Who Decides What Inclusion Means?

A fall from a tree, a 42-day coma, and seven years of recovery could have ended a future. For Abdus Sattar Dulal, it sparked one. We sit down with the world president of Disabled Peoples’ International to trace a path from a village in Bangladesh to the halls shaping global disability policy, and we ask what it takes to turn rights on paper into access in real life.

Dulal recounts building community from the ground up: opening a small shop, organizing youth, teaching adults to read, and then stepping into a factory job won after a chess tournament. There, he called out discrimination, faced threats, and chose a different fight—founding a cross-disability organization that he fueled after-hours for years. That drive grew into regional labor advocacy that placed disabled workers into industry roles, then into global leadership through DPI, an alliance spanning about 140 countries with consultative status at the UN and a decisive role in advancing the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

We unpack how treaties become tangible change, from Bangladesh’s rights and protection act to the stubborn gaps that persist: inaccessible schools, untrained teachers, hospitals without sign language interpreters or accessible beds, and websites that lock out shoppers. We also confront the data problem—how countries define disability differently, why hidden disabilities slip the net, and what that means for planning, funding, and accountability. Dulal doesn’t mince words about the funding shortfall; for a population that touches half the world when families are counted, investment remains far too small. His answer is empowerment: disabled leadership setting priorities, controlling budgets, and measuring outcomes so inclusion stops being a promise and becomes a system.

If you care about disability rights, digital accessibility, education, and the UNCRPD, this conversation offers history, strategy, and a blueprint: align laws with the convention, train frontline professionals, mandate access across physical and digital spaces, improve data, and fund disabled people’s organizations to lead. Subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review with the one change you want to see funded first.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 0:58 Dulal’s Accident And Early Recovery
• 2:17 Family, Marriage, And Motivation
• 2:58 First Ventures And Community Organising
• 3:25 Chess Win And Entry Into Work
• 4:08 Exposing Workplace Corruption
• 5:28 Founding A Cross-Disability Organization
• 7:26 Union Advocacy And Job Placements
• 7:50 Path To DPI Leadership
• 8:39 DPI’s History And UNCRPD Role
• 10:42 From Treaty To National Laws
• 11:29 Funding Gaps And Global Neglect
• 13:13 Education And Accessibility In Bangladesh
• 15:17 Data, Definitions, And Hidden Disabilities
• 18:41 Empowerment And Meaningful Inclusion
• 22:58 How To Support And Where To Find DPI

Transcript

Neil Milliken: 0:00

Hello and welcome to AXSChat. I'm delighted that we're joined today by Dulal. Dulal is joining us from Bangladesh. Dulal has recently been appointed as the CEO of Disabled Persons International. He's a globally respected disability rights leader, and Disabled Persons International is one of the world's most influential cross-disability organizations. So we're delighted to have you with us today, Dulal. Please tell us a little bit about yourself and also DPI, because we're we're really interested for our audience to know about the work that you're doing with DPI.

