The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
The Outdoors as a Catalyst for Personal Growth and Discovery with Cory McGowan
What can we gain from spending time outdoors?
While nature is commonly linked to well-being, it also serves as a powerful tool for personal growth and transformation.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Cory McGowan to discuss how he integrates nature and adventure into his coaching, helping individuals unlock their full potential and achieve personal growth.
What interests me more and more about nature and what I've kind of experienced more and more since we've been out here so much closer to it than the 10 or so years we were in Tokyo, is the literal non-separation between us and nature. Even using the word nature or earth or outdoors indicates that there's that it's something that's not us. And what interests me more and more is like how am I actually the thing that I'm also experiencing Right? How is that? There's actually no separation between me and that tree that's right there and what's that like? And I don't really know the answer to that, but that's kind of what interests me more and more is like how am I actually this environment and how is this environment me?
Speaker 2:Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom. My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Corey Magowan, american by birth, decades in Japan, global citizen and certified and an experienced professional coach. Corey is a leadership and executive coach and guides adventurous leaders to create results by going beyond what they are doing and looking at who they are being, with his transformational coaching practice in Japan that incorporates nature, the outdoors and adventure, so working with you sounds like it would be a lot of fun, corey. Thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks, Nick, for offering to do this together.
Speaker 2:Not at all. So let's get some background what brought you to Japan and what has kept you there for so long?
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of a not an uncommon story. I guess I came here somewhat on a whim with a buddy of mine who had been in Japan for a couple of years. He was going back to study more Japanese and had found a Japanese school down in Aichiken and sounded interesting to me. I had spent most of my twenties going on different international travels and escapades and hadn't been to Asia yet. So I rocked up with a backpack and a surfboard and thought I'd study for a few months and see what it was like, immediately, ran out of money and then fell into an English teaching job which actually worked out really well.
Speaker 1:I come from a family of educators so I really liked working in education and getting good at teaching. I especially enjoyed working with kids and actually had to go home for a bit when my mom got sick and passed and just felt like I wasn't done with Japan. So I came back this time to Chiba, worked at a much bigger organization and worked quickly from teaching into the recruiting side of things and that took me into the next job that a lot of foreigners do here, which is being a recruiter, and did that for about a year and a half and in a lot of ways it didn't feel like a fit. I didn't feel like I fit in the business world and in a suit and all of that, and found a cool opportunity working at what's called an edutainment theme park.
Speaker 1:It's this place called Kidzania, which had started in Mexico and Tokyo was its first international franchise. So I got to join a company that was really fresh and new and pretty soon after starting and got to work my way up fairly quickly there up to a director level role. So I had my first experience as kind of higher level management in an organization and the first foreigner that had done that in that organization and quickly saw like wow, management is really I don't know if it's okay to swear on the show or not, but it's quite, you know and just a growing curiosity about like why does this happen? You know, why does management turn out the way that it does? And that kind of led me down the path of learning more about organizational development and eventually that led me to coaching.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, it's quite a unique journey, a lot of. I mean, I have so many friends who went to Japan or met so many foreigners in Japan who did the teaching thing, and then eventually everyone goes home and then you're sort of the one odd one out who stays. But when did you first arrive in japan?
Speaker 1:uh 1999.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I spent the uh new year's into 2000 here, yeah yeah, okay yeah, yeah yeah, I was there for the two way the bug, what they call that bug.
Speaker 1:The Y2K thing.
Speaker 2:Y2K. Yeah, all right, but I did. Yeah, I sort of kept coming and going to Japan, but it sounds like you've stayed there pretty much since what? The early 2000s?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I said, I had that one short stint to go home. And when I say I wasn't done with Japan, I think it was a combination of like not like being curious, having made some really good friends here, but also just not really knowing what the hell I was I was doing with myself. You know, I had just lost my mom, which was unexpected, and didn't really feel like I had a place that fit back in the US. And, yeah, I'd been getting up to some really fun stuff in Japan and, yeah, decided to come back and have just continued to have like a community of friends and work that I enjoyed, and I didn't actually meet my now wife until I was 35. So that was, you know, six or seven years after first arriving.
Speaker 2:Okay, wow, yeah, I probably lost my mom the same time as you and I was. I went back to, I came back to Australia to be with her and then, yeah, kind of felt the need to go back to Japan after all of that. So, yeah, I love japan, you obviously do so. We'll talk more about that and we'll talk about where you live, minakami.
Speaker 1:So tell me what life is like there oh man, it'd be a long podcast if I told you all the stuff that I loved about minakami. But uh, yeah, it's just. It's an incredible community landed here kind of through a friend who had a place out here, an australian friend, actually, a lot of uh aussies and kiwis out here, very fewer of us americans, which is probably good for me, um, um, but yeah, it's just this. It's a pretty humble blue collar and agricultural town that has quite a few onsens, so it's got a bit of a tourist industry as well. But it's got amazing access from Tokyo. You ride the bullet train for about an hour and five minutes and you're here.
