How do you take your app from idea to reality? In this episode, Adam Webber talks about the steps to take to launch your first app.
Adam Webber
adam.callcast.co
https://www.facebook.com/adamwebber1
https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamwebber1/
https://www.instagram.com/callcastco/
Brian Meert
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmeert
Duke of Digital
https://www.dukeofdigital.com/
https://www.instagram.com/dukeofdigital/
AdvertiseMint
https://www.advertisemint.com
https://business.facebook.com/advertisemint/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/advertisemint/
https://www.instagram.com/advertisemint
How do you take your app from idea to reality? In this episode, Adam Webber talks about the steps to take to launch your first app.
Adam Webber
adam.callcast.co
https://www.facebook.com/adamwebber1
https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamwebber1/
https://www.instagram.com/callcastco/
Brian Meert
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianmeert
Duke of Digital
https://www.dukeofdigital.com/
https://www.instagram.com/dukeofdigital/
AdvertiseMint
https://www.advertisemint.com
https://business.facebook.com/advertisemint/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/advertisemint/
https://www.instagram.com/advertisemint
How do you take your app from an idea to reality? Raise your pinkies because today we're going to walk you through every step to launch your first app
Speaker 2:presented by advertisement. The Duke of digital will guide you through the rapidly changing landscape of digital marketing, social media, and how to grow your business online. To submit a question for the show, text(323) 821-2044 or visit Duke of digital.com if you need an expert to fix your ads, the friendly team at advertisement is ready to help visit advertisement. That's M I N t.com or call(844) 236-4686
Speaker 1:grow your business. Here's your host, Brian Mitt. All right, Adam, I'm excited because we've got you here today to talk about how to launch your first app. Thank you so much for joining us on the show.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love being here. I'm a big fan of you paid him 20 bucks. I say that. No, honestly, a quick backstory just to get going. I remember, uh, being in an office, you are in the same office. Yeah. And where was this? This was it. We work on the promenade in Santa Monica, Santa Monica, three blocks from the beach, three blocks from the beach, my amazing office in planet earth. But the most amazing thing also is you would be the first person into the office and the last person to leave. And we would always say you were the hardest working person and you would look over and you said to me once, you were like, one day I will, my office will be all these desks. Is my goal to take over.
Speaker 1:That's right. Do you remember[inaudible] say that it was in, so it was in like, uh, and we work at, you have kind of offices that are two spaces, two DAS, four desks, eight desk and they have their own door that's locked. And we were in like the big general area where there was probably like 40 desks and it was individual desk, a one at a time. And I was like, and I remember starting with one, uh, just myself and then one employee, two employees, three. And that's where I was growing, was inside of there. And I was like, yeah, you know, I, you know, three to four employees. And I was like, Oh, I'm going to take over the whole.
Speaker 3:And so now it's amazing to come. You've outgrown. We were. Yeah. And it's amazing to come here where you have a massive office full of desks. It's kind of like you have fulfilled.
Speaker 1:Yeah. When I said it too, it was, it was very much like dr evil. I'm like, I'll take over all the skin.
Speaker 3:I got a hit. So that's what I wanted to say off off the top. You know, it's like amazing to see somebody, I it, it's a Testament to goals, right. And to, you know, having a picture of where you wanted to take your company and saying it out loud and manifesting it. And honestly I, but beyond saying it, I watched you put in the hard work. Yeah. I watched you be the first person to show up and you made me come here at eight in the morning. So it's how we
Speaker 1:roll. Yeah, it's early morning. I, you know, it is funny. It's just one of those things that, you know, you've you a lot of times, I don't know, I just read a bunch of books and people are like, you want to, you want to be successful, you've got to get to work, like get there and start putting in the hours. And, and what's weird is the more I did it, the more doors open, the more clients we'd pick up, the more opportunities would happen. And you know, it wasn't necessarily that maybe I was the smartest or the brightest or had the most, you know, money in a bank account. But it was, I was like, I'm going to show up, roll up the sleeves and let's, let's get to work and figure it out. And I mean you say that cause you were 10 minutes right after me. So I mean you were there as well. Hustle in Hawaii. So he's done. All right. The other thing that I wanted to ask you about was a[inaudible]. We're going to talk about apps in a second here. And one of the things that, uh, just like an app and podcast share in common is the artwork. You need a little, a icon, cover artwork as your logo. The Duke of digital podcasting artwork. Yeah, I think needs a shout out. Where did that come? Who did your artwork like that is an amazing, which one did you see? Cause there's a couple of flow is one that is a costume that I wore. And there's other ones that look like South park at South park. Oh, okay. Awesome. All right. Are you like AB testing the different or work or what's going on? You're moving really quick. And so we're trying to create a bunch of different things, uh, all at once. And we just said, Hey, let's get stuff up and see what works and have some fine. But that was a, it's funny cause on, in that photo though, behind the scenes, uh, there is like a little military, like a couple of of badges. And so I went to an army Navy surplus store. I was like, Hey, I want to get some of those. So it looks like it. And the guy's like, okay, well here's the ones that we have. And he's like, this one means, you know, you fought in Vietnam and this one means you had a friend that died in world war II. And I was like, Oh no. Like, I was like, I