The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Exploring Mieko Kamiya’s Contributions to Understanding Ikigai with Kei Tsuda
Have you heard of Mieko Kamiya and her contributions to the concept of ikigai?
Not known to many, Japanese researcher Mieko Kamiya committed to researching the concept of ikigai in-depth, making her works valuable for those seeking a deeper understanding of the concept.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick and Kei Tsuda delved into the remarkable contributions of Mieko Kamiya to the concept of ikigai.
The moment when I read the book and that section or the opening segment, it crystallized or confirmed, because even before reading the book, I was already going in the angle that I was telling my circle of friends and network that Ikigai is not a destination or this goal, it's something we feel. And I was saying it without getting any confirmation from anybody at that point, I see, but here she was and I said I got hooked, thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom. This is episode 83 of the Ikigai podcast. I am back with Kei Suda for this special double episode on the mother of Ikigai, miyako Kamiya. On the last episode, we talked about the life of Miyako Kamiya. On this episode, we will talk about her book, ikigai Nitsuite. Thanks for joining me, kei, good to see you.
Speaker 1:Good to see you. This is my favorite subject.
Speaker 2:Mine too. So, yes, we're talking about Ikigai ni Tsuite, the seminal book of Miyako Kamiya that was published in 1966. This book is often referenced in current day papers and Professor Hasegawa so Professor Akihira Hasegawa, who was the first guest on my podcast likes to refer to this book as the Ikigai Bible. So it's, yeah, still impacting people or researchers 50 years on more than 50 years on.
Speaker 1:yes, Now.
Speaker 2:Writing was a lifelong ambition for Camere, but one she was unable to pursue until the late years of her life. And on September 7th 1961, upon completing the first draft of her book, she wrote in her diary I have been feverishly writing for 10 days. I have more or less finished writing the first draft. All that had been bottled up in my mind is now out, and I feel a great weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I feel that I could die without regret. I'm so grateful for the health of my family and body. This is quite a powerful diary entry. Do you think this indicates that writing was her? Ikigai Kei?
Speaker 1:Most certainly I think that's her way of of Ikigai in such a I don't know what very expansive in terms of the topic coverage, and I believe that this book only covers a portion of what she was planning to share.
Speaker 2:But yeah, you kind of feel the excitement from this quote and how satisfied she is and, as we know from the previous episode, she had all these health problems, so I guess at the time of writing the book she must have felt she was in good health. So with the title, let's touch on it. In Japanese, tsute means about concerning, as to regarding, so a literal translation of her book title would be About Ikigai or On Ikigai. How do you think the title of the book would be translated today?
Speaker 1:I think the title is quite effective even today. Yeah, and we both know, right, we've read a number of her publications and it kind of represents her style of writing and position she takes in a dialogue that she has with the readers. It conveys the notion that this author wants to keep the interpretation up, you know, to be kept open or up to us, and also the you know about ikigai means it kind of tickles your mind, right, it's like what about ikigai? So I think there's shortness to the point and openness for interpretation. That's something quite effective even today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good point, because it's very hard to read midashi like newspaper headlines and sometimes book titles because I guess a lot of people put great effort into book titles because it's almost like a form of marketing, like we need to sell this book so we come up with an interesting or intriguing title. But this one's very simple, regarding Ikigai or On Ikigai, about Ikigai, on Ikigai, about Ikigai. So I like the title, I could read it, and when I first started reading this book, I mean I hadn't read Japanese for a long time, so it did require a lot of relearning.
Speaker 2:I've got lots of notes scribble highlights, and I'm sort of still working through this. I managed to get an audio book version as well, which really helped, but when did you first read this book and how has it impacted you so?
Speaker 1:I read the book for the first time just past year, so that makes you the senpai. You've come to it and been referencing to it for much longer than I have, and it was an eye-opening moment Because, you know, I've read other books done by the Western authors on Ikigai. But here it is. You know, 50 or more years ago, a researcher by the name of Miyako Kamiya has written a book simply titled about Ikigai, and the depth and the breadth of the topic coverage was just, you know, burned on. There's nothing else out there. No, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, for me reading it was a real challenge but also all the references to other researchers or poets or artists or psychologists or psychiatrists or philosophers. I was like how does she know all this information? Like she must have read so much. Back then, you know, obviously she didn't have access to something like the internet. And I had to start looking up all these French and German and Japanese names, trying to find out who she was referring to.
Speaker 1:She must have had, right, this stack of books, probably in her reach Plus. Through her connections and network she must have had people or library systems that she had access to. She can lay her hands on all these books and publications. Yeah, I mean I didn't count, but there are literally probably hundreds of books and things that she is citing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was going to say her citation is quite extensive, but clearly writing was something she loved. She also kept a diary and she wrote other books, but this was her first book and perhaps the most impactful, and in the conclusion of the book, kamiya wrote that it took her around seven years to finish the book. Do you want to touch on that?
