Season 7 Episode 3: The Word on Coaching -Difficult Conversations

In this episode, Coaches3 welcomes Cassia Carr to the podcast to share her insights about having difficult conversations.   
 
Cassia Carr is a civically-minded wife, mom, attorney, and amateur opera singer! Born and raised in Tulsa, OK, Cassia studied business and Spanish at local colleges - Tulsa Community College and Oral Roberts University. She began her career as a District Sales Leader at PepsiCo, leading a team of 25 salespersons in the Frito-Lay division. Later, she attended law school at the University of Tulsa College of Law and practiced bankruptcy, corporate governance, and litigation at two local law firms before joining the in-house legal team at the Williams Companies, Inc., a publicly-traded midstream company in Tulsa. 

Having a difficult conversation can be a stressor for many people. Cassia shares how you can use a candid and respectful approach to sharing unpleasant news.

She shares several engaging stories on her journey of giving and receiving difficult information.

Cassia is engaging and humorous, so be prepared to laugh and learn during this episode.
 
Contact information:
(1) Cassia Carr | LinkedIn 

 Books Recommended in this episode:
Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes are High, Third Edition: Grenny, Joseph, Patterson, Kerry, McMillan, Ron, Switzler, Al, Gregory, Emily: 9781260474183: Amazon.com: Books 

 
Check out our best-selling book The Word on Coaching.  Buy a copy for yourself and copies to share with others.
Amazon.com: The Word on Coaching: 9781737643807: Neely, Debby, Auger, Joann, Fuselier, Kevin: Books

Check out our  quick guide about powerful questions: "Embrace the Power of Questions!"   A Quick Reference Guide to Getting the Answers You Need.   

Transcript

Kevin 0:05

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the word on coaching podcasts. I'm Kevin and I'm here with Debbie and Joanne. We are coaches three, three friends with years of leadership and coaching experience who want to share our passion with others. Our podcasts are for leaders, whether you have the formal title or not, because we know a lot of You out there are leading without a title. We focus on one word that relates to leadership and coaching. We know leadership is hard. So we, along with our guests, give you tips, information, a fresh perspective, and always a lot of support. We got you today. We are excited to welcome Kashia Carr. Let me tell you a little bit about Kashia Carr. She is currently deputy mayor of the city of Tulsa. She has lots of years of corporate experience and she is a lawyer. So we'll have to be on our good manners today. Kashia, would you like to hear a little bit more about yourself and your role with our listeners?

Cassia 1:16

Yes, I am a lawyer and I've worked in lots of different legal jobs. As you will see, I started out after undergrad working for PepsiCo had a business undergrad. I got a great experience to be a district manager and you'll hear a little bit more about that. But about all the different jobs I've had, I always did things for my city. I love getting involved in civic life. I actually am a master recycler. I became a master recycler under Mayor Kathy Taylor. And this is before we're in the city of Tulsa here, this is before we had free recycling, you had to pay for a recycling bin and everything, and we've come a long ways with that, but love that kind of stuff, and so I met the mayor's wife in law school, told her that I love to do things for the city, so the mayor put me on a couple of volunteer commissions, there's lots of different ways, That our charter requires our city leadership to incorporate citizens and volunteer roles. And so I took on a couple of roles like that, but then when his deputy mayor took a different job, he reached out to me first. He's like, Hey, you've never done this as your actual job. Why don't you come check it out? So I know so much about the city. I, I'm not sure what I'm gonna do with all this knowledge when I wrap it up, but. I'm full of city information.

Kevin 2:30

That's awesome. Maybe we'll tease some of that out of you tonight for this episode. The word is. Difficult conversations, and as cash and I were talking, 1 of the things she told me 1 time was. Sometimes when there's hard things to be said or difficult conversations, people turn and they ask me to go do it. Kashia, you go talk to them. So from there, I said I think difficult conversations might be something that we could expand on because anyone who's been in leadership, any type of leadership role, know that sooner or later, you're going to have to have a difficult conversation. With someone. So that's going to be our word for tonight. And so we look forward to exploring that with you,

Cassia 3:19

Kasia. Yay.

