Love obviously. Why would you hate anybody because of the color of their skin? Like that doesn't make sense. ⁓ and so and and one of the things that I want to press is that actually historically ⁓ and ethically, it that those those those those things follow those things follow down downstream. When you follow when you follow it all the way, all the way up to the source, what you find is that the origin of the category of race is greed.

It's the i it's these issues of political economy, the way that we mobilize power and the way that we mobilize money. ⁓ and so if that's then if that's then the issue, then if we're going to address race and racism, we've we've got to address it at that at that level. ⁓ and kind of narrated with the language of of vice, it's gr greed is the issue. ⁓ and so and so if we wanna actually build anti racist communities, we have to build anti-greed, anti-greed communities. And th and that is something that we

don't want to do. ⁓ it's it's something that implicates something that implicates all of us. ⁓ and requires ⁓ you know and requires kind of acts of material acts of solidarity that ⁓ that I think also require sacrifice of all of us as well.

Amy Julia Becker (07:45)
Why is it that we don't want to hear it? And maybe that's obvious, but I still feel like it's worth spelling out.

Malcolm Foley (07:52)
Yeah.

⁓ I mean we don't want to talk about we don't want to talk about money at all. ⁓ it's one I I mean it's one of the it's it's just one of the taboo ⁓ topics of conversation. If you talk about like sex, money and politics, like nobody wants to no, leave that all that. All that stuff is private. ⁓ and and it is and and one of the one of the things, especially as I see the link between economic exploitation and violence. ⁓ no, it's not.

It's not private. ⁓ in many ways, we live in an economy that is profoundly violent. ⁓ one of the ⁓ one of the points I press in the second half of the book when I think about kind of three, three modes of application and I and I and I want us to build communities of of creative anti-violence. I I want us to I want us to think of violence as kind of anything that keeps folks from the resources that they need to be able to live.

is violence. So keeping s keeping keeping folks from food, from shelter, from from all these things that we need to survive, those are those are ultimately violent. Those are ultimately violent things. ⁓ and if we're called to love one another, ⁓ and and but what what what love is is not just me feeling a particular way about you, but it's me expressing a material commitment to your well being. Yeah. ⁓ and that and that's something that I get, that's something that I get directly from directly from scripture, the way that the New Testament

frames love is always in these material ways. Even when the New Testament says that this this is in 1 John 3 16, that this is how we know what love is that Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. Yeah. That's also a that that that's also a material statement. Like that's not a spiritual thing that Jesus did for us. Like it's a very, very material thing. ⁓ that includes the very material act of the Son of God taking on flesh. But he doesn't just take on flesh. He actually lives a human life and dies a human death. Yeah.

And those are and those are profoundly material things, which then leads John to then say in the next verse, if any of you has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need and has no pity on them, how can you say that the love of God is in you? ⁓ Right. So

Amy Julia Becker (10:01)
Yeah, I am ⁓ fascinated by I there are two things I just wrote down. one being just that idea of the material commitment to your well being and the ways in which I think ⁓ the church has and we like to spiritualize all sorts of things ⁓ rather than to integrate the material and the spiritual. 'Cause it's not to say that there's not a spiritual component to what we're talking about. It's simply to say that that

if that's not being expressed materially, then we are simply talking in like sentimental terms with this word love put on it. And we're not actually doing ⁓ the love that is both ⁓ modeled for us, like demonstrated in the life and the death ⁓ of Jesus and the incarnation. ⁓ but we're also, yeah, not like living that out ⁓ yeah, as we're as we're called to.

This I think maybe this this is a quotation from Ida B. Wells, and I'll ask you to just ⁓ remind listeners of who she was. But I also want to talk about this quotation you have from her. She wrote the appeal to the white man's pocket has ever been more effectual than all the appeals ever made to his conscience. I'd love for you to remind us. Yeah, who who is Wells? And then also, what did she understand about the power of the pocket ⁓ within these racial divisions?

