Show Highlights
Links
About Rhonda Sherman
Rhonda Sherman has been providing education and technical assistance on vermicomposting and composting at NC State University for 27 years. A leading authority on vermicomposting, she organizes an annual conference on large-scale vermicomposting that draws participants from all over the world. Rhonda gives about 50 presentations annually, has conducted countless training courses and workshops, and has a variety of publications on composting and vermicomposting. Her new book is The Worm Farmer’s Handbook. Rhonda is the director of the Compost Learning Lab which has 13 types of composting bins and a dozen worm bins.
Show Highlights
Links
About Rhonda Sherman
Rhonda Sherman has been providing education and technical assistance on vermicomposting and composting at NC State University for 27 years. A leading authority on vermicomposting, she organizes an annual conference on large-scale vermicomposting that draws participants from all over the world. Rhonda gives about 50 presentations annually, has conducted countless training courses and workshops, and has a variety of publications on composting and vermicomposting. Her new book is The Worm Farmer’s Handbook. Rhonda is the director of the Compost Learning Lab which has 13 types of composting bins and a dozen worm bins.
Josh Robinson: 0:00
Welcome to the permaculture for the future podcast. I'm your host, Josh Robinson. The world is full of negative news, and the planet seems to be in an ecological crisis, and this can be downright disheartening and disenfranchising because we feel that there's nothing that each one of us can do is an individual that can make any difference. Well, I'm here to provide a different perspective. To tell a new story. Permaculture for the future Podcast is all about spreading positive and impactful stories, tips and ways that each one of us can transition into a regenerative lifestyle where we can make an ecological impact way. Talk about simple ways to make lifestyle changes as we interview authors, teachers, another folks that air collectively healing ourselves and the planet. So if you want to make an ecological impact stick around, this podcast is for you. Welcome to Episode two of the Permaculture for the Future podcast. I'm your host, Josh Robinson, and today we are talking all about worms more specifically, how to start composting with worms, and we're joined with our very first guest, Rhonda Sherman. Now Rhonda has been providing education and technical assistance on Verma composting and composting and North Carolina State University for 27 years. She is a leading authority on Verma composting and organizes an annual conference on large scale Verma composting that draws participants from all over the world. Rhonda gives about 50 presentations a year and has conducted countless training courses and workshops. She has a variety of publications on composting and Verma composting, which I will link to in today's show notes, and her latest book is called The Worm Farmers Handbook, which is the guide to mid scale and larger scale worm composting systems. I've been reading this book, and it is fantastic and encourage you all. If you're really interested in learning more about that, check that out. I'll also linked to that in today's show. Notes. No. Rhonda is the director of the Compost Learning Lab that has 13 different types of compost bends and a dozen worm bends that they've been trialing out. So she really knows her stuff when it comes to composting and particularly around worm composting. In today's show, we're gonna talk about the problems with food waste, and Rhonda's gonna bring up things that I had never thought about when it came to what happens when we throw away food waste and just the problems that creates in the landfill. And then on the flip side, we talk about the solutions to that which are very simple. It's just about getting started with worms. And so Rhonda will literally walk us through how we can get started with keeping worms. We're going to talk about some of the different types of worm composting systems that are out there. And then we're gonna talk about how to harvest the worm castings. And Rhonda gives us three very simple ways to harvest worm castings. And lastly, we're gonna talk about how we can utilize those worm castings in our homes and gardens, right? This is one of the ultimate plant and soil foods, and we'll learn about just the success that people are having in the scientific research that is showing the power of using worm castings in your soil's. So welcome to today's show. I hope you get a lot out of it. Here's Rhonda,
Rhonda Sherman: 4:00
So I'm Rhonda Sherman. I'm an extension specialist at North Carolina State University, have been there for 27 years, and and I've done, you know, many other things. D'oh! But what I accidentally became world famous for is Verma Compost Dae So and that started, you know, back in 1994 when I wrote a little publication about how to set up a worm then and it was just so popular that it just kept having to be reprinted. And then quest started flowing in from all over the world. And so people in 114 countries have written to me and said, I want to learn more about Verma composting. So it's been very interesting. No. So it kind of I made a veer with my career that I wasn't expecting, but it's just in response to popular demand.
Josh Robinson: 5:00
We'll tell me a little bit about the process. I mean, obviously you've been doing this for quite some time and you put out a little publication. And what was it about that publication? Do you think that got a lot of people really excited about worms? They were reaching out to you from all of these different places.