Speaker 1:So the first year that we moved out here from Tokyo, I actually commuted by Shinkansen into work for a year and it was totally doable. So we're right on the foot of what's called the Tanigawa mountain range, which is this mountain range that separates this prefecture of Gunma from the next one, niigata, and then Niigata is right on the ocean. So it's just this cool combination of really beautiful mountains. We've got the Tanigawa river, which is the second longest river in Japan, and then a lot of other rivers that feed into that, so just a lot of beautiful wildlife, really. Your listeners may be familiar with, like rural Japan and how it can be quite closed even to Japanese people. And Minakami is really the opposite of that. We've always experienced it to be a very open and generous community, and there have been foreigners living here probably 40 to 50 years anyways, people that are drawn to the outdoor scene and the beauty of it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's quite the place All right, sounds like a good place, so I'll come and visit, yeah, yeah, so, as you know, you've been on my radar for a while and even now and then I would see these LinkedIn posts and thought, oh, I've got to reach out to Corey. So I'd like to share one of them that you posted actually quite recently, and it's about vulnerability, and I appreciate that. I sort of really appreciate people being vulnerable and I think it's something we need to see more. So I'll quote you and we can touch on it. You wrote have you smiled from your heart?
Speaker 2:Yet this year, to be honest, it has taken me longer than I would have liked. I ended 2024 with so much energy for the projects that I wanted to take on this year and yet, despite a solid two weeks off for the holidays, when I started back, I couldn't find that energy. Instead, I felt loneliness. I love my work and yet I had a stark awareness of how isolated I can feel as a solopreneur, heading to my office on my own without colleagues to chat with. And, yeah, I kind of instantly resonated with this related to this and thought, yeah, that's pretty much what I feel sometimes and that's what I do.
Speaker 2:I work alone. I have, of course, a lot of connections, but, yeah, most of the time I'm by myself getting my work done. And yeah, me too. At the end of last year I was both burnt out and also excited for what was possible this year, but I kind of collapsed into this state of I'm tired and I feel lonely, and it seemed different to other times, but I'm out of it now, so that's good. So I know you've had your first heart smile this year, so do you want to share what that was?
Speaker 1:Sure, and just to be fully transparent, like, I love that you brought this up and I still feel like I'm in the rawness of it. You know like it turns out having a heart smile doesn't just like make everything. I love that you brought this up and I still feel like I'm in the rawness of it. You know, like, um, uh turns out, having a heart smile doesn't just like make everything go perfectly Right, um, so, yeah, there's um, there's a thing of like, um, kind of feeling like I can't quite get out of my own way, you know, and like create the momentum and the projects that I, that I have lined up for this year. But the great kind of smile and day that I had was just getting to go out snowboarding with my boys.
Speaker 1:I have two teenage boys, 17 and 14, um, and they're great boys and they're independent teenage boys and they want to, for the most part, do the thing with their friends.
Speaker 1:But, uh, that you know they surprised me with wanting to go out riding with me, and so we made a day of it and had a lot of beautiful snow and we went to a resort that we hadn't been to before and it was just like seeing the two of them, you know, in the fresh snow and the whoops of like joy and and just doing their thing thing, um, and it's just like the simplicity of like this is, this is what it's all for. Yeah, you know, like this is, this is what the work is for, this is what the kind of the challenging times are for is just like. So we get to do these simple things, we get to spend some time together, we get to be out in nature, we get to, we get to whoop out loud, um, when we're having some fun. So, yeah, it was nice, it was just like kind of, it was like a recentering and like, oh, yeah, I'm, I'm here to help the boys have these experiences and also have these experiences myself as well nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it doesn't take much. All it takes is sometimes just to spend a bit of quality time with the people you love. And, as you touched on it, yeah, obviously it's not the answer to all life's problems and challenges, but it is what you live for and I guess maybe because it's as boys grow and I guess you do end up spending less time with them when you do spend that time with them, it's very precious and meaningful with them. When you do spend that time with them, it's very precious and meaningful. I have a boy who's turning 21 soon and it's in these playful moments that I really enjoy, where, I don't know why, we're kind of going back to an activity we used to do when he was much younger.
Speaker 2:But we have this soft toy bird that's really for my cat. We're sort of having these throwing competitions into the laundry basket and there's like a penalty and the loser has to go out shopping and buy some snacks or, you know, pick up dinner. So it's like that's. It doesn't take much to have a bit of fun. Yeah, but with Japan and I've experienced this you do have, you know, isolation and loneliness, which I did struggle with at times. So how do you handle that? And is it better that you are in a place with nature and away from the hustle and bustle of city, or is it, yeah, the same type of loneliness, or is it a different type of loneliness?
Speaker 1:yeah, great question. I mean, first I'm I'm someone that's always been really comfortable on my own, like the majority of kind of travels and adventures I've been on have been solo and have also been like really lonely during some of those times. You know, it's like a, um, kind of self-created initiation experiences, you know, and so that's that's part of it. And then you know, I think part of it for for coaches in particular, and probably similar for like therapists and other people working in development work these days, you know the beauty of getting to do it online and the beauty of how relatively easy it'd be, it can be, to start your own business and do this thing. Then the other side of it is that you're sitting in your own space doing it and also, like in the work that we do, we take on a lot from people, right, we take on a lot in terms of the stuff that they're being with and the kind of the energy that comes through being in conversation with them. You know I used to have some good friends who were massage therapists way back when and they used to talk about just like the impact of working particularly with people who are like real kind of like rigid and all that and what it was like and, um, it's, I think it's really similar. You know, we're working with people on some real deep shit in their lives and, um, it can be easy to take some of that on Right. So, um, the ways that I have to deal with it you know.
