The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Thinking Through the Body: Cultural Perspectives on Embodied Intelligence with Igor de Almeida
How can we gain a deeper understanding of foreign concepts like ikigai and saudade?
While these concepts can be challenging to define, our bodily sensations can offer valuable insights into their deeper meanings.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Igor de Almeida to explore how cultural concepts like ikigai and saudade are embodied in our physical experiences.
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom. My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Igor del Almeida, a cultural psychologist, a social psychologist specializing in culture. Igor's research examines how culture influences people in various psychological aspects, such as emotions, thought and behavior. Currently, igor is working at Kyoto University as a junior associate professor. Welcome to the podcast, igor, and thank you for your time today.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for inviting me and for having me on this podcast and I hope I can answer a few questions and I hope it's helpful. What I have to say is not too boring, hopefully.
Speaker 1:It won't be boring and I'm sure you can answer these questions. We've prepared and, yeah, really appreciate you being here. And you actually came by way of recommendation from jamila rodriguez, who was a guest on episodes 56 and 60. So, yeah, it was good to chat to jamila about ikigai and I think she's living. She's still in okinawa she's in okinawa.
Speaker 2:She came to kyoto a year or so ago maybe more than a year and she gave a presentation and we had a meeting afterwards to talk about our research and she works in anthropology, which is a bit different from psychology, but there are a few overlaps. And then we started to discuss the possibility of some kind of collaboration and eventually we started discussing emotions and we decided to write something together and then this article came out, this article about ikigai and saudadeji and embodiments of emotions yes, we're going to dive into that, but maybe, before we do, would you like to give us some background and as to how you came to be living in japan, because you're you've settled there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it seems a bit unusual, but since I know many people who are in a very similar situation to me, I find it common somehow. But yeah, I'm from Brazil, I was born and raised in Brazil and 12 years ago, in 2013, I came to Japan to be a student at Kyoto University. In the beginning, I thought about staying in Japan for two or three years and then coming back, moving somewhere else, but then I extended a couple of times and eventually I decided to stay in Japan. Well, I got a stable job at a national university in Japan. I got married, have a family. Then it gets more difficult to move to another country or even to go back to Brazil. That's basically my story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Once you're married with kids, it's pretty hard to move. Well, thank you for sharing all that. So let's dive into your work that you did with Jamila. So, in July of 2024, you published a paper titled Ikigai and Sudachi Cultural Meanings Lived Through the Body. In it, you point out that studies on those emotions tend to focus on linguistic or cognitive aspects related to the emotions and the cultures that originated them. In this article, you argue that there is another essential dimension that needs to be considered when studying culture-specific emotions the body and its embodied experience, which has been this theme I've spoken to Jamila about. But yeah, first we need to touch on the meaning of ikigai, which I guess my listeners do know, and then sadaji, which is a fascinating word and concept. So how do you define the two concepts?
Speaker 2:I define. You and your listeners know way more about Ikigai than I do, but the way I see those two concepts is as what we call culturally specific emotions. So we have those words that are not translatable, or I mean other people can understand the concepts but it's really hard to translate and there's no single word that would convey the same meaning. When I talk about this, these emotions, I start using one very simple example of Komorebi. I don't know if you know this word.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, the sunlight passing through the tree leaves or trees to create shadow, and light, yeah, exactly so.
Speaker 2:This is something that we all can see, we all understand what it is, but but in most languages we don't have a words, one specific word, to describe this phenomenon yeah, even like a direct.
Speaker 1:A direct translation would be like leaking light or something. Yeah, leaking light yeah, so it's. Yeah, it's fascinating how many japan has these untranslatable concepts or words.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, right, uh, and even when you say leaking light, those are two words, right yeah, yeah so you need at least two words to describe it.
Speaker 2:So in in Japanese you have many of those words that are very specific to a context, and in other languages as well. I forgot to prepare some examples in English, but you probably have words that are very common in English but in other languages you have to explain. You need a while to explain what it means. One example I use in classes is bolter in English, but it's not used. It's an old word. It means to dance in a clumsy way but enjoying it with a lot of enjoyment. So when we say in English, dance as if no one is watching.
Speaker 2:When we say in English, dance as if no one is watching, I see there is one word to describe this, but those would be examples of words not related to emotions. When it comes to emotions, then you have those culturally specific emotions such as ikigai and saudade, and in German there is schadenfreude that people just borrow the words in English and other languages to describe this feeling of enjoyment when something bad happens to someone you don't like that much.
Speaker 1:We do feel that though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everybody feels those things, but you don't have a word to describe it. No, precisely.
Speaker 1:So ikigai and sodaji would fall within this category it is a fascinating concept and I I started to wonder and I think I've mentioned this on the podcast before but you know, is there a word that's culturally unique to australia, that we do use, maybe occasionally or very rarely in a casual context, but also has deep cultural value?
Speaker 1:And the only word I could come up with was mateship. Mateship, it's very hard to, yeah, it's like hikigai, it's hard to define and if you ask 10 Australians what's mateship, you'd probably get 10 different answers. So it's obviously related to friendship, but it's also tied to our history. It's tied to our involvement in world war one. It goes beyond friendship and now that we're a multicultural it might even have a slightly different meaning. And we don't really, I mean we say g'day mates and all these kind of good on your mate kind of expressions, and we don't really. I mean we say g'day mates and all these kind of good on your mate kind of expressions, but we don't use mateship that much, but there was some consideration of even putting it into, I guess, our equivalent of like the constitution. So it is culturally significant.
Speaker 1:And I guess it would tie to some emotions. You probably would feel mateship, but other than that I couldn't think of any other words that are uniquely Australian. We certainly have unique expressions, but not really words, so it is. Yeah, it is fascinating how culture produces these words and Japan seems to have so many.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, especially when you compare to European languages. Because if you compare to Chinese or to Korean, or when I present these ideas to Chinese or Korean people, they often come up with their own words and concepts. They're very similar, but I don't know, I don't know how unique or how similar those concepts and words can be. So he gave the example of mateship. In england, they, they have one word uh, there's a margie. I think it's margie, that's how it is pronounced, and they say that they only use it over there and in english it's quite a widespread language. Yeah, so you will find those words and concepts in basically every country if you look for it. That's another thing. As we go on with our lives, we don't realize which words are unique, which words you just cannot translate or use in other languages. Or even when you go to another country that speaks the same language, just you cannot communicate using that word. So if you go to the UK or to the US and talk about mateship, I don't know if people will be able to understand.
