Season 6 Episode 4: The Word on Coaching - Struggle

Have you ever struggled?
Have ever gotten stronger after you came through your struggle?
If you answered yes or no to either of those questions then check out this podcast episode.

In this episode, Ayn Grubb shares her insights and approaches to helping people understand that learning is in the struggle.

Ayn is a long-time practitioner of education. She has taught for several years in public school systems, facilitated learning for teachers, and is currently leading a curriculum effort in her school system

Tune in a hear how rescuing people from their struggle seldom yields the results the person or the coach desires.

We hope you enjoy this episode 

Contact Information:
(1) Ayn Grubb | Facebook

Recommended Books in this Podcast Episode:

Amazon.com: Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don't: 9780066620992: Jim Collins: Books

The Stockdale Paradox

 https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/lead-wherever-you-are/202009/the-stockdale-paradox-maintaining-gritty-mindset

Check out our best-selling book The Word on Coaching.  Buy a copy for yourself and copies to share with others. It is a great resource for one-on-one and group discussions.

Amazon.com: The Word on Coaching: 9781737643807: Neely, Debby, Auger, Joann, Fuselier, Kevin: Books

Also, please check out a quick guide about powerful questions: "Embrace the Power of Questions!"   A Quick Reference Guide to Getting the Answers You Need.  

Transcript

Kevin 0:06

Hello everyone. Welcome to the Word On Coaching podcast. I'm Kevin Fuser and I'm here with Debbie this evening. Joanne is not going to be on the podcast with us, but we have a special guest today. We are coaches three. Three friends with years of leadership and coaching experience who want to share our passion with others, our podcasts, our four leaders, whether you have the formal title or. Because we know a lot of you out there are leading without a title. our podcast, we focus on one word that relates to leadership and coaching. We know leadership is hard, so we along with our guests, give you tips, information, a fresh perspective and always a lot of support. We got. Today I'm excited have a friend of mine, Ann Grub. Ann Grub is a college friend of mine and she is what I call my English literature learning genius. And we have relied on her in many different ways. I mean, she's the friend I call when I don't know whether to use a comma, a semicolon, neither. Or is it either, that's when I call, that's that's when I call in because I don't know what I'm doing from a literary standpoint. So she was actually one of the first readers of our book. And so that's kind of how, my personal background, I've known Anne since. But I'll let Anne tell you a little bit more about herself. So go ahead, Anne, please share a little bit more about yourself.

Ayn 1:50

Thank you, Kevin, and thank you, Debbie. It's great to be here. I am, I've been in education for 30 years. I've spent time in middle school classrooms and high school classrooms. I've worked on curriculum teams, which is where I am currently. For the last 23 years, I've done a lot of consulting work teaching teachers all over the region, mostly, but in other parts of the country as well. If my mother were here telling you this, she'd be telling you that I've been a teacher my whole life. So that's, that's who I am.

Kevin 2:31

That's awesome. Is there anything else you'd like to share about your work or any projects or anything that you're working on right now?

Ayn 2:39

Yes. I just got accepted to a graduate program for my master's in social work, Kevin. Awesome.

Debby 2:46

Congratulations. Yay.

Ayn 2:48

Yay. Congratulations. First thing I will have ever been involved in, but I'm excited. I just got that news today.

Kevin 2:57

That is exciting. Continual improvement. You know, in coaching, that's one of the things that we really focus on is continuous learning and look at you being a model of continuous learning. Well, guess what? I finish my master's degree as an adult and my friend, I have a little bit of advice for you. It's gonna be hard some days. But guess what we're talking about today? We're talking about the struggle. So for today's episode, our word is struggle. Hmm. This is an interesting topic that Anne and I have talked about quite a few different times in many different settings and in separate types of context. So Anne actually chose the word struggle. And so Anne, I'd like you to share with us why did you choose the word struggle? Where did the idea come from? Can you define what it means in the context of this conversation? Yes.