Speaker 1:First, I have personal practices that I do every day, things like journaling and meditation and movement routines. I am outside almost every day for one reason or another, even if it's just the walk from my house to the office, but I'm outside quite a bit. And then, like, try to have as many intentional like communities and support systems as I can. So it's like coaching colleagues, and a lot of them are based outside of Japan but having I have one in particular, really core community that I work with, and then I'm focusing more and more on developing really local community. So I have, I have some good friends here in Minakami and I have some programs that I've started in Minakami that are basically around bolstering community, because I need it.
Speaker 1:You know, I think a lot about what it's going to be like to be an old man here, an old foreigner here, and like, I want, I want to make sure I have my people, you know the people that I feel really connected to. So so, yeah, those are, those are the kind of the things that I'm like intentionally working towards and yeah. And then, you know again, there's like this sense of coming out to feel very privileged, to have this beautiful space that I work in. It's just this office that's big enough for me and a client to sit in, with a view of a river, and all that. And, yeah, you can also be like, fuck, yeah, it's just me. Who am I going to reach out to? You know?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a really proactive way to handle life and loneliness when it visits, and I love the idea of community, idea of community, and that's something I've created online, but I'm really looking forward to creating it in person in Japan. And, yeah, there's nothing quite like connecting with people in person and sharing and finding similarities and unique differences and celebrating that and just having a good time and realizing ah, it's always with people that you seem to have the best moments in life. So it sounds like this life you've built for yourself has made you more resilient. Would that be a fair statement, because not many people do what you do? Yeah, it comes with all these challenges learning language, culture, taking risk. I imagine your previous employment was financially a good gig, but you couldn't. Your value system or who you were was saying I can't do this anymore. Yeah, so you probably took risk as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's something that I've actually been pretty comfortable with for most of my life. You know, that's just the adventure aspect. I've always really thrived on change and actually struggle with like sameness. So, you know, becoming a father and a husband and you know, doing the right thing of having the good job in a corporate environment and all that was, uh, that was hard man, that was really hard. I don't think I realized how hard it was until I came out here and got to start to peel back some of those layers, you know, and it came with a lot of costs I mean, like kind of my.
Speaker 1:My key change story here is that I got what I thought was the dream job of being a COO of an outdoor and adventure company.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh yeah, now I'm working in my town and doing this kind of job that I want to do, and within a year it had all fallen apart dramatically, which was partly COVID related and partly related to, you know, kind of a fault in leadership, both on the guy that was running the organization and, frankly, on me. You know I wasn't the right guy for the role and that threw me into a real spin of like I've got no job I'm supposed to provide for my family, there's no way I'm going back to Tokyo and putting a suit on. So you know what the hell am I going to do? And it was also my first experience with kind of doing the counterintuitive thing and be like I'm going to spend some money and get my own frigging coach Cause I don't know what to do right now. And that was a real game changer for me. I mean, I was already a coach at that point and I had done some coaching, but I'd never invested in it for myself. And yeah boy, that really changed things.
Speaker 2:It certainly can. Perspective's so valuable when you often have these beliefs that things are going to be difficult or hard or that you're not quite ready yet. And then you have someone challenge all that and say, well, hang on, is that true? Yeah, what if it was easy? And yeah, one conversation or a handful of conversations can really change your life, you know, and I guess, change the trajectory of your life. And, yeah, I guess you end up also with your choices. You decide the life you're living and I'm kind of amazed that most of us don't really have control. You know, think we don't have control of that or we allow society or our families or other people kind of guide us on what we should do, never really contemplating deeply on thinking what do I really want to do and is it worth the risk? And it absolutely is in most cases.
Speaker 1:And what's the expression.
Speaker 2:I'd rather try something on my own than not try at all and live a life where I'd rather try something on my own than not try at all and live a life where I'm living in conflict with my values. Yeah, you'd rather try and fail than not try at all. So, yeah, let's switch gears and look at adventure, something important to you. So you guide adventurous leaders and I'd like to know what you mean by adventure and who are these adventurous leaders you work with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I appreciate that question because I think, you know, adventure can often get put into like this idea of extreme things. You know, extreme types of expeditions and stuff like that, and I've done a little bit of that. But that's not like, that's not really what gets me excited. You know what's, as you were mentioning, like the choices I've made, particularly in the past four or five years, are stuff that I never imagined that I could or would do, and it often scares the shit out of me as I'm doing it. But it's just about. It's about choosing kind of the bold thing that really excites you, Right.