Speaker 1:And I can believe it too. And also she mentions that the amount of material she had written to publish this book was about twice as much as the book itself. So it must have been such a long, arduous process for her to make sure that okay which other topics she would like to highlight and maybe leave out. So that process must have taken quite a long time. And she also mentioned that there was a very significant gap time, yeah, the time that she had the materials kind of put together or come together and she had to pause for like a couple, a couple of years or something, then finally got back to it and, you know, carried it through the finish line. You know there must have been some other right life situations that may have been impacting, but the process I can, I can appreciate that that she's going through. It's so clear that she's looked at, I think, each of the topics from at least two, if not three different angles and probably chosen the one that felt the best or right for her, yeah, and published it.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think for me, I think I got clarity when I understood it didn't take her seven years to write per se. It sounded like she wrote the first draft fairly quickly, but then she took this break. I think she was busy with other things. But, yeah, she also wanted to do more research or get these different perspectives, and then I guess this process of editing took a while.
Speaker 1:It surely took some time.
Speaker 2:So that's quite a long time. I wrote a book and it took me a year and I had, you know, a really good editor, so I'm not sure if she had an editor or if she did the editing herself.
Speaker 1:I think she does mention towards the end of the book some brief thanks to the person who was involved in editing.
Speaker 1:But who knows how much of it right, the person may have just done a look over for the grammar and those kind of editing rather than the content-based editing. Another thing that jumped out for me is how she was really a study of the current affairs at the time too. She takes into account all of what's going on in the world, not just in Japan but in the world, in the politics, the war and other aspects of things, and although she does not bring out those content too much in the main chapters of the book itself, but you can tell that the person who's kind of putting this together is studying what's going on in and around the times that she lived, yeah, together, is studying what's going on in and around the times that she lived yeah, so it wasn't. So it's that the writing is not coming from somebody who's really focused on one, one type of research. So it's not a research paper. It's got more like a little bit of an essay type of feeling to it and a story telling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I chatted you the other day about how she referenced the life of Florence Nightingale and she obviously drew parallels to her life and Florence Nightingale is known as the lady with the lamp and she changed the perception of the nursing profession from one that was almost considered equivalent to prostitution to something that's a meaningful profession and she introduced all these practices of hygiene. So she was like another pioneering woman and I was like, wow, you know, this book goes beyond the subject of ikigai. It sort of explores ikigai in different perspectives, angles and almost case studies of other people. What's interesting? I do get people often saying, oh nick, is there a translation? Or, you know, do you think it would be ever translated? And I think it'll probably have to be summarized rather than translated, because it would be quite hard to read and get through because most people would not know all the references.
Speaker 1:So hopefully the publisher will do some sort of summary and maybe modernise it for today's reader yeah, and in that summary also has to be made by somebody who understands, like psychology or positive psychology of today and hopefully, you know, bringing their knowledge to clarify certain points as they do it.
Speaker 2:Yes, so let's move on to the introduction in her book. So in the introduction of her book, kamiya presents the theme that there is suffering with people all over the world and people sort of wake up, dreading the thought and act of just waking up every morning Doesn't sound too good. And then she prompts the reader with two questions, I guess, to consider what makes us feel that life is worth living each and every day and how do we find a new Ikigai if we have lost our reason to live. And so that's quite a powerful opening to say look, millions of people are, you know, waking up, dreading just the thought of waking up and facing each day. And then these two questions of what makes us feel that life is worth living each and every day and how do we find a new ikigai if we've lost our reason to live. Yeah, I remember first reading the book and sort of translating and working out those two questions, I thought, wow, these are profound, sort of significant questions. Do you think Japanese contemplate these questions when they think of Ikigai?
Speaker 1:Probably not right. Generally speaking, in today's Japan, much as the rest of the world, you know. I mean it's kind of important to also highlight the timeframe. When Miyako Kamiya was asking this question was the mid-1900s. You know, after the war economy is growing, especially in Japan. You know things are getting busy. I mean, we've gone up a number of ups and downs but with all the technology and other advancements that we've made, we are still in the same situation. In some cases we may be in worse situations.
Speaker 1:When it comes to this point, when you wake up, what is the first thing you do is the question right? So we already touched on some people you know having that, you know addicted to devices. But yeah, if you go, reach out for your smartphone and start checking for the what kind of notifications you received the previous night while you're sleeping, I don't think you'll have the mindset to ask these questions. No Right.
Speaker 1:So the only people who ask these questions, regardless of them being Japanese or you know where they are, are the people who are able to develop that habit, maybe having the morning rituals to have a, you know somewhat of a meditation session or stay away from those devices. And you know, in my case, I try to prepare my coffee, yeah, and then I as I prepare it. You know, preparing the coffee doesn't take much effort for me but then I spend that time thinking, okay, what do I need to accomplish today? I spend that time thinking, okay, what do I need to accomplish today, and how does that relate to my Ikigai or how does that, you know, align to what I'm trying to accomplish in the future? Even then, I don't do that every day.