Rhonda Sherman: 5:16
Well, that it's something they could do themselves. Usually, you know, it's something you can do in your home so you don't have to have a backyard. You could be in an apartment. You can make a really great income from it. It's helped people around. The world's become financially independent. And I'm really excited about that because, you know, there are some parts of the world if you know, especially for women. In some cultures. If their husband dies, they have no income whatsoever. And, you know, I'm talking about places like India. So by getting some worms and beating them organic materials that air considered waste products and then they turn it into this wonderful, beneficial soil amendment that has a really a positive effect on plants. And so people are becoming financially independent doing that, and they're improving degraded soils and they're increasing crop yields and using fewer fertilizers and pesticides and herbicides and insecticides. So it's really a win win thing.
Josh Robinson: 6:30
Wow. Okay, so when people are getting started, I mean, what is it about worms? You mean you mentioned there that people are getting potential income from this? They're able to take care of themselves, and I think there's a lot that we can unpack their butt to get started. So if somebody wants to compost with worms, I mean what is the basic, you know, reasons besides just ah, income that people would want to look at when it comes to worms.
Rhonda Sherman: 6:56
Okay, because one of the biggest problems in this country that people are not even aware of what a huge problem it is is food waste, going to landfills and going down the drain. It's something that's been ignored for years. Finally, food waste is getting some press. But people don't realize the importance of taking care of this problem themselves, and they don't realize that they can do it themselves. You know, you don't need toe Storm City Hall and say, Hey, you need to pick up my food waste Now you're in California in California is ahead of the rest of the country. They always have been when it comes to taking care of the environment and initiating recycling and composting and Burma composting. But in other parts of the country, it's still waits, Hein, and so are they picking up food waste in curbside carts in San Diego.
Josh Robinson: 7:58
They're not. It's actually been kind of a contentious avenue because, you know, with our system, we have a single entity that deals with all the waste for the different municipalities, and they've actually made it really hard for other people to come in and start up composting operations. That would take food scraps.
Rhonda Sherman: 8:18
Okay, well, let's unpack this because, okay, first of all, when people throw away food waste, we all generate it. Okay, We generated in our homes. We generated at schools, universities, businesses, nursing homes, hospitals, grocery stores, restaurants. Think of all the food waste that's being generated. Well, most of it is going to the landfill. What happens in the landfill? That's what people don't get educated about. Okay, right now, there's a huge outcry about putting plastics and landfills, and it is a problem. It's not a good thing to throw plastics in landfills, but it's not. But basically it's filling up land spells. It's not causing environmental problems, whereas Foodways does. So. The problem is, you're putting food waste into an anaerobic environment. Landfills are designed to tryto keep water out and keep air and sunlight out. So it's an anaerobic environment. And so you put a plastic bottle in there and the plastic bottle just sits there forever. Okay, we've food waste in there, and it starts to release gases and nothing in the absence of oxygen. So nothing is being generated. And methane is 34 times more potent than carbon dioxide affecting the greenhouse effect. So methane is one of the biggest contributors to climate change. And so food waste in landfills is one of the top contributors to climate change. And that's being ignored. People don't realize that. And so so what happens when food waste is in landfills? Well, landfills. The problem is, you're always gonna. They're always eventually going toe week. Okay. Landfills produced what's called Lee Shape. It's like a toxic soup that's created in the landfill. And then landfill is designed to try to prevent leakage and try to collect the leech eight at the bottom. But there's no foolproof way to do that. So unfortunately, you always end up with some kind of leakage eventually. Okay, how does food waste cause more of a problem there? Well, because food waste is it's very acidic, and so you could have a tin can that didn't make it into the recycle pile, and instead it made its way to the landfill, and it's sitting there, minding its own business inside the landfill. But then food waste gets dumped on it. Food waste with its acids and other things will strip the heavy metals from the can. And so all of a sudden this Can is, is creating heavy metals and toxic compounds that have been a released. And then those air gonna go into the Liege eight. Also, because of this, nothing that's being generated. Methane likes to travel for Izon Aly, and so they used to be a problem with thumbs where there would be organic materials in the dung. Methane would be generated, and then it would travel horizontally. And one time it blew up next to an elementary school. Because that's problem is it's explosive. So there are other instances where it's blown up buildings or nearly missed buildings, so landfills are required to capture mething hand pipes that go vertical instead of horizontal. The problem is, they're not required to do anything with it, so they can just flare up into the atmosphere. Well, all this nothing has been created by Foodways, which is the number one category of materials that are going to landfill. It's not number one category of waste that's generated, but it's the number one category of waste being dumped in landfills. And it's because people aren't educated about the problems of food waste. And their end is complicated, like you haven't seen here. Go. It's complicated in terms off picking it up. But what happens when you do pick it up? Okay, so the situation is whoever picks it up has to spend. You know, you have huge trucks going around using fuel and admitting all sorts of, you know, chemicals into the atmosphere, and you're paying for the trucks you're paying for their maintenance, their fuel. You're paying for the people to staff the trucks, and then it's going thio know a composting facility, which is not gonna be five miles away. It's probably gonna be 50 or 100 miles way. Okay, so that's a really huge carbon footprint right there. And so it just makes sense for people to keep their food ways and deal with it on site. Whether that's in your home, in your backyard, in your business, inside the business, in the basement of the business and the alley of the business, there were just so many ways where you can do on site Verma composting or composting in California has the best climate in the nation for Roma composting. You guys can do it outside. No problem you do. You have a mild climate. Where is where I live? In North Carolina. It gets over 100 degrees here. I know it. Sometimes it hits 100 where you are, but it's not that often. But you know, it gets extremely hot and extremely cold here, too. So anyway, I'm just encouraging people in California Thio take advantage of the climate and do this very simple thing of doing, you know, Burma. Composting.