can't use any of those. Like those are serious real metals. And I was like, do you have any that aren't as serious? And he's like, yeah, well this one means you did a trip to Antarctica. And I was like, yeah, I'll take that one and this one means, you know, like you showed up on your first day. And I was like, Oh, I'll take that one too. So I have all like the honorable mention ones, um, on my, uh, on my sash. And I was like, yeah, okay. That, that I don't think that'll offend anyone. That's brilliant. Yeah. You know what, I thought you had photo-shopped it. No. You know what, like a lot of times, you know, we'll get into this with, with, um, with apps and, and icons, but I'm also interested in podcasts as you know, my new adventure. Um, and so the, the cover artwork is a big topic that people talk about. You've gotta be able to get someone's attention real quick and have it stand out. It did come, you know, the idea for that came after looking through a lot of business podcasts and I, you know, we scroll through all those ones and like these all look boring. They really do look like, eh, man, man, man. And I was like, let's at least do something that's funny that makes people smile. Um, so that's all in house. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. Amazing job. We keep, keep the team busy. Okay, so let's do this. Adam. Uh, I want to make sure I do a proper introduction. Adam Webber, uh, the creator of call, the call cast app. Uh, you can check it out by going to[inaudible] dot co is that right? Okay, good. Um, you a, you are a partner at a hundred by a hundred launch pad. You're an avid surfer. You enjoy the outdoors. Did I miss anything? I bought a surfboard off you once. That's right. That's right. Two of them, actually two of them. I gave them a two for one deal. When I moved from Santa Monica, I was like, ah, I'm not going to go surfing much after this. Uh, I moved from Santa Monica, Hollywood and I was like, it's just a, it's a ways through traffic to get back out there. And I was like, it's most likely not gonna there's not gonna be too much surfing. So I'm glad I gave him a good home. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And, and, and to all your listeners, if anyone wants to try to surf, I love to meet new people and I love to go out surfing. Uh, I feel like there's so many business lessons that I've learned from surfing about, you know, embracing the process of beginning and, um, kind of the, the newness and the wonder of everything. I feel like you can discover those little elements of what something is made of at the beginning. Yeah. Cause you see all these things, but you're also getting crushed and you look like a fool and learning to be okay with that.
Speaker 1:Now, where do you start? Venice. Malibu,
Speaker 3:Venice, Malibu, Santa Monica. All up, just all within the strike zone area. Just depends on which way the waves are coming in and the swell comes in and uh, how much time the day permits. But it's my gym, eh, mentally, spiritually, and as a entrepreneur and someone like yourself where we're in front of computers all the time. Uh, I found it personally, I need something that is the farthest thing possible, like farthest thing away from all this technology. Yup. Um, and actually what's weird is while I'm out in the ocean, it clears my mind and I come back onto land with new ideas and new kinds of ways of thinking about some of the problems that I might've been struggling with back in the,
Speaker 1:it is so true. There's, I'm trying to think of the number of times I've gone out and sometimes in California, Hilo crowded, you know, when you're surfing there's only, you know, there's a lot of people that want to get into the water, but there's times I've gone out and I'll just paddle out beyond everyone and just sit there and it just, you're 100% right. Clears the mind. I'm like, just being in the water with, you know, with the waves coming in. Just how, I'm just like, man, I'm not on the land where all the craziness is happening. I'm out in the ocean at one with it. It's just, it's fantastic.
Speaker 3:So, so a special offer to all your, uh, listeners, if anyone wants to surf a Duke of digital surfboard, just feel free to message me and we'll meet up. How do they find you?
Speaker 1:Where, where do they find you? Instagram. Facebook.
Speaker 3:Adam at Comcast dot. Co. Shoot me an email saying, Hey, I'd love to surf. I'm in the area. Let's go ride a Duka digital board. I think the board was blue too. Yeah. Two of them. Yeah. It was like a, his and hers. I think that's right.
Speaker 1:I had a that's right. I too, I could take friends out when they came to visit. Um, okay, well let's do this. Let's, uh, let's start to talk about how to build and launch a mobile app. And so this conversation comes from a lot of networking events or places that I've been, you'll be in business or online business a lot of times, family reunions or places like that. Someone be like, Oh, I've got the greatest idea for an app. And I'm like, Oh yeah, what do they have? And like, well I can't tell you cause it's so good it's going to take over, you know, Facebook or Instagram or YouTube. And I'd be like, well okay, yeah, great. That's fantastic. But they're like, but I don't know how to start or I don't know what to do. Brian, will you tell me what to do? And I'll be like, well what is the idea? And like I can't tell you. And then we go around a circle couple times, eventually they'll tell me the idea and I'm like, Oh yeah, you would do these things and, and go from there. But you know, you are much more versed in terms of the creation process behind mobile apps. So I mean I, I was doing some numbers, you know, right before the show started, there's over 1 billion iPhones in the world. And over 2.5 billion Android devices in the world, which means you have the ability to create an app that can essentially reach almost half the planet instantly. And so there's so much power there in terms of a market. Um, I know there's a lot of competition, but I think what I wanted to do was to walk through some questions, um, that I think I've heard a lot of people ask and to get your feedback on those questions. So I mean, to give a little background, um, tell us about your background with creating apps and you know, where the, let's start with that. What's your background for creating apps?