Speaker 2:No, no, yeah, yeah, that's really important to make that time for ourselves, either in the morning or evening, or ideally both times of the day, to think I, I have another day to do something with, but we seem to live on automatic and technologies everywhere. So it's, you know, I just I don't think it's just young people who go to bed with their phones. It seems everyone now does this. I think so too. Yeah, it's certainly not healthy.
Speaker 1:The problem is, the phone also acts as a lot of people's alarm clock nowadays, so you have to reach to it right to even stop it. But now then you're going to have to fight against your urge to look at the screen and start checking the push notifications.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's also an irony that many people use their phones because of meditation apps, and you'd think meditation would sort of rule out any external device to help you meditate. So it's an uphill battle, I think.
Speaker 1:Maybe here's a suggestion for the meditation app companies. When you install one of those, it automatically turns off other push notifications.
Speaker 2:That would be ideal. It turns off other push notifications. That would be ideal. It turns off. Yeah, I remember also reading on the question two how do we find a new ikigai if we've lost our reason to live? And I remember she described a loss of ikigai as a collapse of one's value system and initially I was trying to make sense of what does she mean? But then it kind of later made sense, like if your ikigai is a person you love and you know they die, or you're in a relationship with them and you find out, you know, let's say, they're cheating on you, you would have this collapse of your values. If you valued love, to trust, honesty, kindness, you'd almost feel like losing them has violated you and your belief in these values. So she really challenged I think she must have challenged the readers at the time with these ideas of losing Ikigai and what it means. And then, how do you find a new one?
Speaker 2:and what it means to feel a life is worth living, not you know, every day, not this idea of destination addiction that you know we've become, I guess, addicted to today, this idea. I'll be happy when I've achieved this or when I have certain material success. So, yeah, reading a book was a real challenge, but very eye-opening. And then for me, this big distinction came with her definition of ikigai and how she tied it to ikigai-kan, and so she offers a two-part definition. I think it's her most recognized contribution to ikigai literature. So let's have a look at how she defined it.
Speaker 2:She wrote there are two ways of using the word ikigai. When someone says this child is my ikigai, it refers to the source or target of ikigai. When someone says this child is my ikigai, it refers to the source or target of ikigai. And when one feels ikigai is a state of mind, the latter of these is close to what Frankl calls sense of meaning. Here I will tentatively call it ikigai kan to distinguish it from the former ikigai. So I mean probably reading that or listening to that, it's a little bit complicated. Yeah, it's a little bit. What's the word? Like katai, it's a little bit hard to process.
Speaker 2:But she's saying you have sources of meaning in your life or sources of ikigai in your life experiences, people, relationships, dreams, hobbies and even memories that make your life worth living. And then Ikigai Kan represents the emotions and feelings that these sources provide you to make you feel that life is worth living. And so I think what I understood is, according to Kamiya, the power of Ikigai lies in the positive and satisfying emotions that result from being able to identify your Ikigai sources and subsequently you know, you experience a deep and genuine sense of meaning associated with your life experience. So that was a big realization for me, like the first in the book. There's Ikigai and Ikigai-kan, and Ikigai is something you feel. So did you know this intuitively before even reading the book?
Speaker 1:I'd like to say yes, but the moment when I read the book in that section or the opening segment, it crystallized or confirmed Because even before reading the book, I was already going in the angle that I was telling my circle, friends and network that Ikigai is not a destination or this goal, it's something we, you know, we feel right. And I was saying it without, uh, getting any confirmation from anybody at that point, I see. But here she was and I said I got hooked, thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 2:What does your family so obviously probably your family know? You've got this interest in Ikigai. You're researching it, you're studying it, You're producing content on it. Have you shared it with your mother and your wife and your daughters? And, if you have, what are their sort of reaction?
Speaker 1:So I know my daughters and my wife have what are their sort of reaction. So I know my daughters and my wife follows the content time to time. Okay, my mother, you know she would, but then of course she's of the age that she doesn't necessarily want to get on internet or learn how to use. You know, our special mobile phones in Japan for the aged folks that has internet connectivities, but she's never used that part. Okay, how much of this Ikigai perspective is with people who really were, you know, growing up around the same time that the Miyako Kamiya was growing up? Because I kind of want to know the differences in perspectives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it would be helpful. That's something maybe we could explore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so maybe we may find an opportunity to find some retirees and other folks who may be willing to talk to us, nick, and maybe have a conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd like to do that because I do remember reading one quote that for younger people, ikigai is more associated to passion and as you get older it's more associated to this sort of internal, continuous sense of calmness, and that that sort of makes sense. I think when we're young, we're, we're ambitious, we want to do things and change things within ourselves or around us, maybe even the world. Then, as we get older, we we kind of realize oh it's, it's not just these bursts of excitement and passion. Having this grounded sense of calmness and this continuous sense of life satisfaction, you know, makes life feel worth living.
