Rediscovering Disability in Ancient Rome: The Cambridge School Classics Project

When was the last time your history book mentioned Julius Caesar's seizures or Hannibal's missing eye? The erasure of disability from our historical narratives isn't accidental—it reveals our modern discomfort with integrating disability into stories of power and achievement.

Caroline Bristow, Director of the Cambridge School Classics Project, takes us on a fascinating journey through ancient Rome's complex relationship with disability. From gravestone inscriptions that proudly declare "Meropnus, aulis player with dwarfism" to special legal accommodations for disabled military veterans, we discover that ancient attitudes weren't as simplistic as we've been led to believe.

The conversation explores how the Cambridge Latin Course—used by 93% of UK schools teaching Latin and countless institutions worldwide—is being thoughtfully revised to include accurate representations of disability throughout history. This isn't about tokenistic inclusion, but about acknowledging the full spectrum of human experience that has always existed.

Particularly compelling is the discussion of classical art and monuments, where contrary to popular belief, diverse body types including elderly people, those with surgical scars, and various physical differences were indeed represented—though often filtered out by later scholars to support their idealized vision of classical perfection.

Whether you're interested in classical history, inclusive education, or the way our modern biases shape our understanding of the past, this conversation offers illuminating insights into how we can build a more accurate and representative historical narrative. Subscribe to hear more episodes that challenge our assumptions and expand our understanding of the human experience throughout history.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Cambridge School Classics
• 9:38 Revising Latin Courses for Inclusivity
• 13:57 Teaching Languages Through Storytelling
• 19:29 Researching Disability in Ancient Rome
• 26:37 Military Veterans and Disability
• 32:44 Disability Representation in Classical Art

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hello and welcome to Access Chat. I'm delighted that we're joined today by Caroline Bristow, who is the Director of the Cambridge School Classics Project. I met Caroline at the Business Disability Forum event celebrating the Disability Smart Awards, where Caroline and her project was one of the winners, but we got into conversations about the work that she was doing and then actually disability representation in history, which is a topic that got me excited as my background being in history a long, long time ago. That's almost ancient history now but I was super interested by the topic and couldn't wait to get Caroline on to talk about the work she's doing through the school classics project, but also a little bit more about the sort of understanding of what went on in ancient history and the representation of disability. So, caroline, great to have you with us. Can you tell us a little bit about your role, please? Thank you, so CSCP, which is a lot less of a mouthful than Cambridge School Classics Project.

Speaker 2: 1:06

So, caroline, great to have you with us. Can you tell us a little bit about your role, please? Thank you. So CSCP, which is a lot less of a mouthful than Cambridge School Classics Project. So CSCP has been around for years. Next year is our birthday.

Speaker 2: 1:25

So it was set up by the grant from the Department of Education in the 60s to essentially try and promote the teaching of Latin and the ancient world in schools in the UK. I don't think anybody expected it to last as long as it did. I'm pretty sure the original team were not expecting it to be going 60 years later. So CSDP is best known for the Cambridge Latin course. Some research that I did in 2017 suggested that I think something like 93% of schools in the UK who did Latin at some point used the CLC, so it's fairly strong.

Speaker 2: 2:04

I've had complete strangers at weddings come running up to me shouting kykele assessed in horto, which is incredibly strange. Um, but that's kind of. So that's what we're best known for. My job outside of that has, um, a research element to it. You know, I basically get paid to sit and think about classics education and that can be actually producing stuff using classrooms, training teachers, advocacy and policy work. I'm incredibly lucky. Basically, I get to very much control the direction I take the project that's under my care, um. So yeah, I have a very varied role. I don't really have a typical day, which is quite nice.

Speaker 1: 2:56

That sounds great, but you particularly won this award for the work that you did on inclusion in the teaching material, so maybe you could explain a little bit about what you, what you did there.

Speaker 2: 3:02

So the CLC Cambridge Latin course has been around for a long time, um, and the last revision of it for the uk market, well, uk international, uh, basically, there's two editions uh, one of them, deborah, you'll be pleased to hear, is just for north america. The north americans have their own version, um, it's got far fewer views in it, um, and the other edition is used the rest of world, the rest of world edition um hadn't been revised for 25 years and the north american edition had been revised in 2015, but reasonably lightly in some places. Um, one of the things that really hadn't been touched was, uh, disability inclusion. Um, that wasn't one of the priorities that was done in in that revision.