Speaker 3:Wow. So I started, uh, 16 plus more years ago creating my first app. Um, I've always, um, been really drawn to technology, uh, in a certain way. I grew up and I still am extremely dyslexic. So learning for me was always so difficult. And, uh, there wasn't kind of like when I was in high school, we weren't using really computers the way we are today. Um, and so then later as I got my hands on a computer for the first time and I was able to start typing into it and quickly fix my spelling or look up a word I didn't know or, you know, I just found this like it gave me a whole new world of possibilities, confidence, you know, faith in myself though I'd always, if I had to hand write something to somebody growing up, I'd be so embarrassed and so ashamed of my spelling. Yeah. You know? And so, um, this kind of like, I feel like the computer kind of was this whole like shining light of like new possibility. Wow. You can write, you can communicate with all these people now and not have to be embarrassed by your writing anymore. And also I didn't, I couldn't even like stand the look of my cursive or anything like that. I wonder even kids write cursive anymore.
Speaker 1:I dunno. I was always never as good as like teacher would do it. And then I would try and be like, Oh yeah, I'm a, I agree with you. Like, I was always like, man, it's not the way it should be, but that's as good as I can do. So, Hey, that's all I got.
Speaker 3:So, so like for me it's just like the computers were amazing. And then as far as the smartphone came out, um, I was just in awe of all the different features packed into this little phone. It had a camera, it has, you know, a, it knows our location on maps. Uh, so you can, the camera, you can do photos and videos and location, you can start pinpointing those things and it has push notifications. So you can always start like communicating with people without them having to think to come find you and it knows your speed and all, all kinds of, um, ways you can interact with this really powerful device. Um, so I just loved the idea of all these inputs and outputs that we could start to create a relationship with people and then, uh, attach that location or a pack. So basically all of these things that you could, uh, packed into a phone, you could interact with people wherever they are in the world. And stuff like that. So,
Speaker 1:and, and walk me through where the idea for call casts because I mean, you know, a lot of times the idea for an app comes from, wouldn't it be great if, you know, someone has an idea and you know, maybe there isn't an app that exists for that yet. And a lot of times that can be the foundation of a, a fantastic app. Someone somewhere has that same need. They look, they see it exists and you know, either they, they pick it up or buy it. Um, and that can be a fantastic business. I mean, you've a huge marketplace. Walk us through, how did you come to the idea behind Comcast and can you explain a little about what it is and what it does?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's a two part thing. One, um, I was working at that time on, um, another company, uh, with a group of founders that I just was not that passionate about. Uh, we had developed a pretty large client base, but I was really like, I felt my kind of soul sinking in what we were doing. Um, in terms of, I just was not enjoying the development process behind that. It seemed like a grind every single day. Um, and, uh, I think for myself, I love working on new ideas. Um, my, my mind is always firing on like, you know, what's next, what's next? And I love the early stage and we can get into this later about, you know, creating an app because I feel like there's different stages and as you know of creating a business, there's different stages, right? There's like as you're getting off the ground and you know, getting, you know, the idea of getting the idea built and then launching, getting customers and then as you start to scale and grow employees and all the other kinds of things that come along with growing a business, so there might be different portions of that that you're better suited for and you enjoy more. Um, so for me, I was able to identify that I really like working on the early stages of ideas. Okay. Validating those ideas and then bringing them to life. Um, and later down the line, like as the business starts to grow. And some of the problems start to get, you know, more backend business-related problems. You know, I started to enjoy that a lot less. Um, so,
Speaker 1:and for call cast because when I saw we, I hadn't seen you in a little bit and I see you're like, Hey, this is what I'm up to. And I was like, I can't repeat the word that I said, but I was like, Oh man, because the process of podcasting is difficult. It's, you know, I mean I was like, we gotta get, you know, microphones and cameras and there needs to be a sound mixer and everything kept being all of these soundproof walls. And I was like, it should be as simple as just talking with someone else. And I was like, you created the app that solves that problem. And I was like, ah, I wish I had known about this because w we were talking before the show started, I had the idea for the Duke of digital podcast like four years ago and I went and bought a microphone and got ready to go. And it was just, you know, we're starting the business. There was a lot of things I was juggling and I was like, I can't do everything I want right now. I've got to put something on hold while I grow. And the podcast went on hold and it was part of the issue was to be able to easily communicate with other people and I could have Skyped them and done it. And I just, I, I put it off and I was like, man, I wish I would have known about the app because you solve all those problems.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think podcasting, um, splits into different camps, um, so is there's the camp of people who are beginners. They just want to get going. Uh, they just want to start without having to have a large investment in equipment and time. Uh, you know, the time it takes, like you're running a real production here with, you know, lights, cameras, Mike's mixing boards, sound proof. You put a lot of energy and time into this. I just wanted to use your app. And the other end of the spectrum is someone who's just starting out. Um, you know, it doesn't need to be that complicated. Um, and the other thing that I think is the most interesting thing about podcasting is less of, um, the actual medium of the podcast itself and more about the human element of getting a chance to have a real conversation with somebody else, a deeper conversation, getting to know that person in, you know, 20 minutes, 30, 30 minutes, and you're talking about real shit real, you know, you're getting to know each other and it can be a really amazing opportunity. And even like, um, you know, like it's a great door opener. So if you're at an event or you're, you know, you're meeting somebody and you're shy or you don't really have that much to talk about, like at that kind of setting, being able to say to someone, you know what, I have a podcast and I'd love to be able to interview to you, um, to be able to get that opportunity to, to talk on that level.
