Inside Forrester’s Wave: How Accessibility Platforms Stack Up

The tools that power accessibility are changing fast, but not always in the ways you’d expect. We sit down with Forrester analyst Gina Bhwalkar to unpack the new Wave on digital accessibility platforms and translate its findings into practical guidance for leaders who need results, not buzzwords. Gina walks us through what the Wave actually measures—quality of capabilities, forward-looking strategy, and real outcomes—and why it’s more than a feature checklist. If you’re choosing a platform to manage risk, drive adoption, and support thousands of properties, this is your map.

We dig into a growing split in the market. Some vendors are all-in on prevention inside the software development lifecycle, embedding checks in design systems and CI pipelines. Others focus on compliance monitoring and executive reporting because legal exposure is still the main driver. Geography has become decisive: buyers want local language support and fluency in country-specific laws across Europe and North America, from the EAA to nuanced national requirements. Partner ecosystems now influence delivery quality as much as core features.

AI is everywhere—issue detection, tailored remediation suggestions, org-level summaries, even chat-based education for designers and developers. But compliance is unforgiving. Hallucinated Voluntary Product Accessibility Templates and shaky claims create risk, so we argue for a “human at the helm” approach: use AI to scale, keep experts in control, and center people with disabilities in testing and decision-making. We also surface underserved areas buyers care about, including native mobile app testing and faster, more affordable audit models.

The most surprising insight: customers’ top request isn’t more AI; it’s usability. Platforms that speak only to engineers stall adoption. Clear dashboards, role-based workflows, and localization are what unlock scale across product, design, and business teams. If you’re evaluating vendors, focus on fit: does it meet your legal landscape, integrate with your pipeline, and deliver insights leaders trust? Listen, then share your biggest challenge in scaling accessibility—and don’t forget to follow, rate, and review to help others find the show.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Report Overview
• 1:06 What A Forrester Wave Evaluates
• 3:18 How Vendors Are Selected
• 6:43 Geography, Languages, And Local Laws
• 10:17 How To Access The Report
• 11:01 AI Features Today And Roadmaps
• 14:38 Trust, Compliance Risk, And Human Oversight
• 18:19 Where AI Helps And Where It Doesn’t
• 21:08 Shifting Buyer Needs And Specialization
• 24:54 Future Vendors, Mobile, And Audits
• 27:36 Investor Hype Versus Buyer Reality
• 30:23 Usability, Adoption, And Closing Thanks

Transcript

Neil Milliken: 0:00

Hello and welcome to AXSChat. I'm delighted that we're welcoming back Gina Bhwalkar from Forrester. Gina and Forrester have just released a WAVE report on digital accessibility platforms. These are the things that organizations use to assess accessibility and track the accessibility of websites and products and so on and so forth. And being someone that works in sort of accessibility governance of large organizations, this is a pretty interesting report for me. But Gina, please tell us a little bit more about the research that you've been doing and some of the findings. And welcome back.

Gina Bhwalkar: 0:44

Thank you. Thank you for having me back. It's great to be here. And yes, I'm excited that this research is published. A Forester Wave for those listening who might not be familiar with it. It's basically Forrester's methodology for comparing the top vendors in a particular software or services market. In this particular case, we focused on a software market, which is technologies that help organizations scale accessibility across their experiences. And the way it works, it's about a five-month research project where we are scoring vendors across numerous criteria, both for their existing product, but also their forward-looking strategy. And we're doing that based on inputs that these vendors actually give us. So we do a detailed request for information. We have executives of these vendors brief us on their strategy. We receive product demos, we interview customers of the vendors. So it's a very kind of time-intensive, about five-month project. But the output is this Forrester Wave report. And really, it's intended to help buyers, so people considering purchasing an accessibility platform, make more informed decisions by helping them understand which vendors have the best offerings as it relates to the criteria that are most important for them. And the output of that, you know, that many of you, the listeners, may be familiar with, because you've probably seen them on LinkedIn for many different tech markets. Forrester covers is the Forester Wave graphic, which is a literal ranking of the vendors as leaders, strong performers, or contenders. But in addition to that, there's a detailed analysis of each vendor and kind of Forester's perspective on what types of organizations they're a good fit for, and then a whole experience that supports buyers in generating a short list based on the results of that evaluation. So I thought it'd be helpful, Neil, to maybe talk a little bit about that and what the evaluation involves before we get into some of the insights that came out of it.

