Teaching Critical Thinking In An AI-Driven World

What happens when AI accelerates faster than our ability to question it—and our workplaces grow more diverse just as support for inclusion wavers? We sat down with Professor of Practice Gisele Marcus from Olin Business School to unpack the crossroads of AI ethics, DEI, and the core human skill that ties them together: critical thinking.

Gisele takes us inside her course, Leading Across Differences, where students learn to work with people unlike themselves while grappling with tools that can both scale fairness and automate bias. We tackle the most practical question leaders can ask about AI—where does the data come from?—and build from there into model oversight, representation gaps, and the human judgment still required to deploy automation responsibly. Along the way, we examine real-world shifts: how customer service is being streamlined by voice systems, why high-touch account management remains human, and how students are pivoting from vulnerable roles to hybrid careers that pair technical fluency with communication and analysis.

The conversation widens to the social layer: the rise of bubbles, the decline of civil disagreement, and the quiet retreat from public dialogue. Giselle offers tactics students and professionals can use today—moving beyond one-off outreach, asking for referrals and follow-ups, and practicing the mechanics of disagreement through programs like Dialogue Across Differences. We also explore the evolving value of degrees versus micro-credentials and AI-focused certificates, and why universities that teach how to think—not just what to know—will best prepare graduates for jobs that don’t yet exist.

We close on a hopeful note. Inclusion done right drives performance because people do their best work when they’re respected and seen. From highlighting companies that walk the talk to taking small, personal actions that lower barriers, momentum is still possible. If you care about building ethical AI, resilient careers, and teams that can disagree without dividing, this conversation is for you.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a review with one question you plan to ask about your own data or decisions. Your voice helps spark the dialogue we need.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome Back And Role Overview
• 2:29 Inclusion In Business Education
• 3:57 Global DEI Trends And Regional Divergence
• 5:56 AI Ethics And Data Source Questions
• 9:15 Student Fears And Job Market Shifts
• 12:31 Automation In Customer Service
• 15:25 Degrees, Certifications, And AI Niches
• 18:10 Critical Thinking As A Core Skill
• 21:10 Social Media Bubbles And Networking
• 24:05 Learning To Disagree Constructively

Transcript

Neil Milliken: 0:00

Hello and welcome to AXSChat. We're delighted to welcome back Giselle Marcus, who joined us earlier this year. Giselle is to remind you, working in academia, Olin University, Business School, and is really looking at the topics of inclusion into the teaching of business topics. So has a really interesting perspective on, you know, what businesses are thinking and also helping to shape maybe the thinking within business. So welcome back, Giselle. It's great to have us with us. Please do remind the audience and do a better job than I have of your explaining what your role is.

Gisele Marcus: 0:37

Certainly. Well, hello. It is great to see you all again. I had so much fun the first time, and I'm glad you signaled that you did too, because you invited me back. So thank you so much for that. And yes, so I'm here at Olin Business School, which is part of Washington University in St. Louis, and St. Louis is in the state of Missouri. And I am a professor of practice and organizational behavior. And I do teach courses in regard to inclusion. Specifically, I teach a course called Leading Across Differences because we believe that it's really important for our students to know how to work with people that may be different from them. I mean, clearly the world is not going to get less diverse. And no matter what discipline and business they decide to major in, if they're going to be working with people, they're going to probably work with people who are different from them. So that's the space that I teach in. And I'm also a vice dean as well for special projects here at the university. And it is my pleasure and delight to be with you all again.

Neil Milliken: 1:38

Thank you. So we we were talking before we came on air about, you know, some of the changes that have been going on this year with the rapid advances in businesses experimenting with AI, obviously the changes in how organizations are addressing diversity, inclusion topics and and the diversity amongst that between what's happening in Europe, what's happening in North America, and um certainly I know from my perspective of sitting in a global organization with a footprint in North America, that the what's sort of top of mind for leaders in one part of the world is challenging leaders in other parts of the world. So is this something that you're also seeing and and having to address in in the classroom and in the pedagogy?

Gisele Marcus: 2:29

I am seeing that. And um, you know, and what's been interesting, I have been called upon to do more work abroad, particularly in the UK, with companies that have a global footprint. So that has been interesting. So to your point, Neil, I I I'm feeling an uptick in other places around the world, though here in the United States, we're somewhat witnessing somewhat of a rollback, so to speak.