Speaker 1:What I would say too is in regards, cause I'm, I'm fairly new to the podcast world. I mean, I listen to podcasts all the time. Um, and what's fascinating is I think most people have something in their life and they don't realize it, but something in their life that is fascinating to other people. And this is something that I've always like, I could talk to a dentist and be like, tell me stories. Like I want to know what happens with[inaudible]. And they will be able to start come alive when you understand their world about things that they're doing and problems and you're like, man, this is so fascinating. And you could walk across to a construction guy that works in construction and be like, tell me what happens. You know, what do you do on a daily basis? And when you dig a little bit, a lot of times you will find some of the most amazing stories in everyone in life, I think has incredible stories. And what happens is, I think with podcasts, people like to look for things that they're familiar with, meaning like, so, you know, if I'm a programmer I'm like, I want to hear what other programmers they're talking about. So I get ideas and inspiration and I think anyone has the ability to be able to start podcasting. What's awesome is you created the tool to make it easy, which is to be able to have a conversation with another person about a topic we were discussing, you know, news or events or pros and cons or your advice on one way or the other. And it could be any topic on planet earth. And there most likely is other people out there that would want to listen and hear what you would have to say.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think w w w one of the things you're saying here is just have curiosity and when you have curiosity, you'll unlock the world. Yeah. Um, and you can connect with anybody if you're just curious and you ask and, you know, follow your curiosity. It's amazing. And it leads to amazing places. Okay. So let's do this. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, I have an idea for an app. Uh, I come to you and say, all right. And I would say maybe people, we'd break them into two camps. There's beginners, someone that's never done anything with a mobile app. And there's maybe advance people, people that are like, no, I'm a business owner. I've got other things I've got, things are moving and shaking in my world. Um, I'm successful, but I want to be able to create an app component. So keep that in mind as we kind of run through these questions. Um, what is next? I mean, do you research your competitors like for the app? Is that something that you spend time doing? Is that important?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's a great place to start. If you have an idea, the first thing you should do is, you know, Google's such a powerful tool, punch in, you know, a quick search for who else is doing this idea. Um, and if you find, you know, what they say is if you find nobody doing it, that could be a red flag. If you find too many people doing it, that could be a red flag. So, you know, on each side of the spectrum, it's, it's, you know, if nobody's doing it, why is that? Uh, sometimes you hear people pitching ideas and they're like, I have the best idea for an app. Nobody's doing it. And some, you know, you'll, you'll hear famous investors talk about, well maybe that's a bad thing. Maybe the market doesn't want it. Like it's hard to find an idea that's truly like unique and never been thought of anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah. A lot of them are the next version of it or something that's been added to an improvement.
Speaker 3:And also, um, there is a, there is a kind of first mover disadvantage where if you're too early to a market, your second follower can study what you're doing well and then say, you know what, they did this, this and this. But they're, they, you know, they're, they're making all the mistakes for you and so you can learn and do it better. And
Speaker 1:Google wasn't the first search engine, Facebook wasn't the first social network, all of the, a lot of the big ones.
Speaker 3:There's lesson after lesson after lesson of that same thing where, you know, the first person kind of also, the other thing is, and you'll know this in terms of doing ad spends and stuff like that, I'm the first person into a market you have to pay for education. So you're paying to educate the market about a product and then selling your product. So like it's like, Oh, we got to teach them about what this does and why they need it in their life. Whereas once somebody has already come in and educated the market, then you can just come in with something better and you don't have to actually educate them.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think I remember hearing a story, there was a guy that created a Bible app and he was like, I just went and looked at every other app and I saw what they were doing wrong or what they weren't doing. Um, and he was like, I ended up saying this is what I think the market needs are. These are how I would improve it. And it ended up becoming one of the top one to two Bible apps. And he was saying he was making these ridiculous amounts of of money, but he was like, I feel guilty because I'm an atheist. And he was like, but I was a programmer and I just saw a problem was trying to figure it out. I was like, Oh, I could let me tinker with this problem. And thus far, and he was, yeah, it was just a like, to hear that as a story. I was like, man, that's crazy. But he was like, I created what I thought the market would want and it turns out I was right in an area where there was a huge, huge industry. Okay. So walk me through this. Um, you know, one of the elements that I hear a lot with mobile app developers is the time and resources to do you develop for iOS. Do you develop for Android? Do you develop for both? You know, what's your advice on when someone's starting out? What should they be aware of in regards to that?
Speaker 3:Every different people that you talk to, different developers, different agencies have their own view on, you know, how they, their process and what they would recommend. Yup. Uh, for me, I'm very, um, traditional in terms of I believe everything should be native code. Okay. Um, I feel like, uh, you get the best results and I like to try and do things right the first time. Um, I do it as opposed to writing something in a hybrid kind of language and then deploying it to both Android and Apple at the same time. I believe personally that the, I see a better product outcome when you write in Apple's native language, first and foremost, you write in Swift. Um, and just tackle the Apple ecosystem first. Okay. Get it right. Uh, get some traction, uh, learn. So anytime you're launching an app, you'll go through some iterations and you'll have your idea. Yup. And you'll mock that up and then you will, um, test it with some people and you'll see that, Whoa, I was, they, they're all confused. Let me try it again. Okay. Let me test it again. Oh, they're still confused. Let me refine it. And you go through iteration and duration. And then finally when you push it out, then you're fixing some bugs, um, and you start fixing all the bugs and then you can push it out. When you get a stable build and you see people are using it, great. Now you have a blueprint, you have a back end API and then you can go to the Android market from there. Uh, if some of the mistakes I see is people trying to develop, Oh I need the Android and Apple at the same time. And uh, and if they're trying to do it in the native, you know, in Swift and they're building Android and then if they have a mistake on Apple, then they have to go over and fix it on Android. And so you're, you're, you're just paying twice the cost to, to, to fix these mistakes. There's just going to be so many mistakes along the way. Yeah. Get the mistakes out of the way first just on the Apple ecosystem.