Neil Milliken: 2:46

No, I think that it's it's very helpful because not I mean, analyst companies are something that we use in enterprise a lot and we also engage with, you know, because we wish for our services to be ranked and our products to be ranked so that we're attractive to customers as well. But outside of the IT industry or the IT segment of other industries, you know, the analyst houses aren't quite so well understood and the work's not necessarily understood as well. So thank you for breaking that down. That's really helpful.

Gina Bhwalkar: 3:20

Yeah, and I I will one thing I always like to say too, because I actually had someone ask me this the other day, you know, is this basically a feature checklist? You know, what features does DQ have in their platform versus some other vendor? And it's absolutely not. So it's more an evaluation of the quality of the features that exist within these platforms, um, which is why, you know, we have vendors give us three-hour demos. We dig super deep into how the functionality actually works and how our buyer's using it. So in that sense, we hope that it provides more than just, again, a feature checklist, right? It's Forrester's point of view based on detailed analysis of which vendors stand out in different aspects of what an accessibility leader might need to support their program.

Debra Ruh: 4:03

Gina, whenever you're looking at, and first of all, thank you so much for coming back on. And we are hoping you will continue to be a regular guest because we love your work. So thank you. But I whenever you're selecting, whenever first you're selecting the vendors, how how do you decide? That must be so hard selecting the vendors. And I'm sure there are people that well, and I would assume you're looking at it from a global perspective for the vendors. Yes.

Gina Bhwalkar: 4:30

Yes, it is difficult. So we I acknowledge that there are many more vendors out there that have good, interesting, you know, innovative solutions as it relates to helping organizations with accessibility. And many of those vendors aren't in this evaluation. So the way that it works is we we set inclusion criteria before we begin. Um, and the inclusion criteria are pretty, pretty straightforward. So for this wave, we had three of them. One is a standard Forester inclusion criteria where we don't evaluate vendors that have less than 10 million in annual revenue. So that's like the table stakes requirement to be in a Forester Wave evaluation. Um, the second is enterprise level support. So this vendor's offering is mature enough at this point where it's being used by medium to large enterprises. It meets the kind of security and other criteria that enterprise organizations would expect. So, you know, all of the kind of accessibility vendors out there, primarily serving SMBs, you know, not part of the Forester Wave evaluation. And then the third is an interesting one. We call it mind share among Forester enterprise clients. And by that we mean we want to evaluate the vendors that our clients are asking us about, that our clients say they're using because they have suitable offerings to meet the needs of very large organizations. And so those are the three inclusion criteria. Pretty straightforward, but you know, it ends up knocking a lot of vendors kind of out of out of consideration for that reason. But I always like to tell people Forrester loves to engage with small vendors, get briefed by small vendors. We're always trying to stay up to speed on what some of the newer players out there are doing because oftentimes they are going to be the best fit, you know, for certain organizations.

Antonio Santos: 6:21

Gina, thank you for for coming back. Um I'm curious to understand if there's a specific geography that predominates in terms of vendors and if there is those vendors really have capacity to deliver across different regions of the world, or if there can be focused more in some regions due to compliance or regulation.

Gina Bhwalkar: 6:43

Yeah, so that that was actually one of the interesting themes that emerged when I was interviewing customers of these vendors for this year's evaluation is that that geographic focus is becoming more and more important to buyers, right? Buyers want to work with vendors that are familiar with the particular laws that they are needing to meet, right? Because of the countries that they operate in. Also, I heard a lot, I want to work with a vendor that can converse in the local language, right? One reference, they picked their vendor solely because they had a strong presence in Italy and they could converse in Italian. And so, you know, we actually had this year a um a criteria, we called it multiple geographies and languages. And it's the first time we've had it in this evaluation, just as a recognition that, you know, this is something that matters. And to answer the first part of your question, Antonio, the the nine vendors that were in this evaluation, um, all of them were either headquartered in North America or in Europe. You know, some have a heavier presence in in Europe than others. But yeah, certainly this is something that's that's becoming more and more critical. And as an analyst based in North America, you know, I've been really trying to learn more about some of the newer vendors that are emerging in Europe, for example, given all of the attention on accessibility there at the moment, um, you know, who have a deep understanding of what France is doing, what Spain is doing, and the specific country laws and nuanced requirements there. So I think as you see our research evolve, you will you will see more research and kind of highlighting some of the work being done out of Europe. And of course, you know, many of the big vendors are are working to establish more partnerships in those countries to be able to better service those clients. And we look at partner ecosystem as part of our evaluation as well. And this was something that I really asked the vendors about is like, what are you doing to make sure that you have the network, right, in these European countries to be able to support kind of the demand that's being generated there right now.