Debra Ruh: 2:54

Yeah. Well said, well said. I have to ask the dreaded question. Of course, AI, uh, it's both an opportunity and a risk for DEI. It can certainly enhance equity when designed intentionally. The tools can reduce bias and hiring and performance. There's so many things we can do to make sure the underrepresented groups are now being represented and included in different ways. I was just wondering, do you see a lot of conversations tied around that as well? I do. Yes.

Gisele Marcus: 3:25

And since we last spoke, I actually had a speaker come in and talk about ethics in AI. So this very, very topic and how AI, you know, can be exclusionary because it's really all about, I mean, it's all about the machine language. So it's going to produce what is within it, right? And what this speaker was trying to do, which I thought was really important, was trying to really provide tools for leaders in the workplace in terms of what to do, what questions to ask. And one of the very basic questions is, you know, where is this data coming from? Right? What is the source of the data? And when you know that, then that allows you to be able to, you know, assess, you know, is there something that's missing there? You know, are we maybe using the wrong source? And this is the piece that set, you know, people are afraid, some many people are afraid of AI because they're they're saying it's going to replace jobs. And yes, in some cases it will, but critical thinking is still going to be necessary. So even in this case, like with AI, a person has to be able to ask the right questions in order to get to a place where they're where we're ensuring that there is fairness within the AI tools that we actually use. And I know today there's so many different um, just being online, so many different places to get pulled into to get training. And it's it can be a little overwhelming, right? So I think it's important for people to just kind of decide what area of AI is important. Because when you say artificial intelligence, it's a very broad topic, right? So for me, in terms of what I teach, it is around the ethics and artificial intelligence. And when I sit on boards or when I'm in a classroom with my students, really helping them to generate the right questions to ask, um, which bet which shit which really sheds light on the fact that human intervention is still needed, you know, when we talk about artificial intelligence.

Antonio Vieira Santos: 5:34

So, Giselle, um when you interact with your students, and what are the things that they are concerned about in in relation to the the impact of artificial intelligence on their studies? Because it might happen that many of them might have made decisions about studying a certain topic before all this wave coming into place. So it will be interesting to know what they think about this. And then on the other side, how can you and your peers in the academia work to address those concerns? Sure.

Gisele Marcus: 6:10

So a couple of areas where I see students being concerned, particularly those that are going down a path where they're going into areas of technology, right? And for example, anyone that's doing things like programming, for example, a number of those jobs may be replaced by AI. So I see students trying to pivot because the market right now, in terms of looking for jobs in general, is very tight and really trying to position themselves to have more options than less options. So I would say the area of IT is one. The other area for people that are, and this is my love too, like operations, when it comes down to customer service, customer interaction, much of that now is beginning to be automated, right? I mean, even when I've called, I think it might have been Sirius XM actually, because I wanted to see my annual subscription was up. And I wanted to see if I could, you know, possibly capture a lower price. And if not, I was like, ah, I'm just going to cancel it. So I've done this before. And in the past, I mean, when I say before, at least three times, you know, you're talking to a person who kind of walks you through it all. And it takes quite a bit of time to get to what you want. This time, it was all a voice that was mechanized, but it answered my questions and it gave me a new annual price that was less. I didn't have to talk to a person, and I got to the solution faster. So students that are interested in that customer interface, some of those jobs, right, are being replaced by AI. However, still those areas where you have high customer touch, because I come from a commercial real estate facility management where you have clients that are in, you know, the Fortune 1000, for example. And that level of interaction in terms of the person that owns the account, you know, that person is going to still need someone to handle them in a human way, because these are like multimillion dollar accounts, for example. So you'll still see threads, but at a different level when it comes down to that. But you're right, students are pivoting. And oftentimes students come to get a master's in business because they're they're usually trying to pivot and do something different, or they're trying to up level currently where they are. So we try to the best of our ability to be future looking and to provide opportunities or at least widen their lens through like our career engagement center in terms of what the options are for students.

