{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":1.34,"body":"This is a draft transcript"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":1.34,"body":"produced live at the event"},{"startTime":1.34,"endTime":2.55,"body":"and corrected for spelling"},{"startTime":1.34,"endTime":2.55,"body":"and basic errors."},{"startTime":2.55,"endTime":3.78,"body":"It is not"},{"startTime":2.55,"endTime":3.78,"body":"a commercial transcript"},{"startTime":3.78,"endTime":5.04,"body":"and will need to be checked"},{"startTime":3.78,"endTime":5.04,"body":"if you wish to publish it."},{"startTime":5.04,"endTime":6.02,"body":"AXSCHAT"},{"startTime":5.04,"endTime":6.02,"body":"Gareth Ford Williams"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":6.02,"endTime":7.22,"body":"Hello and welcome to Axschat."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":7.22,"endTime":8.55,"body":"We have got a guest on today"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":7.22,"endTime":8.55,"body":"that you have never,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":8.55,"endTime":9.76,"body":"ever seen before."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":9.76,"endTime":11.99,"body":"He is fresh,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":9.76,"endTime":11.99,"body":"he is new, he's FFW2."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":11.99,"endTime":13.35,"body":"He is Gareth Ford Williams."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":13.35,"endTime":16.35,"body":"Welcome back, Gareth."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":13.35,"endTime":16.35,"body":"It's good to see you."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":16.35,"endTime":18.57,"body":"It's been what too long,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":16.35,"endTime":18.57,"body":"I guess."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":19.62,"endTime":22.55,"body":"But obviously you're"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":19.62,"endTime":22.55,"body":"in a brave new world."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":23.87,"endTime":25.79,"body":"So, tell us what you're up to?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":27.84,"endTime":29.89,"body":"Well, I left the BBC"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":29.89,"endTime":34.56,"body":"finally after 18 plus years"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":29.89,"endTime":34.56,"body":"being there."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":36.04,"endTime":39.3,"body":"And that was kind"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":36.04,"endTime":39.3,"body":"in the middle the Pandemic."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":40.47,"endTime":43.61,"body":"So, it was kind of very,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":40.47,"endTime":43.61,"body":"very sad to go,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":43.61,"endTime":47.79,"body":"really genuinely"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":43.61,"endTime":47.79,"body":"and very attached to the place."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":47.79,"endTime":52.41,"body":"But decided for, there was"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":47.79,"endTime":52.41,"body":"a number of reasons to move on,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":53.24,"endTime":54.84,"body":"things that I wanted to do"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":56.03,"endTime":58.68,"body":"and things that I have never"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":56.03,"endTime":58.68,"body":"managed to do within my role,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":58.68,"endTime":61.33,"body":"and I thought that there was"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":58.68,"endTime":61.33,"body":"some very interesting"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":61.33,"endTime":64.72,"body":"sort of challenges and questions"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":61.33,"endTime":64.72,"body":"around accessibility."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":64.72,"endTime":67.65,"body":"So, now I teamed up"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":64.72,"endTime":67.65,"body":"with four other people."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":68.42,"endTime":70.43,"body":"Three of them are also X BBC."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":71.62,"endTime":74.82,"body":"All have come from"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":71.62,"endTime":74.82,"body":"the accessibility team"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":74.82,"endTime":79.08,"body":"as well who had joined me"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":74.82,"endTime":79.08,"body":"at ab11y.com."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":79.08,"endTime":81.12,"body":"That's ab11y.com."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":82.06,"endTime":85.97,"body":"And one ex director"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":82.06,"endTime":85.97,"body":"from Google has joined us."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":85.97,"endTime":90.97,"body":"So, we formed a company to start"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":85.97,"endTime":90.97,"body":"looking at inclusive design data"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":92.0,"endTime":96.55,"body":"because we don't have enough,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":92.0,"endTime":96.55,"body":"and we have lots of stuff"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":96.55,"endTime":98.7,"body":"that informs"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":96.55,"endTime":98.7,"body":"but very little that measures."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":99.28,"endTime":101.17,"body":"And so, this is an area"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":101.17,"endTime":103.32,"body":"that I have been"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":101.17,"endTime":103.32,"body":"fascinated in for a while."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":104.07,"endTime":107.72,"body":"Still bumbling along with the"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":104.07,"endTime":107.72,"body":"readability group as a group,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":107.72,"endTime":110.52,"body":"it's just an interest group"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":107.72,"endTime":110.52,"body":"kind of thing at the moment,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":110.52,"endTime":113.9,"body":"as an aside."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":110.52,"endTime":113.9,"body":"So, that is there."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":114.45,"endTime":119.26,"body":"And I also have a company FFW,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":114.45,"endTime":119.26,"body":"so that's the word double,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":119.91,"endTime":121.74,"body":"then the letters FW,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":121.74,"endTime":126.45,"body":"and so, I'm working with my wife"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":121.74,"endTime":126.45,"body":"who is the other W."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":127.1,"endTime":128.42,"body":"And so, we are working"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":127.1,"endTime":128.42,"body":"with clients"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":128.42,"endTime":131.82,"body":"but mostly to try"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":128.42,"endTime":131.82,"body":"and find organisations"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":131.82,"endTime":136.05,"body":"that haven't found"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":131.82,"endTime":136.05,"body":"the right approach yet"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":136.05,"endTime":137.95,"body":"to digital accessibility"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":137.95,"endTime":141.99,"body":"because every organisation"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":137.95,"endTime":141.99,"body":"has a different culture,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":141.99,"endTime":143.36,"body":"has a different product base,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":143.36,"endTime":147.14,"body":"has a different emotional"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":143.36,"endTime":147.14,"body":"resonance with its audience,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":147.14,"endTime":149.7,"body":"it has all sorts of things"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":147.14,"endTime":149.7,"body":"that differentiate it."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":149.7,"endTime":152.84,"body":"And often then the approach"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":149.7,"endTime":152.84,"body":"is the way that you integrate"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":152.84,"endTime":154.5,"body":"inclusion,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":152.84,"endTime":154.5,"body":"can be very, very different"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":154.5,"endTime":158.57,"body":"and they need to be"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":154.5,"endTime":158.57,"body":"sort of mindful to the brand"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":158.57,"endTime":160.16,"body":"and the organisation"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":158.57,"endTime":160.16,"body":"and the culture"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":160.16,"endTime":161.41,"body":"to make them work properly."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":161.41,"endTime":163.81,"body":"So, that is the sort of thing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":161.41,"endTime":163.81,"body":"that we are doing."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":164.71,"endTime":168.93,"body":"And so, I'm busy."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":164.71,"endTime":168.93,"body":"I'm very busy."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":169.79,"endTime":171.91,"body":"You don't seem to understand"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":171.91,"endTime":174.22,"body":"how retirement works Gareth."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":174.22,"endTime":175.48,"body":"No, this is not,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":175.48,"endTime":177.58,"body":"there is never"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":175.48,"endTime":177.58,"body":"going to be retirement."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":179.9,"endTime":181.46,"body":"I don't think I'll last."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":181.46,"endTime":184.93,"body":"I can't see me sat"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":181.46,"endTime":184.93,"body":"in a potting shed"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":185.45,"endTime":188.37,"body":"with a hidden bottle"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":185.45,"endTime":188.37,"body":"of sherry somewhere."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":188.37,"endTime":191.18,"body":"That is not me."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":191.91,"endTime":193.4,"body":"Maybe the hidden bottle"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":191.91,"endTime":193.4,"body":"of sherry"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":193.4,"endTime":195.95,"body":"but not in a potting shed."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":198.14,"endTime":202.61,"body":"Yeah, I think obviously we are"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":202.61,"endTime":204.81,"body":"going to have"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":202.61,"endTime":204.81,"body":"the drinks thing going on here"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":206.16,"endTime":213.27,"body":"but for sure there's been"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":206.16,"endTime":213.27,"body":"an awful lot of change."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":213.27,"endTime":215.84,"body":"People, we have seen"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":213.27,"endTime":215.84,"body":"a lot of people"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":215.84,"endTime":218.43,"body":"moving in"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":215.84,"endTime":218.43,"body":"the accessibility world"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":218.43,"endTime":221.99,"body":"over the last 12/18 months."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":221.99,"endTime":227.61,"body":"There has been a sort of lot"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":221.99,"endTime":227.61,"body":"of new organisations coming"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":227.61,"endTime":233.64,"body":"and sort of sucking up"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":227.61,"endTime":233.64,"body":"the talent from organisations"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":233.64,"endTime":237.54,"body":"that have been there doing it"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":233.64,"endTime":237.54,"body":"for a very long time."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":238.23,"endTime":242.54,"body":"And that is interesting"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":238.23,"endTime":242.54,"body":"to watch."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":243.95,"endTime":248.25,"body":"Obviously, I'm there trying"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":243.95,"endTime":248.25,"body":"to build a sort of shield"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":248.25,"endTime":251.63,"body":"to stop the losing"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":248.25,"endTime":251.63,"body":"my teams talent"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":253.15,"endTime":255.4,"body":"but yeah, absolutely,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":253.15,"endTime":255.4,"body":"it's interesting to watch,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":255.4,"endTime":258.27,"body":"to see the different types"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":255.4,"endTime":258.27,"body":"of organisations that are now,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":258.97,"endTime":262.86,"body":"obviously we did a lot of work"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":258.97,"endTime":262.86,"body":"with the BBC over the years,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":262.86,"endTime":264.81,"body":"how we come to meet"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":262.86,"endTime":264.81,"body":"in the first place."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":266.17,"endTime":270.21,"body":"But you know, there were really"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":266.17,"endTime":270.21,"body":"sort of three groups"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":270.21,"endTime":272.83,"body":"of organisations"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":270.21,"endTime":272.83,"body":"that were doing accessibility,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":272.83,"endTime":275.12,"body":"sort of consistently"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":272.83,"endTime":275.12,"body":"and predominantly."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":275.12,"endTime":280.17,"body":"There was media and broadcast,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":275.12,"endTime":280.17,"body":"public sector and then banking"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":280.17,"endTime":281.77,"body":"because they realised"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":280.17,"endTime":281.77,"body":"that the old people"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":281.77,"endTime":284.59,"body":"had the money and old people"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":281.77,"endTime":284.59,"body":"tended to acquire disabilities."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":284.59,"endTime":286.45,"body":"So, if they really"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":284.59,"endTime":286.45,"body":"wanted the money,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":287.1,"endTime":288.7,"body":"they better do this thing."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":289.81,"endTime":292.6,"body":"And now, it's all kinds"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":289.81,"endTime":292.6,"body":"of different"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":292.6,"endTime":295.17,"body":"really diverse companies"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":295.17,"endTime":298.07,"body":"that are really sort of start"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":295.17,"endTime":298.07,"body":"of get bitten or recruiting."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":298.73,"endTime":300.33,"body":"And it's growing exponentially."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":301.41,"endTime":304.2,"body":"There is more need"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":301.41,"endTime":304.2,"body":"than there is supply"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":304.2,"endTime":306.37,"body":"as far as knowledge"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":304.2,"endTime":306.37,"body":"is concerned."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":306.37,"endTime":310.77,"body":"So, it's growing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":306.37,"endTime":310.77,"body":"at an extraordinary rate."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":310.77,"endTime":314.08,"body":"And I think there is a lot"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":310.77,"endTime":314.08,"body":"of different reasons for this."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":316.07,"endTime":319.46,"body":"And some of them are very direct"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":316.07,"endTime":319.46,"body":"and some of them quite indirect"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":320.72,"endTime":323.8,"body":"and some of them,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":320.72,"endTime":323.8,"body":"some people will see as good"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":323.8,"endTime":326.45,"body":"and some of them some people"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":323.8,"endTime":326.45,"body":"will see as not so good."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":328.25,"endTime":330.12,"body":"But I'm finding it fascinating"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":330.63,"endTime":334.04,"body":"that there is a bit"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":330.63,"endTime":334.04,"body":"of a brain drain,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":334.04,"endTime":335.98,"body":"I think is a good way"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":334.04,"endTime":335.98,"body":"of describing it,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":335.98,"endTime":337.58,"body":"around talent at the minute"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":338.12,"endTime":340.43,"body":"because everyone"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":338.12,"endTime":340.43,"body":"is spreading out."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":340.43,"endTime":341.89,"body":"There are teams growing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":340.43,"endTime":341.89,"body":"all over the place"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":341.89,"endTime":343.52,"body":"because one of the other things"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":341.89,"endTime":343.52,"body":"I should have mentioned"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":343.52,"endTime":345.56,"body":"that I'm involved in"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":345.56,"endTime":347.03,"body":"and didn't because"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":345.56,"endTime":347.03,"body":"it's a voluntary thing."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":347.03,"endTime":348.84,"body":"There's a thing called"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":347.03,"endTime":348.84,"body":"the Champions of Accessibility"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":348.84,"endTime":352.02,"body":"network,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":348.84,"endTime":352.02,"body":"which is a network I co-manage"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":352.62,"endTime":356.71,"body":"which Charlie Tyrell"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":352.62,"endTime":356.71,"body":"who is also from BBC"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":357.65,"endTime":359.35,"body":"and Heather Hepburn"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":357.65,"endTime":359.35,"body":"from Sky Scanner."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":359.35,"endTime":360.85,"body":"It's the three of us,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":359.35,"endTime":360.85,"body":"are the main ones."