The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Biopsychosocial Influences on Ikigai with Takaharu Goto
What influences our sense of ikigai?
In exploring the concept of ikigai, it’s essential to understand how various factors contribute to its experience.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Takaharu Goto about the impact of biopsychosocial factors on one’s experience of ikigai.
So, with all this in mind, based on the study, what can contribute to higher levels of ikigai?
Speaker 2:Yes, our research shows that, as I said earlier, it is appropriate to consider that good affective psychological status is a fundamental condition for having a higher level of ikigai or ikigai. We believe that by adjustment, one's affective psychological status, one's physical and social status can be improved and the element of fulfillment and the sense of mission can be built upon this to contribute to enhance of ikigai. Now, japanese companies are currently employing a variety of strategies to address the issue of health management, which can be defined as the protection of employees' health, with a view to ensuring the long-term viability of the company.
Speaker 1:Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom. My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Takaharu Goto. Takaharu Goto is an assistant professor in the Department of Prosthodontics and Oral Rehabilitation at Tokushima University, Japan. He graduated from the Faculty of Dentistry at Tokushima University in 2007 and received his PhD in Dentistry from Tokushima University in 2012. His areas of expertise include prosthetic and geriatric dentistry. Additionally, he has contributed to research on ikigai and social frailty from a medical perspective. Welcome and thank you for joining me today, Goto-sensei.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Nick. I appreciate your referral. I'm honored to be invited to this ikigai podcast and look forward to talking with you about all things Ikigai.
Speaker 1:So do I. So we've had a chat and you said I could call you Tak, almost as if we're friends. So we're friends now. So thank you again, tak, for being here. I recently stumbled upon your paper Biopsychosocial Consideration of Ikigai in Older Adults in Japan through a Cross-Sectional Study, which was published in early June this year. So congratulations. I know papers take a lot of research and time. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Thank you for writing it.
Speaker 1:And this paper seemed to be or was a collaborative effort with six other research authors. So how did this paper come about?
Speaker 2:Yes, this paper presents findings from a study in Koyadaira, mima City, tokushima Prefecture, japan. It is commonly called the MIMA Song Study. This study examined the relationship between the healthy life expectancy and oral, cognitive and physical function, social factors such as participation in community activities and nutritional intake among older adults in early and mountainous regions in Japan. Japan has the highest aging rate in the world. Its policy is to extend health-like expectancy and measures for the elderly and attracting attention. Most studies on the elderly in Japan have been urban and sub-urban areas have been urban and sub-urban areas. However, there is a growing interest in hilly and mountainous regions, which account for 70% of Japan's land area, as well as marginalized communities, as research fields. The MIMASONG study is a field study conducted in these hilly and mountainous regions. May I explain a little about this study, okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, so I'll just confirm this study. These are hilly, so hills and mountainous areas, so this is, I guess, a unique perspective on the study.
Speaker 2:Yes, the Koyodaira is the east of Tokushima Prefecture on Shikoku Island in southwestern Japan. The area is 95%, surrounded by mountains and with a population of 582 and an aging rate of 63%, it is considered to have a high probability of disappearing in the near future. The MIMA song study is supervised by Dr Shinji Fujiwara, director of the Koyadaira Clinics. I was introduced to Dr Fujiwara by Emeritus Professor Tetsuo Ichikawa and Professor Yasuhiko Shirayama of Tokushima University. I have been involved in the study. Do you know the Koyadaira area?
Speaker 1:No, but I think this is a common problem. Many areas, their population is shrinking and they could sort of disappear.
Speaker 2:I stayed there during my research. It's a wonderful area, rich in nature. If you are interested in coming, please contact me. We will show you around.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, let's do that. I'm going back to Japan this year, so I'd love to do that, so thank you for the invitation. Yeah, does that concern you personally that many beautiful small towns in Japan will disappear from this shrinking population and aging population?
Speaker 2:Yes, it's a very critical problem in Japan For the disappearing in the near future. We contact the people in these living areas and research to them. It's very important for us.
