AXSChat Podcast with Kate Nash creator & CEO of PurpleSpace

Kate Nash OBE is creator & CEO of PurpleSpace (www.purplespace.org). Established in 2015 it is the world’s only leadership development membership hub for disability employee resource groups [ERG] / networks.

PurpleSpace delivers leadership know-how to disability employee resource group leaders who want to accelerate the pace of cultural change for employees with disabilities. The global community now stands at 2,000+ leaders across 200 organisations who together employ 1 million employees with disabilities. The community was born by demand following the publication of her first book ‘Secrets & Big News’ in 2014: https://www.purplespace.org/home?myhub&selected=530.

PurpleSpace leads the #PurpleLightUp – a worldwide global movement to celebrate the economic contribution of disabled employees and drive inclusive work practices – as part of the UN International Day of Persons with Disabilities on 3rd December each year. In 2021, the movement reached 253 million connections with content viewed over 186 thousand times.

She is External Advisor to GSK’s Global Disability Council, Strategic Disability Advisor to Post Office Ltd and a member of the UK Government’s Minister’s Disability Confidence Business Leaders’ Group.

In 2007 she was awarded an OBE for services to disabled people.

Her second book ‘Positively Purple’ is published on 3rd October 2022 by Kogan Page.

Transcript

0:00

This is a draft transcript produced live at the event and corrected for spelling and basic errors. It is not a commercial transcript AXSCHAT Kate Nash

NEIL: 0:06

Hello and welcome to Axschat. I'm absolutely delighted that we are welcoming back friend of the community Kate Nash, OBE, who has come to talk to us about her new book Positively Purple. So, Kate, you're always welcome on Axschat. But it's a real pleasure to have you back and delighted to be able to talk with you about Positively Purple and the impact that people with disabilities are having and the stories that you're telling. So, please tell us a little bit, firstly recap about who you are and your journey just in case someone doesn't know. Shame on them if they don't, but yeah, if you could just introduce yourself a little bit and then tell us about the new book. That would be fantastic.

KATE: 0:46

Wonderful. Well look, first of all, thank you so much for the invitation, it's always like coming home when we talk and riff together. So, as ever, a huge thank you for the invitation and the showcase, the spotlight you are putting on the book, Positively Purple. So, yeah, for your audience, if we've not yet, I have the very great pleasure of heading up a small social business with a really large global footprint. Purpose Space is the world's only network of disability employer resource group leaders and networks. We are seven years old as an organisation and over that year, over that period, we have grown to a community of 2000 leaders across the world, across 200 organisations, many large global businesses and we conservatively estimate that through those organisations we reach the lives of one million employees with disability. So, a fabulous community and really driving change, you know the world changes by many means, one is creative, imaginative Chief Executives who are determined to put disability on the board agenda, as well as great Chief Operating Officers and other leaders who are determined. But equally, it changes when we, as disabled people, chose to stand up and lean in and to help those who come behind us to be who we are. So, that's what it's all about. So Positively Purple, let me come to the book, so again, thank you for the showcase. Look, let me show it to you, it comes out on third of 3rd October. It's a very really book. So, I've got my first copy and the book really came about, so, it's autobiographical in nature . It is the story of my life, you know, I'm a woman in my late 50s, but for me the story my personal story of disability started when I was 15 years old, when I acquired rheumatoid arteritis, Still's Disease, a juvenile chronic arthritis, one of the type of arthritis and I've obviously therefore lived experience for many decades. So, the book is partly autobiographical. But, of course it also is the story of Purple Space and the is story of Purple Light Up which, of course is that global movement, which marks International Day of Person's with Disability. So, that is chock full of lessons learned because you know, to be of an age, one feels sometimes you have a duty to summarise and content all of the lessons that we have learned about how it's possible to drive change. So, it's got some lessons learned and practical actions for employers. So, very real things that they can do to build an inclusive working world. And it's also full of lessons for people with disabilities because sometimes and this the primary message within the book, I think sometimes we feel impotent within the process of change and unfortunately, for whatever reason, often because of struggle and The Velvet Rage and I can talk about that in a moment, we sometimes subrogate our experience and our destiny to others who we think have more control. So, this book is really a gentle but very necessary call to action for us, as people with disabilities, to stand up and be counted and share our stories and to help those that come behind us. I've got loads of messages and I can share, but that's broadly what the book is all about.

NEIL: 4:48

And you said you were going to talk about The Velvet Rage?