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":360.85,"endTime":364.07,"body":"Plus there's a small gang"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":360.85,"endTime":364.07,"body":"of others like David Tisserand,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":364.07,"endTime":370.14,"body":"etc;"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":364.07,"endTime":370.14,"body":"who are helping us organise"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":371.42,"endTime":372.64,"body":"and pull this whole"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":371.42,"endTime":372.64,"body":"thing together"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":372.64,"endTime":376.92,"body":"but we have a network of people"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":372.64,"endTime":376.92,"body":"running Champions Networks,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":377.56,"endTime":381.19,"body":"and it's simply a group"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":377.56,"endTime":381.19,"body":"on LinkedIn"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":381.72,"endTime":384.69,"body":"and we have a group of people"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":381.72,"endTime":384.69,"body":"and everyone in there"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":384.69,"endTime":386.57,"body":"is either has"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":384.69,"endTime":386.57,"body":"a Champions Network"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":386.57,"endTime":388.73,"body":"or wants to set one up"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":386.57,"endTime":388.73,"body":"and we just support"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":388.73,"endTime":391.15,"body":"and that is all we do."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":388.73,"endTime":391.15,"body":"It's like a peer group."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":391.15,"endTime":396.18,"body":"And there is now nearly"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":391.15,"endTime":396.18,"body":"400 members of the group"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":396.18,"endTime":401.59,"body":"which takes us to over 150"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":396.18,"endTime":401.59,"body":"organisations who are either,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":401.59,"endTime":402.82,"body":"have a champions network"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":402.82,"endTime":405.94,"body":"or are trying to set up an"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":402.82,"endTime":405.94,"body":"accessibility champions network,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":405.94,"endTime":411.15,"body":"which role it back, three years"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":405.94,"endTime":411.15,"body":"and I had more fingers"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":411.15,"endTime":413.8,"body":"and toes than there was"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":411.15,"endTime":413.8,"body":"champions networks in the world."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":413.8,"endTime":416.57,"body":"And I think that is a really"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":413.8,"endTime":416.57,"body":"interesting indication"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":416.57,"endTime":419.7,"body":"because all of them managing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":416.57,"endTime":419.7,"body":"by accessibility people"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":419.7,"endTime":422.09,"body":"or people that it's becoming"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":419.7,"endTime":422.09,"body":"part of their role"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":422.89,"endTime":425.47,"body":"and just seeing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":422.89,"endTime":425.47,"body":"that microcosm of it,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":425.47,"endTime":428.17,"body":"makes you realise that"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":425.47,"endTime":428.17,"body":"this really is exploding"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":429.17,"endTime":430.77,"body":"in the industry."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":431.59,"endTime":433.14,"body":"And I think the wheels are going"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":431.59,"endTime":433.14,"body":"to come in off"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":433.14,"endTime":434.84,"body":"in many wonderful ways."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":435.92,"endTime":440.27,"body":"It's going to be, you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":435.92,"endTime":440.27,"body":"we are grabbing hold of the bits"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":440.27,"endTime":442.46,"body":"that we can that are"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":440.27,"endTime":442.46,"body":"within our gift,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":443.38,"endTime":446.18,"body":"but people are now looking for"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":443.38,"endTime":446.18,"body":"solutions left, right and centre"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":446.18,"endTime":449.69,"body":"and looking for ideas and it's"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":446.18,"endTime":449.69,"body":"sometimes there is good things"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":449.69,"endTime":453.25,"body":"and sometimes there is not so"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":449.69,"endTime":453.25,"body":"good things that kind of happen."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":453.25,"endTime":455.65,"body":"I don't want to beat"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":453.25,"endTime":455.65,"body":"around the bush."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":455.65,"endTime":459.24,"body":"But the overlay phenomenon"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":455.65,"endTime":459.24,"body":"happened in the middle of this"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":460.28,"endTime":462.82,"body":"and there are organisations"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":460.28,"endTime":462.82,"body":"left right and centre."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":462.82,"endTime":464.82,"body":"But I think good"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":462.82,"endTime":464.82,"body":"will come from that"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":465.73,"endTime":468.36,"body":"because you know"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":465.73,"endTime":468.36,"body":"it's fascinating."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":468.36,"endTime":471.0,"body":"All of the organisations"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":468.36,"endTime":471.0,"body":"that seem to be going into them"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":471.0,"endTime":472.5,"body":"and they are buying"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":471.0,"endTime":472.5,"body":"into the wrong thing,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":472.5,"endTime":473.71,"body":"and we know there are."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":473.71,"endTime":476.29,"body":"They are looking for quick fix"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":473.71,"endTime":476.29,"body":"to a complex problem"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":477.13,"endTime":481.18,"body":"and it's an initial response"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":477.13,"endTime":481.18,"body":"that they are organisations"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":481.18,"endTime":483.53,"body":"that now have accessibility"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":481.18,"endTime":483.53,"body":"at the table."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":484.33,"endTime":487.13,"body":"There is a discussion somehow"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":484.33,"endTime":487.13,"body":"somewhere going on there."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":487.13,"endTime":488.33,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":488.33,"endTime":489.93,"body":"Where there wasn't one before."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":491.3,"endTime":493.54,"body":"And so only good"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":491.3,"endTime":493.54,"body":"will come of it."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":494.95,"endTime":498.27,"body":"And I do think"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":494.95,"endTime":498.27,"body":"that you know that"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":499.31,"endTime":501.87,"body":"whilst there are all sorts"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":499.31,"endTime":501.87,"body":"of things wrong"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":501.87,"endTime":504.54,"body":"with both the sales approach,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":505.21,"endTime":507.66,"body":"the miss selling"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":505.21,"endTime":507.66,"body":"of the capabilities"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":507.66,"endTime":509.64,"body":"and the misunderstanding"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":509.64,"endTime":513.94,"body":"of where accessibility needs to"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":509.64,"endTime":513.94,"body":"be baked into any organisation."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":515.43,"endTime":520.27,"body":"We have seen the same"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":515.43,"endTime":520.27,"body":"kind of resistance"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":520.27,"endTime":523.94,"body":"and backlash to many sorts"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":520.27,"endTime":523.94,"body":"of new technologies"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":523.94,"endTime":528.01,"body":"that end up bringing"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":523.94,"endTime":528.01,"body":"utility further down the line"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":528.01,"endTime":534.31,"body":"and I think that so,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":528.01,"endTime":534.31,"body":"I think it's, there is you know,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":534.89,"endTime":538.26,"body":"potential for stuff"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":534.89,"endTime":538.26,"body":"to be useful."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":538.26,"endTime":542.55,"body":"So, I think the key caveat,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":538.26,"endTime":542.55,"body":"I always add is, you know,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":543.4,"endTime":546.78,"body":"it may help some people"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":543.4,"endTime":546.78,"body":"so long"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":546.78,"endTime":548.7,"body":"as it doesn’t interfere"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":546.78,"endTime":548.7,"body":"with assistive tech."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":548.7,"endTime":550.77,"body":"The problem is just about"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":548.7,"endTime":550.77,"body":"all of them interfere"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":550.77,"endTime":552.58,"body":"with assistive tech"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":550.77,"endTime":552.58,"body":"at the moment."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":552.58,"endTime":554.6,"body":"So that is what really"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":552.58,"endTime":554.6,"body":"breaks the deal for me."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":554.6,"endTime":560.83,"body":"So, ideologically I don't have"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":554.6,"endTime":560.83,"body":"a huge problem with it."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":560.83,"endTime":562.69,"body":"I think that there are"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":560.83,"endTime":562.69,"body":"some challenges"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":562.69,"endTime":566.2,"body":"because you know someone"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":562.69,"endTime":566.2,"body":"is having this service"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":566.2,"endTime":567.5,"body":"and it might only be"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":566.2,"endTime":567.5,"body":"one line of code"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":567.5,"endTime":569.63,"body":"and it's actually"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":567.5,"endTime":569.63,"body":"working really, really well"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":569.63,"endTime":572.89,"body":"and it fixes"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":569.63,"endTime":572.89,"body":"everything fantastic"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":573.47,"endTime":575.03,"body":"and then someone"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":573.47,"endTime":575.03,"body":"in the accounts department"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":575.03,"endTime":578.23,"body":"goes maybe we can make a saving"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":575.03,"endTime":578.23,"body":"we will cancel this subscription"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":579.19,"endTime":581.58,"body":"and suddenly their website"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":579.19,"endTime":581.58,"body":"is not accessible again"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":581.58,"endTime":584.7,"body":"because they haven't done"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":581.58,"endTime":584.7,"body":"anything to the underlying site."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":584.7,"endTime":586.18,"body":"Then you haven't"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":584.7,"endTime":586.18,"body":"changed the culture"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":586.18,"endTime":587.78,"body":"and made the organisations"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":586.18,"endTime":587.78,"body":"acceptable."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":587.78,"endTime":590.63,"body":"You have devolved"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":587.78,"endTime":590.63,"body":"your responsibility"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":590.63,"endTime":596.69,"body":"to a subscription."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":590.63,"endTime":596.69,"body":"So, that is kind of..."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":596.69,"endTime":598.44,"body":"If you remember, Neil,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":599.73,"endTime":604.4,"body":"go back into the mists of time"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":599.73,"endTime":604.4,"body":"when I was just in my,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":604.4,"endTime":605.86,"body":"I think the best way"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":604.4,"endTime":605.86,"body":"of describing it,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":605.86,"endTime":608.08,"body":"my accessibility"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":605.86,"endTime":608.08,"body":"short trousers,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":608.08,"endTime":610.94,"body":"you know, I was very new"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":608.08,"endTime":610.94,"body":"and young to it."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":610.94,"endTime":612.73,"body":"And we are still"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":610.94,"endTime":612.73,"body":"trying things out."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":612.73,"endTime":620.34,"body":"2005/2006, it was a world where"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":612.73,"endTime":620.34,"body":"new propositions were coming up."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":620.34,"endTime":622.77,"body":"You know, the iPlayer"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":620.34,"endTime":622.77,"body":"had been born"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":622.77,"endTime":626.07,"body":"as a concept within"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":622.77,"endTime":626.07,"body":"the organisation, if it wasn't,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":626.07,"endTime":628.46,"body":"you know, two years off"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":626.07,"endTime":628.46,"body":"from being delivered."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":628.46,"endTime":632.45,"body":"And you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":628.46,"endTime":632.45,"body":"the BBC had three sorts"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":632.45,"endTime":634.76,"body":"of plug-in overlay type things."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":634.76,"endTime":638.53,"body":"We had Betsy."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":634.76,"endTime":638.53,"body":"We had the text only solution"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":638.53,"endTime":640.2,"body":"and we had"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":638.53,"endTime":640.2,"body":"the accessibility tool kit"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":640.2,"endTime":642.97,"body":"which were all on different"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":640.2,"endTime":642.97,"body":"parts of the estate"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":642.97,"endTime":644.28,"body":"because in those days,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":644.28,"endTime":646.55,"body":"the estate was very,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":644.28,"endTime":646.55,"body":"very, very broken"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":646.55,"endTime":648.449,"body":"and there was tonnes"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":646.55,"endTime":648.449,"body":"of legacy content"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":649.11,"endTime":652.57,"body":"that comes from the dark days"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":649.11,"endTime":652.57,"body":"when no one really kind of knew"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":652.57,"endTime":655.2,"body":"how to do accessibility its"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":652.57,"endTime":655.2,"body":"and some bits were quite good"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":655.2,"endTime":658.25,"body":"and other bits were all"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":655.2,"endTime":658.25,"body":"table layouts and it was broken."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":658.79,"endTime":660.5,"body":"So, we had one"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":658.79,"endTime":660.5,"body":"on the news site"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":660.5,"endTime":663.89,"body":"that was trying to fix"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":660.5,"endTime":663.89,"body":"the news you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":663.89,"endTime":666.35,"body":"to make it better"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":663.89,"endTime":666.35,"body":"for assistive technology"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":666.35,"endTime":668.16,"body":"and it was actually,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":666.35,"endTime":668.16,"body":"it took a different twist."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":668.16,"endTime":670.92,"body":"It was instead of replacing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":668.16,"endTime":670.92,"body":"assistive technology."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":670.92,"endTime":674.46,"body":"It was there to try and fiction"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":670.92,"endTime":674.46,"body":"some of the problems"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":674.46,"endTime":677.56,"body":"or do an improvement."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":674.46,"endTime":677.56,"body":"It wasn't perfect but it was"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":677.56,"endTime":679.459,"body":"and then Betsy"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":677.56,"endTime":679.459,"body":"stripped everything out"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":680.49,"endTime":683.28,"body":"and just turned everything"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":680.49,"endTime":683.28,"body":"into a linear experience"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":683.28,"endTime":685.75,"body":"in better contrast colours"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":683.28,"endTime":685.75,"body":"and a bigger font"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":685.75,"endTime":687.04,"body":"and all the rest of it."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":687.04,"endTime":691.4,"body":"But it was, you know it was"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":687.04,"endTime":691.4,"body":"a very sledgehammer approach"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":691.4,"endTime":696.48,"body":"to trying to make table space,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":691.4,"endTime":696.48,"body":"tabular base stuff accessible."