Speaker 1:I agree. So maybe more research needs to go in and hopefully more people will move away from the big cities and return to these smaller cities and maintain community. I know recently I was speaking to someone how there's many abandoned houses but there's also many abandoned temples, akidera like empty temples, and that's quite sad. These beautiful places of worship and they have beautiful architecture and they're being abandoned and then eventually I guess, they fall apart. So I guess Japan in a way is sort of losing some of its culture with these shrinking or dying towns. Quite sad. Anyway, let's move on. So let's touch on the title of your paper Biopsychosocial Consideration of Ikigai in Older Adults in Japan through a Cross-Sectional Study.
Speaker 2:I think it might be helpful to define biopsychosocial yes, this approach systematically considers biological, psychological and social factors and their complex interactions in understanding health, illness and health care delivery. In recent years, the medical field has used this biopsychosocial model instead of traditional reductionistic biomedical model to assess the relationship between the patient's biological, psychological and social factors and the degree to which these factors influence the patient's symptoms. We have found this approach to be very useful in assessing the ikigai, as it's related to a variety of factors.
Speaker 1:I think yeah, so that's interesting. It's a very holistic approach and I guess ikigai is this holistic approach to life or what makes life Exactly yes. Yeah, and I think in medicine you tend to isolate people's health in certain areas and that's. I guess with time we've realized oh we, we have to look the whole health, the biology and the psychology and the social factors of someone's life. Yes, so I think this makes sense. And so, in the context of this study, how did you define ikigai?
Speaker 2:In this study we defined that ikigai can be explained by physical, psychological or social components, but we don't know which can be the primary one. But we believe that there is a fundamental state of fulfillment in which these components are fulfilled, and then the element of fulfillment and the sense of missions are built on the top of that and ikigai is obtained.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is really interesting for me. After studying ikigai for five years now, I knew social, the social aspect of ikigai you know, very important, yes. And then obviously the psychological and I would almost frame ikigai as positive psychology, like japan's version of positive psychology and, and I guess, to have a fulfilling life we need to be active and healthy. So we need this physical aspect of health. So it's another interesting framework to understand ikigai. Our physical health, our psychological health and our social health, yes, our social health, yes. So with your study you did a cross-sectional study on sarcopenia, frailty and healthy life expectancy. Can you share the details of the cross-sectional study? And maybe we should define sarcopenia?
Speaker 2:Yes, as I mentioned earlier, this study is called the MIMA Song Study. This cross-sectional study included 105 outpatients and 65 and over who regularly visit the MIMA Municipal Koedana Clinic, the medical institution only in this area. In this paper, we present the results of our research focusing on ikigai and in addition to this ikigai research. For example, sarcopenia you know, which means musculoskeletal disease in which muscle mass strength and performance are significantly compromised with age was assessed in this study. In addition to this, sarcopenia status, like a frailty or a function, could intake a nutritional status and the higher life functions were assessed and have presented a relationship between them.
Speaker 2:One of our co-researchers, mio Kitamura, at Tokushima University. This year she published an interesting study on the relationship between fieldwork as a daily life task and physical and cognitive function among the elders living in Koedaira area. This fieldwork as a daily life task means working in small-scale calibrated land. In this quadrille area, many elderly people actually felt that this working in small-scale, calibrated land was ikigai. The Mimasong study was conducted with a baseline survey in 2018 and the second survey five years later, in 2023, last year. So data from the long-term study is currently being comprised under the supervision of the principal investigator, dr Fujiwara now I understand.
Speaker 1:So quite a lot of people and quite a lot of research has been conducted for this study and again, it's quite unique it's isolated to this hilly, mountainous area of Japan and included field work, so that means people going out and talking to people making observations and talking to people making observations.
Speaker 2:Yes, this 105 patients is almost all the people living in Koyodara, so it's a very unique study supervised by Dr Fujiwara.
Speaker 1:So when we're saying old, would that be 60 and above, 70 and above or 80 and above? What age group?
Speaker 2:Yes, the oldest age is over the 19th, so the average age is 79.02 is the average age.
Speaker 1:Okay, so 70s and above, yes. Well, this is interesting because it's all done to assess people's ikigai what makes their life worth living. So how did you measure the participants' level of ikigai?
Speaker 2:Yeah. In the study, ikigai was assessed through the patient's response to the questions do you have any pressure or ikigai? On the basis of the previous reports. As an operational definition, the subject scores of 0 indicated having no ikigai and 5 indicated having higher ikigai. The participants were asked to rate self-rated ikigai on the scale of 0 to 5, with higher scores representing higher ikigai.
