Season 4 Episode 4: The Word on Coaching - Mindset

In this episode, we have an engaging conversation with Michelle Braden of MSB Coach about mindset. Michelle is a certified coach with PCC credentials from the International Coaching Federation and holds a PhD in Leadership/Management. She has leadership experience in the corporate arena including healthcare and executive recruitment, small business, nonprofits and education (in both private and public sectors).

We explore several concepts about our mindset - the many facets of our mindset, strategies for managing our mindsets, and how we can support others in being in the right mindset for the right situation.

Show Notes:

Check out Michelle's books:
Stand Out, Dare to Make a Difference, and Bottom Line.
 
Books Recommended by Michelle:

• The Quiet Leader
• Change Your Questions Change Your Life
• Coaching Questions: A Coach's Guide to Powerful Asking Skills 

 MSB Coach website:
Home (msbcoach.com)

Transcript

JoAnn 0:06

Hello everyone. This is JoAnn with coaches three. I'm here today with Debbie and Kevin. Hello, we're back again, folks. So our podcasts are for leaders. And whether you are a former leader or you lead informally, we're here to, support you and hopefully give you a few tips along the way. We, along with our guests want to help you grow, want to answer some questions for you, but most importantly, we want to share our passion with. So with that, we're going to jump in here and talk about our guests today. And I'm really personally excited about our guest today. I've known Michelle for over 10 years and our connection is our coaching. She came to a class that I was facilitating about coaching and we met after the class. The rest was history. I'll talk a little bit more after Michelle introduces herself, but Michelle, you say hello, and just give us a brief introduction.

Michelle 1:17

Absolutely. Thank you, JoAnn. It's good to be here with you and Kevin and Debbie on this podcast. So as you've already said, my name is Michelle Brayden. I am the president and founder of MSP coach MSB. Coach stands for managing successful balance in business. That is something that I personally am very committed to and something that we. Seriously with the work that we do in our coaching because we're holistic. So even though we are executive coaches and work in the leadership realm, we realized that every single part of who we are shows up in life. So we're a boutique leadership from an international firm that is located here in central Virginia. And I am just honored and thrilled to be with you all today.

JoAnn 2:03

Oh, we're definitely excited about this. Michelle, what we do each time we talk about, we talk about one word. So several weeks ago, when we were trying to decide what's the next coaching word we wanted to talk about? We put forth the word mindset. And you were the first person I thought of, because not only have I heard you talk about it, I've also seen you personally work on your own mindset and try to help others with theirs. And I know it's something that first of all, is that you know, a lot about, but you're passionate about this whole thing called mindset. So to help our leaders and our audience understand what we're talking about. When we say mindset, Would you give us a definition of what that means to you?

Michelle 2:52

Yeah, absolutely. So I think in its simplest form, a mindset is just our frame of mind. And I think that there are people who don't. Pay attention to what their frame of mind is. And then ultimately that impacts how they show up and they often wonder, well, why didn't I show up the way I wanted to? And it's because they aren't, self-managing that frame of mind. So, you know, I think of it with my own definition. I really see our mindset as somewhat of a kaleidoscope of our values. Our beliefs, our experiences in life, our worldview, the habits that come from those things, both good and bad. Our outlook. And then what do we do with all of those things? Because I think our frame of mind is something that is not, doesn't have to be set in concrete. I think it's something that we can take ownership of. So that's how I would define frame of mind.

Kevin 3:47

Michelle, thanks for that definition. And now that we have a good definition of mindset, let's delve into coaching a little bit. How is the understanding of the concept of mindset important for people who are leader coaches?

Michelle 4:03

Well, I think one of the biggest things is knowing, understanding your own kaleidoscope. And what that looks like in each of ours are different. We may have a lot of things in common but each of us are unique. So understanding how that mindset creates our own judgments. And sometimes those judgements are good. But other times those judgments and those values can get in our way and they can be tied very closely to our bias. And our blind spots. And I think that's why it's so important to understand our mindset, especially as a leader, coach.

