In this episode Coaches3 and our guest, Mike Todd, talks about the connection between coaching and learning. We also explore how leaders can support learning on their teams and themselves with coaching. Mike is an experienced coach and facilitator who owns Learning Unlimited Corporation.
Thank you for listening to The Word on Coaching! If you liked this episode, check out another episode!
In this episode Coaches3 and our guest, Mike Todd, talks about the connection between coaching and learning. We also explore how leaders can support learning on their teams and themselves with coaching. Mike is an experienced coach and facilitator who owns Learning Unlimited Corporation.
Thank you for listening to The Word on Coaching! If you liked this episode, check out another episode!
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the word on coaching podcast on Kevin fusilier and I'm here with Debbie and JoAnn. We are coaches three, three friends with years of leadership and coaching experience who want to share our passion with others. Our podcasts are for leaders, whether you have a formal title or not, and it focuses on one word that relates to leadership and coaching. We along with our guests, give you tips information, sometimes a fresh perspective and always a lot of support because we know leadership is hard tonight. We are excited to have Mike Todd from learning unlimited as our guests. Mike is a time friend of mine and the owner of learning unlimited a premier training and organizational development consulting firm in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Mike came to mind when I thought about our podcast guests coming up, because he has dedicated the last several years to refining his coaching approach and supporting leaders on their paths to getting better. So Mike, tell the audience a little bit about yourself.
Mike:Okay, well, you already mentioned Tulsa. So I got to give another shout out to Tulsa, Oklahoma. I've I've spent my entire life here and I absolutely love this place almost a half a century now. And I've got a young family that I'm. Challenged by and amazed by every single day six kiddos, my wife and I have our hands more than full with first grade all the way through college, five girls, one boy. And that that's a, a delight and a pain in the backside every single day, but I wouldn't trade it for anything. And then there's this wonderful organization that I'm part of learning unlimited corporation. That my mom actually co-founded with another gentleman who's known in the circles of training and development is really one of the masters of experiential learning. And that is Sam Sykes. So that's me in a nutshell. And yeah.
Kevin:Well, tell us how you got into coaching, Mike.
Mike:Excellent. Well long story short, I was upside down in being able to manage this business years ago when it was growing. And I was a new owner and we were adding staff left and right. And I recognize that quickly and therefore. A coach. In fact, I would tell you this I've hired a series of coaches that helped me really get through it, stretch, grow do the things I needed to do. And eventually I got to the point where I realized. I actually think I would enjoy doing this craft myself. I wonder what there is to it. And so, gosh, a good eight, nine years ago, I threw my hat in the ring and said, Hey, I'm going to go out there and start doing coaching myself instead of just selling it. And then instead of just supporting it through our organization and. Have been in learning mode ever since. So that's that's it, and that occupies a good chunk of my day to day, my week. Also do facilitation and things along those lines, but really that's how I got into coaching. And now there's no.
Kevin:Well, I've been coached by Mike and I can tell you he is excellent at coaching. So we always have a word for our podcast. And so we talked when I talked to Mike about being a guest, the word we came up with for today is learning. So the word on coaching for today is learning. And so Mike, we want to start off talking about. What are the connections you see between learning and coaching? Well, to
Mike:me learning is life and coaching really facilitates and enables learning. In fact, from my point of view, Coaching effective coaching, accelerates learning and leaders and individuals. So I think learning's always happening for all of us whether we're paying attention or not. And anybody that engages in the coaching practice knows from either being coached or coaching, that it really is. It's a process of accelerating, learning, and being more intentional about learning over a stretch.
Kevin:Yeah, I liked what you said about being intentional, because sometimes people are learning, but they're really not aware of their learning and they don't have it process for stopping to capture and really reflect on that learning. And so sometimes it gets lost because they just move on to the next thing, Debbie, Joanne, what do you have to say about connections between coaching and learning?
Debby:Well, first of all, I love that Mike said paying attention, because I think that's what a coach helps you do is pay attention to the learning and, and pull the. The learning out. I think I'm always amazed when I coach people that even if they're not a continuous learner part of coaching, it converts them into being that continuous learner, right. Where they're like, oh my gosh, I love the self discovery and the self, how my self-awareness is blowing up and how I'm learning, how to interact better with people. And I'm noticing things I didn't notice before. And so I think there's a huge connection between learning and coach.
Kevin:Thanks. Deb, what about you, Jay?
JoAnn:Well, you know, how do you learn? You learn by asking questions and what does a coach do? They ask questions? So I they're very much to be very interrelated and connected.
