AXSChat Podcast with Thea Kurdi, Vice President at DesignABLE Environments

Hosted by Antonio Santos, Debra Ruh and Neil Milliken.

Thea Kurdi has nineteen years of experience consulting and teaching accessible architecture with a specialization in universal design. In her role as an accessibility consultant at one of Canada’s oldest and leading specialty firms, Thea has assisted design teams to realize the benefits of universal design and achieve higher levels of accessibility on projects within the education, health care, justice, institutional, commercial, residential, and entertainment sectors. Thea has completed drawing review for over 60 new and renovated buildings, completed building audits for over 150 buildings, and has been a lead or contributing author for over a dozen accessibility standards and manuals.

Thea has participated in the Ontario governments Built Environment forum reviewing accessibility in the Ontario Building Code (OBC) and Accessibility for Ontarian’s with Disabilities Act (AODA), the kick-off forum for the 3rd legislative review of the AODA with his Honour David Onley, federally at consultations on accessibility in architecture for the Canadians with Disabilities Act, and most recently for the new AODA Education standard development committee for both K to 12 and post-secondary accessible building design. She is also a board member with the Universal Design Network of Canada and ArtsBuild Ontario.

Thea Kurdi is a dynamic speaker known for her enthusiasm for teaching. Her most popular course is an Accessibility Bootcamp workshop which empowers participants by teaching them to see the barriers that surround us. She has presented keynote addresses and lectures at local and international events and post secondary design programs. From the human rights code to evidence-based design and increased marketability, Kurdi shares her passion for how accessibility is fundamental to successful architecture.

Transcript

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Hello and welcome
to access chat with.

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Delighted to be joined by
a member of our community today,

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he akurdi of designable
environments.

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There is joining us
from just outside Toronto

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and I'm going to massacre
Mississauga.

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Goodnight

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So, uhm.
It's uh, it's tricky,

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but anyway,
it's great to have you with us.

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Um, can you give us
a little bit of, uh,

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you know what you're working on

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and how you came to be working
in the field of access ability?

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'cause you're you're a great
member of our community.

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You're always contributing,

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but but yeah,
let's let's hear a bit about you

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and how how you came
to work in the field.

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Well, first,
can I just start by

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saying just how
overwhelmingly thrills?

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I am to be an access chat.
I look up to all all of you

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and he's just so love
this program

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and it's such an honor
to be here.

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How did I get into
Accessibility?

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Well, 20 years ago
I was finishing school

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and what we have here

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is I always wanted
to be an architect,

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but I graduated from school
at the end of the 80s

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and it was in University
of the 90s.

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I think. As you may remember,
the economy was bad then too.

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Parents business was struggling

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so I wasn't able
to stay in school

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and so my dream
of being an architect.

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You know that
that didn't happen,

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but I went back
to school in the.

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Late 90s and there is a program
called architectural technology

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and that was actually
a really interesting fit for me

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because I had on
my love of architecture.

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But I also had all this
computer backgrounds.

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My parents were
computer consultants

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and we were some of the first
people in our neighborhood

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who had micro computers.
I don't so the whole idea.

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We using computers
to do architecture

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and do 3D modeling and all
the rest of the text stuff

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and the role of
an architectural technologist

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is between the architects.

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Who's trying to make
the building?

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Who's gonna do
this fabulous thing?

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And the contractor
who has to try to figure out

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how to build this thing
with their attacks,

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describing and it was
really lucky

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because the president
of the company

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and now my business partner

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was the program coordinator
at that school

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and he was actually teaching
a course on universal design.

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Now my passion in architecture
was about sustainability

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and green design,

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and it took his course
because of litter is taken.

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Every course I could take
on that subject.

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And Universal Design seems like
it was an interesting one.

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And the very first day
he had us do two things.

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One we read the one of the laws
in our country.

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The Human Rights Code
which says buildings and spaces

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shall not discriminate against
people with disabilities.

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And so he had us read a story

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from the 70s called
the disabled village.

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An I don't know
if you've read this story,

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but it's a paradigm shift
where the entire village

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are people
who are using wheelchairs now.

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My definition of disability is
not just people inhale chairs.

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It's all different types
of disabilities,

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but this story was what
if everybody is wheelchairs

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and there's just a small
percentage of the population

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who are able bodied

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and so the story
sort of runs through

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how society thinks in the bias
and prejudice people can have.

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In this case it was against the.
Non disabled people.

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And how they built
their environment

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for everybody sitting down?

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Then you wouldn't need
to have 8 foot ceilings

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and Seven foot doors.

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You have a 5 foot door
or maybe even shorter.

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And so I'll be able
bodied people

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are the nondisabled people
had bruises on their foreheads

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from hitting their heads
on the door frame,

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and so instead
of fixing the doors

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and fixing the architecture,
the issued people helmets.

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And gave them body braces that
held him in a crouched position.

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And then you know people
had back problems,

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and they're all kinds
of you know,

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they just fix the building

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and the resistance was why
should we fix the building?

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Or how many of them are there?

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And it was just such a shock
to see it from the other side

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and really feel like
that's wrong

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that it transformed
my world turning point.

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and I was lucky enough.
I graduated that some.

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My professor then offered me
a position

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at designable environments

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and designers is one
of the coolest places to work.

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Honestly, it's like a think tank
about Accessibility.

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It's one of Canada's oldest
iaccessible in universal design

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consulting firms.

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It provides expertise to
the public and private sectors

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on creating built environments

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that meets the needs
of all people,

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including persons with
disabilities and the elderly.

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Our services are like and
that's why it's like working.

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I think tank we get
to see Accessibility

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for different vantage points.

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We work with design,
input and reviews.

