How The European Parliament Can Make Accessibility Real

Accessibility is not a “nice to have” add-on to the economy. It is consumer protection, civil rights, and a growth strategy, and it only becomes real when disabled people are in the rooms where power is exercised. We’re joined by Katrin Langensiepen, a Greens Member of the European Parliament, to talk candidly about what disability representation looks like inside EU policymaking, and how easily the media and the public can reduce a disabled politician to a single topic even when the work spans internal market regulation, social affairs, and equality. 

We also get honest about intersectionality and why some people resist the word. Disability never shows up alone: it intersects with gender, migration, race, poverty, and sexuality, and ignoring that reality leaves the most marginalised people behind. Katrin and our hosts explore how ableism shapes fear, how “inspiration” framing can still be dehumanising, and how far-right narratives can pretend to be on disabled people’s side while blaming migrants and refugees for scarcity. That strategy works when communities are made to feel they must compete for dignity. 

From there, we shift to the European Accessibility Act and what enforcement really takes. EU accessibility law can set a powerful umbrella standard, but member states control implementation, monitoring, and penalties, which can mean delays, half-measures, and court battles. We connect the dots to AI regulation and assistive technology: AI can close gaps for disabled people, but it can also automate discrimination in hiring and services unless rules protect human rights. We close with a practical lever that often gets overlooked: procurement power, and why buying standards can move markets faster than good intentions. 

If you care about disability rights, EU accessibility, inclusive tech, and AI governance, listen now, share this with someone who works in policy or product, and subscribe and leave a review with one accessibility change you want enforced next.

Transcript

Neil Milliken (00:00)
Hello and welcome to AXSChat. I'm really delighted that we're welcoming back Katrin Langensiepen to AXSChat and Deborah gets a chance to talk to her this time because last time Deborah wasn't around. So,

Debra Ruh (00:12)
you

Neil Milliken (00:13)
is a representative in the European Parliament for the Greens and is absolutely fundamental to the disability inclusion movement representing disability and democracy within Europe as…

as a person with a disability, so it's great to have you back. Obviously, you're doing more than just representing disability policy, you're working on policies across the piece, but we don't have enough disability representation in politics in general, so

Katrin Langensiepen (00:42)
Yeah.

Neil Milliken (00:42)
it's really important that the role that you're playing as a member of our community representing in politics. So, welcome back, it's great to have you back.

Would you please tell us a little bit more about what you do because I'm sure I've mangled it.

Katrin Langensiepen (01:00)
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for the invitation and having me. yeah. I am a member of the European Parliament for the Greens since 2019 and before I was a member in the local council of Hanover. So and I'm in politics since 2011 to s and 2010. and when I started my focus was more or less on

social justice, poverty, not really on disability. I I I wasn't really aware of and it was not a topic. Inclusion, diversity was not really relevant. Self-representance was not really a topic. so that came later.

Neil Milliken (01:33)
you .

Katrin Langensiepen (01:45)
And that opened windows of opportunity to me to say, okay, we need a diverse list of candidates. That was the will of my party. And it stands and falls with a sort of political will. And so I was connected, people knew me, and a visible disability can have an ad advantage because Katrin, who? Katherine.

Neil Milliken (02:10)
.

Katrin Langensiepen (02:11)
and I had no problems with as long as I'm not seen only she as long there is a mix and there was a mix and I must say then you have the contacts, the trust and the support of powerful people. and a feeling how can I represent a party and not

am I pushing for my

For me, myself, and I

And of course I'm not only there for disability rights, I'm for many other things. but people or the media don't see it. So when I I was in Syria, the media didn't report about it. I am on in the IMCO committee in the European Parliament, that's the c power most power

Neil Milliken (02:58)
. you

Katrin Langensiepen (02:55)
powerful p committee on internal market. It is consumer protection, it is AI, it is the global democratic questions. we are working and I see myself being a member of the group and not Katrin is a single person flying around. And to have that balance. I think

that is important. And I'm in the

Neil Milliken (03:19)
you

Katrin Langensiepen (03:20)
Social Affairs Committee, Internal Market Committee, and in the Committee for Equality, so f Feminists' Rights and Human Rights.

Neil Milliken (03:29)
Okay.

Debra Ruh (03:29)
which is really, really important. And I'm just so glad that you came back on because we do not see leadership, visible leadership in our field very often.

And so I'm just really so honored that you're coming back on. And I know that we talked a little bit before we came on air about even more vulnerable parts of our community, women and children. And we were talking a little bit about the importance of the intersectionalities, the intersections.