Speaker 1:And so when I talk about adventurous leaders, I mean, first of all, leadership itself is innately adventurous, right. And so I want to work with people who are willing to make kind of the bold choices probably the counterintuitive choices and people that are willing to come out here and be with me a bit in the outdoors. And you know, what we do when they're out here depends on a combination of things, right, it depends on their comfort level, of course, safety and all of that, but it's actually a willingness to really be together in person for, you know, usually three days, and really get into some stuff. You know, like what's really, what's? What do you want to create? What's what's kind of underneath, maybe some of the, the ways of being or thoughts that you think are in the way of creating those results? Yeah, and the outdoors are.
Speaker 1:It's great Like getting people into the outdoors is such a cool mirror for how they are in complex leadership situations. You know, I just see it again and again and it always just makes me laugh. It's just laugh with joy, right, Like not laughing at the leaders. There it is again, so it's really cool.
Speaker 2:It does sound cool.
Speaker 2:nature and the outdoors is such a conducive environment to to growth or change, or to reflection or to realizing oh, the world is so much bigger and I'm a part of it, even if it's just a small part of it. I'm part of this and I mean we. We talk about health. So we talk about usually health is diet, exercise and sleep. I think eventually there'll be people start saying the research shows time in nature is crucial to your health, your well-being, and most people don't spend any time in nature during their work week and if they're lucky they might get away. But we think about exercises, going to the gym often. You know a lot of people run, but they're still not running in nature. So is that how you see nature? Like? It's this environment that does so much for you physically, emotionally, spiritually and so on.
Speaker 1:I'll give that a yes, and Because it's what interests me more and more about nature and what I've kind of experienced more and more since we've been out here so much closer to it than the you know 10 or so years we were in Tokyo is the literal non-separation between us and nature, right, even using the word nature or earth or outdoors indicates that it's something that's not us. And what interests me more and more is like how am I actually the thing that I'm also experiencing, right? How is that? There's actually no separation between me and that tree? That's right there, and what's that like?
Speaker 1:And I don't really know the answer to that, but that's kind of what interests me more and more is like how am I actually this environment and how is this environment me and it's I think it's the stuff that people sense when they're out here that that's true, right, that this is actually, even though it may feel a little bit scary or unfamiliar, whatever, there's also a kind of a deeper sensing of like, well, actually, this is, this is all, just actually a part of me, this is all. I'm all connected to the stuff that's out here and the things that I experience and the way that it impacts me when I'm here is because of that non-separation between myself and this natural environment that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I, yeah, I mean, I think for most people when we go back to nature, it feels very familiar, it feels like, ah, I should be here. And I mean I think Japanese, you know Shintoism touches on that idea like separating yourself from nature is very damaging and, yeah, you're a part of nature. So, yeah, I've wanted to delve into Shintoism a bit sort of that regard, learning more about it. But it sounds like a lot of your work, and this is an assumption from what I've read on your website. You talk about mind to heart ecology. Slowing down and letting go is key aspects of what you do. So, would you say, has your coaching been influenced by japanese culture and customs?
Speaker 1:well, yes, because I've been here so long, right, I mean, you know very well how much being in japan kind of makes you Japanese, even though as a foreigner you're never actually seen as Japanese, but yeah, very much. So just by being here, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But most of my training and you know kind of groups that I've been in have not been Japan-based, so it's kind of an interesting mix of the two. Yeah, what you were, what you were saying about, like Japanese people and the relationship to nature as well, I was flashing back to like when I worked at that place, kidzania. Part of the concept of that that business is that it's always located inside a shopping mall, and so I had to work inside a frigging shopping mall for seven years. Mall, and so I had to work inside a frigging shopping mall for seven years, and it always blew my mind on the most beautiful days how full these places would be of Japanese people. And it's just like what is going on here. Why are people choosing this instead of being in the outdoors? So sorry, that's a bit of an aside from what influences my coaching, but it's one of the interesting contradictions about being here and the really long and deep connection to nature that Japanese people have, right, yeah, Isn't that fascinating?
Speaker 2:It is fascinating because, I mean, I hold that perception that perhaps Japanese are more connected to nature or have an understanding of the value of nature and don't see themselves separate to it. Yet recently it seems like, as you mentioned, there's been more times indoors and shopping, and even in my wife's area in the last sort of two decades there have been talkie outlets that was built. There's been something else I can't remember the name of, but another massive shopping complex and this is almost like a country town and you know, people from Tokyo travel to Toki to shop at Toki outlets, not to check out the local culture or nature. I'm thinking, gee, that's a dedication to shopping, that.
Speaker 2:I've never seen before. So are you seeing that happen more in Japan now?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I mean again, this was quite a while ago, that was probably more than 10 years ago. So when I think about what I see out here, it's really different in rural Japan, right. Like for people in rural Japan, like going into cities and going to places like shopping malls and stuff is kind of fun because it's really different, right. A lot of the people that live out in this area are like agricultural families or families that are somehow related to the tourism industry, so they're out kind of in nature like as part of life normally, right. But I do see, like you know, there's some, some movement of Japanese people that want to be outdoors, whether it's related to outdoor stuff or living in areas like this and starting bringing their families here and starting businesses and stuff here.
