The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Nourishing Mind and Body: Exploring Zen Eating with Momoe (Part 2)
How can we incorporate Zen eating into our lives?
Food is an essential aspect of life, providing nourishment and sustaining us daily. However, it's crucial to be mindful not only of what we eat but also how we consume it. Amidst the hustle and bustle of daily life, we often overlook the significance of the act of eating. This is where the practice of Zen eating becomes invaluable.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Momoe about strategies for integrating Zen eating into our lives.
Recently I met Dalai Lama and he suggested me to help others. So that was heart-shaking for me. So helping others is becoming part of my ikigai. It's an important part of my ikigai. So how I can contribute to humanity and the planet will be my big part of ikigai at ikigaitribecom.
Speaker 2:All right, we are back this is part two with my conversation with momoe on zen eating, and we ended with this idea of how japanese weeds or not japanese weeds, but how weeds can be appreciated for their resilience. So let's continue the conversation, momoe san, and talk about what foods do you recommend for zen eating?
Speaker 1:that's interesting question. So I recommend you to try having food that you can feel connection, the food that enhance connectivity. So we were talking about rice in the previous episode. So if you can imagine who was involved to make this one grain of rice, then rice may be something that I can recommend to you. If you can imagine better by eating carrot, then carrot is something that I recommend to you, by imagining how this was growing every day.
Speaker 1:From the baby seed it sprout came out, baby root came out and that sprout grow to the sun and root expand in the soil powerfully, widely wild this wildness and liveliness. And branches, leaves expand to the sky Without any hesitation. This tree receives all the blessings from the nature, the sunlight, nutrients, from the soil. So this liveliness is helping you to connect better with the food, with yourself, and also it nourishes your soul and spirit, not only your physical body, but entire. Nourishment is really important, I think. So the food that you can imagine like this liveliness and energy, so that you don't see food as something like supplement. You see food as life, source of life. So not only vitamin B, c or fiber, but food nourish your soul and spirit as well.
Speaker 2:So I recommend you to choose something that you can feel, this sense of connectivity that was interesting because I remember looking at the notes and I thought you're going to list all these healthy foods and then I just saw um sunagari or kanjirareru tabemono, yeah, and I thought, ah, foods you connect with. It made me think, ah, there might also be like this emotional connection to food and then that reminded me of natsukashi, this idea of what's Natsukashi in English it's hard to explain, but kind of like nostalgia. But you have this love, love for food of the past. So for maybe for me it would be something like my you know, my mother's cooking, or even food in Japan which I can't really eat here. Sometimes I crave something like unagi on a hot day, or oden on a cold day, or really really good ramen. So the connection, that's a really thoughtful answer. But yeah, I like that idea of food that gives you not just energy but nourishment.
Speaker 2:Yes Even emotional or kind of spiritual nourishment is really interesting.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so there are two perspectives around connection, the food that you can feel. Connection and also the second perspective was what I want to emphasize is that you can remind yourself that you are living in the connection, in the being. You are intervening, but we easily forget it. It's easy to forget that we are interbeing. So the food that reminds you that you are interbeing is something that I recommend.
Speaker 2:That's really good, because we have to then reflect on that question, don't we? And go back to being kind of mindful but also emotional, like what gives me this positive emotion and tied to feeling, I think, feeling good and healthy and whole, and and one one with nature, uh, one with the food. So that could be our listeners homework. Think about foods that connect you deeply to nature, to yourself.
Speaker 1:Great, great. So it might be different when you are eating in Australia, when you're eating in Japan, very different. So what natural current you, this present moment, may be different. It's fun to explore.
Speaker 2:So that would be yeah, that would be good homework. So that's hopefully someone replies or lets us know on social media if they've done their homework. So let's touch on Japanese food, and there are many things we could touch on, but one thing I discovered in Japan, without really knowing the word for this for many years, is this concept of ichiju sansai. So what is that? And do you think that type of style of eating or that food arrangement helps with Zen eating?
Speaker 1:Well, it helps to start, maybe, as a good start. Yes, ichiju sansai means one soup three dishes and usually come along with the rice.
Speaker 1:Rice is really important for Japanese food. So rice with soup and three dishes, yes, in a way that you can experience varieties of textures, varieties of smell, flavor, aroma. So, as a first step, it is great for your body to experience that I have five senses. Yes, I forgot it, but I have five senses. This, it is your sunset. Three dishes and one soup may help you to tune into your body. And yet, ultimately, I personally think that what to eat, know how to eat, or mindset while eating, is as important as what you eat. So, even though you are eating something far from this, rice soup, three dishes, but you can still practice zen eating if your conscious level is growing. You train your conscious level so that you can practice with junk food, as you said in the previous last episode.