Kevin 4:36

Thank you. I agree with that. I think about when you talk about kaleidoscope all the different little pieces or fragments or different experiences that all come together to create this wonderful, beautiful image and just the slightest turn, it can be something completely different based on a new or a different experience. I really liked that, visual of thinking about a mindset as a kaleidoscope.

Debby 5:01

Yeah, I do too. I love the first I bought his look of work kaleidoscope. When you think of a kaleidoscope and I don't know, Michelle, if I ever thought of all those pieces that do go into mindset, you know, I think I've always kind of thought mindset was much simpler, but you're right. All those pieces influence. Your mindset. So you've already expanded my whole vision, mind mindset thing, for sure. And I love when you talked about ownership that we take ownership of our mindset. So can you tell us a little bit, because I think we all agree that, you know, definitely as a leader coach, you need to have that coaching mindset. And we would love to instill that coaching mindset into other people, especially the people that we're coaching. So how do you know if you have it? So when we're talking about taking ownership, what are those clues that tell you that, if we have someone sitting out there, who's saying, I wonder if I have it or not. And then how do you see it? In other people,

Michelle 5:58

Yeah. Well, one of the things I think about with our mindset and taking ownership of that is identifying what we want that mindset to be. And we might want our mindset to be something different in different situations. And so the situation of being a coach and being a leader coach, it means there are times as a leader. I need to show up as directly. But there are also times that I'm going to pull out this tool of coaching. And so being really intentional and practicing just a couple of deep breaths and centering yourself before you go into a conversation that you want to be a coaching conversation rather than a directing or telling conversation. One of my favorite words over the last year or two and I've got another one I'm going to save for later to share with you, but it's the word. And that genuine curiosity. And I think when we are practicing a coaching mindset, that's one of the biggest things we have to ask ourselves. And that is, am I trying to direct this conversation even by asking questions or what we call some questions where I'm actually suggesting something in a question. And are you going to go to HR with. Do you think that, you know, at what we're really doing is, is suggesting what we think they should do, even though we put it in a question format, that's not showing curiosity. But really genuinely asking what do you want to do with this? What have you tried? So. It then goes to that place of, I genuinely want to learn. I'm not trying to direct you here. I want to grow from learning from you because one thing when we're serving as coach, even as a leader, coach, we're both learning together through this process and to borrow when a Covey's terms of being in that place of seeking to understand before being understood and really. Learning the skills. And I think it's a constant skill learning process. At least it is for me of being a good listener and recognizing that that's not just being quiet, being quiet is a part of it. But being a curious listener as well. So those are some of the skills that, that I see really help a person have a mindset of, of a coaching mindset.

JoAnn 8:02

That's such a, yeah, that's some great information. I have a personal request here in a minute, but I want to ask question of like, as a leader, coach getting that mindset, how important is it? Is I totally agree with everything that you said. How do you test to see if. The person you're trying to coach has a coaching mindset or are open to being coached. How do you, how do you gauge.

Michelle 8:28

I think that's a great question. I'd also love to hear from my other fellow coaches on this. And if we've, if any of you have coached for a length of time, you probably have experienced someone where you just feel like, man, I don't know if this person is coachable. And I've seen it show up personally in a couple of different ways. As a leader, And because even though I'm a coach, I'm still a leader. So as a leader and with leaders that I've coached, I've seen where people are so used to coming to the leader and the leader, giving them an answer that they almost look like a deer in the headlights when you ask them some questions and they will shut down. And I will say, well, I just really want you to tell me, or, you know, just tell me what you need me to do. And so in that case, we have to help lead the. To an understanding of what we're doing. And that is that we want them to critically engage. We want them to think. And then there's you know, there's others that I have encountered, not, not a lot, but I have encountered sometimes that they don't really have a growth mindset. They feel like what they've done. They don't want to do anything differently, even if it's not working. Everybody else needs to change what they're doing and they don't see the patterns of, well, this has been something that's happened in my last four jobs. Oh. And by the way, my significant other and my kids complain about this too. And if my dog could complain, they would complain to you. So like, they're not able to see I'm exaggerating here a little bit, but they're not able to see the themes and patterns. Maybe I'm the common denominator here. Maybe I'm the one who needs to take some ownership to make some changes. So those are some things that I have seen. I'm curious, you all are very experienced coaches. What have you seen that says this person does not have a coachable mindset?