Neil Milliken (03:46)
you

Debra Ruh (03:56)
And I remember somebody said to me, coming out of, it was right when the United States had decided to reelect the current president again. I voted another way, that's okay, we're Americans

Katrin Langensiepen (04:09)
Hmm.

Debra Ruh (04:11)
here. But at the same time, it just caused so much havoc all through.

all over the world. And I remember one person coming out of the UK had said to me, well, Deborah, I see you're creating Billions Strong and this Disability Mirror Index. That's great. But I hope you've done with the nonsense about that intersectionality. And I

Katrin Langensiepen (04:32)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Debra Ruh (04:33)
was so shocked that this particular person said that to me, first of all. But also, what are you talking about? This is us. This is us when you're talking about intersectionality. So.

I want to applaud you for really doing nothing about us without us. First of all, that's what you represent. But I was wondering if you could talk about why the intersectionality continues to be so

Katrin Langensiepen (04:58)
Yeah.

Debra Ruh (04:58)
important.

Katrin Langensiepen (04:59)
first of all, you are not only a white man. I create a picture, a white man in a wheelchair. You are a father, you are a son, you taxpayer, you are more than a person with. I think the fear of disabled people when we talk about words like inclusion and integration.

Is finally we have something, we disabled people, the l they listen to us, and now there is another group coming or more visible or taking something from me. the fear of they will I will be the loser in the in the chain when it comes to discrimination, and that is

Few watch numbers, it is sometimes it's true. when it comes to there is a hierarchy on on different groups, and a society is less scared of disabled people because the ableistic view is all the poor people. And a disabled woman is not dangerous, really seen dangerous.

For a non-disabled woman. They don't even think about it. So disabled people are not really, scary, it's more like all poor. We have the same in the European Parliament on intersectionality. It is I will I I I try to distance. And the far right play very good with. And when you see it in different countries.

Where the far rights are already powerful. they play very nice, they play very s friendly, they don't attack us. They're super nice. My colleague, Ira Iraqi background, she's afraid in the European Parliament. She said that very very open and public. I'm not really f afraid that people attack me. They wouldn't even think about to attack me.

And it's the far right play with without the refugees, without the migrants, we would have more money and your situation would be better. And people believe it. And so they we have disabled people, they vote for the far right. Because it's finally, it's finally on us. the German disability group, let's say.

We are still very aware because of the Second World War, because of the murder against people with a disease or disability. You see, countries they didn't make or have made this kind of experience are not that don't have a real prop problem with. But Austria and Germany, yes.

Italy, from the disability council. So, what's the difference? Maybe that is a fear of I'm not disabled. my god, don't put me in that box. Yeah, from the other side. sometimes cultural issues,

it's

Debra Ruh (07:42)
Right.

Katrin Langensiepen (07:42)
a family issue, don't show it. different cultures, different situations.

People from different cultures treating me differently. your poor girl. I see you are so powerful. And I have injured my hand, and you have to deal with such a disability. You are such a brave and insp inspiration porn. And here the culture and the background and age. So I put it in the box and I say, yeah, thank you. and I go go away.

so that the different this how you see disability and why you're not be in the team migration or in the team queer or in the team disability.

Neil Milliken (08:12)
.

Debra Ruh (08:21)
Right.

Yeah. And all these things are human. It's just a disability is such a normal part of being human. So is sorry. So is being queer. So is any other word that we can bring up here. so, but Antonio, I don't know if you had a question. Do you want to come in? I was, apologies. Okay.

Neil Milliken (08:40)
So, think we're juggling behind the scenes here. So, I think there's a couple of things that I wanted to pick

up on and we've found a back channel. I'm having some technology issues for those that are wondering today.

Debra Ruh (08:51)
you

Neil Milliken (08:53)
So, Katrin, you brought up some really valid points. And I'm sort of as someone on the periphery of Europe, I'm always interested in watching.

I would rather that Brits weren't so on the periphery. A bit like Deborah, you know, I voted in a different way to the way that my compatriots did, but still. So, you mentioned that you're in the committees around consumer protection and the European Accessibility Act is actually a piece of consumer protection legislation, right? And

Katrin Langensiepen (09:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Milliken (09:22)
it's just over a year since it came into force and

we

are seeing the enforcement of that happening in places. What do you think the impact is? There's certainly been a recent ruling in France with Carrefour, for example, so it's starting to show that the legislation has teeth. But do you feel that there has been a lot of impact in the years since it really came into force, or do you think it's going to take a bit more time yet?