Ayn 3:58

It's actually been a thing that I live by for such a long time. I'm not sure I can pinpoint exactly when it started. I know how it started. It started at some point early in my teaching career, I started to recognize this pattern. Students, students struggle. To, to understand the work that they're doing or they struggle to, to master the skill that I'm helping them master. And I saw what they were doing as they struggled in class, and somehow I put it together with struggles that I had experienced. Throughout my life you know, going through a bad breakup or trying to figure out how to change your major in college, I can remember times when I'm just am consumed by like doubt and worry and you know, what am I gonna do and how am I gonna fix this? And it was always, almost always sitting with my mom and just sort of talking through that. And I watched my students. Emerge from these struggles in the classroom stronger. And I put that together with every, every hard thing that I ever went through in my life. I came through it stronger. I came through it better for having experienced that struggle and I got to a place where I. I appreciated the struggle. I appreciated even, you know, the really bad things that happen sometimes to people. The, you know, some bad things happened in my life. I got to a place where I appreciated those things because the struggle to overcome it made me who I am. And I started saying this to my. You know, minus any personal conversation. But I started saying this to my students that the learning happens in the struggle. Oh, they hate hearing that. The learning happens in the struggle, Ms. Grub. No. That means we have to do something hard. Yes, we come through that struggle on the other side, and we're stronger for it. We're better for it because that's where the learning happens. When

Debby 6:26

you were talking, I keep thinking, I don't know if you heard that phrase about the, the setback is a setup for my comeback, kind of, right. That whole, that whole phrase I hear people talk about. And I have to say, and I'm really resonating. I had a struggle last year. I broke my ankle and I ha went through a whole recovery thing with that. And I was so resistant to people asking me, what are you learning from this experience? I was like, I don't wanna talk about it. Right. But now I'm like, I learned a lot from that. Now I'm, now I'm getting this, the learning from, from the struggle. So I, this is really resonating with me for sure.

Ayn 7:01

Yeah. It's never, it's never a fun thing to think. In the moment, like the, when I'm imagining sitting sitting with my mom and my stepdad and we were trying to help me figure out how to change my major in college and it was, this like, seems like such a small thing at this point, but it was a huge ordeal for me and I remember them sitting there. Just quietly asking gentle questions. They weren't pushing, they weren't saying, well, it has to happen. Like, you know, or even, what are you learning from this? It's in that moment, you just need space to do your struggle, right? And when you're, when you're done in, in the after times, you can look. Reflection is huge. Right? If you can reflect later and say, oh, this is what I learned. It's the struggle that brings that learning to us.

Debby 8:02

Yeah. So we use that language a lot. People say, I'm struggling in, in a negative connotation, right? The struggle is real. I'm struggling through this. I'm going through a struggle. So, but what you talk about it, it sounds like it all turns out. Okay, great. And, and so why, why do you think people are so afraid of that concept of struggling

Ayn 8:23

well in the moment? It's very uncomfortable, right? I don't want anybody talking to me about the learning. You said that same thing. I don't wanna talk about the learning when I'm struggling cuz the struggling is hard. It's, it's uncomfortable in so many ways and in so many different contexts. We equate struggle with failure. Like it's a finished thing already, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and it's, we're not finished. We're all still here. We're not finished. So the, the struggle is uncomfortable. We think of that as an end point, as a failure. And it, it's hard to have that perspective that you're gonna have in the after times. It's hard to have that perspective in the.

Kevin 9:09

That word to use failure, you know, that's the F word in any context. And it, we start to get I don't, I wanna say conditioned, I was trying to find a good word for it, is, you know, when you start school and you go through school and you, you don't want to fail, you want to get a f, you know, and all the, that's the things that you struggle with. And I think about the behaviors that people exhibit when they are struggling. Everybody wants to mask their struggle because it's almost like a sign of weakness. Like you should know your timetables by now. Or you've Johnson, you've been here for two years. You don't know what return on investment means. You know, it's all this, I'm failing, you know, and people have all this stuff around failing. So I was thinking about what advice would you give someone in who, someone who is currently struggling or in the struggle, what advice would, would you give?

Ayn 10:04

You know, so much what we, what we say when we're talking about coaching is, is about trust building a trusting relationship between yourself and the person that you're coaching. But specifically for the question that you just asked me, for the person in the struggle, the advice I give. Cultivate that. Trust in yourself. You gotta trust yourself. You made it this far. There's a lot that you know, this struggle is not an end. This struggle is a thing that's building you to be better. Just gotta trust. Yeah, I

Debby 10:46

love that. I think, and remembering the struggles you've been through before. And how you came out on the other end, you know, you were resilient, you bet you bounced back that so you could do it again, kind of a thing. I also love the reframe for people to be able to give yourself a little grace and say, I haven't done this yet, or I don't know this yet. Like, you, you know, that reframe instead of beating your, using language that kind of beats yourself up

Ayn 11:14

yet is one of my favorite words. There's so much power in those three little words. Three little letters. Yes.

