The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Unlocking Purpose and Leadership through Japanese Philosophy with Katie Anderson
Unlock the secrets to leading a purpose-driven life with internationally acclaimed consultant, leadership coach, and best-selling author Katie Anderson. Dive into Katie's heartfelt reflections on her sources of ikigai, her transformative experiences in Japan, and the deep connections she maintains with family, friends, and professional networks. Learn how her fascination with Daruma dolls and Japanese culture has sculpted her professional journey and enriched her personal life.
Explore the concept of lean coaching as we trace its roots back to the Toyota production system. Katie and I discuss the power of setting goals, developing pathways, and fostering a learning mindset, applicable to both sizable organizations and individual solopreneurs. Discover the profound meanings of the Japanese words kokorozashi and shiko, which encapsulate the alignment of purpose with actions for meaningful impact.
Hear the inspiring story of Katie's cross-cultural friendship with Mr. Isao Yoshino and the life-changing collaboration that ensued. We share the importance of meaningful conversations, the essence of leadership development, and the transformational power of Japan Study Trips. This episode is packed with insights on finding balance, purpose, and achieving continuous improvement in both personal and professional realms. Don't miss out on this enriching conversation that promises to leave you inspired and motivated!
Outside of everything we've talked about, what are other sources of Ikigai for you?
Speaker 2:Certainly being connected to my family I'm a mom of two kids. They were super little when we moved to Japan and the fact that they love Japan now too. And building community, and that's both community in my work but also community in my friendships. I'm a connector, truly and I, like I seek human connections and I maintain human connections. You know, I was just back in Australia where I lived for four and a half years I had been almost 10 years since I'd been there and I've maintained a lot of important friendships and professional connections. People always say, wow, you've really stayed connected with people. I'm like I don't, you know, it's just sort of. I think that those inherent things that you just do, because they're part of what brings you that personal meaning and that manifests in my professional life as well, and then, and certainly, just finding that balance between being and doing so, I'm a high achiever. But also, how do I really? How?
Speaker 1:do I lead life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, slow down and like appreciate those moments and it's really, really important. So the connection, learning international experiences and sharing that with others.
Speaker 1:Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom. My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Katie Anderson, an internationally recognized consultant, leadership coach, best-selling author, speaker and learning enthusiast, dedicated to helping business leaders accelerate individual and organizational impact. Katie is the author of Learning to Lead Leading to Learn Lessons from Toyota Leader Isao Yoshino on a Lifetime of.
Speaker 2:Continuous Learning, some of our shared passion around Japan learning and finding our purpose and living our purpose.
Speaker 1:Sounds good. I remember watching a video of you in Japan and you were outside one of those barbers that have the, the lights and the whole lean process and the energy you had just explaining like, oh, this means this and they have this to tell you how long it's going to take. I was like, who is this person? She's got the most energy on the planet. So I thought, wow, she really has this passion for not just her work but how things are done in Japan. So, yeah, shall we start with a little history, with the work that you do and your connection to Japan.
Speaker 2:Sure, and you know, one of the reasons I've started to call myself a learning enthusiast is because it really connects both my passion for learning and sharing learning with others and just my this innate enthusiasm that comes through, and, you know, I don't know where it comes from, but it's sort of my secret sauce perhaps, and we can explore more of that, how we, you know, come and find our purpose together. But my connection to Japan began really 10 years ago this month, july that we just started. We were recording this in July of 2014, when I found out for my husband's job that we had the opportunity to move to Japan for two years and I had a consulting practice that I just started focusing on helping organizations bring in concepts of Kaizen and continuous improvement in the Toyota production system into their organizations, and that's what I'd been doing for years in healthcare systems in the US and in Australia. But I was so excited by that opportunity and so six months later, we moved to Japan and I had met Mr Isao Yoshino, the subject of my book, at a conference. Serendipity, the stars were aligned Around the same time we found out about moving to Japan and he gave me his card, his meishi, and said look me up, I'll take you to Toyota City and show you around when you get settled.
Speaker 2:And I really thought, wow, this is an incredible opportunity for me to not only learn for myself but also to share those learnings with others. So that began my light, like this deep passion and connection with Japan, and then personally with Isao Yoshino as well, and now Japan's forever woven into the core of who I am. You can see all the I have obsessed with Daruma dolls. I love so much about that Japanese culture. I love so much about that Japanese culture and my passion is also about connecting those concepts for people who don't live in Japan and who aren't Japanese and similar to you that you know. We have this shared sort of passion about how do we make that connection in a way that makes sense to other people and that it's tangible and that it's not so foreign and it is accessible as well.
