AXSChat Podcast

AXSChat Podcast with Ricardo Garcia Bahamonde, Head of Accessibility & Digital Inclusion for the Iberia Region at Atos

March 25, 2022 Antonio Santos, Debra Ruh, Neil Milliken talk with Ricardo García Bahamonde
AXSChat Podcast
AXSChat Podcast with Ricardo Garcia Bahamonde, Head of Accessibility & Digital Inclusion for the Iberia Region at Atos
Show Notes Transcript

Ricardo García Bahamonde is the Head of Accessibility & Digital Inclusion for the Iberia Region at Atos. He has worked in the field of Digital Accessibility and Disability Inclusion since 2004 and has broad experience in consulting, project management, business development and training assignments in the United States, Latin America, the Middle East, and Europe helping companies, governments, universities, non-profits, and governments advance in their digital accessibility and inclusion policies and strategies. 

Between 2004 and 2015 Ricardo worked for the National Organization of the Spanish Blind on global accessibility, employment, and education-related projects. Between 2015 and 2018 Ricardo worked as Director of Strategic Development and Researcher at the Center for Inclusive Design and Innovation, CIDI (formerly, AMAC Accessibility) at Georgia Institute of Technology (Atlanta, USA). Since 2018 and before joining Atos, Ricardo worked as an independent consultant in Digital Accessibility and Disability Inclusion for the International Telecommunications Union (ITU) and the G3ict (USA).

An IAAP Certified Professional in Accessibility Core Competencies (CPACC), Ricardo holds a MA in Economics from the Universidad Complutense of Madrid, Spain and obtained his Project Management Professional (PMP) certificate from the Project Management Institute (PMI). He is a regular speaker at international conferences, having presented at over 60 events worldwide.

This is a draft transcript produced live at the event and corrected for spelling and basic errors. It is not a commercial transcript AXSCHAT Ricardo Garcia

NEIL:

Hello and welcome to Axschat. I'm really delighted that we can bring Ricardo Garcia Bahamonde, to the show today. Not the first time that you have been on Ricardo, the difference is this time I'm welcoming you as a colleague and as a member of our accessibility team at ATOS. So, I'm exploiting my privilege here a little bit to have you on. It's been a while since our Axschat audience have seen you so maybe you want to give us the history and the background of where you have come from, what you did before you ended up in my rag tag team of crazy accessibility warriors?

ERICA:

Hi, thank you Neil. Hello Antonio and Debra. Hello everyone and thanks for having me on today. It's a great pleasure to be back to Axschat. It's been quite a long time and many things have happened since then. We talked about that earlier. So just to give you a brief background of where I'm coming from. I started in this area of accessibility and inclusion of persons with disabilities, and everything related to technology in that sense back in 2004, right? I was into consulting, business intelligence, all that stuff and someone offered me a position within the Once Foundation for Latin America. I had no idea back then about accessibility. I had no idea about disability, about blind people and it was an amazing experience spending almost four years there, leading projects, basically for Latin America, for the inclusion of blind people, visually impaired people in Latin American countries, in areas like education and employment, entrepreneurship. And then at a I later stage I moved on to other areas within the foundation business group mainly and that is where we started doing all these projects in the European Union space but also started exploring what was going on in the US, right? So that is back in 2010 and 2011 more or less. What is going on in the US, right? So I remember travelling to Washington DC back then and meeting and reaching out actually to someone, Katie Harraday, she was the first person I met in the US, well known accessibility expert. Very, very respected and she introduced me to Debra and that is how all this started. We started talking and getting in touch with other people in turn and being introduced and introducing each other to more and more people and exploring a new possibility in the US. So that was late 2015 that I was offered a position with Georgia Tech, at AMEG Accessibility with Dr Christopher Lee, in Atlanta Georgia so I moved there and stayed there for three years and so we Debra and I worked together in several projects. And it was really an amazing opportunity and great, great learning experience and being able to work with so many universities and organisations in the United States sharing knowledge but also learning, as I said, a lot a lot and also having the opportunity to talk about this in many different international venues like an enabling Summit but also access Israel conference and many others here in Europe and also in Latin America. And in 2018, I moved back to Spain and since then, until I just recently joined ATOS, I worked as a consultant, as an independent consultant for many different organisations like the International Telecommunications Union and the ILO and the GCIT as well and projects for the World Bank and Alabama around digital accessibility and inclusion, policies. So as I said I joined back in just last November and I joined ATOS as head of accessibility and digital inclusion in Iberia, supporting everything in that area in Spain and Portugal and very excited to, having joined an amazing team of experts Neil, Antonio and many others and it's a really challenging effort that we are trying to spearhead here but very exciting at the same time. Lots to do. And I am totally positive about what we are going to be able to pull out and make possible here in Spain and also in another countries. So that is pretty much in a nutshell what I have been doing in the last few years.