Josh Robinson: 14:36
Yeah, that's absolutely crazy to think about the amount of potential harm that's actually just coming from food scraps entering the landfill. But I've always been really interested in what, looking at these solutions and taking personal responsibility for our actions. And that's where I think a lot of the power of composting with worms can come in because that simple little action or complicit in general, I should say that simple action of reducing and eliminating that food scrap organic matter entering into the landfills can have consequences or actions that are beneficial to the environment because we start to get these positive feedback loops right where we're not only keeping the methane out of the atmosphere where it sounds like. I was completely unaware about food scraps and how the acids would interact with things like metals and tin cans, and you know the other materials that are in there and creating these toxic lead shades. But all of a sudden, when we start to do that at our own homes, those problems essentially disappear. And the by product of that are worm castings or compost that we can use in the garden, which then essentially becomes a carbon source that's actually drawing carbon or holding that sequestering that in the soils. It's quite an elegant solution for something that we make so complex,
Rhonda Sherman: 16:07
you know. So we need to eat right, So we need to grow food. And then when we consume food, there's always some kind of waste, you know, I mean, think about an apple. You don't eat the entire thing that you have the seeds left over, okay, and so you can use whatever food scraps, or you have to turn it into a medium for growing more food. So it's a way of recycling, you know, it's just a win win situation.
Josh Robinson: 16:38
Yeah. Now, for people that have never composted with worms and are completely new to this, do you want to give a little bit of an introduction of how if somebody can get started?
Rhonda Sherman: 16:49
Yes, yes. So I have ah, that publication that I mentioned that, you know, just took off like crazy. It's called worms can recycle your garbage. It's five pages, which is very easy to read, is very succinct, concise. It's free, hon. My website. And so I tell you how to set up a worm then And I teach Verma composting and composting once mall in large scales and I make it accessible for everyone. So I would never say, Oh, you have to buy ah $100 bin to get started. It's like, No, no, not everybody could afford that. So, in my publication, I say I tell you how you can just buy a spend $5 earn a plastic storage bin with the lid. Okay. You know, like 14 Gail and been Yep. T oh, yeah, Yeah. I was trying nine to use. Uh, yes, that's what comes to mind. So that's a good way to start. You can make your own been. You know, you can repurpose something or make it out of wood. But you start with the been about that size so it's about, you know Oh, my goodness. 16 to 18 inches long, about a foot high, Just something small like that, you know, that could fit under your kitchen sink or be put, you know, on a kitchen counter. I used to keep mine in my bathroom. You know, where I had a counter with with drawers on either side and a big, empty space underneath that was just waiting for a warm. I kept it at my office, you know, under my desk like that, he could put it anywhere. I've known people to make a lovely coffee table. That's a worm bin, you know. So they were just easy ways easy, inexpensive ways to start with a bin. And then you have to understand the warms. Okay, there are over 9000 species of worms, and only seven species have been identified that are suitable for firmly composting. And there's really just one that most people use one species of warm. It's called Isentia Jedediah. It has many common names around here where I live. It's called red Wiggler Quite often. It's funny. When I go to foreign countries, people will say, Yeah, I heard I need these California ride worms around the world. They think that California has its own special worm. But it's I Sania editor. Yeah, so you have to have the right species of earthworm. Okay, This particular species lives on top of the soil. So it's not the earth form that people imagine that you know, earthworm, meaning you It burrows into the soil and eat soil. It doesn't do that. So it lives on top of the ground and you find it in leaf piles and dung piles. Okay, but don't look for it in nature because you need 1000 of them. Okay, you need a pound to start with, so it's really best to buy it from a worm grower. So it's important to understand that with these earthworms need moist skin in order for the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide to take place so they breathe through their skin, so they have to live in a moist environment. So say, if you do start with a Rubbermaid talk, that's not a moist environment, right? So what you have to do is put moist betting in there. So that's the environment where they'll live. So most people with that size of a container the like, I said, A 14 gail and container. Most people start with shredded paper, the low take shredded office paper or newspaper or cardboard or box board, and you soak it for about 10 minutes. It soak it in water, clean water for 10 minutes, and then you kind of, you know, squeeze sex us water out and just fill the been halfway with that paper medium and then add your pound of isentia feta earthworms. And then you can start beating them pretty much the next day. It's goingto let them get adjusted to the bin and then, But the biggest problem is over feeding, so earthworms will only consume about 1/4 to 1/3 of their body weight per day. And so you know, that means if you have a pound of worms than you would only add like 1/4 of a pound of food per day, you know, and it's not really a daily thing anyway, So anybody who's thinking, Oh my gosh, I have to add this to my chores for you know, the day a lot of people, they just feed once a week. And if you have more than that in food waste, then get a backyard composting bin where you can just dump it. Ah, backyard composting bin is bigger, and it's kind of more forgiving because it is so large. And so I always like to have a backup of, ah, backyard composting bin in addition to my warm down. And, you know, you just keep the lid on and there's no odor whatsoever. If you're doing things correctly and then when you take the lid off, it should just smell like the Earth. That's just it. You know, like, if you were you know what I mean. Just smell like a handful of soil. Yeah, like being in the forest. So it's very easy to deal.