Speaker 1:I think people in the uk would definitely us might, I think people would, most people would kind of get an idea. Oh okay, it's obviously related to make you know friendship and it's even hard for australians to define I see so it's kind of like some of these japanese words. You know, you Japanese, what does ikigai mean? And you'll often hear a lot of silence and go musukashina. Like you know, that's hard to explain.
Speaker 2:It's hard to define words, right? My former supervisor does research on happiness and one of the tasks that she uses is to ask people what is happiness? So what is happiness for you? And it's, um, it's a word that everybody understands, it is in every language, it is present in every language, but it's hard to define, right? Uh, you will find many definitions, but it's uh hard to define. It's such a basic word yeah, because feeling.
Speaker 1:If you said something like, oh, feeling joy, well then, what's joy?
Speaker 2:yes, it's hard to get that. But to go back to your question and try to answer your question, so ikigai, I would go with the classic the reason to be alive, to do things, your essential motivation to do whatever you're doing, like to go on with your day, especially to dedicate yourself to some task or craft or work, job, et cetera. But Ikigai, I could define this, but well, we'll talk more about Ikigai later on. But there's more to this than just the definition. Right, about saudade, I think it's less known by your audience, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:So saudade is similar to nostalgia. It is an emotion, a feeling, and it's what we try to, what we express when we say I miss you or I miss someone else. It's a bit complex because it's ambiguous. So it is a good feeling, but at the same time it's a negative feeling, a sad feeling. So you're sad because you miss your family or you miss your friends that live in another country. So if you're sad but at the same time, if you're good, if you're a little bit happy because you have those friends and you have this good relationship with them, that is good enough that you miss them. So when you have this ambiguous, this positive and negative feeling together inside of you. That's when you feel saudade and you, you reflect upon those memories, etc.
Speaker 1:That would be the basic definition of it yeah, I was thinking about this after reading your paper and I thought I lost, I guess, a mother figure about a year ago and I'm 53 and I think from the age of eight. She'd always been in my life and she died of cancer last year and it was, you know, it's very drawn out cancer and she went through a lot of pain and both my brother and I were with her, by her bit side at times, holding her hand and helping her sons who were really struggling to do that. You know they couldn't do that. So, yeah, and I have all these fond memories of her and incredibly grateful for all that she gave me. But I just will occasionally have these thoughts oh, I miss Libby and she's not, I can't call her, I can't talk to her, and it'll kind of just pop in my head randomly and I'll feel, yeah, both this sense of loss but also gratitude that she was in my life. So would that be a feeling of Sadaji?
Speaker 2:I would say, yes, that's exactly how we describe it, how we feel it, and so, even though you're not a native speaker of Portuguese, you feel the same emotion. We share this same feeling. Right, we just don't share the word Sadadji, but yes, and it appears in these moments. They're very I won't say important and heavy in our lives when we lose someone. So, as he describes, there is this negative feeling of the loss and grief and everything that comes together, but at the same time, there's this gratitude and, uh, this nostalgia of all the good moments you had together. So that's the, that's the emotion I would say and so it sounds like it's colloquial.
Speaker 1:You might use it every day, but in your paper you reference that it's also used in poetry A lot, where there are some of these amazing descriptions of what it means. I might quote a few A worm that gaunts at my heart's core, or I only know it is bliss that pains me, which is a contradiction, and always tears come into my eyes, but deeper pity fills my heart. So I think that indicates how deep it is emotionally.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, what is interesting is that those examples, they don't come from someone who speaks Portuguese. Oh, wow, Exactly. So this word is more known as a Portuguese word, but it exists in some languages that are closely related, such as the Creole spoken in Cape Verde and Galician. And these examples they come from a. They were written by a Galician. And these examples they come from a. They were written by a Galician poet and she had a bit of a tragic life and her poetry is a bit tragic and heavy and full of these extreme emotions. So, yeah, the descriptions, they sound controversial and sometimes even impossible. It's something that I forgot to bring the example, but some people would say that's something that is very good, but it might kill me eventually. Oh, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, when you go to the extremes of saudade, then you have those expressions and those descriptions which are common in poetry. They're common in music as well. I was discussing with another colleague one of these days and they're trying to find new examples. So the example you just read is from the 19th century. So quite a while ago I was checking current music, current Brazilian music, and even in what is called Brazilian funk, that is popular music that is a bit vulgar and sexual, very sexual.
Speaker 2:They still talk about saudade, but then it's more of a sexual way like I miss, and then I miss those days when you and me would be doing those sexual activities, and then they'll be very explicit about this, but they still use, uh, the same concept. So it can go from um classical, classical poetry with all these figures and metaphors that are a bit complex, to vulgar and vulgar current music. So just to say that you can see it everywhere and in daily life we also use the words all the time. So you gave the example of a motherly figure that is very important to you and you had great moments and we use, we talk about those moments, those important figures in our lives, but we also talk about trivial things, so I can talk about how I feel saudade, of the sweets or cakes I used to eat when I was a child, for example, and those silly examples.
Speaker 1:So it's almost like I mean that context reminds me of natsukashi, that Japanese word which took me a long time to understand. And then I realized, oh, we don't say oh, how nostalgic or something. We say, oh, those, yeah, those candies remind me of my childhood, or that song reminds me of my childhood, or this memory, this fond memory, but yeah, so Sadaji sounds like it's got a lot of depth and breadth in usage, can be used in poetry and can be used in obviously daily conversation and then popular culture, where it's a bit vulgar or graphic.
Speaker 2:Very graphic, very graphic, the ones I found, because I was looking for Sadaji and I found music that was very descriptive, very, extremely graphic, and it was funny because I didn't expect it. I wasn't expecting it, but it is similar to Natsukashi, also in Japanese. It's hard to translate, and so Natsukashi can be a translation, but also some people talk about which is, um, it's more sad, it's more negative, so those two words are related, and when I talk to japanese people and I tell them that we have a word that is a mixture of Natsukashi and Setsunai, they think those concepts they shouldn't mix together. So it's a bit complicated, right.