Katrin Langensiepen (09:49)
yeah, that's why I love my my European level, because we create the the the big umbrella when it comes to consumer protection or accessibility. And in the end, the Member States, that is for the non-EU people here, the Parliament controls. The parliament, it's a group is a house elected by the citizens in the European Union and we

can have a political push impact voice to push the member states into into commission. how far are we? it's good that we have a European law. is it strong enough? What is the weak point? the member states are always aware when we negotiate. please wait with the implementation.

We say yes to the count, yes to the to the content, what you want, but the implementation please in ten years. Yeah, that is to to to to paint a sharp picture. And then you say, Okay, let's vote for the content and the ten years. my god.

Neil Milliken (10:39)
If.

Katrin Langensiepen (10:47)
yes. The Member States must implement it, they must monitor it. what happen if a country just ignore it?

Neil Milliken (10:52)
.

Katrin Langensiepen (10:54)
So just waiting, keep the people waiting. and so that is a challenge. we do have tools to start an infringement procedure if you don't respect or do what you have to do as a member state. But it's very slow. So you need a a long a long breath, as we say, to

and that is a bit the problem. And the general problem is German economy that persons with disabilities are not seen as customers, clients, seen as a cost factor. We had it during the negotiation for the disability card. We have it when it comes to accessible products, when we have it websites, web pages,

company,

Neil Milliken (11:34)
you

Katrin Langensiepen (11:35)
and we have numbers from the OECD. what does it cost?

A society, a government, if we are not willing to invest into accessibility. We lose customers, taxpayers, clients, voters, and how yeah, what do you lose if you're not investing? And here, ableism is very visible by questions. first question is always who's paying for it?

Who is responsible for it? Please not me. And the picture of if we have that law and we have to implement it, millions of persons, not only the EAA, the disability card as well, millions of disabled people will be organized on the same date, same time, to flood the system. That is the picture in their head.

Neil Milliken (12:24)
Yes.

Katrin Langensiepen (12:23)
ableism and

not see we could gain more clients members in our society and here that is what we fight for but yes we give the push and the problem is the implementation all member states have to do it but then the devil is in the detail different countries different laws different

movements, different governments, they slow down it a bit, or it's half-will. It's like, okay, we do something, nobody will realize it. And then we see each other in a court in in the European court in in Luxembourg, I think. In the end you need to go to the court.

Antonio Vieira Santos (13:02)
So Katrin, early in the month in Cork, I had helicopters all over

Neil Milliken (13:03)
Thank you.

Antonio Vieira Santos (13:08)
my house as the European Commission was here for the opening

Katrin Langensiepen (13:10)
Yeah.

Antonio Vieira Santos (13:11)
of the Irish presidency. I met the European Commissioner for Justice, Rule and Law and Consumer Protection, Michael McGraw, a few times. I

Katrin Langensiepen (13:19)
Yeah. Very good.

Antonio Vieira Santos (13:22)
asked him a question about the European Accessibility Act.

in an event that took place here in Cork, he was a bit surprised, know, why would someone ask about accessibility? Now, he was a bit surprised by my question. So what I would, in this phase that Ireland is leading Europe for six months, what could they do to bring more attention to this? Because I remember, you know, something close to my heart during the Portuguese presidency,

Neil Milliken (13:34)
.

Katrin Langensiepen (13:42)
Mm-hmm.

Antonio Vieira Santos (13:50)
nothing much was done, now I'm Portuguese, now I'm in Ireland, what could Ireland do in order to bring this? And also it's important that the commissions are not afraid of talking about the topic, but sometimes they seem to avoid it, something that is in their scope

Katrin Langensiepen (14:07)
Yeah.

Antonio Vieira Santos (14:07)
of action.

Katrin Langensiepen (14:08)
Yeah. right. Very good question. We had the debate yesterday with the Irish presidency in the LIBE Committee. The LIBE Committee is the Committee for Human Rights, Horizontal Anti Discrimination Directive, and so on. And we asked the Irish people, and they are willing to to do, but we do have more

The narrative is defense and the narrative is competitiveness. And so that is more the focus they have, and that is how member states and the Commission look like. And if Madame von der Leyen is not willing to present something, we we are still waiting for laws, and then you have to present a law, and we can react on very easy speaking. and that we do have.

Countries they want to push and they they are our allies and we need them. but six months is not much. And in the end, Germany is the biggest member state, so there is nothing to see, of course, for the other member states. It's no excuse, it's an explanation. but we see a shift.

