AXSChat Podcast with Mike Gifford Susanna Laurin & Timo Stollenwerk

Hosted by Antonio Santos, Debra Ruh and Neil Milliken.

This Week’s chat is about authoring tools. When we produce content for the web we use authoring tools to publish. How these tools can help produce accessible content can have a profound impact on the overall inclusiveness of the internet.

Mike Gifford is the founder of OpenConcept Consulting Inc, which he started in 1999. Since then, he has been particularly active in developing and extending open source content management systems to allow people to get closer to their content. Before starting OpenConcept, Mike had worked for a number of national NGOs including Oxfam Canada and Friends of the Earth.

Susanna Laurin is Chief Research and Innovation Officer at Funka. Susanna has more than 20 years experience in working with disability-related issues at senior management level. She is a frequent international lecturer and debater and she serves on a number of program committees for conferences in the field of accessibility. In Sweden and Norway, she is a technical expert in several standardisation committees.

Timo Stollenwerk is a Plone core developer and founder of kitconcept, a Plone solution provider from Bonn, Germany. He is a member of the Plone Framework Team, the Plone Release Team, the Plone REST API team and he is leading the Plone Testing & Continuous Integration team.

Transcript

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NEIL: Hello and welcome to AXSChat.

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We've got a full roster for you today, we've

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two, Mike Gifford and Susanna Laurin and we don't

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normally have a triumvirate of guests, so welcome all.

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Susanna, we've had you on multiple times,

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you're now the Chief Research Officer for Funka.

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Mike, again, we've had you on and we've been talking

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about Drupal accessibility and today the topic is about

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accessibility in all three clauses and Timo would you

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care to tell us about where you come from and how you

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got involved in accessibility that would be really

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great.

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TIMO: I'm Timo and born in Germany and I'm a clone

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cord developer since more than ten years, Plone is an

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open source content management system

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written in Python.

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It's used a lot in governments and universities, so

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accessibility is and has always been a very important

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topic, and basically for all our projects that we have.

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Yeah, we recently started to join Mike and Susanna in

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this Funka led project about accessibility to improve

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accessibility of authoring tools and this is

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how we get together. Yeah.

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NEIL: Thank you. So, Susanna, you

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approached us about this a while back

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and I was very excited because I know how

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important and also talking with Mike how

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important the impact of authoring tools

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is on the accessibility of content for the work.

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But can you tell us about how the project

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came about and what it contains?

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Or the intent of it is.

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SUSAN: Yeah it is actually two part project so we

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did a pre-project first or pilot as it is called in

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European funding where we had an idea that web

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accessibility can be enhanced or could be more

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successful if the authoring tools could

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provide some kind of accessibility by default.

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And when we managed to prove our point by doing some

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research, then we got the opportunity to do it go to

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the next phase where you actually do things, that's

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where we are now and that's when we built this cluster

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of leading web accessibility tool providers in Europe

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and work together with them, so it is not only my team

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but other partners in the project and we try to work

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together so ensure we provide accessibility features by

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authoring tools about I then we make prototypes and

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test them and if they are good enough which I hope then

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they will be presented to the world so all authoring

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tools on the market can use these features and there be

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help web authors to create accessible content in an

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easier way. So, one of the reasons we want to

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do this and the reason the commission is

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funding it is that we have shown in research

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and I think this is also something known to

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others, but more than 50% of the accessibility

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problems in websites are created by humans,

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by the web authors because they

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normally are not accessibility experts.

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So, we now have approximately 7 million interfaces in

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Europe that are covered by the new legislation and even

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if we as accessibility experts, we would be happy to

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train all these people, that would be really good for

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us because we would have things to do for a million

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years or so, but that it just won't scale.

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If we need to train all these authors to do the right

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thing that will just, we will not succeed.

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So, something needs to be automated and the tools

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really need to help all these authors

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that are not accessibility experts

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that's the basic, key idea in this.

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NEIL: Yes, excellent. So, I think that we

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see in this our daily lives all the time.

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We can work on the structure of a website, we can

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produce a framework that is for the most part

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accessible and then you hand it over to people to

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maintain it and they throw up a whole bunch of

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inaccessible content. So, and we can't expect

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them to be experts, like we don't expect

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them to be security experts, why do we

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expect people that are creating content to

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necessarily understand this in depth.

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I mean, we need to provide the tools, absolutely.

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Sorry Antonio did you want to ask a question.

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ANTONIO: You are mentioning people WHO are building

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websites but today many people are independent

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bloggers, they write their own content, they do that

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actively and they also need, to make their content

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accessible so it is really interesting to see something

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like that happen because this will help to

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democratise access.

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MIKE: It was interesting to see the Webbing Million

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Study and see how so much the web has got less

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accessible over the last year.

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And, that's really a discouraging thing for those of us

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who are passionate about accessibility but there were a

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few exceptions to that and Grouple, Jumala and Gatsby

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were three of the systems that actually had a

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significant difference between this year and last year

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in terms of the amount of I think number of

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accessibility errors that got caught on the home page

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and I know part of that is because of the work being

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done on fixing these problems and changing the

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culture around accessibility in the community.

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But also, that we've built opportunities to make it

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harder to forget the old text on images or to put

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multiple H1 tags into your text because that's the size

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you'd like it to be.

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There are all kinds of sub offers make and we were in a

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great position to try and bring in a bunch of ATAG

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requirements, that's Authoring Tools Accessibility

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Guidelines and we brought a number of those

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recommendations to try and make it as easy

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as possible for authors do the right thing

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and we haven't done enough with it

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because it suddenly takes a lot of time and effort to

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change the offering interface to support authors

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better, but something that's really incredibly valuable

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in the long term. Especially if you're dealing

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with millions of websites

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that need to have accessible content.

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DEBRA: I want to maybe take the

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conversation back a step if that's OK.

