AXSChat Podcast with Christine Hemphill, Co-founder and Managing Director of Open Inclusion.

Christine is co-founder and Managing Director of Open Inclusion. She ensures that the client’s business objectives are understood, managed and fully met through great collaboration, clear focus, prioritisation and an uncompromising eye for quality and practical usability of work produced.

Christine has a background of over 20 years in designing and making products, services, teams or businesses, or making them better. The last 5 years have been solely focussed on customer and workplace inclusion, digital design and inclusive brand experiences.

She loves looking for, building and empowering the best team to support clients embed inclusion so effectively we are no longer required! Then finding and engaging new clients where we can add significant value and do it again. Each time widening the circles of inclusion and deepening business and user benefits.

She works closely with the research team, regularly engaging with our panel or other user groups to better understand how diverse customers really experience brands. This informs our work with clients to improve the experiences for all: tactically through product improvements and more strategically, building role-based awareness, tools and skills. As an economist by training and human-centred designer by practice, she also leads the economic value research for Open, assisting our clients to understand the potential financial benefits of more inclusive approaches.

When not managing the growth and delivery quality of Open, she can generally be found in a café with her husband, kids or friends or on a mountain cycling, running or skiing some Alpine trail.

Transcript

spk_1:   0:03
but I don't want the two extra shot. We're delighted to welcome Christine Hemphill today. Christine was the CEO of open inclusion and also, um, a expert contributor to the valuable 500. Which access chest is also absolutely 100% behind that as his efforts. So we've been talking over the last 18 months or so anyway, but it's great to have you here in your official capacity. Thank you for joining us on Greely. We've had conversations before, but, um, it's great to have you joining the They're sort of access check community. And I think you have been a talk today about a topic that the effect is all which is, you know, access to finance and open banking. But but also, just if you wouldn't mind sort of introducing yourself and giving us a bit of your background, because if we Google for you, we we see you're a tri athlete and, you know ah, very, you know, very keen sportsman. Very talented sports person. Andi. No, necessarily. People don't necessarily know about your work with open inclusion, so please tell us a bit about yourself.

spk_0:   1:18
It's certainly not quite such a, such as active athlete any war, but it keeps me out of trouble. Still, Um, thank you, Neil. It's lovely to be here. I've been an effort supporter of the chapter for a very long time. So just in time today, um, in terms off my background, I actually have a banking background in effects. What was a cigarette between my banking world and my inclusive design world? But my background waas I actually came from a few industries but ended up in in the banking and particularly looking at service proposition design. And it was in the early era of digital banking. So in the early North, you're through the noughties, actually, right through that decade, I'm ripped in large retail banks in Australia and considered essentially how those service's could be vital, provided customers more effectively more for completely fulfilling people's needs. By the end of that decade, I actually had some personal experience of disability and my family really enough that triggered me to going and having a mid life crisis of the most positive for my wooden became a triathlete for a couple of years, and when I came back, Tiu real World and Thio more normal where it came into digital design and specifically into inclusive design. And we establish I established open in 2015 with the very clear aim off making inclusion what I saw it as which is an enabler of great design, something that by understanding insight from the communities of people with specific needs and with more extreme needs, we could make products and service is and your overall into in solutions that will fundamentally better for everyone that didn't exclude specific routes. But we're incredibly useful for everyone as they had needs. That kind of came in and out of their life. Um, I also so it wasn't free at the time. It just didn't feel like a very cool community or something that designers and innovators were leaning into. I saw this is and I still see this is something that's incredibly exciting tool for people who want to just be better at what they do and create better and more valuable, uh, propositions, Uh, whatever they are with their internal in a workplace or external to customers. So today it was just absolutely blinding the obvious, and we've worked very hard to do that and open specifically, focus on helping people understand the voice of customer that we do a lot of usability testing Inside co designed co creation co innovation with a very large community across the UK of people who are you have all sorts of different access needs, who identifies to save people may not identify as disabled, um, and also a community that are over 65. It's off