KATE: 4:54

Yeah, The Velvet Rage. Yeah, so, there is often the case, I think, so, as I say, every chapter gives lessons learned for employers and employees and one of the lessons, one of the practical actions I offer up, is for sometimes people with disabilities to notice the emotional challenge that we have in being in groups of people where we are singularly different. There was a wonderful book that Alan Downes published some years ago 2005. He called it The Velvet Rage, and it was the about the pain of growing up as a gay man in a straight man's world and he calls out, in a very powerful way, he reminds the readers of the fact that we are often amidst daily reminders that we are not the norm and that can take a huge emotional toll and sometimes anger can overcompensate. So, sometimes we might try too hard to earn the love and the respect of others and that includes our work colleagues or our line managers or our senior managers. So, one of the lessons for me and I've drawn on that work, is for us, employees with disabilities, people with disabilities to notice the emotional challenge of self-discovery. So, rather than let go of our destiny to others, it's about just noticing those often called, micro aggressions that we might face, so we can start to think about the things that we can do to build inner confidence, build resilience and notice the tiresome and tiring emotional journey in being who you are often at one singular person, one disabled person in a team, in an organisation, in a business unit etc. So, that's just one of the many lessons. Yeah, beware The Purple Velvet Rage and notice the anger, sometimes that sits inside us. Does that make sense, Neil?

NEIL: 7:25

Yes, it does, and I know that Debra has got a question, I know she is going to want to ask, but I think that that rage is really sometimes noticeable, particularly online, particularly in social media where communication gets truncated and so, we don't have the ability to mediate or moderate our language sometimes. So, I think that we see this and I also, you know, I do take on board the need to prove oneself as being a real driver of both progress and so on, but also something that is also driving exhaustion and burnout. So, I think it's really interesting to hear about that. Debra, over to you.

DEBRA: 8:27

Yeah, and thank you Neil and Kate, you know we are big fans of your work and I know; I just want to say that Axschat is very, very proud to stand with your organisation that created My Purple Space, I mean, My Purple Light Up, excuse me. We didn't start My Purple Space by the way. But we are really, really proud of what you did, I know really, as I take credit for her work but because I know that we are all stronger together. But, at a time when we are all confused. We are all confused. Corporate brands are confused, everybody is confused, it's just we know this is going on right now. But I see a lot of corporate brands trying to figure out how to include us. I see people, I hear people commenting about what others are doing or not doing and it's not good enough. But, I think one thing that always impressed me about your work and I will tell you, Susan Scott Parker introduced me to you for the first time and I remember when she told me about your work, she, I don't think I've ever heard her talk about somebody as robustly and nicely as she did about you, Kate. So, and Susan Scott Parker, is hard to impress. I remember when Neil impressed her. I mean she is hard to impress, she has got high standards. But the one thing that I always liked about what you were doing, is you wanted to celebrate the lives and the contributions that people with disabilities were bringing into the workforce already, not in the future but already. And I love that you did the book. I love the different things that your organisation are doing to actually bring us together. One thing I would like to see because I've seen this a couple of times, I would like our community to honour people that start something. So, Kate's organisation started My Purple Light Up and we’re all joining it. But if you're choosing to gets involved. Yeah. But don't just take it over without giving credit to the organisation that's running it and I saw that by some big brands last year. So, I will say that. I would also like to say that we really need to honour each other and help each other and celebrate each other. And so, I'm glad you did My Purple Light Up and I'm glad you have all these groups together where they're talking about empowerment and identity and what we bring to the table and the book with all of the examples, I think helps brands so much too. I'm starting to hear, you know there is a lot of, there is just total confusion. So, how do we as a community help you what with what you're trying to do really help employers understand the value we bring to the table. But in this new world Kate, how do corporations do this? How does ATOS do this, so we are not going to criticise them and say bad ATOS or whatever, AT&T.