Speaker 1:Okay, so quite a simplistic approach. The question do you have any pleasure? Or ikigai, and 0 to 5. So I think this is similar to the Likert scale, or maybe not.
Speaker 2:Yes, visual scales.
Speaker 1:And obviously five would be highest level and zero would mean no wiki guy at all.
Speaker 2:To plan this study design. The simplified question is very important because people must answer many, many questions, so simplified question is very important.
Speaker 1:I understand. Okay. So with that, what did the study reveal?
Speaker 2:This study reveals that affective psychological states, such as depressions, have a large impact.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is interesting. I guess as we get older, our physical abilities become restricted. Perhaps because of that we socialize less and we spend maybe more time alone, and so then we have, I guess, more time to reflect on our life, and it impacts our psychological health. Yes, and so maybe if we're of good health, we can reminisce and think about good memories and still have a positive outlook on life. But I imagine loneliness also comes into this, especially in a hilly and mountainous area where it's harder to access and visit friends or family.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's interesting how the environment in which we live in as we get older, perhaps restricts us from finding or feeling more ikigai. And you noted that in the medical field, there is a shift from the conventional yes I think we mentioned this earlier reductionist biomedical model to a biopsychosocial model in understanding and treating clinical conditions. In other words, patients are now being evaluated holistically, with an emphasis on the relationship between biological, psychological and social factors and the degree of their influence on the patient's condition. You state that this approach is extremely useful for evaluating ikigai, which is obviously thought to be based on the interconnectedness of physical, psychological and social factors and leads to a comprehensive assessment of ikigai. So, as we touched on, yeah, we're looking at ikigai from physical, psychological and social factors and to this end, or based on this theory, you created a biopsychosocial model using physical, psychological and social perspectives, and we'll probably add the framework you've created in the show notes of the podcast. But would you like to explain the model you've created?
Speaker 2:Okay, but would you like to explain the model you've created? Okay, first, this study examined whether ikigai can be explained in terms of physical, psychological including affective and cognitive aspects, and social factors. We used a method called structural cobalancing analysis. This method uses a numerical value called cobalance to model the relationship and degree of relationship among multiple factors that are related to each other. Covalent structure analysis allows us to understand at the grants, the relationship between data that are previously too complex to understand. Using this method, we have developed a biopsychosocial model for ikigai. In our model, four passes from physical, psychological including affective and cognitive aspects and social assessment to ikigai, and correlations between them were confirmed, and the path from the affective psychological condition to Ikigai was significant. The adaptability of this model was good. In other words, physical, psychological and social factors are interrelated and influence Ikigai, with the affective psychological conditions having the largest impact to ikigai.
Speaker 1:I see. So if we're touching on psychological conditions, does that really just mean the way we think about life and our perception of life?
Speaker 2:Yes, the psychological conditions contain the affective and cognitive conditions In this, our model. The affective psychological conditions have a large impact on ikigai, not the cognitive conditions, but this social and physical and psychological conditions are interrelated, but the large impact is only for the affective. Psychological conditions are interrelated, but the large impact is only for the affected psychological conditions.
Speaker 1:We find I see Okay, so this leads us to, I guess, ikigai and the relationship between depression, and you mentioned a correlation between ikigai and depression in the paper, so would you like to expand on this?
Speaker 2:Okay. We explained the method to assessment psychological conditions In this study. For the affective psychological assessment, the degree of depression was evaluating the Japanese short version of geriatric depression 15 scale, gds-ds15, for older adults. The GDS originally developed version contains 30 items and is one of the most widespread and reliable screening scales to evaluate depressions among older adults. Each item is scored yes or no very simple, the total scores ranging from 0 to 15 points, with higher score representing more depression symptoms. The results of multiple regression analysis after age and gender adjustments show that a significant association was found only for GDS-15 to ikigai. In other words, the results of this regression analysis and our ikigai model show that the ikigai is more likely to be obtained in people with low depressions.