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And first of all, I know that when we send everybody

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home you know a lot of countries and everybody home to

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work from home that's when we really saw a lot of the

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accessibility gaps that we've all been talking about.

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We also, I know in the States, I hear all the time from

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corporations complaining that the accessibility experts

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in the United States that we're expecting them to solve

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the technological problem in a man newly way and that

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doesn't work with these gigantic organisations, but I

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know who you all are, but I want to make sure our

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audience knows. Maybe they didn't see the

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episodes you were on before.

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Can with he take a minute to reintroduce who you are,

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Mike I know you're helping with projects, Suzanna

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you're helping with this project, but, can we just back

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up for a second and do some quick introductions of who

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you are and why you're involved with this project and

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then my question would be is once again, how are we not

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I mean it is such a good idea but it seems to me that

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some vendors might really want a fuss about the way

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you're going. But I actually believe that what

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I've heard so far and I got an email about it today,

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that the steps you're taking it seems very logical to me.

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I think this is actually a very powerful thing you're

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doing that we all need to get behind which is why I'm

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glad we're supporting you on AXSChat.

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I want to make sure everybody knows

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who you are if you don't mind.

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Let's start with Susanna, and Mike and Timo, give a

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quick introduction who with you and we'll make sure the

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episode that you are on before we put that on the

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marking so people can listen to those

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episodes as well. Susanna.

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SUSANNA: Yes, so, I am the chief research and

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innovation officer at a small consultancy

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in Europe called Funka. And I have been

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involved in the accessibility world in 20 years or more.

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I'm currently doing a lot of work for the European

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Commission, I have been leading the WADex sub group

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which is the WADex accessibility directive expert group

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and I do a lot of strategic consulting for national

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governments in member states and I'm very much into

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trying to scale accessibility to actually work in real

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time because with the web accessibility directive we

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have a new push for accessibility but mush of the

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things we've been doing in the years is very manual and

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high quality and that doesn't help the immature markets

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so we believe, we need do both with the need to be very

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strategic but we also need to be very hands on and

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that's where the automation comes in in my view.

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MIKE: President and CEO of OpenConcept Consulting,

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we're web developing company, but that specialises in

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Grouple but we've been doing a lot of work on

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accessibility on group lead accessible lead for the

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last decade in the community and really believe in

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fixing the problem at the source and that there's so

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much that can be done in any project, any software

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project to fix the problem upstream to identify what

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they are and address those and then done a lot of work

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looking at the technological fixes that we need.

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But we're looking more and more at the bigger the

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bigger organisational issues, how do we fix that?

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How do we look at procurement? How do we

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look at the culture within organisations?

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How do we change those so that we can then

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really begin to value accessibility and not

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just as a technological system but

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amongst many other systems and organisations.

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NEIL: I think that's a really good point Mike

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accessibility is both a technical thing but also a

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attitudinal and organisational cultural issue that we

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need to solve. We can teach people the how to,

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give them the technical skills but we still need

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to change the way we do business, change

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our processes, look at the whole

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totality of the business ecosystem, if we want to get

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this right. That's going to take us a while to be

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honest, but I'm glad that you're on board with

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this, and that you're looking at the from

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the right end and looking to do

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this systematically rather than sort of, and rather

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than fixing the broken output. Does anyone

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have ideas what are the things that we can

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do to address some of these systematic issues because I

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think there are a number?

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TIMO: I think in my mind it's go ahead.

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So, for me accessibility is like, one part of a radar,

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ecosystem or problem because like modern web projects

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are incredibly complex because you have so many

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different ways of how you can structure content or

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requirements for instance.

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I mean we have in this legislation like now so all

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projects we do in the Government's sector or for

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universities need to be accessible but they also need,

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so all clients need for instance consistent corporate

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design because the designer put a lot of effort into

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the design and they want consistent corporate design

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and they want a system that's really easy to use so

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both the front end and the editing back end so they

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have the training costs are low and when we started to

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reinvent Plone which was in the market for more than

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ten or fifteen years and took a step back and thought

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how will we solve that problem or all those problems at

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the same time that we have in every single project that

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we do, we came with the idea or the only thing solution

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at least in my mind or in the mind of our colleagues

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was to radically simplify things how we do things.

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For instance in the editing environment we used to have

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very powerful editors that could do everything so you

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could do headline that could be green or whatever and

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what we saw in projects was that most of our projects

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we stripped down the options that the users had, most

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options that did not make much sense.

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And that helped us to maybe put more focus on what

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matters on those web projects and reduce the

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complexities on all these levels, accessibility,

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corporate design, and everything and that helped us a

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lot at least in our projects to in a certain sense to

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simplify things to be able to tackle all those

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different and bring everything together you can't

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tackle accessibility on its own because it is not a

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set, it is not a technical problem only it is a

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question how you write, who writes how easy also the

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authoring environment is which is what the Funka

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project is about.

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So it's all connected and in the end it is a very

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complex problem that we have to solve and the more

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option that is we give the more complex this problem

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becomes so our solution was to simplify things and make

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the system easier to use for everybody right.

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ANTONIO: Can you tell us about your road map and

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what you have planned there?

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TIMO: So, you mean the technical road map?

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So I guess I have to give a bit of background so Plone

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is an open source content management system type three

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Grouple you name it and they were all self aside

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rendered so you have the lank, Java, Python, it renders

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the page and deliveries the page and then a few years

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ago, four to five years ago web technology shifted

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driven by companies like Google or Facebook that

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published large open source or JavaScript frameworks

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and nowadays web development happens a lot in the

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browser. So, we have this yeah a lot of the

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computation of what happens in the modern

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website happens in the browse they are JavaScript

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so what we saw in recent years in all open source

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CMSs and commercial CMSs, and web based

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is they managed to write front ends and that was

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technology driven but at the same time we used this

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opportunity in the Plone community to take a step back

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and think about what is the core idea of our CMS, and

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that was for instance the ease of use that would make

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it really easy for editors to create content.