Speaker 1:That's fascinating and it really indicates how the different cultures end up with these different words that we can relate to, but maybe not fully. Maybe it takes a while for us to understand and perhaps, I mean I believe, you really need to live in Japan for extended period of time to really understand some of these daily expressions or words. So I'm sure that's the case with something like Portuguese. But I guess what's come to mind is why did you choose to compare Ikigai and Sadaji specifically for this study? Because I guess you could have compared Natsukashi with Sadaji, for example.
Speaker 2:I guess it probably relates to the embodied experience of both the words. The reason is more professional than personal, so I had these couple of meetings with Jamila. So Jamila is also a native Portuguese speaker and her research is about Ikigai and embodiment. I'm pretty sure she does other kinds of research, but one of her projects is about ikigai and embodiment. I'm pretty sure she does other kinds of research, but one of her projects is about this.
Speaker 2:In my case, I focus on those emotions that cannot be translated, and one of them is saudade. Then we were trying to reach some common ground to start a new project and we ended up choosing to compare Saudade and Ikigai, as those two emotions are culturally unique and that's something I do and they also have a strong component of embodiment. So the way that people feel them is unique in the sense that once you feel your Ikigai, you know what you have to do in your life. Then you just know and it's the body telling you that's what you should do. And saudade also, when you think about someone and you feel like you're about to cry or any of the other descriptions from poetry or music, then you know what you're feeling is saudade. That person, that moment was important to you. It's basically a mixture. I didn't know much about embodiment before working on this project and I think jamila never thought that much about a key guy as a something specific to japan and hard to translate and uh, so it was a professional reason nice oh good reason.
Speaker 1:I find both very interesting and um, and probably that's why I do this kind of work right yeah, I mean, it's just occurred to me that saudade could be considered like an ikigai emotion, because it sounds like it stems from something meaningful in your life. You know my example of losing someone who was important to me and, yeah, obviously I'm not sad all the time when I think of her. Most of the time I have these happy memories and it's more like this tinge of sadness that I can't, and just the memory of her and that emotion makes me feel, yeah, feel better or feel like life is good and I won't forget her. So, yeah, they're obviously relatable in that.
Speaker 1:Oh, this is something you feel and embody and that's yeah, it's fascinating how it's not just emotional, it's embodied and you can who. It's not just emotional, it's embodied and who knows how you feel it? You feel it. Maybe you breathe slowly or you tingle or you do start to cry, so, yeah. So, moving on, you write that the self and culture grounded in embodiment. Would you like to expand on that?
Speaker 2:Culture and self-grounded embodiment. Yes, I think it's this idea that in, let's say, traditional psychological research, we use a lot of questionnaires and we ask lots of questions, trying to get something specific that is more cognitive about, but those things are extremely hard to explain. So I can try to explain to you what is the feeling in my body of saudade or of my ikigai, and, um, it probably won't. It won't convey the message. Uh, completely right, you have to feel by yourself, saudade, and and that's a very personal, unique experience. So you described your loss.
Speaker 2:I can relate to that. I can think about the times when something similar happened to me, but I won't be feeling your experience. Right, I can't be. I can't borrow your body for a moment so I can know what you're feeling. Sure, and that's the idea that the body will tell you what to do and then you can make it conscious, but only to a certain extent. We cannot access everything consciously. I think it's more. That is the idea, and, um, we can expand this psychologically to think that many things that we do, many things that we feel, are just unconscious. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the main idea right here.
Speaker 1:Well, that all makes sense. I guess they're both personal Ikigai and Sandaji and subjective personal Ikigai and Sandaji and subjective, and your experience of the feeling, emotion and embodiment. It will be totally unique to you. I guess I mean a good example of maybe shared Ikigai is when people go and support their team, the football, and they kick the winning goal and everyone's screaming for joy and happy. You probably think, oh, everyone's pretty much experiencing the same feeling, but maybe someone who's young compared to someone who's old, and maybe this old person, finally, it's the first time their team's won the World Cup their experience would be different. Yeah, you know, because meaning and context. So, yeah, we can certainly share, I imagine, most of our emotions, but they are still unique to us, I guess the embodiment.
Speaker 2:You're right, but I agree with you and there is research showing that people do share emotions to some degree, and the common examples are just like you described. So you go to see a football match or some other sport or go to a concert and you and your friends and people you don't know they're all expectators you have more or less the same feeling. To some degree it is shared and it's the same thing All of you are feeling, but to some degree it's also very unique because it depends on your life. As I said, someone who's new goes to the match or someone who's young goes to the match is different to someone who's older and has seen many matches. So there is some degree of sharedness and some degree of uniqueness to the emotional experience. Definitely. It's hard to investigate, though I was going to say.
Speaker 1:Probably a better example is when you go and your team's losing and you see some people in this uncontrollable rage and they're swearing and screaming and making it, you know, quite unpleasant for people around, and then your friend supports the same team and they're just a little bit frustrated or disappointed, and so, yeah, you can really see the embodied experience, with these angry people pulling their hair out, or you know about to hit something.
Speaker 2:Definitely yes.
Speaker 1:So so yeah, it's kind of funny. There's a, an event, the team loses, there's this emotion and then people embody it, you know, extremely or very differently yes, definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2:It's very, quite different, quite different, and also not only the embod but the behaviors that will come after. So, when we study emotions, one of the ways of understanding emotions is that an emotion is a feeling that prepares you to engage in some kind of behavior. So if you're happy, you're going to celebrate. If you're sad, you're going to cry. But also it will influence how you connect to other people, how you interact with other people, right? So if you I'm sorry to use you as an example, but you shared your loss and you want to talk to your brother, you can either be sad together and grieve and just, I don't know, hug each other, et cetera, etc. Or, based on the same experience, you can, uh, be nostalgic and, okay, let's look at, uh at photos together, sure, and we live again those moments from the past.