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We do facility audits.

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We do Accessibility
compliance reviews.

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We do Accessibility,
standard developments

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and we do education
and training activities.

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So it's such a neat place
to work.

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Our team has a diversity
and depth of experience

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which is really unmatched
in our industry here in Canada.

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Although we have many great
firms that do this work as well,

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but we've been lucky enough
to work locally,

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nationally and internationally
on retail, entertainment,

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corporate, commercial,
healthcare, recreational,

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judicial, religious,
transportation, residential,

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and of course, education.

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We want to keep people safe
and places iaccessible,

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and it's really
not rocket science.

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How to do that,
but it does take some planning

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and considers things
that are not taught

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in most design
or hospitality education.

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So we see possibilities
because desirable environments

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Hindu focusing on Accessibility
for 30 years

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that many people
are just unaware

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of those resources or ideas.

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Our goal is to make
or help to make.

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It possible form for
as many people to be included

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and avoid the typical mistakes
that are often cost a fortune

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to fix after they've been
created than it would be

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if they just built it right
in the 1st place.

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Oh yeah, I know.

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The the the cost
of retrofitting access ability

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is really significant.
I I've got a question

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and this this is actually
I think really interesting.

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You said that you were studying.
Architectural technology.

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I think we are now
in a time where.

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Technology is imbedded
or becoming embedded

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in architecture far more.
No, we've got smart cities,

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but also sort
of smart buildings.

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You know, it's not just sensors,
but actuators.

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There's all sorts of stuff
being included

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in into the fabric of what
we're we're now building.

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How do
architectural technologists

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build access ability?

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Into the buildings
in the future.

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One of the great things
about working design iblees

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I'm not actually working

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as a typical
architectural technologist.

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I get to work exclusively
as an Accessibility specialist,

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but we're working
with the design firms

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or with the building owners.

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What's interesting is,
as you said, is.

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Technology starts
to sort of take cold is.

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There is an advantage sometimes
to having the opportunity

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to see what something
is going to look like

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before you actually
build it, right?

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So the 3D modeling and 3D

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walkthrough that you can take
through building

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some of the time
we're asking people to do.

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His try rendering the video
from a seated position.

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Change mind changing
and I have a lot

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who height
which is like a default

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set for a non disabled
or an ambulatory person.

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And what if it was down lower
and then more interesting

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Lee with some
of our other clients

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and this is like really
just brand new kind of stuff.

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What if you took
a video render or picture

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that you've done
a photo realistic picture?

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You've tried really hard
to make really accurate

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and what if you Blurt it out
like you had vision loss

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so that you could really only
see the light in the dark right?

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How can you navigate
through some paces place?

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Because I think so often and

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This is why
I've been focusing so much,

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I'm trying to get help
to education out.

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Like with the course
that I helped to develop

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with the Royal architecture
ways to do to Canada.

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Um, because so many people
are coming into this field,

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going through training.

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That just assumes
everybody's non disabled.

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And if you have
20 and 30 year olds

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who are in charge of design,
then all they're going to do

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is reflect
what's happening around them,

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so they're not really
going to understand.

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And that's also why I started
running what we call

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our Accessibility boot camp

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to really
get people to confront.

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Oh my gosh,
I didn't realize how much bias

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I had about what people
with disabilities

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could or should or can do,
or would want to do.

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And then really tried to dispel
the idea that a disability

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is something that's going
to happen to somebody else.

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Like maybe it's going to happen
to your grandparents.

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Or maybe it's going to happen
to somebody that you know,

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but it's never going to
happen to you.

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And if you think about it,
the really the whole premise

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of how we design right now
is really strange,

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because we're all 100% of us.

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If we're not born
with a disability.

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We're an illness, accident,
or aging away from getting one.

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So.

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It's better designed design,
flexible iaccessible inclusive

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design that works for everybody
over there

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course of their entire life.

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And so technology
can help us do that.

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Sometimes technology
can get into the way

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because architects will say
or building owners will say well

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if our building is confusing
to navigate or airport

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is confusing to navigate,

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we won't try to make sure
we have better architecture.

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Better design will try to get
some technology solution,

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will put something
on a smart phone.

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And the problem
with this type of thinking,

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of course is that often
non disabled people

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are some of the poorest
in our society.

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It's really hard to get a job
often because offices

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and buildings or workplaces
are not accessible.

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So saying to somebody here
we have a solution for that

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requires you to have smart phone

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with a data plan
to people who are,

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you know and associated
economic position

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to not be able
to afford those things.

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Be a barrier in and of itself.

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Yeah, so you you've got double
double exclusion.

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You've got digital exclusion,

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you've got the exclusion
of inaccessibility,

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and Tony.
I know you had a question.

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Yes, I know that
it is going to have it here.

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Fine finally,
finally meet values like to know

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know the face behind the tweets

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so it's great
to have you here today.

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I've been, I'm over I'm at.

238
00:11:23,770 --> 00:11:26,050
Just over the years
have a few colleagues of mine

239
00:11:26,050 --> 00:11:31,420
who study architecture
and there's plenty of events

240
00:11:31,420 --> 00:11:33,800
and conventions on architecture.

241
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,810
How do you see them on that part
of industry addressing?

242
00:11:38,810 --> 00:11:43,650
Assess ability is something that
they often talk at Congress is,

243
00:11:43,650 --> 00:11:47,990
or it so we prefer to talk
about good design and awards.

244
00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:49,590
I know what's the story.

245
00:11:51,270 --> 00:11:55,500
Yeah, it's it's interesting
that you say that we often see

246
00:11:55,500 --> 00:11:59,570
Accessibility in conferences
dealt with almost the same

247
00:11:59,570 --> 00:12:02,830
as the way it's dealt with
in the design process.