Speaker 1:I think that makes sense and it's probably I wonder if it's cyclical. If you have low depression or little depression, you'll feel or experience ikigai and I guess if you feel ikigai, you're likely to have low depression.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, and our model passes from the low depression to ikigai and ikigai can cycle to biophysical and psychological and social factors. The ikigai cycle was also explained in our model in this whole model.
Speaker 1:Yes, other studies have also noted that ikigai encourages positive and healthy behaviours, so maybe activities like walking in nature or spending time with friends or pursuing a meaningful hobby, and I guess that type of behaviour would also reduce depression. Yes, so with all this in mind, based on the study, what can contribute to higher levels of ikigai?
Speaker 2:Yes, our research shows that, as I said earlier, it is appropriate to consider that good affective psychological status is a fundamental condition for having a higher level of ikigai. We believe that by adjustment of one's affective psychological status, one's physical and social status can be improved and the element of fulfillment and the sense of mission can be built upon this to contribute to the enhancement of ikigai. Built upon this to contribute to enhance of ikigai. Now, Japanese companies are currently employing a variety of strategies to address the issue of health management, which can be defined as the protection of employees' health, with a view to ensuring the long-term viability of the company. In Mimason's study, we investigated the Ikigai of the elderly. Our findings suggested that it is important for the energetic working generation to have a perspective on Ikigai or purpose in life or work engagement. From an economic standpoint, focusing on Ikigai can lead to a financial burden on insurance and insured individuals, thereby contributing to reduction of national society's social costs, security costs. We believe that ikigai is a significant concept with considerable potentials.
Speaker 1:All right. So there's two things here, really, your study revealed. It starts with psychological health. One must have psychological health, and then from that this leads to also maintaining physical and social health.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And then for the country, this is a positive thing. If someone has a sense of ikigai in their old age, it would suggest that I guess they're proactive in community, they can look after themselves and they're not a burden on the government and they're not, I guess, eating up resources where they need care or they need medical attention or perhaps even psychological assistance. And with Japan's aging population, the more healthy elderly people outing the community, maybe they're contributing to the community. That's obviously a very positive thing rather than, I guess, elderly people being very dependent on the government and funding.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:This is also something you're forecasting. Yeah, as more and more Japanese age, there'll be more demand on government resources, and added to that is the decreasing population with more and more reduction in the workforce. It's going to be very hard to tax a reduced workforce to fund the health of the elderly.
Speaker 2:Exactly yes, I think through the results of this study, Kigai has very significant potential to reduce the cost of government insurances. It's potential IKIGA has potential.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is fascinating. So it's not just important individually for a person's way of living and what makes their life worth living. It seems it's quite important for, you know, the whole country of Japan, that if people have a strong sense of ikigai, it has this compound positive effect on Japanese society and reduces, yes, insurance and, I guess, the burden of, you know, resources to treat people who are depressed or who become weak because they're not physically and socially active. So ikigai is really crucial for the well-being of the individual, but also for prosperity of Japan, and probably we could say that's true for all countries.
Speaker 2:Other countries Ikigai research is also reported, like the Netherlands and European countries. But Japan has a very important fear for Ikigai research because of the highest aging rate in the world.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's interesting because many Japanese I speak to about ikigai, usually they're surprised oh why do you know this word, nick? Like ikigai, and many do not know that it is an area of research in Japan. They just think it's just a Japanese word they occasionally think about. So it's a very interesting word. It's used casually, yet it's also this area of deep research in Japan related to, yeah, all these areas of health. However, with studies, with all studies, there are limitations, and so you noted there were several limitations in your study. What were they?
Speaker 2:At first, the participants were a unique group of older adults living in heli and buntless regions in Japan. Regions in Japan Compared to urban and rural areas. There are many restrictions to daily life in this area, such as mobility and shopping, and social situations is not always changed through the lifetime, because work life and daily life are comparatively one entity. This study did not examine the effect of confounding factors such as vision and hearing disorders and educational background, which are thought to influence ikigai, including these regional characteristics. This is one of the limitations of this study and should be examined in the future.