Abdus Sattar Dulal: 0:36

Thank you very much. And good evening from Bangladesh and good morning to you in the United States. And my sincere thanks to Deborah Ru, the founder of Billion is Strong, for connecting me here with Access Chat. And thank you, Neil and Santhius. I was actually born in 1960 in the southern region of Bangladesh, respectable family. When I was 15 and a student of secondary school, I fell from tree and narrowly escaped death by the grace of Almighty Allah. The accident left me also in a coma forty-two days and it takes recovery of me seven long years. Today I live with physical disability and use wheelchair. During those difficult days, my mother, always, you know, her name is Noor Nahar Bagom, prayed tirelessly for me. She obtains aid, Walla, create a way for my helpless child. I love my mother deeply, and she is very special in my life. And she is now eighty years old and still pray for me every day. I'm married also, and my wife is also a person with disabilities. She has a severe disability, and together we are blessed with two sons who do not have disabilities. They are handsome, kind-hearted, and well-educated. And we are very proud of them. 1978, while I was still undergoing treatment, I opened a small shop in my community for income. At the same time, I was also doing Digantumish. It is a youth organization in my community, where I am one of the founding initiators. I volunteer in various government and ounce for Gram in my billets, such as I teach the illiterate elderly people through non-formal education and flannet trees, half-ding canals for rice to the grow the rice plantation in my community and raise awareness for dowdy-free marriage for four girls in four families. Similarly, at the time I felt a strong calling to do something meaningful for others who live with disabilities, as I do. But I had not yet found at that time, you know, to do same thing as I desired into do. But in 1983, I came to Dhaka, it's the capital city of Bangladesh from my village to participate in chess tournament. In chess to name, and I was, you know, flay very I love to flay to num uh chess and you know consult with doctor in a better hospital about my health. In the tournament, I I receive the first fries. I am the winner of the first fries and receive an award from the ceremony. Where I meet with a representative of the Swedish Free Mission. And this mission representative offered me a job in his mission-funded plastic industry. This is very first plastic industry in Bangladesh established at that time, namely Mutri Shilfur, which works to promote employment of person with disabilities. I agreed with his proposal and I started a job as a colorist in his industry in Tungi, industrial area, run under the management of the Social Welfare Department of Bangladesh government, a program which was funded by the Swedish Commission. In the industry, I found unethical factors and discrimination that affect the staff with disabilities. So I protested against the unethical factors and corruption of the management. And due to this, my life was threatened. And I was mentally harassed and physically tortured also when I go from the office to my bachelor corder. I mean, I am the signal at that time. So then the local, you know, gang uh you know gang stars, they are actually harassing me. I submit written demand and complaint to higher authorities afterward with evidence to stop the corruption and unethical factors of the management. No major action were taken by the authority of the management. So in 1985, gaining new insights and clarity and confidence, I saw a strong reason to establish an organization led by persons with disabilities of all types. At that time I was very crazy. You know, it looks like I'll I'll keep someone to, you know, change the whole society like that. I have such type of kind of also some arrogancy also I have. I have some like a commitment to do change that. So I found the BPKS, namely Bangladesh Prativundi Kul Lansumiti. It is a cross-disability organization in Bangladesh. And then with my personal fund, my personal money, I was beginning serving volunteer in Earth as Secretary General. During this period, I continued my government job from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. And from 5 to 0, I dedicated myself to BPCS. I spent every holiday fully engaged in BPCAS. BPCAS means the organization established. Since day I founded the organization, I have never had a moment to talk back. You know, I have I have no time at that time actually. So continue working non-stopping. From 1986 to 1994, I was involved as an advisor to the regional council consisting of the trade unions about the 384 industrial establishment in the area where I do the job. I had the opportunity to visit various industries to participate in the event organized by those trade unions during this time. I spoke at the about the hundredth of events. With this capacity, my advocacy work arranged job 36 disabled people in different industries, including telephone Shilford Shansta in English Telephone Industry Corporation. This success has encouraged me, given me further strength, further confidence to work to hide. I want to ask you some questions.

Debra Ruh: 7:49

So Dilal, tell us how you have an amazing story that you have just talked to us about. What led to you moving into DPI? And was DPI already an organization that you knew about?

Abdus Sattar Dulal: 8:02

Uh thank you very much. It is an excellent, you know, question. It is uh uh also is a very important question. I want to say that uh BPCAS, the organization I established in Bangladesh, this organization is the member of the DPI in Bangladesh. So DPI has a about 140 member country in the whole world. And this organization, this DPI, actually, I'm the elected world president of Disabled Peoples International. I'm not the chief executive officer, I'm the world president of the disabled Peoples International. So this organization actually established in 1981. And this organization worked for the uh till then, it is a work for uh uh for the disabled people in the whole whole world. It is initially it was established in Canada, and uh one of the founders is Henry Ans in Canada. That till then Canadian government was supporting this DPI for global action, and it was its headquarters also in Canada, it was registered in Canada, and DPI is promoted actually for the person with disabilities and contributing the different milestones, including the UNCRPD. You know, UNCRPD was done under leadership of the DPI. DPI was the leader, I mean the lead the whole alliance outside of the UN. And I was also involved in the initial dialogue with the Mexico and and to because one of the national need to needed to propose UN for any UN convention if recurred.

Debra Ruh: 9:53

So this need with this organization. Didn't we get all the countries signed? I think all the countries signed.

Abdus Sattar Dulal: 10:01

No, it is a I think it was signed about uh more than one sixth country already. Right. And it is uh ratify also in a uh similar number, but it is in the available, the data is available if you source in the UN's name of the UNC at V.

Neil Milliken: 10:19

Well, I thought you were you were part way through. But so I think it's fantastic work the the the organizations have done to to contribute to the the the sort of policy formation and bring the the countries together because we need that that convening and we need the the conventions to be the framework for for inclusion. After after the the UNCRPD had been signed up to and most countries, not all have ratified it. What were the next things that your organization then focused on to put the convention into action?