248
00:12:02,830 --> 00:12:04,680
It's usually done
as an afterthought,

249
00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:09,890
or is a sideshow as opposed
to what I was just saying about

250
00:12:09,890 --> 00:12:11,240
if the human experience

251
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,860
is a lifetime
of changing needs and abilities,

252
00:12:13,860 --> 00:12:16,810
then of course Accessibility
is integral to good design

253
00:12:17,940 --> 00:12:20,510
and This is why
when I did my text talk.

254
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,650
A year ago
and I published the article

255
00:12:23,650 --> 00:12:26,760
that top insider secrets to
what's stopping full inclusion

256
00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,220
in the built environment
and how you can help fix them.

257
00:12:31,230 --> 00:12:32,980
They were really like
almost 6 secrets.

258
00:12:32,980 --> 00:12:34,340
I mean,
clearly there not secrets,

259
00:12:34,340 --> 00:12:35,960
but they feel like
their secrets,

260
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,910
'cause nobody seems to know
about them

261
00:12:38,690 --> 00:12:41,050
and I go through sort of
what those secrets were,

262
00:12:41,050 --> 00:12:43,870
and then for things
that fundamentally

263
00:12:43,870 --> 00:12:46,960
I think would change design
if we could focus on it

264
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,420
before we hired
the architectural team.

265
00:12:49,420 --> 00:12:51,370
So what it needs to be done
pre design.

266
00:12:52,010 --> 00:12:54,110
To set everything up
for success.

267
00:12:57,850 --> 00:12:59,890
I can give you
a story of a hotel

268
00:12:59,890 --> 00:13:02,920
that was built a new hotel
that was built in Quark

269
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,130
an and there were
there was a couple

270
00:13:08,130 --> 00:13:12,180
and they
were able to do it to get in.

271
00:13:12,180 --> 00:13:13,400
The person was in a wheelchair

272
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,350
but then they were not able
to get out.

273
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,930
Because of the way
out the door was built

274
00:13:18,930 --> 00:13:21,980
and then they had to wait
for someone to come in.

275
00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:26,230
Now take order
all infrastructure of the door

276
00:13:26,230 --> 00:13:30,380
for the person to live.
And I also know, um,

277
00:13:31,230 --> 00:13:34,910
people who will bring who take
their own gear on Holidays.

278
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,100
To make sure that the bad
is at a certain size.

279
00:13:39,860 --> 00:13:42,580
So they know I need this
to do the adjustments

280
00:13:42,580 --> 00:13:44,370
'cause nobody's going to
do them for me,

281
00:13:44,370 --> 00:13:49,910
so people would travel,
have all their own personal axe

282
00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:52,670
to deal with
with an accessible toilet

283
00:13:52,670 --> 00:13:57,280
or an assessable bat so people
end up to come up with this

284
00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,220
Skype kind of solutions
at the same time,

285
00:14:00,220 --> 00:14:02,920
I'm almost sure that when you
are studying architecture

286
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:04,430
you are
really told

287
00:14:04,430 --> 00:14:06,650
about the trends,
the social trends.

288
00:14:07,420 --> 00:14:10,810
An aging is is one of them,
so it's quite impressive out.

289
00:14:10,810 --> 00:14:15,560
They don't look more to the to
the social side of architecture

290
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:17,260
and to the to the Megatrends.

291
00:14:18,590 --> 00:14:21,690
Absolutely, and I think like
that's what struck me

292
00:14:21,690 --> 00:14:24,970
is that when I was studying
so much about sustainability,

293
00:14:24,970 --> 00:14:28,240
we often looked at demographics
and so

294
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,260
if you look at how many
particularly first world

295
00:14:31,260 --> 00:14:33,110
countries are rapidly aging,

296
00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:36,470
I mean in Canada
we have more than 1000 people

297
00:14:36,470 --> 00:14:40,040
a day turning 65 in the states.

298
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:45,060
It's 10,000 people a day,
turning 65 like

299
00:14:45,060 --> 00:14:48,490
if you wanted to to like go
where the market is.

300
00:14:49,340 --> 00:14:53,100
You wanna go towards,
um, an end?

301
00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:54,660
You want to do sustainability.

302
00:14:54,660 --> 00:14:57,510
You want to be going towards
aging place?

303
00:14:57,510 --> 00:15:01,020
Generational housing.
You want to have adaptable,

304
00:15:01,020 --> 00:15:04,600
inflexible housing that people
can move into in their 40s.

305
00:15:05,300 --> 00:15:07,649
But still have the parents come
and visit them,

306
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,960
or if their child is born
with a disability still,

307
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,830
you know, be able
to stay in the communities

308
00:15:12,830 --> 00:15:15,270
that they love
and this is, I think,

309
00:15:15,270 --> 00:15:20,890
why particularly I was focusing
on the pre design solutions.

310
00:15:20,890 --> 00:15:22,140
It's two option.

311
00:15:22,140 --> 00:15:24,640
Would because we're not thinking
about Accessibility

312
00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,030
in something what we call in the
industry functional programming.

313
00:15:28,030 --> 00:15:29,640
And that's the stage
where we figure out

314
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:31,050
what all of the different
room types

315
00:15:31,050 --> 00:15:32,290
we're going to have our

316
00:15:32,290 --> 00:15:34,870
and how much space
is needed for each room.

317
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,310
So if you need to have
a turn circle

318
00:15:37,310 --> 00:15:38,690
or the clear floor space

319
00:15:38,690 --> 00:15:40,840
to access something
or any space,

320
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,830
or or how high can you reach
in some place?