Debra Ruh: 8:53

Gina, I have um two questions. One of them is I personally, since I'm a small business, don't have access to four stuff. The you know, I'm not a client. And so I know you already answered this off air, but I want you to answer that. But also I'm I'm intrigued and fascinated, and I understand why you did this report. AI is everywhere, everybody's talking about it. Some of the things I'm hearing just sound so ridiculous. I'm like, okay, wow. But you also are living in that world as well. And so I find it fascinating because we're not exactly sure how it's going to unfold, right? It's gonna unfold in a lot of different ways. But I know that, you know, some people had said we'll solve accessibility within a year. What is and then of course we have to say, okay, what does the word accessibility even mean? So I am intrigued about how you even figured out how to go forward with this when it is shifting so quickly. And there are some big billion dollar companies that say, and I'm not gonna say it on air, but they're the experts in II and everybody needs to come to them. And I'm like, why? So I'm intrigued. Obviously, I understand why you took it on, but it must be very difficult because it's shifting so fast. So, how do you even decide? Must be a hard job, Jaina.

Gina Bhwalkar: 10:07

So yeah, no, it's a big question. And I have many thoughts on it that I'll share. Um, I'll quickly answer the first part of your question, Deborah, about how do people get access to the research. Um, so if you happen to be listening and you're a Forrester client, you know, when you log into the Forester site and access the report, I would highly encourage you to go into the compare vendors experience, which is where the power of the wave, I think, really, really comes forward in terms of helping you create a short list of vendors. If you're not a Forester client, it's very easy to find a Forester Wave. Many of the vendors highlighted in the research actually publish the Forester Wave report on their website. So you can fill out a couple of fields and easily get access to the report. So, for example, I've seen Level Access already has it up on their site. So you can you can go there and get a copy for yourself. And I would encourage you to do so. The question around AI is an interesting one. Yes, as I expected, of course, AI was everywhere in this evaluation. Um, as I mentioned earlier, we look at both what's the current offering of the vendor, like what features do they have currently. And that was really interesting. AI is not just being used to detect accessibility issues, of course. Now, you know, we saw a lot of AI generating remediation suggestions that are contextual to the company's design system, for example. I saw some interesting features where AI is being used to help the accessibility program manager get insights into things like just summarize how we're doing at an organizational level across these 10,000 sites I have, for example. And then also AI for education. So several of the vendors have released, you know, AI chatbots essentially that are providing that kind of in the moment support and training and education to designers and developers as they're trying to fix issues, answering basic questions like explain focus order to me, like I'm a fifth grader, you know. So a lot of kind of education-specific use cases, which are interesting as well. But what I found fascinating was more on the strategy side. So we had every vendor present to us about their vision for the future, their roadmap, their approach to innovation. And it was interesting how, you know, there's vendors out there who are saying, look, you know, a year from now, two years from now, AI agents will essentially be able to replace accessibility teams. And then you have vendors who are taking a much more conservative stance on the role AI is going to play, saying, you know, look, we do a lot of business in government, for example, and you know, it they're not quite ready for that. So we're being a little bit more surgical about where we're inserting AI into our product experience. And what I've been really interested in is an analyst kind of looking at that, and particularly an analyst and accessibility, which accessibility is about humans. It's about the human experience, it's about user experience, not just compliance and checking boxes. And so I want to understand what's the human impact of all of this going to be. How are we going to make sure that we keep the voice of people with disabilities in this process? Because I think there's, you know, a lot of noise and point of views out there about how AI is going to do everything. And, you know, that's going to make it easy for organizations. We are not going to need an accessibility team. And I don't think that's true. And I don't think any of us probably think that that's true. So that was part of the challenge with the evaluation. I would say, Deborah, was sort of digesting all of that information that these vendors were telling me and saying which of these actually line up with what buyers are thinking about, what buyers are ready for. And also, you know, what makes a great accessible experience, which I don't think AI can tell us, you know, what are the biggest usability issues for different types of disabled users, at least not yet. And so we need to consider that as we think about how this is going to impact our approach.