Speaker 1:Well, there you go. Yeah, it is accessible as well. Well, there you go, yeah, it is an amazing culture. And I actually remember when I did that traineeship I was telling you about in 95, during it we were given I think now at the end of it we were given a dharma doll and told like, yeah, you paint one eye when you set your goal and then, once you've achieved your goal, you, you set your goal and then, once you've achieved your goal, you color in the other eye to obviously represent you've achieved it. And it was such a yeah, sort of thoughtful gift and it's like ah, this culture never ends the learning never ends.
Speaker 2:I actually I mean, I have hundreds of Daruma dolls personally. I actually have one giant one that's made it was made for me at the Daruma temple in Takasaki. It has the inscription of Shiko or intention on it for me. But I also get the mini ones. I import them every time I with me when I go to Japan and I give them as gifts to represent, you know, people's goals and their purpose and how they move forward. And you know the Japanese proverb, fall down seven times, get up eight, is so profound and so inspirational and I love that they, you know they're like little weeble, wobble dolls that you know, write themselves back up when they get knocked over. So keep going, perseverance and patience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you seem to wear many hats. So when people ask you what do you do, what do you say?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I sometimes get stuck in sort of the technical side of what I do, but really the core of what I am is I like to consider myself a catalyst for learning and impact and really using the actually bolding on the word kata from Japanese meaning routine and practice. But how do we? How are we not just catalysts for change but catalysts practicing the behaviors and routines that build learning as the source of progress and change in organizations or for ourselves? So this builds on the energy side too. How am I helping to be a change catalyst for people to lead the change that they want in their lives, personally and professionally?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you really seem to convey that you have all this energy and you love sharing and you do it with such, I don't know. It's almost like you do it with this incredible love, love for it and love for sharing. So it's, it's quite inspiring.
Speaker 2:So it's genuine. I don't know where it comes from, I just have this like it's just, it's it's been a core part of who I am. You know, when I look back from the very beginning, and you know, I think that's how we really end up finding our life's calling and purpose as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's also courageous. You have this, I think, what you do and we'll talk about these all these things you do, you know they're not easy, very challenging, so you'd have to have a lot of courage to take on all these risks for these things you care about. I guess that leads us to this subject of lean, which you know a great deal about. So what is lean and, more specifically, what is lean coaching?
Speaker 2:So lean is a term that was applied by researchers in the late 1980s about describing the Toyota production system and other Japanese manufacturers' success, how they came to sort of that world domination, especially in the automobile manufacturing space. It's talking about how do you do more with less, and they came up with the word lean, which is accurate but also leads to a lot of, I guess, negative impressions for people. They hear the do more or do it with less, but not the underlying culture that supports that. It's about how do we challenge ourselves to do more with less, but not like berating people around that, but with a culture of learning and experimentation. And so that is really I mean, that's what I try and explain so much more in my book from Mr Yoshino's experiences of 40 years at Toyota, from the late 60s to the early 2000s.
Speaker 2:But Lean is about how do we bring in this culture of operational excellence, of continuous learning and respect for people into organizations so that we can get the business results that we need and want, focusing on people and process as the way to do that and in Western cultures often sort of the opposite is we focus on that result or the outcome at all else and not the way to get there, and so that's a real difference, and there's a lot more of the production principle side, of how you create flow and built-in quality and all of this.
Speaker 2:It's critical as well, but, at its heart, the engine that makes this work is around a focus on learning and on people, and so yeah. So then the lean coaching is how do we develop people's human capabilities around problem solving and developing other people, and this is where it gets to this concept I call leading to learn. It's about how do leaders set the direction, like where do we need to go? What are the challenges we need to achieve as an organization, as a team or whatever, and then how do they provide the support through coaching and development and the systems and structures that allow people to be successful?
Speaker 1:And then, third, how do they develop themselves, and so that's really the foundation in lean coaching is about how do we develop people to do that. Okay, so it could be something. Could it be something you like apply to, like me, the individual who has almost like a one person business so I don't have a team, I'm not manufacturing but can I, yeah, could I apply lean principles, I guess, to what I do and myself?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You know I'm in a similar situation as you are, Nick. I have my own solopreneur consulting practice. I have some people who help support me, but you know it's really. I'm not leading a massive team anymore. I used to lead teams and organizations. It's all about the principles, really, and how do want to go, what is the next goal, what are the things you need to achieve for your business and for yourself? And then what are the pathway you're going to get there and how do you have a learning mindset from the process to get there? And how are you developing yourself and your own capabilities at that same time?