Speaker 2: 3:49

So one of as an education specialist, my big focus as a professional is on inclusion, um, and intersectional especially inclusion. So essentially, I wanted to make sure that this new edition was inclusive and accessible all the way through the process. So I made a commitment to things like the consultants we were using. So we obviously use academic consultants to check material etc. So I made a commitment to using a range of consultants from different sort of marginalised or less prominent groups and then, of course, in the content itself, a commitment to making sure that we were representing different groups of society in more, in better ways, and that's a really rubbish way of putting it, but there's a difference between inclusion and good inclusion, as I'm sure you're very aware, um.

Speaker 2: 4:47

So you know, I it's it was actually trying to think about how we were doing it, um, and I was very grateful I've got a wonderful team who I work with who have got very similar kind of, obviously, drives and ethos. So, yeah, we basically took it apart at the seams and then tried to look at how we could improve things. Nothing's ever perfect, so you can't create I always say it's towards a more inclusive book rather than creating an inclusive one. You can't create something that's inclusive for everyone. That's impossible. You can just move things forwards each time.

Speaker 3: 5:28

Caroline, welcome to the show. Do you mind explaining it a little bit more to me? Because I understand you know the Cambridge School of Classics project, but do you mind just explaining it to me a little bit more, because I, because I I'm thinking something that it's probably not correct. Are we talking one book Are we talking about because I know you said before we went on air there's a huge US market too. So do you mind just wrapping your hand a little bit better around it for me? I apologize.

Speaker 2: 6:01

I'm obviously very used to speaking in a context where I don't necessarily have to actually remember that not everyone knows what the book looks like. So it's a Latin course, it's a beginner's Latin course and it's what we would call a reading course. So back in the 1960s, when they first developed it, it was really unusual in its pedagogical approach, and in the 60s, it was built deliberately to be an accessible learning tool. That was the point of it, and that was the 60s. So it made some decisions which then got undone because they were crazy, because they were crazy, um, but um, though and the people who made them won't mind me saying that, because I think they would agree uh, they did things like strip away, uh, grammatical terminology in the hope that that would stop being a barrier to learning for children, because otherwise you're learning. If you think about, when you're learning language, um, rather than learning the target language, you're learning language to talk about the target language, and actually that's a barrier, because, if you think about it, and so it tried stripping away all of that language about language, um, but actually all that does is almost store up other problems, because if you had an ecosystem in which everyone's doing that, you'd be fine, but otherwise you just kind of create learners who have, who are lacking a piece of knowledge that allows them to unlock other things. So that got undone.

Speaker 2: 7:32

But reading courses essentially you focus on the ability to read. Latin is what it sounds like. Um, they've been shown to be a very so basically what I don't know. If you guys did languages at school, it is highly likely that when you were taught languages at school, depending on your ages, but it's very likely that you did an awful lot of drill and kill. So can you remember learning verb tables a lot? Yep, ok, so this actually tells me a lot about generations as well. So, deborah's eyes, um, so, so, so.

Speaker 1: 8:12

So yeah, I was. I was that target audience of the people that made those mad decisions, because I learned no grammar at all yep, there we go.

Speaker 2: 8:21

So it's really interesting for me because I can literally be like, oh, I know roughly when everyone was at school, from depending on the context, but yeah, so that is the traditional way of learning language, traditionally when we were learning second languages. Uh, you know, my mother says that she can remember my grandfather was in the raf. She can remember walking around air bases declining french verbs, conjugating french verbs sorry, you declined nouns, but conjugating verbs and that is what you did. We now know that that works for a really small percentage of learners, really small, um, uh, myself include. It does not work for me. I always thought I was really bad at languages. So the clc was built on a completely different system and so basically, it's built on an idea of you read the language and you use inductive logic to work out how it's working, and then you allow the child or student, any age, to create a mental model of how the language is working, rather than trying to force a model onto them. It's a very, very gist way of doing it. In order to do that, you have to have stories, because children like stories and, well, everyone likes stories. So this is a four. Book is a four uh, it was five. In the international market it's going to drop down to four in this edition.