spk_1:   4:18
excellent and thank you and I And then I know I'm I'm familiar with some of your work, and it's not just, um, stuff that you know there's good research there. And it's not just digital accessibility or the digital access its, you know, understanding, physical accession and the whole the holes of the totality around as well,

spk_0:   4:42
Really good confidence were really important to me that I think about everything from the customer outwards. I don't think of it from the solution backwards, so it's not just limited to a certain part of a proposition. If somebody wants something done, they might patch on digital. They might touch on physical. They might speak to someone or engaged with someone on the phone. Attn. The end of the day to get that job done takes a whole range of different elements and particularly now is people tend to your multi channel. There's been talked about for decades, but he's really very pervasive now and pretty well, everyone interact in many different ways with a brand, so we can't solve problems if we don't look right across the experience. And that's something you'll be very proud of. Working white costs experience

spk_2:   5:32
So Christine. So we have people using multiple banks. A council to three banks might have an account in an app where you back. You manage all your bank details and can even have some Gamification to have commanded your Faneuil's. But some off the actions within the apse they are. Do you two do the same type of actions? A payment, a transfer? How do you make that consistent? Because sometimes you have a nap and you do it in one way. You have another app, and then you ever step that you do it in our way and in the end you might be lost. You know, off that and you might be mistakes. Also arguing. We improve that users side off the experience and at the same time we do think the open the the overload intent off the activities that they use, it needs to do within.

spk_0:   6:27
That's a really good question, Antonio. And essentially, if you think about thanking, you know it's a fundamental in neighbor of independence. It's such an important part of their lives, something kind of banking your. The truth is, banking is such an important kind of fundamental foundational layer to so much of what we do and the complexity that you're talking about there, particularly when you have multiple banks or multiple ways that you interact with. Financial service is organizations that makes such it really difficult. It's also very important, which means your stress is quite high already, and then you add the layer of its very opaque. It's very hard to see when I'm choosing that. I wish to have a new banking service sound in a new credit card, or I I'm looking to get a home loan or car alone or I have a specific banking made in mind when I'm on the outside of the bank looking in, trying to work out. If that baby's going to support my needs, they're still not. I can see what they sell. But the personal needs I might have with alarm. Assistive technology user Whether I particularly like simple language, whether I have difficulty with numbers, what it might my needs are, it's very, very hard to see whether that bank is going to support those needs, real or not. And there's a huge difference between different banks in how will they support needs. So at the moment, this is a real challenge. Interestingly, open banking, where we can split the service layer from the product layers to say I want to get a mortgage. But I've already got three other accounts in different banks, and I don't like the organizations. No other Slayer. When I'm doing those interactions trying to make a pain in trying to do theirs, I find it difficult. There is more this potential for more fluidity. It's still potential because open banking hasn't really quiet. Got the teeth all the momentum that I think will have in the future. I think it'll be an exponential pick happened at the moment with the slow stage of that, Um so it's quite it will be more possible in the future to have a service where you choose. You know what I prefer my bank be to my bank? A. I'd like to have the service later that I use over there, not this one. And therefore, I'll just draw the product information into that service layer and be able to be supported there instead of here. I think there's also an interesting point. Four designers and developers off you have financial service is and actually have any service is that have payment systems that there is a recognition. This is a bit like the early two thousands, with its natural world enough to to remember early days of digital design. It started off with a plethora of design options and ways in which people interacted and afford Ince's hear those things that we used to make it easier for people to understand what's likely to happen when you do something, and they kind of proliferated very widely. And then the McCains of norms that became more and more accepted and more used and more expected from users. And I think it's very important for banks, and particularly for those designers and developers, either in agencies or working in the banks to recognize that there are quiet, uh, recognizable patterns that should be followed as much as possible. We do want to innovate. We do want to make things better. But unless is a really good reason for changing a pattern that people are used to. We also need simplicity as much as possible so that people could move from one organization to another and not have to relearn from scratch.