Speaker 1:Well, speaking of learning and goals, we could touch on our favorite Japanese words, and both of us have them written in kanji or calligraphy. So yeah, and they're quite similar. So I have kokorozashi, which is actually used by Japan's biggest business school, globus, and they have their MBA. Students develop a kokorozashi, which is like this personal mission, where you're using your professional skills, where you want to change an aspect of society, and it's a highly ambitious goal that's going to take potentially decades, and you need supporters, you need a team and you need incredible leadership with lots of energy. But it's also rooted in Bushido, so it's a word rooted in Bushido and it sort of represents literally either the warrior's heart or the samurai's heart or the samurai's mind, and it's part of your favorite word. So what is?
Speaker 1:your favorite word.
Speaker 2:My favorite word is intention, and you can see behind me. So the first of the two kanji symbols is kokorozashi, and I actually didn't even it took. It was a few years later that I learned of that. It was a standalone word as well. And then the lower symbol is compass, or direction, and when I moved to Japan I didn't have business cards for my new company. I'd had been in practice for a year and you know it's very rare that we give out business cards in the West, so much so.
Speaker 2:But of course I knew, moving to Japan, I needed a business card. I didn't have a logo, and so I worked with a Meishi, a business card product, you know, company. And I said, well, put the word for intention in Japanese on my card, as I'll use that as my logo. I had no idea what it looked like or what it represented, and you know that's when it came back, shiko. And so I started, you know, introducing myself, making connections in Japan, and contacts who you know were bilingual, said, oh, this is a very powerful word. And they explained, you know that, the samurai's heart. And then direction. And actually I came to describe intention equals heart plus direction, and you might even say the strength of your heart plus direction.
Speaker 2:So what's your purpose? What impact do you want to have? And then what actions do you need to take to fulfill that purpose? And that's how I see is intention is about knowing our purpose and then taking the actions that align with that. And then I later learned of the word kokorozashi and I was like, oh, this is why it's so powerful in it. But it made sense. I mean, that was just innate to me and so I have. You know, I have shiko intention written on my big Daruma and it's on my business cards and it's such a core part of who I am and how I show up. It's about how do we intentionally take action to fulfill our purpose. So we have to have knowledge of both right what is our purpose and then what are the things we need to do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love Japanese words and just one word can convey so much, but with this different perspective, and it's more philosophical. They're always more philosophical and they also seem to have like an actionable psychology behind them and it's like, oh man, and they look so beautiful too. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I have. The calligraphy behind me is written three different ways. It's actually my Japan teacher's aunt is. She practices the art of calligraphy, and so before I left she wrote a few different manuscripts.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:In different style and script, and so I think they're all beautiful and look a little bit different yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, speaking of things that inspire us, let's move on to people. So in your book you write that you developed a close friendship with Isao Yoshino and, to quote from your book, you write of the first time you saw Yoshino-san on stage at a lean coaching summit. Yoshino's jovial presence and warm smile on stage shattered any preconceptions that I had about older Japanese sensei being stoic, harsh taskmasters. Yeah, so it sounds like he had an immediate impression on you just by seeing him up on stage.
Speaker 2:He's one of the warmest people I know and he was just joking and being just really humorous and approachable and humble and kind from the stage.
Speaker 2:You just could tell and there's a preconception at least that I had and from a lot of consultants that came over in the 80s and 90s from Japan were in this model of more of the taskmaster yeah, whip it Japanese leader, like stand in that corner and do it again and with an intention of learning, but kind of a very harsh style, and that was clearly not Mr Yoshino at all.
Speaker 2:And then I met him at the bar the next day and I mentioned we were probably moving to Japan. And then he said, oh, look me up, I'll take you out. And I really thought it was going to be a once in a lifetime opportunity. And then he said, oh, look me up, I'll take you, know, take you out. And I really thought it was gonna be a once in a lifetime opportunity. And we just had this incredible connection, talking. You know, here we are 30 years apart in age, different genders, from different countries, but just a real shared connection and passion for living internationally, of learning, of talking, and yeah, so you know, fast forward almost 10 years and 10 years and we have a bestselling word reading book and it's just one of my life's greatest joys to have partnered together to make that come into the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's another wonderful aspect of when you go to Japan. Sometimes you meet these amazing people and if you're lucky, yeah, you can develop a really special relationship with Japanese. I know that's hard sometimes for foreigners. They have kind of superficial relationships with a lot of Japanese and it can be quite hard to, yeah, find deep and meaningful friendship. And I've got some really good friends, yeah, my best friends are in Japan. So, yeah, it's always nice for that. I mean, it's life changing really when you can do that. And you mentioned something you call the Yoshino-san commute.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So what's that?