Speaker 2:So that birthday party or or something, some other events, and, based on theory, on psychological theory, the idea is that the emotion you had before interacting with your brother would guide your behavior. So if you're going to celebrate together or if you're going to be sad together, that would be the idea. But then, going back to the football match, this could change drastically. So people can be sad together and just go home and then go to work the next day, or they can destroy everything and be violent. Yes, you never know, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, sports, certainly a passion for many people and perhaps a source of Ikigai.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:And you touch on sources and triggers and characteristics of both Ikigai and Baji. So do you want to touch on? I think my audience would have a pretty good idea of Ikigai. It's just the family, friends, work, hobbies, community social interaction, nature. What about Sadaji? What are considered sources and triggers?
Speaker 2:Based on our research and my experience as well, I would say it's when you feel lonely for some reason or when the experiences you have now do not satisfy you completely. Then you're eating something. You go to this new restaurant you never tried before and you go there. You have some expectations, but then the food is not so great and then you miss, uh, the food that your mother used to make back home, or that small restaurant that had very nice food that he used to go. So it can be like this. But also when you just miss your family or friends or partner, etc. So it can derive from dissatisfaction or just loneliness. I would say it's when you miss something, when you feel incomplete for some reason, and it can be minor or it can be very big. It can be a loss of a person, but it can also be after lunch you used to have a small cup of coffee and you cannot have it anymore, so you miss it. So those would be some triggers of saudade.
Speaker 1:It seems very much contextual. So both food could be a source of ikigai and sadaji. And obviously the experience. If you go to a restaurant and, oh, this food is just like how my mother or grandmother made it, you'd probably go back to that restaurant. And then, as you said, if you go and you have this expectation and then it's nothing like your mother's or it's disappointing I guess it's almost sort of anti-Ikigai. It's like, oh, I won't come back and I'm disappointed, but because of that I miss his home, I miss my mother's cooking. So it seems like Sardarji is more of a trigger and Ikigai is more of a source, because I've never considered triggers, I've never seen any papers where they use the word trigger. For Ikigai they usually say object or source, but it sounds like Sadaji is more. It's a trigger that sets this emotion, this sadness, this longing.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I never thought about these two words in particular source versus trigger. But I totally agree with you. Yeah, saudade is more. It's very contextual, as you mentioned. So, because something happens, then I feel saudade, but it's not something that I will be consciously looking for, if that makes sense. So, ikigai, I have my ikigai and it motivates me to do things and every time I feel demotivated I might go back to the source While saudade. I'm not looking forward to feeling saudade in that sense, but if I feel saudade, then let's say I feel saudade about my hometown or my friends from when I was a teenager. Then I might listen to music from that time, from when I was a teenager. Then I might listen to music from that time. I see, but it's still a trigger. I'll be in that saudade mood and I'll be just enjoying or savoring the mood. Well, Ikigai works in a different way. I have the feeling that's a very personal feeling that saudade will push you backwards in time, while ikigai push you forward in time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's what Mihiko Kamiya basically says. It's this feeling that your life is moving forward, and you know, memories can be a source of ikigai, but generally it is about life satisfaction and having this bright future. So Ikigai is kind of proactive, like it's. You know what's meaningful, what's valuable, what do I enjoy, what gives me life, and then you kind of proactively pursue it. It sounds like Sadaji is more passive, like something triggers this emotion and this longingness or sadness, and maybe you kind of live in that emotion for a few minutes and it might change your behavior. And then, as you said, you might go and listen to some of your favorite music from the 70s or 90s or whatever. Yeah, so they're relatable, but quite different, quite different, yeah.
Speaker 2:I wonder if they can overlap, if you can feel Sardaji about when you were a young adult, a teenager full of dreams, and you start thinking about this, or I did so many things that and during that time, and uh, and I want to go back to that, yeah, and then that can become your ikigai.
Speaker 1:but I don't know if people actually feel that way yeah, I think, if we're talking about memories and nostalgia, I guess it would be mostly framed as I'm glad I had those times or they were great times, but I'm sure they would come with this feeling oh, I wish I could go back, and maybe it's not so much regretful, it's just this desire to go back. But maybe Sadaji has that element of a little bit tinged with regret or more, you know, sadness.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't say regret is related to Sadaji. It's just wanting to go back, but not necessarily doing go back to do things differently, it's just to live that moment again. Yeah. So you won the prize a couple of years ago and you want to go back to that moment of receiving the prize and have this sensation again. Yeah.
Speaker 2:This euphoria or et cetera, but I would say like, so that's just more about also I don't know how to put it in a good way but when you feel troubled and if you're disconnected to the world, to reconnect to people and to the world and to reinterpret what happened to you and what happened in life and then connect to the moment.
Speaker 2:But it's always looking to the past, sure, or to an impossibility in the present. So you can feel saudade towards someone who is not here anymore, but you can also feel saudade, I don't know. I go to work and I feel saudade towards my, my wife and daughter, right, so I I wanted to, I want to be with them, but I also have to work, so I will have to wait and this would help me interpret this moment, this moment, my daily life. So there are things I need to do. I can't be with them the whole time. They also need their time alone or doing some other activities. But I would say that one of the key differences is looking to the past and looking to the future, but what would be common is connecting to the present both emotions.
Speaker 1:I've got one thought that came to mind. Imagine you're with a group of friends and this has probably happened to both of us where you're all going on a holiday and then for some reason you cannot go and all your mates go off. Or even just the idea you know your mates are going off on the weekend and then on the weekend they do go and you're missing out. Would that create saudade?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. I wouldn't describe it as saudade. I wouldn't use these words.
Speaker 1:Oh really, Even if you were sad or disappointed, you'd use something else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or maybe I would else. Yeah, or maybe I would. That's, that's a very I'm trying to think about times in the past when this happens. I would say that would feel saudade of uh, of the times that when my mates were here not on a trip, and we'll be hanging out and doing something here, but not that, not that I'm missing out or I'm disappointed. That would be slightly different, different, okay.
Speaker 1:So there is, yeah, I mean I used to get grounded a lot and my friends would go off and see like the latest you know Arnold Schwarzenegger movie or something.
Speaker 2:And I understand the feeling, but I wouldn't use saudade for this one, uh, although we have an expression uh that some, some people like to use it, that is, uh, I have saudades of something I never lived yeah that is uh.