Speaker 2:Another limitation is regarding the assessment of ikigai. In this study, ikigai was assessed through the self-rated score on the scale of 0 to 5. Although the question item on ikigai was set based on the previous report, but the reliability and validity of this method have not been examined. Ikigai is the integration of objects and the feeling associated with its object, which is difficult to assess because it has spiritual aspects in addition to elements such as the will to live, a sense of being, dreams and a sense of fulfillment in life. Today, there is no assessment that can be used globally and across generations, from adolescent to older age. As Ikigai is subjective, the visual analog scale may be preferable. The development of an assessment questionnaire for Ikigai with problem reliability and variability is needed for future studies.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's interesting and I guess with all studies there are limitations. You can't do one study that explores all facets of ikigai in all areas of the human you know, our daily living, our mental health, our physical health, our hearing, our ability to taste and see and whatnot. But it is interesting to see the integration or the idea or almost the definition of having an object of ikigai. So ikigai, taisho and feelings ikigai. So ikigai um, taisho and feelings ikigai kan, which is obviously a reference to the work of miyako kamiya, who was japan's research pioneer on the subject. I always enjoy seeing her work being referenced and then you point to this idea or this truth.
Speaker 1:I guess that Ikigai has all these elements, it's subjective, it can be spiritual, very philosophical. So I guess it is hard to measure because of these multifaceted elements to what makes life worth living. So it is a challenge at the same time.
Speaker 2:Yes, some report assessment ikigai is reported have been reported, but to almost to the elderly people, but adolescents also, adolescents having ikigai, also adolescents having ikigai. So the ikigai assessment is addressing to elderly is very important, but also the differentiation between them can be reported.
Speaker 1:Yes, I've seen a few studies. There's a few scales. There's obviously the ikigai 9. Yes, ikigai 9. There's also a four-factor scale that I stumbled upon where Ikigai was expressed. For younger people, ikigai is felt or expressed as passion, and then for older people, ikigai is this internal, calm, continuous experience. So Ikigai also changes over time, and I guess the way it's experienced has changed over time.
Speaker 2:Yes, in this Mima Song study we measure the kind of ikigai also. So we have not reported in the articles but like build a plant, japanese name bonsai, yes, bonsai on the land, small calibrated land work life task is ikigai and many kind of ikigai can obtain in this Koi Valley area, can obtain in this quadral area. So in the future we will report the kind of wikigai in the healing and mantras regions.
Speaker 1:Great. Well, when you've done another paper, we can have you back on the podcast.
Speaker 2:We have planned.
Speaker 1:Okay, I mean, it's a fascinating question how do you measure the answer to the question of what makes life worth living? It's very challenging because it is, yeah, so subjective and individualistic, as I said before, influenced by our age, where we live, our social network, whether we're working or not working. Do we have a family or do we?
Speaker 2:live alone.
Speaker 1:So do we have hobbies? Is religion important in our life? So it's quite a challenge, I think. Taku to measure ikigai. So with that, let's get a little bit personal. What about you, taku to measure ikigai? So with that, let's get a little bit personal. What about you, taku? What is your ikigai?
Speaker 2:Yes, I have several ikigai now. One is spending time with my family, bringing my children when I get home and going out with my family on holidays are very important goals and ikigai for me, and to communicate new findings to society as a researcher, which definitely my ikigai is as well. To this end, I would like to live a better life, taking into account affective, psychological conditions in my daily life.
Speaker 1:I see. Well, I'm very happy to help you with your Ikigai and communicate your new findings to society as a researcher. So, yeah, when you do another paper on Ikigai, I'd love to have you back on the podcast. Thank you very much. So, thank you for your time today, and do you have a website or a social media account where you share your research?
Speaker 2:Oh sure, this is my research map address. Okay, I have a research map address.
Speaker 1:We'll share that in the podcast notes, so we'll link to the paper and your research map address. But thank you very much for your time today.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm very happy to talk with you about Ikigai.
Speaker 1:Me too, and maybe I'll come and see you and we can visit this beautiful area that you live. You live in Tokushima, so you live. I have to remember the name of the area, is it?
Speaker 2:Koya, koya, daera area.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, so I'd love to come and meet you in person.
Speaker 2:Yes, I hope you come to Koya Daera, area with rich nature.
Speaker 1:Okay, Well, that's a universal source of ikigai. I think Everyone can find or feel a sense of ikigai in nature, so I'd love to do that. All right, Thank you Taku. Thank you Nick.