Josh Robinson: 22:48
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you. I mean, you're able Thio use cardboard newspaper, that kind of stuff. I mean, here at our house, we love to just take all of our junk mail that we can't seem to get rid of it. Put that through the shredder and that always makes it into the wearing, Ben. And I'm glad you also brought up just compost bins in general, I think that's a you know, for being ableto cycle larger quantities that seems to work really well. And one thing that we've been doing lately is kind of partially composting in our compost bin and before it's fully finished using that, essentially, a czar betting in our worm bins, they seem toe love that and finish it off, Make it just absolutely amazing. Mmm. Now, I've seen a lot of different bins out there. I mean, getting started. But I think a lot of people just start off with the rubber toad. But you also mentioned that you can kind of build it out of just about anything, anything that's gonna kind of contain. And I know in some of the bigger systems people use things like wind rose. But there are also some bins out there that are more of these continual flow systems. Do you want to describe what that is and how that works?
Rhonda Sherman: 24:00
Yeah, So it continuous flow system. It's because when the worms excrete you there when they poop, Okay, their poop is called castings. and the castings end up on the bottom off, wherever they are, and so to remove the castings. You know, that means you've got the castings on the bottom, and then you've got betting on top of it. So how do you get to them? Okay, it could be kind of a labor intensive process to dig the castings out of the bottom. And so you can do, ah, flow through digester system. And what that means is it's a raised bed. So it's up on legs. Some people will build these out of old, you know, like palate racking. You know, like when you go in a big box store, the shelving is called palate Brackett. Yeah, so you can make a flow through system from that so it would be raised off the ground a couple of feet. And then the bottom of the bin itself is made out of wire Nash, some metal nash that's actually two inches by two inches or two inches by four inches. So it's big. It's, you know, not like window screens. You know these big openings. And so to prevent material from falling through that you lay down some paper a lot of people to take like the brown postal wrapping paper, you know? Yep. And it's put a layer of bad on the bottom, and then you put six inches of betting of moist betting. I like to use a mature compost and people will use aged manure. But anyhow, you have the six inches of moist betting, and then you add the warms and you want to add £1 of worms per square foot of surface area. Okay, so, uh, like I haven't been that's five feet wide and eight feet long. It's a continuous flow through digester, and so that's cool. 40 square feet. So for optimal production, you would want £40 of worms in that, huh? So But anyway, the worms, they go up, Thio, eat. And you always want that to be the case in a system that they're gonna be in the top 4 to 6 inches of whatever type of system you have, including wind rose and then the continuous flow through reactor. On top of the mash is what's called a breaker bar. And so when it's time when the bin is almost full and you want to start harvesting, you'll pull the breaker bars somehow. OK, most people will put a motor on each end of the bin, but it could be a hand crank. It could be, you know, block and tackle whatever something toe pull that breaker bar, and then it just shaves off an inch of the castings off the bottom. And then so a lot of people that will do that once a week, maybe twice a week, and you know, for whatever their system is, so it costs more to set up a system like that to build or bias system. But it saves you in labor because you're letting a machine basically harvest the castings, so that's an option. So that's something I talked about in my book, the Warm Farmers Handbook, which is for mid to large scale Verma composting, fur farms, businesses, municipality schools in institutions and in it. In that book, I described that system and all the other different methods that can be used for raising warms. And then I highlighted and you know, kind of gave snapshot views of two dozen different operations. So Verma composting that's taking place at farms at schools, at military bases at hospitals, universities you name it. So I described those and most of those operations. Many of them are in California. So, you know, once again, California's great climate A Ben to California many times. And I've been to many different worm farms, um, the schools, this wonderful school systems and to meet us right up the road from San Diego. They are doing a fabulous job of Burma composting in their schools and in the Bay Area. So lots of verma composting going on.