Kevin 11:23

When we talk about this subject and there's so many things I wanna ask you right now, but I'm just gonna ask this one right now. I was thinking about a story that you told me one time when we were talking about this concept, and you told me that the parents, I guess they called you or they came up to the school and they confronted. Because you wouldn't just give their son the answer. Why wouldn't you just give him the answer? He said he didn't know. Why didn't you just give him the answer? And you told, if I recall correctly, you told the parents, well, he had access to all these resources in the room. And they were like, well, he was struggling. And you kind of explained to them, well, that's how he learns how to be resourceful. That's how he's able to find the. When he needs them, because I'm not always going to be there to give him the answer. So talk to me about the downsides of rescuing people from the struggle. What's the downside of that?

Ayn 12:26

Well, if we believe that the learning happens in the struggle, if we take away the struggle, we take away the learning. We robbed the person of the opportunity to learn. That is, that is the hardest thing as a teacher, as a mom, as a, as an employer. It's the hardest thing I have to remember. This is the moment when the person is going to learn and I'm here to keep it, you know. Keep a soft landing. It's not gonna be failure. I'm here watching, I'm spotting like a cheerleader, right? I've got my arms up and I'm ready. But the person is gonna learn if I let them stumble a little bit, if I let them struggle a little bit, if I step in and solve it, no learning happens. We skip right over it.

Debby 13:26

I used to have her friend and she would make me laugh so hard I didn't under, and I know she would never let her child get hurt, but she would say, you know, sometimes when my son is coming down the slide and, and he's waiting for me, I'm waiting for him at the bottom, and he, and he's waiting for me to catch him. She said, sometimes I don't. Like I find a lot like fine. So he learns that sometimes he has to be his own safety net or he has to problem solve himself. And I know, you know, again, she would never let him actually get hurt. But that was, I think that was part of what you were saying too. She's like, sometimes I'm the safety net and sometimes I have to know when to step aside and, and let him figure out he's gotta put his feet down and stand up, you know, himself. So I think it's really interesting. And it's so funny cuz I was just talking to a leader about this today cuz he was struggling with when do I step back and when do I step in as a leader, I'm trying to create this environment of collaboration and empowerment and, you know, and all of that. But I don't know, when do I step in because I, it's, it's necessary, you know, they, they need my help and when do I need to step back because I just need to build their. So what would be your answer to that? When, when do you step in and help someone in the struggle and when do you say, okay, I'm, I'm gonna step back.

Ayn 14:44

I don't think there is an answer to that question. I don't think there's one answer to that question. In every different coaching relationship and every different, you know, relationship, there is a different dynamic and it, it all. Be based on the trust that you have built in that relationship, right? Mm-hmm. I think the words that you've, that you mentioned earlier, empowerment and collaboration. If you want those to be the foundation of the relationship, then you, you can't just step in, right? Because it has to be something where a person has requested. Which is really hard because from out here I can tell that you need help long before you are ready to ask for my help. But how useful is my help going to be from out here when I'm offering it? When you haven't asked for it? It's, there's a, there's a really murky gray line that, that. Every, every person in that situation has to figure out, is it cheating for me to say I don't have an answer to that question. I mean, it, it just has to be based on the relationship and the, and the people involved. That's why

Debby 16:06

leadership is hard. We always say, if we could get, if we could write a, a manual and this is how you handle every single situation, we would be rich. Right. Alright. Because leadership's hard. It's the, it, like you said, there's a lot of gray where you, and we talked about trust, where you have to trust yourself, trust your gut, trust your heart, trust your head, right. What, what those things are telling you to do in that moment.

