AXSChat Podcast with Juan Rico, Head of IoT and SmartHomes at Teka.

Juan Rico holds a degree in Telecommunication Degree (2006) and a Master degree in Communication in Mobile Networks and ICT (2009), he started his career as a researcher at the Network Planning and Mobile Communication Laboratory at the University of Cantabria working on M2M and wireless communication. He has been working on M2M, and IoT projects applied to many different domains from avalanche rescue (awarded by European Space Agency) to Smart Cities (awarded by Eureka as best Smart City project in 2014). Last years he acted as head of the energy sector in Atos working on the integration of heterogeneous systems to improve overall energy management, and recently he joined Teka Group as Head of IoT to develop a smart home strategy for the home appliance manufacturer. He is the co-author of several book chapters and written more than 20 papers published in international journals.

Transcript

Neil Milliken: 0:03

Hello and welcome to Access Chat. Uh just like to say a warm welcome to Juan Rico. Juan is a former colleague of Antonio and myself. He's now working at Tekka. Deborah's not here this week. She's in uh in China. So it's just the three of us. So Juan, it's great to have you with us. You're a regular on Access Chat in on Twitter. So it's it's i ironic that you had to leave our company and join another one before we got to interviewing you, but I'm I'm glad you're here now. So tell us about yourself, your interests, and and how how you came to be engaged in the space and then a bit about what you're doing now at Tekka.

Juan Rico: 0:44

Okay, uh thanks a lot. It's a really honor to be here. Uh you all know how important for me is our Tuesday activities. So just a quick introduction on myself. I'm a telecommunications engineer. I have been working with uh mainly wireless communications for the last 15 years. I started working as research intern in the University of Cantabria here in Spain, uh, dealing basically with uh what was called at that time machine-to-machine communications. Then it's the name evolves towards um Internet of Things. I moved to a spin-off company created by my colleagues there, and basically we were in the early stages of uh IoT dealing with smart city stuff, creating devices for uh monitoring, um uh waste monitoring, for um uh parking sensors, uh lighting control, so very, very focused on the technological part of um of the IoT and the smart cities. After that, I moved to Atos uh four years ago, and uh there I was working in uh energy and transport department, uh, first as a researcher, then I was promoted to lead the energy part. And that time was uh when I met for the first time the Access Chat. Um, basically, because of one of the projects uh in which I was involved was trying to build an app for persons with special needs in Madrid, basically to support them how to use public transport and avoid uh crowded areas to let's say minimize the risks that they are exposed to. So then uh after the first engagement, it was uh really easy to keep uh well with the topic because uh the implications of uh let's say social sciences in in the engineering uh area is something that I have really appreciated for many many times. Besides my engineering role, I always enjoy reading philosophy things so it's kind of mix that uh make me appreciate or makes me push things. That uh it's not only how cool technology is but uh how useful things are, and in which way we are helping or supporting people to minimize the problems or to solve, if it's possible, the their problems. Then in June I moved to TECA. TECA is an appliance uh manufacturer, and here my role would be to is to lead the smart home uh group. Basically, we have uh many different uh well home major domestic appliances that basically covers the kitchen. And uh well we are starting to introduce connectivity. Since the connectivity market in the kitchen is something that is not uh really uh well heating as expected uh to to end customers, uh what or my role is uh a bit uh how to focus our approach basically to to to make it uh profitable and not only uh a nice technical solution.

Neil Milliken: 4:25

Excellent. I was trying to take myself off mute for a second there. Um and and and I think that you know it's it's clear to me your your tangible enthusiasm for the topic, you're you're a regular contributor to the chat. Um you know, we've had numerous sort of previous conversations whilst colleagues about including people. I think yeah, the the area that you're working in now uh around the home is is a is a particularly important one because you know these these are the fundamental basic you know appliances, home devices, they're the fundamental building blocks of the c of people's quality of life. So um you know being able to prepare your food and things that keep you alive, uh you know, uh things that keep you warm, all of these kind of things. So if you're um yeah. What what are the sort of things that you take into account when when you're as a as a group, when you're you're making stuff, how do you be inclusive um when when you're when you're designing stuff and how how do you also try and include your audience when you're communicating about the work that you're doing?