Speaker 2:It's very controversial because usually when we say saudade is something, some experience I had I want to have again, but it's uh, for some reason at this moment is not possible, but then in that case I think the word japanese words, akogare would be more appropriate. So it's something. I wish I had this experience in the past. So I don't know, I I'm 38 right now and I wish I had the experience of living in many countries in the past. It's uh, I only lived in in two countries, so I wish I I don't know, I lived in Argentina, spain, australia, but I didn't. And then when I keep thinking about these experiences that I didn't have, uh, that I haven't had and I wish I had, then that's when I can use this uh, this expression of I have soldiers, of something I never, I've never lived.
Speaker 1:I see Makes sense, but there's no sense of regret.
Speaker 2:No sense A little bit.
Speaker 1:A little bit.
Speaker 2:In that a little bit yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so it's quite complicated, yeah, so I'm beginning to understand how complicated it is. So let's move on to the embodied experience. Okay.
Speaker 1:I think when we talk about ikigai, as I said before, you're like vibration. Or you've got a table in your paper and it's listing. You'd feel ikigai in the chest or this idea of heart, kokoro maybe in the belly and maybe all over the body, and these feelings of butterflies, calmness, peace, stimulation and yeah, I can understand all those and I think I often feel those with Ikigai. But what about Sadaji? What's the body parts and what's the embodied experience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's interesting because the body parts are similar. It's usually the chest, the heart, somewhere here, but the feeling is very different In saudade. It's usually emptiness or some kind of pain here, and then, when it comes to the face, it's a feeling that you're about to cry, like watering eyes. So those are the feelings that are commonly described, and sometimes some people describe other body parts. So, to give an example, let's say I used to play football and then when I feel saudades of playing football when I was very young, it's as if I could feel my legs running and kicking the ball right. So this would be the embodiment of the body, feeling or expression of this emotion. But on that paper I think we spoke a lot or more about the chest and the heart, because it's common. I mean comparing Ikigai and Saudade. These two emotions. You have the same place, but very different. One is a vibration and it's a feeling as if your chest is full of energy and bursting energy that it can use to fulfill your goals, while in Saudade it's empty. You're missing something.
Speaker 1:It definitely makes sense. It's related to the chest and stomach or belly. When I think of Japanese and these idioms of like haragatatsu, like I'm angry and your stomach feels like it's kind of standing, yeah.
Speaker 1:Or munegaipai, I think, is an expression. I'm not sure what that means. Is it emotional or I'm full of emotion? So yeah, in Japan, the Japanese language has all these interesting body part idioms that convey emotion or all the embodiments. Yeah, but we do feel. We often feel these things in our chest, our belly. So it is, we're strange animals, we feel these things.
Speaker 2:What I find interesting is that the language and the culture influence us to feel that way that's fascinating right and uh. They didn't bring examples, but I read about some different cultures and, depending on the culture, the where you feel a specific emotion will be different. So in english we talk a lot about the guts. Regarding courage, yes.
Speaker 2:The guy has guts and you kind of feel somewhere around here when you're about to do something bold, right yeah. And then in I guess, the Japanese people might when they're upset, they might feel that their stomach is standing up.
Speaker 2:But we definitely feel something here strange going on, some tension and this part of the body when we are upset and it's uh, well then, according to to what the kind of research we do, this is basically the body telling us that something is important, importance going on and that we need to take some action. Calm down, probably, or calm down, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:Fight or flight.
Speaker 2:Fight or flight, still take some action. Right, and that's partially related to this. But you know symptoms of mental illnesses. They are different according to countries, and in China and Korea people feel depression, they have pain in some parts of the body, and people from other countries don't feel those symptoms. Wow, when they have the same disorder, the same mental illness. One thing I want to maybe one day do in the future related to Japan is this katakuri, oh yeah, so stiff shoulder that many Japanese people complain about it. If you live in Japan long enough, you start to feel it.
Speaker 1:Societal expectation yeah right.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's related to anxiety, but it's very cultural, because I haven't felt this in my life before coming to Japan.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, I remember learning that and hearing Japanese say that a lot. It's kind of cool, but why do they say it so often? We don't say my shoulders are like frozen. Is that what it is? Koro? Yeah, my katakori, my shoulders are stiff. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know. But so there's this thing. Those things are specific to some cultures and in the case of Ikigai and I guess I'll add as well, the feeling might exist in other cultures, because I heard people talking about this like when I found what I wanted to do in life, I felt something in my chest, in my heart, my heart was pumping quicker. That's when I decided I should become a musician or something like this. And in the case of Saudade, you see in art also in many countries, a few empty insides because they miss some family member, some past lover. So the feeling is there and the embodied experience is there. The words might be missing, for sure. So it's an interesting puzzle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we might say playing guitar makes me feel alive. Yeah, when I hold my kids it's like I'm in heaven. Yeah, when, I hold my kids.
Speaker 1:It's like I'm in heaven and yeah, but we I guess yeah many ways to describe the feeling. We don't have one word to describe. I guess these common emotions related to the embodiment of the experience. But yeah, the cultural aspect is interesting in how you mentioned. Almost the culture defines the embodied experience and the emotion. And you're right, studying culturally specific emotions is important to understand not only the culture that originated it, but also to understand humans living in other countries and yeah, I would say this is something I discovered by living in Japan and I'm sure you have. You understand Japanese from their culture and you understand the differences and why these I guess why these words originate from their culture. So you are originally from Brazil and you speak English and you live in Japan and speak Japanese. So what have been your personal experiences of embodiment of culturally specific emotions in cultures other than your own? So, obviously, japan, did you live in an English-speaking country?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:So just Japan and Brazil.
Speaker 2:Only Brazil and Japan, and sometimes I start to understand what people are feeling. But I also think I'm still a beginner. I sometimes I can feel ikigai, or sometimes I can use words such as natsukashi, their concepts. They're just different to to the concepts I grew up speaking or that I understood from an early age, so I can use them. I can understand when people use those words and I'm starting to feel those emotions in a similar way, but I have the impression I cannot understand them completely.