Speaker 1:It's a I think it's a small movement. I've heard a bit about how. You heard a bit about how there's been a little bit of revitalization of agriculture with younger people and kind of bringing some new agricultural methods in. So I think it's still a really small percentage, but it's definitely something that's happening and exciting to see, particularly when you consider the level of depopulation in rural areas in Japan. I was going to just touch on that. Now. It seems of you know kind of depopulation in rural areas in Japan.
Speaker 2:I was going to just touch on that. Now it seems like Minakami is one of the rare towns that appears to be growing in population.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's not.
Speaker 2:It's not, no, no, no, it's shrinking.
Speaker 1:I forget, like, what the numbers are. Yeah, but it's one of my kind of my first impressions of this. When we first moved out here, we went to the elementary school to talk to the principal, where the you know the school where the boys are going to go, and they told us that there were like 160 kids at that school and like three or four years ago it had been like 450, right, so it's, the population has dropped and the past two years they've taken basically two or three different schools and put them into one. It just makes more sense financially. So no, the issue is real in Minakami as well, and you know there's movement here, there's some outside investment and you know the access is so good here. It makes a lot of sense. It's a really challenging problem.
Speaker 2:I was being quite hopeful. I thought, oh, there's one town, one rural town that's growing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, that's part of my kind of. One of my main missions in this living here is to create a town that not only my boys but like their further generations, will want to live in or come back to. So I don't know what that means in terms of growth, but you know, creating a town that's like vital enough that my sons, after they've had their chance to go different places, that they would choose Minakami over any other place in the world. So we'll see how successful I am with being a part of that.
Speaker 2:I was going to say, saying this in jest you've got to work harder, Bring more people to.
Speaker 1:Minakami. Yeah, yeah, totally Wow.
Speaker 2:Well, kind of on that theme of what you hope for the future, another LinkedIn post talked about the immediate future of experiments. Like what experiments?
Speaker 1:are you?
Speaker 2:going to do this year. That's a. That's a cool prompt, that's a cool question. So what kind of experiments are you planning to run in your work and life this year?
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks, that's probably my favorite part of being an entrepreneur and I'm definitely not one of those people who always wanted to be an entrepreneur, kind of like I said. It kind of fell on me, but I love it. I love to play, and so, like I said at the end of last year, there's like a lot of stuff that's coming up. One that I kind of started last year was running motorcycle tours, so bringing people from overseas to come and ride here, partly because I love to ride and Japan has such great roads, but also for me, that's a form of networking that excites me. People that are adventurous enough to travel to another country and ride a motorcycle are probably the type of people that would be a great fit for me in terms of the coaching that I do and the type of people that I want to work with. So, hoping to do a bit more of that this year. A lot of my experimenting is focused on my local community, like I said. So I've got a project coming up where I'm going to interview a bunch of small business owners here, partly to do something like you're doing create a podcast to kind of promote their work, but also to start to understand what are some of the ins and outs of Inaka rural-based business, so that people who want to start something in these areas can, but also to see, like well, how could we actually support each other, like what are some of the continuing needs of these small business owners. So I'm really excited about getting to do that. I love podcasts and interview as a medium. I haven't really done it much, so I'm excited to jump into that.
Speaker 1:I also started a community project last year that's called Haretoke and that's this. It's a community event where we bring together a local chef and a local artist and then local people from the community enjoy the art, enjoy the food and then get into some talk based on a theme. So I'm doing this with a friend of mine who is also a Japanese woman, who's also a coach, and so we bring a theme to it and get people to speak to the theme and then we, at the end of the discussion, moves towards what kind of a community do you want to live in in Minakami. So kind of starting to create a bit of future visioning, the idea being that you can't really depend necessarily on, like the town offices and some of those places to make proactive change in community. So kind of like a grassroots idea like well, why don't we start to get into conversation about it and see, like, what would we love to have in this town? So that's a that's a continuing experiment. That's been really fun as well.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Yeah, I love when you said this idea of play, like you can take your work and think, oh, I just want to play my work, what can I do? So that's, that's a cool way to frame it. So that's, that's a cool way to frame it.
Speaker 1:And so does hara toke. So hara means the gut, it's actually hare. So hare toke. So hare is like a festival day, like a matsuri day, and ke is like a normal day. So the idea of like how do we find the special in the normal and how do we make the everyday special type of thing right? Um, and the full name of the project is minakami haritoke stories, the idea being that stories are such an old way that we interact as humans and so how, like, as you were saying, how do we get people back in person and how do we get them ideally around a fire, and then how do we get to prompt some stories out of them so that we create deeper, deeper connection and some kind of future vision through stories?
Speaker 2:love it. Yeah, I thought you said huddle and that might be related to the chef. You know cooking, satisfy the stomach or something hopefully that's an outcome also. It has been so far yeah, so I think we're touching on this idea of retreats and leadership work.
Speaker 1:And so I think you've touched on what you're doing there.
Speaker 2:So do you want to expand on the other work you do in that space?
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, so the majority of the coaching I do is still individually based, and so one of the core in-person programs I have with individual clients I call Wilderness Visioning Retreats, which is three days out here in Minakami.