Debby 3:21

Yeah, I love it. I think that's top three. What I hear leaders always say they struggle with is getting the courage to have those difficult conversations. So Kasia, in our first podcast of the season, the three of us chatted about some challenges that we're hearing leaders struggle with. And one of those challenges is exactly what we're talking about tonight, having this difficult conversation. So perfect timing, but let's start with how would you define a difficult conversation as a leader? What makes them different than a regular

Cassia 3:52

conversation? Well, a difficult conversation is delivering news to the listener that they don't want to hear. And so not fun and I think that it definitely when I'm thinking of a difficult conversation as a leader and I'm telling someone they don't want to hear it's about one of these things, their performance, their personality or their character. All those things are very sensitive topics. And so that's why we have to handle these conversations with care, but it's also why they're so important to have. And so that's what I think it is. So why do you think it's

Debby 4:27

important to have this conversations like what happens if we don't

Cassia 4:31

well, I think they're important because this is the way you improve and grow and that's how I've improved and grown, you know, I want my people that are reporting to me to meet their own personal goals and growth in the organization, but the organization has to meet their goals as well. And so I tell all the business students, I go talk to what are businesses and business to do make money. Now, of course, we can have difficult conversations at a nonprofit. What are they there to do? They're there to provide a service in several different types of areas, but those things also have to make benchmarks to make money. So the situation is what am I supposed to do? In that role. And if I can't talk to my direct reports about how they're not meeting those goals, then we're all going to suffer. I want to make sure that my people are ready to succeed. So it's my responsibility to be able to address. short. I

Debby 5:29

wish I had you when I was a new manager. Cash. I can remember being a new manager and just avoiding, avoiding, avoiding until the pain point got so much that I can't avoid it anymore. Right?

Cassia 5:44

Well, I really think that if you don't have the difficult conversations, there's one, one of two or three things that's going to happen for that person that does not hear the feedback that they need. They, they may just be fizzled out and this is, this seems to be kind of common. I, when I was an associate attorney. You know, there's lots of different people that give you work and a new attorney needs to have lots of work. So, if their work is below par, no 1 feels like addressing it. They just stop getting work. And all of a sudden, 1 day, you either leave. Because, you know, you're not, you're not growing, or maybe you were actually told to leave. So, you get fizzled out, you're told to leave, or, you know, what, maybe. You're in a company that they can kind of have someone be there who's not performing their best, but you're not getting all of those new promotions. You're not getting new opportunities and you are going to not be happy. And so 1 of those things is going to happen if someone doesn't tell you what you need to hear. I was thinking about

Kevin 6:44

what you just said about telling people what they need to hear. I think it was from one of the authors of Crucial Conversations. They said, if your best friend knew something that would help you, would you want them to tell you? And of course everyone says, yes, yes, yes, but then why is it so difficult to hear helpful information from other people? Why do you not want it from anyone else? But your best friend could tell you, you'd want them to tell you. You'd probably be even mad if they didn't tell you what could improve your performance, your personality or how you're, you know, slacking on your character. So I think it's so important for someone to have the courage to step into those.

Cassia 7:25

Absolutely. And Kevin, you just took my book, it's my favorite book. You, you, you took it point that out.

JoAnn 7:33

You can repeat it. You can repeat it. You know I, as a young leader, and even as an older leader now, I really still struggle with hard conversations. And so this has always been an interesting topic to me. And what I used to think is I would coach people how to have difficult conversations knowing that I wasn't even having them. It's like, what a hypocrite you are.

Cassia 8:02

And

JoAnn 8:03

but, but why do you think that leaders especially find it so hard to have those difficult conversations?