Josh Robinson: 29:05
Yeah. Now, the way you're describing a lot of the continuous flow systems, it sounds like that would be much more of a commercial type system or somebody wants to invest in something that's obviously gonna cost a bit more. Have you seen any smaller systems for more like the backyard or and homes? Yeah,
Rhonda Sherman: 29:23
well, and I was going to say the Yes, there are some really large operations where they're taking Deering the newer from 10,000 head of cows, and beating their manure through these continuous flow through digesters. So that's definitely taking place, but and you can do it. For example, many years ago, when I was in California, I was I went to a high school where somebody had just gotten some pale at racking and turned it into a continuous glow digester to handle the cafeteria food waste as the high school. And so, you know, that was a pretty inexpensive system to build, so it could be done, you know, on a cheaper scaling for a smaller system. But I was just amazed that in California I saw many instances where people just did little wind rose in their backyards. They were her people making Cem Cem good money from harvesting those. So that's a very simple way to do it. So you don't need a bin for that at all. You know, you're just putting down the betting and then you're adding the worms and beating them, you know, like an inch of of material at a time. So it's a very simple way of doing there.
Josh Robinson: 30:48
Yeah, now it sounds like I mean, the ease of harvesting from something like a continuous been system or flow through system is really the advantage. But I'm imagining many people are getting into this. Aren't going to either have the skill set to try to build something like that or even the desire to, and they don't want to spend a lot of money. And so if they are starting off with just a simple, straightforward, been in their house in their yard, how does one go about harvesting castings or what are your What are your preferred?
Rhonda Sherman: 31:22
Okay, so it's very it's actually very easy to do that with with a Fortune Gallon Rubbermaid been which I suggest everybody start with that. Okay, So anybody who's read my book or they're seeing dollar signs for Verma composting, I say, Whoa, slow down. You need to start with a small Ben and develop animal husbandry skills. You need to keep those worms alive. They don't care what kind of system there in They need the care that any other animal or human being would need. Okay, so they need air, water, food and shelter. So that's what we care about. And so, with the Verma composting again in my free publication, worms can recycle your garbage. I described three different options for harvesting. A small been like that. So the first I call light separation and all you do is you take your you've got your container and you just dump it dump out the contents. So basically, just turn it upside down and empty it out on an old shower curtain or, you know, some kind of big piece of plastic. Okay? And that needs to be, you know, in sunlight or under bright lights. And the worms are sensitive to light, so they'll move away so they'll move deeper into that pile that you just dumped out. Okay, so you empty that pile, and then you set up your Ben. So actually, before I even empty the Ben, I start making betting and soak about ing, OK, so that when my bin is empty, I'm ready to again ad fill it halfway with new bedding. And then I've got this pile of of contents of the bin, and I've got a container labeled black gold. Okay, because that's what the Verma Compost iss. And so I just removed any Verma compost I find goes into the black gold container. Hopefully, the worms have read my publication and their dutifully moving away from the light going deeper into the bile. Okay, but any worms she find or old bedding that would just go back into the bin. So that process takes me alone. 60 to 90 minutes a guy. So not much time at all. The second way of harvesting is called horizontal harvesting. And for that you follow all the directions, everything I've described. And after 4 to 6 months, you may decide, huh? There's quite a bit of castings that are building up in the bottom of my been. I think it's tryingto think about harvesting. And so, with horizontal harvesting, you don't need to even touch the worms. You on Lee start beating on one side of the Ben. Okay, So you visually cut the been in half and on Lee start feeding on one side. So you're only feeding and watering on one side if it needs any water. And if it does need water, you always on Lee, use a spritzer. You just spray some water on. You never pour water into a warm bed. But anyway, so the worms, they're not like cats and dogs who are like, Oh, the food's over here. Now, you know, they will slowly make their way over to the other side, and they will start to eat the food. And so, after a few weeks, most of the worms will be on the other side of the bin so you can remove the castings from the side that you haven't been feeding. And there shouldn't be many worms there. Okay? And then you just and more betting to that side and start on, Lee feeding on that side in the worms will move back. So pretty cool, huh? Yes. And then the third way is vertical harvesting. And with that, you would have two bins. Okay, so you spent $5 for a Rubbermaid. Been? When you buy that, you buy another Ben at the same time. Okay, so you make sure that the to fit, you know, that one will fit inside the other one. Okay? Or you can buy. Ah, $100. Ben, You know, there are bins that cost around $100 they're they have multiple trays. Okay,