Malcolm Foley (11:27)
she is the single most important person in the history of anti lynching activism. ⁓ and so ⁓ in in eighteen ninety two, so up until eighteen ninety two, she's she, along with much of the general public, is under the assumption that ⁓ these lynchings that have been happening espe at at at this point for the last kind of five to ten years, ⁓ that they happen because black men sexually assault white white women.

that was the narrative that was pressed kind of throughout the South. And it was a and it was a way to ⁓ in many ways justify this just brutal violence being visited upon, particularly black men. And ⁓ and she's she's living in Memphis at the time and she's and she's away, and she finds out that one of her friends and two of his two of his associates were had had just been lynched, had just been taken, basically taken, taken out into a field and shot. And

And she was like, well, I don't think they sexually assaulted anybody. Like that seems weird. Right. So she came so so she came back and and investigated and found that ⁓ it that it actually had stemmed from this guy had owned a had owned a grocery store and there was a white-owned grocery store kind of down the street, and there was a dispute between the two of them that essentially that that essentially became violent and the and and and a mob, essentially a mob, ⁓ a mob killed these, killed these three men. And she

And she basically thought, well, if this happened here, I wonder, I wonder what's going on with these other with these other lynching incidents. And ⁓ and she and that and that begins that begins essentially a a national and international campaign of of writing of writing and speaking, where she exposes this phenomenon as not ⁓ as not a not an act of popular justice, but but as a mode of social control that that that

That lynching is used specifically to keep, as she'll say, to keep the Negro in his place. ⁓ that once once folks step out of line economically and socially, lynching is then used as a tool to kind of to to bring them bring them bring them back in line. that what and and throughout kind of the corpus of her writing and speaking, you find basically every example of anti-lynching activism that you could think of, whether you think about self-defense.

or voting for particular individuals or ⁓ or emigration. So just telling folks, hey, if there's a bit of lynching in your town, just leave. And and the reason why she says that is she says that ⁓ when when w the much of the economy of the places that you find yourself in depend on African American labor. And if labor leaves, capital will leave with it. And so and so that so that that that that

That awareness was something that she brought that she brought to all that she brought to all of her work. ⁓ but with the with the appeals to the pocket and the app and the appeals to the concepts. I mean, she was just she was just naming something that ⁓ just the way that just what works. So so she was like, I can I can say till I'm blue in the face what you're doing is wrong. But until it but but but but until it actually

does not materially benefit you to do it, you won't stop doing it. ⁓ and that's and that's in many ways true. I mean, unfortunately, ⁓ it's true of it's true of many it's true of many of us. Sometimes our our repentance doesn't actually take place until we until we actually become aware of the ways that it harms us. ⁓ which is a which is a shame. I would I would love it to be a case that trust to repent for things because they're wrong.

Amy Julia Becker (15:16)
Well, so that's right. I have two questions. The first is just like, are moral arguments about racism ineffective? Like is that just like not gonna actually make a difference? That's my first question. Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Foley (15:27)
⁓

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, well, I think ⁓ I mean I think historically they don't they I mean I mean I mean I I think historically they don't they don't they don't work as well because because the particular moral route is not pressed. So for so for so for so so so for so for example ⁓

Even abolitionists were very clear about ⁓ racialized child slavery being rooted in avarice, ⁓ in greed. ⁓ but you know, I also I I think that and this and this I go back to I go back to Jesus with this because this cause this book is also, in a sense, an exegesis of of of when Jesus says that you can't serve two masters. You'll either love one and hate the other or be devoted to one and despise the other. You can't serve both God.

And mammon, the Aramaic word for money or riches. And and like, and I the way I see it is that we are we're caught in a cause we're caught we're we're caught in a cosmic battle for our souls. And that battle is fought between God and money. Yeah. And so, and and in many ways, especially in our nation's history, mammon has placed a veil over our eyes, so we don't even see the fact that so many of our decisions are made in service of it. and

And so so one of the other goals of the book was to begin to peel that veil back so that people would see that that that while it is a book about race, it's also a book about kind of much more because I think I I because at the at the core, kind of our our our conversations about race and racism are are are examples of a proxy battle of this of this broader cosmic war. So I think ⁓ I I mean, you know, I think there's a sense in which moral arguments about racism

Can work, but but they've got to get at the actual root. ⁓ because we're already at a because we're already in a situation where most people don't think they're racist. So and and and and and so like the like it there's and and and one of the things that I that that I want to press is that, well, we're not just talking about you, like you feeling a particular way about another person. We're talking about questions of political economy. We're talking about how.

how the decisions that we make materially harm folks folks folks in particular groups because it's a result of these of this long sequence of not only decisions but also kind of systems that have been formed in particular ways. So

Amy Julia Becker (18:11)
So okay, so that was my first question. It's just like, are the moral arguments, you know, ineffective. But then my second question is, okay, I know that ⁓ I've at least read often that historically and even today, if poor white people would simply align themselves politically with poor black people, they would protect their own economic interests and they would actually have better material conditions.