Speaker 1:It might take another 12 years maybe, I don't know, I'd agree Because I might. I mean, if I use Natsukashi, it's more cognitive, it's like, oh, this is the right word to use in this situation, but I'm but am I really feeling nostalgia that deeply? Probably not. And yeah, you're right. Yeah, that's why I said before you need to live in the country. I think I had this experience when I thought, ah, I finally understand Okagisamade, and I had this kind of moment, ah, I finally get it. But I mean, I'm not sure if I did, but yeah, you have those moments where you feel, ah, because Japanese also have all those kimari monka, all those said expressions, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:First it's like you struggle because you're just saying the same thing over and over again. And you I even got to a point I thought, oh, it's kind of meaningless, you're just saying the same thing over again. And I even got to a point where I thought, oh, it's kind of meaningless, you're just saying the same thing. And then it kind of flipped the other way. It's like oh, I'm getting to really understand and feel these words. So it is a journey that I guess you not only cognitively process, you feel it and then maybe you eventually embody the word, I guess, or the experience of the word.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hope so. A few things I think I have embodied or learned in a more implicit way. So, to give another example, the ways to use sumimasen and arigato gozaimasu, they're so complicated that I think it's not possible. Maybe it is possible for someone who's very clever to learn consciously, but most people know how to use these words unconsciously. Yeah, because sometimes I mean in times when in English you would say thank you, sometimes Japanese people would not say arigato, they would say sumimasen. Yeah.
Speaker 2:The thank you is included, but it's more important to apologize for creating trouble. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And needing the help of the other person. But it's hard to do this consciously. You just do it subconsciously and you're like, okay, now I should say this one, now I should say that one. But it's just hard and it's it's related to the other other words. Another word that I have a hard time using in japanese is hasamu. Like to go in between, like caesars. They are hasami. Like they go between, like paper or something else. Japanese people use this a lot when they want to include something new in a conversation or or somewhere else. But it's such a foreign concept to me that even though I understand the words I technically I know how to use it I just never use it.
Speaker 1:No, I wouldn't. I understand the meaning of the word and you've reminded me of it, but yeah, I can't imagine using it in a conversation. I'm probably going to think are you talking about a sandwich, or something?
Speaker 2:Yeah right, when Japanese people speak English, sometimes I see that they want to use this word and they just say, oh, we're going to sandwich two concepts and another one in between. I'm like okay.
Speaker 1:But the word sumimasen, yeah, that was interesting for me to learn too, because I quickly thought, wow, sometimes they use it to say excuse me, I need your attention, to apologize or to say thank you.
Speaker 1:And then I had a podcast with an author, scott Huss on this, who talked about uke ideru and acceptance, and in his book he touches on sumimasen and he gave me this perspective.
Speaker 1:It was more like, in all three situations you're really saying I'm going to disturb you now, or I'm going to break the harmony, or I'm going to break the flow by either calling out sumimasen, as in excuse me, or sumimasen as you know sorry, I'm kind of inconveniencing you, or maybe I have. And then even the sumimasen for arigato means there is this hint of I've disturbed you or I've troubled you in some way, and I thought, wow, that's really helpful, because I'd never really thought about it like that. I just thought, oh, this is such a cool word, you can use it in these three contexts and it is different to arigato. But arigato seems, yeah, more intentional when it's all positive. Arigato seems, yeah, more intentional when it's all positive, yeah. So sometimes even other foreigners can give you this context where you think, ah, I never thought it like that. So yeah, but it's sort of the journey of learning Japanese. It never ends.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, it never ends, and I think there will be many other words that I can discuss in that sense.
Speaker 1:Acceptance is a strong theme too in Japan, and I remember having even just Japanese friends in Melbourne and I'd often hear the expression shogunai and I was thinking, oh, that would translate, it can't be helped. But we don't really say that. And I would often be asked how do you say shogunai in English? And I'm thinking, well, we probably say like, what a pity. Like we're going on a picnic and it starts to rain, we can't go. Oh okay, what a pity, we'll do something else, yeah. And then uke ireru is that's a really hard one to fully grasp. That seems like full acceptance or something I don't know.
Speaker 2:In cultural, psychological research, people talk a lot about agency and how people believe they have more or less agency. So in Japan and in east asia in general, it is um what experiments would have shown that people believe they have less agency in the sense that they cannot modify the environment, so they have to adapt to the environment, and they would use all the energy to adapt to the environment and then it would make sense that they would use more shogunate like there's nothing I can do about it. We have to adapt to this situation, while in other countries or the cultures, people wouldn't use a similar expression that often and the meaning behind this would be that they can do something about it. Okay, it's raining where we want to have a picnic. We will go to restaurants instead or go to somewhere.
Speaker 2:Do like an indoor picnic, if that's possible or something else like we'll figure out a way in practice. I think both think both groups, let's say the Australian group and the Japanese group, will find a way to still meet their friends and eat food together. But the way they would interpret it would be different.
Speaker 1:Even when I think about acceptance, it's so infused in Japanese culture. I don't think it's considered like a weakness as it sometimes is in Western culture. I don't think it's considered like a weakness as it sometimes is in Western culture and even Japanese see it as. This is like the true nature of things Bad things happen and we can't really change, as you said, can't really change the environment. I mean, the West is like no, I'm not accepting this and we're going to do something about it.
Speaker 2:There's one interesting experiment that was done. I think it was done in China actually in China and in the US, so there are Starbucks cafes everywhere. They would mess up the chairs on the corridor and they would look at how people would go through the corridor with all those chairs, like out of place. In the us people would be more likely to put the chairs back. So they would modify, they would use their agency on the environment to create a path, while in china people would just adapt and avoid the chairs, like going from one side to the other. Of course, this was not always the case, so you would see Americans avoiding the chairs and Chinese people putting the chairs back. But I think it's a very clever way that they investigated this thing about agency. In the end, everybody could pass through the corridor and go to the other place, but the way they perceived it was different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I find it very interesting.
Speaker 1:It is interesting Even behavior around using public services, like getting on and off trains. There is this rigid kind of rules. How to you know you create a path so people can get off the train in japan, which is fantastic, and I can't tell you how many times I catch a train in melbourne and you're trying to exit the door and people are standing right in front of you.
Speaker 2:Oh, Brazil's the same.