KATE: 11:40

Debra, you touch on a really important issue that I chose to unpack in the book. So, the title of the book Positively Purple, is very deliberate and it's twofold. One, it describes my innate default personality. Now, we all have default personalities. We all chose often I think to try and adapt and to grow as individuals and sometimes to adapt the right behaviours to the right situation when we are campaigning for change, which is entirely proper. But one of the things I call out, both in terms of what I chose to do as an individual and deploy skill but equally where I notice as a central force that is necessary now to drive further change when it comes to the lived experience, is to notice and chose to decide whether we want to continually to collude with the negativity that often surrounds our life. So, one of the things I touch on is we have all heard, particularly when it comes to politics and the distribution of information. So, we all now know for example, the concept of misinformation, yeah, so that's false information that is shared without the intent to mislead. Yeah, misinformation. We have also heard about disinformation, which is false information, which is shared with the deliberate intent to mislead. And I've invented a new word called mis disinformation and for me, it calls out, it's neither false information and neither is it shared with intent or malice to deceive or not but for me mis disinformation calls out the constant barrage of how difficult our lives are at all times and what I chose to do is just to offer a challenge and to invite people to think about, what is the purpose of reposting another negative piece of information about how we have not climbed up the greasy pole, how poverty impacts on our lives and my suggestion is not that these truths don't exist, of course they do. But if we are really in the game of driving positive change, might it be necessary for us to spot the positive and the can do stories, not just equally but more than because I am strong but if you keep on doing, what you keep on doing, you will keep on getting what you keep on getting. So, I took a little bit about that, I refer to another brilliant work called Factfulness, Hans Rosling, he reminds us of the tendency as human beings, to turn towards the binary. As humans we have a basic urge to divide things into two groups and he's miss first mega misconception is that the world is divided dramatically into two. That's what we try to do and instead the world just doesn't work like that. It's not about the rich and the poor. It's about the majority in between who are trying to live our lives. So, yeah, to your point Debra, it's for me, about noticing the small things that we can do to make a very big difference. If you pick up Twitter and you put in the hashtag disability, be prepared to be gloomy within 30 seconds. What does that say about our lives? It doesn't capture the full texture and the beauty and the humour and the irony and you the naughtiness and the tricks and the flicks that we learn along the way. So, yeah, Positively Purple it's both a description of my default personality, I can't help it. It's not deliberate I neither apologise neither am I ashamed for it. However, my choice is to notice and to help others to believe there is a role of positivity what else is there, as human beings?

ANTONIO: 16:09

So, please correct me, if I'm wrong, so, you're talking about this tendency of people to divide everything in two sides. For me, that somehow also reveals that people have difficulties in dealing with complexity. So, they prefer to simplify. So, how do you, I would like to know, how should we find ways to look at complexity and embrace it? Because, after all, that's how life is. It's not just black and white. How can we embrace that complexity in order to improve things around us?

KATE: 17:00

Yeah, it's a great question, Antonio. I think in terms of our world because we're all trying to deliver, by being a change maker, you know in different ways and to your question, we do live in very complex world per se and there are so many complexities around the lived experience of disability and there is a dichotomy because on the one hand we can continue to live with struggle, whether it's not the right access to accessible housing, is it access to accessible transport, the right healthcare, you know there are many challenges that permeate our lives. But regrettably, because of that dichotomy I talked about, we fall into the trap of just thinking about the negativity. So, how do we navigate this complex world and again, that's the invitation to people with disabilities, is to share our stories as courageously as we can. So, I think, it's often the case that we often short-change ourselves. We don't invest in ourselves perhaps as much as others and that might be because of struggle, quite literally, you know, getting up in the morning and getting to work and sorting the children, as well as managing our disability and as well as working. But we have to I love John Armici, everybody knows John Armici. He talks about would we recognise our soul in the dark ? And it's a great strapline to invite us to think about our personal contributions in the process of change. If we are just strident and if we're just calling out bad behaviour, it's just one take on how you do things, and might it be proper? Is there a different contribution to share our stories of joy? To share our stories of irony, in terms of how people are around us and some of the most wonderful disabled comedians, everybody knows Simon Minty, now of Gogglebox fame, who calls out how often we are often perceived as an inspiration, he talks about inspiration porn. I know he's not the first. Many have done that. But this book is trying to popularise it's trying to get the word out that we should avoid being an inspiration and the way we can do that is to talk about the variety of things that happen in our lives and to share stories in the way that other colleagues do. So, it does mean we have to step up, it does mean we have to be brave. It does mean we have to practice, yeah.

ANTONIO: 19:50

On that, how can people with disabilities not fall into that trap because sometimes it could be through media or agencies, people asked to participate in events or give their opinions because somebody wants them to be the inspiration. How can they avoid that?