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And that was one of our core ideas so that was driven

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by technology or by the change in technology so we had

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to rewrite the systems but we tried to incorporate all

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those problems that are described like accessibility,

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consistent corporate design, ease of use, low training

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cost and all that, all the experience that we had in

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the last ten years and try to come up with a new system

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that improved the situation on all those fronts and

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this is what we're currently doing.

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This is our challenge that we're facing right now and

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we're happy that we're in the accessibility project so

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that we let the accessibility is really a first class

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settle Zen and I love the discussions that we have with

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the other open source or commercial contributors to

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discuss those things how to improve things there, but

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at the same time, also improve all the other things

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that I mentioned.

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ANTONIO: So, Timo I live in Germany and I'm sure

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there's a lot of meetups in the city to discuss all

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sorts of technical topics on technology.

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From now to the moment that someone who is going to be

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able to use this authoring tool what is our journey,

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are you planning to somehow go into the steps of having

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meetups engaging evangelising, tell us the story.

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TIMO: Yes absolutely. Eight years ago I decided

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together with my girlfriend to move to

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Barcelona to a new city, I didn't speak

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Spanish or Catalan for that matter and the first thing

305
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I did was I noticed that there was one guy who was in

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the Funka community he was in Barcelona from Germany

307
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and I never met him but when I moved there I contacted

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him and he was one of the organisers of the local

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meetup and I jumped in and then at some point we had

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three meetups at the same time the Python, Plone and

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scope meetup or whatever right. And today

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the Python meetup in the Barcelona is among

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the top ten of all Python users groups in the world

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even. And when I moved back to Bonn, I continued with that,

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so I found the Python user group in Bonn we have a

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Plone user group and when we moved to JavaScript, I

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found the JavaScript meetup here in Bonn.

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n and we're aweing a react so we're active in the open

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source community and we're doing that a lot of.

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I got go to a lot of conferences and tell people about

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our journey and try to get feedback so this is an

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important part of my job and what I love doing right

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talking to people and exchanges ideas showing them what

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we do and talk about it, yeah.

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DEBRA: Mike I know that you or maybe you're talking

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right now but you're talk to yourself, so I was going

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to give the mic to you but:

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MIKE: Thank you.

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DEBRA: I know you'd made a comment in the chat

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window I wanted to make sure we gave the mic to you.

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MIKE: So, I believe the authors project we four

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authors cluster, Susanna can speak to more to that and

333
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broader plans to with the collective of content

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publishing tools that are getting and involved.

335
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I think that there is a definitely an effort to raise

336
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awareness of the project by creating a website and

337
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engaging social media, by talking in venues like this.

338
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It is harder to go off and have meetups given the

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pandemic that we are May. I'm not sure when

340
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the meetup culture will emerge again

341
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and when people are feeling safe to come back into bars

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and have conversations and a lot of people are still

343
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not looking for another opportunity to be on

344
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Zoom in the day. So, I think that there's a

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question as to whether, how

346
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meetups will factor into the future of this, but

347
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there's definitely a lot of opportunity to try and

348
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bring together different tools.

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One of them is that I'm quite hopeful in is that if we

350
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bring together different content tools that have tried

351
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to address problems for the authoring environment we

352
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can learn from and evaluate the best practices, we can

353
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share what is being done with Plone and Grouple and

354
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other systems whether it is Sync Editor or what have

355
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you and we can learn from those and try to incorporate

356
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those best practices into our own products.

357
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And by sharing and engaging with each other and

358
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learning and listening to each other we can do that.

359
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And the other thing I want to keep coming back to is I

360
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think a lot of the reason the authoring interface isn't

361
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generally addressed is because it is hard work.

362
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And it takes a lot of effort to address and to fix the

363
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authoring interface and so it takes a good collective

364
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effort to make it happen.

365
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Grouple's done all the interest work on name tag in

366
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Grouple 8 and there's hundreds and thousands of Grouple

367
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8 websites out there and we haven't as a community to

368
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determine whether or not the changes we've made has

369
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actually made a significant improvement to the

370
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authoring experience, there hasn't been the space and

371
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the time and energy, we created these ideas we put them

372
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out there and we hope there's been a difference.

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We heard some, some comments and feedback from people

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about that, but we don't have real evidence to

375
00:23:01,151 --> 00:23:03,971
determine whether or not there has been a substantial

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improvement. And I think this is the case for every

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authoring tool out there is that people put the

378
00:23:09,081 --> 00:23:11,331
information out there, they try and see if

379
00:23:11,331 --> 00:23:13,741
there's a result but there's no way

380
00:23:13,741 --> 00:23:17,408
yet to steady to evaluate what are the right approaches

381
00:23:17,408 --> 00:23:22,661
around how to, how to actually build in authoring

382
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environment that supports authors to create accessible

383
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content. But we're getting there now, thanks to

384
00:23:29,011 --> 00:23:34,234
Susanna and function as the work we've got from this cluster.

385
00:23:34,514 --> 00:23:37,791
DEBRA: I want to ask a real quick question to three

386
00:23:37,791 --> 00:23:41,511
of you and Susanna you start with this, but I think

387
00:23:41,511 --> 00:23:45,461
this is a fascinating project but I'm trying to in my

388
00:23:45,461 --> 00:23:48,891
mind put pieces together with I know this is a big

389
00:23:48,891 --> 00:23:52,211
conversation, but, I would like to understand from the

390
00:23:52,211 --> 00:23:56,981
three of you starting with you Susanna, what you know

391
00:23:56,981 --> 00:23:59,871
what is your best hope for this work that you're doing

392
00:23:59,871 --> 00:24:02,261
that would happen? Right now, things are so

393
00:24:02,261 --> 00:24:04,731
confusing with accessibility. People like you

394
00:24:04,731 --> 00:24:07,261
said Mike, that they don't even know

395
00:24:07,261 --> 00:24:09,551
what they're doing is working or not.