spk_1:   10:10
But, oh gosh, you know what I mean. They're a great point. And you mentioned the word that afford Ince's, which is a, uh, no often use but really, really important. Um, particularly for, ah, cognition and understanding and everything else. So thank you for that. Let's keep affording. This is at the top of people's minds and all that ever have her question. I just wanted to thank you for for mentioning, afford, insist, because it's really important.

spk_2:   10:44
Plato All right.

spk_3:   10:45
Yeah. Christine, thank you for being on the program. We really are excited about You know, your wisdom that you bring into the community. I know that open banking is you know, it started. I assume I believe it started in the UK, and it's starting to spread its way across the world. And of course, all of these financial institutions are all interconnected. So even if somebody is, it is not in their country yet. It doesn't mean they should not be paying attention to it because we're all just so interconnected with all the financials. So you know what to, you know, would have people what did what did these banks in these financial institutions need to be thinking about To really get prepared for this, cause this isn't gonna go away. This is going to keep. And it should. I believe it should, because as consumers, we should have choices. So I was just wondering, you know, where you think it's gonna go, what advice you would have to the banks and the financial institutions that are listening and you know how they can prepare. And by the way, the good news is, as they prepare for it, they're going to become more inclusive to all of their customers, as you've noted earlier in the program. So thank you.

spk_0:   11:52
Absolutely. I have kind of talk about the problems. I which is this complexity, the importance of capacity. The lovely thing is in banking at the moment, that's a fabulous solutions coming through. And this is an area that? Yeah, I'm an optimist. You know that, Dave. I would optimists at the best of times anyway, but I haven't really optimistic about what is happening. The financial service is base at the moment, and essentially, the regulations that are coming through are enabling solutions that are bubbling up with smart people working and teens all around the world. It's enabling that to come through in a more powerful way and more efficiently does entry on the solution side. There are some fabulous new solutions, and some of those of digital solutions. Several layers of property shouldn't. So people thinking differently about how to price and office service bundles that are more relevant to people's lives as they leave today there are new providers coming through is to say some of these air you regulated providers, big banks. Some of these are kind of small digital teams, creating stuff they can still too regulated providers, and some of these are not banks. But they're still financial institutions that are providing service layers that could be leveraged by regulations such as open banking. We it's what it's Donnie is. This is a century very, very significantly reduced the barriers to entry to provide us in financial service is you go back to the early day 19 eighties, when the bank's worth. Sorry, I'm going back into the Dark Ages, my Children to say so when the banks were being deregulated from a lot of them being government organizations. And all of a sudden you have these very large, very powerful, quite all Acropolis tick eso very few players in a single market so that they had a lot of power to choose prices and to choose their own profit and not a lot of competition to bring that down. And what we're seeing now is this layer of deregulation is significantly changing the power away from the provider towards the consumer. That is fabulous news for those consumers that have had their mitt needs quite significantly under Mitt. Up until now, they are valuable. There are some very large segments. In fact, some of the wealthiest segments have some of the highest, some damn it needs. And what we're seeing is there is now an opportunity for whether it's product lines or whether it's a specific segment for a new player to come and say, I don't want to be in full service in Twin Bank. I'm not gonna try and compete with Citibank or HSP City and create a footprint as large as this is, that would take them 50 years, 100 years to create. You know what? I'm gonna solve that unmet need there that I understand. And then I'm going to the significant research and significant design for and I'm gonna fix with that because that at the moment there is no one in that space and that space is very open. And there are so many spaces in banking and finance, they own this board, not just outside of just then heated financial service is more bored. The insurance and other financial needs. Um that there is Theis opportunity that open banking provides just for those. We'll just take a step back and quickly say what open thinking is. It sounds great. Record a conclusion. I love the brood over it. Obviously, it means we don't know, you know, that the actual beauty of it is is to allow war into, not exclude. So, you know, open banking to not exclude Sounds like a fabulous concept. The idea of it is it's very focused on digital banking and what it does is it provides a consistent well met the daughter to move between organizations that is secure and that is designed and defined by customers. Now these are really important things because at the moment, if you choose and Antonio, you were talking about this before, if you say I've got two banks and actually wished to, um, you have won those is another Today, you'd need to move all of your money or the products underneath across from one to the needs, and I'll use the train analogy. I quite like a physical person. You know, I offered his physical analogies. If you think about it, the engine is the product. And today in the rails, other daughter and the regulations that sit underneath that and it today the banks. But well up until recently, the banks have bean the engine and the carriages, and the regulator has provided the rails on reach. Those trains of angle from operations of financial says what's happened with open banking is those products. The engines of your financial security can stay the same that you could slip out carriages, and actually the customer experiences were sitting the carriage. Yes, you could choose your your product that goes faster or slower. And what have you that? Actually, the majority of your experience comes from you. The surroundings in the carriage on what we're doing is where enabled. Now the have many more multiple types of carriages that will suit many more types of specific needs. So a group that may have seemed like two smaller group, say, in the UK, the community of people who are being sealed as their first language. It's a very important community, but it's not the biggest community. It's somewhere around 40,000 people where their preferred language is beer Sil, previously an individual bank might think I probably only got a small portion off them cannot be brothers. Investing in providing service is now. Someone can create a carriage specifically for them, and they can think about, um, providing a service that attracts all of that community to one place. They could still hold their products where they are, that they can provide a service layer, that it's really specifically and beautifully designed to support their needs. That's why I've been backing so powerful for the inclusive design community