Debby 10:09

Sometimes I definitely see that resistance. And I think that part of that is digging underneath the surface. I think for them sometimes it's the fear of. Just the coaching process, when someone's asking you questions and they're not giving you the answers, that actually can be a little more scary than when someone is directing you. And so sometimes I feel like I mistake someone as not being coachable for that fear. They're just, they're afraid of the process. They're afraid of the discovery that they may need to go through the work that they may need to go. I tried to remind myself. As the leader, coach of that, sometimes that may be what that story I'm telling myself about what I think is happening. That this person isn't coachable that there's, there's more to it. And then I may need to come from it from a different angle. And maybe just be a little more at, you said worldview, think about their worldview a little bit more.

Kevin 11:06

I've experienced the person that was challenging because. The way they approached everything was, everything was happening to them. They had completely absolved any control. Like their locus of control was completely, almost completely outside of them. Well, this happened to me and I can't do this well. What about this? Well, all the work is piled on me this week. Well, what about this? Well, this happened this week and it was every time in, they were not committed to the process. And I started to question, is this person. Vested in the coaching, or is this a person whose manager told them you need a coach? Were they seeking coaching or are they just going through the process? Because it was on their performance or development plan? And so we would go back and forth. Did not make a lot of progress because not only they would reschedule meetings, different things like that. Reflecting back on what was going on with the person, I really thought about their mindset. I don't know that they believe things were actually going to get better for them. They were just kind of stuck on things, not working out for them. And to tell the truth, it made me feel a little sad as a coach. Because I was trying to support them moving forward, but I'm not sure they were interested in moving forward. I think they may have found some reward or satisfaction in being in that place. I don't know what that was about, we just had to move on. So our coaching arrangement ended at a certain time and I wish the person the best. It was the energy we were putting into. It was not giving them any returns.

Michelle 12:48

If I can just share. I think of something that both of you said here, Kevin playing off what you're just sharing. I think of Kiplingers, jurors drama, triangle, and some, you know, we get stuck in different orientations and stuck in that. And. and empowered that victim orientation. And if, if I am in the victim orientation, I always need someone or something to be persecuting me or rescuing me. And then they want us as coach to just rescue rather than to get them to critically engage in think. So I immediately thought of that and I love the way you put it. Everything's happening to me and versus how do we shift them to that creator mindset to create something different for themselves, but they have to want to we can battle that as you can lead them. To water. And Debbie, what you were saying really you were talking about pers individuals being possibly afraid of, you know, now, if you just tell me what to do, it's very transactional. I go do it and tell me what to do. But if you're getting me to critically engage, not always. And I'm responsible for these decisions that I come up with. I have to take a whole different level of ownership, but I also kind of was pinging back and forth in my brain about the leader who's trying to coach. And I just had a session recently and the leader was struggling. He's trying so hard to use coaching skills but his biggest struggle is, and he, finally just owned it. He said, I've always had to be the smartest person. And now you're asking me not to be the smartest person in the room. You're asking me to let others be anyway. It was just a really great, great conversation, but both of you just really brought a couple of different things to my mind. So thank you for that. And JoAnn. You've been coaching longer than, than the other three of us. I'm sure you could tell us all kinds of stories.