Speaker 1:They won't move and you bump shoulders or you have to sort of go on your side and yeah, when those moments happen, I sort of think I wish I was in Japan getting off this train. So yeah, culture certainly conditions behavior. And I mean I think in Japan, as you'd know, there is this idea of meiwa kukakinai-de, like don't cause trouble. So I guess that also creates this feeling that you have limited agency because you have to do what's right by society, whereas I guess in the west, in Australia, it's like, well, I don't care, I'm going to do my own thing, and if it upsets other people or you know, that's not my problem. It's kind of a selfish attitude, not always, but we just wouldn't extend our thinking or consideration as far as Japanese duo or I guess almost are forced to do.
Speaker 1:Even from a very young age my son attended the first year of school in Japan and I remember, you know, a parent saying to his beautiful daughter like mewakukakinaide ne Like. And I couldn't believe that he would say that as a parting greeting, like, and I'm just sort of telling him, son, I love him and have a good day, and I was really shocked. So that really was one of those cultural moments I was like wow, you're saying that to a four-year-old already and I was really upset about it. But I think it was more like be a good girl today, kind of yeah that's true, but it really shocked me.
Speaker 1:I thought, wow, that's putting pressure on Like she hasn't done anything wrong. Why are you saying this? Putting pressure on like she hasn't done anything wrong? Why are you saying this? And yeah, it was. It was one of those moments it's like, wow, that's pretty harsh it is right and it's hard to.
Speaker 2:When we hear those things, it's hard to interpret them right, because we have our own cultural let's say cultural bias or our own way of viewing the world and expecting things and also of educating children, and it's really hard to understand the other's perspective. And even when we understand the words, it's hard to understand the ideas or the feeling behind it, as you just mentioned. So you understand consciously, but still there's something inside of you that's not very comfortable with that idea. For me it took a long time to understand or to start feeling okay with the gambate kudasai or gambate, the gambate com açaí or gambate, it sounds in Brazil. It sounds a bit offensive to say to tell someone to do their best, because it sounds as if they're not making the effort, yeah, putting in the effort. So you know you're not playing really well, let's say in a football match, and you think the players are not playing well. Then you say, oh, please, put in some effort.
Speaker 2:So it sounds offensive when you say that in Brazil, but in Japan is the most common thing you would say to someone who is trying to do something, and it took me a while to get used to that expression yeah, it almost seems like the only expression they use for encouragement or support. Yes.
Speaker 1:And even in my first year in Japan, I was a trainee chef and I remember this young Japanese man he might have been in his mid-20s, late-20s, so I was younger than him at the time and he was asking me all these polite, you know, polite, friendly questions where you're from and how you're enjoying Japan. And at the end he said, oh, you know, thank you, and like kambate kudasai. And I thought he doesn't mean do your best, it's more like I'm supporting you, I wish you well, like in Japan. But it took me a while to kind of realize that. So yeah, the literal meaning doesn't always translate to the literal meaning. It often translates to I'm supporting you or I'm glad we met and I wish you well. So that's, it's good when you kind of realize that.
Speaker 2:I find it fascinating because I think Japanese people do this more than foreigners and, for example, when we watch a film here, we would be watching with English voices and Japanese subtitles and they don't match. The words wouldn't match all the time, but the feeling, or what the, what the characters want to say Do match. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It does make sense. So remember going to movies and thinking what. They've got the translation wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, it's not what they said, and then when you think about and thinking what They've got the translation wrong, yeah, right, it's not what they said. And then when you think about okay, so what would you say in that situation, that context in Japanese, and okay, it would be something similar, then it makes sense this kind of translation, yeah, would be interesting. I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, we've talked about agency and you encourage people to be an agent of their own change. So do you want to touch on that?
Speaker 2:It's more about being attuned to your body, to your emotions, especially when we well, our job is to do research and then write those papers, those articles, and they are a bit complicated sometimes. Many people put emphasis on what is called the higher levels of consciousness and what is conscious and what we think, we believe, is the best thing to do. But of course, this is important. We should think about things doing before engaging in some activity, we should think it throughout, but also we should consider the, the gut feeling, to use an english expression, so what our body is telling us. That's also important information.
Speaker 2:And when we make decisions so let's say you want to make a life decision like buy a car, buy a house, move to another country, and you start to consider everything in a very intellectual, in a very conscious way, precise, taking notes, etc. This is important. But also you have to pay attention to your body. Maybe you're afraid, maybe you're happy about it, and this should be taken into consideration when making decisions, when being active, when using your agency. I think that's more or less the idea we wanted to convey there and, of course, future research should consider this as well. We're trying to increase our influence and that's something that all academics try to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's a term, or maybe I won't get it fully correct, but it's like embodied intelligence, like your body's sending signals as to what feels right. Uh, yeah, that's, that's the idea.
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, nowadays we tend tend to think about evolution and um, how the body would work, how we as humans would work, I don't know 50 000 years ago and when humans were in a very different environment, very different situation than we are today. So today you are in Australia, I'm in Japan, we're talking online. This would not be possible even 20 years ago, let alone like thousands of years ago. But our bodies are basically the same as the bodies of our ancestors 50 years ago and they would decide things, they would go on with their lives relying way more on their emotions and their gut feelings than we are today. But our gut feelings, they tell us a lot about the environment, but our gut feelings, they tell us a lot about the environment.
Speaker 2:So, to give a classic example, when we see a big animal, like a lion or a bear, we are afraid and our body reacts to it, telling us this is very dangerous and you should be afraid and this is helpful to take action. Right're gonna hide, you're gonna run away, or, if you have the tools, you're gonna fight, and your body prepares you to do those things. Yeah, right now we're not very afraid, uh, consciously of big animals anymore, because they just don't live in the same environment. Uh, that we do. But there are other things that can make us afraid, and this is probably the body interpreting those signs and telling us that we should pay more attention to other things. So, yeah, I totally agree with you. It's kind of a body. What was the expression you used?
Speaker 1:Body, intelligence, embodied intelligence, yeah, yes, intelligence yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, definitely definitely.