Speaker 1:But then that calmness may come from, you know, the retirees or people who may have accomplished something, you know, in their previous part of their life. So if people feel that they haven't had the chance to do so, they still have this, you know, fire in their mind or the willpower to accomplish something, and that will come through as a passion, I think, into the old age.
Speaker 2:I've known friends like that and also I've seen people like that too. Yeah, I've still got plenty of passion, so I'm still wanting to do quite a few things, so hopefully find a nice balance between those two types of Ikigai perceptions. So, moving on on Episode 77, we introduced the characteristics of ikigai, but only touched on one of them, and you spoke about how ikigai holds this nature of establishing a value system in the heart or the mind of the person who possesses it. So if our listeners haven't listened to that episode, we recommend you do. But in this episode I thought it'd be helpful to touch on all of them. So can you share your translations of her six characteristics of Ikigai?
Speaker 1:I can certainly do that, so here they go. Number one ikigai is something you feel, so that's the point we already discussed. Number two it's often experienced when we engage in activities we enjoy, such as playing without a specific goal or outcome, and that last part is very important goal or outcome.
Speaker 2:And that last part is very important, just before you move on. That's where I guess we would describe the intrinsic nature, or we could associate ikigai to intrinsic motivation doing things simply because you enjoy doing them.
Speaker 1:Right, and you know I may touch on this later too. But again, the apps we find on our phone, they are not intrinsic in terms of this sense of playing. It's usually goals associated with it. So then that's the issue Number three. It comes with spontaneity. You do it because you want to. So it is kind of tied to the point number two just to touch on the japanese there.
Speaker 2:So the the expression yari tai kara yaru, like I, I do it because I want to. Yeah, that's um kind of also reminds me of a little bit of like almost yari gai, like yes, it's something worth doing, something.
Speaker 1:You do it because it's rewarding in and of itself yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think this is the point that we covered in the previous podcast, right, this and the next one. So number four, ikigai is individualistic. You can't borrow it or imitate others. It must suit your expression of your authentic self.
Speaker 2:So that would tie it to your values as well, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And that's why I think it's very hard to imitate. That's why I think it's very hard to imitate. And even if you pursue the same values, how you kind of feel ikigai, I think, is going to be different, based on, again, your upbringing, the experience and so on and so forth. So there are situations, right, that you may feel as though you share ikigai with someone, and that is true, it does happen. But then are you really sharing the same exact ikigai with this other person? Chances are, it's probably not the case. And to kind of explain that, she goes on to say ikigai establishes a value system to identify and prioritize your Ikigai-kan based on your priorities. So it's not a single thing, it is a system. And what are the likelihood of, like Nick, you and I sharing the same value system? Yeah, on the surface maybe there are some. We both like to research Ikigai, but then as we kind of dig deeper down, I think we're going to start to notice the differences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this one kind of made me realize like, wow, this is the depth and breadth of Ikigai. It establishes a value system. You know, it's like okay and right it changes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it changes over the course of your life and that's what the most intriguing point that I'm trying to research now and come up with ways to explain. Okay, if you are, you know, 20-something, ikigai could the system could look, maybe more simple, hopefully, but then as you get older, you might become even more complex. But then there are things that we, the researchers, may be able to do to help people, to keep things simple. I think that's one of the challenges to keep things simple. I think that's one of the challenges. When things get overcomplicated, it starts to kind of lose its value. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And then the final one kind of talks about that complexity a little bit. So Ikigai creates a unique spiritual world. So it's not even just a system, it creates a world where we can each realize our own order. Clarity, unity, stability and harmony Kind of expanded that piece. The Japanese doesn't go into too much, but I think in the Western world this world could be tied to things like okay, how do you make sense out of things, how do you bring clarity to your mind? Or how do you feel your body and mind is unified, feel stable, and then create this harmonious feeling or situation?
Speaker 2:I think I remember reading, in relation to five and six, this idea that once you have a clear understanding of your Ikigai, it's then very easy for you to make decisions about your life and decisions on how you spend your time, because you basically know, because you have a value system behind these choices related to your Ikigai sources, whereas if you have plenty of time and maybe plenty of resources, but you're struggling as you know what should I do.
Speaker 2:I'm bored. All the time I find myself watching Netflix or scrolling social media. It would probably indicate we haven't really uncovered meaningful sources of ikigai.
Speaker 1:Or you may, it's just that it's not enough to fill your time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, does that then bring out this idea of a thought about that? We need to also nurture our ikigai sources. We need to give them time and care, and almost treat them with respect.
Speaker 1:Well, that and the fact that the people can have and again, this is my personal opinion, but people may want to look into multiple sources of Ikigai, and this goes towards. You know we may have a discussion a little later on but when you feel the loss of Ikigai, if you have multiple Ikigai, then you may have a little bit easier time, kind of you know, switching it or applying it or bringing back, making one more prioritized than the other to be more resilient in a given situation. If you only have one single Ikigai, then when that one thing goes, then you're going to have a tougher time finding a new one or replacing it.