Neil Milliken (15:08)
.

Katrin Langensiepen (15:12)
everywhere that is not really relevant. and it's not a question of money, it's a question of will. And here I see the Irish willing as partners and open. And they reached out one year ago to me and say here Katrin,

Neil Milliken (15:13)
.

Katrin Langensiepen (15:29)
when we are in in the in the lead, let's let's prepare something before. So there is a a will from from the Irish.

Neil Milliken (15:31)
you .

Katrin Langensiepen (15:39)
But they are not the the king of Europe, let's say. So to be f to be fair there is a will, but of course power is limited.

Debra Ruh (15:43)
Thank

Right. Ketrin, I want to shift just a little bit on another topic that I know you're talking a lot about, and we continue to be grateful for that. Also,

just for any Americans watching, as a reminder, 27, 27 countries in the EU and 10 countries right now in queue trying to join the EU. So it's very exciting to watch it happen. I noticed none of them were states from the United States. Just kidding.

Just kidding. Anyway, I shouldn't kid like that. But I want to ask you about AI, is a topic we talk a lot about on Access Chat. But what do you think, Ketrin? Do you think AI is going to be just a tool that can really help us with these gaps and figuring out all these moving parts? Or

Katrin Langensiepen (16:35)
Mm.

Debra Ruh (16:36)
is it going to be, once again, just another way to show inequality and not include people?

Katrin Langensiepen (16:43)
Yeah.

It can be

Debra Ruh (16:44)
Sorry.

Katrin Langensiepen (16:45)
great for disabled people. I think the internet and smartphones made life easier, especially for when you see young disabled people, what sort of chances and opportunities they have. We didn't have in the past. So that is still good. On AI, we have regulation.

Neil Milliken (17:00)
Okay. Okay.

Katrin Langensiepen (17:10)
And we wanna regulate and control the big tech bros as we call them. and here you touch a nerve of the American tech bros. They don't like it. And here's Europe, and I we do it every time. And I was exactly we we we and that's why it's so important that we keep the the the bond between the states, Canada.

Neil Milliken (17:20)
you

Debra Ruh (17:20)
Yep, yep. But please do it, please do it anyway. Sorry.

Katrin Langensiepen (17:35)
and Europe to to be together. And here we had AI regulation, assistive technology. In New York I was on a panel and here I see opportunities. That we are as Parliament and EU, we are not that fast like an American company or another company.

That is our weak point, but that can be our strengths to control, to protect our citizens, to protect the people. It's about protecting human rights and not they want to take something away from that many people can benefit from it. and here it is an innovation.

The problem is the simplification. That is a bit the the narrative we or that is the narrative simplification. The liberals understand it like, okay, let's open doors and free market. I have no problem with simplification or or less biocracy. It's it's great, as long as my rights are protected as as a citizen. So it can be a a chance.

Neil Milliken (18:21)
.

Katrin Langensiepen (18:40)
The the danger is when comes I'm searching for a job. people know that I have a disability or I'm a woman with a disability. so to sum it up, it it's a chance, but we need of course clear

Neil Milliken (18:51)
you

Katrin Langensiepen (18:52)
rules and maybe to overthink some rules. are they blocking us? But the rule of law in general must be must be in line with

Debra Ruh (19:01)
Great. Antonio.

Antonio Vieira Santos (19:03)
I'm currently working on what you call a kind of a white book for public services in Portugal that the idea is to provide a kind of a roadmap out to better improve the way we manage technology in public services to making more human and to consider the needs of people. This cannot be just about technology without considering those who don't want to use technology, who don't have access to technology. And a question that came in

Neil Milliken (19:13)
.

Katrin Langensiepen (19:29)
Yeah.

Antonio Vieira Santos (19:30)
in the call that we have yesterday is it's really with education is that access to AI as the price as a cost and not everyone has access to it. Not everyone can pay for it.

Katrin Langensiepen (19:42)
Yeah.

Antonio Vieira Santos (19:43)
And the free services that are there are not really the most advanced. So you can use a free

Katrin Langensiepen (19:48)
Yeah.

Antonio Vieira Santos (19:48)
version of it. We have one European company in Europe, Mistral, that works in that space. So

We were talking about AI and accessibility. Okay, some people can afford it, but how those millions of people who could benefit from it, who have a disability, but cannot afford to access to it.

Katrin Langensiepen (20:08)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah. when companies I had a a chat with big big company from the States and they were like, our devices are so cheap and so affordable and we we talked about many disabled people don't have the money, nah na na na na. And then of course why they are so cheap, because they ignore labor rights.