Josh Robinson: 36:13
So they have seen those, like the worm tower hotel or Yeah, yeah,
Rhonda Sherman: 36:18
yeah, yeah. Uh, So anyway, he set it up. If you're going the Rubbermaid way, you just set that up. And, um, your Burma composting along for several months and the castings air building up on the bottom. And so, you know, it's making your material, and you're been deeper. So it'll get to the point where it's deep enough that you can put the second been in on tot, you know, inside. And the bottom of that bin will rest on top of the betting and there lots of holes in the bottom of both bends. Okay, But anyway, so you on Lee, start eating in that top bin, and then the worms will move up through those holes into the top, been so they will eventually vacate the bottom. Been, they'll say, Oh, the food is up there and they like to go to the top to eat anyway, So they're just, you know, really moving just a little bit farther than they normally would, you know, But they all move into the top in, and then you just have the castings on the bottom them. And so then you can just take that off. So you're only operating in one. Been at a time. That's where the feedings take place. Okay, It's very simple. Yeah,
Josh Robinson: 37:39
I've used all of these methods in one fashion or another over the years, and I never really gave ah terminology to it. It was really nice to kind of, you know, lay it out in a framework or it's like, Oh, yeah, there's using light or just using horizontal harvesting or the vertical Harvest Team. You've been doing this for a lot of years, and you've been consulting with a lot of people and no other groups. And what not that are also setting up wearing bins? Have you found a particular style of these three harvesting methods that you think is a little easier for people to kind of work on, or just a preferred way that seems to have fewer maybe time requirements?
Rhonda Sherman: 38:17
Well, I mean, really, it's up to the individual what they want to dio. There are a lot of warm them in classrooms, you know, because people can use them for teaching. And by the way, I have a firmer composting curriculum. So that's free on my Web site. So it's got six chapters and 12 activities that you can do with warm. Wonderful. No, that's a great thing for school classrooms to use. So in a classroom like that, you know, it's kind of fun to do the light separation, you know, because everybody can sort of get involved with that in the horizontal. It's like you just have to kind of plan ahead. So if you have a deadline, you know, most people don't have a deadline, for I have to harvest my been by this time, you know, But some people d'oh just because of their circumstances. And so, with the horizontal and vertical, it's gonna take a few weeks for the worms to move to where you want them Thio, you know? But you know, there are People say, I don't want to touch, warms and, you know and so the horizontal or the vertical method is great because you really don't have to touch ones.
Josh Robinson: 39:32
Yeah, that makes sense. It just comes down to personal preference. Yeah. Okay, now, once somebody's harvested the castings in your book, you mentioned just about how beneficial worm castings ca NBI to plants and really the soil biology. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Rhonda Sherman: 39:50
Yes. It's amazing the number of positive effects that Verma compost has on soil and on plants. Okay, so I'll talk about plants that it helps seeds to germinate more quickly, and the plants will grow bigger and stronger and have better developed root systems, and then they'll have a higher yield of whatever that plant produces. So that's all very amazing. And there have been over 30,000 published studies about Burma compost of effects on plants. So but also it will decrease attacks by plant diseases and parasitic nematodes, which attacked the roots and also insect puss. So there are just thousands and thousands of studies that have been documented, you know, through published research about how insect pests won't even land on plants that are grown in verma compost. What's really amazing
Josh Robinson: 40:54
Now, have you experienced that in your use of worm castings?