Speaker 1:You know, it's interesting you say that cause you say mistaken costs, which is now in basically your costs are doubled. But the other element that comes into place is the mistake of time, which is, you know, I've seen that a lot in the app world. Like when you start going, a lot of times the clock is ticking and there's a lot of other developers out there watching what's coming out. And if they see something that looks good, that like, Hey, how do we create our version of that? So, I mean, I would say the same thing that only, you know, money, but also the time it takes to, you know, you want to get it right and it is something that you, it's an industry where you have to move quickly, um, with your ideas and, and everything's got to move at a very, very rapid pace.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So it's important to weigh those out, you know, moving fast but also moving smart. Um, and so, you know, I feel like if you, it's, you're, you're doing, if you're developing on two ecosystems, you're spending twice the time and everything twice the time and building it twice the time and finding testers than bugs. You got to find bugs on both what you're just splitting your own focus and your own resources in too many different places. Yeah. Um, trust me when I say it's hard enough to get it right, just in one of those places, like on iOS, there's all these different screen sizes and you know, um, different people having different versions of the iOS loaded on their phone. There's just so many little things that is just like, you're, you're creating more problems for yourself. Yeah.
Speaker 1:What, um, you know, for people that aren't a developer themselves, so they have an idea that they want to create and they're going to need the help from a developer. I mean, one of the things that I've always been confused is the languages. And I know there's a lot that you can write mobile apps and or that people will talk about what are, and they change so rapidly. I feel like I'll be, like, everyone will say this is a good one. And then, you know, two months later they're like, Oh yeah, that's old. There's an even better one. You know, what, um, what are the programming languages that you kind of recommend that people should be creating apps in?
Speaker 3:So, um, I can tell you what I built call cast in. Um, so we did that in Swift. Okay. Uh, with a backend of Google Firebase. Okay. Um, which has been amazing, like super fast to get up a back end, um, with a node JS, um, infrastructure and it's just been so fast, uh, to, to, to work and you don't need this huge dev ops team on the back end. Um, so what Google is doing there with Firebase I find quite amazing.
Speaker 1:Okay. And can you speak a little bit, what is Firebase and how does it work?
Speaker 3:Um, in quick, quick explanation? Yeah. So I mean, Google Firebase just allows you to get set up with kind of like a, a backend system for your app. So kind of like where all your data will go. Okay. Get stored, you know, be able to, to have your logins if you want to be able to quickly say, let's do, even Apple now has their own login. So if you want to say, let's just quickly integrate, you know, all these ways for people to log in, it could even log in with a phone number and all that. They just make all these things that you can click into, into your app really quick. And now they're even getting into things where you could do some like, um, machine machine learning. Uh, so on mine, um, I have a where people can record a podcast and then you can get a transcription, um, so you can transcribe your podcast that you just recorded. Uh, and I did that just by hooking into, uh, w what Google offers on their cloud services. That's awesome. So yeah, it's kind of like we live in amazing time right now where, uh, I feel like a lot of these, uh, tools and uh, in technology kind of like really powerful technology would only have been like available to like the really big clients. And you'd have to have a ton of money in this giant back team backing you up. And, and now you be just a really small individual and be like, wow, I want to do some like really like some artificial intelligent stuff. And you know, like, uh, um, be able to do image processing and, and, or transcription, all that. And you just have it at your fingertips and be able to get it integrated into your app and like kind of no time, uh, is it, it just makes the little person be able to compete on such a bigger stage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. It is fascinating at the rapid pace at which tools are available. Um, which I mean, we work a lot in the advertising industry and just, you know, 20 years ago you had to go to a TV station and be like, Hey, I'd like to run ads. And someone would be like, well, we're going to charge you whatever we want and you have no say about it. And he just, he didn't have a lot of say in that. Or you had to have a retail business, which meant you need needed inventory and a location and all those things came into play. And all so much of that has been rewritten with, you know, in the last a couple of years and just continues to change at a rapid pace, which for me is exciting because the minute a new tool comes out, it's now anyone's game. You know, anyone, if they're first on a better system can be leading the charge and they're that much further than a competitor that may be big and you know, much bigger than them, but they now have the advantage because they, they made the right jump at the right time. Um, walk me through this. You know, what's the common question I would hear is at what time, you know, what's your advice on when should someone learn to code themselves? When should they hire a developer? When should they hire a development agency or maybe an entire team so it can be done quicker or when should they use like try to figure out just like a template it app that you know, a lot. There's some systems allow you to kind of put together a basic app that might be able to display information or put a couple of, you know, drag and drop features, um, together. What's kind of your, what's your thought on that? On when would, if you were giving advice for other people, what would you say? When should they make those, those moves or changes on who to have their help with their app being built?