Kevin 16:26

Yeah. And I think one of, one of the things that we've run into, and we, I guess coach people not to do this is. There's some people that they have built their business reputation off of being the person who has the answer. So they feel like it is their job to give everyone the answer, but they are not building or developing their team. And I would have different frustrations at different time because they would say, well, I can't be away from my desk for half a day in this class. And I will tell them, if you cannot be away from your desk for half a day, then you are the very person who needs to come to this class. Because if your team cannot function for four hours without you, that is evidence that there is a problem. With the way that you're leading your team, right? If you don't have a team that's can be self-sufficient and problem solve and you have to be there to provide all the answers to rescue, anytime there's a struggle, it's like that's why you're burned out as a leader cuz you are taking on everyone's struggle. And I, and I see that, I've seen it with parents, I've seen it with leaders where. The person is struggling, and instead of coaching and developing the person through the struggle, they just take the struggle off of the person and they take it on themselves. Oh, move out of the way. Let me do this, and then they'll do this, or gimme that, send me that memo. I'll re, and the person never really develops. And then the, the person becomes dependent. And whenever they have a struggle, they just go to their manager and the manager takes a struggle. And it's like, that's not healthy. That

Ayn 18:02

is not healthy. It's worn out burned out. And the the people are not learning, they're not developing the skills to manage themselves, which becomes boring. Right. If I'm not being challenged in my role if I'm not learning something, then I. I'm not gonna be satisfied in that job. And so I'm gonna have to, as the manager, I'm gonna have to keep, you know, shuffling people through that, that those roles, because people aren't gonna wanna stay on my team. There's just a whole host of, of problems that come up when, when you're leading that way. I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of the classroom and when you. Sometimes that's the way the person wants to lead. They wanna know all that. They wanna be the person with all the answers. I'm think we probably all could think of at least one teacher from our own schooling, right? Who that person was there because they knew all of the answers. And I'm here to grace you with my presence and tell you all the things that I know you need to know. That's not the most fun class to be in, you know, because

Kevin 19:20

you get to be wrong a lot. Yes. As a student, you get to be wrong a lot. That's what happens.

Ayn 19:26

Yep. Yeah. So, yes, I agree with what you're saying.

Debby 19:32

So, and how do we find our future leaders, our future teachers, right? If, if we don't develop them and allow them to, to grow into that potential. So how, what would be your advice? And then to how do we leverage the struggle, the concept of struggle to, to do that, to improve people's performance and and development. So what, what's your, your thought on how, how do we do that? How do we create struggle maybe even sometimes for people?

Ayn 20:00

Well, so I, I'm not sure about this one. So, I love the idea of creating struggle. I'm, I'm not sure how I would answer this question. How do we leverage, struggle to, to build up that skill in our, in the people on our team? Hmm, I'm sorry. I'm not sure what to say about that one.

Kevin 20:28

That is quite all right. Imagine. Struggling with a question during our podcasts on struggling. I think that's interesting.

Debby 20:38

Okay. Yeah, I think some, no, I think, I think sometimes it's you know, as soon as we see potential people they don't see in themselves. And so I think offering them like, Hey, I want you to lead this meeting. I want you to lead this classroom or project. Or sometimes putting them in situations where it's gonna feel like a struggle to them and it's gonna feel very uncomfortable, but we know, hey, I'm, I'm leveraging the struggle because I see the potential. I know this person can do this and that, and that's going to help them either realize it themselves and build their confidence or gain some experience and skills. Right. But hopefully we'll help them. So that's one of the things I wa I was thinking of with that too, is, you know, helping them grow into their, their potential and give them the opportunities to do that.

Ayn 21:25

Yes. I'm thinking of um, of a person on my current team who sits on a, in a group where one of those team members. Is leaving the role and it's sort of the leadership of this, of this team. And he was asked to, and he, he didn't wanna do it, but he was asked to sort of fill in while that, while that other role was being filled it's, it's still an open position. But. He does not want to be the one that everybody turns to on that particular team for whatever reason. I've heard from several people who were like, he is doing a great job. Thank you. They said to me, his boss for letting him, you know, spend that little bit of extra time. And so it's a fine line right from where I sit, I say, yeah, I know you don't wanna do it. I can talk to them about, I, I didn't get to talk to anybody, but, so he's doing it and I know that he can do it. Mm-hmm. And I'm hearing from all the people that he is doing well at it. So yeah, he's getting to grow some, some muscle there. Yeah. I love

Debby 22:40

that. Cuz sometimes people raise their hand to be the leader. Sometimes they're tapped on the shoulder. And sometimes they try it out and say, I love this. And sometimes they try it out and say, I don't wanna do this. Right. But I think that's all the, the good things that come out of the struggle is that clarity.