321
00:15:43,830 --> 00:15:46,000
This is where you should be
thinking about it,

322
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,490
and because
it's not typically done,

323
00:15:47,490 --> 00:15:49,790
people just use
the same sort of solutions

324
00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:52,080
in the feasibility study stage,

325
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,650
which is also wanted
to pre design stages.

326
00:15:54,650 --> 00:15:56,700
You're figuring out
where you're going to build

327
00:15:56,700 --> 00:15:58,000
or where you're going

328
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,320
to which building
you're going to pick to.

329
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:01,590
Maybe rent space in.

330
00:16:01,590 --> 00:16:03,830
So this is something
that you could even think about

331
00:16:03,830 --> 00:16:06,000
is the building we're moving
into even accessible

332
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,290
so we can hire staff
with disabilities.

333
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:10,730
You have to put together
a budget.

334
00:16:10,730 --> 00:16:12,340
You have to select your sight,

335
00:16:12,340 --> 00:16:15,590
your picking features
so that you can make sure

336
00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:18,820
you can afford things later,
like power door operators,

337
00:16:18,820 --> 00:16:22,090
assisted listing systems
and like hoists.

338
00:16:22,090 --> 00:16:24,900
If you're going to have
an adult change place right

339
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,500
and then furniture fixture
in equipment list,

340
00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:30,190
these are the things
that populate our space,

341
00:16:30,190 --> 00:16:31,440
like this
is heartbreaking for me.

342
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,600
Sometimes I'll be working
with a braid architecture team

343
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:35,870
and they build the building

344
00:16:35,870 --> 00:16:37,850
and we actually make it
pretty accessible

345
00:16:37,850 --> 00:16:40,600
and then I go visit it after.
Opens in the client.

346
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,080
Unfortunately didn't review
their furniture

347
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,020
fixtures equipment
list for Accessibility

348
00:16:46,020 --> 00:16:48,250
and so it's been
completely sabotaged,

349
00:16:48,250 --> 00:16:50,040
so the building itself
is pretty accessible,

350
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,330
but nothing in its the photo
copiers are not accessible.

351
00:16:53,330 --> 00:16:55,730
You know the seating areas that
they've carefully arranged for.

352
00:16:55,730 --> 00:16:57,550
People are not accessible,

353
00:16:57,550 --> 00:16:59,280
and then there's a really
powerful tool

354
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,120
that we use for green design

355
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,590
called Accessibility
or commissioning.

356
00:17:04,210 --> 00:17:06,180
So in green design
you Commission of building

357
00:17:06,180 --> 00:17:07,390
at the end

358
00:17:07,390 --> 00:17:09,700
where the people
have promised that the.

359
00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:11,060
Heating and air conditioning.

360
00:17:11,060 --> 00:17:15,080
All the systems in the building
are going to be super efficient

361
00:17:15,730 --> 00:17:18,260
so that the operating POS
don't cost very much

362
00:17:18,260 --> 00:17:19,770
and if the commissioning shows

363
00:17:19,770 --> 00:17:21,720
that it's not
what's been promised,

364
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,420
then they have to fix it.
So what we've been trying to do

365
00:17:24,420 --> 00:17:26,300
is we were working with
some of their clients,

366
00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:28,500
adding Accessibility
commissioning

367
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:30,750
as a part of the contract
for the build,

368
00:17:30,750 --> 00:17:32,620
so whatever
Accessibility requirements

369
00:17:32,620 --> 00:17:35,400
have been placed
as a part of the contract.

370
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,190
If there are not at the end

371
00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:39,840
if you don't do
a commissioning or an audit.

372
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,990
And you're not there then.
Somebody else has to fix it.

373
00:17:42,990 --> 00:17:44,750
It's not.
Doesn't come back to the client

374
00:17:44,750 --> 00:17:47,380
to have to tear it out
and fix it later, so those are.

375
00:17:47,380 --> 00:17:49,760
Those are four
really powerful things

376
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,030
that if you're thinking
about like right now,

377
00:17:52,030 --> 00:17:53,770
I'm thinking I might
want to do something.

378
00:17:53,770 --> 00:17:55,490
Start thinking Accessibility,

379
00:17:55,490 --> 00:17:58,680
'cause That's the time
to make it the most affordable

380
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,170
and the least expensive.

381
00:18:00,170 --> 00:18:02,780
Difficult to achieve,
right, right?

382
00:18:02,780 --> 00:18:03,980
Anthea?

383
00:18:03,980 --> 00:18:06,410
The thing that always
confuses me

384
00:18:06,410 --> 00:18:09,850
is why aren't we designing
for humans?

385
00:18:09,850 --> 00:18:14,070
Like you know all humans
and I had August,

386
00:18:14,070 --> 00:18:16,800
the law, the ringtones
on my show,

387
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,770
human potential at work
a few years ago

388
00:18:18,770 --> 00:18:21,970
and he is a designer of very,
very talented designer.

389
00:18:21,970 --> 00:18:26,140
He is also an individual with
a pretty significant disability

390
00:18:26,140 --> 00:18:29,460
and he feels that
as a designer himself

391
00:18:29,460 --> 00:18:32,870
and award winning designer,
he designed Xbox.

392
00:18:32,870 --> 00:18:36,120
He worked for Pinterest.
I mean he's very brilliant man

393
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:40,240
and he said
that he feels that it is.

394
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:41,440
It is, you know,

395
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,520
people with disability
as no was saying in this.