Kevin:Absolutely. Absolutely. And when you said questions, that's exactly what I was thinking about. Moving on to the next thing I'm thinking about Mike is how do you use coach? To help people learn
Mike:well, it's as you know, Kevin from experience for the way we do it, it's, it's always a bit of a process and there's a whole battery of exposing an individual or a leader to various various texts, various assessments sometimes interviews three sixties. I mean, it's, it's, it's a lot, including a lot of work on the front end of it. But. Really from my, you know, from my point of view, it's exposing a leader to these different things over time. And my job is just to listen intently and to hear them make sense of these different things. I always make it real clear that, Hey, you can accept any of this. You can reject any of this, but ultimately. Models, these concepts, these ideas, whatever is resonating with you right now is probably what you ought to listen to. And so that's really my job as a coach is just to expose and give this material to the client over time. And with. Presupposing what they need. And, and granted, I, I really have to know them well and already have a sense of what their struggles are. I reserve judgment in every session and just listen and listen and listen. And as you know, Kevin, I can shut up and listen for hours, honestly. I mean, I've been told that your silence makes me uncomfortable, so I literally will tell people on the front end, Hey, listen, I listen. So anyway, that's. For me. That's, that's how, that's how it works. Yes.
Kevin:Joanne, what about you? How do you use coaching to help people learn?
JoAnn:Well, Mike, well, Mike was talking, I thought of this analogy that I heard years ago from a coach. You know, there's, so I'm saying that you can meet her all water, a horse to water, but you can't make him. As a coach, your question becomes what will make him thirsty. And I see, oftentimes my role as a coach is how do I create a thirst in this person to learn and to create, and to know more about themselves, know more about whatever their skill or craft is.
Debby:Yeah, I think it's so funny when I, as soon as I think about how do I measure success as a coach, because the person is doing the work right. They're doing the hard work and it's their results. I'm there to support them. But when Mike said that someone tells him you're silenced, it's been comfortable. I'm like, yes, that's great. Like that's like gold for a coach, or when someone says, I never thought of that, or that's a great question, right? Those are my signs of the coaching is working and it's helping them dig a little deeper. And for me, that, what I noticed with people that coach have coaching really helps them learn. Is helping them see different perspectives instead of having that near and thinking where they're always looking at something the same way they always have, and, or they're only looking at these options instead of all the other choices and options that are out there where they're having a hard time, really getting clarity. I feel like those are the ways that coaching really helps people in that when they're in learning.
Kevin:Absolutely. I was thinking about when Mike said, assessments, sometimes you can get the assessment back, whether it's a 360 and interview or whatever, and it's really just data and information. But when you go through a coaching process, you start to take that data, that information. And hopefully get to a place of understanding and a coach can, as Debbie said, ask that question, that creates insight and you get an understanding. And then from having that understanding, you start to change your behavior and that's, you know what coaching is about. And to me, it's the learning. When you get the information and you start to change your behavior, that's when you start to reflect that you're actually learning. Because when I think about this my mom would say, you didn't learn your lesson. And that's because I did the same thing that I did last time. Even with more information that I have more information because of whatever feedback I'd gotten, but I did the same thing and she was like, son, you didn't learn your lesson. And so when I think about coaching, it's really helping people. Learn the lessons that are before them. And just like I said before, instead of just finishing the 360 and moving on and getting back to my job, when you have a coach that works, you works with you through that. You go from information to understanding, to behavior change. And to me, that's what coaching is all about is helping people apply what they've learned. Anything you wanna add Mike, as we continue to talk about using coaching to help people learn?
Mike:No, I, I think all of these points are excellent points and I absolutely love it. I mean learning is the most powerful force on earth if you ask me of course it's part of the, my company's names, so I better like it. And I just I love to be around other other learners, which. Yeah, that I'm in great company here. Love it. Nothing to add.
Kevin:So now we might get just a little tactical. This next question is how can leaders use coaching to support learning on their teams? And we really like to get sometimes down into the nitty gritty because we're supporting leaders who use a coaching approach, leaders who are coaches, leaders, who are experimenting with coaching. So how can leaders use coaching to support learning on their team?
Mike:You want me to take the first, first stab at that? Kevin,
Kevin:you can take the first step on Mike was sitting there listening to me and I could see him listening. You want to take a stab at it or anybody can jump in here on this one.
Mike:Why don't one of you, two ladies, give it a shot. I've got, I've always got a little something to say, but I'm I'm in learning mode myself right now.