Cassia 8:13

Well, I think number 1 is most people want to avoid conflict. They don't like conflict. People are afraid of what the listener's reaction is going to be, right? I think it's in our brains, is in the same area that make people afraid possibly to speak, do public speaking. You know, you're afraid to do public speaking because you're afraid of what the people are going to think about you. And it's around it's it's that same part of our brains. I'm I know nothing about brains, but I'm just saying it appears to be the same part of our brains. And so, yeah. Such conflict avoiding conflict, because you just think the person's going to get really upset. I also think that leaders don't have the conversations because maybe they. Have already sort of written off the direct report. They don't think that they're going to listen and they don't think they're going to improve. So they've somewhat given up a bit and so since they've kind of given up there, they go ahead and give into the other concern avoiding conflict afraid of the reaction. I definitely

JoAnn 9:13

agree with the just, you know, people in general. We just don't like conflict, especially if you're in a leadership position. I know for me. One of my barriers, and I'm going to ask you to think about some more barriers, but one of my barriers would always be is my, my thinking like, well, you're not perfect, you know, you really got some things you need to be working on. And who are you to go tell this person, they better shape up or ship out, you know, so. So what are some other barriers that maybe you found for yourself or that you've seen in leaders, especially those leaders who come up and say, Hey, will

Cassia 9:53

you go have this conversation for me? Yeah. What, what's keeping them from doing that? Well, another one is that, I mean, I think people like to be liked. Right. Maybe not everybody cares, but I think most people like to be liked. And I think since we like to be like, we think that if all of our direct reports kind of want to be our friend. Then, then maybe we're going to get the most out of individuals. That is, I would say that's clearly not the case. I don't think it's out of that's even a very good idea. I really think a lot of it's that now, of course, when I come across some people that are just introverts. Introverts versus extrovert, it could be just that an introvert in general maybe doesn't want to have a lot of interaction with other people. So that's hard for them to do that. Now on the flip side, if I, if I run across someone who doesn't love conflict, well, that's kind of a problem too. I've met a few of those people no, I don't like that either. So and I think it's good. I think it's important for us to want to care about people's feelings. And that's that would be another 1 and that's 1 definitely I've had and and even recently knowing that these things I'm going to say are going to hurt someone. And I don't, I don't want to hurt people, especially people that are, I feel are already vulnerable. And, of course, like you just said, we all know work is hard. I also, it's difficult to have the conversation when Maybe you're not 100 percent bought into what your boss is saying is the problem with this individual. That's difficult. Now we all come into those things. We're not all the CEO of the company, but we have a boss. And if boss is saying, Hey, so and so is not meeting this goal. Maybe you don't agree with the goal. Maybe you think the sales goal is too high. That's hard. And we're not all as middle managers going to be able to avoid that. And so that, that is definitely a difficult one to deliver information that you're not a hundred percent. Yeah. And

Debby 11:46

you, you addressed one of my myths when I was new. I thought, Hey, my team, I'm supposed to make my team like me. Like, that's part of what I'm supposed to do as a leader. And I actually had a mentor pull me aside and she said, you know, if your team likes you. All the time, then you're probably not doing your job. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, okay. Because I'm not having a tough conversations are making the tough decisions.

Cassia 12:12

Right. One thing I found is a in house attorney. If, if everybody thinks you're great. Like all your clients. She's the best. Wow. You're probably telling them yes to everything that they're wanting. You know maybe, maybe not. Maybe you're coming up with creative solutions. Let's just say that. But but yeah. And all these reasons are difficult and I don't think they're. I'm sure that there's no leader that gets a ride every single time, but I think it's really important even just to kind of line out. How am I feeling about this discussion? Why do I not want to go into it? Because of all the reasons we've said, it's going to be different for each person. Why we're nervous about it. Yeah,

Debby 12:50

and we do just want to put a disclaimer that we're not telling people to go. Say shape up or ship out,

Cassia 12:57

shape up or ship out. That's, that's going to be towards the very end. When I've coached them, I've done the whole nine month process. I'm like, this is your last stretch,

JoAnn 13:08

Debbie. That's what I'm calling cash on saying now. Debbie says I can't say shape up or shape out, but