DEBRA:

I would like just to like to make one comment. I know they need to mute me already, but one thing I love about your background Ricardo, and you are definitely a very dear friend, I loved your wife and your son. I love you have a background working with a NGO a Global NGO, Once, that is really focused on that perspective then you worked for one of the largest universities in the world and then you were also an entrepreneur and now you're working for one of our largest corporations and I'm fascinated by all those experiences and how good that is for our industry. But I also want to say, I bullied Neil to have this conversation because one thing I am seeing is once again we have the beautiful Valuable 500 and all those corporations committing to us as well as ATOS. How do we really do this because what I am seeing most organisations do is if they do have a person for accessibility it's usually just a collateral duty or if you're lucky to have a little team you're just focused on accessibility testing which is great but it's not big enough to really move us forward and really include us, meaning the community of people with disabilities. So I asked Neil if we could not just talk about the team that he is putting together and I just want to say that I was confused when I first met Antonio, because Antonio is not who I normally see in the accessibility field and Antonio, I had never seen anybody as good on social media as Antonio, he has taught me a lot over the years. But I was fascinated that ATOS would have someone like Antonio on the accessibility team and now others have followed your lead. We see it as Google, we see it at Amazon, we see it at Microsoft, Verizon where people are saying, no we really need somebody in the marketing and branding but not just to tell us a bunch of crap but actually engage us in the conversations. So, I just wanted to interpret and say that. So back to you Neil?

NEIL:

Well, thank you. I mean, I think that the thing is that we want to achieve systemic change because you can fix the accessibility of a product, or you can change the systems that make those products. So I have spent a lot of time trying to build a team of people that are communicators and connectors and ideas people and leaders and for me one of the things I am looking for people that can really add value, I am particularly attracted to people that are a bit different and are prepared to take risks that have unusual profiles. I think that that is something I am a bit like a Pied Piper for that. But I do also think that we want to go beyond just testing.

DEBRA:

Can you elaborate on that a little bit? What do you mean? I know what you mean when you say that I want to hire leaders, I want to hire people that are looking at these things a little differently. Do you mind just grounding that comment a little bit and I would just use a word like Alexandra, for example.

NEIL:

That is a name of a person.

DEBRA:

It is but I am just saying, Ricardo was one of the first person that I ever saw in my field, when I was in the field that was trying to connect all the dots.

NEIL:

Yeah, yeah.

DEBRA:

And I'm fascinated by him, and I am so glad Katie introduced us, but you were different.

NEIL:

So why am I interested in people that have a different perspective? Well because we have not got anywhere by taking the same route. So I want people that can look at things differently. I want people like Ricardo that are ultimate connectors. Like Antonio. So Ricardo and Antonio have different skill sets. They have the ability to connect dispirit themes and people in common. Right? And accessibility is a thread woven in the fabric of societies and inside our organisations and we need people that can connect that because we cannot do it all ourselves. So what I am looking for is a build, you know, a sort of critical mass of people that can lead and spread ideas because we can't do it all ourselves, we need to have that trust from other people that this is something that they wish to do and develop frameworks within which to do it and that is one of the reasons why Ricardo for example is working on procurement so I mean Ricardo can talk more about that than I can. And again, I am working with Ricardo again on organisational maturity.