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":696.48,"endTime":700.62,"body":"And then we built"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":696.48,"endTime":700.62,"body":"this rather bizarre,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":702.98,"endTime":706.65,"body":"it was my idea,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":702.98,"endTime":706.65,"body":"a customisation tool."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":706.65,"endTime":709.12,"body":"An iPlayer one for the first"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":706.65,"endTime":709.12,"body":"like eight months,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":709.12,"endTime":710.72,"body":"there was a button"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":709.12,"endTime":710.72,"body":"called display options,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":710.72,"endTime":712.31,"body":"you could go in there"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":710.72,"endTime":712.31,"body":"and you could change the fonts"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":712.31,"endTime":713.52,"body":"and all the rest of it."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":713.52,"endTime":715.7,"body":"We realised after a while"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":713.52,"endTime":715.7,"body":"this was pointless"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":715.7,"endTime":718.91,"body":"because all of the operation"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":715.7,"endTime":718.91,"body":"systems and browsers"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":718.91,"endTime":721.55,"body":"were starting to build"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":718.91,"endTime":721.55,"body":"the type of functionality"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":722.53,"endTime":724.73,"body":"that we were trying"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":722.53,"endTime":724.73,"body":"to build into the page."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":724.73,"endTime":728.04,"body":"And this is when we kind of"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":724.73,"endTime":728.04,"body":"ended up realising"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":728.04,"endTime":730.62,"body":"that in page customisation"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":728.04,"endTime":730.62,"body":"is kind of pointless."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":730.62,"endTime":732.8,"body":"We are on the Internet"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":730.62,"endTime":732.8,"body":"and people want to,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":733.31,"endTime":734.93,"body":"when they want"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":733.31,"endTime":734.93,"body":"to make a change,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":734.93,"endTime":737.55,"body":"they want to change everything,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":734.93,"endTime":737.55,"body":"not just your site."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":738.3,"endTime":741.68,"body":"So, we abandoned that as an idea"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":738.3,"endTime":741.68,"body":"and just went,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":741.68,"endTime":746.65,"body":"we could see where sort of"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":741.68,"endTime":746.65,"body":"the platform providers"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":746.65,"endTime":749.26,"body":"were Apple and Google"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":746.65,"endTime":749.26,"body":"and Microsoft were going"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":749.26,"endTime":753.87,"body":"and we just go, we'll support,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":749.26,"endTime":753.87,"body":"I can't remember the phrase now."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":754.7,"endTime":755.98,"body":"It was a sort of system"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":755.98,"endTime":758.65,"body":"level accessibility"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":755.98,"endTime":758.65,"body":"functionality first."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":758.65,"endTime":762.88,"body":"You know, that is the native"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":758.65,"endTime":762.88,"body":"accessibility of the platform"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":762.88,"endTime":764.43,"body":"and so, that is where"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":762.88,"endTime":764.43,"body":"we went with that."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":764.43,"endTime":766.4,"body":"So, we shut the display options,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":766.4,"endTime":768.37,"body":"but the others were there"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":766.4,"endTime":768.37,"body":"and so, in some ways,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":768.37,"endTime":771.31,"body":"I think, you know"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":768.37,"endTime":771.31,"body":"these could be good things"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":772.16,"endTime":776.64,"body":"for doing temporary fixes"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":772.16,"endTime":776.64,"body":"for estates, for legacy content,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":776.64,"endTime":779.5,"body":"you can't go back and change the"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":776.64,"endTime":779.5,"body":"three million pages over there."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":779.5,"endTime":782.08,"body":"That is never going to happen."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":782.08,"endTime":784.15,"body":"We have to wait"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":782.08,"endTime":784.15,"body":"for those to be shut down"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":784.15,"endTime":786.67,"body":"and we've got to build"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":784.15,"endTime":786.67,"body":"something else in the meantime."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":786.67,"endTime":789.73,"body":"In the interim great but I think"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":786.67,"endTime":789.73,"body":"that's this whole thing,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":789.73,"endTime":793.59,"body":"Neil where you're saying,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":789.73,"endTime":793.59,"body":"it's the sales"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":793.59,"endTime":795.86,"body":"and it's the promise"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":793.59,"endTime":795.86,"body":"or the over promise"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":795.86,"endTime":799.38,"body":"or the information"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":795.86,"endTime":799.38,"body":"around the thing and their usage"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":799.38,"endTime":802.38,"body":"is the problem not the things"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":799.38,"endTime":802.38,"body":"themselves necessarily."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":803.0,"endTime":804.3,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":804.3,"endTime":809.18,"body":"Some of the built-in readers"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":804.3,"endTime":809.18,"body":"and stuff for people"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":809.18,"endTime":810.8,"body":"that don't have assistive tech"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":810.8,"endTime":814.25,"body":"that don't know that it's built"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":810.8,"endTime":814.25,"body":"into their operating system,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":814.25,"endTime":818.45,"body":"having it sort of telegraphed"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":814.25,"endTime":818.45,"body":"across the screen"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":818.45,"endTime":820.26,"body":"and they can have this."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":820.26,"endTime":823.63,"body":"Maybe theirs first introduction"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":820.26,"endTime":823.63,"body":"to assistive technology,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":823.63,"endTime":825.76,"body":"maybe access something."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":825.76,"endTime":830.79,"body":"So, it's, you know"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":825.76,"endTime":830.79,"body":"it's not a black and white."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":830.79,"endTime":833.17,"body":"There are lots and lots"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":830.79,"endTime":833.17,"body":"of shades of grey on this"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":833.17,"endTime":834.77,"body":"but there are no shades of grey"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":834.77,"endTime":836.67,"body":"about the way"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":834.77,"endTime":836.67,"body":"that they sell them."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":836.67,"endTime":840.57,"body":"Right? Because they sell them"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":836.67,"endTime":840.57,"body":"as a cure all"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":840.57,"endTime":841.88,"body":"and then certainly not that"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":841.88,"endTime":844.81,"body":"and the fact they interfere"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":841.88,"endTime":844.81,"body":"with assistive tech"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":844.81,"endTime":848.55,"body":"and then actually prevent"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":844.81,"endTime":848.55,"body":"assistive tech users"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":848.55,"endTime":852.14,"body":"from accessing the sites"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":848.55,"endTime":852.14,"body":"is pretty much unforgiveable."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":852.14,"endTime":856.02,"body":"As is the behaviour of some"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":852.14,"endTime":856.02,"body":"of these organisations"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":856.02,"endTime":860.01,"body":"then going out"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":856.02,"endTime":860.01,"body":"and you know,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":860.01,"endTime":863.11,"body":"setting the lawyers"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":860.01,"endTime":863.11,"body":"on the accessibility advocates"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":863.11,"endTime":867.43,"body":"that are pointing out the"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":863.11,"endTime":867.43,"body":"challenges they have, you know."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":867.43,"endTime":870.64,"body":"Those are the things that really"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":867.43,"endTime":870.64,"body":"then sort of you know,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":872.1,"endTime":875.4,"body":"think you know you're definitely"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":872.1,"endTime":875.4,"body":"in this for the wrong reason."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":876.03,"endTime":879.75,"body":"Right and also it"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":876.03,"endTime":879.75,"body":"just confuses everybody,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":879.75,"endTime":882.59,"body":"and it creates and us"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":879.75,"endTime":882.59,"body":"and them, as we said."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":882.59,"endTime":884.24,"body":"I know that Antonio"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":882.59,"endTime":884.24,"body":"had a question,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":884.24,"endTime":887.15,"body":"so I wanted to give"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":884.24,"endTime":887.15,"body":"the mic to you Antonio."},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":888.54,"endTime":890.14,"body":"I would like to a little bit"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":891.38,"endTime":893.78,"body":"to the beginning"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":891.38,"endTime":893.78,"body":"of the conversation,"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":893.78,"endTime":895.75,"body":"Gareth when you are talking"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":893.78,"endTime":895.75,"body":"about more there's people"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":895.75,"endTime":899.91,"body":"talking about accessibility"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":895.75,"endTime":899.91,"body":"organisations are hiring more."},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":900.43,"endTime":903.41,"body":"We also see more CEOs"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":900.43,"endTime":903.41,"body":"making pledges."},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":904.75,"endTime":907.84,"body":"We see more people"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":904.75,"endTime":907.84,"body":"doing reporting."},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":908.39,"endTime":909.91,"body":"But sometimes down the line"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":909.91,"endTime":913.39,"body":"you have an employee"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":909.91,"endTime":913.39,"body":"that looks at the screen"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":913.39,"endTime":917.14,"body":"oh everything is happening"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":913.39,"endTime":917.14,"body":"out there, far from me."},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":917.87,"endTime":921.21,"body":"It's really nice that they sign"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":917.87,"endTime":921.21,"body":"all that it's really nice that,"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":921.72,"endTime":924.42,"body":"but I'm still not"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":921.72,"endTime":924.42,"body":"comfortable enough"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":924.42,"endTime":926.02,"body":"talking about what I need."},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":928.25,"endTime":931.51,"body":"Nobody has ever asked me"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":928.25,"endTime":931.51,"body":"what I need."},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":931.51,"endTime":937.67,"body":"So, how can we somehow bring"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":931.51,"endTime":937.67,"body":"together or narrow this bridge"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":938.44,"endTime":941.16,"body":"to make sure that people"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":938.44,"endTime":941.16,"body":"who have been up there"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":941.16,"endTime":945.35,"body":"asking for solutions,"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":941.16,"endTime":945.35,"body":"people nobody was ever,"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":945.35,"endTime":947.79,"body":"nobody ever care"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":945.35,"endTime":947.79,"body":"in the organisation"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":947.79,"endTime":950.41,"body":"to ask an opinion"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":947.79,"endTime":950.41,"body":"about what they need."},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":950.41,"endTime":951.62,"body":"How can we make sure"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":951.62,"endTime":954.47,"body":"that we are not failing"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":951.62,"endTime":954.47,"body":"to this group of people?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":954.47,"endTime":957.62,"body":"Need, the word need is the thing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":957.62,"endTime":961.43,"body":"that has been fascinating me"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":957.62,"endTime":961.43,"body":"for a long time"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":961.43,"endTime":963.77,"body":"because we, for a lot"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":961.43,"endTime":963.77,"body":"of different reasons"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":963.77,"endTime":966.81,"body":"because it all comes down"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":963.77,"endTime":966.81,"body":"to needs and this is for anyone."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":967.7,"endTime":970.98,"body":"You know, for all of us,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":967.7,"endTime":970.98,"body":"we all have functional,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":970.98,"endTime":974.84,"body":"technical and emotional needs"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":970.98,"endTime":974.84,"body":"when we are dealing with things."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":976.17,"endTime":979.36,"body":"And so, this is something"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":976.17,"endTime":979.36,"body":"that we kind of,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":980.32,"endTime":982.86,"body":"we sometimes get mixed up"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":980.32,"endTime":982.86,"body":"the way we measure things."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":982.86,"endTime":985.6,"body":"The language, we haven't found"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":982.86,"endTime":985.6,"body":"the right language"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":985.6,"endTime":990.76,"body":"for all of this yet,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":985.6,"endTime":990.76,"body":"and so there is still you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":990.76,"endTime":994.01,"body":"a sort of I think"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":990.76,"endTime":994.01,"body":"there's a cultural problem"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":994.01,"endTime":996.64,"body":"and it's a historical one"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":994.01,"endTime":996.64,"body":"about the way"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":996.64,"endTime":998.24,"body":"that people have grown up."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":999.64,"endTime":1002.72,"body":"How comfortable they are"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":999.64,"endTime":1002.72,"body":"around the language."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1002.72,"endTime":1005.25,"body":"The permissions"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1002.72,"endTime":1005.25,"body":"that are given around this."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1005.98,"endTime":1008.09,"body":"You know, there is"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1005.98,"endTime":1008.09,"body":"a lot of misinformation."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1008.09,"endTime":1011.18,"body":"You know the amounts"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1008.09,"endTime":1011.18,"body":"of accessibility memes"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1011.18,"endTime":1012.42,"body":"that go around,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1012.42,"endTime":1015.86,"body":"and you know"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1012.42,"endTime":1015.86,"body":"and there are some people"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1015.86,"endTime":1019.21,"body":"trying to jump on to things"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1015.86,"endTime":1019.21,"body":"and find out is this a solution?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1019.21,"endTime":1023.31,"body":"Is this a thing."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1019.21,"endTime":1023.31,"body":"Do I just replace this font,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1023.31,"endTime":1025.34,"body":"you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1023.31,"endTime":1025.34,"body":"all our fonts with one font"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1025.34,"endTime":1028.99,"body":"and it fixes the world for"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1025.34,"endTime":1028.99,"body":"dyslexic people, no, it doesn’t?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1028.99,"endTime":1032.44,"body":"But so, people are grabbing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1028.99,"endTime":1032.44,"body":"things and I think,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1033.16,"endTime":1035.19,"body":"so this is that"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1033.16,"endTime":1035.19,"body":"kind of chaos of change."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1035.19,"endTime":1037.68,"body":"You know, when anything"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1035.19,"endTime":1037.68,"body":"is going through a revolution,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1037.68,"endTime":1039.09,"body":"is this revolution or evolution?