Speaker 2: 9:44

Four book series and there is an overarching plot. So, uh, the plot. There is a story that starts in book one and finishes in book four, and that plot is fictional. It's fictionalized but it's deeply rooted in reality, in historical research. I will never say reality, because we're always constructing history. You can't really say that it's reality. Our rule is things have to be plausible, if not necessarily likely. So, for example, book one is set in Pompeii and the volcano does indeed go off in the final chapter and there are some survivals which are deeply unlikely. Given the fact that these people, according to the stories, were in Pompeii at a particular point in the eruption. The chances of them making it out were very, very small. But yeah, so that storyline is what we're talking about basically so yes beginners latin course reading.

Speaker 2: 10:50

Reading focused, very much focused on accessibility to all learners and its backbone is this narrative that in the first century, a thing caroline, as an american, something that I think that we have failed at in our country.

Speaker 3: 11:05

I know we haven't failed at very much, but one thing that we have shut up, neil, one thing that we have failed at is we're not teaching, we have not been deliberate about teaching languages like other countries, and I think it's really hurt our country doing that, and I think it's really hurt our country doing that. And one thing that I think is fascinating about what you were talking about you know how they took some stuff out to make it more accessible, but it actually probably made it less accessible, for, by the way that we learn languages and so I'm I'm really intrigued by that part of it, because you were talking just a little bit before we went on air about the amount of people that have used these courses, um, and I was just wondering you mentioned it a little bit here too, and then I'll be quiet and let neil and antonio come in but would you talk just a bit again about how many people have used these?

Speaker 2: 12:22

you know, as I say in the uk um in 2017, it was about 93 of schools who did some latin and that's not the majority of schools, you know.

Speaker 2: 12:36

Please, uh, anyone around the world watching this, please do not think that all schools in the uk are teaching latin. That would be lovely. Um, they're not. Um, so in the US it's very. So.

Speaker 2: 12:47

The US is a really interesting space to work in from an educational perspective because I spent a lot of time over there, because you're so decentralized. So in the UK we can kind of track how much Latin there is because we have national exams, and so I often refer to Key Stage, stage three. So that would be your kind of late middle school, early high school, so, um, kids between sort of 11 and 14. Um, I often talk about key stage three being like dark matter, classics. It's a bit like in physics, right, we know dark matter is there because we can see the effects. We know Key Stage 3 classics is there because we've got Key Stage 4 or TCSE or kids who are between 15, 15, 16. We know they exist, which means they must exist further down the school, but we can't track it because there's no national data. We just have to kind of work out local networks etc.

Speaker 2: 13:47

The US is very similar. You guys are so decentralized that even tracking things like your AP Latin or the National Latin exam. A lot of programs won't be aiming towards those and so we don't. Actually, we can't really track very easily how many learners there are. You've got organizations like the American Classical League, acl, who will have a good handle because they that is their remit, um and things like that, and the um individual regions. So you've got the classical association of new england or cane. You've got the classical association of the midwest and I want to say south. I'm so sorry, guys, if I've just named you wrong um. I just know it's like cancer because I know I can. I know what the acronym is and I can't remember what it stands for, but then you've got these regional networks, but yeah so these are really there's.

Speaker 2: 14:37

There's latin in the us is a bit like latin in the uk. In the, there is a small but very strong community. Um, because the us is so big, that percent, like that small percentage of schools, of course means there's more people. Um, it's a very, very um vibrant community and there's a lot of pedagogical difference in the US, something the UK is not quite the same. There's an awful lot of pedagogical um kind of variety in the US. Um, there's a real move towards the uh accessibility and inclusivity. Um, certainly, uh sort of 2020 through now has been a real push in some areas, um, less so for others. Um, you get a huge melting pot of it really, um, but most states I'd say like, basically anywhere that you have like latin is reasonably strong.

Speaker 2: 15:31

The CLC is a well-known book and a lot of people will be using it. We sell enough units in the US to fund my team and we do not have that generous a publishing deal, because that's not how publishing works. So it's really generous. I'm very grateful for it, but you know it's not, it's not a case of like, you know we're being overpaid for it. So, yeah, it's a pretty big kind of market. There's a lot. There's thousands, hundreds of thousand people around the world who will use it. We have people. My favorite one is I received a video from Sierra Leone of some children in the school of Sierra Leone using the book, so it popped up all over the place.

Speaker 3: 16:18

That's got to be very gratifying. So thank you for making it more inclusive. Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1: 16:27

So I'm not sure. I think Antonio has a question.

Speaker 4: 16:35

So, in terms of research, how do you find ways in order to identify people with disabilities within the context of history and bring them forward in order to be part of the history itself?