Juan Rico: 5:43

Yeah, uh that that's uh a quite tricky thing because uh let's say that uh now the market and all big companies I are taking like two different approaches combined, that uh at the end they are quite different and independent. That on the one hand they are trying to create things as sophisticated as possible, uh, using latest technologies, but uh mainly for the sake of uh selling how advanced they are. But uh from my point of view, uh losing a bit uh why do we need this kind of technologies? And on the other hand, uh they are selling the same, let's say, traditional stuff in which uh they feel comfortable that is mainly uh I don't call it accessible, but is uh useful for for everyone. So uh here what uh the challenge right now and what we are trying to find, right, because uh it's still uh unknown how how to fit uh the balance between technology and and usefulness, is uh in which way we can keep uh the all the advances that uh have been created in the last years, and at the same time uh offer solutions for for people who really need. One of the most typical things that is said uh about the smart kitchen is uh this is an each market, but no one is uh betting for any particular niche. So at the end, it's like uh okay, my oven can do a lot of stuff, but uh it's actually more difficult to use it that uh when I just can't control the temperature and the time.

Neil Milliken: 7:32

So uh this is the balance we need we need to absolutely so my my my my sister got married a couple of years back, and and you know these days when you get married you get a list of sort of presents and so on. And she ended up with a um quite an expensive microwave. Um and I've watched her husband who is a you know he's an engineer, so he's you know um using the microwave and it's got all of these buttons and all of these programs, and all he ever uses is the plus thirty seconds button. Keeps adding an extra thirty seconds and presses cook. Because everything else is too complicated. So so so so I think you know that there has to be this kind of and and and and I have the most basic microwave um out. It's it's pretty ancient and it's got the two s two dials. The one for how strong the the the cooking thing is and the other for the time. And and and and that's all I all I need. Uh I mean that said, you you can have complexity um but it but it it needs to be in the background. So I I g I guess your challenge is to to to take that innovation and and and to a large extent hide it away from the user um so that they only get it when they need it. So so I I think if we stick with microwaves, I also saw Amazon demonstrating uh an Alexa powered microwave um in in Washington earlier this year. And and my immediate thought was that's great, you can say Alexa cook my chicken and it knows that it's chicken. But what they needed to add was a a weight scale. Because then you'd know exactly how long to cook the chicken for so that you didn't give yourself food poisoning. Especially if and I'm thinking in in in the cases of of of people who have specific learning difficulties or people who are blind, actually, you know, a voice-enabled microwave would be really, really useful. I never thought I would say voice-enabled kitchen implances would be useful. I'm converted, I can see the utility. But with something like chicken, where you can give yourself food poisoning, you need to cook it for the right amount of time. So I'm sure there are lots of other scenarios that you can imagine.

Juan Rico: 10:07

Yeah.

Neil Milliken: 10:08

Where you could do similar things.

Juan Rico: 10:10

Yeah, indeed, one of the most or the typical application for a smart home is the appliance in which uh more features have been added is the oven and the microwave, basically to control the full process and assure uh, let's say, hundred percent accurate finish of the products. However, this is not happening because uh cooking depends a lot on where you are, what is the humidity, if the heat is properly distributed, which model you are using. Uh so it's uh quite a complex thing, and for me, the funniest thing so far is that uh this is called auto programs. And the autoprograms uh we we did a benchmark a few months ago, and we we found that uh autoprograms requires 11 steps from the users, so it's not so auto. Uh we can call it programs, okay, but uh yeah, that that's uh something that at the end when when we try with uh with users the um the apps that are already in the market, uh everyone tell us it's too complex to use it. I know how to cook my my chicken, so it's easier to go and do it manually. So what we are doing is take all these lessons and take the value of things, not try to make things more complex than uh current VR, and try to solve specific problems for uh specific needs. That's that's what what we need. As you said before, we need to hide the complexity. If things are more complicated just for being more sophisticated, people are not going to pay more for them. If we are not solving specific problems with the solutions we are uh providing, uh there is no added value of uh spending 2000 euros on an oven when I can buy for doing the same things I'm going to, I know how to do uh for half of the price. So this is uh where we are right now, trying to identify for whom we are going to uh create this value and in which way, because here the the opportunity is uh how ICT technologies make things easier for us uh to provide these uh these solutions for for, I don't like the word niches, but uh maybe for the people that have particular needs. Because there are many different things that could be done. It could be really quick tested, and the added value of that things could be much higher than any new feature in the oven in the way the the cookies prepare, the food is prepared.