Speaker 2:Yeah well, it became this pattern of, and then I continued it Even when I went back to live in the United States. I'd come back to Japan every six months up until the time of the pandemic, and now I'm back in that pattern. But I would literally like jump. I would take the taxi to Shinagawa Station, grab a coffee and a pretzel croissant, and like jump on the Shinkansen and the bullet train 90 minutes, you know and arrive at Nagoya Station and either Mr Yoshino would meet me there and we'd go on some adventure to another Toyota museum or I would take a taxi to his his office. He was at that time, a lecturer at Nagoya university. He's 80 years old now, so he's he's well we're even retired from that right before the pandemic, and we would just spend the day together talking and reflecting.
Speaker 2:And I had started writing a blog around the time when I moved to Japan because I knew I had this, you know, speaking about this passion for learning.
Speaker 2:I knew I had a unique opportunity to learn for myself living in Japan. But I was like I want to share what I'm learning with other people, and Mr Yoshino Yoshino-san gave me permission to write about our conversations, and so not only was I writing about what I was learning about Japanese culture or visiting other organizations, but I was writing about our conversations and what makes Toyota so successful. Why are hundreds of thousands of people and companies around the world trying to bring in the Toyota way, or what we call lean, what we've talked about? And you know, his answer was there is no secret, he's like, except as I opened the book, the only secret is Toyota's attitude towards learning. And so, yeah, so that was the beginning of a beautiful friendship. And then, when I moved back to the US after our assignment was over, I continued to go back to Japan and to do that same Yoshino-san commute and, yeah, it was great. And then, on the way home, of course, grab a bento and, you know, have a nice little evening journey back to Tokyo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good fun riding the Shinkansen. It's always exciting.
Speaker 2:Yes, I know definitely, I never get bored of it. I'm like bored of it when it comes into the station yeah, I love going back to japan the first few hours.
Speaker 1:It's like I'm back and I know, I know everything.
Speaker 2:So there's so much going on and yet it's like it's such organized chaos. It's so you know it's like it's so calm and it's I mean I love it yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you've mentioned this idea of conversation and you make reference to the mutual value of conversation. You shared a pattern of your relationship and you say you know two people from different cultures, backgrounds, genders and generations coming together to learn, share and help each other through conversation and reflection Coming together to learn, share and help each other through conversation and reflection. And to add to this and to highlight the importance and value of friendship, I'd like to quote from your book again Through discussions and friendship, we have both learned more deeply what it means to weave a full life of purpose and intention. We have discovered that we share a common fabric of purpose to lead international lives, to help others discover their best selves and to develop our best selves at the same time.
Speaker 1:And I thought, wow, that's inspiring and very meaningful. And I find this, I find it to be true this idea of having meaningful conversations can be life-changing. Having meaningful conversations can be life-changing. I'm sure you have these conversations with other people, not just Yoshino-san. Yeah, so do you. Is that what you try to go for in your role, with your consulting and education, and you do these Japan study trips? Is that what you're aiming for? To have these conversations, where from it people draw meaning or a sense of purpose.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That's one of the sort of the underlying, you know, I guess the core of what I'm trying to do it's not, you know. I guess the core of what I'm trying to do it's not, you know, telling people a specific skill. I mean, of course I can teach skills and frameworks and all of that, but really holding the space for learning, creating those conditions for learning, either through asking questions, sharing examples, sharing stories. I really worked on, both in the writing of this book and then in my keynote speaking, really stepping into much more storytelling as a way to learn. It's why I structured the book with Mr Yoshino's stories and then reflection questions, which I called practicing hansei Hansei, another Japanese word meaning reflection or self-reflection, because it's through those questions that we learn for ourselves, and so there's power of asking those open-ended questions to each other and helping each other reflect and learn and holding up maybe different perspectives. And so the whole way we created the book was through this practice of Hanse, of asking questions, of partnering. And then what I wanted people to take away from the book was not me telling them what they needed to learn, but really posing some questions to help them reflect on what they were learning. I also wanted to. You mentioned you brought in this quote about this the weaving of the purpose and the fabric, and I wanted to highlight this metaphor of weaving that I used as the loom on which to write the stories of the book or to write the book, and it's also one deeply connected to purpose, and when I think about Ikigai as well, I think about this metaphor. So maybe we can explore that a bit too. But I was stuck when I was writing, trying to think about how do I bring in Mr Yoshino's sort of personal, these like core things about his personal side of wanting to move to the United States and studying English. He's fluent in English and he was born in the, you know, before the World War II ended, so this is very, not very usual, so this wasn't very common at that time. And then this real passion for learning and helping other people learn, and as we were, you know, we took several years to work on the book through purposeful interviews and then starting to write. I keep saying I feel like there's two threads of purpose that keep coming through your life, you know this desire to move to the US and this desire to help other people learn. He's like oh, do you actually know?