Speaker 2:It's interesting how Japanese have described ikigai, because we know Ken Moggy describes it as a spectrum of small things, small joys, to the pursuit of meaningful goals. And then I was listening to a podcast with two Japanese who were discussing Ikigai, and they obviously planned the episode because one of the I think the guests came up with this idea of describing you have salad Ikigai. So these are Ikigai sources that are sort of good for you, either for your health or your mental health, but they're a bit challenging. They might be associated to your work or volunteer and that you would not consciously be thinking all the time that this is my ikigai, but there would be moments where you think, oh, actually I really enjoy my work because it connects me to people. You know this work is challenging, but I like the challenge, it's meaningful.
Speaker 2:And then he described that you had snack or okashi, like okashi ikigai. So you'd have snack ikigai, which could be these small joys of you know, maybe eating ice cream or playing computer games that aren't really healthy for you, but they bring you moments of joy. So I thought that was a really interesting way for you know the Japanese are saying this is how I perceive ikigai You've got these sort of meaningful sources of ikigai that require more energy and time and they're better for your health and for your growth. But you can also have these almost unhealthy snack types of ikigai sources that just bring you joy in the moment. So, yeah, even how japanese describe ikigai is often unique.
Speaker 1:One more concept, kind of tied to what you just described, maybe to keep ikigai approachable. If it's this one and only thing, it becomes such a high hurdle for people to cross and apply it to their life. So we really have to think how Ikigai has been around in Japan for so long. It's not because it's this one thing and it's such a, you know, hard thing to achieve. It's because it can be interpreted into something. It's a lot more easier to approach and practice into something. It's a lot more easier to approach and practice and then by doing so right over time, and if some people can spend the time to understand more about, you know, the different characteristics that we just went through, or what impacts right, the Ikigai sources and the feelings then they can get. I don't know, maybe the easiest way to say it is get better at using ikigai as part of their life practices.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with you. What's really interesting is I did find a Japanese author and maybe you know him. His name is Tsukasa Kobayashi. He wrote a book called I think it's Ikigai Nanika Jitsugen no Dori or something, and initially Gordon Matthews referenced his work in his book and he wrote that you know, your ikigai is not your work, that's hataraki gai, and your ikigai is not your play, it's asbi Gai.
Speaker 2:And he sort of real Ikigai only comes from self-actualization and he directly related it to the growth need of Maslow's hierarchy of needs and yeah, it kind of weighed me down. I thought, oh, that makes it sort of impossible to achieve for most people. And so I like his perspective, like I appreciate the perspective that he has that perspective, but I really thought it makes it suddenly heavy and unapproachable almost, because he's saying you have to go beyond all these things of love and the satisfaction of all those needs of belonging and acceptance and then only from there can you pursue ikigai or, you know, find your ikigai or reach ikigai. So it almost seemed like a Western interpretation from a Japanese scholar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it almost sounds like the Maslow's hierarchy.
Speaker 2:It was yeah, yeah, almost sounds like the like that the maslow's uh hierarchy or what. Yeah he, he actually uses the um, he actually has a diagram in his book and he sort of equates ikigai to self-actualization and a lot of reference to foreign psychologists or even business leaders in his book.
Speaker 1:But then that's what it is, isn't it? It's part of the reason why I think the Ikigai is still very going strong in terms of people interested in learning and practicing is that it's something you can't truly visualize and, you know, turn it into like a Western structure, so to speak. There's something about it that needs to leave again space for interpretation by the individuals or, you know, add your own culture here type of approach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good point, it is a universal concept. But there is this, yeah, like add your own culture here type of approach. Yeah, that's a good point, it is a universal concept, but there is this yeah, it kind of adapts to, I guess, culture of the culture where people are from. But I was a bit shocked that it came from a Japanese writer.
Speaker 1:I found the book so I might get a used copy, because I don't think it's in print anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's Ikigai Towa Nanika Jitsugane no Michi, and I mean the title kind of reveals, because Jitsugane means what Jiko Jitsugane means, yeah, self-actualization, so the path to self-actualization. So that reveals, I guess, guess, his take on ikigai. So there's plenty of books on ikigai in japanese, but they all seem to be written between the 60s and 80s.
Speaker 1:yeah, well, actually I'll try to find a book, uh at the library while I'm here.
Speaker 2:Well, good luck with that. Yeah, so lots of reading for you and still lots of reading for me. So let's go back to Kamiya's work. And when she began writing her book, she wrote in her diary on the 14th of February 1960, the following Okay, I've been writing all day on Ikigai Nitsuhite. Still I am not making much progress. I've been thinking and writing a lot. Sometimes I am troubled by self-loathing. I'm so bored, I wonder if it's worth it. I can't catch a break these days. And I was really shocked when I stumbled upon this diary entry. Actually, I think my wife found it for me and I was like is that right?