Speaker 1:I'm staying at a really nice glamping venue eating good food but then also going on some outdoor adventure with the idea of you leave that program with a clear vision and plan of kind of what you want to create through the work together. But then I've also run some group retreats out here. I've had a men's group that I've run off and on and had a retreat for the men out here, and then I've run some different company off-sites out here as well. So, again, bringing people out into the outdoors, bringing them together at a really nice and comfortable venue, but then also using local outdoor guides to bring them, like, out onto the river or up a mountain or or something like that. Yeah, and it's definitely my my favorite part of my work and I was excited to talk to you today because I know you've done it in Gufoo and wanted to swap stories a bit of like, yeah, what's it like to do it there? And yeah, what do you find that's good about that area?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a great experience, the retreat I did in November and you know, being the first one, and obviously under the theme of ikigai. And I mean, you'd understand, it's not really a word Japanese use that often and it's usually very often personal, obviously subjective, but it also has become a word of psychological study. And, yeah, the last four years I've interviewed all these experts and whatnot and there was always this idea I would eventually do a retreat and I was always talking about it, kind of knowing it was always this idea I would eventually do a retreat, and I was always talking about it, kind of knowing it was always this pie in the sky kind of thing. And I wasn't really being honest with myself because I wasn't really taking any action at all to instigate it. And then, just last year, I thought that's it, it's got to happen, I've got to do it this year and I thought you know what would be ideal. But I realized you know what would be ideal. But I realised first I have to find accommodation.
Speaker 2:I've got to find accommodation for six people and I had all these ideas. And do I make it large and reasonably affordable, which I thought, oh, that's going to be extremely challenging.
Speaker 1:Or do I make?
Speaker 2:it more intimate, have more activities, have people be able to have access to these experts I've spoken to. So I started to craft, or just imagine and then craft what would be the retreat, and it was a one-day workshop in Tokyo where we got to have, you know, ken Moggi showed up and another professor who's become a really good friend, daiki Kato, and he introduced rolefulness, which is oddly a term he's coined and he's written on. That's how we connected. We had a calligrapher, naoko Mikami, a few other people, koji Miki and Naoko Tomita, who ran something on purpose, and this was all in one day. So it was a very, very big sort of started with a bang and that was.
Speaker 2:We did that at like a vegan cafe in Yoyogi, because we had a lot of people with specific dietary requirements. So that was I mean, that was a challenge to get all that organized. And we even went to a like. We did Shoujin. We went to one Michelin star Shoujin Ryori restaurant, so, like you know, like a vegan restaurant, and that was amazing. And then the next day we took the Shinkansen to Gifu, and then that's where I guess the experiential started. And we did Zen, we did sutra tracing, we did this beautiful Zen temple, where we got special access. Wow cool, we did indigo dyeing.
Speaker 2:We had guest speakers and yeah, it was interesting because it was my first time and I was probably a little bit almost on edge like is everything going okay? But at the same time it went really well. The group dynamic was fantastic and I had someone helping me, a really good friend helping me, who rented a van, so it was small enough that we didn't need to hire a commercial bus or anything. And there were some challenges, like most of the people were jet lagged, so which it lacked, so that was hard for them. I damaged my achilles heel, sort of two days before coming from melbourne. I was limping for the entire retreat so I thought everyone thought, oh, nick's been hiding this problem for for the last four years or something. But and probably what I learned was you maybe I did too many activities and we didn't really do as much meaningful discussion as I hoped.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there was certainly a lot of group intimacy and it was very, very special and we certainly got to or the group certainly got to taste Japan and Japanese culture, yeah, obviously, away from all the tourist spots and, you know, see things they obviously wouldn't normally see in their normal life. And yeah, it was very it was like an ikigai experience, because it had these challenges, it had all this uncertainty and it resulted in a really wonderful shared experience with connection, intimacy, learning new things, a bit of self-discovery and great food and really looking forward to the next one. So, yeah, it was a great success. So onward and upward for the next one yeah.
Speaker 1:I love the intimate size that you keep it at. Man, that's, that's really cool. I was. I was looking at the one you have coming up on the website and it looks amazing and I find that so relatable what you're saying about like, well, I gotta, I gotta fill this time up with structure and I gotta have all these things, because what if people don't know what to do and then, and then the magic of being like on retreat and together is that that stuff, like actually, if you leave space for it, that's where the magic comes in.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like people start to create it, like once you're kind of like a catalyst and then but once you're in the space, it's like okay, here we go, you know, and, and people show up. And people show up up and really bring the cool stuff that creates all the activities you did sound amazing and people tend to create the most memorable moments just in some of the open spaces in between. So, yeah, I totally find that relatable. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it seemed to I don't know, it seemed to flow so well, like we, because there are all these logistics and driving here and there, I mean, and that's why I didn't want to go to three different cities or towns. We pretty much stayed in one town and then there was another town we took by train and it's like a retro train and so just sitting on the train and one of our attendees, mira, who I actually just interviewed, and she's from the ukraine and she has this, you know, a tragic yet inspiring story of, you know, losing everything and having to move to germany. She had a shirt saying ikigai, your life. So she's kind of turned Ikigai into a verb. And we're on this small train and then this, I don't know, this 70-year-old lady, you know, with curly hair, very short Japanese lady, thinking oh, there's no way she would be able to speak English started sort of speaking fluent english to her saying, oh, what's this icky guy thing? Yeah, wearing.