Antonio Santos: 13:00

Okay, nobody wants to have a pistol uh uh uh uh appliance at home where technology becomes decorative. No, it's something that can do a friend who have all these features. That's it. And you pay premium price for something that you never use. Appliance is sometimes uh I want to uh it's something that that goes go all with you. So while no, it's not something that you replace every day. So how can you find a balance between building something, creating something today? And something that might write in the future how can you uh so you are talking about okay, just looking at the need uh solution here. But no, we we uh we you you we know well that always occasions in our life that we might we might uh feel limited because we are sick, uh for some reason we are not doing well, or because we have a kind of uh an accident who disrupted our daily activities and we are may not be able to use those applicants. How do you keep the balance between you know making the product, uh making that you know having a revenue margin, making so that you make a profit of it, and at the same time, uh having uh being able to that that product to be useful for people who buy it through their life journey?

Juan Rico: 14:27

Yeah, uh that that's a uh very good question, by the way. Uh that there is, let's say, two parts of this uh for this problem. On the one hand is uh how the appliances work, and this is mainly mechanic things, uh power electronics, and this is something that we uh I mean we can live with it for long for many years. I mean, there are a fridge that uh well could last for 20-25 years, and you will not notice uh the difference from day one to the final day. The same with the oven or with the hop or with the hood, there is more, let's say, uh well, uh decorative uh aspects because it's uh in uh different position in the kitchen. But let's say that in the way they work, you can live with them uh for for long periods uh without any issue. Uh the opportunity comes with uh ICT technologies. Once you introduce connectivity for all these appliances, you are taking an interface or a way of using it different from the one that is already embedded. And this is something that can evolve in the time quickly without any uh big problem for the manage of the appliance itself, and that offers a lot of opportunities for the manufacturers like um like us uh to bring in new things, to solve problems in a clear manner, to be scalable, and also to create new revenue, uh new revenues. Uh one of the well, I would say, challenges or the ideas we have is that uh at the end there will be some basic features that we need to provide through ICT technologies. And it could be an application in your mobile phone, but it could be also through Alexa, Google Home, or whatever interface that uh could arise in the future. And uh the the second part is how to make this sustainable in time, what kind of uh premium services or what kind of partners we will find to make this sustainable and at the end uh allow companies to keep investing on on the digital uh part of of the kitchen, let's say.

Neil Milliken: 16:51

Um thinking of the digital part of the kitchen, um and I've just been browsing through the range. Um well we talk, you know, the everyone loves the clean lines of the modern kitchen. Um when you've got lots of touch interfaces, you know, lots of uh uh so on. So uh are you exploring things like haptics right now? So because you've got lots of there's lots of glass, you've uh you know, not just within your your range, but you know, that's the the trend in kitchens right now. Everything's glossy, flat, flush, no nothing standing out. So I mean one of the things that I'm I'm super interested in is how you can give the illusion of touch. So you can have things like mid-air haptics, so you could actually enable someone to be um again, and this this will work for everyone, but it will specifically work for someone who's blind, um you know, having something that feels like a control rather than that enables you to sort of control it. And aga and again, it might be uh a way of of uh bringing back some of the simplicity. Um just just curious if those kind of things are on on your radar. Not not not so much from an inclusion point of view, but just generally, because that's often we see design trends going in in divergent directions from technology.

Juan Rico: 18:22

Exactly. Uh you you you you hit the right point. Uh indeed uh the trend is try to hide everything, and it looks like you don't have a kitchen in your kitchen. Yes. Or you don't have the appliances in your kitchen. And what uh has been done so far uh in terms of uh inclusivity is basically to keep the same appliances like uh we had uh 20-25 years ago with all mechanic parts big, uh making easier to check uh what are the warm phones of the of the kitchen. Uh that's what uh we would like to change a bit because at the end that is the kind of things that ICT technologies could provide. And you will not create a gap between uh how you are providing inclusivity and how you are providing advanced technologies for uh, let's say people that don't have any special need. So for bridging the this gap, we we we need to use the ICT technologies because otherwise uh you will keep always some someone behind. And uh that is something that uh, well, on the one hand is not fair, but besides that, uh you are losing an important uh third of the market that uh can really get the value of uh of this kind of uh of interfaces. So it's uh yeah. That is the way we well, I think that the whole industry is. learning to to to evolve.