JoAnn 14:34

I'm very interested in what you guys are talking about and yes, we've all experienced all of those things. You don't have. One thing that I used to say often is when someone said, well, maybe they're just not coachable. And I would say everybody's coachable, but just not, maybe by me, are you right? Is how important making that connection and. Debbie alluded to that is as part of our roles as our leader, coaches is to make that connection with people. If you just show up one day and start trying to coach your folks, who've never had it, never experienced that before. You're going to create lots of fear and, you know, and people feel in true. Are you trying to trap me? Is that what you're trying to do? So I think one of the things that. I always try to remind myself is if this is the person's first experience of what coaching is, or they've not experienced me in that in a coaching role is to make sure that we define what that is. What's going to happen the next steps and check in often with that person. So I, I loved all those reminders that each of you gave there tonight. Michelle, was also thinking, as you were talking, because like I say, I've worked and known you for quite a while. And I know that this is something that you actually taught workshops on as mindset. How do you work on your own mindset? And can you give us an example of what that looks like for you when you're working on your own mindset?

Michelle 16:06

Before we go there, I wanted to say something because they think it's so important. Joanne, man, I wish we had another hour to talk about leaders when they start showing up as coaches and they start wanting to use these coaching skills and. One of the first things they need to ask is what have I educated people on what I'm doing? Because if you've not ever used that skill before people are going to be a little panicky, but the other is what are your, what is your relationship with each of these direct reports? Because you have to be in a trusting relationship in order to be in a coaching relationship. So anyway, that's a whole nother conversation, but I just, I felt like we'd be remiss if we didn't share that Michelle. So in thinking about my own personal mindset and development, you know several years ago, this was before I even became a coach. I was in healthcare administration and I was really starting to learn about emotional intelligence and learning from myself. The difference between just just having a bad day or, oh, that person just gives me a bad vibe. I don't really like them. Versus saying. What's really going on here. So going back to that definition that I used of, of mindset, you know, we don't just wake up on the wrong side of the bed that doesn't happen. There is no wrong side of the bed. And so, you know, just like when we meet people and we've never met them before, what, now I'm not saying that there's sometimes we don't have a negative vibe, but maybe is it tied into that? They remind us of someone or something, or some, some of our own prejudices is that we think are hidden, you know, that know. There. And so there's, there's just something really that's going on. For me, Working on my own mindset has been just that recognizing that these are excuses that I use. And they've been crutches and I don't want them any longer to be crutches for me. I want to be aware if I'm feeling a certain way or my mindset has shifted. Cause you, I don't know if you guys have experienced this, but something can happen. And boy, my mindset can shift like that, you know, in, in situations. And it's like, wait a second. I just gave my power. I just gave somebody else, you know, control of how I'm feeling right here right now. I really like practicing those moments of mindfulness. Now I've tried meditation. I've got to admit for people who can do it. I think it's wonderful. I can do like. And so, and I do, I will practice, you know, deep breathing and just trying to center myself. And if I really worked on my own self-awareness to say, Hey, what's what's going on here. You know, one of the other things that I've really been intentional, probably over about the last eight or nine years to work when, and I learned the language around this from one of the tools we use called EQ learning and action, and it's measuring our emotional intelligence practice, actually measuring what's going on inside of us under stressful situation. And that's when I have to pay more attention to my own mindset. It's measures a whole lot of different things, but it measures our thoughts wants and feelings. That's one aspect. Well, I'm really strong in my thoughts and wants, so I'm a good thinker and I'm good at knowing how to move to act. But what I learned from this tool is that I'm not as good at allowing myself to feel, what am I feeling? I just want to go to logic and to moving forward. And so with my mindset, I've also been really intentional. Now I know me. I'm not going to sit around for half an hour thinking about how I'm feeling, but allowing myself to even have some time to same Michelle. What are you feeling? What do you think the other person might be feeling here and I've used, and I use it in a lot of our training sessions, the wheel of emotion. So my first response, maybe I feel angry, but maybe it's not angry. Maybe it's sad. Maybe I feel disrespected. Maybe I, you know, so if I can pull those words out, I can get more to the source. When I get to the source, then I can work on it. Then I can also be a whole lot more. Self-aware. When that mindset hits me again, what were the triggers? What caused that? And what can I do about it? So that might've been a much longer definition than what you were looking for, but those are just some of the things that have helped me.