Speaker 2:So she struggled with writing at times, so this book must have been a challenge for her too. So I think this reveals the existential nature of Ikigai, that just because something is meaningful, it doesn't mean it's going to be easy in her case, writing a book. So that's another important point. Ikigai might push you maybe what we've just touched on to self-actualise at times, to challenge yourself, and it won't always be easy. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1:Well, she does say like I'm so bored, but at the same time right if I can kind of connect the timeline on this she's already collected the materials to write about this book.
Speaker 1:So I think she's been rereading those materials and other works probably hers and reading those materials that she's already written is probably impacting a morale a bit. It's like I already wrote this. What am I going to do with this? And that's why I already wrote this. What am I going to do with this? And that's why I really appreciate this book, because you can kind of tell or feel that the number of iterations she may have gone through to come up with each of the sections, based on, again, a lot of other ideas and materials that she's kept and that may be kind of hidden in this diary entry. Yeah, because we sometimes get bored when we have to review our own work. It's like, oh, I know this, I've done it, but then she's trying to create something that she's so used to seeing, but then she has to put it together in a shape that others can appreciate.
Speaker 2:I think writing a book is a real challenge. When you get to the editing stage and you have to decide what to keep, you realize this area, this section, needs more work and progress can just go so slow. And then you begin to doubt and you've you've spent all this time writing a book. And then you're at this point where you think, yeah, is it worth it? Like what I've written doesn't even make sense. You have all these doubts and it's like, oh um, so I can't imagine. Yeah, I can't imagine she went through these periods of boredom or frustration. I mean, I I kind of have this magical perception of it, but at the end of the day, she was a real human being. So she must have had these moments where she got frustrated.
Speaker 1:She had her ups and downs and now we know that this she may have thinking, have been thinking in french first perhaps yes, and tried to translate into japanese added a layer of complexity to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so she had all these ups and downs in her diary entries. But despite these struggles, perhaps more than anything in her life, writing gave Kamiya her strongest experience of Ikigai Kan, and there's another quote from her diary that kind of backs this up. So this is how much longer almost like a year, more than a year longer, like a year and a half longer September 11th 1961, she wrote I could almost say that I had been living just to write this book. What surprise, joy and awe I felt as I gradually came to discover that I had never even really imagined the possibility that the meaning of my life would be someday gradually revealed to me in this way. So obviously she's having a really good day here. She's really, you know, really feeling this incredible sense of life satisfaction, life meaning, from writing this book. So I think her diary entries are a good reminder that Ikigai is all about the powerful emotions that make life feel worth living, and obviously Ikigai Kan is what we want to experience.
Speaker 1:And I think we both can relate to her statement as we live today. I think In your case, you did write a book and I haven't written a book. If I decide to do that, I'll reach out to your neck for some help but this clearly tells us that as she was writing the book, she was connecting the dots in her own life and starting to make sense out of it the dots in her own life and starting to make sense out of it. So it makes absolute sense to me, because that's what we do when we are reading this book and at least when I'm trying to come up with a new blog post or feature one of you know, the Miyako Kamiya's statements and then putting my own thoughts. That's what happens is not only I'm coming up with a story, but I'm actually confirming a piece of my life and how it relates to this. You know, ikigai concept.
Speaker 2:I agree totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, no, I think we've both said our Ikigai's sort of, or one of our ikigai is researching ikigai and sharing ikigai. And so I think you're right. Obviously here she's conveying that writing this book is my ikigai, it's become my ikigai. And what surprise, joy and awe I I felt as I gradually became to discover that and this is a a realization for her on this particular day. But I'm sure she she felt it strongly as she was progressing through her book, except on those days where she was frustrated. So, yeah, it really does make us, or makes me, feel Ikigai doesn't mean it's always going to be wonderful and joyful that if our Ikigai source is really meaningful, there will be moments where we're challenged and we have to push through. If it's something related to, I guess, our work or, you know, a hobby or practice we really care about, and this is why I'm always cautious about.
Speaker 2:We should not equate ikigai just to happiness. It's. It's far more, it's broader and more deeper to just the emotion of happiness. It has kind of many emotions and they're, I guess they depend on who you are, you know, and what your ikigai sources. And going back to that characteristic that every person's ikigai is unique, you know, ikigai is individualistic and it's an expression of yourself, of your authentic self, so I've shared a few quotes. Okay, how about you? I know we talked about you pulling out some interesting sections from her book, so would you like to do that now? Sure thing.
Speaker 1:I do have to refer to some of the notes that I took on this one. So one part. It's not a quote per se, it's more of a short description of how she describes some of the ikigai concept. She uses this term called okuyuki no aru kokoro. The English translation would be something like a profound hurt or mind or mind, but the okuyuki has to do with, again, the sense of space and depth, both.