Ayn 22:58

When it's, when it's productive, struggle, it's, it's good, right? There are good outcomes when it's productive struggle. If it goes a little bit beyond what the person is actually capable of and it becomes unproductive struggle, or if, if the person ceases to believe in their own ability to do it, they don't have the, the right supports in place, even if they can do it, but they don't have like, the scaffolding to help them get to that place. Mm-hmm. Then it's not, it's not gonna have the same positive.

Debby 23:32

So as a leader and you're observing, if you feel like it's become unproductive struggle, is that one of those situations where it's like, okay, I need to step in. That's, that would be one of those. Okay. I need, I don't need to hang back. I need to step in.

Ayn 23:46

Yes. And sometimes we talk about doing the work. Shoulder to shoulder or at arms length, and sometimes I've gotta come in and be shoulder to shoulder. If I'm doing the work alongside you, then it's more likely that I'm gonna be there to, to be able to support. Mm-hmm. I still want it to be in that spirit of collaboration and empowerment where it's, we are working side by side and. Here, let me tell you what you did wrong and how to fix it or move, let me do it. None of that helps anybody. Mm-hmm. But it's harder and it takes more time. But if we're sitting side by side and we're working on it together, then I can help that person in, in the places where they're struggling. Yeah, I like that. I

Debby 24:41

like that. Sometimes you're shoulder to shoulder and sometimes you're, you're, you're still there, but you're just maybe an arm length.

Kevin 24:47

Yeah. During that answer, you, you said something that kind of sparked some curiosity in me. You said when a person is struggling if their outlook or their perspective is hopeful or positive, can you say more about that as a person is struggling?

Ayn 25:04

Yeah, because sometimes like from from outside, from our perspective, we can see that this person is capable of doing this work, but from the inside, If the person doesn't believe it, then they're not gonna be able to access the skills that they have, that they really do have. They really could do that work, but if they can't, if they don't believe in themselves, then they're not gonna be able to access their actual skills to do the work. Does that make sense?

Kevin 25:34

Yes, it does make sense because I think an element related to this is, is that confidence. Right. Having that confidence, because one of the things that I know is when you come through a struggle, that is actually how you build confidence. Right? And that's such a critical element to people being able to, like you said, access their knowledge and skills is feeling confident. My sons played played basketball and one of them had a. And his coach would ask him to play as hard as they could for three minutes, and then he would sub him out. And during the game, no matter what the score was, he says, I think we're gonna win. I think we're gonna win. When I put you in there goal play as hard as you can for three minutes. I'll sub you out. He was like, we're gonna win this game. We're gonna win this game. And you know what those boys thought no matter what the score was, they thought they were gonna. Because their coach was saying, I think we're gonna can win this game, and that team won games that they shouldn't have won. But they were confident when they went in there that they knew all they had to do was play as hard as they could for three minutes and then he would sub'em out and that's what he did. And they would come back. They didn't always come back and win. But you know what? Even when they lost, they walked away feeling good about their effort. And I was. That was kind of masterful to see him do that. And so I tried to start to adopt that and frame that. Like, just do, you know, just do whatever you can and I think we're gonna, I think this thing is gonna work out. And just being optimistic. and then when they got into really tough situations, they were like, I think we can win again if we do these things for the next. And I was like, that was, I was like, okay, that's, I see how that works. Yeah,

Ayn 27:28

I love that.

Kevin 27:29

So Anne, I'm sure I could come up with many more questions to ask you tonight. We're gonna have to start to bring this to a close. So we have three questions that we ask all of our guests. They're not meant to be hard, but sometimes they can be a little tricky. But we're curious to know what your answers are. So the first one is, what is a book that you think a leader coach should read?

Ayn 27:54

You know, this one, this one is easy because I was just talking with someone today in a great big meeting. Somebody put a quote up from this book and I, and it prompted me to pull it down off of my shelf. Are you familiar with the, with the Stockdale paradox? I am not, the Stockdale paradox is really a lot like what you were just describing with that basketball coach. You have to maintain your undying optimism that we are going to, we are gonna win this game, right? You have to maintain that even in the face of knowing the stark reality of where we actually. You, you can't be fully and blindly optimistic, and you can't be fully and deeply whoa, pessimistic, right? Either one of those doesn't, doesn't make it somewhere in the middle. Is this place where you hold both of those truths. A belief in the, in our, your ability to overcome at the same time as you're staring down the, you know, the, the stark reality of where you actually are., I heard about it today, you know, refreshed my memory in this meeting, but I learned about it in the book. Good to. By Jim Collins. Mm-hmm. Which I think a lot of people have, have probably read. But what I love about that book is that it's it's concise, it's ins inspir, inspiring, and it gives lots of practical ideas about how to, how to lead.