396
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,060
In Tony was saying
they they learn

397
00:18:46,060 --> 00:18:49,220
to try to accommodate themselves
because they have no choice

398
00:18:49,220 --> 00:18:53,460
but he feels
that it is a design flaw

399
00:18:53,460 --> 00:18:58,850
that designers are not designing
with all humans in mind

400
00:18:58,850 --> 00:19:02,480
and so deciding
that certain parts of humans

401
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:04,970
were going to design for them.
'cause it's easier

402
00:19:04,970 --> 00:19:07,830
and we know how to do it
in our little policies

403
00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:10,520
and processes that
we've created work for them

404
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,030
but not designing
for our extreme users.

405
00:19:13,030 --> 00:19:14,650
I think is a loss
not only to those people

406
00:19:14,650 --> 00:19:15,860
that aren't included,

407
00:19:15,860 --> 00:19:18,140
but it also it is a loss,
I think,

408
00:19:18,140 --> 00:19:22,580
of opportunity of creativeness
of innovation in true inclusion.

409
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:26,140
So you know what I know
your work

410
00:19:26,140 --> 00:19:27,770
is trying to help in our work

411
00:19:27,770 --> 00:19:30,310
is trying to help breakdown
these barriers,

412
00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:33,640
but I would have
to say to designers,

413
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,280
why are you not designing
for all humans

414
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,480
and why are you deciding
that some human beings

415
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,420
don't deserve
to be designed for?

416
00:19:42,420 --> 00:19:43,930
and I understand
a lot of designers

417
00:19:43,930 --> 00:19:45,170
would come back and say,

418
00:19:45,170 --> 00:19:47,370
well, we're doing it the way
we were taught to do it.

419
00:19:47,370 --> 00:19:50,070
Yeah, but at some point
if you wanted to be a designer,

420
00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:53,010
I think you have to want
to make sure

421
00:19:53,010 --> 00:19:55,110
that you're designing
for all humans.

422
00:19:56,910 --> 00:20:00,180
Found your gonna like
that question so it's gonna say.

423
00:20:01,590 --> 00:20:03,320
Yeah, it's amazing to me

424
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,310
whether I'm, uh and this is
part of the reason

425
00:20:05,310 --> 00:20:07,070
why I'm trying
to get into schools,

426
00:20:07,070 --> 00:20:10,210
and if I can, and the very
first semester you know,

427
00:20:10,210 --> 00:20:12,710
and if I can and
the very first couple of weeks.

428
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,850
Because when I talk to I'm one
of the ways that I connected

429
00:20:16,850 --> 00:20:19,180
with Royal Architectural
Institute of Canada,

430
00:20:19,180 --> 00:20:22,100
also known as the REI.
See now, which is sort of like

431
00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:24,480
the American Institute
for architects.

432
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,990
Or the EA was that they held
a conference

433
00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:31,490
and they let me come in and do
my Accessibility boot camp and.

434
00:20:31,490 --> 00:20:32,880
I think with these conferences

435
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,820
all the most
senior people go right,

436
00:20:35,340 --> 00:20:38,150
and so these are people who've
been doing architecture for 1340

437
00:20:38,150 --> 00:20:43,850
or 50 years or so in the look
of shock on their face

438
00:20:43,850 --> 00:20:46,130
when I started talking
about a lifetime

439
00:20:46,130 --> 00:20:47,890
of changing needs and abilities,

440
00:20:47,890 --> 00:20:50,040
and I'm going to show you
the graphic that.

441
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:52,750
On Tuesday,
I'll show you the graphic

442
00:20:52,750 --> 00:20:55,200
that I used to do that with
and the look of.

443
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,940
Oh my God, and that's
overwhelming the response I get

444
00:20:59,940 --> 00:21:02,690
is I never thought
about it like that.

445
00:21:02,690 --> 00:21:07,220
You know, there's so much
as we talked about earlier bias,

446
00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:08,660
but there's also
so much assumption

447
00:21:08,660 --> 00:21:11,300
about what a disability means.

448
00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:17,320
So you ask me to tell the story
so I have multiple disabilities,

449
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,440
but I wasn't diagnosed
with my disabilities

450
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,960
until the very last year
of high school

451
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:24,730
because I was very bright.

452
00:21:24,730 --> 00:21:29,010
So growing up I was always
in the advanced enrich programs.

453
00:21:29,010 --> 00:21:30,680
And in the 70s and 80s.

454
00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:34,880
It never occurred to somebody
that I I

455
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,310
is a bright person
could have a disability

456
00:21:37,310 --> 00:21:40,260
so it couldn't spell anything.
My spelling was always bad.

457
00:21:42,970 --> 00:21:46,019
I'd write a story and it was
a brilliant story and I lose 50%

458
00:21:46,950 --> 00:21:50,390
because this is pre computers
so I lose 50% mark

459
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:52,090
because I couldn't
spell something

460
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,040
and I would sometimes
have trouble with math.

461
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,150
I would switch numbers in math

462
00:21:57,150 --> 00:21:58,590
and I want
to be sort of doing really well

463
00:21:58,590 --> 00:22:00,950
and then all of a sudden
I kind of go sideways

464
00:22:00,950 --> 00:22:04,580
solving a problem and maybe
like your processes perfectly,

465
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,090
but you know something wrong
with you

466
00:22:07,710 --> 00:22:10,570
so it was always presented like
you're not trying hard enough.

467
00:22:10,570 --> 00:22:12,600
And actually what I was doing
was I.

468
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,460
Actually, come up with
some of my own accommodations

469
00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:18,210
and I kind of had
a lot of my disability

470
00:22:18,970 --> 00:22:20,740
and it wasn't till very
last year of high school

471
00:22:20,740 --> 00:22:22,640
that it finally became aware

472
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,280
or some teacher
just put their foot down

473
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,520
and said we have to fix all this
and somethings wrong.