Speaker 1:So by using or coming up with this kind of description, she's kind of influencing, especially the Japanese readers, that there's this breath and a space within our mind that can hold that world that we speak of. It can create a world because there's space, and not only that. She goes on to discuss about time in this book too, but not to mix the two together, I'll just stick to the spatial nature of it. And then she goes on to say that there is this depth of experience and how we can basically experience it and differs by people, but the more deeper you can experience some situation, the deeper your mind or the heart becomes. And she's kind of suggesting, I think, that the more life experiences you have probably both ups and downs, good and bad that your mind will start to grow its space. You can hold a lot more say, either the system or the world that you create with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this I mean, even just now, realizing reading the kanji okoyuki. So oku is like the depth of a house or a location and yuki is, I guess, from, from the verbiq like to go there how far you can kind of go into the back end, so to speak. Yeah, like okoyuki, and I know space is a really important cultural aspect to japanese culture. We have these words like either or ma, like you know, silence or depth or right? In between space.
Speaker 1:Ibasho can also be spatial or also within your mind so there, I guess there is some advantage for me.
Speaker 2:Being like a you know, non-japanese, like being able to understand some kanji, gives me this perspective. I was like, oh okay, yeah, this quote you've put up, or this line, does add this element of the yeah, depth and space, because Ikigai has also been researched in the context of time, that it's temporal, so you have past sources of Ikigai, current and future, and the learning never ends, you know, yeah, so you've helped me sort of learn that even in more depth today by pulling out this line.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then Miyako Kamiya herself brings in that timeline aspect in this book too, right. And one other thing I noticed is that the later that this book becomes somewhat harder to read, even for the Japanese, because, again, the things are highly conceptual. Also, right, it is somewhat written in the older tone of Japanese writing. People don't write like this today. I don't think Most of the newer papers are more, you know, succinct and kind of a modern way of explaining things. So there's the concept I also picked up that I want to share is the concept of okay, how do you basically change your structure of the mind? And she discusses two keywords. One's called shakaika is basically socialization, and the other one is lekshika. Lekshi is history. So I had to look it up. I think there is a word, or could be a made up word, called history-cization, and these two keywords also kind of works pretty well with this Ikigai concept, because you and I both know that the Ikigai.
Speaker 1:There is also other constructs like the first person, second person, third person, even though Miyako Kamiya doesn't necessarily bring that up. The way to actually enlarge your ikigai-kan typically is to start within yourself and with your family. That would be more like a second person. But at the end of the day you want to impact the community, the society, the world that would be the third person. Want to impact the community, the society, the world that would be the third person. And that is the socialization aspect.
Speaker 1:And with socialization usually comes more of a spatial considerations too. So she may have been relating to the fact that she was traveling so far to meet with the Libras, right, I mean, that's the spatial considerations. To meet with the Libras, right, I mean that's the spatial considerations. But then she brings up another strong point of historicization, or how we, the people, have tendency to make sense out of the experience and within the historical context. So you don't think of it when you're going through the experience. But then looking back and kind of correlating your experience with maybe others or the events that may have taken place in the world, you may start making the connection to come up with this meaning that in turn starts to kind of align to your ikigai ka. So these are important concepts that I've never actually came across before that. She introduced it to me anyway, and I'm sure there are other researchers today who are, to your point, researching this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually Dr Shintaro Kono comes to mind because he came up with this theory of hokose life directionality, and he talks about the three temporal aspects, at least from a personal perspective. But he talks about how you can redefine the past. You know, once you've lived through it, you've had this distance from it, but you can get to some clarity where you realize you know both these positive and negative past experiences still have some connection to me now and hopefully it's a positive connection. You know you learned from a mistake or you recovered from trauma and now you're more resilient and you have this opportunity to redefine your past and you can almost feel differently about a past event that maybe was difficult. Now, with a different lens.
Speaker 1:So I do have my best shot translation of Mirko Kamiya's explanation of these concepts right. So socialization, the way she explains, is even when facing death in a solitary cell, even when confined to an island with a disabled body I think she's referring to leapers here when one realizes that their life is a part of all humanity and that they bear meaning and responsibility to everyone, they can lift their head high and live their life with dignity. That's the concept of socialization, eloquently said in Kamiya's words. Historicization is she also kind of mentions this as socialization over an extended timeline. So in this realm of mind, expansiveness stretches not only across space but also along the axis of time, unfolding far-reaching vistas from the past to one's distant future, even beyond one's own demise. The past to one's distant future, even beyond one's own demise. Within this context, by being aware of one's role and contribution to life, one finds both purpose and significance in living and even in facing death. Powerful, it is powerful. These are the times I think like. Why wasn't this book ever translated?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think this should be read at every high school, Like this should be standard reading, also be a really good book, I think. To give you know young women, like young Japanese women, here's someone who's achieved so much and, by all perception, was incredibly successful, but still, despite all this success, she still had this desire to write and she pursued that and achieved that and found meaning in that, despite all her struggles. That, and found meaning in that, despite all of her struggles. I was wondering if the socialization aspect in any way relates to the term itai kan.