Speaker 2:And they had this amazing conversation just on the train ride and I just sat back and kind of watched it all and thought, oh, this is fascinating, having these special moments where, yeah, it'll probably be one of their highlights and it's something so simple, just talking to a stranger on the train about you know their lives and Japanese culture. So I think you're right, the magic can happen in the most unlikely places and, yeah, to observe that was really, really special. So, yeah, I'm kind of inspired by your work and these retreats. So do you want to give us a taste of, like one of your upcoming ones or things you have planned, like a specific example?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean the. The one that I'm kind of most interested in inviting people to is is what I mentioned about the wilderness visioning retreat, and up until now that's been. You know, when I, when I get into a coaching engagement with someone, it's usually starts with a year commitment and that's like the first part of it. But what I'm interested in more and more is just offering that as a, as a one-off by itself. Right, just come, because there's so much value in clarifying like, what am I working towards in the next six to 12 months? And like what is it beyond what I think is actually possible because of you know, whatever beliefs I have? And then also the structure of like, well, yeah, well, what would it take? Also, like, what declarations are my willing to make about the outcomes and what are some of the steps that it will require along the way? So, yeah, I'd love to.
Speaker 1:For people that are in Japan, or even people that are traveling to Japan, it's a three-day offering that I'd love to have more people come out and experience, and part of what excites me about that so much is that it also means that I get to, through that business, contribute to the partners that I use for it right, like the venue that people stay at and the food and the, the guide partners that I use. So, um, yeah, combine it with a, with a visit to Japan or something else, or if you're already here, then then come out, and it's really easy to get here.
Speaker 2:I love it. Maybe I'll sign up so, but we'll link to that if you want from the show notes. Love to support you on that and on this theme. I have another quote from LinkedIn which I really connected to, so I'll share that you wrote.
Speaker 2:This morning I'm doing one of my favorite parts of my work going to a local Shinkansen station to pick up some clients who are coming to Minakami for a leadership team offsite that I will lead. There's a tension in these moments before they arrive, of not knowing how it will go or what we will co-create today, and underneath that there's a deeper calm and knowing and I thought, wow, that's what I experienced when I was waiting for my guests I mean my first two guests to arrive at Tokyo Station and they were coming all the way from Germany, these two lovely Ukrainian women, and I thought how do I greet them and what do I say? And I thought it's all okay, Like you've already done that, you know these people Just embrace it, yeah, so do you want to touch on that? Because I love that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, what kind of what that's pointing to? For me, and even in the way that you talked about it is, there's like all the preparation that we've done to lead up to that moment is what will hold the retreat itself and the people that join, you know. So it's part of it, is like whatever specific work we did to prepare for this actual event. But there's also our whole frigging lives. You know, like everything that we've done in our lives informs the way that we create these spaces, right, and so creating some structure, having a plan for what we're going to do with people, is important. But equally important is how do I step out of the way, right, how do I just allow, you know, kind of trust that what I've brought together, the people that I've brought together, are the right people in the right place under the right circumstances, and how can I move out of the way to allow this space to happen?
Speaker 1:And that can be super challenging, especially when you're new to it. Right, it's just like no, I got to be in control, I got to know what time this is happening and what time that's happening. And you know, particularly when you work in Japan. One of the beauties of working in Japan is shit is so organized, right, but then also people want to know that stuff from you, like what time are you going to eat? And this and this, like well, I'm not really sure, so, so you can bump up. You can bump up against that a little bit in like the, the, the allowing and the openness, but it's a. It's an interesting tension between the two, right, and Japan is just such a great environment for getting to live that tension and create cool spaces for people.
Speaker 2:That's certainly what I felt. I don't think I could have done it here, and even just your network. And I remember I had to book seven Shinkansen seats from Tokyo to Nagoya and I got online and I could only get six. There was a limit. And I'm like, oh man, I've got to get these seats.
Speaker 2:And then I think I remember the weekend we were arriving, there was some significant holiday, and so I rang this or just sent this message to my mate. The weekend we were arriving, there was some significant holiday, and so I rang this or just sent this message to my mate saying, as you know, I'm doing this thing and he's got a company, so I thought he can probably help out. I said can you get some Shinkansen tickets for me? Like, can you do this online from you know, within Japan? Yeah, and he said, said I'll take a look. And he said I can't, but don't worry about it, I'll go get them tomorrow morning. And he got up like six o'clock and went and got them for me, paid for them, like, and said don't worry about the money, like, pay me when you, when you when you're here and he just took that problem away and it's.
Speaker 2:It's so helpful when you have these Japanese friends who go out of their way to help you and then they're like, oh no, it was nothing. Yeah, so that's helpful. And then, yeah, as you say you can do, obviously the preparation really helps and you have all these things ready and you have a schedule. But, yeah, not everything goes to plan and you've got to be comfortable with, at times, letting things go, stepping out of the way and seeing what happens, and I think grasping for control often will result in things going getting out of control. So I like that it's like the gentle way almost result in things going getting out of control. I like that. It's like the gentle way, almost like just let it happen, and it's probably usually a valuable insight or learning as well. So, yeah, it's fascinating what can happen when you bring people together. Yeah, it's pretty magical.