Antonio Santos: 20:05

No, in in a in a kind of an indirect way, uh when appliances uh started to have more technology embedded and more connectivity, you somehow need to get the trust from consumers. Okay, can I my fridge is connected? Can I really trust it's connected to my to my Wi-Fi? How can I make sure that it's secure? And suddenly you have to pass your fridge. There's a software update there. That you need to make sure that it happens. And it needs to happen over a period of time, not just the first three patches. So how do you find ways where you're able to teleport but at the same time keep an ongoing process where consumers can trust in your products because nobody wants to arrive home and suddenly all the fridge is open, something happened just because somebody messed up with the network.

Juan Rico: 21:03

Yeah indeed for for us uh for for Teka the the higher purpose we have is uh creating meaningful moments and this is something we have in mind when designing uh solutions for the kitchen uh one of the trends that uh we we see in the market is that uh well most of the efforts are put on automation of processes and kitchen is uh a place to enjoy to share uh it's a kind of uh contradiction we we are trying to keep you the complexity of the things you enjoy doing so this this is uh one of the first barriers we we we need to to remove and also as as you pointed out how to build trust on on connected appliances and the only way is by providing useful services if the service deserves the let's say the risk people is going to because technology wise is not a a big problem I mean we have a lot of IoT things at home and people is not complaining about how secure they are of course uh all of them should be secure but if we are not uh providing any let's say added value people is not going to take the risk and here is where where well uh the the most of the effort should be put in the in the short term for the cyber security software updates and and all the things uh well the regulators are creating memes basically because um one uh another difficult point here with the smart appliances is that uh okay I can buy uh a smart appliance for my mother or for my grandma and probably she's not the best person to apply a software update to to it uh but if they do not apply it uh they are put in let's say uh an open could be up to 300 degrees Celsius so do we want to open this to to happen so how to automate these processes in which way we should ask for um uh users uh permission to this uh to to do this kind of of updates there are a lot of regulations there also in the way the the products are conceived we are following uh I think it's not the same but quite similar uh software certification processes as uh autonomous vehicles so uh it's a challenge but the the problem is not the technology is uh why people should try to should trust and try these uh connected appliances the the service is what is going to make uh people make the step or keep in the same in the same position yeah I think it's the same with with with every technology we're prepared to give away information about ourselves if we think that by doing so there we're gonna gain some kind of advantage.

Neil Milliken: 24:16

You know, it's gonna be beneficial to our lives. So um sometimes we do it unthinkingly you know we we're we're downloading these like tiny little apps and stuff like that and you know this is a tiny little utility and it uploads your entire address book and tracks everything you're doing and all this kind of stuff. But other times you know I think you know with obviously social networks there's been a lot of uh press about what they've been doing and uploading data and tracking you and so on and so forth. I think that with with uh household appliances again the there are these areas of privacy that you've you've you've got to overcome you know it's like uh if you want an always on always listening device um you know how's that data anonymized those kind of questions become come m more to the fore but I I think that that to a certain extent the genies out of the bottle what we really need to do is yeah as you say have the regulatory framework around it the the checks and balances so that so that people can feel um a reasonable amount of uh comfort that they're not going to be uh con continuously surveilled in in their own home because yeah otherwise I'm gonna be buying a dumb oven for the for the for for the for the seeable future because I don't I d I you know I I don't want it you know reporting back on my kitchen table conversations so so yeah there's there's that that element of trust but also the the trust that it's not gonna burn your house down the trust that it's not going to be uh you know a security leak and and and so on so um that comfort level I don't think it's entirely there yet with customers you're working for uh you know tech as an i uh an international company do you see differences between uh people's comfort levels in different national uh amongst different nationalities and different groups?