spk_3:   18:13
very, very well said. And just for if anybody does know a B S Ella's, that's British sign language.

spk_0:   18:19
Thank you.

spk_3:   18:20
We'll just it just because we have an audience in other countries, too. So yes, and you had mentioned that, and I know that we're very proud to be one of your partners. So we do a lot of collaborating with your company. I'm very impressed with all due, and but we also excuse me, are focused on the older generation as well, and I recently couple of months ago spoke at a very large multinational bank and their concerns. They had tried to do accessibility. They tried to disability inclusion. They really have made a lot of efforts, but they're finding now that they're high net worth. Individuals and even their executives have aged into disabilities. And what is happening to the customers and the customer? You know, their their assets are really, really freaking out this bank, because they thought they were ready for what we have been telling them I was coming for a long time. I know. In the United States, there's over 70 million Americans that are now over the age of 56 considered in the baby there, the baby boomers and they still control 60% of the wealth. And I'm in that category of those baby boomers. Of course, the baby boomers are all over the world. But this is causing now a lot of a lot of companies to really start paying attention to this because we've been predicting it. We've been telling them we're being telling them, Get ready, get ready. And now we're right in the middle of it. And it's and I find a lot of our customers are very confused. They thought they were putting all the things in place and they're not prepared. And so I

spk_2:   20:02
will get No,

spk_3:   20:02
he wanted to, you know, talk about that a little bit.