396
00:24:09,551 --> 00:24:12,561
So, what do you all wish that you would publish?

397
00:24:12,561 --> 00:24:14,781
What do you wish the world would do to get mind you to

398
00:24:14,781 --> 00:24:17,191
make this really work?

399
00:24:17,191 --> 00:24:20,241
Because I think, that is probably going to be very

400
00:24:20,241 --> 00:24:22,531
interesting to the audience because, from everything

401
00:24:22,531 --> 00:24:25,281
I'm hearing I want to help but I'm not exactly still

402
00:24:25,281 --> 00:24:27,281
sure how to help.

403
00:24:27,281 --> 00:24:30,848
SUSANA: I think there's two things in this one is in

404
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,290
in project we have funding to really make the user

405
00:24:34,290 --> 00:24:37,030
testing that Mike is talking about that I think all the

406
00:24:37,030 --> 00:24:39,610
authoring tools have in common that they do things and

407
00:24:39,610 --> 00:24:41,860
they have some features for accessibility but they also

408
00:24:41,860 --> 00:24:45,090
don't know really what is most helpful or not and we

409
00:24:45,090 --> 00:24:50,080
now have the resources to do testing and to prove or at

410
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,135
least agree on what is the best practice.

411
00:24:52,135 --> 00:24:54,996
That's one thing we can actually help the tool

412
00:24:54,996 --> 00:24:58,700
providers that are working with us in this project.

413
00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:02,630
And, thanks to being here in AXSChat we can also say we

414
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:05,440
have the possibility to invite one more subcontractor

415
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,980
so if there is a tool provider out there that is used

416
00:25:08,980 --> 00:25:11,670
in the public sector in Europe, then please contact us

417
00:25:11,670 --> 00:25:13,670
because we can still take one more on board and we have

418
00:25:13,670 --> 00:25:18,390
funding for that, end of marketing.

419
00:25:18,390 --> 00:25:21,610
And then in the longer run what, I have promised sort

420
00:25:21,610 --> 00:25:23,940
of to the commission, to do for their money is to

421
00:25:23,940 --> 00:25:27,380
really to disrupt this market so by working with a

422
00:25:27,380 --> 00:25:31,300
leading the market leading tools and making sure that

423
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:35,220
they come up with their best ideas to try them out with

424
00:25:35,220 --> 00:25:38,570
web authors and really make sure that they do meet the

425
00:25:38,570 --> 00:25:42,500
user requirements and that they make a difference, and

426
00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:45,490
then, share this with the world I hope that all the

427
00:25:45,490 --> 00:25:48,380
other tool makers that are not in the project they will

428
00:25:48,380 --> 00:25:51,250
then follow suit because we have the biggest ones and

429
00:25:51,250 --> 00:25:53,750
they will be the front runner so to speak.

430
00:25:53,750 --> 00:25:57,000
So what we want to do in this project is to change the

431
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,480
world, it is just a small principle what I want to do,

432
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,600
but I think we can do it because if we are in agreement

433
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,290
and we do good research and good testing and then we

434
00:26:06,290 --> 00:26:09,050
have the best practices and we have these big players

435
00:26:09,050 --> 00:26:13,290
around us and I mean they show the way, then the rest

436
00:26:13,290 --> 00:26:15,290
of the market will follow. I'm quite sure.

437
00:26:15,423 --> 00:26:22,540
NEIL: So, I think that we, as a large IT company

438
00:26:22,740 --> 00:26:25,870
with my ATOS hat on, are seeing the demand

439
00:26:25,870 --> 00:26:29,720
from public sector. The legislation inform

440
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:35,941
driven demand is now actually a reality.

441
00:26:35,941 --> 00:26:39,381
Let's see how much of it actually gets translated

442
00:26:39,381 --> 00:26:41,841
because it's coming through in all of the R F Ps that

443
00:26:41,841 --> 00:26:46,511
you see that public sector particularly Germany and UK

444
00:26:46,511 --> 00:26:52,231
that I'm particularly keenly aware of.

445
00:26:52,231 --> 00:26:55,711
I think that when you say you're doing research I'm

446
00:26:55,711 --> 00:26:59,991
interested into how you're linking up the research on

447
00:26:59,991 --> 00:27:04,711
the authoring tools to the need for monitoring as well

448
00:27:04,711 --> 00:27:09,556
because I think that the enforcement of the legislation

449
00:27:09,556 --> 00:27:14,301
hinges upon the sampling and monitoring of the websites

450
00:27:14,301 --> 00:27:18,731
and the output so, what's that linkage, or is there yet

451
00:27:18,731 --> 00:27:20,731
to be a link made?

452
00:27:20,731 --> 00:27:22,734
SUSANNA: There is no link between the current

453
00:27:23,051 --> 00:27:26,631
legislation and the tools because the legislation is

454
00:27:26,631 --> 00:27:28,631
not covering the tools.

455
00:27:28,631 --> 00:27:31,854
So, there's no but I mean the funding is there.

456
00:27:31,854 --> 00:27:33,854
But the fund something there because of the legislation

457
00:27:33,854 --> 00:27:36,661
so this is one way of supporting the legislation so

458
00:27:36,661 --> 00:27:40,011
that you know some of the accessibility mistakes are

459
00:27:40,011 --> 00:27:42,011
not going to happen. Because nowadays

460
00:27:42,011 --> 00:27:44,011
you can buy a good tool or bad tool

461
00:27:44,011 --> 00:27:49,139
but it is still the competence of the ICT supplier,

462
00:27:49,139 --> 00:27:52,851
ATOS or the one building the website that's where

463
00:27:52,851 --> 00:27:56,851
everything happens because none of the tools are

464
00:27:56,851 --> 00:27:59,693
accessible you push the button and comes up with

465
00:27:59,693 --> 00:28:01,831
accessible website that is not happening.