Speaker 1:I think it does. It does Because, in a way, what she's saying is you can start to find meaning by aligning yourself to the society or community or the group of people and once you realize that, that you are part of it, then you know there is a better way to consider your existence and the life affirmation you know should come from it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I asked because Gordon Matthews wrote about that in his book and he kind of made this argument. He interviewed 52 Japanese and 52 Americans, essentially asking what is your ikigai? He had to obviously structure it in English and what he learned was for the Japanese, you know, it was this important cultural concept of value related to ikigai. You know that ikigai is very much attached to your social world. But many of the Japanese he spoke to also had this desire for jikojitsu, again, like this self-realisation.
Speaker 2:And then when he spoke to the Americans it became clear that yeah, being individualistic and having the chance to self-realization. And then when he spoke to the Americans it became clear that yeah, being individualistic and having the chance to self-actualize was something they associated to Ikigai. But for some of them, secretly, they also sought out they wanted this sense of community or groupness, sort of suggesting they wanted it taikan, so what was culturally appropriate or available to each culture. Some secretly wanted the opposite of what they had and Japanese wanting to self-actualise and be individualistic. And some Americans found that too hard and they wanted to be more group-orientated in their life. So that was an interesting insight. But Gordon and Matthews kind of maintained that Ikigai is very much attached to your social world and for many people it was a question of love and family or personal growth and work, which still rings true today, I think.
Speaker 1:I think it is still true. At the same time, I think this technology and the connectedness is changing. The older we are today, we were less exposed to the connected devices and the apps and the gaming world online gaming that is. So our concept of, I think, society, connections and first, second, third person may not be the same as the people who are growing up right now.
Speaker 2:You know in their teens.
Speaker 1:They might see those you know definitions and say well, my first person includes my family and second person is this circle of friends all in one world. I connected with my, you know, in a game gaming world. Then what becomes the third person?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wonder if we need to make a distinction though, because I think there's. There's obviously a big difference between in-person connection and technology, the connection we can feel from technology and I mean we haven't met in person. We've established a friendship, we trust we're going to be doing things together and, you know, I'm sure there's these mutual positive feelings. So technology has been incredibly beneficial for our relationship.
Speaker 2:But I'm sure once we meet in person, we're probably going to have a stronger sense of each other and more positive emotion so it'd be interesting to see if we could bring camia back to life and expose her to the current world, how she would interpret technology and its influence on ikigai, and how much ikigai can you feel from, I guess, what we might call this artificial connection or this connection through, I guess artificial means, connection through, I guess artificial means. So, and yeah, you're right where we're leaning more and more towards that and many pros and cons.
Speaker 1:Life is always both, isn't it? Something positive, something negative. They come together.
Speaker 2:Indeed. So on that note I think we should end. So I'd like to end from a quote from my book to wrap up on the life and work of Mirko Kamiya. So here I go. As a pioneering researcher and author on the Hikigai concept, kamiya was ahead of her time, contemplating purpose and life meaning decades before the positive psychology movement of the early 2000s, all while juggling teaching, translation, parenting and domestic duties. She is not only one of the most remarkable women of 20th century Japan, to use the words of her biographer, yuzo Ota, but also a visionary whose name should be recognized among the likes of Abraham Maslow, viktor Frankl, martin Seligman and Christopher Peterson. It is a tragedy that Kami's significant contribution to the Ikigai concept has not been translated for consumption by a global audience. Perhaps the increasing popularity of the Ikigai concept will eventually see her receive the recognition she deserves, and I think we'll both agree that she deserves far more recognition globally, and probably in Japan, than she is currently receiving.
Speaker 1:I agree and I think she can send a positive message to everyone, but especially those people who are eager to extend their professional lives within Japan, being a mother or female. Yes she's an inspirational figure that spread her work and her life to the rest of the world.
Speaker 2:As much as we can, kay, absolutely, and that's what's connected us to begin with, right Indeed, so I've often thought this might be a conversation for another time, but she had children. Perhaps her children had children. I wonder, yeah, what they know of her work, her grandchildren assuming there are any, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you're coming up with a research assignment for both of us, right?
Speaker 2:Find the children of her or her grandchildren. Yeah, anyway, that could be another project.
Speaker 1:Yes, that would be a project.
Speaker 2:I might need your help with that. Awesome, kay. So I'm actually catching up with you next month, so I'm looking forward to that, and we might be doing retreats together, so that's exciting. So we'll keep that. I won't say too much about that now, but I'm sure it's going to happen. So thank you for all your support and help and look forward to meeting you in person in a week or so no worries, mate, and have a safe trip over to japan.
Speaker 1:Thank you, cheers, bye now.