KATE: 20:13

It's a double-edged sword, isn't it? On the one hand, we want to support audiences to think differently about our lives, therefore the majority wouldn't want to necessarily say no and turn down an opportunity to help people to think differently and yet, just by doing that, just by sharing our stories, we may be perceived as an inspiration. But I remember having a conversation with Simon Minty about this, some years ago and he has a beautiful line because if somebody says, I'm inspired by you, his next line is, what are you inspired to do? Yeah, what are you inspired to do? So, ultimately, we can't help it that people, you know, I have arthritis, very significant arthritis, I have a mobility challenge, I walk with a wobble. I've had hips and knees replaced. I'm never going to run any day soon. I have dexterity issues and I have daily living challenges in terms of how I move around, not just where I live but, in my environment, and I can't help those people who might predict that faced with the same challenge that they could not deal with of course the reality is, we all get on with it. We have no choice. We have no choice. But it's a human tendency to feel that we wouldn't be able to deal with that burden. Not necessarily the physical burden but the emotional burden that comes with that. And that's a human thing. There is no point in my getting angry with someone who has a natural human tendency to feel inspired by the fact that I've got a good job and I love my family, and I do all kinds of wild and whacky things. But I have an opportunity to invite them to think about what they will do by being inspired. So if we can say to the individuals who say that they are inspired by what will you chose to do and then hold the silence enough for the experience. That was Simon. That wasn't me, it's in the book. Thank you, Simon.

DEBRA: 22:25

That is a great point though, what inspires you? I mean don't have to make people feel bad. So, what part did inspire you? What are you going to do with that inspiration? I think that's a beautiful question.

NEIL: 22:42

So, I would like to say Kate, you inspire me, but it's not because you're living with your arthritis, it's because of the work that you do to catalyse the community. And I think the intent of Axschat and some of the campaigns we have run have been intended to inspire people, but it's not been and it's to be inspiring them to action, right and I think that's right. So, Simon is absolutely right on that. I want to circle back a little bit to a point you made before about calling out. And I think that I was listening to a Podcast only the other day and they were interviewing somebody, and they were talking about calling people in and I thought this was really interesting. So, this was the lady that worked in racial equity space and you know, it's a really tough gig, especially in America and it can be really you know, quite aggressive and people are calling out and going you're wrong on this and instead of that, what it's doing is, it's not letting people get away with doing something that needs to be raised, right? So, you need to not let people get away with saying something that's ableist or racist or whatever. But start with, by bringing someone in and say I know you to be a good person, I know you do all these good things. What is it about this particular subject that made you say that? And so then, what you're doing is, you're not setting it up for confrontation because if you start with the criticism, you know, the person that said this thing is already going to be set up for conflict and so, we have this propensity for calling out and conflict on social media and I think that it's something that I very consciously try to stay away from. There are a couple of times that you end up going down the rabbit hole because you feel like you need to correct something and you know that once this back and forth is started, even though you are trying to be pleasant, you're thinking, why did I start this? You know, because I wish to be positive because you can feel yourself descending down into this confrontational mode and so, I think the positivity is really, really, really important and it's the positivity that inspires, it's not your life circumstances or being inspirational with your arthritis. It's the fact that you approach everything through the lens of positivity and believing in good in people that makes people want to do things for you that furthers the agenda. So, applause to you.

KATE: 25:43

Yeah, I'm coming back at you now and I love that. That's a beautiful phrase. That's a beautiful technique I love that. I really love it. I really love it. Do you know, I notice and it's interesting you mention Neil, social media. We all know it's a force for good and it's a force for let's just say, less good. And I'm having a senior moment here, who is that wonderful female comedian, her name is Rosie, what is her surname ? It'll come to me in a moment. She was on social media, fantastic comedian and she was

DEBRA: 26:20

Rosie McDonald?

KATE: 26:21

No, I don't think it's Rosie McDonald, it'll come to me. But she talked about her experience quite recently, where she was being criticised by people with disabilities for gigging in venues that are not brilliantly accessible for people with disabilities and it struck me as how challenging, how saddening because and why and she was very open about this, is she is trying to push boundaries and if she can have an audience of large numbers of non-disabled people to use her wonderful wit and beautiful comedy to drive change, then why she turn down and of course, while she is there, of course, she'll do everything she can do to give to get the right messages to the right people to ensure those gigs. So, I mean, we are riffing here around positivity. I think, we do have an opportunity to reset the dial. In my view, we won't hasten the pace of change for people with disabilities, for disabled people, if we don't chose to reflect on the contribution that we bring to that and if all we do is repost negative stories, how can we truly look to yourselves and believe that we are doing something useful and appropriate and happy.