JoAnn 20:06

I have seen that in action. Michelle, would you, ain't got a one thing is that I know, I've experienced it with you and Debbie and Kevin too. Sometimes it is. That pause that we all have to take, like, hold on a sec, you know, don't, don't let your feelings or whatever's going on drag you any deeper stop right now. That's the thing that I've had to work over the years is not let my emotions or my feelings. Pull me to recognize that. And I think one of the things that I that's been really helpful for me is to have people like you guys in my life who helped point that out. Sometimes I don't like it being pointed out, but you know, but it's having people in your life. That'll say, Hey, hold on a second. You know, you seem really, you know, passionate about this or emotional by let's talk about that. Right? I think as coaches, we always need other people speaking in our lives as well and definetly as leaders to allow those people in our life to, point those things out so we can work on that mindset. Michelle thanks for all that. Absolutely.

Debby 21:22

I feel like that's been highlighted over the last couple years, especially, you know, I feel like it comes up a lot and people will talk to me a lot about in the past, how they would kind of have the. I'm just going to suck it up and move on mentality. But what happens is they don't deal with the feeling. They don't identify it, they don't deal with it. And then it overtakes them. Right. Feel the feelings is what is the phrase I've been hearing a lot. The last couple of years is just, just feel the feelings deal with it for a little bit. And then you can figure out the action to move forward in your heads in such a, a better mindset, a better place to get you where you, when you're

Michelle 21:59

attracting. You know, Debbie and I'm, I'm going to botch this quote. So somebody who knows it better, please call in and tell us, but it's a Freud quote about our hidden feelings and emotions. If we suppress them only come out in uglier ways. And that's very true. And so learning how to have a whole. Dictionary of words to use, to be able to articulate and express, even if we're not doing it anybody else, but ourselves, while we are feeling and what we're working through. And then how do I want that to show up? As coaches and we pride ourselves in being able to challenge other people and challenge their assumptions and their beliefs and their, you know, thought process as well, physician heal thyself. So we need to put that mirror right back at ourselves and challenge our own selves in those areas as well.

Kevin 22:48

I completely agree as you were talking, I was thinking about, we should stop feigning surprise when we act the way we've always act and we should own those things and then come up with strategies and ways to move from one place to the other. So if it's feelings or actions or reflection or wherever you have a tendency to get stuck, understand that's your sticking point? And come up with ways to move through that. And Michelle, you mentioned strategies and I love to hear I'm sitting on the edge of my seat, waiting to hear what strategies do you use to help people challenge their mindset. And is that different for the coach, the leader coach? Is it different for the person? Are they the same, which is curious about what kind of strategies you use to help people challenge their mindsets?

Michelle 23:41

Yeah, I think it's what I'm going to share the same things. We can use them on ourselves. We can use them with those that we're coaching, whether we are doing it as a coaching profession or we're using the coaching tool as a leader. You know, I think one of them. Is the curious questions. I like supportive questions, but I don't find that supportive questions, challenge or mindset. So I liked the more challenging questions for mindset as far as that's one way to look at it. What's another and this is one of my favorite questions. I even like to ask it of myself and that is if nothing changes. What can you do different? And, and I've, I've heard JoAnn use this when I think she stole it from Dr. Phil or Dr. Phil stolen from her, but that how's that working for? You we'll say the doctor Phil's still there from her. You know, I think one of the other things that I really like to use are the circles of influence or the circles of control. And that is what is in your control. What can you influence and where. And this is my own paraphrasing. Where are you wasting all your energy and things that are not in your control. And if it's not in your control, can you pull it into influence? If you can't then what is your. And I hear people say, they're, you know, and my boss is this and my companies that I know, know that fortunately, I don't work with too many people in that, that space, but what is in your control, as you can leave, you don't have to stay there. You can create a strategy and you can find an exit, but, but staying in that place of hopelessness, which almost goes Kevin to what you're talking about that, and I'm not talking about somebody that's been victimized, that's different from somebody with a victim mentality, right? Yeah. So those are, those are some of the things that. Use in helping some strategies to help challenge a person's mindset.