Speaker 2:Actually I'm laughing because this reminds me of my wife. I don't say this anymore. I think I've learned a lesson from her, but when she was eating really highly processed snacks with maybe a lot of chemicals, I would sort of say, oh you know, babe, you shouldn't eat that stuff. And she would say it doesn't matter what it is, it's how you eat it or it's the feeling that comes with it. So yeah, she would be serious. You know, you don't want to be guilty eating anything Like. You want to enjoy the moment and the food. So it's a powerful concept. And I mean going back to Ichiju Sansai, it's really interesting the cultural differences of food. So if we talk about soup in the West or in Australia, we see it as something you would eat on its own, maybe as an entree or a starter. You first have your soup and then after that you have your main dish, dish.
Speaker 1:And to this idea of having this soup where you sip every now and then in between chewing is, it seems, unique to japanese food right, that's again have some sort of relationship with the concept that I I talked you complete this dish, so order that you eat will be decided by your body, so you can start with soup and you can finish it. But usually in japan we usually eat soup, rice, soup side dishes, side dishes and rice. Something make triangle is what education teaches, how education teaches you to eat in Japan Make triangle dish rice side rice, soup rice.
Speaker 2:I mean it's very different to the west, especially when we used to. I mean, when we eat out and if we ever ate out, you'd have an entree, a main and dessert. And then, when living in japan, I think, I actually tried to encourage my wife and say, hey, let's take your family out for dinner. And I envisioned this idea that we'd go out and kind of have a Western meal. And once we organized it, it was just, I think we just went and had ramen and we all got our ramen at different times and we didn't really have any conversation and we just ate the ramen and then it was over within 20 minutes or half an hour and I thought, ah, it really is different here.
Speaker 2:So it took me some time perhaps to appreciate the differences. And now I think it's bizarre Like why would you finish a dinner with dessert? Like why would you finish your last meal with lots of sugar? And I mean, that can be okay when it's a special occasion, but the culture of food is always fascinating. So I'm sure, yeah, as you mentioned your experience of eating in India, and you learn so much and everything's different, so it can be fascinating to experience not only different types of food but the culture of the country's food and how eating is practiced.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's fascinating and I'm learning by listening to your experience living in Japan and having foreign perspectives.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's almost boutique, like you go and just eat unagi and that's it. Or you go and have ramen and that's it, and then once you tap into it it's like, oh yeah, I really feel like ramen today. So you go and have a really delicious bowl of ramen, or you know it's a hot day and you have unagi. Or, if you've got lots of money, you go and have umakase at a really good sushi restaurant or something, and yeah, in australia we're pretty much at least two kind of dishes. You're expected to have an entree and have a main and within the one restaurant we can have all this diversity to our food. That's interesting and worthwhile, worthwhile and fun and meaningful too. But yeah, I really miss the food in Japan, so I'm getting hungry. And so another really interesting practice about, I guess, eating culture and I learnt on this podcast with another guest, sachiaki Takamiye is this mnemonic device or this phrase, mago wa yasashii? So would you like to touch on that, and is that something you also might include with Zen eating?
Speaker 1:It's interesting. I used to follow this before, I used to follow this before and again, I think it's a good starter for you to practice mindful eating. And so mago, mame, beans, sesame seed, seaweeds, vegetables, fish, mushrooms, potato.
Speaker 2:Yes, so each syllable represents a food type. So ma go wa yasashii really means your grandchildren are kind, or grandchildren are kind, but it's a mnemonic device. It's something to remember to think of. Ma means mame, which is beans, go means goma, which is sesame seeds, wa is wakame, which is seaweeds, ya is yasai for vegetables, sa is sakana for fish, shi is shitake for mushrooms, yi is for potato. So it's almost a vegan diet, apart from fish. Yes, so it's a very healthy diet, eating all these things like beans and seaweed vegetables.