Debra Ruh: 8:57

I I just wanted to say that I love that answer. And if my heart goes out to the students and people looking for jobs right now, people that are losing. Anyway, because this is just intense for everybody. But I also want to just uh give a little grounded example that agrees with what you just said. I remember when we first really got into the chat GBT, you know, when we the society started really using it a lot. A lot of marketing people lost their jobs, a lot of content providers lost their jobs. But then what we realized was we we really do need those human marketers because just putting out content is not, it's just not what it's about. We have so much content thrown at us now. So then we started seeing marketing people being rehired. And so I'm hoping that everyone, that certainly employers consider we don't know enough to start laying everybody off yet. We just don't. My heart aches for the students trying to figure it out and the professors like you trying to guide them. Exactly. And the biggest change we've ever seen. So, and Neil, I know you wanted to come in. Go ahead, Giselle. Let me give it over to you.

Gisele Marcus: 10:02

You know, the only thing that I was going to say, you know, is also here in the United States, you'll see that there's also, you know, an attack on education, an attack on getting degrees, right? So that too is challenging our students in terms of getting to work. It also challenges the higher education industry, you know, around other ways of producing revenue, right? Besides having a butt in a seat, right? What else can we do? And can we also have a butt in the seat? You know, oftentimes in higher education, we do that for to confer degrees, right? But we do recognize the truth of the matter is that everyone, a degree is not for everyone. And a degree is very expensive today. So I think it's important for educational institutions to also think about the student who isn't the traditional, I want to get a degree student, but I do need maybe a certification. And I think AI is going to help with that a great deal because you can get into a niche of AI, learn that, you know, and then be able to be employed. And you may not necessarily, you know, need a degree. So I think that that is that also is something that we're seeing where universities are having to pivot to provide more options for our students.

Neil Milliken: 11:24

Yeah. So this is certainly reflected in um some of the stuff that I've been working on in the UK for the last few years, with, for example, the Institute of Coding, where you've got modularization of courses, right? So so people are taking particular courses and micro certifications, and they then eventually count up to to maybe count for a degree. But people are choosing things that help them on specific topics. So that so that's one area that I've I've seen already moving before even this year, but I think that that's accelerating with the changes in the sort of landscape. But I wanted to go back to the sort of comment you made about critical thinking, because you're saying you can't do without critical thinking. Our CTO of the organization that Antonia and I work for had had written an article about the sort of the dropping cost of cognition, and he was talking about AI here, because all of the growth in the US economy is is is really built upon the investment that these large companies are making in infrastructure for AI and the dropping cost of you know using that. Now, they're not necessarily making revenue, and that's a separate issue, but but they're saying the cost of cognition is less. So it's going to cost you less to use this tool to do things. Now, my concern is that what we're doing is we're offloading thinking, right? So so you're saying we still need critical thinking, and I fully agree, but it's really easy for people not to think critically. So I think that this is an area that we need to teach people, right? And we need to teach people young how to think critically and how to question. Because otherwise, I think then we're you know, potentially setting up problems for ourselves as society. So, how do you see this playing out in education?

Gisele Marcus: 13:16

I like what you're talking about. I like this a lot. Because my thought has always been, even with the traditional um degree programs, my thought has always been the best gift that you can give to your students is this gift, Neil, that you're speaking of, the ability to be able to think. Why? Because fields come and go, right? I mean, uh, and this happens all the time. So when we think about um, you know, like developing apps, for example, there was a time there were no apps. That wasn't even something that was available as an option. So how does a student or someone pivot into that? And I, you know, I always think about from a critical thinking perspective. So it's like, do you know how to um or feel comfortable going into a new field that you don't know anything about because you have the smarts to be able to learn it, to be able to catch on. So you have to prepare students for things that you don't even know are on the horizon yet. And, you know, if we think about, you know, and then if we go way back to um, you know, before automobiles or what they were, we had horse and buggies, and but then that actually changed, right? And we went from, you know, we now have electric cars. Um, and these are things we didn't have before. So if you don't know how to think critically, I think it creates a problem when you see something new that is emerging that you know nothing about. But if you're able to think, then you're able to pivot and move into that. I mean, how often I think about, I came from the telecommunications industry, and so did my mom. And there are very specific things that like in the in the which you would never see, but in the room where they have switches and which is how your phone actually works when you were dealing with landlines, and you just had that skill set, you could only work in telecommunications, right? I mean, because who else has that? That's that's really it. But if you're able to apply that to, you know, another industry by being a critical thinker, then that's when that comes in handy. So I think that that's always been what's important in terms of teaching. It's just a matter of, you know, are all of our universities catching on to that to prepare. I would say it's really about preparing students for what's unknown because we don't know what the next wave is going to be. I mean, right now, you know, we're on the AI wave, but you know, but what's the next one? We don't know. But are our students prepared for it? And I believe that the schools that are able to prepare their students for the unknown are going to be the institutions that win from a revenue perspective.