Rhonda Sherman: 40:58
Uh, yeah. I mean, yes, I've experienced it with plants that are Yeah, an impact here at the university. Okay, I did a I had a grant. Where with a couple of colleagues, and we were actually looking at nutrient runoff. So we were complete comparing verma compost to fertilizer and you know, the nutrients that ran off. But coincidentally, we couldn't help notice the effect on the plants. And so when I give talks, I have this wild factor slide that I show because we planted turn up and these were in randomized plots over a year and 1/2 of S 03 different seasons and different plots in actually different locations. But we make sure that all of the turn ups have equal amounts of nitrogen. Okay, so every plot had equal amounts of nitrogen. Some of the plots had no Burma compost. Some of the planets had 10% by volume, Verma compost added, and then some had 20% Verma compost by volume. And I tell you this the picture of these turn ups? Well, it's in my book.
Josh Robinson: 42:19
Yeah, I remember seeing that one.
Rhonda Sherman: 42:22
It knocks. You're still hacksaw because you see the regular turn of it. It's just so small and, you know, it just has one route and then you see the 10% by volume Burma Campos next to it. And it's like if you're in the turnip green business, you just hit the jackpot. Just huge, huge turnip greens. And the turnip itself is enormous. And then the root system is just so well developed and, you know, much bigger and longer. So it's just amazing what it can. D'oh! You know So and the reason So you might have noticed that I made a point of saying that all of these plants, even though they really vary in size, they all had equal amounts of nitrogen, and it's because of Huma CASS IDs and plant growth hormones. But Aaron, the Verma compost and then the Verma compost also contains nutrients that Aaron forms readily taken up by the plants. And the Verma compost is, ah, high water holding capacity, and it's fully stabilized. Okay, so it's, you know, like your listeners might have experienced compost that'll burn their plans. And this is not gonna happen with Verma compost because the particles of food have actually been consumed by earthworms, so they're stable. So the castings, the poop that comes out the other end of the worms is a stable material that could be incorporated in soil right away. Yeah, an alternate tea from it. You know, you can make verma compost tea toe either used as a soil drenched or to spray on the weeks of the plants. When
Josh Robinson: 44:10
you talk about T, is that more of an A rated compost worm Tea? Yes, what's your typical process for that?
Rhonda Sherman: 44:16
Well, you know, I described in the book that you don't have to have a fancy tea board. You know, you could make it yourself out of a five gallon bucket, but it just needs to be clean. So you have to recognize that if something's really dirty and has a bio slime on it, you know that I can have pathogens in it. And so you don't want to brew more pathogens. So just taking good quality. Verma compost are, you know, the castings, the worm castings, and you can put it in a mash bag and then have, uh, clean water that's put into a clean five gallon bucket, and the water needs to be around 70 ish degrees. Okay, It makes me kind of warmish water and that, you know, cool water, and then it can just be in there for 24 to 48 hours, and you could just stir it every couple of hours or, you know, have ah aquarium bubbler something thio airy the water and the water will pass through the verma, compost the castings and remove nutrients from the castings. And then you have those nutrients and micro organisms that are in the liquid behind that water, and then that needs a soon as you finish a rating, you need to use it within four hours. And don't add sugar to it. You know, like some people add glasses or some type of sugar because it increases the number of micro organisms. But the problem is, you're always going to have a little bit of pathogenic microorganisms when I say pathogenic, I mean, like he coli or salmon L. A. You know something like that that can make you sick, so you don't want those numbers of organisms to greatly increase. And so that's why I say Don't add any sugar. If you want to add I mentioned in the book, you could add some You know, some other things if you want, but just having good quality castings. That's really all you need.
Josh Robinson: 46:32
One of the things that I've really loved about worm composting is just the simplicity of it and the quality product that you get out of it, compared to a just a standard compost bin. If you're not really managing that, you know a lot of people have issues, but worm bin seems to be a little bit more forgiving in that way of like always ending up as long as it's hydrated and not to wet, it seems to really bounce back. And then, yeah, the worm compost. He can be just absolutely
Rhonda Sherman: 47:00
fantastic. Yeah, but I do want to clarify that the worm compost tea is on Lee finished compost and then intentionally carefully brewing that into Verma compost tea. The reason why I'm clarifying that is because when people don't manage their worm been very well. They can end up with access to liquid coming out of the bottom of the bend. And bad is leech age. That is not where we talked about Leach eight before, as a negative thing coming out of landfills and so coming out of O worm bin. It's also a negative thing, okay, because I call it the stinking mystery liquid. Okay, well, stink Dink is because it's anaerobic. It's passed through an aerobics, and it's a mystery because it has an unknown amount of nutrients in it, and it could have pathogens and acids and all sorts of things. So it's very questionable. And so there's a lot of debate about this because, you know, people who have used bleach ape unplanned, we'll find that their plants grow bigger. You know, it's like, Yeah, well, it's good. We'll know it's a mystery. It's because, yes, it does have nutrients in it, but it has other unknown things. And so why would you want to put that on anything that you would grow to each or put it on any valuable plants? Why put stinking mystery liquid on it? Why not brew something from good quality castings that you've made? And then you carefully brewed it in a very clean process.