Speaker 2:We have a metaphor in Japan for kimono weavers the warp and the weft. So the warp represents the kimono weavers' inner drive. Maybe it's their kokorozashi, their inner drive, their spirit, their desire to bring forth this fabric or the output of something, and it's known. It's those vertical lines that are set on the loom and they're known in advance. And then the weft threads are those ones that are more fluid and flexible and are interwoven, that can break, they create the pattern, but it can be different threads, different colors, and they're discovered through the process of creating the fabric.
Speaker 2:And I did some reflections like, oh my gosh, it's like our life purpose is the weaving of the warp, the known sort of those constants in our life, and the discovered, the things that we have learned through success, through failure, through the course of our lives. And so our purpose is really that intersection of the known and the discovered. And I found that it's just a really yeah, very powerful and very cool and because, like you know, just like Ikigai, it's not necessarily inherently just known to us, right, it's both. There's things, if we look back, you know, like my enthusiasm or my love for learning or desire to live in all these different countries Australia, japan, UK you know many others countries Australia, japan, uk you know many others but it's also the things that we discover through the process of our lives as well that gets clarity on what that purpose is, what that true ikigai is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've discovered how important it is this co-reflection in my own work. So we have cohorts and I'll present ideas about Ikigai or relatable concepts and we have a lot of discussion in my cohorts and, yeah, you get these different perspectives from people who are from different backgrounds and have their life experience and I'm always learning with each new cohort and it's so powerful to to share, but then be, you know, open and and listen to others, share their life and their stories, and you get this perspective you'd probably never consider or think about. And, yeah, that reflection is so important and we most of us are stressed and trying to get through our day and we've got that monkey mind bouncing from one task to the other and even when we don't have anything to do, we're still worried about something or stressed about something or regret something and it's like we almost have very little control of how we use our mind.
Speaker 1:But sometimes, yeah, we meet these inspiring people who give us this opportunity to you, can reflect and slow down and almost think in a different way or at a different level. So, yeah, it's amazing how much you can learn from people, even just one person, in anywhere, but often in Japan.
Speaker 2:My experience, and it sounds like yours is too, that you know there's a greater cultivation across Japan of this power of Hansei of reflection. And it ties to me directly to Mr Yoshino's comment that the only secret to Toyota is its attitude towards learning, because learning happens in the reflection. But we can learn to be more reflective, we can create those habits, but we have to be intentional around it, right, because it's, you know, we're in this go go go Western culture of results and doing, and I talk a lot about this on my podcast Chain of Learning, this concept of being versus doing, and we're kind of overly weighted on the doing side. I mean we need both being and doing, but we're more successful if we can really stay in that present learning mindset of being and having the impact that we want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it reminds me of the expression shokunin damashi, like the craftsman or the craftsperson's spirit. And you know, in Japan you'll see this incredible work, this detailed work of a craftsperson, and you'll say, oh my gosh, you're a master at this. And they'll say, oh, no, like.
Speaker 1:I've only scratched the surface and I've only been doing this for 50 years or something it's like and in the West we have this tendency to think, oh yeah, once I can define something, I know it. So it is amazing the depth I guess Japanese go to into truly trying to understand something, and they'll almost never claim to say, you know, I fully understand this, or that I'm always constantly learning and it's really inspiring. I think it's a good reminder, for I guess that the ego you know, not to that, the ego.