Kevin 25:22

So switching from supportive questions to challenging questions, that's a great strategy.

JoAnn 25:29

Yeah. So. Michelle helped me out. I'm a leader coach and I'm struggling with challenging my mindset, you know, I'm of a certain age now, and I'm really not interested in changing my mindset. So if you were coaching me or mentoring me, what is one thing that you would recommend that I do?

Michelle 25:52

Well, I think you first need to identify your why, why are we even talking about this? If you're setting your ways and you don't want to challenge your mindset, then what's, what's valuable about this conversation to you? I think asking things like what. What would you want to change in your mindset? I would say if you don't have a coach get a coach, I'm a big believer in that. Even as coaches, I think we should have coaches. And I think you guys alluded to that earlier that we should be open to be coached ourselves and be open to create those new neurological pathways of, you know, and the only way that starts is through conscious competence. So if I'm in that place of being. Consciously aware that I'm in competent in some areas and what do I do? Where do I get skills? What books do I need to read? Do you know what podcasts like this one? Do I listen to you know, who can coach me to help me to shift that mindset, but I have to know my why and I have to want to desire. To grow in this area because creating those new neurological pathways is not easy creating new habits. Our brain is lazy. Even when we work hard, it wants to go to the path of least resistance, what it's most familiar with, you know, and then asking yourself who can support you and who can help hold you accountable to what it is that you want to accomplish.

Debby 27:03

I'm going to use that next time doing a Kevin get on my case. I'm going to say, leave my lazy brain.

Michelle 27:10

It's tired today.

Debby 27:13

It's taking the easiest

Michelle 27:14

route, so that's right.

JoAnn 27:19

Well

Debby 27:19

I before I asked you our close up questions, I do want to mention something. Michelle, I have to admit I'm a little bit of a self-awareness D I like assessments and things like that. And I actually took an assessment through MSB coach, the coaching mindset index, and yeah, I mean coaching for a while. And not that I didn't think I would learn anything from it. Well, you know, I thought, oh, it's good. It's going to come out the way. I think it's going to come out. And it did come out the way. I think it was going to come out the results. And it shifted my perspective on is that where I want to be is the results that I got the way I want to show up as a coach. And when you talked about. You know, sometimes the, as a leader, we have a bigger framework we have to worry about right. We're coaching. And we're asking those curious questions. We also need to get results and we have processes. And, you know, we have certain things as a leader that we need to accomplish. So those challenging questions come into play. And that was my takeaway from that index was, am I asking enough challenging questions? I'm doing the supportive side and I'm doing the curiosity. And how am I doing on the other end of the, of the spectrum. And so I just want to put a plugin for tools like that, that can help you. If you've been a leader for a long time, you've been at coach for a long time, or you're new to, with tools like that can just help shift your perspective or give you a little snapshot of how you're doing and then you can figure out, okay, how might I want to change things up? Because I think a lot of the resistance I hear from leaders to coaching is. I'm supposed to be the expert on everything I'm supposed to direct everybody incident. That's why they have a hard time with the coaching