spk_0:   20:06
Our lucky That's absolutely fabulous. An interesting question. So thank you. And in fact, the older community has some really specific and interesting, Um, needs that kind of come with it that I mean that the way in which we currently providing service is it's fading them in. So, quite as you say predictable ways, you know when you're sitting with the community going, Come on, guys, we we can fix this. Um, so a couple of quick things firstly, identity, with a lot of people there owning the identity of having an access need can be quite different to younger people with access needs and that this is something it's not, you know, for everyone. And obviously there is no older community justice, the reason or disabled community. There are many, and you shoot terms of sub communities within the lies. However, there is a significant difference between people who in career of impairment over 65 those that incurred under 65 in terms of identifying is disabled. Quite often they'll identifies just being older. And, you know, I've got a perfect example in my family where my father lost his hearing, quite young identified is having a hearing loss. My another wouldn't say today that she has here have any hearing loss yet. Her hearing is probably now at about the same movements forefathers. So it's just that Howard occurs of when it does and how normalized that is across your group of footings as well. So, interestingly is a service designer. That makes for an interesting challenge, because if somebody doesn't identify as being disabled, if you have your your access solutions, even behind an accessibility menu, something that people have to reach into. They won't necessarily be found by people who don't get it. Identifies having a specific access need. So this is where we're providing the options and the fluidity off alternatives. What, early in the experience without people having to reach in specifically, becomes far more important with older communities than adults with communities? The other interesting thing about older people is a huge amount of wealthier. There's also changing needs. So it's Some banks could look at people who are already You're not borrowing money from me anymore. Actually, your lifetime economic for any to me. Maybe you've got 5 10 15 years. You're my actuarial. Studies will tell me what that is, and that's not very high. Then maybe I don't bother servicing you very well know I'm being. I said, I'm very optimistic on being little Pisces mystic here. People could decide that. Actually, this isn't a space that they really need to focus on, and that they're not going to provide the same quality of service to that community. There's a very interesting foolery to that, which is how brand experience in pet people around them and as people become more vulnerable, as people are in circumstances where they're needing additional care and support to manage their days, day your banking and solutions. And Dave, I know you and I have had this conversation before particular about things like powers of attorney. At the moment. They're they're very blunt tools, and they're either on or off sort of. Power of attorney for those that don't know is when you give the right to do your banking financial service on your legal activities to someone else and you delegate that right in someone under certain circumstances, say, an injury and accident or illness that's progressive. Today it's an honor wolf. And in fact, as people age, they often need a hand that off in a layered way. That may have cares that they wish to provide some access controls, too, but not full controls of banking. All of these air service is that are incredibly valuable to consumers at that point in life and a very poorly provided today. And I think there's a huge opportunity to better soul for some of these changing needs in these radiance of needs, Um, as people are raging and then Lastly, you have end of life. And of course, this is a very missing environment where there's a lot of emotion, there's a lot of need is and in this family trying to pick it up Over the course of the world of life, people may have many banking relationships. They may have quite complex, um, financial situations to kind of on peak and hand off and manager at that point, and I think there's a really interesting piece of work. But some leading financial organization could pick up and take to better manage that and help people prepare for there to create products and service. Is that particularly in leveraging open banking? Could actually of Malcolm eight people's complexity of their life and make it easier for that either handing over management as they need some support or end of life when they're handing it over completely? Um, to make that a much smoother and more, Um, yeah, well, positive experience. And finally, it is very valuable to very, very valuable to the banks to you. Of course, because if you're creating value to a consumer that is valuable to banks because that you could be shade Sorry, I can't

spk_2:   25:38
ever seen any interesting implications where through open banking, no family members can support each other. Ah, so the managing bank know that their financial assets it could be apparent that wants to give more independence to his son or daughter with visibility or another, every family member to allow him to be financially independent and avoid something off the risks? Let's say overspending. Ever seen any cases were keeping people secure and everyone comfortable but at the same time not getting their independence?

spk_0:   26:18
I have some I haven't seen, as many as I would like would be the simple truth of it. There are some organizations such as I know about Peace has done some work on care accounts. Really, considering that, how do you provide some controls to, uh, Kara without handing over the keys to all of your financial um, requirements? And, you know, I certainly know from the community I engage with and some of them have care is that they're required to do their banking for them. Um, yeah, there's a lot of Ford. There's a lot of problems with it. There's a lot of financial, um ah risk that individuals with disabilities have to take what through toe. We have prints that when they go to an 80 him, they have to ask someone to help them. That's either you, preferably someone in a bank that possibly someone on the street. So you know, when things aren't well designed, people are very, very exposed to risk. And what you're talking about there is creating specific products. And there was an airport, whether it's your ETIENNE's that work for everyone, or so the solutions that allow handoff of various controls, There is a lot more potential for it than there are applications for this business. Very good work in the UK, done by the Money and Mental Health Institute, thinking about at variable mental health conditions of people's say on the bipolar spectrum. Um, you have periods where I have very significant spin that might be out of control if they haven't set themselves and financial controls beforehand, and you can essentially create something like a ulysse and bind where you can. Eunice. He's tied himself to a mast, as he wouldn't pass the siren so that he couldn't you react to them in the way that he knew he would otherwise. And in banking, you could do the same that you can set your own self controls independently. But at a time when your calm when you've got that moment of mental health, that's in a good place to do so. And when you have that, that deterioration later that you have already set those controls up and I think those sort of products are going to become much more pervasive than need is far greater than the solutions are that are out there today. So anyone who's interested in innovating in the banking space let me put a big red flag up here to you that this is a very, very interesting and valuable space that I think would be really useful to a lot of people ugly.