Speaker 2:I know I'm constantly battling that right All of my doing. You know I am doing a lot, but and when I get too caught up in the doing, it actually it's overwhelming, it's stressful. But if I can slow down and be like, oh, who do I want to be, how do I want to be showing up, what impact do I want to have, it's like it's so grounding and then actually I'm more effective in the things that I want to do and accomplish. So we just get, we get spun up too much and too easily. So, again, take a deep breath and pause.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes. Well, with that, let's go back to the title of your book Learning to Lead and Learning to Learn Lessons from Toyota Leader Isai Yoshinobu on a Lifetime of Continuous Learning. So I was thinking, oh, I should challenge you on the title of the book. So how do we learn to lead?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, actually my working title of the book was Practicing Hanse, because of this sort of meta process, but I thought actually the title Learning to Lead, leading to Learn reflected the biggest takeaway for me. So if we want to have an organization that cultivates this attitude towards learning, first we need to learn how to lead, how to be a leader. It's not, you know, there's some things that are innate, maybe known to us but it's making a shift from being the expert with all the answers to the person who's more of setting the direction and coaching then your team. How to get there? We have to learn how to not be that just the individual contributor, but how to truly lead an organization or a team or a project, even and we need to do that through others. And then, how do we lead to create an attitude towards learning in the organization?
Speaker 2:Because learning is that key to being able to get the results and continuously improve. And it also reflects this concept of what I call this chain of learning, that we're all learners and leaders at the same time. Like, even if you're leading, you're learning about yourself and you're learning about the other people and you're learning about the process at the same time, and so it's. You're constantly learning to lead and leading to learn, and learning to lead and leading to learn, and developing this chain of learning, which is now the title of my podcast as well. But it's really this, it's this how are we all linked together in this concept?
Speaker 1:I think I need to learn how to read, because I've been saying learning to lead and learning to learn, so it's learning to lead and leading to learn, so sorry about that.
Speaker 2:That's all right.
Speaker 1:Now, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:It's all about learning and leading and mixing leading to lead and learning to learn. There we go.
Speaker 1:So with that, you also have this incredible three-part framework, inspired by Mr Yoshino, on what leadership is, so would you like to share that three part framework?
Speaker 2:So I mentioned you know, I sort of kind of snuck it in a little bit earlier.
Speaker 2:It came from that very first time.
Speaker 2:I met Mr Yoshino at the conference and saw him on the stage and he's telling stories, and he made this offhand comment about his role as a manager at Toyota and to me it really was so profound.
Speaker 2:And then in later conversations, everything he said and other Toyota leaders said really came back to these three points. So he said and I'm paraphrasing here the quote but my role as a manager was to give the person whom he was reporting to him a mission or target and then support him or her but usually him at this point in the 80s in Japan, support him while he figured out how to reach that goal. And I was aware that as I was developing that person, I was developing myself at the same time and I just I reflected and I was like, oh my gosh, this is the simplicity of leadership really If we can set the direction and provide the support, create the systems and structures and develop people and develop ourselves. So set direction, provide support, develop yourself, and if you focus on those things, you're going to be more successful. There's going to be failures along the way, but those are the key, the key components of leadership.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, I only got your book two days ago and I was sort of flicking through it and I read that quote and I was like, wow, like yeah, I'm going to sit with this quote and these three ideas set direction, provide support. And it's yeah, you're not just developing the person you're leading you in the process are developing. And it's like, oh, that is so true, it's so cool.
Speaker 2:So profound right Like oh, what's the? You know what? How do I need to ask questions differently? Or what does this person need from me? Or I was. I was impatient at this time time, so I jumped in and gave an answer, and maybe that wasn't helpful and you know so so much like because there's so much we have to overcome. You know, even if we have a lot of experience, there's always opportunities to be better or do something differently it's almost cool, like it's the leader becomes the learner, so yeah, learning to lead, leading to learn right, flipping it.
Speaker 2:Flipping it Well you'll. Once you finish reading the book, you'll enjoy the my podcast this month that I released have feature Mr Yoshino. So we talk about, so chain of learning, episode 21 and episode 22, talking both about the process of writing the book and the process of reflection, but also some more things about what does that mean as a leader? So dive into that.
Speaker 1:Actually your book is quite dense. There we go. I've just found that. Well, the rumor's.
Speaker 2:On the pages it is 350 pages, 80,000 words. Never thought that I would write a book that big. I wrote my master's thesis in Australia. This was a much more intensive process and at the same time it is all stories. And so people say, wow, I just like I read this so quickly or I was just absorbed in it because of the stories and the storytelling, rather than. This is not your typical sort of how to you know print, just talking about a framework you know I sneak those in there, of course, but it's really a story of a real human life journey, trying to be the best human being and the best leader he can. And he happened to be at Toyota at some really seminal times and inflection points in Toyota's history of becoming this, you know, really world-famous automobile manufacturer, and so some good behind the scenes stories about how that all happened.