Speaker 2: 16:52

yeah, so it's. So one of the really key things is and this is I'm massively kind of um going on other people in a way, because, um, I think some of the who I think articulates this very well as a scholar called alexandra morris, um, she, I heard her speak and she put this really bluntly where she was. Like one of the biggest problems is when we think of and this is true in the modern world as well when we think of people with disabilities as that monolithic group, because that that group doesn't really exist. You know, um, I have a hearing impairment that gives me a totally different life experience to somebody with a sight impairment. Um, and yet we would both fall under this of person with impairment. You know, and that's the same in the ancient world, um, and we can also, you see a lot of very sweeping generalizations.

Speaker 2: 17:47

So the romans were awful in a lot of ways, like, I am quite comfortable with that statement. Um, we, none of well, I often say to teachers if you're you are not teaching your children to be romans, and if you are teaching your children to be romans, please stop teaching your children to be romans. That is not going to improve anything. But, um, they had. We know that there is. There was a societal um prejudice, I suppose, or bias at some level, towards bodies which were not impaired, like that makes sense like.

Speaker 2: 18:23

We know that there were certain rituals people couldn't do if they had impairments or things like that, but we have to be really, really careful not to say everyone in roman society was really prejudiced against people with impairments, disabilities, because that's ridiculous. You didn't check, you know, and that's where we have to guard and suppose that can be really difficult and I actually directly answering your question that is something that can make finding those individuals very difficult, because when you've got as a historian, you are often working with a presentation of somebody or what has been recorded. That will often be recorded with a purpose, or it can be very difficult to unpick what is actually going on. My favourite example, though, is in our third book, there is an Aulis player. An Aulis is like someone joined two recorders together. I'm sure that historians of music are now screaming because they're just like no, it's nothing like that.

Speaker 1: 19:31

Did you think of Pan? Yes, pan is playing an aulus.

Speaker 2: 19:36

Two parts. They often accompanied an awful lot of theatre shows, pantomime, dances etc. And there is a second century AD again I get him wrong. He's called Meropnus and we have a gravestone of him. And the gravestone of Meropnus is basically it says on it to the gods, below to Meropnus Aulis', player with dwarfism, and it's basically a really interesting source to use because it's a self-presentation. Obviously he didn't carve it himself. Well, he might have carved it himself, I suppose, if he knew he was about to die.

Speaker 2: 20:32

But we can assume that the person who is being buried didn't actually write the epitaph generally. But Things like that do give us a sense of self preservation, of self presentation, because you're not going to set up a gravestone for somebody saying something that they wouldn't have liked or wouldn't have resonated. That would be a really specific form of insult that most people don't use. So what we can tell there's actually a picture of Meropnus on his gravestone as well. It's a really interesting source. And what we can tell from the fact that he is too moropness, owless, player with dwarfism. His musical skill and his dwarfism are taking equal billing there, so they are equally weighted in parts of his personality or parts of his self-identity. His personality or parts of his self-identity. Um, so, marotness, that gravestone was actually the basis for um, one of the characters of our later books, um, who actually is the aulus player who accompanies um, a pantomime artist who has an affair with the empress's wife that ends very badly for him. Um, and the reason I find him very interesting as a character as well is he enables he's a really interesting one because it's really. It's such an interesting sphere when you start looking at people who the traditional narrative is.

Speaker 2: 22:04

This is somebody who is being marginalized or is being exploited, and that is completely true. It's quite simple, that was happening. But there's been more modern work done, often by historians on so, who mainly focus on the Victorian kind of I mean, I don't, you know, the Victorian shows just literally had people with different bodies on display and there's been lots of historical work done on this. And that attitude which actually feeds very well is this idea of we can't always tell how the individual felt about it. We might feel very uncomfortable with it and actually we might be rightly feeling really uncomfortable with it, but it's completely possible that someone like Marotnus was leaning into the expectations of his audience, you know, aimed to his dwarfism, and he may have found that incredibly annoying. You know he may have. He may have wanted to be just the owless player, not the owless player with dwarfism, but equally he may have found it funny. He may have found it liberating, he may have found it a way of making use of his body in a way that was empowering. We can't know.

Speaker 4: 23:25

And so we have to be really, really careful about projecting that sense of helplessness but we also know that the roman society was also a society at war and permanent states of war and with war it comes. People would suffer in the army. When they return back to their families, they cannot accomplish what the family expect that person to do, because that person might have not be able to fit to work or have a disability. So it's interesting to see how asian societies will see that person in their own social context.