Cassia 13:14

what can I say here? There's one okay, so my first job was at PepsiCo and I was 22 years old. I was a baby. Baby! Now that I'm 37, I'm like, 22 year olds shouldn't be leading nobody. But I'm just kidding. Anyways, and so, I, my boss was teaching me, you know, when you have to let someone go, there's three different reactions generally. It's either the sadness, the crying the the blank stare, or the anger. And but at Pepsi, there was a very long specific process to coach someone to success or coach them out. And you had to, I mean, I appreciated that very defined. So by the time I got to the end of this one individual and I told him, I said, Hey, you got a great job, you know, you're making 65, 000 a year, no college degree. All you gotta do is deliver these chips and follow some of these rules. And I'm telling you, man, if you don't start rotating your chips. putting the older, the ne Because there's a date on them and they'll stale out. I said, if you don't start doing that, you are going to lose your job. I mean it, man. And it was the last step. I had done all the work with all the things. I had to let him go. Then the next two months, I had to let him go. And I saw him, I was like, okay, you know, you know, this is it. And he was just blank stare, just looked at me. I'm like, you understand what I'm saying? No reaction. I was like, it's too bad, but I feel good. I tried my absolute best.

Kevin 14:44

Hey, word to the wise, rotate your chips.

Cassia 14:49

When you go to a store, you got a Walmart, you better check and make sure they're rotating those chips. You know, shape up or ship out.

Kevin 14:56

As you were talking about this, I'm thinking about People have to be equipped to have these conversations. So I'm just curious, what have you done, Kashia, over your career to equip yourself to overcome these barriers and have the courage to have those difficult

Cassia 15:13

conversations? Well, let me tell you another story. I'm still on PepsiCo. This is a long time ago, but it was a very foundational. Shaping point in my professional career. So I started out for a whole year. I had to go and train on all the different ways we get the chips to the market. There's lots of different ways. There's several different routes. I had to run them all. It was very tiring. I knew the rules. I was doing most of them, but not all of them. Towards the end of it, I was very tired. It was hot. And my boss was supposed to come out, look at all my stores. And then say, Hey, you did a good job, bring the VPN and certify me as a manager. So he comes out, we go to my stores at the end of the day. He said, Kashia, I'm really disappointed. He said, if you had been a manager and you would have went and saw your stores, you probably would be giving a letter, which is a behavioral letter at this point. And when he said that I was so weary. I'm so tired when he said that it just clicked in my brain. I'm thinking of all the different things that I know I should have done that I didn't do. It's like I thought the other good things would make up for that. And so I said, I'm so sorry, Mark. I'm so sorry. So he leaves. Now, usually it would take me a week to go to every store. I get up the next day at 6 a. m. I had enough product chips to do this. I go to every single store in one day to fix everything. And I fixed it all. Midnight, I send him a text. I said, listen, I went to every single store and I fixed it. I'm ready to show you again whenever you're ready. He goes, I'm ready right now. That's the kind of boss he was. So he comes out, we hit every store. At the end of the day, he goes, Kasia, I'm so proud. I'm calling the vice president right now. He's coming down here to certify you next week. Good job. Thank you for listening to me. And I always think of that story because it showed me how important taking critical feedback well was. And how he delivered it, he got straight to the point, listen, you messed up, you know, what are we going to do? And I fixed it and I was, I was rewarded for that. And so that really has given me the courage when I'm over people to talk to them because I want them also to succeed. I don't want to be the one that keeps them from having this information. So they get fizzled out. Because that would have, that's what happens. I mean, my boss would not, if he would have not told me those things and brought the vice president down to go through the motions, he would have gotten in trouble. And so anyways, just, I go back to that story all the time and I think about that before I'm going to have a conversation and and then I, I deliver that with the idea that I'm here to help you improve. And I think one thing that was important about my boss, Mark, was that he was the kind of person that would never tell me to do something that he wouldn't do. He was out there with us all the time. Throwing chips is difficult, and the holidays were intense, and he was always there. So he had that built up, that relationship built up with me, so that when he had that difficult thing to tell me. I wasn't offended. I heard him. That's another thing I'm thinking when I'm leading people, I need them to know I'm on their side. Taking the time to build that relationships that when I have to have this conversation, they're ready to hear it is a is helpful. Of course, sometimes we come into a situation and maybe we're new and there's a problem right off the bat. I would still encourage someone. See if you can take some time to develop that relationship. So they take that take that conversation better.