Speaker 1:It must've been quite an intimate process too, because I found writing my book and the editor of my book was in my first cohort of Ikigai tribe and so she was already a friend. But I was sharing all these things about my life, these intimate details, and she was offering perspective and also she was a technical editor and I found it like, oh, I'm revealing all this stuff about my life to one person and found it, yeah, really intellectually and emotionally intimate process and I had to be open to her feedback and trust. You know her feedback and guidance and I'll be forever grateful to Caitlin, so was that sort of the same experience you had?
Speaker 2:On multiple levels. So when we first set out to write a book, we, Mr Yoshino, Was that sort of the same experience you had On multiple levels.
Speaker 2:So when we first set out to write a book, Mr Yoshino suggested a booklet, but I was like I think, this can be more than a booklet, like I feel like there's more, but I said yes and the vision for the book evolved over time. Originally, it was going to be some of my stories too our shared learning of doing these things at different times, places, you know, and over what was like 18 months, of the beginning of purposeful interviews of me, like diving into his life and being very he was, he was very willing to talk is 2018 and 2019. And you know, it was after I put my kids to bed. So for me in California it was like 8 pm it was, you know, midday for him in Japan the next day and we talked for a few hours and I was just started at the very beginning. And then, you know, there were some stories.
Speaker 2:He's always was very honest about some failures. He called them failures in his life. As I really started to piece together what happened, I was asking more questions and you'll read about this at the end of the book. But like a 10-year failed business venture for Toyota that cost the company $13 million, it was his idea. He felt really terrible about it and he always said, oh, I have this big business failure and need to learn from failure and all these things. But as I dived into it he started to be really gray, sometimes at night like make him obviously his very sad time. But we just had this really intimate relationship of trust and kindness and through the process of asking questions and sort of then me trying to repeat back and piece together what I was hearing, he had a totally different perspective. I mean I remember vividly one day he just had this like look of joy on his face and he's like your questions have helped me see this experience in a different light and it's like I released his burden of this failure. And so, honestly, if that's the only thing that came out of the process of writing this book, that is the biggest gift and that's what resonates the most with people, that his willingness to talk really openly about the challenges that come in failed times and yeah, so it was really intimate.
Speaker 2:And then I had once I figured out how to write the stories and using the warp and the weft and I mean the whole writing process is a whole nother journey. I had a few different people who helped me from an editorial standpoint A friend who has written some successful books. She helped as a developmental editor. She went through the first pass and helped me think about shaping. And then I had another editor who did a harder edit, but most of the writing was me and Mr Yoshino in conversation and me trying to piece it together and then sharing it back with him. Yeah, I mean, the richness of our relationship and connection is just incredible because of that process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what a gift you were able to give each other through that process. Yeah, so very special and so much time too, I imagine, together.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was a lot of time. Yeah, so very special and so much time to, I imagine, together. Yes, it was a lot of time. I know all the stories and I learned so much about myself, so much about leadership, so much about writings. I learned so much through the process and it's made me a better consultant, a better coach, a better parent, a better friend because of what I've learned about really, what does this take, what does it mean? And then how to try to translate that and frame it up to other people to have a good learning experience through the reading of the book or listening to the audio book as well. So, yeah, it's me narrating with Mr Yoshino, so you can have me here and I can talk about that failure too. I did it twice. Oh my God, pandemic times. I'll just chalk it up to that.
Speaker 1:So even now, I'm listening to you now and I've got this observation like Katie has so much ikigai, she loves so many things. So on this theme of ikigai, I think you have many sources and one, I think, is these Japan study trips you do and, as you know, I'm quite keen to join you on one of them.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, can you tell us about of the culmination of all my joyous things and being able to offer that to other people? So one of the glimmers of an idea I had when we moved to Japan was like, oh, I wonder if I, you know, want to develop relationships and learn for myself. I said, you know, maybe there'll be an opportunity in the future to be able to bring other global business leaders and consultants to Japan to have, you know, an immersive learning experience for a week and let's see what happens. And I that came to be you know, an immersive learning experience for a week and let's see what happens. And I, that came to be, you know, through a lot of work and courage and partnerships and behind the scenes things. I led my first trip in 2018. Another in 2019, had two sold out trips for 2020. Of course, we know what happened there. And then I've led two trips in 2023. And I have one in May and one in November of 2024, and then some for next year.