Speaker 2: 24:00

Yeah, it's so. Military disability is really interesting. So we can. If you look at some of the jurists, people who are writing about the Roman legal system in sort of the first and second centuries AD, we can see that there are certain laws where having served in the military is a, not an out. That's not quite the right word, but we can see that if your impairment or disability is as the result of your service, that that's taken into account. I really wish I could remember a specific circumstance, but yeah, we see that a couple of times.

Speaker 2: 24:43

Ideas of you cannot do this thing if you have a disability, unless your disability was gained through service. There's also a really interesting idea that I came across. So Romans were very organised, very organised One thing they come up with I've taken away from them and so when they founded towns and cities, they often would found they had very specific characteristics and they were founded along particular charters. Sometimes they grew up organically, but that was a specific kind of town or city and they had these things called coloniae. Coloniae were specifically founded for veterans, and so when your soldiers reached the end of their contracts, they were often they might be offered land in a.

Speaker 2: 25:31

Yeah, um, and a really interesting idea I found when I was writing this the chapters in book three which are very much based in sort of a military encampment is something that I thought was quite plausible really, which is the idea of yes, the assumption has always been that these towns were built up because these people had been in the army for 25 years and 35 years and they wanted to keep that discipline. They were used to that way of life and being surrounded by people who had seen the same things as them was really beneficial. But actually is there also an argument for if you're surrounded by people who might have the same injuries and who might have similar difficulties or her making the same adaptations? So it's not just about trying to perpetuate that military way of life, but maybe there is something going on there with people wanting to settle around, people who understand, you know that very specific lived experience.

Speaker 2: 26:35

Yeah, the militaries are really interesting, and what I found really interesting rewriting the books is there's lots and lots and lots of um, military, um, the uh. There's lots of pictures of soldiers, none of whom have any wounds. That was something we really noticed is, when they the previous illustrators had drawn them, we put the injuries in. They just didn't have any injuries, and it's just that really interesting kind of like erasure.

Speaker 1: 27:10

Yeah, I mean that still goes on today, Otherwise you wouldn't be able to recruit. But yes, I think that you know and so maybe that's because the previous illustrators were conditioned, because all that we see are pictures of non-disabled military. We don't show the after photos of people that have gone through military campaigns. I could talk about this topic for a lot longer than we have time left, for I guess we've covered the Romans to a certain extent. We've talked about the military side of things, Do you think that? And we talked about the importance of the representation in sort of memorials and so on, and I watched a great Mary Beard series on looking at all of the sort of memorials of ancient Rome and how that really gave a much better picture of society than a lot of the literature. Are there other elements of sort of historical documents or sort of things that maybe buildings and sort of monuments?

Speaker 1: 28:27

that you see that also influence the representation in your books.

Speaker 3: 28:32

Yeah, caroline, can I also come in because I want to while you answer that question, because I want to while you answer that question. One thing that I thought was very interesting is the cultures that they say that they really elevated people with disabilities or even, in some cases, worshipped people with disabilities. Periodically I hear things like this and I actually asked ChatGBT it and ChatGBT said well, said well, yes, that it did happen, and it actually named a few cultures of the indigenous and the first nations culture in the north america, um ancient greece, in specific cases, hinduism in ancient india, um ancient china and the daoist thought, and the middle eastern and the sufi traditions oh, I'm sorry, also African traditions. So, and gave me some really, really good data about that. But as you're answering meals, I was wondering if you, because I know we are pretty much out of time, but I love this conversation. I was just wondering if you would, if you wanted to also explore that. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 29:39

So you can edit me down if needs be. So I'm going to try, I'm going to try and, like, I'm going to try and hit all of them. So, okay, so, starting from what you were saying, so with the monumentalization et cetera, so it was really interesting work done by, uh, professor carrie vout at cambridge I saw elected by her and something I thought was really, really fantastic about what she talks about.

Speaker 2: 30:08

She talks more about, um, sculpture, but we have a tradition of body beautiful that comes from neoclassicism, that comes from the fact that we have this idea of the classical sculptures being these please forgive forgive the massive this a lot rounder, lots of things, the perfect bodies and the kind of that sculptural tradition. And Carrie would argue, and Arkin's very well, but this is actually sort of a selection that has been developed in a more modern kind of context. And actually, if you look at an awful lot of the sculpture we have from the ancient world, we do have different bodies. We have the elderly, we have one of my favorites. There's an old lady who's got no teeth and she's fabulous. Um, yeah, we can see different bodies in the sculpture and so, as with so often in classics, including the name classics has been used so much to kind of perpetuate particular hegemonies that actually it tends to be very selective. So we do have evidence of sculptures of people with completely different bodies.