JoAnn 18:38

That's a great story. That's great. And so true. And I'm so impressed with your boss as well with you because sometimes. Getting that kind of feedback because you were focused on, I'm going to be, this is my next level up, you know, and that's what you were expecting and not to hear that. You could have responded in a lot of different ways, but I, I'm so glad to hear because what I heard your boss, he had built a relationship with you. Right. And he would tell you straight up. There was no dancing around the issue, but you knew he was in your corner. I mean, how many leaders would say, like, hey, I'm on my way. You got it fixed. I will come do this right now. That's very impressive.

Cassia 19:20

That's very impressive. Yeah, he was an impressive boss. Leader boss sounds like a derogatory term.

Kevin 19:26

Kesha, what you just what you just said is really important. I don't think many people have had it modeled to them. What? Having it. A good, difficult conversation really looks like. Most people have not experienced in a way where it's positive. It's effective. Some people, I can't generalize too much, but I think some people struggle because they've never really been involved in a good conversation, so they really don't have a mental model for what they should do in that situation. But I think you just kind of outline some of the things that are important to be able to have the message, deliver the message, respond to the message and then. To be rewarded or for your boss to actually follow through on what they said they were going to do before. So I think that's important.

Cassia 20:15

I had another situation. Can I tell that now? I had another situation where later on in my career as an attorney, that I had a performance review that didn't go the way I expected. So I was somewhat blindsided. And I don't want to blame that on anybody who knows. You're so, as a new attorney, and it's just a really tough. And so as I'm hearing the feedback that I wasn't expecting, I was getting, I was getting upset. You got the heat going on in your chest, sweating, right? You're all of a sudden thinking about the future. Am I going to get fired? Like you go all the way, right? And so I said to the person giving me the information, I said, okay, I'm a little upset. So can I take some time to go back into my office and think about what you've said? And then we can continue this conversation later when I have, I kind of had a pin a moment. And thankfully he said yes, so I left, got on my computer, wrote out the different points that he said that I needed to improve on. Went ahead and wrote out the things he said I did well, so I could hear that. Wrote the things I did not well, and then I put an outline of the three different points that I'm going to do to correct those three things and how I'm going to get there. And I gave myself a timeline. I said I'm going to check in with you here, here, here, and here. And so I sent that email to him. And I think I copied maybe anyone who was involved if it was someone's work I was doing and and he responded to me and said, I've never had a new attorney do this before. I'm really impressed at the initiative that you're taking. And moreover, I gave it was about a 2 month thing. I, I hit every single point. And my next performance review was a great performance review. And so, from that, that I kind of created on the spot, I've told that to some of my when I have new direct reports, I tell them, I say, listen, if we come to a time where we have to have a conversation, hopefully you're not blindsided. Because if you are, I think I've probably done something wrong and I, I, I should have hit it earlier. I was like, but you know, if you need to take time to think. And re regroup later. That's totally fine. And I think it's a good idea because we don't want to say things in the moment that we regret. And so yeah, so I would I would share that with others that don't want to do it. Give that option to the people you're talking to, and that really could calm them down. I love that because I think you

Debby 22:38

talked before about the emotions that kick in when a lot of times when we're in these conversations and I feel like what you just talked about is. Finding a way to kind of normalize it like this is information now you decide what you're going to do with it versus. You know, you're a horrible person and something's being

Cassia 22:55

yeah, you're attacking me. Yeah.

Debby 22:57

And, and to me, I think I also like we've been talking about giving the difficult conversation. I think it is important to think about receiving beyond the receiving end of a difficult conversation, which, you know, you shared two really great examples of that people notice that to how do you recover? What do you do next? That says a lot about you and your character. And then as a leader, I would be like, okay, Cash is someone I got my eye on because I just saw how she handled that and what she did with that. And also she took my feedback and did something with it instead of she took my feedback and just got mad and left or never fixed anything. So I think there's like that two sides in your stories of, you know, the great example of giving it, but also the great example of receiving those difficult conversations on the other side. Absolutely.