Speaker 1:Yes, I personally don't follow Mago wa Yasashi anymore because I was over-obsessed with healthy diet and I know side effects of following healthy diet too much, because we are over-eating information and it sometimes makes confusion, and I was one of the person people that was confused by exposed to too many information related with healthy diet and I ended up traveling to india and learning nutrition, the traditional nutrition, which is in india for five thousand years or something and I realized that they were teaching me what to eat really micro diet, micro suggestions as well and I was following it and I realized like, ah, my body knows my body wisdom, my bodily intelligence knows what my body needs now, so I should apply meditative attitude to this rather than feeding my brain to know what is the ideal diet, what is the perfection of the healthy diet. I was seeking for some sort of perfect, ideal healthy diet, but I failed because there is no perfect, ideal diet for everyone. So I shifted my attitude to cultivate the skill, cultivate the knowledge, to tune into your bodily wisdom. So did I answer you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you did. I mean, it's more of a personal approach that suits you to eating that benefits all of you. Yes, rather than oh, I have to hit all these macro and micro markers of my diet and I've got to eat enough protein and I've got to only eat vegan or I'm a carnivore. I mean, I think one of the tragedies of being too strict on your diet is, I mean, you just can't learn about other cultures, I think without a willingness to embrace the food and if it's only a few meals, it's probably not going to have any significant damage on your body. But if you travel and you're thinking, oh, I can only eat vegan, and you're stressed trying to find vegan and asking the chefs to only give you vegan or something, it might cause you more emotional stress than the food would. But we also have to respect, I think, individual choice. But I do like this idea of stop fretting and worrying about the perfect diet and have a holistic approach to eating and consider not just the benefits of the food but how you feel in?
Speaker 2:the moment as you're eating and being reflective on how did this food get to me.
Speaker 1:Totally, but yes, to explore with playfulness. I think Magoayasashi is also helpful.
Speaker 2:It's a great rule of thumb to think about. How can I include all of these foods in my, you know, maybe my daily eating or my weekly eating? Yes, now, I mean, you've authored a book and you do workshops, so let's touch on your book first, and then we'll talk about your workshops and the people you impact. So tell me about your book, which you recently published, and is it in English or will it be in English?
Speaker 1:So I'm rewriting it from Japanese into English, but not directly translating it, and my team has translated it, but it will be published in English, hopefully in this year, 2024. And I published in Japanese, which has five chapters First, get ready your table, prepare your table to help yourself to be in alignment. And the second chapter is talking about five senses, as we discussed in the previous episode, to open up your body. I recommend you to wake up your five senses by starting with smelling and sensing temperature, texture and flavor, and enjoy the present moment by focusing on your five senses rather than remembering your experienced taste. So, having fresh eye, you may know how rice tastes, but having fresh eye, you are eating rice for the first time as, as you are eating your rice, the rice first time.
Speaker 1:So that's chapter two. And chapter three is talking about gut, stomach and gut. So gut feeling and wake up your body. Intelligence by talking with your gut. And number four is energy and connectivity. Imagine where this food came from and you are living in the cycle, and imagine that you are becoming tree of tea when you're drinking tea, so you can get when you're drinking tea, so you can get liveliness and energy by imagining that you are tea tree by drinking tea, a cup of tea. So that's chapter four, and chapter five is let go. I fell in love with Zen 14 years ago Sorry, 12 years ago. 14 years ago, sorry, 12 years ago. And so since then I have experienced a lot of beautiful beauty through zen. So letting go is what I love about zen and having enough paying attention to what you have. Those those things are in under Chapter 5. That's about Zen eating.
Speaker 2:It sounds like a book worth reading, so I look forward to the English version and maybe when that's ready you can come back on the podcast and we can release it to the world.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:So, yes, that's quite an achievement. Writing a book takes a lot of time and energy and love and reflection. So let's talk about workshops. So you offer workshops on Zen eating. Sure, what does that look like, and who do you offer these workshops to?
Speaker 1:Lately, I have been offering to entities like companies or organisations or events, conferences and also executive one-on-one sessions, sometimes as well that I do with people who is working professionals or leaders or people who has stress and wishing to have better relationship with themselves. So those are the ways that I contribute to the society.
Speaker 2:And how is it received? Because it's probably quite unusual if a boss said to their staff hey, we're going to do a Zen eating workshop to help us with our relationships or to help us feel better at work. What's the feeling? Is there some initial hesitation, or do people embrace this idea when they're in a workshop?
Speaker 1:I don't perceive any hesitation. So far I have been offering this to giant global corporations a lot and surprisingly they are open. They have open-minded, especially under the context of well-being, and so a lot of companies already have well-being approaches. So, under the concept of well-being, people can integrate this Zen eating into their work life as well. And it's really helpful for busy people because you can apply from 10 seconds just smelling before sipping a cup of tea, seconds just smelling before sipping a cup of tea, and so you can have better rest during your day, working day, and having self-awareness when you talk with your teammate by cultivating the relationship with yourself first, by deepening your experience of present moment, by practicing Zen eating. So and sometimes company applies as another context of psychological safety or mental health as well and sustainability. People are enjoying it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I guess it's a little bit unusual, but it's taking advantage of a daily habit we eat, so why not eat more mindfully? And it obviously has this benefit to your whole life. So when you do the workshops, do you do the catering? Does everyone eat the same food, or do you just work with the food that people have for lunch? What happens there?