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1039.09,"endTime":1041.52,"body":"I'm not quite sure,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1039.09,"endTime":1041.52,"body":"I think it's a bit of both."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1041.52,"endTime":1042.94,"body":"But when we're going through"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1041.52,"endTime":1042.94,"body":"that"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1042.94,"endTime":1045.89,"body":"then there's things"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1042.94,"endTime":1045.89,"body":"sort of popping up and breaking"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1045.89,"endTime":1048.18,"body":"and I think"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1045.89,"endTime":1048.18,"body":"different organisations"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1048.18,"endTime":1049.58,"body":"are struggling"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1048.18,"endTime":1049.58,"body":"in their own ways"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1049.58,"endTime":1050.92,"body":"and we are all"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1049.58,"endTime":1050.92,"body":"struggling with it."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1050.92,"endTime":1052.18,"body":"You know, I left the BBC,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1052.18,"endTime":1053.99,"body":"the BBC are still"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1052.18,"endTime":1053.99,"body":"struggling with this"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1053.99,"endTime":1055.36,"body":"in lots of different places."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1055.36,"endTime":1057.11,"body":"Because it is,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1055.36,"endTime":1057.11,"body":"because everything is changing."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1057.11,"endTime":1058.92,"body":"It's all in flux."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1058.92,"endTime":1061.99,"body":"You know, we're learning more"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1058.92,"endTime":1061.99,"body":"about people and their needs"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1061.99,"endTime":1064.99,"body":"and needs are the really"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1061.99,"endTime":1064.99,"body":"important thing that we need."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1064.99,"endTime":1068.91,"body":"And we need everyone's needs"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1064.99,"endTime":1068.91,"body":"because I think we share needs"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1068.91,"endTime":1072.48,"body":"and needs aren't conditioned,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1068.91,"endTime":1072.48,"body":"I am dyslexic, I have ADHD"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1072.48,"endTime":1074.66,"body":"but I will share needs"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1072.48,"endTime":1074.66,"body":"with someone"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1074.66,"endTime":1078.83,"body":"who maybe speaks English as"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1074.66,"endTime":1078.83,"body":"a second language or you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1078.83,"endTime":1082.49,"body":"particularly around the way"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1078.83,"endTime":1082.49,"body":"the words are written in English"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1083.12,"endTime":1086.41,"body":"or I may share them with someone"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1083.12,"endTime":1086.41,"body":"with a lower reading ability"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1086.41,"endTime":1090.03,"body":"or a learning disability"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1086.41,"endTime":1090.03,"body":"or who is older"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1090.03,"endTime":1094.22,"body":"and may have a cognitive you"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1090.03,"endTime":1094.22,"body":"know condition around age etc."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1094.22,"endTime":1095.98,"body":"We all have a need"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1094.22,"endTime":1095.98,"body":"around language."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1095.98,"endTime":1097.73,"body":"We like it to be"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1095.98,"endTime":1097.73,"body":"human centred."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1097.73,"endTime":1101.27,"body":"We need it to be clear."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1097.73,"endTime":1101.27,"body":"We need a load of things."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1101.27,"endTime":1103.11,"body":"And it's not necessarily"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1101.27,"endTime":1103.11,"body":"about our condition"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1103.11,"endTime":1107.63,"body":"and I think we need to have"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1103.11,"endTime":1107.63,"body":"a better discussion about needs"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1107.63,"endTime":1113.41,"body":"and about everyone's needs and"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1107.63,"endTime":1113.41,"body":"stop politicising conditions."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1113.41,"endTime":1116.99,"body":"And it becomes otherness"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1113.41,"endTime":1116.99,"body":"in there"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1116.99,"endTime":1118.64,"body":"and I think Antonio"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1116.99,"endTime":1118.64,"body":"you are getting this thing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1118.64,"endTime":1120.89,"body":"where in organisations,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1118.64,"endTime":1120.89,"body":"because of that."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1121.48,"endTime":1123.34,"body":"I think there is this,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1123.34,"endTime":1126.36,"body":"it's still stuck as a"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1123.34,"endTime":1126.36,"body":"conversation around worthiness,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1126.97,"endTime":1128.77,"body":"and it's not yet seen"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1126.97,"endTime":1128.77,"body":"as worthwhile."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1129.65,"endTime":1131.43,"body":"And so, they do"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1129.65,"endTime":1131.43,"body":"these kinds of things."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1131.43,"endTime":1132.67,"body":"They're doing their toe"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1131.43,"endTime":1132.67,"body":"in the water."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1132.67,"endTime":1135.46,"body":"We're going to do a nice thing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1132.67,"endTime":1135.46,"body":"for a bunch of people."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1135.46,"endTime":1136.89,"body":"It's way more than that."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1136.89,"endTime":1140.71,"body":"This is so, so fundamentally"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1136.89,"endTime":1140.71,"body":"important and necessary"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1142.53,"endTime":1144.14,"body":"and they have not made"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1142.53,"endTime":1144.14,"body":"that leap yet."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1144.14,"endTime":1146.0,"body":"They are still"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1144.14,"endTime":1146.0,"body":"on that discovery."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1146.0,"endTime":1150.39,"body":"So, I think yes,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1146.0,"endTime":1150.39,"body":"it's a big problem."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1150.39,"endTime":1152.25,"body":"If people are still"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1150.39,"endTime":1152.25,"body":"not being engaged yet."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1152.25,"endTime":1154.87,"body":"But it is changing,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1152.25,"endTime":1154.87,"body":"and you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1154.87,"endTime":1158.09,"body":"maybe we are right in the still,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1158.09,"endTime":1160.77,"body":"you know taking"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1158.09,"endTime":1160.77,"body":"our baby steps still."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1160.77,"endTime":1163.88,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1160.77,"endTime":1163.88,"body":"You know quite possibly."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1163.88,"endTime":1166.96,"body":"They're big baby steps but"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1163.88,"endTime":1166.96,"body":"they may still be baby steps."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1167.7,"endTime":1169.6,"body":"But you bring up"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1167.7,"endTime":1169.6,"body":"such a good point"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1169.6,"endTime":1171.84,"body":"because I know that we say,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1171.84,"endTime":1173.69,"body":"and I understand"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1171.84,"endTime":1173.69,"body":"this is a best practice"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1173.69,"endTime":1175.6,"body":"and I certainly"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1173.69,"endTime":1175.6,"body":"encourage it,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1175.6,"endTime":1177.65,"body":"we always say ask"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1175.6,"endTime":1177.65,"body":"the person what they need."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1177.65,"endTime":1178.97,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1178.97,"endTime":1181.89,"body":"Ask the person what"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1178.97,"endTime":1181.89,"body":"assistive technology they need."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1181.89,"endTime":1183.49,"body":"But the thing is,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1184.03,"endTime":1186.82,"body":"the reality is we don't"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1184.03,"endTime":1186.82,"body":"always know what we need"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1186.82,"endTime":1189.71,"body":"and maybe I'm going"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1186.82,"endTime":1189.71,"body":"to tell you what I need"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1189.71,"endTime":1191.83,"body":"because that is"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1189.71,"endTime":1191.83,"body":"what somebody told me"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1191.83,"endTime":1193.21,"body":"would fix my problem"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1191.83,"endTime":1193.21,"body":"20 years ago."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1193.21,"endTime":1194.45,"body":"But..."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1194.45,"endTime":1195.8,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1194.45,"endTime":1195.8,"body":"DEBRA: Right."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1195.8,"endTime":1197.16,"body":"It's Henry Ford, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1197.16,"endTime":1198.39,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1198.39,"endTime":1199.68,"body":"It's that whole"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1198.39,"endTime":1199.68,"body":"Henry Ford thing,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1199.68,"endTime":1201.48,"body":"if you ask people"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1199.68,"endTime":1201.48,"body":"what they want,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1201.48,"endTime":1203.36,"body":"they'd say faster horses"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1201.48,"endTime":1203.36,"body":"that eat less."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1203.36,"endTime":1205.06,"body":"They wouldn't"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1203.36,"endTime":1205.06,"body":"have said cars."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1205.06,"endTime":1208.13,"body":"Right, no. They don't"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1205.06,"endTime":1208.13,"body":"even know what to say."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1208.13,"endTime":1210.09,"body":"So, I think that is"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1208.13,"endTime":1210.09,"body":"such a good point."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1210.09,"endTime":1213.96,"body":"And then also,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1210.09,"endTime":1213.96,"body":"we have others saying,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1213.96,"endTime":1216.52,"body":"well, you all don't need"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1213.96,"endTime":1216.52,"body":"assistive technology"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1216.52,"endTime":1220.62,"body":"if websites are fully accessible"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1216.52,"endTime":1220.62,"body":"and it's like, wait a minute."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1221.82,"endTime":1226.08,"body":"So, it's like once again"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1221.82,"endTime":1226.08,"body":"you have experts in the field"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1227.01,"endTime":1229.46,"body":"that don't know what,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1227.01,"endTime":1229.46,"body":"they don't understand it"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1229.46,"endTime":1231.38,"body":"and by the way,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1229.46,"endTime":1231.38,"body":"Gareth just said,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1231.38,"endTime":1235.08,"body":"which I would consider one of"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1231.38,"endTime":1235.08,"body":"the top experts in our field"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1235.08,"endTime":1236.63,"body":"and you're still"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1235.08,"endTime":1236.63,"body":"figuring it out"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1236.63,"endTime":1238.67,"body":"because we're still"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1236.63,"endTime":1238.67,"body":"figuring it out"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1239.22,"endTime":1241.95,"body":"so, anybody, can say,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1239.22,"endTime":1241.95,"body":"I have got all the answers."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1241.95,"endTime":1243.25,"body":"I'm so smart."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1243.25,"endTime":1247.75,"body":"But then also, I also hate"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1243.25,"endTime":1247.75,"body":"how I see some organisations"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1247.75,"endTime":1251.17,"body":"creating disability indexes"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1247.75,"endTime":1251.17,"body":"and the CEOs"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1251.17,"endTime":1254.95,"body":"then which we're sort of going"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1251.17,"endTime":1254.95,"body":"back to what Antonio was saying."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1255.91,"endTime":1259.25,"body":"Okay, you're making"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1255.91,"endTime":1259.25,"body":"these pledges and I notice"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1259.25,"endTime":1263.83,"body":"that you can say you're in"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1259.25,"endTime":1263.83,"body":"but in this pledge, I mean."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1263.83,"endTime":1267.15,"body":"But you have never hired people"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1263.83,"endTime":1267.15,"body":"with disabilities"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1267.15,"endTime":1268.58,"body":"your website"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1267.15,"endTime":1268.58,"body":"is not accessible,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1268.58,"endTime":1270.47,"body":"your HR systems"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1268.58,"endTime":1270.47,"body":"are not accessible."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1270.47,"endTime":1274.36,"body":"I don't know how you"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1270.47,"endTime":1274.36,"body":"can be in an index"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1275.01,"endTime":1276.83,"body":"and not do all of"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1275.01,"endTime":1276.83,"body":"those things and so,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1276.83,"endTime":1280.01,"body":"I understand that corporations"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1276.83,"endTime":1280.01,"body":"are trying to figure this out"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1280.01,"endTime":1282.74,"body":"and trying to get us"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1280.01,"endTime":1282.74,"body":"to stop soon I get all that"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1282.74,"endTime":1285.84,"body":"but I think are on to something"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1282.74,"endTime":1285.84,"body":"really important"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1285.84,"endTime":1288.24,"body":"Gareth and I know"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1285.84,"endTime":1288.24,"body":"that people would say to me,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1289.24,"endTime":1290.48,"body":"who is doing it right."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1290.48,"endTime":1292.69,"body":"I'm not saying"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1290.48,"endTime":1292.69,"body":"anybody's got it nailed."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1292.69,"endTime":1296.33,"body":"But I also use the BBC"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1292.69,"endTime":1296.33,"body":"as an example. I also use ATOS."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1296.33,"endTime":1300.32,"body":"ATOS had a weird reputation of"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1296.33,"endTime":1300.32,"body":"disability inclusion in the UK"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1301.27,"endTime":1304.07,"body":"but the work that Neil"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1301.27,"endTime":1304.07,"body":"and his team have done."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1305.48,"endTime":1307.45,"body":"It has been so valuable"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1305.48,"endTime":1307.45,"body":"to that brand"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1307.45,"endTime":1311.08,"body":"whether or not that brand really"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1307.45,"endTime":1311.08,"body":"gets what Neil and Antonio"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1311.08,"endTime":1315.32,"body":"and their teams have done."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1311.08,"endTime":1315.32,"body":"I don't know but it's amazing"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1315.32,"endTime":1318.25,"body":"what people can do internally"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1315.32,"endTime":1318.25,"body":"to make a difference."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1319.23,"endTime":1320.66,"body":"Absolutely. I completely agree,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1320.66,"endTime":1322.71,"body":"there's a couple things"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1320.66,"endTime":1322.71,"body":"in there quite important."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1322.71,"endTime":1325.72,"body":"What you said about the CEOs"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1322.71,"endTime":1325.72,"body":"is really,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1325.72,"endTime":1327.619,"body":"really important"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1325.72,"endTime":1327.619,"body":"because in some ways,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1328.3,"endTime":1329.89,"body":"that is a really important"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1328.3,"endTime":1329.89,"body":"first step"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1329.89,"endTime":1332.16,"body":"because culture"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1329.89,"endTime":1332.16,"body":"comes from the top."