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's really interesting. A multiple part question there. Um, I would say, uh, when should someone learn to code? I think it's people need to, you know, first know your strengths, what your, what you enjoy doing, how you enjoy spending your time. I think, um, I think trying to go alone 100% at anything is very difficult. I think if you can partner up with somebody, uh, and make sure you get the right partnerships early on, have those difficult conversations early on. I think, uh, there's, uh, all these great resources like I think in, in Quora even, um, there's some things if you go like conversations to have with somebody before you become co-founders together I think is a really important cause. I think the number one thing that splits up startups is co cofounder fighting or disagreeing. So it's kind of like a, a relationship where if you ha if you are, I highly recommend having these conversations with whoever you choose to partner up with on an idea. Um, and just ask the what if questions, right? Like, uh, you know, what if we start building this and we don't get any users, how long should we keep working on it? What if we start building this and we get an offer right away for a hundred grand? Would we sell it or would we keep working on it? Or if we get an offer for a million, what's our point? How long do we want to work on this for? How much time can we put it? Just all those really kind of difficult questions that might be a little awkward at first. If you have those conversations and you get to know your cofounder better at the beginning like that, and you can be more aligned or just understand how they would react and some of these situations. And not that those things can't change, but it gives you just a, uh, at least a starting point to understand each other for sure. So I would say, um, you know, should people learn to code? Yes. But if it's not your thing and you're not enjoying it, you know, find a cofounder who can code and make sure you can have those conversations and just know about each other that way. Study something else, like, you know, co customer acquisition or design or whatever. But I do think if you have a little team of people like as you know, in, in startups and businesses, it can be a roller coaster. You know, some days you're feeling awesome and, and wow, look at it's coming together and Oh no, that code just is not working right now. And now you're hitting the bottom. And just to have somebody there that you can pull up when they're down, you can pull them up when you're down, they pull you up. Um, and, and just kind of share the ups and downs together and uh, you know, cause it can be lonely. Uh, just, you know, trying to build something, it can be scary trying to build something and, and to have somebody there to kinda like a charge into battle with you is, is a, uh, pretty good
Speaker 1:for sure. Yeah. No, it is, it is a journey. And there are times that, you know, just you think, Oh, this is just around the corner. Uh, and you go around the corner and you're like, I'm not there yet. Or you realize, Oh, we have to fix one more thing. And one more thing. And one more thing.
Speaker 3:One thing I would recommend also, which is like a fun, um, uh, kind of simulated experience. I think if you are choosing a cofounder kind of thing, go do a hackathon together or something like that. It's a lot of fun to um, spend a weekend with somebody in a really intense, you know, you're, you're forced with deadlines that like we got to get it done in two hours and you're, you're working with each other in this kind of hackathon and then, wow, we, we had a great time under those circumstances on the weekend, let's now keep working together or whatever. And you can kind of get to see personality and you have to present at the end and stuff like that. So I think in a really condensed small amount of time, I would say if, if you, um, you know, are thinking about building something and you're finding somebody looking for someone to build your idea with or whatever, go on to read it, find somebody near you or whatever. Or go onto meetup.com and find a find and then find the a hackathon that you guys can go do together, guys or gals. And um, I, I think that's a fun way. And I used to do that a bar.
Speaker 1:Now if someone doesn't know to code, can they still go to a hackathon and work and be like, I can help with ideas, I can help with 100% of a testing. Or
Speaker 3:there's even some hackathons that, that are, are geared towards people who, uh, don't code and they have different kind of, uh, like there's some like, uh, I can't remember what they're called. It's something like idea jams and it's, it's like a hackathon, but without the coding. And it's more like just doing maybe more like the ideas today and stuff like that. All of this is like if you have the time and the energy and whatnot, um, you can learn just so much by, by going through these processes.
Speaker 1:I would say for any listeners, if you haven't done this sign up for one, go, go check it out like there. And usually how long, I mean they have different lanes
Speaker 3:definitely it can be one day or it could be a weekend kind of thing. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1:Oh well let's do this. How much money should someone expect when they're building an app? I know this is a question that kind of ranges a lot because it, you know, it's one, they never really stopped. Like you build an app and then you want more and more and more. And most apps, you know, continually grow and, and, and require, you know, maintenance or building. But you know, to get from, I have an idea to, it's uploaded in the app store and it's working and doing what it should be doing. Any estimates or ballparks on what you see kind of[inaudible]
Speaker 3:is that somebody building it themselves or is that somebody going to an agency or is that somebody, where is it somebody who found, so if you're building yourselves, you know, you just have to buy again, my process is start with Apple. Okay. That's what I would recommend. Right? So it costs you$99 for a year for a developer license. Um, and then other than that, it's really your time, food, energy. And you know, I'd say, you know, by, uh, uh, I, I D I am a big believer in design also. I think you, you need a design communicates and you have to be able to simplify your idea. And I think that's achieved through design. So I would say, you know, get one of the design programs or look up some design thinking courses and whatnot.