spk_1:   28:54
I would echo that because the issues alive for us right now, their life for May I mean some of the stuff you talked about, it absolutely resonates with me. You know, my my parents, ever that

spk_2:   29:08
necessarily

spk_1:   29:09
recognized this ability to the long time for people to come to terms with the concept of disability rather than all. My hearing's a bit bad. Oh, you know, on this kind of stuff on and anxious. The banking is difficult. You know, um, the usability part is difficult. That whole use the journey is difficult. And, um, actually, but But this is not necessarily just about my parents. You talked about the benefit to organizations. Well, I've got a great example of this. The company that I work for actually run on the bank. It runs the next one favor from the investment on behalf of the government. Way we run it, Andi. In the UK, they had something called a pension of bonds, which, which was encouraging. Older people have got lots of money, put money into a government bank, get a higher rate of interest and enable the government tohave from catch. So, um, guess what? That that became something that lots of people took up. And they were, um 11 I got someone at the door, but basically, pension of bonds became really difficult. And my parents tried to do it, and they ended up calling the service less. It cost £12 to call the service lift one second. I don't need to answer my door.

spk_0:   30:43
No problem. No problem. I'm actually gonna pick up on that, though, which is We've talked about retail banking to this point, actually, business banking and particularly it any banking so small to medium enterprise business thinking. So the lower end of business banking extraction we pour in the user experience, if you think that reach our banking is complex and I paid and difficult business. Banking is the poor cousin of retail banking in terms of the way the user experience is often designed, and it is incredibly important, particularly as we look see, many countries are looking to engage, you know, and and enhance the S M e culture and communities because it's a huge engine of potential growth and innovation. And yet we're creating this very large barrier right at the beginning. And if you think about the underemployment of people with disabilities by large organizations because of the way recruitment and management is one today, a lot of people with specific access needs a choosing to self employ, did up their own businesses. They understand their value better than is understood by others, and we're putting bigger barriers on them that we are retail clients. So it's not think this is a retail banking problem. This is a banking problem, and they're humans. At the other end of the experience, whether it's retail banking or business banking at small, medium or even a corporate level business banking, it needs to be accessible, inclusive and improved experiences

spk_3:   32:20
for everyone. I agree. And I also think, you know, I know that a lot of Americans have lost confidence in our banks after you know, the financial crisis that happened years ago. And so there's there's a lot of you know, a lot of Americans, for example, don't always feel that the banks in the financial financial institutions are really on the conservative side. Of course, you know that's not really true. We have some amazing organizations. You were mentioning Barclays, I would mention I would mention Citibank that has done a wonderful program within a state of with the New York City with financial literacy to support people with disabilities. So there's a lot of really positive things happening, but still the banks and the financial institutions have black eyes because of previous, you know, corruption and greed. So I think this is another reason why banks need to do stuff like this to make sure all consumers are considered every single aspect of our lives were considered and how you're supporting us and open banking is coming, so get ready for it. So let me turn it back over to Neil. I know we're out of time and if you want, I'm Christine. Please let me give it to you first and then we'll give it to me.