Debby:Yeah. I felt like some of what I'm thinking is we've already mentioned a little bit, right? Asking questions. Don't just jump to telling people what to do or solving their problems for them. Asking them questions. We've talked about reflection and how important reflection is and how that is such a powerful part of the coaching process to do that for your team. Right. Make sure you're giving them those opportunities to stop and take your breath before they move on to the next thing and reflect on what they learned or, oh, you went to that class. How can you apply that knowledge to what you do every day? And helping them pull the little nuggets of wisdom out for themselves. And then a big one for me is make sure you're acknowledging people when you see progress when they're making a great contribution make sure that you're, you're telling them that you see them, that you notice.
Kevin:Yeah. It's about growth. You're right, Debbie, about it and acknowledging that growth. One thing I was thinking about one of the things that I attempted to do when I was in leadership was. Talk to my team about coaching, bring a problem solving model. If you think about different models for coaching, you assess where you are, where you need to be, and how do you get through that gap? And so I secretly was trying to create coaches on my team who could coach in my absence. So when I wasn't there. The kind of questions they would ask each other would be coaching type questions to resolve and solve problems in that was all about supporting their growth and development. So when they're in, you know, recognize they're in a learning mode, when they have a problem, they would be able to solve novel problems on the team, in my absence. And so to me, it's, I was trying to create an environment where you can ask good questions as long as you do. Focused on learning and growth and feedback. So that was one of the ways I tried to support learning on my team was to create an environment where everybody would be able to ask coaching questions, to solve the problems that come up in the course of a day.
JoAnn:Yeah, I agree with all of that. And you know, one thing I would encourage leader coaches to remember is that coaching is very empowering and sometimes we're pretty good as leaders to set expectations. And but oftentimes we don't. Power our folks to achieve those expectations. So using a coach approach allows that person to explore and, and, and, and, and as a coach creating a safe space for them to do that exploration. So I would just encourage any leader, you know, do set those expectations and then empower them through coaching. Okay.
Kevin:Anything you want to add Mr. Todd
Mike:it's it's to me, it goes back to listening and learning and knowing the individuals on your team. I'm in, I concur with everything that's been said. And in fact, I think effective leadership really is that one of the Gallup Q 12 questions, I believe has something to do with your boss and the relationship with your boss and the most engaged people in variably have a boss that knows that. Trust them invest in them, cares about them. And when that happens, you know, that's almost an unbreakable bond and you don't have to be best friends or anything, but it's almost sometimes leaders and managers forget how powerful it is to know the individuals on their team to take the time to do it and how ultimately that enables fabulous results. You said something that like sent me off into a completely different space in place. Kevin. Cause I started thinking about coaching within my family and my kids coaching each other. So that example, well you cited at work. I'm like, Hey, wait a minute. I need to do a better to my wife. And I need to do a better job of that in our family. Because if you can get it to that level, especially when they're younger, you know, they'll do some of that when they get older, but wow, wait a minute. That's brilliant. So I liked that application at home and.
Kevin:It absolutely applies. Where do you, you know, to get mad at where do people learn how to learn? You know, that's the first thing is learning how to learn by the questions that they get asked when they're children is one of the things I believe is how they learn, how to learn. And as we're talking about learning, one of the things I know that we've run into coaching in, in coaching is that there are some people who think they look to external factors are external people or external things to help them learn. And one of the things about coaching is about accountability. And I believe Joanne maybe mentioned a channel Billy earlier, but what strategies. Do you use to help people own their, their learning in a coaching engagement? So Debbie said, the coach, the person being coached is doing the work. How do you sustain that in a coaching relationship where you can see people, but they just want to, I just want you to tell him what to do. So how do you, how do you help people own their learning in a coaching game? Anybody can start with this one.
Mike:I, I think a lot of it is just knowing your client really well and knowing where they struggle, knowing what they do well, and. Much, like much, like you said, it's one of those. A lot of times people perceive coaching is you being the expert and you having the answers. And I not only resist that, I, I claim the relationship. Isn't going to be about that. You know, there'll be those times where perhaps I'll hold the mirror up and be more instructive or explicit, but it always comes back around to, well, what do you want to do? Or what do you think? You know, it really is in order for them to own it. You got to keep driving it back end that. Court and also to be adaptable related to whatever's going on in their life. Cause it's certain times your client has a more emotional load for whatever else is going on. And so they need to kind of maybe ease up a little bit on some of the commitments and stuff that they're making. But ultimately from my point of view, you know, the strategy is very much, what do you want to do with this? What do you want to do about it between now and the next time and letting them own it from there? Because I think. As a coach, we're overly prescriptive and we fall into that expert role that robs them as the, have the opportunity to learn. And, and that's not what coaching is about.