Neil Milliken: 16:04

Yes. And I know Antonio's got a follow-up to that.

Antonio Vieira Santos: 16:07

Well, we know many of the students they have been grown up using social networks. Those social networks tend to put them in bubbles of perspectives. How do you see them navigating into critical thinking, considering that they have been in this comfortable space in their social networks that sometimes when something is they they might struggle when they need to face a divergent opinion than the one that they are used to consume over networks?

Gisele Marcus: 16:38

Yeah. This this is the million-dollar question, right? Because people younger people, you know, are relying on, like you say, these social networks, right? But when we think about how people are obtaining jobs today, a lot of it is based on who you know, more importantly, who knows you more than it was traditionally. So if you're relying on a social network that doesn't have human interaction, I think you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. I think you have to go for a hybrid model. Um, and that's something that we teach our students here is yes, we want you to find a job, find an opportunity. But in so doing that, you need to know how to talk to people, how to find people who are part of your village. I had a conversation yesterday with a student who is interested in, um, she was in my class, she's interested in working in Washington, D.C., and she's interested in nonprofit. And her question was, she's like, you know, in your class, you talk about networking because I do. And she said, I feel somewhat awkward reaching out to people that I don't know, because we'll always tell you, reach out to people that are alumni from Olin, right? And she's like, Well, I don't know them, so I feel uncomfortable. I said, Well, first of all, they're likely going to be open because you have something in common, right? And then she got caught up on, well, suppose they don't respond, suppose they don't answer. I said, Well, then first of all, let's just also remember if people don't answer you on a platform or an email or something, one thing, they may not have even seen it. So let's start with that, right? And then what we want to double-click into are the people that do answer and do respond. So I think something that's missing is we often tell our students for various reasons to meet their goals, we tell them to network, meaning have human interaction with people. But I think oftentimes what's missing is how do you go about doing that, right? And one thing that I've noticed with students is sometimes they're what I'm gonna call a one-hit wonder, right? So they'll do a reach out, they'll have a conversation, they'll have a Zoom, and they never talk to that person again. And that happened with this particular student. She's like, Well, I don't know how to keep the conversation going. I said, Well, when you were in the conversation before you ended it, a good question would have been, knowing that I'm looking for an opportunity, may I reach out to you, say, you know, once a quarter to let you know how I'm doing, or may I speak to someone else at your company that does something similar to what you do, or do you know someone else, like trying to ask for that opportunity to communicate while you're there so it doesn't feel awkward. So, Antonio, you are you are onto something, and I think that it's somewhat of a black box. We instruct, do this, but we don't teach how to do it.

Neil Milliken: 19:31

So I I'd love to follow up on that. Uh I think the other bit that Antonia was alluding to was the the fact that people are are are less used to being able to disagree, right? Because we've segmented, right? You know, what what happens now is like the you you've you've almost sort of got the tribes, whereas before on social media you would have the s different tribes on the same platform. Yes. Now they're on different platforms. Are in like they're completely separated bubbles. So people are less used to being able to disagree in a way that is constructive. And so what you see is the deplatforming and so on. So how and and like universities have experienced this also, right? So um you know, where it's become universities always used to be the places where everybody was free to have divergent opinions and controversial ones, and it's become more difficult to um to have those spaces where people can have divergent opinions. So, so how do we address some of those things? Because if we don't allow people to disagree, what you end up with or enter into discourse with people that we disagree with, then what you end up is is with the tribalism and really serious discord and social dis uh disharmony that that is what we're what we're seeing right now. Is that is that something that you can address?