spk_0:   33:39
I'll just quickly talk about mistrust. It's incredibly important. And let's recognize this isn't an US problem. This is absolutely true in the UK, where they also have a financial crisis of similar Gail. It's true right across the world, even in Australia where we didn't although the financial crisis hit, it didn't hit in the same way because there wasn't over lending to the same degree that in the world commissions he's in 2015 because of poor product selling and inappropriate actions on behalf of banks towards their clients. So this is something that has occurred, you know, across the world and threat. I look at this again, my opportunistic and optimistic soul comes out and I say this is an opportunity. This is an opportunity for the good banks to step up and say we are actually going to show you rather than tell you actually at with integrity and show people the way in which they supporting their needs. Joe, the way that they operating to understand them better. And the understanding is critical here because at the moment there's not enough listening by the banks off their customers to understand where those gaps and arm it needs are. And I think it is a absolutely fabulous opportunity, both for the incumbents who have got brand credibility challenge because that's a residual challenge that's carried over from his mistrust and also from new players to come in and say We come in without that negative brand. Firstly, recognized that trustees is easily given, but also your once taken away. It's very hard to be in back. So you're coming with integrity and intent, instant justice. We're we're recommending to banks to do, but there is a really opportunity here. Thio Yeah, show that actually, you know the organizations are there on the customers behalf and our go to align value and are going to provide service is solutions to appropriate for them and actually those that those that are left behind those that don't make that change because of the additional fluidity of being able to get a service like a separate to a product mayor. It's going to make it much more easier, much more fluid for people to move towards those that are gonna regain trust faster. There's a lovely piece of kind of regulatory support for that. Yeah,

spk_1:   36:05
Antonio, you put in the window about the need for security cyber security, because that's another area where access to banking is is really primer. You got the heat of use. You've got the fact that the older generations have a real difficulty using some

spk_0:   36:24
of the

spk_1:   36:25
security staff understanding the importance of it. They're nervous. So you got the nervousness about security. And then, on the other hand, the cyber security stuff also puts the onus on the burden on the user's, which is problematic, though, So all of these things are an opportunity to do banking better, though, and what I was trying to say before the before, the guy came back to drop my car up from the get go. Sorry about that, folks. Was basically if older people can't use your service is on online, they're gonna bring you up. Andi, if you're that service provider that the average global cost is around £12 per call for something as simple as a

spk_0:   37:07
part of

spk_1:   37:08
it reset. So when you're handling something more complex, like opening accounts, that's gonna cost you a heck of a lot of money. So that's a really financial opportunity for organizations. Thio either make money or save money or differentiate themselves

spk_0:   37:22
Fabulous point. And it's one we've seen reiterated over and over again in the numbers that were being working with organizations in the day.

spk_1:   37:30
Yeah, and it's not like my parents on this particular case didn't start either. You know, They went, Oh, yeah, we created the first account that was okay on, you know, um, but when we tried to link mine and your dad's together, then it became a real problem. So we ended up stopping doing it online, and we called the Nice Man and that called for the nice man means that actually, you've spent on two things you spent on your online service, and then you've had to spend on your offline Telephone service is well, you're you're doubling up on your cost of getting it right. If you flee and getting

spk_0:   38:02
it right in the

spk_1:   38:02
hole. Customer generally super important. I know

spk_3:   38:07
that just at one point you made and you're you shaken the confidence of your parents anymore. Said they're not going to try the online next time. Sorry.

spk_1:   38:17
Not a very good point. Very good point. So we're at the end of our time. Thank you, Christine. I need Thio off course. Thanks. Um, you know, my chri attacks and Bart clave tugging of the forelock to Barclays for doing such a good job in this area and then also highlight the fact there are other supporter Michael ing well, recently awarded the D and I Initiative of the Year award. Um, at the for disability diversity at inclusive tech Aligns Awards. So well done, Michael in well done. Tow bar Claes. And thank you to my clear taste because you do a great job on the captioning. Thank you very much, everyone. And I'm really looking forward to the chance on Tuesday night.

spk_0:   39:04
Thank you. Love these. Catch up with your