And, you know, there would presumably be some measure of like this racial divide being overcome, right? So ⁓ we if we are voting along racial lines rather than like economic interest lines. Yeah. ⁓ and of you know, white people essentially in some categories at least are said to be voting against their economic interests, like how does greed factor into that? Like I I wanna just hear you think about that 'cause I was like, I'm following this argument. I agree with it in so many ways. And how does this

How does this play in?

Malcolm Foley (19:06)
Well, one thing is that and it's it's it's fascinating just because at root race is a lie. and and that's really important for us to be on the same page about. But it's also really important that we understand the purpose, the purpose of the the purpose of the lie. ⁓ the and and the purpose of the lie is to continue to economically exploit votes. And so and so ⁓ and so with that ⁓ people

can and have been for a very long time, kind of captive. They've they've become captive to the lie that this category, especially a category of identity, ⁓ that it's useful, that it gives you a certain, that it gives you at least a certain kind of capital. If not economic capital, at least some kind of power. That if that if if I were to be rid of it, I would lose that. So so I think about ⁓ and and WB Du Bois

deals with this when he discusses what he calls ⁓ the wages the wages of ⁓ of whiteness. It it it it allows it allows specifically in many ways poor white folks to look at poor black folks and say, well, at least I'm better at least I'm better off than than than you. When you're not materially, but but that but that also but that also distracts, but that also distracts you from who's actually exploiting both of you. ⁓ and that

And and and it continues and the and the narratives continue to be pressed so that you don't look up and see who's actually making money off of both of you. and if you and if if you were to gather with folks and see that web of exploitation, then it would refocus your information it it would refocus your attention in ways that would become a threat to those to those broader systems. So

Amy Julia Becker (21:03)
I'm wondering too about like the idea. I've never I I don't know if this is right or not. ⁓ but w we can be greedy for money, but I wonder how we also are like greedy for status. Because I do think like scripturally, Jesus talks so much about breaking down these status ⁓ signals that say this group is more better than this group or this type of person is better than this type of person. And

There seems to be something operating and in how you just described that as well, like ⁓ that there is a sense of, you know, anything that is racialized ⁓ in terms of some people being up and others down, right? Like is inherently devaluing one group of people, and so and denigrating their humanity and refusing to see a sense of like

common humanity. As you said, like race is a lie at its root. Yeah. ⁓ and so I wonder if that's where there's kind of an interplay between and at one point in the book you say that both pride and greed are at work here. Right. And I think the pride piece maybe is what relates to that idea of ⁓ of status being operative. ⁓ so I want to turn us from kind of diagnosing the problem, even though there's much more we could say, right? And

you've already spoken to how the church has kind of ⁓ misdiagnosed the ⁓ cause of racism in our society, which of course also leads to misdiagnosis of solutions. And so, you know, we can be ⁓ building relationships all we want, and that still won't again affect the material reality, which is to say the welfare. I mean, just that idea of us being brothers and sisters who are

meant to care for one another and that we don't simply do that by saying, let's be friends and I'll pray for you. ⁓ so let's talk about the idea ⁓ of creative anti-violence of ⁓ you I mean you offer a lot of kind of possibilities and so I'd love to just hear like what are ⁓ some of the ways that we can actually shape a different imagination for a ⁓

I mean I I don't really love the word solution to the problem of racism, but ⁓ a different way of being in the world, especially as the church.

Malcolm Foley (23:31)
Yeah. ⁓ so the way I frame the way I frame the problem is is threefold that you've got this ⁓ what I call the the demonic cycle of the the demonic cycle of exploitation, ⁓ which is ⁓ a cycle of exploitation, violence and lies. ⁓ like that's the that's our big that's our big issue. ⁓ and so if that's our if that's our big issue, then then the remedy is threefold as well.

So against that exploitation, we build communities of of of economic solidarity, of deep economic solidarity. ⁓ against that against that violence, we build we build communities of creative anti-violence. And against those lies, we build communities of prophetic truth telling. ⁓ and each of those, ⁓ each of those are important, I think, to any community. ⁓ and they ought to be understood as basic.