474
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,110
You're an we discovered.
I have a form of dyslexia

475
00:22:30,970 --> 00:22:34,170
then I need to wear glasses
and I have hearing loss.

476
00:22:34,170 --> 00:22:35,830
So yeah
I wasn't hearing everything

477
00:22:35,830 --> 00:22:37,280
that was happening
in the classroom

478
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,640
when I couldn't see everything
that was happening on the board

479
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,700
and I wasn't able to express
myself or spell.

480
00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:44,570
Thing so I can have great ideas.

481
00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:48,420
But in the 70s and 80s
he didn't have computers,

482
00:22:48,420 --> 00:22:51,290
so that is a combination
that has allowed me now

483
00:22:51,290 --> 00:22:54,220
as an adult
to teach at University

484
00:22:54,220 --> 00:22:56,880
to become a professional
to present at conferences,

485
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,310
to write articles, and that part
of my disability can disappear.

486
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,740
Although my staff has to help me
with my social media.

487
00:23:07,070 --> 00:23:08,780
So I think like the UM.

488
00:23:09,530 --> 00:23:12,070
The fundamental fact
that is not a part of education,

489
00:23:12,070 --> 00:23:14,810
like if you looked
at manufacturing, if there was.

490
00:23:14,810 --> 00:23:16,270
If we were creating a product

491
00:23:16,270 --> 00:23:18,170
that was fundamentally flawed
in some way.

492
00:23:18,170 --> 00:23:20,840
So in this case
not designing for people.

493
00:23:21,890 --> 00:23:24,600
If we were to look
at manufacturing process

494
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,570
that was creating a defective
product, we would go back

495
00:23:27,570 --> 00:23:31,170
and figure out how to fix
the manufacturing process.

496
00:23:31,170 --> 00:23:32,770
Redesign what was happening.

497
00:23:33,790 --> 00:23:35,480
That's not happening
in education,

498
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,700
so everybody had goes through
education,

499
00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:39,140
keeps coming out the other side

500
00:23:39,140 --> 00:23:42,750
with all the same flaws
and biases and Misunderstandings

501
00:23:42,750 --> 00:23:47,270
and lack of awareness of all
of the amazing opportunities.

502
00:23:47,270 --> 00:23:49,580
So one of the ways
I like to describe this

503
00:23:49,580 --> 00:23:51,410
just to make it
more relatable, is.

504
00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:54,100
Not in Canada
or when I was growing up,

505
00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:55,620
I give a lot of
international travel,

506
00:23:55,620 --> 00:23:57,730
but most of the kids
that I was with growing up

507
00:23:57,730 --> 00:23:59,330
with only ever went to Florida.

508
00:24:00,170 --> 00:24:02,680
So if you said
I'm going to the states

509
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,180
you meant you were going
to Disneyland in Florida.

510
00:24:05,930 --> 00:24:10,860
So my analogy is what if you
were trying to go to California?

511
00:24:12,410 --> 00:24:15,870
But if if you said to you know
your travel planner,

512
00:24:15,870 --> 00:24:19,870
I want to go to the states.
And they just assumed that meant

513
00:24:19,870 --> 00:24:22,720
you were going to Disneyland
or Disney World.

514
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,920
Sorry, so they booked
everything like you

515
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,130
were going there and then.

516
00:24:27,130 --> 00:24:29,750
If you got to the airport
and saw your flight

517
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:32,100
was going to Florida
and then said, well, no.

518
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:35,250
Actually I wanted to go
to Disneyland in California

519
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:37,870
like that's a whole
different trip

520
00:24:37,870 --> 00:24:41,920
and it doesn't necessarily cost
more to do one versus the other.

521
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,400
But if I decide at the airport

522
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,800
so for example
at the start of design,

523
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,849
I didn't want to go to Florida.
I wanted to go to California.

524
00:24:51,590 --> 00:24:54,970
And added costs so you can see
where people start to think.

525
00:24:54,970 --> 00:24:56,570
Accessibility so expensive.

526
00:24:57,100 --> 00:24:59,730
No, it's when did you
start thinking about it

527
00:24:59,730 --> 00:25:03,800
or worse you fly to Florida
and then realize

528
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,560
Oh no, I meant I want to
Disneyland in California

529
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,620
and then try to rebook
their vacation.

530
00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:12,050
So I think
the education part is key.

531
00:25:13,870 --> 00:25:15,880
Yeah, and it's it's.

532
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,250
It's not the cost
of access ability,

533
00:25:18,250 --> 00:25:22,220
it's the cost of failing to plan
to deliver excess ability

534
00:25:23,070 --> 00:25:28,660
that is often what is prohibited
is retrofitting is is expensive.

535
00:25:28,660 --> 00:25:32,220
You know you booking that.
Flight at the last minute.

536
00:25:32,220 --> 00:25:35,920
Changing your flights
from from Florida to California.

537
00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:40,810
That's gonna cost you a packet.
So totally agree.

538
00:25:40,810 --> 00:25:43,270
I think it's
a really nice analogy

539
00:25:44,030 --> 00:25:47,710
and I also totally relate
with the whole late diagnosis

540
00:25:48,340 --> 00:25:52,640
thing too.
So.

541
00:25:54,340 --> 00:25:58,970
How do we inculcate
this better into?

542
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,180
In terms of architecture
and Design,

543
00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:07,540
'cause actually in in the UK?
It is taught.