Debra Ruh: 14:11

And I think you're a blessing to us because you understand this. We see analysts talking about this that don't. So anyway, I'm sorry, over to you.

Neil Milliken: 14:20

Okay, thank you. So having read read the report and and also spend the last previous week at a conference where many of these vendors were and seeing some of the the stuff, it's a really interesting time because we are seeing the the real sort of revolution in what they're offering over the last 18 months or so. You know, and it's not just sort of the large language models that are that impacting on this. I think there's been a consolidation in the industry. So people are sort of rolling up suites of products because they're recognizing that actually, you know, you need to be doing accessibility in in multiple areas. I agree with you. I don't think that AI is going to replace accessibility teams in the the near term. I think it's going to replace certain elements of testing. It's certainly going to speed things up. I was really interested in one of the vendors has done quite a lot of work on what's called the MCP or model context protocol, which is like a framework for connecting uh large language models into the into their systems and their knowledge base. And that's that to me sounds really interesting in in terms of that you can sort of use agents to customize your workflows and so on and hook into finding easy ways because I think that the the the chatbots are a really easy interface to the knowledge of the systems. So that to me, as someone that works in an enterprise way, you know, it's not just the accessibility teams that need this, it's the whole organization that needs to be enabled. Seems like a pretty smart play. But then I I still have a concern that where you know we are trying to replace the the sort of human contextual stuff with AI, the AI does two things. One, it makes stuff up. We've seen this ourselves, you know, where we were just using AI to run through accessibility conformance reports and it was making up um things that weren't documented in the reports. So even though it may look like the the the product is really good, I think there's a level of um having to check and audit that work still there. Because I don't think that I don't have the trust in the reliability of AI systems yet to be able to do this to a level where I feel comfortable that I'm not at risk of of false positives and false negatives. So um do you, in your view, think that there are and it sounds like it, that there are some vendors that are very gung ho on this and they think they're gonna solve the issue really quickly, and others that are maybe uh have a longer time in the industry or have experienced some of the sort of hallucinations and inaccuracies of AI and they're taking a cautious approach.

Gina Bhwalkar: 17:28

Yeah, I think right now it's really critical that anyone creating software, really in any tech market, but especially in this market, to really continue to have a great pulse on where their customers are and kind of meet their customers where they are. So I will tell you, you know, the customers I interviewed for this research, and you know, these are all customers of these vendors that you see in the report, they're they're very excited about the potential of what AI is going to do. When you ask them, you know, are you planning to switch vendors in the next three years? Almost everyone says yes because they're keeping an eye on what's happening with AI and what vendors are going to be able to kind of add the most value there, but do so in a way where it's responsibly designed and they're considering the ethical impacts of these technologies as well. So that's kind of the first point that I wanted to make. The phrase that I keep using with clients I speak with is like, you know, I don't love human in the loop. I'm I'm totally ripping some terminology I heard from Salesforce around human at the helm, which I really liked, which I think we need to continue to have a human at the helm here. Um, because your point, Neil, like accessibility is interesting, right? At the end of the day, for most companies, this is about compliance. And you don't want to mess around, right? You don't want to have AI generating VPATs for you that aren't accurate. Because if you think you're compliant, you're actually not, that's gonna have downstream effects for you, fines, lawsuits, you know, other consequences depending on what area.

Neil Milliken: 18:57

Absolutely. And we've seen that with reports generated by AI by some of the large consultancies in the press in the last week or so. Over reliance can can really backfire.