To Christian communities. So, like, so to Christians that I'm talking to, like, none of this ought to be surprising at all. Because all of this comes at the root of who Christian communities are actually supposed to be. And just like at a basic level. ⁓ to the economic solidarity point, this is this is what the church in Acts two and Acts 4 was about. We're told that God's grace was so powerfully at work among them that there were no needy people in their midst. And it wasn't because they kicked the needy out, it was because they it was because this was a community that recognized

anyone had need, well the Lord has only given us what we have in order to share w what we have with those with those who need it. ⁓ that's something that runs, like I said, that's something that runs through runs through the whole net the whole New Testament. With the creative anti violence point, ⁓ it's it's not just a refusal to engage in violence because there's no way for me to l but because there's love love of my neighbor can mean a number of things. killing them is not one of those things. ⁓ and so

And but it but it's not just a refusal to engage in violence, it's also the commitment to resit to to to resist violence when I see my brother or sister or or neighbor undergoing it. And not just my brother or sister, but even my enemy. ⁓ because I'm called to love I'm called to love my enemy. I I'm called to love my enemy as well. And so like that's that's another way that we undercut that we undercut that that cycle. But then to the prophetic truth telling point, ⁓

we're we're we're we're reminded that race is a lie. The the the the the truth that combats that is the fact that every human being I come into contact with is a unique, unrepeatable icon of God. And so what that means is that I like I have a responsibil like that I have a responsibility. Not only do I have a responsibility to you, but there's also this understanding that I I also have something I need to learn.

From you. Like there's a way that I need there's a way that I need you in order to go into Christlieness. ⁓ the and and and that and and when that becomes the fundamental orientation of of all of our human interactions, stereotyping is really, really easy. It's why we do it. It's just, it's just really easy to put people in categories and then to be able to either dismiss or laud them accordingly. It just takes more work to see people in the way that God has actually created them to be.

But that's the way that we're called to treat one another. And so yeah, sure it's gonna be more work, but that's what we gotta that's what we gotta do. Because because often taking those shortcuts leads to us killing and degrading one another. ⁓ and that and that can't be that that just can't be on the table for us.

Amy Julia Becker (27:10)
Well, and I think what tell me if I'm wrong, I think what you're also saying is it can lead to these acts of commission in which we kill and degrade one another, right? Where we going back in our history, like literally are enslaving people or we literally are burning people alive, right? Those are Yeah. ⁓ the majority of Christians, I would think, in the American church today would say, Never have I ever and never will I, right?

Of course. and so that's what brings us to at the same idea, this idea of ⁓ what you were saying before about violence being that which we are withholding from someone else in terms of their material well being. And we're not talking about everyone having, you know, ⁓ their own big house and feeds a car. We're talking about food and health care and you know, ⁓ support in their lives. And so it seems to me that part of what you're saying is

⁓ yeah, it's not loving your neighbor is an active love. It is not simply a passive, ⁓ yeah, I don't do those bad things. And I think about the Good Samaritan. ⁓ a friend of mine recently pointed out not only does the Good Samaritan go like above and beyond in terms of caring in the moment to the material for the material well being of this enemy ⁓ on the side of the road, but actually circles back and goes like goes back again to make sure

That you're actually and and I just hadn't ever really thought that like I'm like that is like you've so Jesus is painting such a picture of like and now do like do more. Keep going. I love

Malcolm Foley (28:48)
Love. ⁓

Amy Julia Becker (28:51)
I mean, it's like it's a big deal. So I wonder if we could just talk through those three things in terms of whether you've seen them in action in our contemporary moment. ⁓ or maybe the inverse. I mean, it you know, but like what does economic solidarity we again you mentioned Acts two, we kind of know what it looked like two thousand years ago. What might that look like in the church today?

Malcolm Foley (29:19)
So ⁓ first it requires two things. It requires it requires the building of an ethos that undermines ⁓ neoliberal capitalism as a whole, which is to say it we we're building a people who are willing to share and who are willing to ask for help. It's it's difficult it's difficult to share because we're told that everything that we have is ours. ⁓ and so I get to do whatever I want with it, especially my money.

So ⁓ like it's my money. It's it's mine. ⁓ and what and what? But there but there has to be but there has to be ⁓ a reframing of that for us that comes from ⁓ really the incarnation. So so so I think I continually think back to Philippians two and the framing and and and and when and when Paul says that we're to have this mind which is ours in Christ Jesus, who

Being in the form of God did not see equality with God as a thing to be selfishly held on to, but instead emptied himself, taking on the form of a servant, being found in human likeness. And and and I think it's important that we understand that text to say, ⁓ 'cause some translations say, though he was in the form of God, did not see equality with God as a thing to be grasped. ⁓ and and I and and I take it to I take it to just literally mean because it it it just says, being in the form of God didn't see equality as a

Well with God as a thing to be grasped. That is, it is precisely because Christ is God that he saw that that he saw everything that he has as something to be shared. Like that's that's actually integral to who that's actually integral to who God is. God our God is a sharing God.