So then you have the the result of only five t 50 euros or yeah because it's produced under social standards or not in line with social

Neil Milliken (20:42)
Mm-hmm.

Katrin Langensiepen (20:42)
standards. Do we like it? No. we hired or have a connection contract with sheltered workshops. It's a ch cheap opportunity.

For some companies they can avoid or hide behind social standards. People with disabilities are busy. how great. So here our own ableism kicks in. and that is in the end a very difficult actually not difficult amongst us, I would say a difficult question. but that is the consequence still in in a neoliberal market and world.

Neil Milliken (21:16)
Mm-hmm.

Katrin Langensiepen (21:18)
So something comes from something. And here as long as we are not seen as clients, I had a nice chat once with a huge, huge computer company. And they interviewed me and I said, Well, I wouldn't buy your devices, by the way. And they were like, I'm a client of the other company with the funny apple on it.

And they I can give you reason A B C D E why I will stick to the other team and you will not convince me. And I explained why. And they were, Yeah, because I have the money, so I have influence. So

Neil Milliken (21:56)
Valid, really, really valid points.

Katrin Langensiepen (21:58)
It was a very

r rude from me, but to make it clear what does it mean if

Neil Milliken (22:02)
Yeah.

Katrin Langensiepen (22:02)
your products are not accessible.

Debra Ruh (22:04)
Thank you.

Neil Milliken (22:05)
So, the procurement power is an area where we can

Debra Ruh (22:07)
Mm.

Katrin Langensiepen (22:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Milliken (22:10)
move the needle on disability inclusion. And

Katrin Langensiepen (22:12)
Exactly, exactly.

Neil Milliken (22:15)
there's revised EU procurement guidance coming out soon, which is good, yes.

Katrin Langensiepen (22:20)
Yeah.

Neil Milliken (22:21)
But you're right, there is this sort of push and pull because the quest for simplification has led to the omnibus.

changes to lots of regulations and some of that impacts some of the things that were also being used as levers for disability inclusion. For example, know, CSRD, the amount of things that you need to report back now in the ESRS are lower, right? And you can be more narrative focused. So, we go back from being sort of having really good

of empirical data to telling stories, which I think is a bit of a retrograde step. At the same time, and it's not like I was the biggest fan of ESRS because they were sometimes focusing on measuring the wrong things, I think that there is still a need to have a narrative to convince people that we have that economic value and that we, not only are we consumers, but when...

rather than being a cost center for society, we're part of a, I'm using business language now, we're part of a profit center because actually when you include people with disabilities, you're growing the economy. So everybody's

Katrin Langensiepen (23:29)
Yeah.

Neil Milliken (23:30)
desperate for growth and yet we're trying to cut an area that can be a driver of growth. And people don't understand that because of the sort of innate ableism. so sometimes you do need the sort of,

economic statistics and research behind it to be able to change the more cynical of minds.

Katrin Langensiepen (23:51)
Yeah, true.

Neil Milliken (23:52)
So we were pretty much at the end of our time today and I know that you've got things that you need to get to as well. So I need to thank our friends in the big American tech company, Amazon, for sponsoring us and keeping us on air. And thank you for contributing to AXSChat again and contributing to the conversation and keeping

Katrin Langensiepen (24:13)
Thank you.

Neil Milliken (24:14)
this relevant. Thank you.

Katrin Langensiepen (24:15)
Thanks for your work.

Debra Ruh (24:15)
Thank

And thank you for your servant leadership. You are such a blessing to our community. And you're so active and out there. I just, hope our community really supports what you're doing too. We need to get behind the leaders to make sure you can be even more successful. So thank you for being on today. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Neil Milliken (24:31)
Absolutely. Absolutely. That's how we do it. It's

Katrin Langensiepen (24:32)
We cooperate.

Antonio Vieira Santos (24:35)
you

Neil Milliken (24:36)
not a zero-sum game. It's a positive-sum game.

Katrin Langensiepen (24:38)
No, yeah.

Debra Ruh (24:39)
No.

Neil Milliken (24:40)
So, being positive, follow the podcast. Subscribe. Follow Katrin. Engage in the conversations. Thank you, everyone.

Debra Ruh (24:44)
please. And she's going to come

Antonio Vieira Santos (24:44)
you

Debra Ruh (24:48)
back. Please come back again.

Antonio Vieira Santos (24:50)
Thank you.

Katrin Langensiepen (24:51)
So greetings. Bye-bye.