Cassia 23:48

And sometimes I've had with some of my direct reports. When I may be talking to to a leader that's above me, and they have interpreted something that my reports have done in a negative way. And there's been times where I'm kind of, I don't want to say defending, but I'm kind of correcting maybe some misinformation, or they don't have the full story. And so, having those relationships with your people and speaking to someone. That's higher is also an important skill to have. I mean, your, your, your people are, they need you to do that to champion them. And so I definitely think if your people really think that that's what you're going to do, you're going to, to really support them to others. I think they're going to be even more open to hear how they can improve and, and the information that you have to help them get to the next level. I love that. I feel like

Debby 24:39

you've already given us some really good nuggets of advice for people. Is there anything else you would add if the, if the 37 year old Kashia was talking to 22 year old Kashia, what, what advice would you give her?

Cassia 24:52

Well I mean, I would still tell her, even though I think I did an okay job to listen, really take time when you get to a new place, especially if you get to a new place and you are over people, like you really need to just calm down, spend time with them, go out with them, watch them work before you give any kind of feedback, advice. Question anything they're doing because just thinking of 22 year old, you're just so young. And I know that the that's program you get out of undergrad. We want these people to work, but it 22 year old. And so I, I would tell myself just to give it time. And let them see you as a, as a champion, as a helper. And then as you develop that relationship, you're going to be able to, to give them the, whatever the marketing goal for the company or whatever needs to be given to them, and there'll be a lot more willing to do it. Great,

JoAnn 25:56

great advice. if I came to you and say, Kashia, you know, what is one thing, or what knowledge would you pass along to me or skill you would say, Joanne, focus on this, then take the next step. What would be that one piece of knowledge or that one skill that

Cassia 26:14

you would recommend? Hey, when it comes to a difficult conversation well, I would definitely I don't think we've mentioned this before. I would say to really focus on the, the results. Of of where they're falling short on the results. Because there can be several different ways to get to an end goal. And maybe you want to make sure that you're not trying to over manage them, like, you think that there's some little thing that they're doing, and then they're never going to be able to get to the results. So I just would want to share with them. Okay. This is what you're this is where you're supposed to be getting. Here's the metric. And you haven't met the metric. Let's say that your name is I'm talking to someone named Sarah. So, Sarah, what ideas do you have to get to that metric rather than me saying, hey, Sarah, I kind of see you coming in at 9 o'clock. Everybody else gets here at 8, you know, that might not be the reason she's not making it. And so I think it can be easy to say, hey, you're not doing it the way that I would do it. So that's probably why you're not hitting it. I want the person I'm talking to, to come to the conclusion themselves. I've had a conversation with someone where, and this can be difficult, where it's really if the personality. That isn't coming off well to to others that she works with. And so I would say, okay, well, has anyone in the past ever said to you. That sometimes you come off a little aggressive. Has anyone ever said that to you? Well yeah, someone said that to me before. Look, okay. So why do you think, why do you think they're saying that? And this individual is like, you know, I think it's just because I'm a really expressive person and they're taking it wrong. That's possibly true. So I'm like, okay, well let's talk a little bit more about that. What things that you're doing that are making people think that, you know, and for this specific individual, as I was talking to it like that, just like, hey, here's the, here's what, what we're seeing. I kind of was able to flesh out that I think that sometimes we are misinterpreting. What's going on and that's unfortunate, but okay, so then we start talking about what are some different ways. Maybe you could even though you're not meaning what how they're taking it. How are some of the ways maybe we can soften. The way that you're reacting, so people actually will respond to you better because at the end of the day, we want everyone to be able. We want everyone to be able to work well for the company work well together. So once again, let me just. Talk, said a lot of things, try to focus on what is the thing that they're not doing, what's the goal they're not hitting, and then help them to give them this space to tell you why they're not getting there and what and what ideas they have to get there, rather than trying to control the process of how they get there.

Debby 28:52

That's

JoAnn 28:53

great. Focus on the right thing, the right issue, right? That's excellent. I heard some great coaching questions in there. So made me smile. So yeah, the open

Cassia 29:03

ended questions. Yeah, I like that chapter. I told Kevin that that was one of my favorite chapters and that I I've done some of those things without knowing what it was. And I feel like I've had those things done to me without, I'm like, Oh, that person was doing that thing.