DEBRA: 27:50

You know, Kate, I'll give you an example that, it just discouraged me and I live in Virginia, one of the states in the United States and a woman posted well, no I saw that the Governor of my state, Virginia, had passed a law that said employers were not allowed to discriminate against a person because of their hair and I remember just being amazed by that. Now, I know that African American women in the United States, I just know, I've heard a lot of discrimination and I am thinking it's your hair, why, so I get confused by it. But I posted about it, and I said, I'm amazed at what we find to discriminate against each other, I'm just amazed and so this woman posted back. At first, it was an interesting conversation and then this African American posted back and said, yeah, so how do you feel now? And she just attacked me, and it made me feel sad because what happened was boom, everybody stopped commenting. Everybody stopped the conversation. She attacked me because I'm white and I don't understand. It was just, it made me feel sad because I actually was trying to support the community. Right? And so, I think sometimes when you're being - any time I want to be holier than thou or I'm going to get up on my soapbox, I think, you need to get off the social media Debra, because it's not going to help. You're only going to make things worse. So, I always talk to myself when I'm feeling a little, you know holier than thou type situation. I always say, uh huh, you have you have to get off, stop, only because you have stopped the conversation. So, yeah and that's why I appreciate what you're doing, Kate.

KATE: 29:49

You remind me, in the book I talk about how we can learn from some of the professional social media influencers, the disabled social media influencers, that are a new breed of sassy, out loud, proud, extraordinary individuals, who are breaking the rules and doing some fantastic things. So, there is Ellie Goldstein, who has Down Syndrome and she partnered with Vogue and Gucci, and she has this wonderful following now. When she writes a post, she has something like 865 000 likes on one post. But her ability to be herself and be who she is and attract and command a following that is breath-taking, is extraordinary and Pippa Stacey, is another one. You know, she posts for Tesco’s, around Easy Bake recipes and her content outperforms nearly any content that a non-disabled person is posting around Tesco’s. My point being is, I suppose that they are learning how to use social media and their authenticity, as disabled people, to change opinions and views and that gives them an enormous opportunity to push back, I think at the inappropriate negativity around our lives.

DEBRA: 31:23

And I just want to say one more thing to the audience, we should all go out and buy Kate's book. But also remember, do a review it really, really helps to do a review. It also really helps if get her book, like Kate did and I know she's right now going to hold that book up so we can see it again. If you can see. You know, when you get it, take a picture of yourself, like Kate is right now with it and post and say, yeah, look what I got! Let's all help Kate and help each other because this book is going to break down barriers. So, I just want to remind the audience to do that and all three of us will be doing that. So, we appreciate you, Kate.

NEIL: 32:03

Absolutely. Yeah, I think we could riff on this topic for a long time because there is an awful lot to sort of unpack here. I am really interested in the positivity elements. De-escalation techniques as well, because I think this is an area where, where we need to look deeper into this as a society and as groups within our own disability community that don't always collaborate well, that are afraid that their piece of the pie is going to be taken rather than finding a way to make a bigger pie. So, I think that some of these things that are being looked at through the lens both of de-escalation and the positivity, are tools that we really need to sort of further our cause and further our inclusion in society. So, thank you for contributing. I also need to thank My Clear Text for contributing through keeping us captioned and thank all the community who have contributed so far to Go Fund Me. Reminding people that it's still there. Please share it. Don't feel if you can't put money in if you can't afford it. I understand the disability community has lots of expenses right now but please do share it because there are people out there that may not know that we're raising funds. So, I just wanted to get that out there.

DEBRA: 33:47

Right, and I'll say Neil too, if there's any corporate brands that are following us, you know this is a good way to support our community. We have hundreds and hundreds of shows and so, there's an opportunity for you to comment and help us. It would be wonderful if we could repurpose some of this content too. Kate, if you know any brands that want to help. This show has been on the air, what eight years now.

NEIL: 34:11

Yeah, we've got about 400 different interviews.

DEBRA: 34:16

Right, right.

NEIL: 34:18

And only 300 of them are with Kate.

KATE: 34:22

Well look, you are a remarkable community, and we'll absolutely mobilise our members for this Axschat and encourage them to hear about the extraordinary work that you three deliver. So, I couldn't help to mention you three in the book because you're fellow travellers. What I'd love to do is to offer up a free copy of the book for anyone that jumps into our dialogue, our chat. If you post more than anyone else, we will select you and send you a free copy of the book.

NEIL: 34:54

Excellent.

DEBRA: 34:55

I will say that that does not include the three hosts. And I bought one, even though she was sending me one, I bought one because I wanted to support you, Kate. So, and with the review, even though I hadn't done the review yet, because the book comes out. Yes. So, whoever on Axschat and you got to be on the chat, the Tuesday that we are featuring her, whoever does the most then we are going to send you a copy of the book, a free copy.

NEIL: 35:28

Excellent. Thank you.

DEBRA: 35:30

Thank you, Kate.

KATE: 35:32

Lovely to see you. Thank you.

DEBRA: 35:34

Bye, bye everyone.