Michelle 28:58

mindset. Yeah. And, and, you know, I think without diving too deep in this. Before I even learned about the coaching mindset and it's, which I really do enjoy that tool because it's one of the tools I call simple brilliance, where it really is simple. You don't have to have 50 pages to read and it helps to target things, but it also helps to show us like to compare it to situational leadership of knowing that. But if I only, especially as a leader, If I only camp in this area and probably not going to be as successful because I'm not using some of these other tools that helped me to be an effective leader coach in particular. But even as a coach and I think so often it's so personality based. I think some people are going to be more inclined. To be more of a supportive leader, coach, more of an encouraging leader coach. And some people are going to be more inclined to be more of that challenger, a little more prickly and push you until we'll also have a tendency to be drawn to different occupations that maybe reward that behavior a little more, but then, like you said, asking ourselves, where can I be more? Well-rounded using all of these different approaches, recognizing my whole. This is the one I'm most familiar with and most comfortable with and where can even, I stretch myself out of those. Yeah. So thanks for bringing that up.

Debby 30:14

Before we let you go, Michelle, and we're going to have to have you back, cause I, like you said, I feel like there's a lots of things we could, we could be talking about, but this kind of. Goes off in, but we have three questions that we like to ask all our, all our guests. They're super easy. I promise. So the first one is what's a book that you think a leader coach should be.

Michelle 30:34

Do I only have to give one or if I say them real fast, does that count as one? Because

Debby 30:40

that's where I say really?

Michelle 30:41

Goodness, I all right. I can't do it. I have to give you a couple. So I really liked the book called the quiet leader. And it's not about being a quiet leader, but it's about learning these skills. For overall, I like, you know, change your questions, change your. Um, If you just want a great book of questions. And this was actually one that I worked on in a program. This was one of the required reading books. And I still like sometimes when I'm feeling stuck with a client, but it's called coaching questions and it's just a coaching guide to, with all kinds of questions listed in it. So, and, and whenever I hear somebody with a great question, I'll jot that down. So I'm really big about just like, Ooh, that was a good one. And it might not even have been a coach. It could have just been, you know, someone who, who was asking a good question. So those are a couple of recommendations that I have, sorry, that I broke the rule and gave more.

Kevin 31:34

We'll let it slide.

Michelle 31:36

I didn't get, I didn't get the shock in my chair. So I appreciate that. Well,

Debby 31:41

we have, we have a couple of role breakers on the coaches, three teams. So I think

Michelle 31:45

I can imagine I won't point at them. So, Michelle,

Debby 31:51

what question had you been asked that just really gave you pause or just made you stop and

Michelle 31:56

think. Well, one of my favorite is, is that in your control is, you know, the thing that I'm maybe going on and on about what sort of control do you have over that? Or what sort of influence do you have over that? And then going back to, I hear you saying that. What are you going to do about it? So I, I am one that I want to be supported, but I also want to be challenged. You've probably heard challenges, both of those. I like someone to ask me questions that are thought provoking that get me to think more deeply because I can be pretty strong headed. And so I appreciate when someone gets me to think differently. Now, now at the time I might not like. But later I guarantee I'm going to wake up at two or three in the morning running that question through my head again. Great. And Michelle, what is your word on pitch? So I think I had already mentioned the word curious earlier. I just, to me curious, has so many dimensions to it. So I can't let that word go, but the other word is intention. Um, We have to be intentional to use these skills effectively.

JoAnn 33:08

We're right there with you. Michelle, thank you so much for being with us today. And for those of you that are listening in and would like to contact Michelle it's Michelle Braden at MSB coach.com. You can find her just Google her and Michelle, thank you again. And, and to my colleagues, Debbie and Kevin is usual. It's always a pleasure. And we want to thank you, our listening audience as well, and, and challenge you. We've talked a lot about that. Challenge you to go out to our word on coaching podcast and not only listen to Michelle's again, cause there was a lot of points, but there's there's other podcasts out there that hopefully will support you. And. Connect with us on our coaches three Facebook page as well. And it has lots of information out there. And our big news is our book is coming out about that. So with that once again, thank you for joining us and until then that's the word on coaching?