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1332.16,"endTime":1333.75,"body":"It's defined by the top."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1333.75,"endTime":1335.45,"body":"The exec board defines"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1333.75,"endTime":1335.45,"body":"the culture"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1335.45,"endTime":1337.25,"body":"of the entire organisation"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1337.25,"endTime":1340.5,"body":"and the rest of the organisation"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1337.25,"endTime":1340.5,"body":"look to them to how they behave."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1341.09,"endTime":1343.08,"body":"So, if you have a president"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1341.09,"endTime":1343.08,"body":"who behaves"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1343.08,"endTime":1347.1,"body":"appallingly some of the people"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1343.08,"endTime":1347.1,"body":"will take that as a great,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1347.1,"endTime":1348.87,"body":"I can behave like"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1347.1,"endTime":1348.87,"body":"the president"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1348.87,"endTime":1351.22,"body":"because that is"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1348.87,"endTime":1351.22,"body":"the way it works."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1351.22,"endTime":1353.78,"body":"And I can be appalling too"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1351.22,"endTime":1353.78,"body":"because that is okay,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1353.78,"endTime":1355.87,"body":"the person at the top has"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1353.78,"endTime":1355.87,"body":"told me to do, I can do that."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1355.87,"endTime":1358.63,"body":"They have given me"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1355.87,"endTime":1358.63,"body":"permission through example"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1358.63,"endTime":1360.55,"body":"but I think"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1358.63,"endTime":1360.55,"body":"what they have done"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1360.55,"endTime":1362.4,"body":"which is really important"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1360.55,"endTime":1362.4,"body":"is at the top,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1362.4,"endTime":1364.34,"body":"they've said"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1362.4,"endTime":1364.34,"body":"what they want to happen"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1365.45,"endTime":1367.49,"body":"then the organisation"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1365.45,"endTime":1367.49,"body":"needs to figure out"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1367.49,"endTime":1369.76,"body":"how it's going"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1367.49,"endTime":1369.76,"body":"to make that happen"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1370.35,"endTime":1372.23,"body":"and they may not have"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1370.35,"endTime":1372.23,"body":"got to that point"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1372.23,"endTime":1375.67,"body":"of actually trying to tackle"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1372.23,"endTime":1375.67,"body":"the how question properly"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1375.67,"endTime":1379.68,"body":"because there are many"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1375.67,"endTime":1379.68,"body":"how’s, within this."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1379.68,"endTime":1384.0,"body":"So, how do we deal with all"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1379.68,"endTime":1384.0,"body":"of the facets within this"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1384.0,"endTime":1386.36,"body":"and this is fundamental"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1384.0,"endTime":1386.36,"body":"change management"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1386.36,"endTime":1387.96,"body":"across an organisation."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1389.44,"endTime":1390.72,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1390.72,"endTime":1392.59,"body":"And I totally agree"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1390.72,"endTime":1392.59,"body":"with what you're saying"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1392.59,"endTime":1394.66,"body":"but this is where I get angry,"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1394.66,"endTime":1397.33,"body":"where I'm getting angry"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1394.66,"endTime":1397.33,"body":"is where they think"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1397.33,"endTime":1399.83,"body":"because they signed some pledge"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1397.33,"endTime":1399.83,"body":"that they are done"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1400.67,"endTime":1405.02,"body":"and that really, really, really"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1400.67,"endTime":1405.02,"body":"is annoying our community."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":1405.02,"endTime":1406.36,"body":"So, okay. I'm leaving now."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1406.36,"endTime":1407.64,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1407.64,"endTime":1410.67,"body":"I think they are the ones"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1407.64,"endTime":1410.67,"body":"we need to sit with"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1410.67,"endTime":1415.17,"body":"and say okay you have now"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1410.67,"endTime":1415.17,"body":"put your cards on the table."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1415.17,"endTime":1419.26,"body":"You have signed a thing."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1415.17,"endTime":1419.26,"body":"Let's have a discussion now"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1419.26,"endTime":1420.84,"body":"about how we're going"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1419.26,"endTime":1420.84,"body":"to implement this."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1420.84,"endTime":1425.03,"body":"How long is this going to take?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1420.84,"endTime":1425.03,"body":"What is in our gift to do now."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1425.03,"endTime":1428.03,"body":"What can we change today?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1425.03,"endTime":1428.03,"body":"Let's change one thing."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1428.03,"endTime":1429.9,"body":"Let's pick a thing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1428.03,"endTime":1429.9,"body":"that we can do."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1429.9,"endTime":1432.05,"body":"We change it across"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1429.9,"endTime":1432.05,"body":"the organisation."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1432.05,"endTime":1433.61,"body":"We have a look"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1432.05,"endTime":1433.61,"body":"and see how well that went"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1433.61,"endTime":1435.41,"body":"and bring in another thing,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1435.41,"endTime":1439.84,"body":"you know and deal with this"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1435.41,"endTime":1439.84,"body":"because they just started out."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1439.84,"endTime":1443.46,"body":"It's what we did to BBC"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1439.84,"endTime":1443.46,"body":"and what it still has to do"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1443.46,"endTime":1447.74,"body":"because you know technology"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1443.46,"endTime":1447.74,"body":"is continuously changing."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1447.74,"endTime":1450.59,"body":"We are finding out more"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1447.74,"endTime":1450.59,"body":"about people all the time"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1450.59,"endTime":1453.16,"body":"because people are continuously"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1450.59,"endTime":1453.16,"body":"teaching us"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1453.79,"endTime":1455.64,"body":"about the barriers"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1453.79,"endTime":1455.64,"body":"that they experience,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1455.64,"endTime":1457.26,"body":"about their lived experiences,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1457.26,"endTime":1461.76,"body":"we are becoming more,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1457.26,"endTime":1461.76,"body":"you know, we have more insight,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1461.76,"endTime":1463.61,"body":"but we still don't fully"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1461.76,"endTime":1463.61,"body":"know this"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1463.61,"endTime":1466.13,"body":"because people are rich"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1463.61,"endTime":1466.13,"body":"and wonderful things."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1466.13,"endTime":1468.87,"body":"You know, rich in experience"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1466.13,"endTime":1468.87,"body":"and rich in culture"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1468.87,"endTime":1473.39,"body":"and rich in so many,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1468.87,"endTime":1473.39,"body":"you know different ways and we,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1473.39,"endTime":1475.98,"body":"as a, you know"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1473.39,"endTime":1475.98,"body":"sort of an industry,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1477.06,"endTime":1479.43,"body":"are trying to bring"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1477.06,"endTime":1479.43,"body":"these two things together"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1479.43,"endTime":1481.39,"body":"and you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1479.43,"endTime":1481.39,"body":"one we are exploring,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1481.39,"endTime":1483.06,"body":"the other is continuously"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1481.39,"endTime":1483.06,"body":"moving."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1483.06,"endTime":1487.03,"body":"So, it kind of fits in places"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1483.06,"endTime":1487.03,"body":"and falls apart in others."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1487.03,"endTime":1488.679,"body":"But that is"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1487.03,"endTime":1488.679,"body":"the nature of things."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1489.74,"endTime":1491.05,"body":"But I think"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1489.74,"endTime":1491.05,"body":"you're absolutely right."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1491.05,"endTime":1492.84,"body":"I think you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1491.05,"endTime":1492.84,"body":"also we want change."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1492.84,"endTime":1494.59,"body":"We do want to see"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1492.84,"endTime":1494.59,"body":"it happen quickly"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1495.33,"endTime":1497.83,"body":"and I think"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1495.33,"endTime":1497.83,"body":"there are some times,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1498.54,"endTime":1501.73,"body":"there are organisations"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1498.54,"endTime":1501.73,"body":"that struggle"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1501.73,"endTime":1503.82,"body":"with moving to those next steps"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1503.82,"endTime":1505.79,"body":"because they just"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1503.82,"endTime":1505.79,"body":"don't know how,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1505.79,"endTime":1509.25,"body":"and no one is helping them"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1505.79,"endTime":1509.25,"body":"explore those words."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1509.25,"endTime":1510.52,"body":"And there are"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1509.25,"endTime":1510.52,"body":"other organisations"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1510.52,"endTime":1515.27,"body":"who desperately want to do it"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1510.52,"endTime":1515.27,"body":"but the actual products"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1515.27,"endTime":1519.12,"body":"that they have stop them"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1515.27,"endTime":1519.12,"body":"from changing."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1519.12,"endTime":1520.79,"body":"It's not in their gift,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1519.12,"endTime":1520.79,"body":"you know."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1520.79,"endTime":1524.25,"body":"There's a, for many, many years"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1524.25,"endTime":1528.49,"body":"I'm defending"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1524.25,"endTime":1528.49,"body":"another broadcaster in the UK"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1528.49,"endTime":1529.96,"body":"who also had a set top box"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1529.96,"endTime":1532.009,"body":"who also had three letters"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1529.96,"endTime":1532.009,"body":"in their name,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1532.81,"endTime":1534.86,"body":"who are not always seen to be,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1534.86,"endTime":1539.36,"body":"you know in the best"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1534.86,"endTime":1539.36,"body":"relationship with the BBC"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1540.04,"endTime":1542.54,"body":"but we spent a lot of time"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1540.04,"endTime":1542.54,"body":"defending them"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1542.54,"endTime":1545.42,"body":"sometimes with off com"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1542.54,"endTime":1545.42,"body":"and other organisations"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1545.42,"endTime":1547.76,"body":"because people were where are"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1545.42,"endTime":1547.76,"body":"the closed captions"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1547.76,"endTime":1551.05,"body":"on their set top box"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1547.76,"endTime":1551.05,"body":"and I kept saying back,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1551.58,"endTime":1553.8,"body":"when they were asking well,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1551.58,"endTime":1553.8,"body":"how have you done it on iPlayer"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1553.8,"endTime":1555.77,"body":"and why is it not working on"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1553.8,"endTime":1555.77,"body":"their system and I was saying,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1555.77,"endTime":1558.86,"body":"because we built ours"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1555.77,"endTime":1558.86,"body":"ten years after them."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1559.58,"endTime":1561.31,"body":"And this stuff been invented,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1561.31,"endTime":1563.25,"body":"and it had not been"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1561.31,"endTime":1563.25,"body":"invented then."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1563.25,"endTime":1566.65,"body":"And so, you're dealing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1563.25,"endTime":1566.65,"body":"with a system that's so old"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1566.65,"endTime":1568.25,"body":"we can't find"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1566.65,"endTime":1568.25,"body":"a way of doing it."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1569.05,"endTime":1570.95,"body":"They have huge"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1569.05,"endTime":1570.95,"body":"technological debt,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1570.95,"endTime":1574.91,"body":"and you can't escape"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1570.95,"endTime":1574.91,"body":"that sometimes"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1574.91,"endTime":1577.65,"body":"without sort of completely"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1574.91,"endTime":1577.65,"body":"breaking the cycle."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1578.51,"endTime":1581.44,"body":"So, that is really,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1578.51,"endTime":1581.44,"body":"really expensive."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1582.15,"endTime":1586.47,"body":"That is throw away"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1582.15,"endTime":1586.47,"body":"all the set top boxes,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1586.47,"endTime":1589.01,"body":"your five million customers,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1589.01,"endTime":1591.05,"body":"ask them all to put them"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1589.01,"endTime":1591.05,"body":"in the recycling"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1591.05,"endTime":1592.46,"body":"and we'll send you"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1591.05,"endTime":1592.46,"body":"some new ones out."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1592.46,"endTime":1594.18,"body":"Oh, by the way"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1592.46,"endTime":1594.18,"body":"we are now bankrupt."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1594.18,"endTime":1596.26,"body":"You can't do, you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1594.18,"endTime":1596.26,"body":"so an organisation"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1596.26,"endTime":1600.39,"body":"has to try and workout within"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1596.26,"endTime":1600.39,"body":"its evolution of its products"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1600.39,"endTime":1602.49,"body":"as what is the point"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1600.39,"endTime":1602.49,"body":"that we replace those"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1603.15,"endTime":1605.47,"body":"and that is the point"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1603.15,"endTime":1605.47,"body":"that we then"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1606.04,"endTime":1608.88,"body":"which British Telecom have done"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1606.04,"endTime":1608.88,"body":"by moving into You View"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1608.88,"endTime":1612.28,"body":"and suddenly gone"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1608.88,"endTime":1612.28,"body":"from you know set top boxes"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1612.28,"endTime":1615.31,"body":"and their classic BT"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1612.28,"endTime":1615.31,"body":"set top boxes which had very,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1615.31,"endTime":1618.12,"body":"very little around accessibility"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1615.31,"endTime":1618.12,"body":"into it to a platform"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1618.12,"endTime":1620.61,"body":"that has loads"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1618.12,"endTime":1620.61,"body":"of accessibility features."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1620.61,"endTime":1623.26,"body":"And so, they were able"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1620.61,"endTime":1623.26,"body":"to do that, but it took years."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1624.14,"endTime":1626.08,"body":"It took years for them"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1624.14,"endTime":1626.08,"body":"to make those switches."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1626.08,"endTime":1629.37,"body":"So sometimes, you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1626.08,"endTime":1629.37,"body":"we see these pledges"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1629.37,"endTime":1631.04,"body":"and we want to see results"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1631.04,"endTime":1635.71,"body":"and I think we should, we should"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1631.04,"endTime":1635.71,"body":"be holding people to account."