ERICA:

If I may say something here, so I figure you're spot on that. We talked to many, many times within these all these international events. We preaching to the choir right because it's always the same, you know. New places, same old faces, we are not actually new places either right? So, what happens with talking about this to people that are not familiar or know nothing about accessibility, about inclusion. This is all alien to them. So that needs to be done not only extraordinarily, let's talk to customers, let's talk to partners, but how about internally, right? The folks that we sit next to that actually do this stuff every day, how are we helping them do this in an accessible way? How do we help them you know become familiar with all this and really understand the value that they can add to this whole effort, right, the contribution to the community and to this global effort in depolluting if you want of inaccessibility? The whole digital world or the whole ICT in the technological world, if you want right? So those are very, very important conversations that we need to have and figure out how we do that in the most effective way because obviously there is only so many of us here in this field. We know, many of us know each other, have known each other for years and it looks like hey, we can only do so much of this limited time we have, how can we scale this? We talk about scale all the time. We see all this you know 10X, let's say current going on, the exponential organisations, organisations that are growing at 10X rates. How can we do that? How can we achieve that with accessibility? Is there a way to do that? Because we see at the same time, we are saying at the pace of digital transformation, that is what we do at ATOS is picking up tremendously. How digital accessibility is picking up, is it picking up the same pace? No, I mean you just need to compare stats how they are or even web searches this is not scientific, but you can see by comparison the degree of interest in one thing or the other, right? In terms of okay I want to take on a digital transformation strategy because it's obvious, everybody is going digital, it's important, everybody is talking about that, right? I can't be out of that, right. How about accessibility? That is so important. That is such an important component. Everybody has got theorised the importance of data protection, Cyber security, all these things, right? How about accessibility? It's not, let's be honest, it's not perceived as important or as with a risk associated to it, as the other issues, right? And at the same time, we can see it as everything that has to do with disability inclusion. We can see that other, let's say inclusion items, like gender of course, like LGBT, like ethnicity and of course, all the environmental stuff. All that has been internalised in most countries, at least I would say in the west but in most countries worldwide. Most countries are taking steps or at least have acquired this conscience or awareness that all this is important. We are 21st century now. But how about disability? How about accessibility? What is going on? Why isn't it following the same pace? So all these conversations are the ones that we need to have with people with our teams, with our colleagues. The people that we again we work together with, sit next to and obviously to be able to talk about this outside, out there in the world.

NEIL:

Yeah. And so, Ricardo talked a little bit about pollution, and you know credit where credit is due, the idea of treating exclusion like pollution came from Jim Tobias, who is one of the elder statesmen of accessibility. And what he did was he lit my head up with ideas and I love the idea and it became well how do we actually use this concept to become something that we can apply to enable us to scale. So, within our organisation we are really, really big on sustainability. We are CDPA rated. We are top of the DJSI. We have an infrastructure within our organisation that does this stuff and we do it well. So rather than build from the ground up accessibility and pull against some of the stuff that is already happening, a conscious decision that I made and that was agreed collectively with the business that we follow the same path and that we actually really build this into our way of working. So, we have the same kind of reporting structure with the boards and that there is different laws and responsibilities across our organisation to deliver that and that is both internal and external. We have aligned that. And this is going to be unusual for Axschat. I'm actually going to share a screen for a moment. I don't normally do slides on Axschat. But I think that since we are doing this today it is probably a good idea for me to actually show you what I am talking about. So, we have, as a company, being French we have a raison d'etre, that is our sense of purpose. And part of it is to have this you know building a trusted and safe digital space and that means safe for everyone and sustainable and accessible. We also have a program which is our cultural program, and we have a set of values, and one of those five values is inclusive, and we have audacious and responsible and united, right? So, these are values that everyone can buy into, but they are also valuing that match with the stuff that we are doing. So, accessibility is kind of like pollution, so we have some frameworks, we needed to address them. You think of smog, it's tangible right? When we don't include that in the cost that people pay for the goods, it's the individuals that pay right? So, we are trying to remove that as digital organisations. As Ricardo says, there is an increasing amount of in accessibility because as we create more and more digital assets, we are not making them accessible from inception. So, the last thing we want to do and the least effective thing that we can do is go around chasing after these new things trying to fix them. We need to have a different approach. We need to be looking at this in terms of culture change and system change, right? And when you do this properly and you design inclusively and I'm not just talking about products here but I'm talking about organisations and management systems then you can create positive externalities, right? So, we need these frame works, and we are applying this framework within our own organisations. So Ill skip through some of these but this is how we align with our governance, right? Because we have ESG, this is environment, social and governance. This is how large organisations do sustainability. And accessibility is a social impact. It's social good. Good for people. Right? At the same time, you can't deliver at a systemic level without governance. And that is the thing, what we have is lots of pockets of good practice not systemic ways of doing things. Some organisations are trying to put this in. We are not alone in that respect. But essentially mapping it to ESG. And even, so with the governance and even in the environmental, it's disabled people that are most affected by environmental disasters and climate change. So, all of this is reflected in our program, we have mission statements, principles, rushing through this. Because actually I wanted to get to this slide which is actually how you synthesize this within all of the other corporate programs, and this is that we have our purpose. So, our raison d'etre is that ring around the outside. It's people, it's the purpose, it's the planet. But also, as a company we need to make profits and that is not a bad then. Profitability is a good thing, right? What we need to do is ensure that we are more profitable at doing the good things than doing the bad things. Right because then it becomes attractive even for the people that don't really care. You can also see that CSR, diversity, accessibility have some overlaps, but they are complimentary, you've got things like reporting and compliance because we have all got laws that we need to adhere to. So why duplicate? And you've good social good, and the SDG's and employee culture and experience etc. and we have actually, looking at co-opting the model that they use to decarbonisation so looking at different scopes and you've got direct. The stuff we make and the resources and products and so on that are in our control so we can design and produce accessible and improve our capabilities at that, which is why we've got people like Ricardo, people like John Hicks in France, Beatriz Gonzalez, me, there's in Germany, very German name that. Then Bissell Pijar in India. Jim Smyth covering the UK and Ireland. These are the leaders in the space that are helping us do this and then we've got indirect. So, we are looking at procurement like Ricardo mentioned before, trying to get suppliers and our partners to do this and then influence, through things actually like the Valuable 500, through the ILO. Through outreach and communications and our networks to influence the whole value chain so that we are creating not just systemic change within our own organisation but within the eco systems. So that is with what is sort of floats our boat if you like. And how we really sort of address it and are trying to address it within our organisation and with partners outside. So if you wanted to know why the team that we have built is quite different, this kind of explains it.