Gina Bhwalkar: 19:08

And I think that's why there's um a bit more of a kind of caution among buyers to dive headfirst into adopting all of these features, these agents that that um some of the vendors have have already released um in recent months. I think that's why there's a bit of a hesitancy. Whereas in other fields, let's take experience research for a moment. That's also a market that we're doing a wave on right now. Actually, my colleague Senum Beakley is doing that. Um, a lot of conversation there around like synthetic users, for example, right? Do we need to recruit humans to do usability testing, or could we test with, you know, AI, you know, simulations of these users that represent a target user profile? I think there's more of a willingness to experiment there because it's like, you know, we're just looking to uncover low-hanging fruit usability issues, you know, early in our design process. You know, it's not necessarily going not to harm anyone. It's not gonna put us at risk, you know, per se, if we don't uncover every single usability issue, because we'll catch that in downstream testing where we are actually testing with humans. So there's a bit more of a, I think, interest in experimenting. Whereas when I talk with accessibility leaders, it's a wow, this is exciting. It's gonna help us like overcome some of the long-standing challenges we've had, like being able to scale manual testing. For example, maybe we won't need people to do manual testing in the near future. That could be, that could be quite interesting. Uh, but it's not gonna solve everything. And we're not comfortable going back to your example, publishing a VPAT that a human hasn't done some level of due diligence to like validate that what's being generated, you know, is actually accurate. So I think there's just a lot of interesting questions right now. And I think every organization needs to be taking a deep kind of look at their workflow as it relates to accessibility and saying, you know, where where do we feel AI is going to add the most value? What questions are we going to ask our potential accessibility suppliers, both on the services and technology side, to ensure that they're practicing responsible design and they're not just, you know, releasing the V1 of whatever they've built. Um, and it's going to be generating swap because it hasn't been like thoroughly vetted and tested. So, you know, this is where I think buyers are it's gonna get tough, right? And and, you know, working with both sort of your internal AI experts and reading research from companies from Forrester that tell you what questions you should be asking and kind of probing vendors on is gonna be more and more important.

Antonio Santos: 21:50

Sometimes the organization is pushing that technology is going to solve everything, AI is going to solve everything. I'm feeling that there's a kind of engineering bias behind it because their teams are basically from an engineering background and they lack the social context about what accessibility is.

Gina Bhwalkar: 22:10

I mean, the immediate thought that's coming to mind, and I believe we spoke about this a bit the first time I came on this podcast when we talked about making the business case for accessibility and research we've done there, is you know, the human impact stories have to be a part of that. So I think that's where it starts, right? Is helping your organization, including your engineering leaders, right, who might think like technology is the solution to all things, understand that, hey, if we get accessibility right, it's not just going to help us, you know, reduce risk and avoid fines because we're not in compliance with laws associated with the EAA, but it's also going to help us win more customers. It's going to help us build trust with customers we already have. And hey, here's some of the stories of what it looks like when we do this well. Here's things customers say about us when we do this well. Here's some highlight videos from a recent usability test we did with customers who were blind and what they had to say about our experience. Bringing that human impact forward as part of the business case, I think that's where it starts. Um, and I would say, Antonio, and those organizations where they are just thinking, oh, A is going to solve this for us. That business case probably wasn't made effectively at bringing that human impact element in. So that's what I actually coach a lot of our clients on who are trying to sell accessibility in their companies is you have to help people, you have to appeal to, you know, greed, right? The money. How is this gonna help us make money? And you have to appeal to fear, how is this gonna help us, you know, mitigate risk? But you also have to appeal to the heart. It sounds a little corny, but you know, at the end of the day, we're all people. And so helping organizations understand accessibility is about people, and here's what it looks like when we shut people out, that doesn't feel great. You have to bring that forward as part of these conversations.

Debra Ruh: 24:09

Gina, I know we are gonna get you on again, but we also are almost out of time. So um, I'm gonna ask you a very unfair question. Before we do that, it's not unfair, but basically uh Neil, my friend, you need to mute. We're hearing some extra sounds coming from you. But do you expect when you do the wave again that there'll be new vendors in the wave? I mean, what are you thinking? What as you I'm not saying the current vendors won't be there, but what if you could forecast what you think is gonna happen? What are you what are you seeing? What are the trends?