466
00:28:01,831 --> 00:28:06,121
So, what we can do is make sure more is accessible by

467
00:28:06,121 --> 00:28:09,941
default so that the authors cannot do as many mistakes

468
00:28:09,941 --> 00:28:13,381
as they do today and thereby, I think we can really

469
00:28:13,381 --> 00:28:16,004
help the implementation of the web accessibility

470
00:28:16,004 --> 00:28:19,291
directive that way. And then the enforcement

471
00:28:19,291 --> 00:28:21,291
comes with monitoring but that's a completely

472
00:28:21,291 --> 00:28:23,291
different question this, project

473
00:28:23,291 --> 00:28:25,291
has nothing do with the monitoring piece.

474
00:28:25,291 --> 00:28:32,411
NEIL: So, I kind of get that.

475
00:28:32,411 --> 00:28:36,571
But I guess the monitoring, if you were able to monitor

476
00:28:36,571 --> 00:28:42,761
site, and you're scanning all the European sites and

477
00:28:42,761 --> 00:28:46,771
able to ascertain which tool was used to create the

478
00:28:46,771 --> 00:28:50,221
site, you might then start also gathering really useful

479
00:28:50,221 --> 00:28:52,981
data about the effectiveness of the work

480
00:28:52,981 --> 00:28:54,981
you've been doing.

481
00:28:54,981 --> 00:28:57,343
SUSANNA: Yes that is true and that's what we did in

482
00:28:57,343 --> 00:28:59,361
the pilot, we looked at which tools are used most in

483
00:28:59,361 --> 00:29:02,751
public sector websites, so the most popular ones, we

484
00:29:02,751 --> 00:29:05,431
have a top 30 list and then we looked at what

485
00:29:05,431 --> 00:29:07,431
can they actually do.

486
00:29:07,431 --> 00:29:10,071
What is their insect by default how much are they

487
00:29:10,071 --> 00:29:13,481
accessible from, even if the supplier

488
00:29:13,481 --> 00:29:15,481
doesn't do anything.

489
00:29:15,481 --> 00:29:17,791
HOWARD: Accessible are they the build in

490
00:29:17,791 --> 00:29:19,981
accessibility part, that was the first part of the

491
00:29:19,981 --> 00:29:22,221
research but now we're trying to change

492
00:29:22,221 --> 00:29:24,221
the way things are.

493
00:29:24,221 --> 00:29:26,981
And it would of course be interesting, if there were

494
00:29:26,981 --> 00:29:30,091
another project, then to make sure we could measure

495
00:29:30,091 --> 00:29:36,201
this, because I, my sort of next step in this would be

496
00:29:36,201 --> 00:29:40,561
for the central procurement, the framework contracts

497
00:29:40,561 --> 00:29:44,951
driven by the governments to say that if you are not,

498
00:29:44,951 --> 00:29:47,811
if you haven't implemented these things, this

499
00:29:47,811 --> 00:29:50,951
accessibility by default features we have promoted,

500
00:29:50,951 --> 00:29:53,901
then you are not allowed to sell to public sector or at

501
00:29:53,901 --> 00:29:56,451
least it should be harder to sell to public sector so

502
00:29:56,451 --> 00:29:59,571
that's the next step in this, I believe.

503
00:29:59,904 --> 00:30:04,071
NEIL: So, Mike, I believe you wanted to

504
00:30:04,071 --> 00:30:06,071
give a shout out.

505
00:30:06,071 --> 00:30:09,778
MIKE: Definitely, there's some interesting CMSs,

506
00:30:10,111 --> 00:30:14,611
that are out there that do, they're being used by the

507
00:30:14,611 --> 00:30:18,471
public sector and Education Sector that I would love to

508
00:30:18,471 --> 00:30:21,105
find people who are engaged on their accessibility

509
00:30:21,105 --> 00:30:24,471
teams. The Jimbo and the Moodle community

510
00:30:24,471 --> 00:30:27,831
are two that I would, I know are doing some

511
00:30:27,831 --> 00:30:30,401
interesting work and it would be great to

512
00:30:30,401 --> 00:30:33,461
have them on board and have their

513
00:30:33,461 --> 00:30:35,901
involvement in one way or the other.

514
00:30:36,234 --> 00:30:38,234
SUSANNA: Agreed.

515
00:30:38,234 --> 00:30:45,010
DEBRA: Mike have you Rathod to the Moodle and those

516
00:30:45,343 --> 00:30:48,113
two communities to see if they want to be part of it,

517
00:30:48,113 --> 00:30:51,123
because it sure seems like any brilliant company would

518
00:30:51,123 --> 00:30:53,123
like to be part of it.

519
00:30:53,249 --> 00:30:56,684
MIKE: I have tried to, and you would think it is

520
00:30:56,891 --> 00:31:01,794
easy to track these people are, but it is not easy to

521
00:31:01,794 --> 00:31:03,794
find them and get a response.

522
00:31:03,794 --> 00:31:05,794
And I'm not sure exactly why.

523
00:31:05,794 --> 00:31:08,539
DEBRA: Yeah maybe we'll tag them and get them

524
00:31:08,634 --> 00:31:12,054
engaged this way, so this is why we're doing it.

525
00:31:12,054 --> 00:31:15,334
So, it's good to know. And you know one

526
00:31:15,334 --> 00:31:17,334
thing, and this is probably a stupid

527
00:31:17,334 --> 00:31:22,354
question but, how do all of these efforts tie into the

528
00:31:22,354 --> 00:31:25,544
"accessible tools" that we see in the market.

529
00:31:25,544 --> 00:31:28,454
I know in the United States we see more and more

530
00:31:28,454 --> 00:31:32,434
overlays come and we're actually having quite a few

531
00:31:32,434 --> 00:31:35,494
failures in the United States with tools.