DEBRA:

And what is fascinating about what you're doing and I have been watching you build this over the years but what, I know that I have talked to a lot of corporations in the United States and criticism that they give to me often about the accessibility field is that the vendors and I am one of those vendors don't really understand the complexity of these gigantic organisations and they just don't understand that for example, just because you're a Chief Accessibility Officer and you tell a business unit to do XYZ yeah, they are not going to do it. So, I worked in large corporations for years before I became an entrepreneur for years. I understand how corporations work. Everybody thinks oh, you're a billion-dollar corporation, ATOS, give us some money. It doesn't work that way. I'm fascinated because what I'm seeing often in the States is just looking at compliance and by the way, we need to be compliant with our laws, I agree with what you said Neil, but we need to be more creative in these because accessibility and inclusion can be very beneficial to a corporation and their client's. But I don't see other groups doing what you're doing. There are a few groups that I see, Google is doing some very interesting things. Microsoft is always interesting. But I still don't see the innovation coming from the Accessibility Teams, from the corporations or from the vendors, not the innovation and I'm not. I'm part of the industry so I'm talking to myself too. But I thought it was so interesting though how you all were doing it. Because Neil why did you bring Antonio coming in? We never heard of anyone from marketing coming in, sorry.

ANTONIO:

Let me comment on something that you said, you know, we need to learn some lessons, some failures that we had over the last 20 years in the area of diversity. We are talking about diversity for so many years and sometimes, it always seems that we are starting you know. Firstly, job title is not going to make an organisation change. Even if that looks really nice for PR. You need to gain internal. You need to gain internal reputation. You might not have that fancy job title, but you have that reputation and if you have that internal reputation people will do things and that interpretation is sometimes more important repeating myself than that fancy job title and you need to be there to help people. You cannot just go away and dictate people what to do. You need to convert them and convince them. You need to be a friend. You need to be there for them when they need help. You need to support them. They have the journey, and you need to understand that.

NEIL:

Yeah. I fully agree. I think that if I can go back to Debra's question as to why Antonio, well because again I like people that are curious, and we live in a state of constant and accelerating change. People that are naturally curious, that naturally connect to people are going to be the key to organisational survival, right? Forget accessibility, just the key to remaining relevant. So that is why I mean I was interested in what Antonio was doing and you know, we had connected on some shared values, and I was super interested in social media because actually again, wanting to connect with community and bringing these things together because you can't do them alone. So I saw the value in his knowledge and his curiosity which is why we started working together and how we ended up forming Axschat with you and likewise it's that curiosity, the energy to want to change things that again, the I'm not going to say necessarily charisma because I think it's the ability to bring people with you, right? That is what I really seek out in people in the team because you know, it's about the art of persuasion and because we can't, you know despite having a policy, we have a policy it says you must do this. But the reality is you as much as you mandate stuff you still have to persuade and get it into people's minds that they wish to do this, you bring them along and some of that is why we create conceptual models because not everyone wants to do it because it's the right thing you know. It's why it's important for us to make profit, you know. We are a private organisation, and we have to make profit to survive. So, it's an important factor in what we do. And to what Antonio says, it was an important part of me and accessibility gaining credibility internally within the organisation that we could be profitable. So it wasn't then seen as oh well this is something we need to do for positioning it was business. And that is the difference.