Debby 29:18

if you don't, if you don't mind is, so what about the really sensitive topics when you have to have a difficult conversation and it is very personal, like. I once had to have a conversation with a woman who I worked with because she just wore really short skirts and it was really inappropriate. Or I had to leave the other day. Tell me that he needed to have a conversation with someone who just wore way too much perfume and it was bothering the rest of the team. How do you handle those kind of personal sensitive topics when you have to have a difficult

Cassia 29:49

conversation? Well, I definitely think the best. It's always best when someone comes in to get to get straight to the point. And I was have this for the end, but I listened to and I'm friends with Tracy Spears, who's a motivational speaker to different businesses. And she always says this go straight to the heart of why we're here. So if I had to tell someone it was their perfume, I mean, right. When they walked in, I was like, Hey, you know, Sarah, we're going to talk about your perfume. People think it's too, it's too much. Is there a way you can stop wearing so much perfume? Now the person is not, she's not going to like it. She's going to be a little upset. There's really no way to avoid that. It's kind of like, there's no way to tell someone you want to break up with them in a good way. Like, I mean, it's going to hurt regardless, but you get straight to the, you get straight to the point, you let them take a moment. To not be happy about it, and then you let them ask some questions. They're probably going to have a little bit of pushback. Well, you know what? So and so wears a lot of perfume and let's talk about, let's talk, make sure we're being fair with everybody, but, but I think that, and I would make sure that they knew, I don't, I was, I've been telling this to my child because she's getting to this point where she likes to be like, Hey, so I heard you got a divorce. What happened and would just say this when we're supposed to be like, at the pizza parlor, you know, having fun. So I said to her 1 time, I said, okay, when you want to talk to somebody about something sensitive, how do we know it's sensitive when you think about it, something on the inside, kind of. You know, you say to them, can I talk to you about something difficult? Are you ready? And they may say yes or no. I was like, if they say no, now, our, our director boards can't tell us no. For her, I said, if they say no, then don't ask it. I was like, but like, say, if they say yes, okay, make sure we're, we're quiet. It's just the two of us. Right. I mean, I'll have to say that to any of you. We're in our office. It's closed door. No one else has to know. I'm not talking about it. And honestly, do not talk about it with a bunch of people. Bad idea. I know that for humans, we like to, we run our mouths. Don't tell anybody else except the boss that told you to tell her. So I would want to let them know, I need to talk to you about something that is a little difficult. Can you come in here and I don't want to say, I don't want to say, I don't want to tell you on Monday. I want to talk to you Friday at 3. That's also rude. I need to talk to you about something difficult. I would have looked on our schedule and make sure that she's here. Can you come on up? I mean, we're going to do this quick because you're going to be sitting there thinking, what is it? But I want them to come into my office thinking you may not like what I'm going to have. I'm going to say to you because I want to be like that. And you straight up say it, let her be upset. And then we want to move in a line. I had a conversation with one of my direct reports once. And I knew that it was going to make her upset just because she's sensitive and she started crying and I said, that's okay. I'm sorry I'm crying. I was like, it's okay that you're crying. It's okay. I was like, this is not, this is nobody wants to be told that they're doing something wrong. I understand. I don't like it either. So she's crying. Okay. Let her, let her get tissue. She didn't need to leave. She just want to be upset. All right. Okay. I was like, do you understand what, what you need to do differently? Do you need any, do you need any training on this? No, I understand. Okay, great. I told Kevin this the next day, I actually brought her something. I brought her, I brought her a Starbucks gift card. I said, listen, I really appreciate how well you took the conversation that we had. I really appreciate the work that you do. And, and I'm happy that you're, you're able to fix this one, this administrative thing. And I appreciate you. I don't know if you should give everybody a card, but I think you have to use our emotional intelligence on that. But but I felt like it was right for her. Everybody's different. And at the end of the day, I kind of want everybody to sort of do their work. And it's just gonna help you do

Kevin 33:29

it. Rotate your chips. Rotate your chips. That's what I'm

Cassia 33:33

telling you, man. 5, 000 a year job. Benefits. 6 percent 401k match on ping. Anyways, I don't know if I answered your, I don't know if I answered your question, Debbie. You did, you did. Well,

Kevin 33:48

Kashia, we could probably talk to you for another couple of hours, but we're going to have to start wrapping it up a little bit. Before we let you go today, we have three questions that we ask all of our guests. What is a book that you believe a leader coach should read?