532
00:31:35,494 --> 00:31:39,764
And I realise this when we say tools that's a big word,

533
00:31:39,764 --> 00:31:44,514
but how does this tie into the supposedly accessibility

534
00:31:44,514 --> 00:31:49,830
tools that are sometimes making things

535
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:51,830
worse not better.

536
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:55,147
SUSANNA: Some of the features that we are going to

537
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,710
prototype, and test has a connection to not these

538
00:31:58,710 --> 00:32:00,710
overlays but to testing.

539
00:32:00,710 --> 00:32:04,240
So, we are I mean, one way of supporting the web

540
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,560
authors is to make sure they can test our accessible

541
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,890
things are while they're editing for example or they

542
00:32:09,890 --> 00:32:13,045
can test the accessibility of a PD F document before it

543
00:32:13,045 --> 00:32:16,050
is uploaded and so on, so some of the features we will

544
00:32:16,050 --> 00:32:19,940
try out this Autumn and it has to do with testing and

545
00:32:19,940 --> 00:32:23,290
then of course we will not invent a new testing tool,

546
00:32:23,290 --> 00:32:27,060
we will use one of the ones, open source one on the

547
00:32:27,060 --> 00:32:31,520
market to see how the concept works, if you build it

548
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,850
into the authoring tool so.

549
00:32:33,850 --> 00:32:42,561
In that way, it does connect in a good way.

550
00:32:42,561 --> 00:32:47,341
And also, another thing I would maybe like to add is

551
00:32:47,341 --> 00:32:51,781
that there will be or there is another call for

552
00:32:51,781 --> 00:32:55,411
European research with a deadline next week which has

553
00:32:55,411 --> 00:33:00,803
to do with content creation so the back office of the

554
00:33:00,803 --> 00:33:05,781
or back end for the authoring tool, so what we are

555
00:33:05,781 --> 00:33:09,292
focusing on is the output of the authoring tool becomes

556
00:33:09,292 --> 00:33:12,671
accessible but there's of course another perspective on

557
00:33:12,671 --> 00:33:15,731
this, this is the accessibility for the web authors

558
00:33:15,731 --> 00:33:20,731
that they are also should have the possibility to use

559
00:33:20,731 --> 00:33:23,511
the tools with or without disability.

560
00:33:23,511 --> 00:33:26,611
So, there's another step or another perspective that

561
00:33:26,611 --> 00:33:29,501
will be funded research on soon.

562
00:33:29,834 --> 00:33:35,460
DEBRA: So, I'm curious, how can corporations get

563
00:33:35,460 --> 00:33:39,540
involved? Because I hear so many complaints

564
00:33:39,540 --> 00:33:41,600
in the United States from multinational

565
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,780
corporations that are trying to do

566
00:33:43,780 --> 00:33:48,300
what the accessibility field tells them to do but they

567
00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:51,440
are just so confused and they don't believe that the

568
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,340
accessibility industry and community understands

569
00:33:54,340 --> 00:33:56,340
what their real needs are.

570
00:33:56,340 --> 00:33:59,890
I know that Neil is going to have to jump to go to

571
00:33:59,890 --> 00:34:03,362
another meeting, sorry to lose Neil, but just wanted

572
00:34:03,362 --> 00:34:06,450
to, when our friend Neil bounces away, we

573
00:34:06,450 --> 00:34:08,450
want to make sure you knew that.

574
00:34:08,450 --> 00:34:11,885
But I was curious, once again, maybe it is because it

575
00:34:11,885 --> 00:34:15,590
is my client base, but it seems the corporations should

576
00:34:15,590 --> 00:34:17,710
really be stepping up and supporting with a you're

577
00:34:17,710 --> 00:34:20,310
trying do. And I think thanks goodness Europe

578
00:34:20,310 --> 00:34:23,305
is doing this, but I know, the States and

579
00:34:23,305 --> 00:34:25,305
other countries, we're all going

580
00:34:25,305 --> 00:34:28,610
to benefit from this work, so, are you, it seems like

581
00:34:28,610 --> 00:34:30,620
there are opportunities for others to step up and

582
00:34:30,620 --> 00:34:32,620
really support what you're doing too.

583
00:34:32,620 --> 00:34:36,196
SUSANNA: Yes we are open to corporations and

584
00:34:36,472 --> 00:34:40,632
organisations from other parts of the world as lone ago

585
00:34:40,632 --> 00:34:43,682
they are not receiving the EU funding it is fine for

586
00:34:43,682 --> 00:34:47,732
us, they can be observers or be in the project but just

587
00:34:47,732 --> 00:34:51,232
can't receive the funding because that is for European

588
00:34:51,232 --> 00:34:54,012
countries only but otherwise we're happy to have them

589
00:34:54,012 --> 00:34:56,012
on board, they're welcome.

590
00:34:56,012 --> 00:34:59,849
ANTONIO: Can I presume that you are really

591
00:35:00,182 --> 00:35:02,852
interested in creating a community around what you are

592
00:35:02,852 --> 00:35:04,852
trying to develop here?

593
00:35:04,852 --> 00:35:08,067
SUSANNA: Yes definitely I mean the whole point with

594
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,650
this project is sharing knowledge, taking the best

595
00:35:11,650 --> 00:35:14,760
ideas, testing them, making sure that we have some kind

596
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,850
of de facto standard or best practices and make sure

597
00:35:17,850 --> 00:35:22,340
that that reaches a big part of the market as possible

598
00:35:22,340 --> 00:35:26,340
so that all offering tools hopefully will use these

599
00:35:26,340 --> 00:35:31,210
features and then step wise it will become less

600
00:35:31,210 --> 00:35:33,360
necessary for the web authors to be accessibility

601
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,110
experts, it should be easy for them to publish in an

602
00:35:36,110 --> 00:35:40,190
accessible way without having to go through a lot of

603
00:35:40,190 --> 00:35:45,081
training. So definitely reach out is extremely

604
00:35:45,081 --> 00:35:48,131
important in all European funded projects

605
00:35:48,131 --> 00:35:51,691
but this is really the target group audience

606
00:35:51,691 --> 00:35:54,081
within the industry, so we really want

607
00:35:54,081 --> 00:35:56,088
to build some kind of community around this,

608
00:35:56,088 --> 00:35:58,088
absolutely yes.