Amy Julia Becker (31:02)
Right. It's antithetical to God to be grasping and holding on rather than ⁓ sharing in generosity and yeah, abundance.

Malcolm Foley (31:11)
It's it's part of our understanding of God as Trinity. Within God's self. ⁓ and and in a just in a completely full way. ⁓ and so then so then when we look at the incarnation, it's an ex it's an expression of that, of that love and of that self-giving. And it's also an invitation to humanity to share in the divine to share in the divine life. I mean, this is this is th this is what I deeply believe is.

Is the story of Christian salvation. It is an invitation into the divine, it is an invitation into the divine life. And what Christ shows in the incarnation and in his life and in his death and in his resurrection is I'm taking on flesh in order to share everything that I have with you. ⁓ as I'll ⁓ express in more detail in the book that I'm working on right now, ⁓ it's in Revelation three, verse twenty one, Jesus says to the church at Laodicea.

So the one who overcomes, I will give to them the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat with my father on his throne, which is one of the most ridiculous verses in the entirety of the Bible. ⁓ so, but like, but but it's an indication that what that what that that what Jesus is is opening up for us is he's like, I want you to have all the things that I have, ⁓ even as wild as you might think that that is. And so if that's the Christ that we're united to, why do we cling?

To all this little stuff that he's that he's given us. It's not stuff that we, it's not ours in the first place. Yeah. And so, and so one of the ⁓ it's why kind of building habits, specifically habits of renunciation. So habits of you being reminded, this isn't mine. Like it belongs to the Lord. So I'm I'm just I'm going to build habits of giving it to be, to be reminded of the fact that it's not mine. Those are, those are, those are habits that then contradict

the habits of hoarding that we're that that that that we're taught kind of by our by our broader by our broader economy to to cultivate. ⁓ and so those are so so kind of hap so so building habits of renunciation, but also building ⁓ you know, kind of the the the ethos of being willing to share. But then there's also the being willing to ask for help part. because we're also told that self sufficiency is the goal.

⁓ it's the way that we raise our kids. Like we raise our kids to be self-sufficient and then that and then then and then they and then they can leave. Like that, like I mean that's the that's the that's that's what we're told over and over again. ⁓ and and so asking for help is seen as shameful. And like, and I think about the fact I you know, I think about when we in church come to the come to the Lord's Supper and come and come to the table. We come as people who are in need of Christ. And then we leave the table and we're like, okay, let me go back to my life of self sufficiency.

It's like no, no, no, no. Like you are constantly a person in need. ⁓ and also, like when you see your neighbor or your brother or sister, like they have things that you need. ⁓ and you and you have things that they need. So what would it look like to build, like what would it look like to build relationships where that's a base assumption? Basically. Like the base assumption, like it and regardless of that other person's economic situation or whatever, like they still have something that you need. You still have something that they need.

⁓ it it it it adds another kind of it it just adds another level of weight to weight to these relationships, which is necessary because you're coming into contact with eternal beings when you come into contact with another human being.

Amy Julia Becker (34:44)
⁓ I love that. And listeners to this podcast will have certainly heard some conversations about what you were just talking about as far as both our ⁓ the mutuality of the relationships that we're invited into, ⁓ mostly from the perspective of disability, ⁓ where I think there is a similar ⁓ experience of recognizing our humanity as both needy and needed. And that's so ⁓ runs so throughout. I I wanted to also ask you in terms of

Whether you have any examples of creative anti violence, what that might look like in our lived experience now.

Malcolm Foley (35:23)
Yeah. Well, I mean, the two examples that I think of are ⁓ you know, ways that our communities resist hunger in our broader communities and provide housing for people. Like that's at a very basic level. ⁓ and so so so I think about the fact that so in so in Waco, ⁓ the the ⁓ the nonprofit that our church kind of rents our rents our building from, they're doing this project where they're building

a tiny home community for the ⁓ for the ⁓ for the homeless community in Waco. And ⁓ and it was one of these things where I went to the elders of our church and I was like, hey, ⁓ let's be one of the most significant financial partners for this, for this, ⁓ for this ⁓ for this for this nonprofit and this work because this is literally the easiest thing for us to ask our congregation for. Like it's just there is no clearer obedience to the Lord and his commands.