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1636.45,"endTime":1638.45,"body":"Absolutely, too right."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1636.45,"endTime":1638.45,"body":"You have said it."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1639.73,"endTime":1641.04,"body":"Go back a year later and say,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1641.04,"endTime":1642.34,"body":"you've so you've said"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1641.04,"endTime":1642.34,"body":"this thing last year."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1642.34,"endTime":1643.94,"body":"What did you do?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1642.34,"endTime":1643.94,"body":"What achieved?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1644.89,"endTime":1648.64,"body":"How did you move the dial,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1644.89,"endTime":1648.64,"body":"and we want to see progress?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1650.19,"endTime":1652.06,"body":"And maybe organisations"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1650.19,"endTime":1652.06,"body":"need to be better"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1652.06,"endTime":1653.91,"body":"at talking about"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1652.06,"endTime":1653.91,"body":"what they are doing."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1655.53,"endTime":1657.85,"body":"Yeah. Without spin."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1659.09,"endTime":1661.5,"body":"I think the challenge"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1659.09,"endTime":1661.5,"body":"is to get it without the spin"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1661.5,"endTime":1666.24,"body":"because I quite often"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1661.5,"endTime":1666.24,"body":"find myself"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1666.24,"endTime":1670.95,"body":"feeling after"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1666.24,"endTime":1670.95,"body":"I have been to an event"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1670.95,"endTime":1672.93,"body":"or I have contributed"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1670.95,"endTime":1672.93,"body":"to an article"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1672.93,"endTime":1680.46,"body":"that actually that I have not"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1672.93,"endTime":1680.46,"body":"lifted my colleagues up more"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1680.46,"endTime":1683.55,"body":"because I've said, well,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1680.46,"endTime":1683.55,"body":"I have named other organisations"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1683.55,"endTime":1685.34,"body":"that are doing a good job"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1685.34,"endTime":1688.33,"body":"and then I think, well I do care"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1685.34,"endTime":1688.33,"body":"what my team have done"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1688.33,"endTime":1693.04,"body":"but also I want to be"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1688.33,"endTime":1693.04,"body":"more measured and truthful"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1693.04,"endTime":1697.85,"body":"and not turn it into an exercise"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1693.04,"endTime":1697.85,"body":"in marketing what we are doing"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1697.85,"endTime":1702.13,"body":"but really about"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1697.85,"endTime":1702.13,"body":"trying to say you know say"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1702.13,"endTime":1704.88,"body":"where people are doing"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1702.13,"endTime":1704.88,"body":"good things"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1704.88,"endTime":1707.09,"body":"be part of a wider community"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1707.09,"endTime":1708.989,"body":"because I think"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1707.09,"endTime":1708.989,"body":"there is this tendency"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1709.49,"endTime":1713.89,"body":"when we have"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1709.49,"endTime":1713.89,"body":"these CEO pledges."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1713.89,"endTime":1718.25,"body":"Suddenly everybody is sort"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1713.89,"endTime":1718.25,"body":"of showing things up, making it."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1718.25,"endTime":1721.23,"body":"It's like you know"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1718.25,"endTime":1721.23,"body":"the queen thinks everything"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1721.23,"endTime":1725.06,"body":"smells of fresh paint you know"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1721.23,"endTime":1725.06,"body":"because when she comes to visit,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1725.06,"endTime":1727.13,"body":"everyone has just quickly"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1725.06,"endTime":1727.13,"body":"painted all the fences,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1727.13,"endTime":1730.22,"body":"you know so, when the CEO comes,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1727.13,"endTime":1730.22,"body":"it's quick, you know,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1730.22,"endTime":1732.11,"body":"hide all of the dirt"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1730.22,"endTime":1732.11,"body":"under the carpet"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1732.11,"endTime":1734.57,"body":"and the big lumpy"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1732.11,"endTime":1734.57,"body":"accessibility carpet"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1734.57,"endTime":1737.48,"body":"with all of the accessibility"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1734.57,"endTime":1737.48,"body":"errors underneath it."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1737.48,"endTime":1739.08,"body":"Nothing to see here."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1740.68,"endTime":1746.52,"body":"Wonderful and that"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1740.68,"endTime":1746.52,"body":"has this problematic effect"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1746.52,"endTime":1749.65,"body":"and I have actually heard"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1746.52,"endTime":1749.65,"body":"that some of the people"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1749.65,"endTime":1750.88,"body":"working in some of the teams"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1750.88,"endTime":1754.64,"body":"that these organisations"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1750.88,"endTime":1754.64,"body":"have scored in these indexes"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1754.64,"endTime":1755.91,"body":"have suddenly had"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1754.64,"endTime":1755.91,"body":"their budget cut"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1755.91,"endTime":1757.66,"body":"because there's"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":1755.91,"endTime":1757.66,"body":"nothing left to do."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1759.6,"endTime":1762.51,"body":"Yeah, because the data is wrong."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1763.45,"endTime":1766.01,"body":"And this is one of the problems"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1763.45,"endTime":1766.01,"body":"is the data"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1766.01,"endTime":1768.4,"body":"can sometimes"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1766.01,"endTime":1768.4,"body":"be incredibly selective"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1768.94,"endTime":1772.24,"body":"as to what it thinks"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1768.94,"endTime":1772.24,"body":"is a good score and we had this."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1773.19,"endTime":1778.22,"body":"I mean, you know, you all know"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1773.19,"endTime":1778.22,"body":"me and I do like a side project."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1778.22,"endTime":1783.07,"body":"And I did one about four"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1778.22,"endTime":1783.07,"body":"or five years ago."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1783.07,"endTime":1786.08,"body":"So, at the time,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1783.07,"endTime":1786.08,"body":"probably about four years ago"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1786.08,"endTime":1788.67,"body":"June Sarpong joined the BBC"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1788.67,"endTime":1790.98,"body":"to create the creative"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1788.67,"endTime":1790.98,"body":"diversity team"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1790.98,"endTime":1792.67,"body":"and she has made"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1790.98,"endTime":1792.67,"body":"a massive impact"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1792.67,"endTime":1795.4,"body":"in the organisation"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1792.67,"endTime":1795.4,"body":"around betrayal"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1795.4,"endTime":1798.8,"body":"and bringing diversity"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1795.4,"endTime":1798.8,"body":"to the top table."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1798.8,"endTime":1800.18,"body":"You know?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1798.8,"endTime":1800.18,"body":"It's the first time"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1800.18,"endTime":1803.3,"body":"that there is a senior executive"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1800.18,"endTime":1803.3,"body":"for diversity."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1803.3,"endTime":1805.09,"body":"They've always been"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1803.3,"endTime":1805.09,"body":"on the lower level."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1805.09,"endTime":1806.36,"body":"There was a head of diversity."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1806.36,"endTime":1810.49,"body":"There was never a director"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1806.36,"endTime":1810.49,"body":"in a level of that"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1810.49,"endTime":1812.27,"body":"and she did that"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1810.49,"endTime":1812.27,"body":"and it was brilliant,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1812.27,"endTime":1813.47,"body":"and she made huge changes."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1813.47,"endTime":1817.16,"body":"But I met her,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1813.47,"endTime":1817.16,"body":"shortly after an event,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1817.16,"endTime":1818.9,"body":"a diversity event at the BBC"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1819.64,"endTime":1822.54,"body":"and where they were showing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1819.64,"endTime":1822.54,"body":"all of the disability portrayal"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1822.54,"endTime":1825.15,"body":"within their programmes"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1822.54,"endTime":1825.15,"body":"and children's is phenomenal."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1825.15,"endTime":1828.69,"body":"Children's is exemplary"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1825.15,"endTime":1828.69,"body":"in the way that it does it."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1829.32,"endTime":1832.95,"body":"And news is pretty good"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1829.32,"endTime":1832.95,"body":"and their factual is very good."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1832.95,"endTime":1835.01,"body":"But four or five years ago,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1835.01,"endTime":1839.9,"body":"drama, I was saying thinking"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1835.01,"endTime":1839.9,"body":"I used to make TV trails,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1839.9,"endTime":1843.23,"body":"I used to work on TV"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1839.9,"endTime":1843.23,"body":"output at the BBC,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1843.23,"endTime":1845.06,"body":"with a lot of programme"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1843.23,"endTime":1845.06,"body":"makers etc."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1845.71,"endTime":1848.72,"body":"And I just thought, well,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1845.71,"endTime":1848.72,"body":"don't think it's changed"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1848.72,"endTime":1851.24,"body":"in the 15 plus years"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1848.72,"endTime":1851.24,"body":"I have been here."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1851.24,"endTime":1852.89,"body":"I think it's the same."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1852.89,"endTime":1856.28,"body":"And so, I literally went off"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1852.89,"endTime":1856.28,"body":"and did a side project."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1856.28,"endTime":1858.35,"body":"And the methodology"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1856.28,"endTime":1858.35,"body":"was really,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1858.35,"endTime":1861.65,"body":"really simple is that"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1858.35,"endTime":1861.65,"body":"I looked on iPlayer"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1861.65,"endTime":1863.05,"body":"and I looked at"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1861.65,"endTime":1863.05,"body":"all of the dramas"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1863.05,"endTime":1866.39,"body":"that had been commissioned"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1863.05,"endTime":1866.39,"body":"in the last two years"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1866.39,"endTime":1868.37,"body":"that were available on iPlayer"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1868.37,"endTime":1871.96,"body":"and then I was able to then"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1868.37,"endTime":1871.96,"body":"look at all of the main cast"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1872.51,"endTime":1876.76,"body":"and find all of the disabled"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1872.51,"endTime":1876.76,"body":"actors because they are again,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1877.28,"endTime":1879.629,"body":"Equity there is groups"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1877.28,"endTime":1879.629,"body":"where people are listed,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1880.25,"endTime":1884.22,"body":"there is a list, there was less"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1880.25,"endTime":1884.22,"body":"than 100 professional actors"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1884.22,"endTime":1885.82,"body":"in the UK at the time."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1886.41,"endTime":1888.23,"body":"And so, I could find them"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1886.41,"endTime":1888.23,"body":"all really easy,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1888.23,"endTime":1890.84,"body":"cross referenced it and then"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1888.23,"endTime":1890.84,"body":"I went back in the Archive,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1890.84,"endTime":1893.34,"body":"and I had a look back 20 years"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1890.84,"endTime":1893.34,"body":"and I had a look back,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1893.34,"endTime":1895.14,"body":"it was 30 years"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1895.14,"endTime":1896.93,"body":"and I think it might have been"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1895.14,"endTime":1896.93,"body":"a bit further than that."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1896.93,"endTime":1899.02,"body":"But it was quite a long,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1896.93,"endTime":1899.02,"body":"I went right back,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1899.02,"endTime":1902.49,"body":"and I went, I want to know"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1899.02,"endTime":1902.49,"body":"what it was like then"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1902.49,"endTime":1904.87,"body":"and I discovered"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1902.49,"endTime":1904.87,"body":"that 30 years previous,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1905.49,"endTime":1909.18,"body":"the BBC proportionally had"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1905.49,"endTime":1909.18,"body":"more disabled actors on it"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1909.18,"endTime":1910.829,"body":"within its drama"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1909.18,"endTime":1910.829,"body":"than it did now."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1911.63,"endTime":1912.98,"body":"I mean it made is a lot less"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1912.98,"endTime":1917.32,"body":"because it only had like"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1912.98,"endTime":1917.32,"body":"one TV channel and that was it."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1917.32,"endTime":1918.6,"body":"And it was back in the days"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1918.6,"endTime":1921.16,"body":"where still shifting"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1918.6,"endTime":1921.16,"body":"from black and white, I think."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1922.02,"endTime":1923.94,"body":"I think I went right back"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1922.02,"endTime":1923.94,"body":"to the 1960s,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1923.94,"endTime":1926.8,"body":"so probably even further."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1923.94,"endTime":1926.8,"body":"About 40 or 50 years back."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1928.13,"endTime":1931.45,"body":"But the reason why is"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1928.13,"endTime":1931.45,"body":"that there were actors"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1931.45,"endTime":1934.16,"body":"who had come out"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1931.45,"endTime":1934.16,"body":"of World War II"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1934.16,"endTime":1936.059,"body":"and they'd gone back"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1934.16,"endTime":1936.059,"body":"into acting again"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1936.57,"endTime":1939.14,"body":"and they were blind"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1936.57,"endTime":1939.14,"body":"or had an arm missing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1939.14,"endTime":1941.52,"body":"and there were things,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1939.14,"endTime":1941.52,"body":"they were injured."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1941.52,"endTime":1944.16,"body":"And so, they were just actors."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1944.16,"endTime":1947.31,"body":"There was a wonderful actor"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1944.16,"endTime":1947.31,"body":"called Esmond Knight,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1947.97,"endTime":1951.2,"body":"who passed quite"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1947.97,"endTime":1951.2,"body":"a few years ago."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1952.44,"endTime":1956.06,"body":"And he was, he lost his eyesight"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1952.44,"endTime":1956.06,"body":"in the Battle with the Bismark,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1956.06,"endTime":1957.45,"body":"the real one."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1957.45,"endTime":1959.33,"body":"He was on one of the ships"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1957.45,"endTime":1959.33,"body":"that was fighting."