Abdus Sattar Dulal: 11:00

DPI role is basically it is the international civil society organization, and DPI also holds the consultative status with the United Nations. And uh so it has the six regional offices, it has the national assemblies. So through this, DPI role is to advocate in national level and also regional level, international level, to accelerate the, you know, accelerate the signing process of the UNCRPD of the different countries and ratification also, and also to accelerate the implementation of the UNCRPD. And UNCRPD is not independently able to implement in respective country. They need to draft in their own, you know, law in considering the context of the nation. So they they develop their own act, own law. So based on the UNCRPD. Okay. So UNCRPD, we have in Bangladesh like a disabled people's rights and protection act 2020 uh 21 uh um 30, which is endorsed the UNCRPD. By that law, UNCRPD is also endorsed. So that is the role of the DPI, that is the one of the policy level. Okay. And similarly, DPI role is to promote the employability for disabled people, promote the accessibility for the disabled people, the things like, you know, whole world now you see the awareness regarding the person with disabilities. How it happened? It has happened because of the DPI. DPI impact is huge. You know, United States itself is you know involved. Obama administration was signed the UNC NVD. That I think many, it's a huge, huge engagement. 1.3 billion people of the world with disabilities. You know, it's a it's unbelievable. And till now, for this number of people, the world is not utilized 100 million dollars for disabled people. I'm very shamed for that to say, you know, 1.3 billion people world not use 100 million dollars. You know, it's surprising. And it is impossible. You know, we all civil society organizations in the world is struggling because of the funding. We work with our own blood, you know, our own sense, our own commitment, own energy. Nobody is contributing. Most of the government doesn't care. This number of people, but government enjoys our tax. We pay the tax. Of course they enjoy that. They're tax, they enjoy our tax, they enjoy our boat. They enjoy our, you know, we are disciplined people in the whole globe. We are not, you know, yet we are not saying things against the government so severely.

Debra Ruh: 14:01

We don't say severely anything in the in the right, and we see what happens when the governments go out of control. The United States is a perfect example of that. Antonio, did you want to come in and um talk to Dulal?

Antonio Vieira Santos: 14:13

Yes, and uh uh I'm I'm very interested on the aspects of uh education and education and employment. So I would like you to tell us, particularly in Bangladesh, what is the actual expectations for a family with a child with a disability? What are the education expectations that family and that child can have? And also, how are businesses preparing themselves for the digital side of accessibility for people in Bangladesh who want to buy online? And are the sites accessible? Uh, how is accessibility actually? What is the current status of accessibility within Bangladesh?

Abdus Sattar Dulal: 14:52

There is several things in relation to any public service, including the education. In my country, most of the facilities is not accessible, frankly speaking. What we achieve in Bangladesh, I tell you, we achieve the policy in Bangladesh. Most of the stakeholders they have the awareness regarding the person with disabilities. And thirdly, we have the several organizations of persons with disabilities in Bangladesh. They are very dedicated and active in the country. And that is the we have the network, and one of the networks is the National Alliance of the Disabled People's Organization. I am the president of that too. So these are the achievements, and these are the things we have the progress in the country. We don't have the accessibility. Our teacher has no understanding about the how to handle, how to manage the personal disabilities in public school. We don't have proper professional in the country. We don't have the any center of excellence in the country. And we don't have the any, even the pregnant woman with wheelchair admitted in the hospital for, you know, you know, in that case, she don't have the her bed for stay in the hospital. The accessible facilities is not even there. And even we have the more than three million, about three million hearing with disabilities. None of the doctor, none of the health professional in the country understand their language. They don't have the, you know, sign language interpreted or in the health institution. So what the hearing with disabilities say, nobody understands. What is his health problem? What is his disease? What is his pain? What level of pain? Where is the pain? The people don't understand. You know. So this is in Bangladesh is a big problem. This is as I said other day, I said that, you know, it's uncomparable. I mean, we don't have, we have, we may compare with the US, that is in number. Our number with disabilities is higher than bigger, bigger number in comparison with the developed country to the, you know, in Asia Pacific region, about 70% population with disabilities are live in the Asia Facipic region. And in Bangladesh, about as per WHO and World Bank said that is the 16% population with disabilities are in Bangladesh.

Debra Ruh: 17:13

So the area really know the numbers. I think we just don't know the numbers. We haven't done, you know, census everywhere. And of course, this is about not just the US, this is about everybody globally.

Antonio Vieira Santos: 17:25

Everybody, the issue is that everybody around the world measures disability differently.

Debra Ruh: 17:30

So true.

Antonio Vieira Santos: 17:31

If there's a census in Portugal and a census in Spain, the questions will be different, and so the answers. So it's very difficult to assess. There's no universal way across the different sensors to coordinate and to to lead to similar data. So it's very challenging to have that data right.

Debra Ruh: 17:52

Yeah, even and there's so many countries that don't do census at all. So we don't even have data for a lot of the countries.