Speaker 2: 31:16

One of the ones in the books is not a sculpture, it's a painting. One of the ones in the book is not a sculpture, it's a painting. It's what's called a Fiam mummy portrait. Region of Fiam in Egypt, greco-roman portrait shoved on mummies, what it is, and we put one in the book and he's got a scar here from eye surgery and that's been represented in his mummy portrait and things like that. So we do see it in art and we do see it in things, but it's not always what's picked up by scholars in later times, largely probably because of their own desire to use the classical for a very particular agenda, especially in the renaissance or uh, during the european colonization movements. So there's that one um another interesting one in terms of uh documentations and that I find really interesting. Um, it's kind of adjacent to your point. I think kind of illustrates something is the amount of inverted commas great men in history who actually probably are carrying physical impairments, and we know they're carrying physical impairments from the sources, but when we're learning about them we we forget that. It's a really interesting. I've been talking about this recently with a colleague. It's such an interesting process. Um, that idea of disrupting hegemonic norms is really strong. So it's almost like this individual has an awful lot of power or is performing a very important role in our image of the past and the disability just falls off or we separate it. As teachers, we will do a lesson in which we mention that there was an impairment, um, but that won't actually be part of the narrative. It's a really interesting separation. So some examples of that um, uh, julius caesar, we know, had fits um, that is uh recorded in a couple of different literary sources. He we don't.

Speaker 2: 33:05

Obviously, one has to be phenomenally careful about backwards diagnoses. There have been some suggestions this might be akin to epilepsy, but please take that with a massive pinch of salt. And then to have people like Hannannibal barcer and philip philip of macedon, both of whom lost eyes on campaign um, in philip's case, I think he took an arrow to the eye and in hannibal's case he had an eye infection. And these are both men who, in the middle of their meteoric careers, lose an eye. And that is not something we, we tend to see really dwelt on or we tend to read. If you ask a room full of people, they possibly might not even know. I actually didn't, to my shame, until a colleague pointed it out to me, and I'm a greek historian really. So we, the texts do mention it and the sculptures are there. But what's really interesting is, as modern scholars or previous generations of scholars. Their eye slides over it and so that gets reflected and perpetuated in things like teaching materials and scholarship.

Speaker 2: 34:18

To the comment about the worship worship element, it's a really difficult one. So the romans definitely out, they have a concept of it, um, so you, you know, you do get vulcan, um, god who's you know kind of got a bad leg, um, but the, the depictions of you get some. It's a very this is not my area at all and yeah, I wouldn't say the Romans do it, particularly the Greeks. You have a little bit of particular individuals, but it tends to be really coded in my experience. Again, if anyone's watching this who happens to be a scholar of this, I'm really sorry if I'm misrepresenting your discipline, but so one of the things that in my own work I work with myth a lot, I work with Greek myth specifically.

Speaker 2: 35:11

There's a really interesting thing around sight. For example, in Greek myth, um, individuals who see something they shouldn't um, usually naked goddesses, because it's greek myth um, and lose their sight, um, but almost get kind of like a quid pro quo where you have like tiresius who loses his sight but then gets given the gift of like prophecy, etc, and so that that that impairment and that disability kind of becomes this really odd, mystical kind of all tied up. And similarly, homer the blind poet that that blindness you don't even know if homer was a person and so we certainly don't know the status of his, his 2020 vision but it creates a mythos and so you see that slightly more. So, yeah, waving the not my area flag, but like, yeah, it's very specific, very context dependent and often it's doing something, like it's the use of disability and impairment or the presentation of it. It's doing something. It it's it's got a cultural meaning or connotation.

Speaker 1: 36:26

Okay thank you so much for delivering that so quickly. We we need to close now, but I would love to have you back, um. But I need to also thank amazon and MyClearTapes for keeping us on air, keeping us captioned. Thank you, caroline, it's been a real pleasure. I won't quote any Latin at you because I never took it.

Speaker 2: 36:51

I'll forgive you.

Speaker 1: 36:51

I didn't at school, so thank you, you're welcome, been great.