Speaker 1:Now if someone's, if there's already a successful business and maybe they don't have an app component or they haven't gotten it to where they want and they're like, we want to hit the gas and we want to go, what would be, you know, kind of estimates or ranges on that of we want to get an app up and running. And I know that's a, it's a rough, it's a rough, there's so many different variables of like
Speaker 3:where somebody's idea could be. Right. So, so for me though, like I personally don't work on an app unless it's like at least 40, 45,000 all the way up to$120,000. Okay. So like, and that's a large range, right? So, but then in between that, like what is somebody's app doing? Is it, is it more basic and it's just more like, you know, photos like an Instagram and it's very basic and kind of simple and that kind of way? Or are they looking for like, um, the ability to, to snap photos and then also do like image recognition and process, you know, like understanding the writing on signs and, and kind of all those kinds of like machine learning elements and stuff like that or augmented reality, who knows what it can get very, you know, multiple layers of complexities. Got it. So, I mean, if someone were to approach you and be like, I need help building an app, would you just want to be like, give me the list of what you want it to do? Like is that what you would tell them? Like write out, I enjoy doing, um, ideation sessions first foremost. Um, and Bri. Yeah. Breaking their app down into, you know, what are all the features and components, what is the idea, what's the value that you bring? Who is your customer, um, you know, why do they need it? Uh, let's go talk to some of your customers first. And would they pay for it? Yeah. Um, how will it make money? Is a big question. Okay. Um, I've definitely made that mistake many times where, um, I, I've built many apps that didn't have a clear revenue path from the beginning. Uh, and unless you have a way to really market your app, those apps only work out then if it's a game of numbers and if you can't attract a huge audience of downloads and stuff like that, you're not gonna make any money. So this one, let's jump to that real quick. I mean, what are your thoughts on the best ways to make money with apps? I mean, you've got a paid app where you charge to be able to use the app. Um, yeah. Anywhere from 99 cents to, you know, whatever you want to charge, uh, you have in app purchases or you can have like a service where there's a monthly billing, you know, in, in your opinion, which apps have you seen or, or you could just do free and hope that at some point it gets acquired. Like Instagram, you know, by Facebook. What, what have you seen as kind of the ones that stand out are for people that are starting, what model should they follow? Uh, a lot of it will depend on what their business is and what their app is trying to achieve. But what I always look for personally is, is there a freemium model? So like can you offer a free version then with some of those, uh, in, uh, purchases or subscriptions built into it. Um, that's the model, at least my brain is most attracted to in terms of like, you know, bring something in, offer value, and then offer some extended features that somebody be willing to pay for and count how many people can you convert into those?
Speaker 1:It's so funny how many apps I think are on my phone and I'm like, Oh, they got me with the freemium wine. Uh, but sure enough, you start to use it and you realize this is valuable for me, or I like this and I either need more features or I want to remove the ads so that I can just, you know, I'm not interrupted. But it is valuable for me to use, uh, this app. Um, how long do you think it should take to create an app like the PR, what's, what's kind of a time range from getting started and working on it, um, before you're able to launch it in the app store?
Speaker 3:So, uh, the goal is to launch as soon as possible. Okay. Um, and, and that might not even be launched in the app store, but at least get something, um, on test flight, uh, where you can launch beta tests with your users and then using it. Um, I've discovered some really cool ways of, uh, testing for myself that I've, that I've found extremely beneficial. I don't know if you use that app called next door. Have you ever seen next door? It's really to say yes. And is it, it's a really cool app just to like, it's like hyper neighborhood. We don't do little communities and they get everyone together. I think there's another one called neighborhood. Right. Is there another one? I don't know, but I think there's one next door. Right. So, so, um, yeah, when, when I have apps that I want to test, I'll just go into next door to my neighbors and it's amazing. I'll throw out like, Hey everyone, I'm working on an app. I love to get some testers. Uh, I'll buy anyone coffee, let's meet at a coffee shop and, and every round of AB testing I'll have, you know, 10 people lined up. I feel like you don't need more than 10 people per build that you're testing and you're just looking over their shoulders and you get the full range from someone who's like super plugged in and has downloaded all the apps to all the way the other end of the spectrum where it's like someone like your dad basically, you know, like your, you know, your older neighbor or whatever, who's doesn't really, I don't know how to use my iPhone. And you're like, it doesn't matter. Like that's what it's the perfect person to look over their shoulder. Cause if you can make it that simple where even that person who's like kind of like intimidated to use their phone even can figure out how to tie, how to intuitively use your app, then you know, you're, you know, you've really reduced it down to its simplest form and you're onto something. Yeah. Um, so for me, I, I would say it's like, um, you know, go into, uh, the ideation stage anywhere from like two weeks of testing things, three weeks then into like a design stage where you can use programs like envision to, uh, put the designs up to the send around and watch how people click around and use it to then starting to code, I would say, you know, three months worth of work broken into sprints where each month you're delivering something that is tangible. Yup. And then after three months you should be in, um, TestFlight and pinging the next door app saying, Hey, neighbors, everybody, I'd love to. And I really find it cool to meet with people in person and just look over their shoulder and try. And it's really hard when you've built something or you're, it's your app and you're watching someone use it. You want to be like, no, click right here. Click right here. And just to shut up and just say, you know what, here's your tasks. Can you figure out how to upload a podcast? Can you figure out how to record a pod, right? Like, Hey, just give them like a few small tasks to do and then sit back and then bite your lip and see if they can figure it out. And you'll learn just so much just through that process. So I would say, you know, three months of development, get it into their hands and then you're probably going to have to go back and do a couple of revisions and then boom, you're into the app store. And then the next is, you know, you're gonna it's growth. Growth is a big