than this. And so like so so we ⁓ I mean we raised and so and so we were able to raise about like fifty thousand dollars in three months just kind of on very short just on really on very short notice. And it was and it was funny because I there were there were some members of the group who were who were who were like, I don't know. I mean that's a that's a lot to ask. Like we've never done any fundraising campaign before. ⁓ And and and and I and I and I told him I was like well, you know, one of the reasons why

One of the reasons why we don't see the Lord work miracles in our midst is because we don't give them the opportunity to. And so and so and this is like this is the easiest ask for me to make of our for me to make of our of our congregation. So so so I so I told them, I scared them in a in a sermon at the end of the sermon. I was like, Hey, we're gonna do our first building campaign. And and and then and then I told them, like, no, no, no, but it's not it's not for us. it's to, it's to, it's to

Amy Julia Becker (37:16)
That's really cool.

Malcolm Foley (37:19)
is to house people who don't who don't who don't who who don't have homes. And so, ⁓ but like but that kind of thing, like I want those kinds of things to be no brainers for us. People need to eat. Okay. Like that let's do but but I also but also like our communities, because of the profound amount of need around us, it can be it can be really easy to get over like it it it can just be really easy to get overwhelmed and to kind of try to do everything.

And when folks try to do everything, it's very difficult to see the progress that your work actually makes. And so one of the one of the ways that I encourage folks is like, you know, is like focus on like two or three things and go and go really hard on those two or three things. Because then when you see the progress that can be made from that focus, then that will continue to bring it'll it'll it it that building that momentum is a really important thing, is a really important thing because.

Like we're not up against flesh and blood. We're we're we're up against towers and principalities. And so it's gonna be discouraging because you're up against a lot. ⁓ and one of the easiest ways, and it's and and this kind of work is a work that burns people out really, really quickly too. And so any ways that we can structure that care in a way that, you know, where we can see that tangible, we can see that tangible effect that then excites us and that and that then invites, then then then

that encourages us to invite other people to get involved to then see that impact and then to and then to continue it. Just kind of practically that's one of the ways that this continues. And then when there's work that you know needs to be done but you can't do it, well you can partner with other with other people who are doing that, who are, who are doing that kind of thing. ⁓ it alleviates the kind of pressure that we especially place on ourselves now because we have access to so much information and access to so much suffering. Right. We're just like, but I can't, I can't do, I can't do everything about everything. It's like, no, you can't.

and you don't need to. so yeah.

Amy Julia Becker (39:14)
And you don't need to. Yeah. ⁓

Well, those are beautiful ⁓ just examples and I really appreciate just the exhortation to be human in the ways in which we both address our sin, quite frankly, when it comes to greed and pride, but also the ways in which we act out of love. And ⁓ those are very, you know, to be people who share and to be people who assume

that we are needy and that we can actually bring what we have to others. And I I love the examples you offered. So thank you again, just for your time, but also for this book, both for again, addressing the problem, but also giving us some really beautiful ways to imagine and live into an imagination ⁓ for a different way of ⁓ being with one another. So I really appreciate it.

Malcolm Foley (40:07)
Well thank you.

Amy Julia Becker (40:13)
Thanks as always for listening to this episode of Reimagining the Good Life. It's fun to be back with you all in this season with such a diverse ⁓ range of interviews, including an upcoming conversation with Craig Thomas, who ⁓ was the creator of How I Met Your Mother and is also the author of a great novel ⁓ called That's Not How It Happened, which ⁓ has a main character with Down syndrome and a lot of commentary about ⁓ disability and parenting and family life.

Loved it. I get to talk with Dania Ruttenberg, a rabbi who has written about repentance and repair. And ⁓ it's really interesting in terms of such a polarizing and polarized time to be talking with her. I'm gonna be talking with ⁓ disability scholar and ethics professor Brian Brock about his new book. And hopefully all of these conversations will be interesting and intriguing to you as they were for me.

If any of these conversations, including this one, ⁓ resonates with you, please subscribe to my Reimagining the Good Life Substack newsletter. ⁓ we'll put a link in the show notes, and that will extend this same work that is happening here on this podcast. And as always, of course, we love it when you can follow, rate, review this show, and ⁓ share it with other people. We would love for more people to join this conversation. You can always ⁓ comment or send questions or ideas using the send us a text.

link at the end of the show notes. So, in conclusion, thank you, Jake Hanson, for editing this episode. Thank you, Amber Beery, my director of content for producing the show. And thank you for being here and for listening. Let's all keep reimagining the good life together.