Cassia 34:04

Okay. Well, definitely Crucial Conversations. I bought this book for people. I love this book because the goal is focus on the facts. Okay, the one example that give that I love that you look on your credit card statement and you see a hotel on there that you didn't go to it with your husband. You don't know what this is. Instead of saying, Oh my gosh, he's cheating. You don't go to him and be like, Hey, listen, cheating on me with so and so I saw you talking to her at the, at the company party. You don't do it like that. You say, Hey, honey, I see this hotel charge. What is this? And you let them answer. Start with the facts. I love that. I think it's really helpful. And so, there's so many other great things in that book. So Crucial Conversations is the book.

Kevin 34:44

Good deal. I think we all ascribe to Crucial Conversations as a must read for anyone in leadership. Or pretty much anyone in life. Yes. The next question is, what is a question that you've been asked that gave you pause or made you think a little deeper or differently?

Cassia 35:03

Well, when it comes to coaching, the question was, do you actually want this person to succeed? Because. Especially if you're not doing your conversations early on or maybe, hey, we don't get to pick who's in our team. Maybe someone rubs you the wrong way, don't get along. Sometimes we really don't want them to succeed. We're actually ready for them to go. And if you're ready for them to go, that conversation is not going to go very well, because they're going to totally feel that. And so I, someone asked me that and inside, I was like, Ooh, I don't think I do. So I need to take a break. I either need to to change that about my, myself, take the emotions out of it. This is, this is the person that's here. We want to help this person work for this organization. It's not fun to find other people. So yeah, that made me stop. And Take a break and regroup. That's a pretty good

Kevin 35:51

question. So the final question is what is your word on coaching?

Cassia 35:58

Okay. My word on coaching is release. And, and what I mean by release is sometimes you need to let a project go. You, you're working for a company to make them money. However, they're doing it. you get these projects. And sometimes we tend to put a lot of emotion into things, and we're holding on to stuff like it's our baby. If your boss is no longer interested in it, your boss's boss is no longer interested in it, let it go. I saw a friend get fired for this. And I told him multiple times, I don't think that you're, you need to check in with your boss. I don't think they're interested in this transaction anymore. And some, because. Sometimes we gotta play defense mode. Our bosses are actually not communicating with us. Well, they're not doing that. They're avoiding the conversations and letting us fizzle out. Right. And so I told like, check back, check back, check back. And he didn't and they let him go. So I would say check back with if you feel like all of a sudden boss or boss's boss is no longer asking you questions about this. You're getting a sense that they're not loving it. Check in. Hey. I'm here for you. I'm here to make that to meet the company's goals. Is this still a priority? Okay, let them tell you. Actually, it's not. I appreciate you coming in here and talking about it. Let's redirect that energy over here and we'll come back to that later. Release. Let it go. It's not your baby. Unless you're the CEO or it's your, your entrepreneur, you work for somebody else. So let it go.

Kevin 37:24

Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, Kasha, Joanne and Debbie, it's been a pleasure. And we want to let you know, really enjoy. Talking to you tonight and we look forward to catching up with you again, maybe sometime later. We want to thank our audience for listening in. We would encourage you to check out more of our podcasts and leave us some comments. Let us know what you think about our podcasts. You can also connect with us on Facebook at coaches three. So check out our Facebook page and of course, go buy as many copies of the word on coaching. You can afford and

Cassia 38:08

Spread'em around.

Kevin 38:11

Seriously. buy a copy for yourself, and then maybe for a friend or someone who could benefit from becoming a better leader coach. Yeah. And. That is the word on coaching.

Cassia 38:23

Bye!