Kevin 29:40

Thank you. You're welcome. It's one of the, to me, that book is one of the books. Everyone should have, should have read by Nell, right? Yeah. Yeah. But some of us have not, so this is our opportunity to take it on that recommendation. Yeah. What question have you been asked that gave you pause or made you think a little deeper or differently?

Ayn 30:07

The person on my team that I was just talking about has this uncanny knack the question. It's not one question. It's not I can't tell you what the question is. I can tell you. The intention behind the question, his goal is always to loop the learner in to the learning build agency in the, in all of the people in the room, so that we are not doing a thing to the students, but we are all figuring. What do we need to learn next? Where are we? what have we accomplished and where do we go from here? So the, the question that always gets me, and I'm getting better at doing, at, you know, asking the question myself, but the question we're planning a pd, we're planning professional development for a group of teachers, and, and will say, What will the teachers think they need to work on next? Instead of me doing all the thinking, let's, let's all come together and sit at the table and figure out what, what we all are gonna do together.

Kevin 31:24

Very interesting. Yeah.

Debby 31:26

I think you get to empathy too, right? Like put yourself in in their shoes. Yeah. I like.

Ayn 31:32

Yeah.

Kevin 31:32

Yeah. I was thinking about this whole concept. We always know what other people need. Right. Which means somebody else knows what I need. Right? That's right. That's the, you know, that's the, the paradox of that kind of thinking. Right?

Ayn 31:48

Yep.

Kevin 31:50

The final question is besides struggle, what is your word on coaching?

Ayn 31:56

Well, I was thinking about this and I, and the word that comes to mind first is listen, and that's already in the word on coaching. Mm-hmm. And it's an important one to me. It's important enough that I've turned, there's a sticky note here on the computer. So, My word is wait, which is actually an acronym, so it's cheating. I've got four words. Wait. Stands for? Why am I talking? So it's about listening and this is in your book too, but this is one of my favorite ideas and it's such a simple thing that I can remind myself of in those moments when I'm so eager to jump in and say the next thing. And I can just hold my hand with the four fingers and like remind myself, this is an acronym, why am I talking? And I just remind myself, wait, wait, listen, and wait. Thank you. I love that. Yeah. And what people

Debby 32:57

couldn't see is that you had your four fingers, but you kind of were tapping, right? Mm-hmm. Four fingers and tapping yourself. I love that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna give that as a tip to people. I've told the. But I'm gonna share the forefinger thing. I think that's awesome.

Ayn 33:11

Yeah. I had a teammate. we had a great big team, the two of us, and we were leading together and we would often find ourselves on opposite sides of a room with all of our people in the room. And it was our signal to each other. I would just hold up the, so I'm tapping myself right now with those four fingers, but it was often my signal to my partner. Wait, you talk. Wait, why am I talking? Yeah, and why

Debby 33:38

are you talking?

Ayn 33:39

Yes. That's awesome.

Kevin 33:42

Yeah. The crazy thing about it is as coaches sometimes we're talking because we're trying to do what? Rescue people from their struggle. Yeah. Not being able to come up with their own answer. We wanna provide that answer so we can go on and on about struggling. You know, I guess tonight, I wish everyone the best in your struggle. May it be productive, and when you do need help, please ask for help. Right? So, Anne, Debbie. It's always a pleasure to get together and talk about coaching and learning and leadership. Thank you to our audience for listening. Check out more of our word on coaching podcasts where you listen to podcasts. Please connect with us on Facebook. We are at Coaches three on Facebook, and we have a book, it's called The Word On Coaching, and we encourage you to go out and buy a copy of that book. We always encourage you to buy at least two copies of the book because you probably know someone who might enjoy reading it also. So buy a couple of copies, one for yourself and one for a friend. And until next time, that is the word on coaching. Ooh.