Speaker 2:And I love them because it brings together people from around the world who are interested in learning about a new culture, interested in learning for themselves and then how they can take that back to their organizations, about a Motonashi customer service, you know the hospitality, about Kaizen, about continuous improvement, but really about the finding almost their own Kokorozashi and how they can bring that energy back to companies. And and then you know we have. I love hosting people and have bringing people together so you might be able to tell I'm an extrovert, so it brings me great joy and to offer experiences that are really truly curated, that you can't just pop over to Japan and have. I mean, these are years of relationships cultivated with some really special companies and business leaders in Japan. I have genuine friendships with them and that comes through as well. You can have a plug-and-play tour but, as we talked about, those genuine relationships are so powerful and I really value being able to share that with other people. So I do hope you can come, but you can learn along.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've been talking about doing Ikigai retreats for a while now and sort of this pie in the sky idea, and yeah, I think you've given me this push to do it, so you've inspired me. Yes, and yeah, I think you're right, it is this idea of curating these experiences and doing things that would be almost impossible for people to do by themselves. But through the journey, you have all this learning and these, I guess, these intimate experiences of Japanese culture that really all culminates in this once-in-a-lifetime experience, truly. So that's something I'm planning to do. So thank you for the inspiration.
Speaker 2:I'm being your catalyst for taking action.
Speaker 2:And you know, what's so important too is and you and I've talked about how do you curate a great experience in that week but you don't want it just to be a great experience, you want it to be something that's truly transformational, that's going to people are going to take something and do something differently. And so the, the, the, when I reconnect with people who've come on the trips to say how that's really shifted their mindset and their actions, as either, if they're, you know, c-suite executives or directors and organizations about how they're leading and their teams and the results they're getting, or from other consultants about how they're going to be, they're so much more impactful about talking about lean and continuous improvement in that human element. So it's the impact of these experiences that are really is the most transformational, is the transformational value of going, and so for you too, like the Ikigai, like, really like, getting that true spirit in the source is I mean, there's nothing like it.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's all about what makes life feel worth living. So let's end with that. Outside of everything we've talked about, what are other sources of Ikigai for you?
Speaker 2:Certainly being connected to my family I'm a mom of two kids. They were super little when we moved to Japan and the fact that they love Japan now too and building community, and that's both community in my work but also community in my friendships. I'm a connector, truly, and I seek human connections and I maintain human connections. You know, I was just back in Australia where I lived for four and a half years I had been almost 10 years since I'd been there and I've maintained a lot of important friendships and professional connections. People always say, wow, you've really stayed connected with people. I'm like I don't, you know, it's just sort of. I think that those inherent things that you just do, because they're part of what brings you that personal meaning and that manifests in my professional life as well, and then, and certainly, just finding that balance between being and doing so I'm a high achiever.
Speaker 1:But also, how do I really how do I lead life Slow down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, slow down and like appreciate those moments and it's really how do I lead the life? Yeah, slow down and like appreciate those moments and it's really, really important. So the connection, learning international experiences and sharing that with others.
Speaker 1:It really it all comes together.
Speaker 2:That's why it's, like you know, aligning the professional side with the personal, and you know you can't fake the enthusiasm right. So that comes from something when you actually are doing the thing, that brings you joy, that comes through, and I'm so grateful to have been able to create a career where I'm able to live my ikigai in both my professional life and my personal life.
Speaker 1:No, it's awesome, and I'm very glad we're now connected. Me too, this is our first chat, so thank you for your time today.
Speaker 2:And how can people find you. So thanks, nick, it's been a pleasure and I'm looking forward to this. Today isn't just the beginning, so I'm. You can go to my website, which is kbjandersoncom, and you can check out my book, learning to lead, leading to learn, also at learning to lead, leading to learncom. I have nick's book, too, and I have a podcast chain of learning chain of learningcom, and you can find me on LinkedIn, and that's my main social media channel now. So I truly love to connect with people. I'd love to hear what resonates with your listeners about this conversation and to continue to build our chain of learning together.
Speaker 1:Sounds good to me. So this has been a great first conversation, I think. To steal a line from what was that movie? The Last Samurai? Yeah, oh yes, ken. Washington. This has been a very good conversation and I wish you much success with your continued success with the next study trip. So that's already booked.
Speaker 2:So that's in November my November trip this year, in 2024, is booked, but I have dates for May of 2025. I can't believe we're talking about it and I'm assuming I'll do a trip in the fall too. But you know you've got to FIFO first in, first out, so we've got to fill that first trip first. So reach out so you can find out information. If anyone's interested in exploring the Japan Study Trip Leadership Program, it's on my website. So kbjandersoncom slash Japan trip.
Speaker 1:Yep, all right, we'll put a direct link to that page on the show notes. Great, I'll let you go, katie, because I think we've got to finish up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much, nick. It's a pleasure, and let's go live our purpose, our Kokorozashi, our Shiko and our Ikig.