544
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,390
Uhm, but what's interesting
is that it doesn't

545
00:26:11,390 --> 00:26:14,880
necessarily filter
through into the housing stock,

546
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,340
so we a few months back
had Anna Dixon

547
00:26:19,340 --> 00:26:23,180
on from the Center
for aging better,

548
00:26:24,090 --> 00:26:27,100
and she mentioned several things
that you just mentioned

549
00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:30,700
about housing where you can
agent place that design

550
00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:34,500
so that you don't have
to move and

551
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:38,990
and you could design a building
that is flexible enough

552
00:26:38,990 --> 00:26:41,890
to be converted to meet your
needs as you go through life.

553
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,640
How how do we inculcate
that into the the learning

554
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,940
and more importantly,
into the mainstream?

555
00:26:49,940 --> 00:26:53,650
Because although people might
learn it, they don't apply it.

556
00:26:54,380 --> 00:26:56,560
So the housing stock
that gets built

557
00:26:57,130 --> 00:27:00,110
is for the most part small.

558
00:27:00,110 --> 00:27:07,390
It's on multiple stories,
multiple levels with difficulty,

559
00:27:08,050 --> 00:27:10,570
narrow corridors
that you'll have difficulty

560
00:27:10,570 --> 00:27:12,170
getting through doors.

561
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,870
Some of that
I'm sure relates to cost.

562
00:27:18,770 --> 00:27:22,010
Because it's cheaper
to build smaller

563
00:27:22,610 --> 00:27:28,260
and you guys on the other side
of the Atlantic

564
00:27:29,410 --> 00:27:33,150
have much more generous space
in your buildings

565
00:27:33,150 --> 00:27:37,820
than than we do here.
Generally 'cause we like quaint.

566
00:27:39,550 --> 00:27:47,470
For uh, for that,
read small and cramped, but uhm.

567
00:27:47,470 --> 00:27:52,470
But there also.
It's how how do we change that?

568
00:27:52,470 --> 00:27:55,790
Because I I do think
that there needs to be a change

569
00:27:55,790 --> 00:27:57,110
in some things have changed

570
00:27:57,110 --> 00:27:58,810
so that you go
to a new house now.

571
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,280
In the UK. The socket
will be at waist height.

572
00:28:04,980 --> 00:28:07,930
So all of the electric sockets
will be at waist height

573
00:28:07,930 --> 00:28:10,500
so that they've made
that change right?

574
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:13,040
So they're not on
the floor anymore.

575
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,310
You don't?
You don't have to reach down to.

576
00:28:17,170 --> 00:28:19,010
Yeah, they're not
wheelchair inaccessible

577
00:28:19,010 --> 00:28:20,240
there at waist height.

578
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,700
Now sometimes
that drives me crazy

579
00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:26,570
because I've got wires
hanging up my walls,

580
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:28,830
but I understand
why it's done so.

581
00:28:32,010 --> 00:28:33,990
The deep.

582
00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:36,060
Yeah, he didn't think
about what that meant.

583
00:28:36,060 --> 00:28:37,490
They just raise the plug.

584
00:28:37,490 --> 00:28:41,030
That's not good design either,
and I think like to your point,

585
00:28:41,030 --> 00:28:44,520
there's a couple of things
that I want to unpack there one.

586
00:28:45,650 --> 00:28:48,920
Yes, discrimination
cost less than the way

587
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,700
we've been designing
is discriminate

588
00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:54,620
Tori against the largest
minority group that we have

589
00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:57,400
an it's
the one minority group.

590
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,220
We are almost all of us
going to join.

591
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:02,660
So it makes no sense.

592
00:29:02,660 --> 00:29:04,200
I mean,
even if you could justify

593
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,700
discriminating against
the largest minority group.

594
00:29:07,310 --> 00:29:09,180
But if imagine
if you were to say

595
00:29:09,180 --> 00:29:11,560
this housing
discriminates against,

596
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,180
you, know, fill in the blank
for any other minority group

597
00:29:14,180 --> 00:29:17,520
and the people would lose
their minds, right?

598
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,320
Like if you had
a racial minority

599
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,940
if you had a religious group
at a particular ethnicity.

600
00:29:23,730 --> 00:29:26,460
Like people would lose it
if you said

601
00:29:26,460 --> 00:29:29,450
that these type of housing
is discriminate Tori

602
00:29:29,450 --> 00:29:33,150
and so it's been
really important for me

603
00:29:33,150 --> 00:29:35,650
and it's been
a really big change

604
00:29:35,650 --> 00:29:37,570
to really start using that word.

605
00:29:37,570 --> 00:29:40,510
It's not a nice word.
I don't like to have to use it.

606
00:29:40,510 --> 00:29:41,800
But when people
are saying to me,

607
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:43,400
but that's how we always do it.

608
00:29:44,740 --> 00:29:48,400
Or yes, it might cost more.
Um?

609
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,090
The way we've been
doing it is wrong.

610
00:29:52,970 --> 00:29:55,770
And who wants to be associated
with discrimination?

611
00:29:55,770 --> 00:29:59,080
Whose brand?
We are proud to discriminate

612
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:00,690
against our largest
minority group

613
00:30:00,690 --> 00:30:02,990
like who wants to say that,
you know?

614
00:30:02,990 --> 00:30:07,240
I think there's a I keep trying
to sell this to developers

615
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,520
is an enormous
opportunity to get ahead.

616
00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:11,760
This is a business opportunity

617
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,350
to to say we're doing
something innovative here.

618
00:30:15,350 --> 00:30:16,840
We're going to take care of you

619
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,400
for your entire life
for your family life,

620
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,520
your loved ones, your coworkers
were going to make sure

621
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,520
you have a place to live in
the neighborhoods that you love.

622
00:30:26,860 --> 00:30:29,460
For as long as you
possibly can,

623
00:30:29,460 --> 00:30:32,290
you know in the states
they have started.