Debby:Yeah. I felt like it goes to the whole persistence and patience. Right? There's so many people, I think you shouldn't people out, they would call themselves coaches and there's so many different definitions of a coach, but I think it can be confusing when a leader. Is being coached or is trying to coach their people as to what does that really mean? And so having that patience to use the silence, like, like Mike said, right. To, even though you want to jump in so bad and ask a question, you know, be having that patients not to do that or that persistence. To not give in and give your opinion and, and stay on the track. You know, as Julian always talks about turn those skeptics into believers of, you know, of what coaching can do in their, in their lives, if they just trust the process and go with it. So my strategy is persistence and patience.
Kevin:Well,
JoAnn:I can't say that I have any strategy. I usually don't start any coaching relationship with strategy, which is not surprising to Debbie and Kevin. What I do believe is that to have someone owned their learning is to make sure that you're not trying to own it for them or to pass that ownership. And one of the most valuable lessons that I've learned when I was. A leader coach was that, you know, oftentimes I could see what this person needed to learn and I was trying to drive it there, you know, and I, when I learned to let go of that and realize that maybe that is a lesson that I need to learn or something they need to learn about, but let them discover what they need to learn because they're going to buy into it. Quicker. If, if they say, oh, you may not even learn this or I, that behavior, if I do this gets me this. So when I, when I learned to let go and let the person decide what the lesson, what they needed to learn and, and own it from where, from their point of view and not mine things became much easier for me.
Kevin:I completely agree when you were talking, I was thinking about I've been in different situations. Ultimately the, the person, I was the person on my team. That was my direct report that I was on a coaching situation with. Ultimately it was their decision on whether they would change their behavior, continue their behavior. And I, one of the things I tried to help them understand both positive and negatively. What are the consequences of you changing this behavior? Like some people, I was probably, we were, we were definitely in some performance counseling. We were kind of coaching through that process where they had to make some decisions on whether they really want to change and do these things, or it could potentially cost them their job on the other end of the spectrum, coaching with people who would have to make some decisions and learn some different things and change some behaviors. So they could be promoted or compete for the next opportunity. So, you know, if it's at both spectrum, those thinking, there's all types of learning that go on in the workplace. And in these leader, coaching engagements with you or with the people on your team, when you're working, helping someone work through something, it's kind of the same as they ultimately own it. I have people who could have been promoted if they had, if that's what they decided they wanted to do. And some did. And some didn't. Then I had some people decided they wanted to continue with their less than stellar work performance. And, you know, they had, they found different opportunities, but ultimately they're responsible for what they were doing. And as Dylan said, I couldn't own it. It got to a point where I couldn't own it for them. They had to decide how they want to move forward.
Debby:Owning it. Is that it, there could be. Failure. Right. They could make a mistake. There could be failure. So as a coach creating that safe environment, if that happens for them to get the learning from it, you know, the whole phrase failure is not an option. Yeah, it is. It's an option. It could happen. But how do you learn from it? How do you use that information to help you? So. The results that you're looking for.
Kevin:Yeah. That's good. As we continue on here, Debbie. Joanne, do you have any questions that you would like to ask my cabin, asking a lot of questions tonight? Maybe I'll practice some silence.
Debby:I have, I have a question for y'all y'all out there in Oklahoma. Hasn't had a question for you when we're talking to see if I, my West Virginia is coming out. So when we when we were talking about learning poaching it's not always an easy thing. You know, if people think, oh, I just have to listen and ask questions and there's some nuances to it and you're breaking, maybe breaking some habits and things like that. So I hear from leaders sometimes they're like, well, sometimes it's just easier not to coach. It's just easier to tell someone what to do or it's quicker. So, what is your advice for our leaders who are listening, who want to get better at coaching once a week to get into that growth mindset and that learning mode to be a better leader, coach, what is your, your advice for, for them?