Speaker 1:yeah, I've worked with, with on a couple of projects and the user testing for me is always the most exciting cause I know generally I'm not a developer, but the developers I work with, they're like, ah, this means a long list of things that I've got to go and change. But for me, I'm like show, like when you're asking someone, I want you to use it. I'm not going to say anything. I want you to do these tasks. Every one of those are clues that literally opened the door to massive amounts of money. Like if you get, the sooner you can get over those little obstacles that people maybe aren't able to get through, it's, it's going to be that much further ahead. And so I'm always like, how do I run to figure those out? Cause the sooner you can wipe away those, those obstacles or roadblocks or something that a person can't get past,
Speaker 3:you know what, it's interesting to listen to your customer too, right? So I have in the call cast app, I have a different ways you can record. One of the ways is video. Um, so you could make these video podcasts with people. Um, but I've locked the video thing down just to very like small exclusive, like I'm holding it back. And the, I think the thinking was if you click the video right now, basically what I was trying to do is say, Hey, if you share this app with, you know, three people when I, you know, I will unlock it to you at a certain point. But like in my thinking was could I use it as a way, as a growth mechanism, right? Yup. And I had someone testing it, click on the video the other day and then they got that messenger like, well, if this video was working, I'd pay for this app right now. And I was like, wait a minute, what's more important for me right now? Should I be holding this back just to get them to share it with three people? Or if they're already willing to pay for it right now, maybe a, that should be a higher prioritized, you know, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. And that just comes from listening to what people are saying out loud in regards to the app or the process. It's fantastic. All right, a couple of last questions. Um, approval process with app stores. Are there any things that people should know going through that? Cause I've heard horror stories of, of going through that process and seeing the people as they're going through and they just generally don't look happy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, I got caught up in that. Um, it's really strange and hard. So Apple, uh, it's, it's a double edged sword, right? On one hand, uh, it gives you, you know, like you as a user or a customer of the iPhone peace of mind that you're not gonna get. Um, you know, there's nothing malicious built into these apps. Right? So Apple has like a human look over, I'm sure they have a lot of automated stuff too, but a human has to approve every single app, which is, I don't know how they do that. That's kind of crazy. But I have been, every app that I've ever submitted has always been rejected. First round. Um, call cast was extremely difficult to get through the app store. I've got, I got rejected, I had to rebuild stuff. I got, I learned a lot of brutal lessons on that one. Um, because the apps that are, uh, asking for money, uh, and stuff like that, Apple is going to make sure, uh, that if they can make sure that Apple takes their cut, they think they take 30%, which is a hefty fee. Uh, they're gonna make sure that like, if, you know, like I had built it in a way that kind of circumvented Apple from taking their cut. Uh, and I think Spotify went through this recently has been having a long, if you look at like Apple versus Spotify, there's like lawsuits of, um, them feeling like apples, um, being a little too strict in terms of how they're doing it. But yeah, I, I had to rebuild a whole kind of, um, uh, backend system of power who was doing the checkout, um, because I was trying to circumvent Apple. And if there, I think the rule there that I should've learned was like, don't try and get crafty with that. Like it costs me more in the long run in terms of just time and stress and having to go back and redo things as opposed to just do it simple and right the first time in terms of following God, Apple's guidelines read their guidelines to start out with, you know, if you are serious about building an app, just you know, you can go in there and download Apple guidelines and read it through because it's a lot more costly to violate their guidelines. They will flag you and then you have to go back in and fix it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. It is good to pay homage to the King as a dude. Again, it's a lesson I learned as a wee little lad. Um, all right, last question. You know, how critical are app ratings to us? I mean we were talking about this before. Uh, you know, the, the, the image of the app as well as, you know, you only have a couple of images or videos that you can use a description as well as the ratings. How critical are those in a crowded app store?
Speaker 3:I think that's definitely what's gonna. I, I think Apple has their algorithms to check like a ratings. Obviously I think they know how to the fake ratings from authentic real ratings, but if you can get authentic real ratings, um, I think it's just kind of like all the different, uh, stores out there, whether it's the Amazon store, the app store, the, you know, wherever it is that we had these rating systems, um, for human kind of curated things that they are, they're liking the best, you know, like, which posts on Facebook are getting the most engagements and stuff like that. Those, those are the things that rise to the top, uh, which goes back to building a product that your, you know, your customers love and then connecting with them through the app. Um, and knowing the right time to ask them for those reviews. You know, like, don't do it so early that they haven't, you know, you're annoying them and they're like, dismiss, don't ever show me this again. Let them use your app for a little while. Get that, um, see that there. See that they're uh, getting benefit from it and then kind of expressed to them, you know, like, uh, your rating really helps us stay in business. So if you liked this service, you know, getting that rating is, is, is really big.
Speaker 1:I love it. Fantastic advice. We'll add them. I wanted to thank you so much for being here. Um, anyone that wants to go surfing, hit them up. Uh, anyone that wants to create your own podcast, go to[inaudible] dot co download that app. Uh, and if it's good and you love it, leave a five star review. Yeah, there we go. Thank you guys so much for joining us. We'll catch you on the next episode.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to the Duke of digital podcast with Brian Mitt, one to network with other business owners. Join our exclusive group at facebook.com/groups/duke of digital fancy the Duke. Leave a five star review on your favorite podcast app, and you could be mentioned on the show. The Duke of digital was produced by advertisement and recorded in Hollywood, California. All rights reserved.