609
00:35:58,088 --> 00:36:00,200
DEBRA: That sounds so fascinating.

610
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,554
SUSANNA: And we're planning to present on some

611
00:36:04,248 --> 00:36:09,428
specific events, I mean if, will they be online or face

612
00:36:09,428 --> 00:36:11,848
to face I don't know but we're trying to make sure that

613
00:36:11,848 --> 00:36:15,018
we will reach the audience where they are instead of,

614
00:36:15,018 --> 00:36:17,828
we can invite them for webinars but it is better we go

615
00:36:17,828 --> 00:36:22,398
where they are and present this so we try to reach as

616
00:36:22,398 --> 00:36:24,398
much of the market as possible.

617
00:36:24,398 --> 00:36:27,566
DEBRA: Do you have a website or something that

618
00:36:27,899 --> 00:36:29,899
people can track to find out more

619
00:36:29,899 --> 00:36:31,899
about this information?

620
00:36:31,899 --> 00:36:37,785
SUSANNA: Yes there, is a project website,

621
00:36:37,785 --> 00:36:42,666
accessibilitycluster.com I think, dot something.

622
00:36:42,666 --> 00:36:45,450
I should remember this. Yeah dotcom.

623
00:36:45,784 --> 00:36:58,684
DEBRA: I like Neil's picture that he left up.

624
00:36:59,017 --> 00:37:05,311
MIKE: we4authors are the hashtag that people are

625
00:37:05,311 --> 00:37:09,897
using so if there's questions on what you're doing,

626
00:37:09,897 --> 00:37:13,328
look for the we four authors #is a definitely a good

627
00:37:13,328 --> 00:37:15,328
way to contact people.

628
00:37:15,328 --> 00:37:22,471
DEBRA: Neil we can hear you too.

629
00:37:22,804 --> 00:37:30,846
So, Mike, I'm sorry when you say, will you

630
00:37:30,846 --> 00:37:33,610
say it again and say if it is for or number four.

631
00:37:33,874 --> 00:37:35,874
MIKE: Number four.

632
00:37:35,874 --> 00:37:44,228
DEBRA: So what is the hashtag we4authors I think it

633
00:37:44,561 --> 00:37:47,831
is very interesting and there's a lot that we, I this I

634
00:37:47,831 --> 00:37:52,211
we need this pause I know that I listen to corporations

635
00:37:52,211 --> 00:37:55,021
complain about it because of course in the United

636
00:37:55,021 --> 00:37:58,011
States, you don't get this right you get sued and get

637
00:37:58,011 --> 00:38:00,691
sued not once. I heard of companies being

638
00:38:00,691 --> 00:38:06,511
sued four, five, six times and so it's caused a

639
00:38:06,511 --> 00:38:09,281
rift between the community and the

640
00:38:09,281 --> 00:38:11,571
corporations trying to actually do this.

641
00:38:11,571 --> 00:38:15,181
So, I think we need to come up with better solutions

642
00:38:15,181 --> 00:38:18,081
and I know Mike you and I talked about this many times

643
00:38:18,081 --> 00:38:21,281
but it's got to be more at solving the problem at the

644
00:38:21,281 --> 00:38:24,191
authoring tool level so that people can actually be

645
00:38:24,191 --> 00:38:26,841
successful, instead of as soon as you finish with them

646
00:38:26,841 --> 00:38:29,451
and you step out they kick themselves out of compliance

647
00:38:29,451 --> 00:38:31,451
in about two minutes.

648
00:38:32,792 --> 00:38:35,812
So, you know, before we close, and thank our sponsors

649
00:38:36,732 --> 00:38:40,552
and supporters, maybe we could do a little round robin

650
00:38:40,552 --> 00:38:44,232
and give you all some final words so, Timo, why don't

651
00:38:44,232 --> 00:38:48,102
we start with you and do it backwards, you Mike and

652
00:38:48,102 --> 00:38:51,282
Susanna and then we can thank our supporters.

653
00:38:51,615 --> 00:38:57,050
TIMO: Thanks for having me for the first time and I

654
00:38:57,050 --> 00:39:00,850
really enjoy talking about this topic and exchanging

655
00:39:00,850 --> 00:39:05,740
ideas and everything because that's a core of what I

656
00:39:05,740 --> 00:39:08,290
love and what I like. And what Mike said

657
00:39:08,290 --> 00:39:11,750
before about the authoring tools,

658
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:15,425
community when I go to meetings and for instance a

659
00:39:15,425 --> 00:39:19,490
JavaScript meeting and present something it is often

660
00:39:19,490 --> 00:39:24,280
that it is hard to explain to people what we do,

661
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,760
building authoring tools because maybe they're building

662
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,110
web apps or something and I found out that when I talk

663
00:39:31,110 --> 00:39:33,853
to people like Mike or others in the we4authors

664
00:39:33,853 --> 00:39:38,370
Cluster, that we have far more in common, even though

665
00:39:38,370 --> 00:39:42,220
we're using different programme languages, but we all

666
00:39:42,220 --> 00:39:45,670
have the same problems and we try to solve them in

667
00:39:45,670 --> 00:39:48,940
different ways and we run into walls and learn lessons

668
00:39:48,940 --> 00:39:51,930
and it is super interesting to exchange ideas right

669
00:39:51,930 --> 00:39:57,506
across borders of programming communities if you will.