Josh Robinson: 48:51
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I mean, that is something that often comes up when people talk about wearing bins. And people do often confuse the leech A and call it worm tea or, you know, worm juice or some, you know, terminology around that. And there does seem to be a couple camps of folks that you know, like there's Dr Lane Ing. I'm on one side who is adamantly opposed to using the leech A. Because of that anaerobic quality and the potential for anaerobic organisms like E. Coli and others that can make you sick particular, if you're putting it on a leafy green or, you know, root crops, where you're gonna be direct potentially eating that Versace. You know, maybe something is just irrigating a fruit tree here. Where? What Not? And then you have people that definitely swear by using Lee shade and, well, actually set up systems too ad excess water to harvest that leech aid and then using that essentially in their irrigation systems. And, you know, like you said, a lot of people get really excited about the leash aid and swear by what it's doing there. And I've never known quite what to do with it. So you're saying the leech, it is almost a problem of too much excess water in your system.
Rhonda Sherman: 50:12
Yes. If you are operating a worm, been correctly, you will not have liquid coming out of the bottom of it. You will not have Lee Jae. So it's just a matter of managing things correctly. Yep. Okay. Being a mop a bit and then usually that access is created because of overfeeding a worm them. So that's why I say let's talk about the value of Verma compost versus compost. If you were going to sell it, Okay, so if you were going to sell a cubic yard of compost, you could sell it for about $30. If you were going to sell a cubic yard of Verma compost, you could sell it for between 200 $1000. Yeah, it because it has a much more profound effect on soil and plants, so Verma compost is more valuable. So I mentioned that I have, ah, worm bin and a compost bin, and I think about the value of the product. I think about the size of the wound in versus the compost bin, and I think about the value of the product. And so I'm just more careful with my warm them so I don't overfeed it, and I don't end up with Li Che in my backyard. Ben, I you know, throw. You know, I don't worry about the quantity of food ways that I'm putting into a back there, Ben. It's very forgiving. And I have a publication about that to my free publication about backyard composting that tells you how to do it very efficiently and, you know, so you do have to just be careful and not tree a worm bin like a trash bin. You know, I just dump everything in there.
Josh Robinson: 52:08
Yeah, you have to be a little bit selective on what you're putting in. And now you're managing that? Yeah. Okay, well, that's all great information. I think that's going to give our listeners a lot to kind of get started with. I will link to your website with all of those publications that you mentioned is Do you have any other final thoughts? There were things that you want to say.
Rhonda Sherman: 52:29
Well, I hope people had Cem ah ha. Moments when I was talking about food ways and just the destructive things that are happening because of people throwing away food waste. I hope that's like new information where wow, I didn't realize that food waste was such a big problem, and I didn't realize that. Hey, it's easy enough for me to solve at home. So I just hope that idea will spread like you know, like crazy in your area will be people will go. Yes, this is what I want to dio, and it's so easy and you know your organization. I'm sure you promote, you know you promote it, and there are many other places where Verma composting and composting are taught your classes and people can get started very easily.
Josh Robinson: 53:24
Great. Well, thank you, Rhonda. I mean, that is so much just positive information. I I love that people can make these changes with solving the food waste issue, just rate in their own backyards and rate in their own homes. Like I said, I'll link to your website. I thank you again and I hope that we can continue this conversation in a future. Dialogue is more and more people get into this and we develop more questions and more things that we want to kind of dive more into some of those details.
Rhonda Sherman: 53:55
Bad sounds great. I would love
Josh Robinson: 53:57
to continue this conversation. Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed today's show with our guest, Rhonda Sherman. She really broke it down on how to get started making changes through composting with worms. So if you want to learn more about what she has going on, check out her books. There's length in the show notes and stay tuned because there's going to be a lot more great episodes from other authors and educators and different folks that are all making an impact in this world coming up. Next way have the author Brad Lancaster of the Rainwater harvesting for drylands and beyond books Gonna break down how to start getting involved with making changes through harvesting rainwater. Great episode coming up Now we are a new podcast and we can certainly use some help getting the message out there this message of positivity about actually taking action, making those changes, making the world that we want to be in envisioning co creating it together as a community with living systems. So, please, if you haven't already subscribed on whatever podcasting apparatus that you used to listen to your podcasts could be iTunes. Could be stitcher. Could be any of those. And if you can leave a review, that really helps get the message out there. Thanks. We'll see you next week.