Speaker 1:So you covered every pattern. Yes, I usually don't do catering. I ask someone to make something healthy, or they bring their own food. Especially during covid, people were attending on video calls, so people bring their own lunch or own snacks. That's good enough to practice and so that you can seamlessly practice from tomorrow as well. If you practice with fancy, amazing food, then you will start thinking that this experience was amazing because the food menu was amazing. But you are amazing already, so you don't have to prepare anything really, really special. So simpler food may be more applicable. Simpler food will be more better to practice.
Speaker 2:This is an 18 so it's not about the food. It's's about the way we want to eat healthy food, but it's the way we eat the presence of mind. Actually, I think I've seen you also offer workshops online. Yes, I think I've seen so. Is that something you also do? Do you offer group Zen eating workshops for individuals? Not really Zen eating workshops for individuals?
Speaker 1:Not really. I offer to individuals and conferences and companies and organisations.
Speaker 2:And yeah, you've worked with some pretty impressive companies, so that must be exciting to helping Google employees eat mindfully.
Speaker 1:So, yes, capitalization is changing from inside. I think it's interesting to see how human consciousness is changing now, in this era. I'm quite positive, I'm quite hopeful, optimistic about human, human future, future of humanity and future of the planet well, that is good and maybe because of what you do, we feel more optimistic.
Speaker 2:so, as you know, momo, this podcast is about the ikigai concept and I think food, I think food's like a universal source of Ikigai. Everyone can enjoy food, their favorite food, their comfort food, food from their childhood, food their grandmother cooked them, or food their mom or dad cooks them. But we can have many sources of Ikigai. So what are some of your ikigai sources? What makes your life feel worth living?
Speaker 1:Great question. Thank you, nick. I was talking about Zen eating for a whole time, but my answer is not about food, it's wider. My answer would be the moment that I feel oneness, the moment that I feel unity and connectedness. That makes me fulfilling. And so external activity can be eating. Food or time to eat is a way to tune into oneness and joy and bliss. So it helps me to think how amazing that I am able to eat, and so that I remind myself that don't take anything as granted and I can appreciate subtle things. Subtle things turns into gift, great gifts, when you tune into appreciation. So that gives me sense of fulfilling. And I would like to add one more thing. Recently I met Dalai Lama and he suggested me to help others. So that was heart-shaking for me. So helping others is becoming part of my ikigai. It's an important part of my ikigai. It's an important part of my ikigai. So how I can contribute to humanity and the planet will be my big part of ikigai.
Speaker 2:Nice, maybe your kokorozashi.
Speaker 1:Kokorozashi yes Kokorozashi. Kokorozashi, yes, kokorozashi.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful. Wow, so you met the Dalai Lama. Yes, in Damsho you had a conversation with him.
Speaker 1:Yes short.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's amazing. That could be another podcast episode.
Speaker 1:Actually.
Speaker 2:I have something to ask, because one of my ikigai is eating out with friends, catching up with friends over a meal, and so I think when we eat with friends, you know we're enjoying the food, we're enjoying the conversation, but I guess we're not very sometimes, we're not very mindful of the food and we just eat and munch and then ask a question or laugh. So can you still practice Zen eating when you're just going out to dinner with friends, or should you just separate that and think, well, I'll just go out and enjoy the meal and not worry too much about how mindful I'm being?
Speaker 1:You can, Totally you can. You can no boundaries. So maybe I may give all of you a practical tip.
Speaker 2:Please.
Speaker 1:Which is placing your cultural back on the table while listening to others in societal, communal meal. So while chewing, you can be aware that you are chewing and you are listening. So that can be something applicable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a really good idea. Actually, I think I heard chewing is so important, yes, that we chew, and we should chew much more. We should chew like 50 times for each piece of food, and so a good habit is to, once you've taken a bite, you put your cutlery down or your chopsticks down, until you've even count how many times you chew which might be a bit excessive, but I like that's very helpful. Put your cutlery down and listen between each bite.
Speaker 1:So that you can be a great listener.
Speaker 2:And that's a gift too. Listening to someone is a nice gift to give them. Yes, so I've enjoyed listening to you today, so thank you. So if people want to book you for a workshop or learn more about your work, where should they go online?
Speaker 1:Website of Zen Eating zen-eatingcom, and I have some social medias but it's not that active, so I appreciate it if you visit my website.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, we'll put a link to your website with the show notes. It's been a real joy to speak with you on this double episode my most son, so thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much Nick, son and everyone.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, we'll have you back on with the release of your book when it's in English, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Thank you Bye, thank you Bye.