DEBRA:

Yeah, that is powerful. That is so powerful. And other corporations like learning from corporations. I know that working in a corporation many years and also being an entrepreneur, I smell entrepreneur for gigantic corporations, the corporations, always worry appropriately that the small vendors are not going to be able to meet their needs and also a mistake I think we also make in the accessibility field is telling corporations like in ATOS that has, I don't know 200,000 employees all over the world. How many countries you're in. All the cultures that have to be considered, all the diversity and equity. And I just think we think about accessibility too small which is why I'm fascinated with the ATOS team. And I give a lot of credit to you Neil, as the leader of the team. But also, I give credit to some of your bosses that really supported you, that are now at other gigantic brands. So what is going to happen with those brands because they know accessibility and inclusion is important. So, co. rations need to learn from other corporations that is one thing I loved when Antonio at the beginning at Axschat, we kept bringing Siemens into the conversation, Siemens, Siemens, Siemens and I was fascinated what Siemens was doing, especially when they were focused on really making sure they were supporting women. The other day, I will make one more comment, the other day I had a training organisation reach out to me that trains diversity and inclusion and they said we would love to have you do our courses and of course you know what question I'm going to ask them. When you say diversity and inclusion, tell me what you're covering? So, they were covering African American women and LGBT and I said, what are now going to do for the largest diversity group? Even though we could argue women the largest, but we are not. We are more the majority, there are more women in the world than men. We are just treated like minorities, that's a whole another fight. But the reality is 1.2, 1.7 billion people with disabilities. It does not mean we all have access problems. But what are you doing? Please design your systems for us humans. So I like that your team, and I know so many of your team, the Alexanders, the Jim’s, the Mark Urban. I mean the Mark.

NEIL:

Wilcock.

DEBRA:

Thank you. Mark Urban works in the United States government. So Hey Mark. Mark Wilcock, he is our future, and I love how you all are pulling this altogether. And if you don't know what I am talking about, go back and watch some of the Axschats where we featured some of this team because Ricardo is new to the team, but Ricardo is not new to our industry. He has been a global leader for years. So I am fascinated with what you are doing and I know that I get no money from ATOS but the reason why I'm bragging about ATOS is this is the way we change the world. We get everybody included in the conversations because being inclusive is not just accessibility there is a whole lot of moving parts. So I just want to compliment you all.

NEIL:

Thank you. I think what was interesting. I had a conversation a couple years back, sat down with one of our top leaders and he said, if we are so bad Neil, why do you stay? Right? And you know I said because of scale because actually working for an organisation that touches so many rights? And the Googles and the Microsoft’s are doing amazing work and they do have scale but also, it's fairly sort of constrained, the product companies or advertising companies and you have got multiple different products but as a systems integrator, we get to influence everything. We get to see what is going on and we are right in the mix. So, it's what keeps it interesting. And I was open with them. I said I'm using ATOS as much as you're using me in that I am using the leverage of the scale of this organisation to implement systemic change and so you know I will put up with our bureaucracy and our processes and all of the stuff that you get which by the way is the same in every large organisation. We are all bloated and inefficient and all the rest of it because that is what happens when you through hundreds of thousands of people together across hundreds of countries and all over the place, so yeah, you have to put up with it. You can fix it from the inside but also use that scale and that scope and those connections to be able to take it to the next level in a way that you can't do by fixing one website, you know? I am the worst web accessibility expert on the planet. You know there are people that are much better than me. In fact, all of the apprentices that have come through our program are much better than me.