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1959.33,"endTime":1962.31,"body":"He was an officer"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1959.33,"endTime":1962.31,"body":"and before the war"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1962.31,"endTime":1964.39,"body":"he was being"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1962.31,"endTime":1964.39,"body":"a classically trained actor"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1964.39,"endTime":1966.71,"body":"and he was blinded"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1964.39,"endTime":1966.71,"body":"in that battle"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1966.71,"endTime":1968.97,"body":"and interestingly enough,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1966.71,"endTime":1968.97,"body":"in the file,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1968.97,"endTime":1971.88,"body":"The Battle of the Bismark,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1968.97,"endTime":1971.88,"body":"he plays one of the captains,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1971.88,"endTime":1975.01,"body":"he plays the captain of the ship"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1971.88,"endTime":1975.01,"body":"that he lost his eyesight in."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1975.01,"endTime":1979.45,"body":"I mean, talk about dealing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1975.01,"endTime":1979.45,"body":"with your past traumas"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1979.45,"endTime":1980.67,"body":"in an incredible way."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1980.67,"endTime":1983.63,"body":"But he was in Laurence Olivier's"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1980.67,"endTime":1983.63,"body":"Shakespearean films,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1983.63,"endTime":1985.22,"body":"all of them,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1983.63,"endTime":1985.22,"body":"playing sighted roles."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1985.22,"endTime":1986.42,"body":"He was in I, Claudius."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1986.42,"endTime":1988.79,"body":"He was in some"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1986.42,"endTime":1988.79,"body":"massive productions,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1988.79,"endTime":1991.53,"body":"always playing sighted roles."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1988.79,"endTime":1991.53,"body":"I actually had the pleasure"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1991.53,"endTime":1994.9,"body":"once of seeing him in Moby Dick"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1991.53,"endTime":1994.9,"body":"on stage in the 1980's."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1994.9,"endTime":1997.63,"body":"I remember my dad saying to me"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1994.9,"endTime":1997.63,"body":"that actor there is blind."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1997.63,"endTime":1998.85,"body":"He can't see"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1997.63,"endTime":1998.85,"body":"the other actors."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1998.85,"endTime":2001.04,"body":"And yet he was walking around."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":1998.85,"endTime":2001.04,"body":"His eyeline was perfect."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2001.04,"endTime":2002.79,"body":"He was picking up drinks"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2001.04,"endTime":2002.79,"body":"from tables"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2002.79,"endTime":2005.99,"body":"because everything was set out."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2002.79,"endTime":2005.99,"body":"It was illusion. He is an actor."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2007.07,"endTime":2010.73,"body":"They are drawing us"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2007.07,"endTime":2010.73,"body":"into a world and fooling us."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2010.73,"endTime":2013.24,"body":"He was cripping down."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2010.73,"endTime":2013.24,"body":"I think is the phrase."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":2013.24,"endTime":2014.48,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2014.48,"endTime":2015.7,"body":"Fantastic actor."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2015.7,"endTime":2016.93,"body":"He was all over the place."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2016.93,"endTime":2018.58,"body":"And I went around"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2016.93,"endTime":2018.58,"body":"and found these actors,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2018.58,"endTime":2022.08,"body":"particularly Esmond and he"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2018.58,"endTime":2022.08,"body":"appeared in so many BBC dramas,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2022.08,"endTime":2024.4,"body":"the numbers were right up."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2025.44,"endTime":2027.33,"body":"I was like,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2025.44,"endTime":2027.33,"body":"how are we doing this."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2027.84,"endTime":2029.44,"body":"What didn't we not learn?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2030.21,"endTime":2032.3,"body":"Why did we not learn"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2030.21,"endTime":2032.3,"body":"at that point?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2032.3,"endTime":2035.67,"body":"Why did it not carry on?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2032.3,"endTime":2035.67,"body":"What was the problem,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2035.67,"endTime":2039.4,"body":"culturally that stopped us"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2035.67,"endTime":2039.4,"body":"building on that?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2041.46,"endTime":2045.63,"body":"And I presented the data"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2041.46,"endTime":2045.63,"body":"and numbers don't lie, you know."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2045.63,"endTime":2047.13,"body":"And I presented"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2045.63,"endTime":2047.13,"body":"the data to June,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2047.13,"endTime":2048.54,"body":"and I presented the data"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2047.13,"endTime":2048.54,"body":"to other people,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2048.54,"endTime":2051.73,"body":"and I said just go."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2048.54,"endTime":2051.73,"body":"This needs to change."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2051.73,"endTime":2055.73,"body":"This is wrong."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2051.73,"endTime":2055.73,"body":"I don't know whether I had any."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2055.73,"endTime":2057.35,"body":"I think June was"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2055.73,"endTime":2057.35,"body":"on that path anyway."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2057.35,"endTime":2059.63,"body":"June built this amazing team"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2059.63,"endTime":2064.35,"body":"and they have done"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2059.63,"endTime":2064.35,"body":"wonderful things and you know;"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2064.35,"endTime":2066.05,"body":"I think she just found"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2064.35,"endTime":2066.05,"body":"that fascinating"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2066.05,"endTime":2067.96,"body":"and sort of"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2066.05,"endTime":2067.96,"body":"as an interesting insight."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2067.96,"endTime":2070.09,"body":"But it was one of those things"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2070.09,"endTime":2073.51,"body":"where you kind of need"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2070.09,"endTime":2073.51,"body":"to understand that you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2073.51,"endTime":2078.47,"body":"our needs to reflect life"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2073.51,"endTime":2078.47,"body":"because life then reflects art."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2078.47,"endTime":2082.24,"body":"So, the behaviours, the things"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2078.47,"endTime":2082.24,"body":"that we see on our screens."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2082.24,"endTime":2084.94,"body":"The behaviours that are"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2082.24,"endTime":2084.94,"body":"taught to us we reflect back."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2086.11,"endTime":2091.06,"body":"So, if people are invisible"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2086.11,"endTime":2091.06,"body":"in dramas,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2091.06,"endTime":2094.21,"body":"in you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2091.06,"endTime":2094.21,"body":"in newsrooms in sorts of stuff"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2094.21,"endTime":2096.02,"body":"they become invisible"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2094.21,"endTime":2096.02,"body":"in life as well"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2096.02,"endTime":2099.72,"body":"because a, they don't think"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2096.02,"endTime":2099.72,"body":"that they can do the things,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2099.72,"endTime":2103.17,"body":"you know, it's that"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2099.72,"endTime":2103.17,"body":"unconscious bias thing."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2103.17,"endTime":2107.17,"body":"It becomes, it reinforces all of"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2103.17,"endTime":2107.17,"body":"the stigma and the stereotypes,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2107.77,"endTime":2112.22,"body":"and the issues"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2107.77,"endTime":2112.22,"body":"and it needs to change."},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2113.22,"endTime":2114.82,"body":"So that just..."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2114.82,"endTime":2117.22,"body":"I have gone off"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2114.82,"endTime":2117.22,"body":"on a massive tangent, I'm sorry."},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2118.65,"endTime":2121.59,"body":"Gareth, that just brought me"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2121.59,"endTime":2125.26,"body":"to we have been talking here"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2121.59,"endTime":2125.26,"body":"now, myself and Neil"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2125.26,"endTime":2129.72,"body":"we work at the enterprise"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2125.26,"endTime":2129.72,"body":"Debra working consultancy also,"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2130.93,"endTime":2136.97,"body":"how can we learn from"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2130.93,"endTime":2136.97,"body":"that story and avoid mistake."},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2136.97,"endTime":2138.82,"body":"Now, we are going"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2136.97,"endTime":2138.82,"body":"to fix accessibility,"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2138.82,"endTime":2141.34,"body":"maybe some of the things"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2138.82,"endTime":2141.34,"body":"we are doing today"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2141.34,"endTime":2143.13,"body":"they were fixed"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2141.34,"endTime":2143.13,"body":"five years ago."},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2144.62,"endTime":2146.94,"body":"What can we learn"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2144.62,"endTime":2146.94,"body":"from that story"},{"speaker":"ANTONIO","startTime":2146.94,"endTime":2148.62,"body":"that you just ended telling us?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2149.7,"endTime":2151.29,"body":"We do, and we go"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2149.7,"endTime":2151.29,"body":"and fix these things"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2151.29,"endTime":2153.39,"body":"and then we don't go"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2151.29,"endTime":2153.39,"body":"and hire someone."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2154.43,"endTime":2155.63,"body":"You've got to see it through."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2155.63,"endTime":2159.22,"body":"There are people out there"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2155.63,"endTime":2159.22,"body":"with skills and capabilities"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2159.22,"endTime":2161.94,"body":"and you know and this was one of"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2159.22,"endTime":2161.94,"body":"those things that you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2161.94,"endTime":2165.37,"body":"I worked with yourselves"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2161.94,"endTime":2165.37,"body":"previously at the BBC"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2165.37,"endTime":2170.07,"body":"and still working with ATOS"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2165.37,"endTime":2170.07,"body":"around this is that whole issue"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2170.07,"endTime":2172.76,"body":"as an organisation that wants"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2170.07,"endTime":2172.76,"body":"to employ more disabled people"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2172.76,"endTime":2175.57,"body":"and I think,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2172.76,"endTime":2175.57,"body":"is it about 8% of the staff"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2175.57,"endTime":2178.8,"body":"roughly of a disability,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2175.57,"endTime":2178.8,"body":"something roundabout there."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2178.8,"endTime":2181.65,"body":"I remember the numbers"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2178.8,"endTime":2181.65,"body":"were about 8 or 9%"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2181.65,"endTime":2183.45,"body":"and they had a target"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2181.65,"endTime":2183.45,"body":"of about 100 or 11,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2183.45,"endTime":2185.23,"body":"or something about"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2183.45,"endTime":2185.23,"body":"two years ago"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2186.22,"endTime":2187.58,"body":"and they're constantly"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2186.22,"endTime":2187.58,"body":"building that"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2187.58,"endTime":2190.34,"body":"but if you've got around"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2187.58,"endTime":2190.34,"body":"400 internal systems"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2191.06,"endTime":2195.35,"body":"and those systems disable people"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2191.06,"endTime":2195.35,"body":"because remember,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2195.35,"endTime":2199.55,"body":"you know, disability comes from,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2195.35,"endTime":2199.55,"body":"it's not the person."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2199.55,"endTime":2202.65,"body":"The person can identify"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2199.55,"endTime":2202.65,"body":"as disabled,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2202.65,"endTime":2204.14,"body":"but they're disabled"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2202.65,"endTime":2204.14,"body":"by the world"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2204.14,"endTime":2205.74,"body":"not being designed for them."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2206.42,"endTime":2208.52,"body":"That is where"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2206.42,"endTime":2208.52,"body":"the disability happens."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2208.52,"endTime":2211.12,"body":"And so,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2208.52,"endTime":2211.12,"body":"if you do hire people in,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2212.06,"endTime":2213.76,"body":"and say you have got"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2212.06,"endTime":2213.76,"body":"a system in there."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2213.76,"endTime":2216.18,"body":"Taxi booking system,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2213.76,"endTime":2216.18,"body":"straightforward one"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2216.18,"endTime":2218.94,"body":"and it takes me five minutes"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2216.18,"endTime":2218.94,"body":"to book a taxi"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2218.94,"endTime":2221.14,"body":"and then it takes someone who,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2221.14,"endTime":2223.7,"body":"you know just happens"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2221.14,"endTime":2223.7,"body":"to use assistive tech"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2223.7,"endTime":2226.13,"body":"and it takes them 12 minutes"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2223.7,"endTime":2226.13,"body":"to book a taxi"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2226.13,"endTime":2228.05,"body":"and then that is"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2226.13,"endTime":2228.05,"body":"a similar discrepancy"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2228.05,"endTime":2230.05,"body":"for every other system."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2230.05,"endTime":2231.68,"body":"I mean I remember"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2230.05,"endTime":2231.68,"body":"having these conversations"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2231.68,"endTime":2234.82,"body":"with senior managers and saying"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2231.68,"endTime":2234.82,"body":"there is three things that,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2234.82,"endTime":2236.53,"body":"you know I want to know"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2234.82,"endTime":2236.53,"body":"from yourselves."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2236.53,"endTime":2239.57,"body":"Is it okay for them then,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2236.53,"endTime":2239.57,"body":"is the expectation"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2239.57,"endTime":2242.83,"body":"that then they take shorter"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2239.57,"endTime":2242.83,"body":"and fewer breaks?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2242.83,"endTime":2247.28,"body":"Do they work longer hours, or"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2242.83,"endTime":2247.28,"body":"should they be less productive?"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2247.28,"endTime":2251.31,"body":"Even though they're completely"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2247.28,"endTime":2251.31,"body":"as competent as I am,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2251.31,"endTime":2253.9,"body":"and they have as much"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2251.31,"endTime":2253.9,"body":"to give as anyone else."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2253.9,"endTime":2257.52,"body":"You disable them by the choices"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2253.9,"endTime":2257.52,"body":"you make in that,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2257.52,"endTime":2258.8,"body":"we need to change this."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2258.8,"endTime":2260.0,"body":"You need to see"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2258.8,"endTime":2260.0,"body":"the thing through."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2260.0,"endTime":2261.93,"body":"It's not just about shoving"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2260.0,"endTime":2261.93,"body":"people in through the door."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2261.93,"endTime":2263.93,"body":"It's enabling them"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2261.93,"endTime":2263.93,"body":"to then thrive"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2264.54,"endTime":2267.13,"body":"and have a continuous"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2264.54,"endTime":2267.13,"body":"thing of improvement"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2267.13,"endTime":2269.95,"body":"and we don't have enough"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2267.13,"endTime":2269.95,"body":"of a language"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2269.95,"endTime":2271.93,"body":"around the data, around that."