670
00:39:57,506 --> 00:40:00,650
Yeah, I really enjoy it. Thanks for having me today.

671
00:40:00,983 --> 00:40:04,262
DEBRA: We got to have you again, we were impressed

672
00:40:04,262 --> 00:40:09,210
MIKE: So, I would say that the one of the things

673
00:40:09,210 --> 00:40:12,558
that we can really do is to make progress on low

674
00:40:12,558 --> 00:40:16,070
hanging fruit. We haven't been able to do

675
00:40:16,070 --> 00:40:19,690
as much to fix the simple accessibility issues

676
00:40:19,690 --> 00:40:21,770
and I think folks on the offering

677
00:40:21,770 --> 00:40:25,650
tools and interface and basic templates, and providing

678
00:40:25,650 --> 00:40:29,880
some good solid examples for people to work from, not

679
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,180
things that you'd have to, learn about and then apply

680
00:40:33,180 --> 00:40:36,610
but just fixing it at the source, finding those

681
00:40:36,610 --> 00:40:40,644
programmes that have a solid reputation around

682
00:40:40,644 --> 00:40:43,920
accessibility and are already working for us, because,

683
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,620
we don't need to have millions of web developers

684
00:40:46,620 --> 00:40:48,620
reinventing the wheel and looking up accessibility

685
00:40:48,620 --> 00:40:51,550
issues, we need to be able to trust that the libraries

686
00:40:51,550 --> 00:40:54,043
that everyone is using have some good accessibility

687
00:40:54,043 --> 00:40:57,810
default built into that. For that, we need to

688
00:40:57,810 --> 00:41:00,460
actually start funding that, so

689
00:41:00,460 --> 00:41:04,160
corporations can pony up money and resources to go off

690
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,000
in to invest in the tools that they're using to make

691
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,300
sure those tools are as good as possible, and if that's

692
00:41:12,300 --> 00:41:16,720
a matter of challenging your vendors in having

693
00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:20,150
contracts or whether it is investing in their own

694
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:22,820
technical supporters in investing in the open source

695
00:41:22,820 --> 00:41:26,580
tools they use it doesn't matter but they need to see

696
00:41:26,580 --> 00:41:29,740
the value of investing upstream in those libraries and

697
00:41:29,740 --> 00:41:33,550
ensuring those problems are fixed so there can be real

698
00:41:33,550 --> 00:41:37,720
collaboration between everyone who is using these

699
00:41:37,720 --> 00:41:39,720
common set of tools.

700
00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:44,047
SUSANNA: I want to add a authoring tools and

701
00:41:44,381 --> 00:41:47,609
providers and developers have a key to accessibility,

702
00:41:47,609 --> 00:41:50,171
it is extremely important I think this industry is

703
00:41:50,171 --> 00:41:52,596
sometimes forgotten because everyone is focusing on us,

704
00:41:52,596 --> 00:41:55,041
the accessibility experts but we can't fix this on our

705
00:41:55,041 --> 00:41:57,631
own, we need you to help us so that's why we're

706
00:41:57,631 --> 00:42:01,011
reaching out to all the authoring providers to join us

707
00:42:01,011 --> 00:42:03,671
in this effort and I personally really like the

708
00:42:03,671 --> 00:42:07,291
collaborative effort here, we have licensed commercial

709
00:42:07,291 --> 00:42:10,121
products and open source, and we have people from many

710
00:42:10,121 --> 00:42:12,121
different parts of the world and they have different

711
00:42:12,121 --> 00:42:14,191
views and perspectives and work together.

712
00:42:14,191 --> 00:42:16,541
I think the collaborative effort is really what is

713
00:42:16,621 --> 00:42:20,291
making these projects so important and also fun because

714
00:42:20,291 --> 00:42:23,661
I mean we all learn from each other and ultimately when

715
00:42:23,661 --> 00:42:27,341
we share this knowledge that that is when we go forward

716
00:42:27,341 --> 00:42:29,341
in accessibility and inclusion.

717
00:42:29,341 --> 00:42:34,408
DEBRA: I agree, and I keep using the #we're stronger

718
00:42:34,741 --> 00:42:38,291
together it is very approximate in the United States

719
00:42:38,291 --> 00:42:41,021
where we're worried about being under one flag.

720
00:42:41,021 --> 00:42:43,991
But we got to solve this together, and we got to solve

721
00:42:43,991 --> 00:42:47,121
this together and support the leaders that are trying

722
00:42:47,121 --> 00:42:49,921
to solve it and obviously you three are leading that

723
00:42:49,921 --> 00:42:51,921
charge and we have to support it.

724
00:42:51,921 --> 00:42:54,841
So, we're appreciate what you are doing and stand by

725
00:42:54,841 --> 00:42:57,821
you so, thank you all for your work.

726
00:42:57,821 --> 00:43:00,001
Thank you all for being on the show and we also want to

727
00:43:00,001 --> 00:43:02,071
thank our supporters because we couldn't do this

728
00:43:02,071 --> 00:43:04,941
without you, we've been doing this for five years, it

729
00:43:04,941 --> 00:43:09,301
is almost, we're at five and a half years now, so,

730
00:43:09,301 --> 00:43:12,881
still not running out Topics, there's a lot of work to

731
00:43:12,881 --> 00:43:17,701
do, as Susanna said earlier to, I think chai the world.

732
00:43:17,701 --> 00:43:21,601
I want to thank Barclays Access, Microlink, and

733
00:43:21,601 --> 00:43:24,591
MyClearText for always supporting us and making sure

734
00:43:24,591 --> 00:43:29,171
that we're fully accessible and we're staying online.

735
00:43:29,171 --> 00:43:32,901
And really growing this community, thank you so much,

736
00:43:32,901 --> 00:43:35,941
and thank you to everyone else for joining us today.

737
00:43:35,941 --> 00:43:39,395
Bye everyone. Bye bye thank you.