Juan Rico: 26:32

Yeah yeah definitely yes uh indeed uh one of the top producers for for appliances is China and the the level of services or the degree of penetration into um uh people's life is much higher there they they have a lot of details on on how they consume how they behave they don't have the GDPR which uh helps for that part although it's not necessarily good and uh they are providing services uh focused on health advice that uh it's uh quite uh I mean uh consumers there accept them in in a good uh in a good way in Europe the only um success story I'm aware of is uh Thermomix. I don't know if you it's a cooking robot and it has a version that connects to the internet and through an app you can get your plan for the whole week and they allow you to prepare everything in one day and you don't have to cook for the rest of the week. So this is something that is working it's a connected product and it takes into consideration what you are planning to eat for for for a full week. So it's uh an example that the problem is not the connectivity the problem is not uh how to make uh people trust on a connected appliance the problem is uh how to build useful services that uh people is willing to pay and use so uh this is uh also uh an example of uh well what is the path we should take or what are the ideas that uh that have been successful in in Europe. In the US they are now starting with uh also with connected products but uh it's uh something or the the pace of the market is uh similar to to the European ones for well putting remotely the um the washing machine things works for all the other things uh people is not so willing to pay for the extra cost of uh connected products they can buy them but they do not connect them and this is uh another thing that uh that figures show is that uh below 20% of um of the connected appliances uh sold are connected for the first time and it's around 5% of them which are regularly used as connected products so uh the decision for for purchasing um uh an appliance is not the technology that is behind it's how fit how good or bad they fit in uh in our kitchen if we do like uh the colors if uh things are I mean it's cool in in terms of uh of the the handle so uh people is not asking is this a connected product they are asking uh fit in my in my gap I can put it in the place of my previous uh oven so the drivers uh are are not the ones that we are pushing with uh with ICT technologies but at the same time we need to create the value to to make people aware that uh well it's not only uh the product I will put in my kitchen is also what it uh entails uh through an app or through a conversational interface or through uh haptics or whatever we want to or whatever technology we could apply so it's uh well it's a new market for for the appl for for the manufacturers but also we need to make a lot of uh let's say uh to raise the awareness and educate the consumers on the benefits but if there is no clear benefits uh we can invest a lot of uh raising awareness that people is not going to take the the new solutions but do we know that Amazon has a uh uh uh uh interesting potential market and they and in in the United States uh they are in sectors that they are not uh in Europe.

Antonio Santos: 30:59

Um do do you do you see let's say large supermarket change in in Europe uh getting interested about opportunity that can arise uh from having these devices uh connected at h at home and uh as and connecting to somehow to their online markets and things like that?

Juan Rico: 31:22

Yes the well uh the reality is that uh when I started in I think it was 2010 more or less we started to work with uh connected fridge that automatically asks uh create your order for the supermarket so this is something this is I think the first application that was created for smart homes but uh nowadays it's not working so uh for sure this is one important thing because you will create a direct link between the uh the need and uh the provision of the needs so uh the the the challenge or what uh or the keystone that uh has not been found yet is in which way user can control this process.

Antonio Santos: 32:11

Because uh the typical case of the fridge is okay I'm running out of milk in my fridge but I have uh six bottles in uh uh out of the fridge so what to create a new uh order if I I still have so it it's where what is the position of of the of people uh for accepting that this is uh something that uh can be placed one approach that is also followed is uh through uh receipts uh you can uh make a receipt in uh uh in in the oven and the oven will configure automatically to do it perfectly there is easy easier uh to take all the all the ingredients ask them to to a supermarket and get your uh your order at home but uh it's still something that uh okay everyone thinks that uh it's something useful but the reality is uh complex context that should be always driven by the um by the owner of the appliance but but i i also noticed that not uh that also um in in i i in europe in the countries that i i tend to to move you know in uh portugal and i and ireland i even the the online experience of the supermarket uh is not particularly appealing you know uh you can easily be as confused in their online uh uh websites than inside the supermarket so sometimes i feel that they haven't they haven't sorted out uh their online markets yet at a level that people can easily buy and sometimes the fact that they are still at a certain level of understanding digitalization is also somehow limiting them from understanding the opportunities of uh of appliances but that's just uh a personal opinion I I I think um uk wise the major supermarkets are trying to get better uh with their online uh offering um it's interesting to see the the the efforts from uh waitros and Tesco's and Sainsbury's and so on but they've been led by a hundred percent online supermarket which is a cardo in the UK and and and that that online shopping experience is really good.