Neil Milliken: 18:00

Yeah. Abs absolutely. You know, for if we take neurodivergence as an example, many countries don't consider different neurotypes to be a disability. They might consider them to be mental health issues. They may consider that not to be classified as a disability. So those classifications of disability are different. And especially with hidden disabilities, the access and and uh neurodivergent conditions and mental health conditions, access to diagnosis is really uh a challenge, even in the global north, let alone the global south. So the figures are best an estimate.

Debra Ruh: 18:36

I agree.

Neil Milliken: 18:36

But we do know there's that that there's a huge population of people out there.

Debra Ruh: 18:40

Right. And I know when I was teaching in Singapore, I was surprised that they did not, at the time, I don't know that it's changed. I haven't heard that it is, but they don't include little people in their disability definition. So and of course, that's what you were trying to do, Dula, when we were trying to get all the countries to adopt the UN CRPD, because then we can all agree on a definition. I know the states signed it, but we did not ratify it. And our reasoning was political, of course, but also because we have the Americans with Disabilities Act, but we don't comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act in the U.S., generally across the board. So it just really is, it is a big issue. Dulal, what do you what are your hopes for where we could go with uh inclusion of people with disabilities, especially making sure that people with disabilities are leading the way forward? And it is always fun and interesting when we're talking about, as Neil said, hidden disabilities and invisible disabilities, because sometimes we think we're not being represented, but we might be, because what, 70% of the disabilities are going to be invisible. So it's just a little tricky ourselves. But yeah, what do you think, Dulal?

Abdus Sattar Dulal: 19:53

Um, you know, what I understand that 1.3 billion. People we are in the world. And it this number is not just the 1.3 billion. Accommodate within the 50% popular population. I mean, 1.3 billion means that into three or four. So if you add father, mother, or another brother, sister, or husband, or wife, if you add, then this number is increased, reach up to the 50% population. You know. So is without this number of people, the world is not able to move. You know, world is not, I mean, right now it is not moved appropriately. World is not able to achieve its own vision. You know, world is not able to achieve the sustainable development goal, not really resilient society, what UN said, I want to use that terminology. But the world expecting that disabled people should, society should be inclusive. I mean, inclusiveness is not possible without empowerment of personal disabilities. I decide whether I am the inclusive with your action or not. Who you are telling me is the you design a plan that is inclusive for me. You see, someone designed plan and said this is the inclusive plan, but I am not there. I'm not participating in that plan. I am not talking that plan. I'm not given contribution, and nobody's concerned with me. And whether this I love the white.

Debra Ruh: 21:40

Yeah, we gotta reset the money in the white money. Yeah. And we're seeing that. We're seeing that. And and Dilal, I would just say that just to be fair to funders, I think that they have tried to do that. And as you had said also, Dilal, there's, you know, there are groups that say, oh, yeah, yeah, we're supporting people with disabilities, but they're not really. And I understand sometimes an organization gets in a point where you really are trying to survive. And right now, just for example, in the United States, where we're, you know, we've cut all these programs. Not that it's just about the United States. There should be other countries heavily funding too, even though it's horrible what's happened in the United States. But I think it is also, it's already being done. We can't do anything about it. But I think the opportunity is for us to really rethink how this is working, because it is not after so much money's been spent, the reality is we are still not being meaningfully included. I know I know we know that. That's one reason why we all have to come together and really support each other. And it can't be about any one organization. I mean, I've got billions strong. You, you know, you're supporting DPI, but it really is about us coming together in different ways and looking at what worked and what didn't work. But the the confusion, the corruption, the oh, it's so frightening how bad it goes. But I know we're almost out of time, Dilal, but can you tell? I'll turn it back over to you, Neil, but we definitely would like you to tell the audience how they can find out more about DPI, how they could support it, join it, make sure that they have the website. And I know we want to thank our uh sponsor too. But Neil, let me turn it back to you.

Neil Milliken: 23:23

Well, Dilal, please tell tell us what your web address is and and how people can get in touch, and um then I'll obviously thank our sponsors. So so how how do people find uh DPI, Dilal, if they wish to contribute to your cause directly, of course. So thank you so much. It's been it's been a real pleasure to hear about all of the work you're doing. So just to repeat, it's dpi.org to find the the holding page for all of the local organizations. So if people want to find out about their local organization, they go to the members page on that website and they can see the national organizations. Thank you, Julal. I also wish to thank our our friends at Amazon for supporting us and keeping us on air. And we look forward to uh to being able to share this episode with all of our audience. Thank you once again. It's been a real pleasure to meet you. Yeah. Thank you.