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2271.93,"endTime":2273.56,"body":"We don't even have"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2271.93,"endTime":2273.56,"body":"the numbers around this,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2273.56,"endTime":2275.44,"body":"you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2273.56,"endTime":2275.44,"body":"we don't do task analysis."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2276.19,"endTime":2280.33,"body":"You know, it's not just about"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2276.19,"endTime":2280.33,"body":"you know procuring things."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2280.33,"endTime":2281.69,"body":"It's not even just around..."},{"speaker":"GARTEH","startTime":2281.69,"endTime":2282.98,"body":"And not tell you,"},{"speaker":"GARTEH","startTime":2282.98,"endTime":2285.029,"body":"whether you can be"},{"speaker":"GARTEH","startTime":2282.98,"endTime":2285.029,"body":"an inclusive employer."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2285.66,"endTime":2287.76,"body":"Not even just"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2285.66,"endTime":2287.76,"body":"around accessibility,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2287.76,"endTime":2290.86,"body":"I think that organisations"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2287.76,"endTime":2290.86,"body":"forget about task analysis"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2291.39,"endTime":2292.62,"body":"in general,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2291.39,"endTime":2292.62,"body":"they just go,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2292.62,"endTime":2294.36,"body":"oh, this is going to"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2292.62,"endTime":2294.36,"body":"save us loads of money."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2294.36,"endTime":2295.86,"body":"This is the new thing."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2294.36,"endTime":2295.86,"body":"This is brilliant."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2295.86,"endTime":2298.01,"body":"You know, we'll be so,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2295.86,"endTime":2298.01,"body":"much more productive"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2298.59,"endTime":2300.42,"body":"and then you know"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2298.59,"endTime":2300.42,"body":"you actually look at it"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2300.42,"endTime":2301.68,"body":"and you think you're bleeding"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2301.68,"endTime":2304.86,"body":"those three seconds"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2301.68,"endTime":2304.86,"body":"per transaction per day,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2305.54,"endTime":2308.76,"body":"20 times a day across"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2305.54,"endTime":2308.76,"body":"hundreds of thousands of people"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2308.76,"endTime":2312.95,"body":"and it's a huge amount of money."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2308.76,"endTime":2312.95,"body":"It's a huge amount."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2312.95,"endTime":2314.41,"body":"It has to go somewhere."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2314.41,"endTime":2316.63,"body":"Yeah, it's that whole"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2314.41,"endTime":2316.63,"body":"problem Neil,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2316.63,"endTime":2319.63,"body":"the Douglas Adams"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2316.63,"endTime":2319.63,"body":"in Hitchhikers Guide"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2319.63,"endTime":2321.18,"body":"to the Galaxy"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2319.63,"endTime":2321.18,"body":"invented a thing called,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2321.18,"endTime":2324.99,"body":"the somebody else's problem"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2321.18,"endTime":2324.99,"body":"field and it was a machine"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2324.99,"endTime":2326.57,"body":"that you just switched on"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2324.99,"endTime":2326.57,"body":"next to something"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2326.57,"endTime":2329.18,"body":"and then no one really saw it"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2326.57,"endTime":2329.18,"body":"because it was someone else."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2329.18,"endTime":2332.56,"body":"And I think these"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2329.18,"endTime":2332.56,"body":"are employed a lot."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2332.56,"endTime":2334.16,"body":"These imaginary"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2332.56,"endTime":2334.16,"body":"little machines."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2335.46,"endTime":2336.97,"body":"Yeah, especially in really,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2336.97,"endTime":2338.94,"body":"really large organisations"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2336.97,"endTime":2338.94,"body":"because you know,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2338.94,"endTime":2340.32,"body":"you can compartmentalise"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2338.94,"endTime":2340.32,"body":"everything."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2340.32,"endTime":2342.21,"body":"You think,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2340.32,"endTime":2342.21,"body":"I know this department"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2342.21,"endTime":2344.59,"body":"and I know that department"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2342.21,"endTime":2344.59,"body":"and you know,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2346.19,"endTime":2351.95,"body":"I'm an expert in one particular"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2346.19,"endTime":2351.95,"body":"area of you know,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2352.75,"endTime":2354.35,"body":"one thing and nothing else."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2354.35,"endTime":2355.84,"body":"And they need to be honest."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2355.84,"endTime":2358.37,"body":"They need to be honest about"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2355.84,"endTime":2358.37,"body":"the conversations and again"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2358.37,"endTime":2359.96,"body":"I'm going to use"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2358.37,"endTime":2359.96,"body":"the BBC example here"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2359.96,"endTime":2362.74,"body":"and it was one that,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2359.96,"endTime":2362.74,"body":"I think sometimes,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2362.74,"endTime":2366.1,"body":"this is that, I think"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2362.74,"endTime":2366.1,"body":"you touched on this earlier,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2366.1,"endTime":2368.149,"body":"I can't remember"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2366.1,"endTime":2368.149,"body":"it was Antonio and Neil,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2368.75,"endTime":2370.09,"body":"even yourself Debra,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2368.75,"endTime":2370.09,"body":"I can't remember,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2370.09,"endTime":2371.69,"body":"it was the language"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2370.09,"endTime":2371.69,"body":"that is used"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2372.31,"endTime":2374.26,"body":"and the honesty"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2372.31,"endTime":2374.26,"body":"around the communications"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2374.26,"endTime":2376.52,"body":"and there was a system"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2374.26,"endTime":2376.52,"body":"that was brought in at lockdown,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2376.52,"endTime":2379.71,"body":"it was one of those."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2376.52,"endTime":2379.71,"body":"It was a system to help people"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2379.71,"endTime":2382.26,"body":"around mental health"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2379.71,"endTime":2382.26,"body":"and wellness and wellbeing,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2382.26,"endTime":2386.61,"body":"and it was very,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2382.26,"endTime":2386.61,"body":"very quickly procured"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2387.15,"endTime":2390.78,"body":"because we are in a Pandemic,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2387.15,"endTime":2390.78,"body":"we needed to get things fast"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2390.78,"endTime":2394.38,"body":"and in through the door"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2390.78,"endTime":2394.38,"body":"and the homework was not done"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2394.38,"endTime":2396.76,"body":"really as well"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2394.38,"endTime":2396.76,"body":"as it could have been done."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2396.76,"endTime":2399.3,"body":"But we knew it was in flight"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2396.76,"endTime":2399.3,"body":"and I got involved"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2399.3,"endTime":2401.43,"body":"and then there was a piece"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2399.3,"endTime":2401.43,"body":"of communication"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2401.43,"endTime":2403.85,"body":"that went out saying"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2401.43,"endTime":2403.85,"body":"we've just procured this"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2403.85,"endTime":2405.12,"body":"for all of our members"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2403.85,"endTime":2405.12,"body":"of staff."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2405.12,"endTime":2409.42,"body":"And now we had already then"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2405.12,"endTime":2409.42,"body":"started evaluating this saying,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2409.42,"endTime":2411.42,"body":"the assistive tech users"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2409.42,"endTime":2411.42,"body":"can't use this."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2412.07,"endTime":2413.67,"body":"This is not for all our staff."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2413.67,"endTime":2416.14,"body":"So we ended up in a very"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2413.67,"endTime":2416.14,"body":"senior management meeting."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2416.14,"endTime":2419.93,"body":"There was a meeting that you had"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2416.14,"endTime":2419.93,"body":"with all of the senior managers"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2419.93,"endTime":2422.28,"body":"which I used to go through"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2419.93,"endTime":2422.28,"body":"across the organisation,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2422.28,"endTime":2424.53,"body":"and I raised a question because"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2422.28,"endTime":2424.53,"body":"they were talking about this."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2424.53,"endTime":2428.25,"body":"And I said, I know"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2424.53,"endTime":2428.25,"body":"there are these problems,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2428.25,"endTime":2431.64,"body":"and I am not expecting them"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2428.25,"endTime":2431.64,"body":"to be fixed magically overnight"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2431.64,"endTime":2433.16,"body":"but can we change"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2431.64,"endTime":2433.16,"body":"the communication"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2433.16,"endTime":2435.58,"body":"because the communications"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2433.16,"endTime":2435.58,"body":"going out at the moment"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2435.58,"endTime":2438.08,"body":"saying this is for everyone"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2435.58,"endTime":2438.08,"body":"when it clearly isn't."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2438.96,"endTime":2443.14,"body":"So can we just be honest"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2438.96,"endTime":2443.14,"body":"and say we know"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2443.14,"endTime":2445.17,"body":"this is not accessible"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2443.14,"endTime":2445.17,"body":"to everyone."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2445.17,"endTime":2447.92,"body":"We are trying to you know"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2445.17,"endTime":2447.92,"body":"and tell the story as it is."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":2447.92,"endTime":2449.15,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2449.15,"endTime":2451.2,"body":"And then someone"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2449.15,"endTime":2451.2,"body":"came back to me and went,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2451.2,"endTime":2456.43,"body":"gave the usual fluff of well"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2451.2,"endTime":2456.43,"body":"you know, blah, blah, blah."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2456.43,"endTime":2459.82,"body":"And they said are you happy"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2456.43,"endTime":2459.82,"body":"with that answer and I said no."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2459.82,"endTime":2462.44,"body":"It's like, I'm not happy"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2459.82,"endTime":2462.44,"body":"with that answer."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2462.44,"endTime":2466.3,"body":"And we changed this."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2462.44,"endTime":2466.3,"body":"We should change this,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2466.3,"endTime":2468.45,"body":"if we can't be honest"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2466.3,"endTime":2468.45,"body":"no one will trust us."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2469.06,"endTime":2471.99,"body":"And we have to be honest about"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2469.06,"endTime":2471.99,"body":"the things we know are broken"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2471.99,"endTime":2475.51,"body":"and the challenges that we have"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2471.99,"endTime":2475.51,"body":"and then we meet them together"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2477.46,"endTime":2478.78,"body":"and this is that whole thing"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2478.78,"endTime":2483.16,"body":"and I think that defensive point"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2478.78,"endTime":2483.16,"body":"that people are doing,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2483.16,"endTime":2484.98,"body":"and I think the metrics"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2483.16,"endTime":2484.98,"body":"are defensive"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2484.98,"endTime":2487.24,"body":"why is why it looks"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2484.98,"endTime":2487.24,"body":"like oh brilliant,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2487.24,"endTime":2489.22,"body":"we have ticked everything off."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2489.22,"endTime":2492.48,"body":"They are designed in a way not"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2489.22,"endTime":2492.48,"body":"to look like they are too hard."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2493.47,"endTime":2494.75,"body":"It's like the A,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2493.47,"endTime":2494.75,"body":"double A, triple"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2494.75,"endTime":2496.26,"body":"A thing, it's nonsense."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2496.26,"endTime":2499.55,"body":"It's absolute nonsense"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2496.26,"endTime":2499.55,"body":"and they only are there"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2499.55,"endTime":2501.8,"body":"because I remember talking"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2499.55,"endTime":2501.8,"body":"to one of the people"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2501.8,"endTime":2503.4,"body":"who decided that."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2504.13,"endTime":2506.43,"body":"It's what they thought"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2504.13,"endTime":2506.43,"body":"they could get away it."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2507.29,"endTime":2510.31,"body":"But it doesn't actually,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2507.29,"endTime":2510.31,"body":"it's not about users."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2511.3,"endTime":2513.88,"body":"It was literally"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2511.3,"endTime":2513.88,"body":"about chancing your arm."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2513.88,"endTime":2518.17,"body":"Yeah, what's"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2513.88,"endTime":2518.17,"body":"pragmatically implementable"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2518.17,"endTime":2519.47,"body":"rather than possible."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2519.47,"endTime":2522.06,"body":"Probably but"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2519.47,"endTime":2522.06,"body":"they've not even tried it out"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2522.06,"endTime":2524.91,"body":"and then got feedback"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2522.06,"endTime":2524.91,"body":"to find out if it was pragmatic."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2524.91,"endTime":2530.19,"body":"It was done you know,"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2524.91,"endTime":2530.19,"body":"and then we are stuck with this."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2532.51,"endTime":2537.88,"body":"Yes. I know. Okay."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2532.51,"endTime":2537.88,"body":"So, we have massively overshot."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2537.88,"endTime":2539.48,"body":"Quelle surprise?"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2540.3,"endTime":2544.97,"body":"So, great it's been a joy"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2540.3,"endTime":2544.97,"body":"talking with you again."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2544.97,"endTime":2548.28,"body":"We look forward to you"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2544.97,"endTime":2548.28,"body":"joining us on Tuesday night"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2548.28,"endTime":2553.83,"body":"for Q\u0026A and the sun"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2548.28,"endTime":2553.83,"body":"will have passed over the yard,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2553.83,"endTime":2555.36,"body":"so it should be interesting,"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2555.36,"endTime":2558.17,"body":"and you can sample"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2555.36,"endTime":2558.17,"body":"your customers products."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2561.46,"endTime":2562.97,"body":"We'll talk more"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2561.46,"endTime":2562.97,"body":"about that on Tuesday."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2562.97,"endTime":2566.07,"body":"I have not mentioned them"},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2562.97,"endTime":2566.07,"body":"tonight yet on the recording."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2566.07,"endTime":2568.25,"body":"I need to thank My Clear Text"},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2568.25,"endTime":2569.45,"body":"for keeping us captioned."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2569.45,"endTime":2571.04,"body":"Thank you, Gareth."},{"speaker":"NEIL","startTime":2569.45,"endTime":2571.04,"body":"It's been a pleasure as always."},{"speaker":"GARETH","startTime":2571.04,"endTime":2572.3,"body":"All right. Absolutely brilliant."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":2572.3,"endTime":2573.53,"body":"Yes, thank you Gareth."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":2573.53,"endTime":2576.07,"body":"And thanks, My Clear Text."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":2573.53,"endTime":2576.07,"body":"We do really appreciate you."},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":2576.07,"endTime":2577.83,"body":"Page"},{"speaker":"DEBRA","startTime":2576.07,"endTime":2577.83,"body":"| 2"}]}