Neil Milliken: 34:35

You know you you can search for the the products it it will do all of the sort of suggestion stuff you can do the sort of one click shop uh quickly load up your common items and all this kind of stuff you know have delivery times at times but the user's still in control it's not fully automated. Um I think the other the other areas where where we're kind of interested in and you might um you know think about is is also and and people are talking about getting rid of waste and packaging and all of this kind of stuff. To a certain extent if you're ordering ingredients they're gonna come pre-prepared, pre-packed now um that has pros and cons. The pros is actually it's really good for um you know single people it's really good for people with disabilities that have trouble you know maybe they've got rheumatoid arthritis they can't you know hold a knife or a peeler properly and so you can take the stuff put it in the oven have it cooked perfectly and have a nutritious meal better than um you know a microwave meal you know because you're you're cooking fresh ingredients. At the same time it comes with packaging which has a you know an an effect on the environment. So it's uh you know what what we what I hope to see is that we're going to start to see much more cooperation across ecosystems where uh you're you're working um with manufacturers and supply chains and packaging and so on. So because what what we we've done all of these verticals and these silos where where people are operating and actually our lives don't operate in silos. We cross all of these things. Our lives are horizontal and so therefore we you know we have an impact and if we can start having a a horizontal joined up approach to the way that we are you know providing you know stuff for people in their homes then I think we we can have a positive impact on people's quality of life but we can also have a positive impact on on the planet.

Juan Rico: 36:46

Are there groups are there uh industry groups that are starting to to to look at this stuff that you're aware of uh well this is uh a well a big challenge here uh basically uh you you you you uh presented it perfectly for me IoT is about uh breaking silos it's basically connect things to create new ecosystems to find who can get value from what you are offering and know in which way I'm going to get value from what I have put in my in my appliance and this is something that requires a change of the mindset of everyone in the in the market that takes time but at the same time they are starting to see the potential because it is not only the packaging at the end if we have uh appliances with uh connectivity and we have we know that uh well uh putting the washing machine or doing a pyrolysis to clean the the oven consumes a lot of energy if we have a partnership with an energy company we can align uh production peak of renewable production to uh reduce fossil fuels dependency so this kind of new ecosystem uh has to be created so far there are some groups of um of uh manufacturers that are working on creating interoperable environments but still is a bit uh not not is uh asilo because they are working with uh energy companies but uh the mind should be uh the mindset should be changed uh radically it's uh the offering we can create with our appliances uh i mean any uh connected uh product at home goes far beyond the specific use we foresee in our own industry right now it's uh you are part of a much bigger ecosystem which is not only a house but also a building a neighborhood and a city so combining all these things or should be combined somehow to make effective use of the resources electricity mobility water everything and also for food delivery it's uh well uh it's a challenge not only for for uh for for how to put things properly but also how to deliver things on time with good quality and in in a way that is uh sustainable for for everyone and well and this is uh a new thing that is quite surprising in in some or for some of my colleagues is a circular economy uh has been or there will be a new regulation from the European Commission uh well let's say forcing us to implement uh measures to support uh circular economy one of of the measures included is uh self repair of uh appliances is not an easy task but we have to change our mindset to allow people to do it and this change of mindset is enabling new ideas that uh takes uh well to unexplore uh uh places and new business can can came from from that part. So it's uh well uh a matter of ecosystem and who will be participating in the ecosystem and when we invite people to participate uh here because if the maturity of the solutions is not so uh good uh we can miss opportunities but at the same time if we never take the risk to invite new people we will not be creating enough value to to to the connected the to the connectivity inside the the program so yeah that's uh yeah the the path we have to follow because we don't have another choice uh and and and I'm kind of excited that they've not given you that choice to be honest because I think it's it's a really interesting challenge.

Neil Milliken: 40:48

Um what what uh I I I know that that some manufacturers have been making high quality goods but the built-in obsolescence of of white goods has been you know well documented over the last few decades um whilst some fridges may last twenty years a lot of other household goods go pop after you know a couple of months after the warranty expires which is why you know retailers make a you know make a fortune out of selling extended warranties for me you know our impact on the planet can be vastly improved by allowing this kind of modularity and repairability of products whether it's self-repair or engineer repair but that that kind of thing's I think something that we have to do as responsible organisations. So I'm excited about that. So sometimes legislation brings about good things. I know we've reached the end of our time um wish we uh there's lots of other stuff I could think about talking about but hopefully we can bring some of that to Twitter. So thank you Juan I'd obviously like to thank all of the great supporters that we have for Access Chat particularly those that you know keep the uh the lights on and the captioning going so Barclays Access who've been ever present for the last three years Microlink who are also great supporters and of course MyCleartext for providing the quality captions that enable everyone to access off videos. So thank you very much.

Juan Rico: 42:22

Thank you.