Speaker 2:So what else is magical is nature. We've touched on this, but I suspect this is a strong source of ikigai in your life and, as I touched on, I think it's certainly a universal source. It's probably a pillar of health. We haven't really recognised enough and we neglect it. It obviously you don't. So what do you love about nature? Why do you love it so much?
Speaker 1:one of my kind of favorite experiences since we've moved out here. And you know, I grew up in a pretty rural place, right, so I'm used to being around nature when I was a kid, but I think when you're kid it's just like all like the same anyways, right, it's. You don't have the same appreciation, especially after living in a metropolis like Tokyo for a while, but the thing that I've, one of the things I've enjoyed the most is the subtlety in the seasons and you're probably familiar with in Japan, like the, the, there's actually 24 seasons. Right, there's a system of 24 seasons. I always forget what that's called in in japanese, but you really see it here.
Speaker 1:It's really cool, you know, just like the subtlety of, like when the leaves start to come out in the spring, and then the actual different shades of green they become, and then, like right in front of our place, where we're on the river, and it's like it's a river valley, and for me it's like, it's like lungs, right In the summer it's just thick with green and vines and like a jungle, and then in spring everything drops off and everything opens up, you know, and it's just such this cool, this cool contrast and the way the mountains look and the different times. So that's that's been. One of my favorite things is like there's so many subtleties available if we can be in an environment where we can slow down enough to see them and notice them maybe we should also just briefly touch on your boys growing up in a rural environment with so much nature, but I guess it's kind of going maybe against mainstream.
Speaker 2:You know most parents in japan would be thinking better. You know better education opportunities closer to the big cities and whatnot, how they embrace this life it's been good.
Speaker 1:So they they were like 10 and 7 when we came out here, so in a lot of ways they were kind of city boys when we moved. And one of the things that surprised me when we moved out here is, like you boys just never go outside and run around by yourselves, right, it's like when I was going outside and doing stuff with them. So that was certainly a difference to me. I lived in that environment from a much younger age but they've thrived. You know, they enjoy the outdoors, but I think the bigger thing they've thrived in is the smaller community and when I asked them what it was like to go to school here, we moved here and they're just like oh, everyone was so open and friendly, right, Just welcomed me in and it was just like it's the thing you want to hear when you make a big decision.
Speaker 1:That changes their lives, you know. So they've really thrived in being out here and have a lot of good friends and, like I said, there's a pretty good mix of Japanese and non-Japanese here. So they get to be in an environment where that's a really normal thing. They get to be in an environment where that's a really normal thing. They're one of the few, one of the very few multicultural kids in the school out here, because a lot of the kids are still younger.
Speaker 2:But, yeah they've really thrived out here, Nice. And you did mention that you know your wife's part of the business, but not part of the face of the business, and that she's been supportive of the change because she wasn't from Minakami, was she? Yeah? So how was that? Did it take any convincing or was she pretty open to the idea?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it was probably one of the biggest surprises in our relationship so far is when I you know, I remember very clearly it was a Sunday I had gone out for a run and came back we were staying here at a friend's place for the weekend and came back and called her out onto the deck of the picnic table and said, oh, I have an idea like we could live here totally. But yeah, we'd been in the conversation for a while about like being somewhere other than Tokyo. So the conversation itself wasn't new. And when she tells people why she was okay to it, okay to the ideas, one, because there's a really big supermarket here, ever practical. And then, of course, she loves the, the hot springs.
Speaker 1:She literally goes to onsen every day here. She has like a circuit that she goes to. She changes each day. So that's been great and she's been, she's been a real pillar to me getting to do all this stuff. No, I mean a lot of change, a lot of dramatic change has happened and she's just stood beside me through all of it.
Speaker 2:That's great. Yeah, I'm sorry I'm laughing because my friend who hosts the retreat said, oh, nick, we should take your group to a supermarket. I'm like what he said. You know I love it. And he's like, you know, japan supermarkets they have all these interesting things. And I thought, oh, okay, and yeah, they absolutely loved it, shopping for an hour, buying all these weird things. And I thought, oh, yeah, that's a cool idea. So Japanese supermarkets are a lot of fun, yeah, and important, obviously, yeah, definitely. That's great, though. You've got support from the better half, so awesome. So, yeah, been a pleasure, corey, to finally touch base, and we'll have to meet in person. I'd love to support what you do, so we'll put up links to your websites and these experiments you've got planned for this year, and I'd love to, yeah, meet you in person and continue the conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'd be great. Again, I appreciate the opportunity to get to chat with you, Nick. It's really interesting and definitely look forward to showing you around this place and getting to hang out in person, swap some retreat tips and stories. That'll be fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd love that. I'm sure I can learn a lot from you. So, yeah, thanks so much, Corey, and we'll speak soon. Awesome Thanks, Nick.