Mike:I, I would say to whatever degree they consider themselves a listener. Set the bar up just a bit higher. And if you can really get into the mindset as a leader, when you're wanting to coach somebody or you're trying to form or strengthen a relationship with your employee just set the bar a bit higher, don't even worry about responding to what they're saying. Just literally take it in at a level that you feel like. Yours is close to getting into their shoes as you possibly can. And when you do that and you forget about what you respond to, you're going to have, and it can be a bit unnerving to let yourself go there. You will have a sense of understanding where they are and what they're struggling with. So from my point of view, the more any of us can inch up the level of learning that we've got in coaching and all of our relationships really that's really going to equip us to learn about what somebody else is really. Experiencing what they need to learn, what they're trying to learn, what they're trying to do. So that, that would be it from, from my point of view,
Kevin:There's a question that I've learned to ask myself when I am coaching is to consider that I could be wrong. And what that does is sometimes when you're coaching people, you think, you know what they should do or what they should learn or what they should change. And so, so when I'm coaching, I'll ask myself, what if I'm wrong? Could I be wrong about what I think about this situation? And it forces me to continue to ask questions until that person. Because the understanding and the insight is really for them. And so sometimes in my brain to slow down my brain from thinking, I know the answer, I know the answer I just asked myself internally, consider I could be wrong. I can't be wrong about this. So let me listen a little bit more. Let me ask a few more questions and that's helped me grow. I believe in develop as a coach is to quiet that voice by asking myself a question.
Mike:Brilliant.
JoAnn:Do you think, Joanne, that's what I'm doing.
Debby:Thinking
JoAnn:it's a lot to take in. I know we're close to wrapping up. I did want to ask Mike, this question is no, we, this whole, you're talking to three other people who are very much learners. What is one thing that you would tell leaders to keep, how do they keep learning? What is, what is it they need to do that. If you were going to give them one piece of advice, what would it be to become a coach that learns,
Mike:rephrase that question for me so I can get right after. Cause that, that was, that was, that was pretty good, but I can go a lot of different directions. It helped me out with that a little
Kevin:bit more.
JoAnn:What one piece of advice would you give leaders into keeping learning as a habit?
Mike:I think it's just keep doing it. Keep being explicit about the fact that, like we said, at the beginning of this, or I said was learning is life. It's one of those, you know, even back to like Peter sanghas the fifth discipline, the learning organization. I mean, you can, you can see how, if we're in the mode and if we're in the discipline and if we're wiring our thinking to talk about learning and growth all the time, Then it's going to happen. You're setting the expectation. So, you know, from my point of view, if you're a leader to keep challenging yourself and challenging those around you to keep learning and even like the comment earlier around the mistake, it's like, yeah, mistakes are another form of learning. They are absolutely okay. And important. So th that's that's what I would do.
Kevin:I think
Debby:Mike set us up in the very beginning with the answer to this too, right. Is get a coach, right? The coach keeps getting coached and that's going to help you keep learning.
Mike:Yeah. Gallup says everyone needs a coach. And, and I know y'all know this and believe this. We all do. Absolutely.
Kevin:Absolutely. Well, Mike, before we let you go, there's three questions that we like to ask all of our guests. So take a deep breath. They are not hard and you can answer each one of them. What is a book that you think a leader coach should read?
Mike:Hands down. It's the one that I always start out with and in our coaching process here at learning unlimited corporation, and you've been through it, and this won't be a surprise to you, even though you didn't know I was going to say this, but you probably know at a gut level it would be economics. And that's by Markham and Smith. That would be Steve Smith and David Markham. That's a text that I just absolutely love because of all the insight that it gives you as an individual leader. Inside. It gives you when you think about your direct reports and no matter where you are in your life. I think there's plenty in that book to feed you. And it's a challenging book too. It's not necessarily the easiest read, but every client that's ever read, it has gotten gold.
Kevin:Awesome. Not surprised. Definitely, definitely confer with me. So, Mike, the next question is, what question have you been asked that gave you pause that made you think a little deeper or think differently?
Mike:Oh gosh. I can escape this one because it came from a consultant that was on our team that worked for us for 15 years. And he was so good and I could not stand at the day. He gave me the question and he said something to the effect of Mike, what would you do if you weren't afraid? And I think that's such a powerful question for all of us at the time, when I think I was in my early thirties or whatever. And he said that. Hit my ego in a way that I couldn't appreciate the wisdom of it, but I continue to appreciate the wisdom of it ever since, just because it's, I think that's a real powerful personal exploration question that really is challenging. It's challenging. I love the way that it causes you to stretch there.
Kevin:Very interesting. So this is the last question besides learning. What is your word on coaching?
Mike:Well, it's been cited several times, but it's growth.
Kevin:Yeah. Awesome. We'd like that word growth. That's what coaching is all about. Well, thanks Mike. Thanks Debbie. Thanks Joanne. It has been a pleasure. Thank you to our audience for listening. You can check out our podcasts, and you can find it wherever you listen to your podcasts. And until next time, that is the word on coach.