Gina Bhwalkar: 24:45

Yeah, it's it's interesting. So uh the the wave that we just published, um, one of the things that I I talked about in my in my blog promoting the wave is that divers buyer needs have driven specialization. So I find it very interesting, right, that some of the vendors in this this year's wave are very focused on tooling for the software development lifecycle. You know, they're strongly believe that the only way to achieve accessibility is to prevent it, you know, prevent issues from entering experiences in the first place. And that's where they're putting all their dollars and all their research and development. On the other side, you have vendors that are much more focused on compliance monitoring, which is actually of high interest to organizations right now, given compliance is pretty much the main driver behind accessibility work. So I think that you know, what we're gonna see in the coming years and what I hope we are going to see is that the monitoring for compliance piece becomes a bit easier, right? We talked a bit about the manual testing, for example. Um, it's gonna become less labor intensive. There's still gonna be a strong need for monitoring software, for you know leadership ready reports that we can generate to help the company understand how we're doing. Like that's all gonna be there. But I think we will see more and more vendors kind of emerge on that first side of the equation, which is more of the, you know, how can we enable accessibility more in the software development lifecycle, which is where I think there's the most potential, you know, for AI and AI agents as well. Um I think the vendors will look different next time around. There are a few smaller vendors that I would have loved to include in this evaluation because I'm quite impressed with what they're doing, and they just simply didn't meet our revenue requirement. Um, but these are vendors who are really thinking about how do we take some of these long-standing challenges. Mobile's one of them. People generally aren't very satisfied with the offerings out there for native mobile app testing. There's one vendor that I think has a really great offering, and that's about it. So that's an area, um, the audit business. Like, how do we disrupt that and use technology to make auditing less expensive, less painful, quicker turnarounds? So I think we'll see more vendors in the mix next time who may not have qualified, but are doing some really interesting work that's hopefully going to drive a lot more business for them in some of those areas that I mentioned. Um, so yeah, 18 to 24 months from now is is you know, typically repeat waves every 18 to 24 months. Oh, who knows where we'll be, right? In 18 months.

Neil Milliken: 27:29

Yes. Good assembly knows, but but the the pace of change really on these platforms is really significant.

Gina Bhwalkar: 27:37

Yes.

Neil Milliken: 27:38

I think that the thing that we're not seeing, and you talked about compliance platforms and so on, is the sort of organizational level compliance on lots of policies and processes and all these kind of things, which is part of the the work that that we're doing. Because people are focused purely on digital. Right? So so I think that that's that's something that we'll continue to need to fill the gaps on.

Gina Bhwalkar: 28:05

Yeah.

Neil Milliken: 28:06

I know we're we're actually out of time, which is a real shame, but I'm super happy that we managed to get you back on and that we had this conversation about the platforms, because I think you know often we don't talk about the platforms and the impact that they have, but we really need these platforms to be good and accessible. Uh and I mean accessible to business in terms of affordable and understandable, and that the the businesses and users can really get to grips with. Antonio, I n uh you have a question. Can you keep it quick?

Antonio Santos: 28:39

Because I know we're already uh So we know that many of these companies uh are looking for investment. Do you feel that sometimes the way how they position themselves into AI is not is something that is more driven by being attractive for investors or is something else?

Gina Bhwalkar: 28:59

Absolutely. I mean, I'm su I'm sure that that plays a role, right? And you know, uh yeah, these vendors have an interesting challenge, maybe you could say, of there's the investor persona, right? And so every vendor needs a strong position on AI that's differentiated from others in the market, right? In order to appeal to investors. So yes, that's absolutely happening right now with you know any vendor that's that's backed by investors. And then at the same time, though, I'm gonna keep pushing them that you really need to understand your buyer personas and how that's evolving. Um, and it's not just the accessibility leader because a lot of organizations actually don't have an accessibility leader. They're not they're not even there yet, right? It's the head of e commerce who's out there looking for accessibility solutions and doesn't know a lot about this market and can easily succumb to messaging that you know is leading them to believe there's like a quick band aid solution for them. And so I think, yeah, that that's something I. I'm going to keep pushing the vendors on is yeah, yes, of course, you have to appeal to your investors, but if you don't keep buyer needs at the center of how you're thinking about things, how you're developing your strategy, it's gonna come back to bite you in the long run. And I just I know we're out of time, but I'll just give one example. When I asked buyers, like, what's the one thing you want your vendor to work on in the next three years? Do you know what they said? It actually wasn't AI, the top thing. The top thing was they want these platforms to be easier to use because they're seeing low adoption among business users because many of the platforms are speaking purely to developers and engineers. Yeah. So there's a perfect example, right? That's not a sexy thing to tell investors we're gonna invest substantially in our platform user experience in the next three years, but it's increasingly becoming part of the selection criteria for buyers because they know it has impacts on adoption, and adoption is critical.

Neil Milliken: 30:57

Yeah, and that's what helps it scale. So thank you so much. And I'm glad I let Antanyo answer the question because it was a great one. So we also need to thank Amazon for helping keep us on air and and yeah. So we look forward to sharing this and for you coming back here in a few months and telling us what you've been looking into next time. Thank you, Gina. Real pleasure.

Gina Bhwalkar: 31:21

Thank you for having me.