ERICA:

I think it's important in what you're saying I think it's very important to make accessibility viral, right? We are talking all the time; we are talking about how to scale and obviously what you're saying is totally right. I mean we can't go around trying to fix individual websites or document it. It does not make sense. It's impossible because the rate which we could do that is way, way smaller the rate that more and more digital content is created right? So how do we do that right? I think it's important that we have all these conversations with all the people that need to be involved and the water is racing, how do we create that. I think sometimes we need to convert people, I think we need to turn all the people that do something digital that play some role in digital in eventually creating applications, websites, documents, videos, whatever to turn them into converts, okay because that is, I mean unless something clicks inside it's hard that you do it, right? If there is no conviction in what you do, it does not make any sense and how do you achieve that conviction? Well that is probably by making something that has to do more with emotion, change inside and we have seen this all the time right? So yeah, yeah accessibility. The web content accessibility guidelines, yeah, yeah, boring stuff and when you show an example of a person with a disability that finally can do something, it's like oh this is so important. Now I get it yes. This is, we really need to work on this right? So it's the emotional, you know the emotional cog there inside all of us that clicks that triggers everything else or may trigger everything else, right? So how do we make that happen at scale, with all of the people that actually play some role within a workflow, creating offering content or approving content, designing, right? The task is huge, but I think it's actually the only way right to generate the critical mass of awareness among the community of people working in digital.

DEBRA:

It is the only way, I agree, the only way.

RICARDO:

Antonio there is a critical piece because of communications, right? How do you communicate that so that it pierces your emotional cog?

ANTONIO:

I know that we have you know many friends and people in our networks that run accessibility events. But for me that is not the place where the people that want to make change usually go.

DEBRA:

Correct.

ANTONIO:

So, we need to be able to be at places where decision makers go, attend and because they are the ones that we need to talk with where they can then, when they go back to their organisations they can go from the top down and say oh, we need to do this. Instead of having a lead of accessibility, trying to make an internal case internally it's better if it is someone that leads an organisation that goes down that organisation and asks, please do this, please move in this direction. I think it helps when you're able to. When you succeed on that matter.

DEBRA:

I agree Antonio, and the reality is we have not been doing that in our industry and that is why our industry is failing there are people that want us to stop calling our industry accessibility and disability inclusion. So I think we need to take a look at the corporate leaders that are making a real difference and I think ATOS is doing amazing work. So, I am sorry to brag about your Neil

NEIL:

It is not just me, you should be bragging about Antonio, Ricardo.

DEBRA:

I know, I meant your team.

NEIL:

The whole team, right and they are just the ones you met because there are so much more.

DEBRA:

Right. Everyone I have met have blown me away because I am going to use your word, they were curious, I am a curious person. I am so curious I'm sure I'm obnoxious. So, kudos, kudo. And I know we have gone long. So I want you to make sure we thank our sponsors and supporters but also Ricardo, we want to give you last chance to comment too but welcome to the ATOS team also from me. I am excited about what you're doing and that is why I really needed to twist Neil's arm to do this one today because he is like, we don't want to brag but I need you all to brag because I want the other companies to see what we are bragging about because this the way forward which is what Ricardo said it a little while ago.

RICARDO:

Well thank you Debra, thank you so much for your kind words and I am looking back at when we met like ten years ago or something or more and this you know when this whole conversation started and we’ll all this you know links and all these dot connections started and all that has been created since then through all these relationships and all these connections. It's so amazing.

DEBRA:

We are making progress. Yeah.

ERICA:

Map that out.

DEBRA:

We are making progress. We are doing it together.

ERICA:

Absolutely, all of us, the whole community and how it's grown and all of us contributing in one way or the other across the world and you see all the conversations that are going on right now with the current situation, unfortunately in Eastern Europe and people getting on the move and helping and lending a hand and it's amazing.

DEBRA:

Right. Yeah. This is the way we do it, together. So Neil we will give it back to you so you can thank our supporters.

NEIL:

Thank you Ricardo, thank you Debra, Antonio. Thank you, My Clear Text, for keeping us captioned. Great conversation. I hope I didn't monopolise it too much. Really passionate about the topic so thanks and look forward to this taking this to Twitter on Tuesday.

DEBRA:

I agree, and I will say Neil that I know it is not fun to brag but the reality is we need to tell the stories because we all know yeah sorry that ATOS is getting all this positive conversation but the reality is we have got to figure out how to move forward so that everybody is included. I think that how can you all not, everybody has got to know this right with all the losses we have sustained, the Pandemic, the war. We must be the change we want to see in the world. So I thank you all for doing that.

NEIL:

Thank you.