624
00:30:32,290 --> 00:30:34,050
I've seen some developers
marketing it

625
00:30:34,050 --> 00:30:35,730
as generational housing

626
00:30:35,730 --> 00:30:38,130
and Florida's
got some amazing stuff

627
00:30:38,130 --> 00:30:40,590
that's been happening
in Winnipeg

628
00:30:40,590 --> 00:30:44,240
or just outside Winnipeg.
We have a Bridgewater community

629
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,740
where half of the development
was developed.

630
00:30:46,740 --> 00:30:51,800
Is all agent place and visible
and adaptable housing know,

631
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,090
step entry.

632
00:30:53,090 --> 00:30:55,590
Other types of features
and it's beautiful

633
00:30:56,110 --> 00:30:57,430
and it was done so well.

634
00:30:57,430 --> 00:30:59,930
My designers that
that was the housing

635
00:30:59,930 --> 00:31:02,170
that sold out first
in that development,

636
00:31:02,170 --> 00:31:04,280
so it's not that
it has to look ugly,

637
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,110
although people who haven't
been trained well in it

638
00:31:07,110 --> 00:31:09,020
will assume it's going
to be institutional,

639
00:31:09,020 --> 00:31:10,400
or it can be horrible.

640
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,970
Or like in your situation
where they didn't think about

641
00:31:12,970 --> 00:31:16,210
raising it up to waist level,
just means lots of wires

642
00:31:16,210 --> 00:31:18,630
which everybody
is going to think is ugly.

643
00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:20,790
There are some costs
associated with it

644
00:31:20,790 --> 00:31:22,480
if you're going to
put power door operators.

645
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,950
If you're going to have assisted
listening, there are some costs.

646
00:31:25,950 --> 00:31:30,770
But if that's the cost of doing
business right of wider door,

647
00:31:30,770 --> 00:31:32,740
should be the typical size door,

648
00:31:32,740 --> 00:31:36,400
then the size door reason
right now is the wrong size,

649
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:37,630
but cost less.

650
00:31:37,630 --> 00:31:40,370
Well, let's change
the typical door

651
00:31:40,370 --> 00:31:42,320
and then that becomes
by volume

652
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,070
the less at least
expensive door to use.

653
00:31:45,070 --> 00:31:46,720
So I think there's
a whole bunch of stuff

654
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,930
about how people
think about it,

655
00:31:49,580 --> 00:31:53,580
what examples they've seen
an then really challenging them.

656
00:31:55,270 --> 00:31:56,990
Sticking to what
we've always been doing

657
00:31:56,990 --> 00:31:59,570
is not the way out of this,

658
00:31:59,570 --> 00:32:01,620
and it really
is discrimination, so.

659
00:32:03,310 --> 00:32:05,050
Wholeheartedly agree.

660
00:32:05,050 --> 00:32:07,260
I think that there's
a couple of things

661
00:32:07,260 --> 00:32:10,460
I want to tie in before we close
'cause we're coming to a close.

662
00:32:12,660 --> 00:32:14,880
I know time flies
when you're having fun,

663
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,180
so um, the regulation
is really important

664
00:32:19,180 --> 00:32:21,920
because regulation done
in the right way.

665
00:32:22,870 --> 00:32:26,170
Can start changing the way
the industry behaves

666
00:32:26,170 --> 00:32:29,530
and we've and we talked
before about.

667
00:32:31,650 --> 00:32:33,790
You were interested
in sustainability.

668
00:32:33,790 --> 00:32:36,950
I've I have a personal
hobby horse so I like to ride

669
00:32:36,950 --> 00:32:40,010
which is tying the whole idea
of sustainability,

670
00:32:40,010 --> 00:32:44,350
inaccessibility together,
and what you talked about was,

671
00:32:44,350 --> 00:32:47,130
yes, it's cheap
to do to discriminate.

672
00:32:47,130 --> 00:32:51,140
Actually it's not, but but the
cost is borne by someone else,

673
00:32:51,140 --> 00:32:52,790
so it's an external AT,
and

674
00:32:52,790 --> 00:32:57,360
This is why I keep
referring to in excess ability

675
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,470
as being like pollution
because.

676
00:33:01,310 --> 00:33:05,360
Is the the the polluters
not paying at the moment?

677
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,060
So we need to shift the cost
of that externality

678
00:33:09,060 --> 00:33:12,510
back onto the people that are
causing the cost to society.

679
00:33:13,250 --> 00:33:15,520
And when we do that
through regulation

680
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,930
and do it in a fair manner
then it will absolutely start

681
00:33:19,930 --> 00:33:21,690
changing the way
that things get delivered

682
00:33:21,690 --> 00:33:23,530
and hopefully will do it
in a way

683
00:33:23,530 --> 00:33:28,860
that is also pleasing on the eye
and designed beautifully

684
00:33:28,860 --> 00:33:32,220
because it can be we can
do beautiful inclusive design.

685
00:33:32,220 --> 00:33:34,870
It's possible people so, um.

686
00:33:36,250 --> 00:33:41,470
Rant over just to say
that we need

687
00:33:41,470 --> 00:33:45,990
to think Microlink Barclays
access and my cleartext

688
00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:49,060
for keeping us
on their keeping as accessible

689
00:33:49,060 --> 00:33:52,930
and look forward to you
joining us on Twitter

690
00:33:52,930 --> 00:33:55,110
for the chat on Tuesday.
Thank you so much.

691
00:33:55,890 --> 00:33:57,789
Thank you so much again
for having me.

692
00:33:59,780 --> 00:34:04,640
Keep talking. Love having years
are part of our community.

693
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,880
Thank you so much guys,
thank you.