Gisele Marcus: 21:02

I can. And thank you for bringing that up. So I even see in earlier, like in K through 12, that's lacking, right? There's been a lot of reports about, you know, if people disagreed, you know, when I went to school, I don't know, you might tell somebody to meet you at three o'clock in the um, you know, in the um at the basketball court, right? And you may have some words there and you may put your dukes up, and that's it, right? But today, like someone might shoot you for that, right? I mean, it gets it gets violent, road rage, right? So there's been a lot of dialogue about we no longer teach young people how to disagree, how to walk away. Or is that really important enough? You stepped on my toe. I mean, is that something that you really need to pull out a gun for, right? So I think it even starts before they even get to institutions of higher learning. And somehow that's missing. We don't necessarily have that anymore. So, Antonio, I think that you are onto what I'm gonna call a gap. And I know here at Washington University, we have this uh DXD dialogue across differences. And it is a uh, you can opt in to be a part of it. And they actually teach these premises about how to disagree. But to your point, Antonio and Neil, I feel that something like that should probably be required, right? As opposed to an option.

Neil Milliken: 22:27

Totally agree.

Gisele Marcus: 22:28

Yeah, it's because it's a it's an essential skill. I mean, even just in your personal life, you're gonna disagree with someone in your family. And how do you go about doing that constructively without ruining, you know, a relationship with someone? So I think you're on to something. I think we don't have very good answers. I think we have pockets where it's addressed, but a lot of young people are missing out on that.

Neil Milliken: 22:52

I think the answer is my wife is always right.

Gisele Marcus: 22:54

Neil, you're smart. Yeah. You're smart. Yes, you're smart. You should meet my husband.

Neil Milliken: 23:00

But but aside from that, and those uh no, Martina, you know, we'll will know that she's always right. Um, but but may I used to take pleasure in following and interacting with people that I didn't agree with. And that's become harder in the social media landscape that we now have because of this polarization. You can't really interact anymore because people don't interact, they sort of attack. Um and and what that's led to also is a disengagement. So what what we're seeing um new trend, which people are calling posting zero. And I I feel it, right? So I've disengaged from lots of platforms, but I don't feel like I've got the energy to put into it. We stopped doing the the QA for access chat because people weren't engaging. You know, we'd make all of the questions for the social media chat, and then three or four people instead of three or four hundred people would be posting. People still listen to the podcast, they consume content, but they're not engaging in dialogue. And I think we need to be encouraging dialogue and encouraging that, you know, it's through dialogue, it's through disagreement that you learn, right? I learn that I'm wrong through, you know, through conversations with lots of people, not just my spouse. And and you grow through being wrong.

Gisele Marcus: 24:18

You really do. It's uh it's definitely a gap. And um, I would say for institutions at all levels, this is something, this is an an area that you can it's low-hanging fruit, right? To produce better people.

Neil Milliken: 24:31

Thank you. Yeah, uh thank you so much. It's it's really um been a great pleasure to have you back on. I I need to also thank our friends at Amazon for keeping us on there uh and and supporting us all this time. Do you have any like final closing message that you'd like to give as we uh we are rolling towards the end of 25, some hope for 26, maybe? Yeah, so I would say that, you know, there are pockets, even though I'm in this space where you know inclusion is being challenged, there are so many people who are still, you know, waving the flag and understanding that inclusion is important and it's a way to get to better results, you know, because when you treat people well, they'll do well, right? So when you think about profitability of organizations and things of that, you know, those that are um not being inclusive, right, but let the numbers speak for themselves, right? So I would say that. And then there are, you know, when we see organizations that are doing um doing inclusion right, I think it's important to raise our hands and pat them on the back. And one of the things that I've started doing, so here um in the US, there's a organization called Costco. It's a retailer. They have, you know, inclusion is just really part of who they are, you know. So they actually walk the talk. It's not just some words. And, you know, what I've started doing is giving away, because you have memberships, free memberships to people that are, you know, interested in getting a membership that may not be able to afford a membership. So I think there's always small ways. I think think about the small ways that you can help the cause that's important to you. You know, inclusion is one for me, so that's one way that I'm helping. But going into the new year, I think it's a good time to think about how you might assist in that effort. Thank you. And one last thing. If people want to connect with you and have conversations with you, where can they find you?

Gisele Marcus: 26:33

They can find me on LinkedIn at Giselle Marcus, G-I-S-E-L-E, last name Marcus, M A R C U S, and my website, www.gisellemarcus.com, and on Facebook, I am I am Giselle Marcus. Look forward to seeing there. Thank you.

Neil Milliken: 26:50

Thank you. It's been a great pleasure.