Speaker 1:But what's fascinating is our imagination can trick us into, you know, like fearing possibility, and then we embody that fear and it's not even real yet. And it's not something outrageous like there might be a bear outside when I go for a walk. It's more like, oh, I might fail this test tomorrow, or I have an interview and I'm already sweaty hands and I'm not going to handle it. Well, and we seem to embody these. Have they embodied his experience of what's not even real more more intensely than what is real, which is crazy?
Speaker 2:it's basically anxiety, right, and and this could be, this could be problematic. There's another issue we have because we are a very anxious animal as human beings and we anticipate problems. So, yeah, we have, I have a test, uh, next week. So I start to worry now and, uh, I start to have all these body reactions and stress and this could damage the body. This does damage the body and that's the other side of the same coin and it can be very problematic.
Speaker 1:Well, good luck with that test.
Speaker 2:No, I was just an example. I was an example okay. My students have a test next week. I'm not I'm not anxious about it.
Speaker 1:They might be yeah, lucky you, yeah, I was thinking about your example of, like you know, moving to japan, and that's something I'm seriously considering doing.
Speaker 3:That's something I'm seriously considering doing because of my work now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I might. I mean, all logic says I should go back to Japan because of the business it's growing and I'm doing retreats and workshops and I've built this network and for my wife she has family there and my son's now in his early 20s, so he's ready to probably do his own thing. And it does feel right, like the embodied experience is like telling me oh yeah, like I feel relaxed and good and excited about this. But if it was seven years ago and the idea was, oh, you know, we have to go back and you know, just for the time being, maybe I'd have to teach English again, yeah, I'd probably be very anxious and tense and stressed and think, ah, Just shoulders.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't want to teach again. And so, yeah, our body really does react to our environment, what we anticipate. So we should be an agent of our own change, I guess. Definitely, yeah, our body really does react to our environment, what we anticipate. So we should be an agent of our own change, I guess.
Speaker 2:Definitely yeah, should take the body and the mind into consideration.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's end with, I guess, a personal question. You've lived in Japan for quite some time, you are married to a Japanese and you have a family, so let's touch on your ikigai First. Do you remember the first time you heard the word ikigai? Was it in a social context, or was it in a research context?
Speaker 2:I think it was more of an educational context, because I remember seeing ikigai when I was studying Japanese, before I came to Japan. So I studied for a year or so, two years, and then I would be going through textbooks and all these words. And so some words they make sense, they have direct translations, computer chair, mobile phone, etc. Very easy to understand. But then you go into those words that are not directly translatable and ikigai was one of those words that I had to stop for a moment, like reason to be alive. I think that could be a common. I don't remember the exact definition I saw, but I would have to go to the internet and like, look and read a little bit about it.
Speaker 2:In Japan I didn't hear once I came to Japan I haven't heard that often the words, but the last part of it, the guy. So yari-guy, hataraki-guy, etc. You see that a lot In research. We see it more often because we ask people what's your hataraki guy? Is this related to your hataraki guy, Et cetera. But yeah, and then I don't know when, it became just another word, another common word to me that I would use from time to time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, that was my experience, actually someone. My experience might be a little bit unique, because someone did ask me directly on Nikwa Chirikigai in Japanese who was Japanese, and I was like, oh, what's that? But then after that I don't really remember anyone using it. I've seen it a few times in documentaries, but yeah, I used to hear yadigai ga aru like every week. You know it was far more common. And then, even more recently, I heard someone on a Japanese podcast. Two Japanese guys were talking and one said like tsukudigai. And I thought oh okay, tsukudigai wow, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, once I got into the research, I found out oh, you can have, yeah, hataraki gai, asobi gai, manabi gai, oshi gai. And these are words Japanese would never use, but they're helpful for framing these ideas of, oh, what's worth learning, or who's worth teaching, or what's worth playing, I guess, or how should you spend your leisure time. And I've seen Asobi Gai just in print, but no one's ever said it to me, so it seems to be Yari Gai. I've never actually heard anyone say Hatarakigai. Have you heard it?
Speaker 2:or just seen it, hatarakigai. Yes, yes, my wife says that a lot.
Speaker 1:She's trying to tell you to work harder.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, yeah, maybe that's the message.
Speaker 1:Come on, working is good for you. It's good to do making for work.
Speaker 2:Working is good for you, yeah come on working is good for you, it's good to do working is good for you. Yeah, that's right, but um, and in one research project we use it a lot also we ask this question. I work on many projects and one project's about well-being at the workplace and it is related to having meaning. Meaning, what is the?
Speaker 2:I forgot the expression, but it's something like meaning to work meaningful work, or I've seen it translated as work motivation yes yeah so if there is a reason, if the kind of work you do is meaningful to you, then if you're happier, you're more productive, et cetera. There is a concept in psychology that is meaning in life. Yeah. And that I think is related to, or it's similar to, ikigai.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think in Japan, until the Ikigai 9 scale was developed which is what about 15 years ago they were using Western scales, like the meaning in life scale.
Speaker 1:And eventually, I guess a Japanese researcher or a couple of Japanese researchers said why are we using Western scales to measure our well-being? We should make our own. And then they came up with these scales, like the Ikigai 9 or the Ikigai Kan scale, and they're very similar but have some different. I think they have some different elements, like Yutori Kokoroni, yutori Garu I think that's one of the Ikigai 9 items and that's something again unique, like this idea of space or room, which we probably don't value that much in the Western world. Anyway, we could go on and on, but we probably should end, so I will end with this question, now that you've studied Ikigai. You live in Japan. What is your Ikigai?
Speaker 2:What is my Ikigai? I don't know. It's hard to answer a question just on a personal level, because work is also part of our lives and our lives are related to other people. One thing I've been thinking about that kind of derives from my research is that I've become more similar, in that sense, to Japanese people uh, similar in that sense to japanese people. So right now, my ikigai, I would say, is just to live my life in a stable, peaceful, calm way. So it's just like going to work. I like going to work. I like spending time with family, I like going on the trip from time to time, spending time with friends. So it's not very intense or exciting as it used to be.
Speaker 2:When I was younger, I wanted to go places, I wanted to do things and having have new experiences. Now it's more about enjoying the same experiences over and over and again, and they are slightly different, as, uh, when you think about your favorite uh dish, and it's the same, but it's not the same, right? So the, the food you ate yesterday, even if you eat the same today, it's not exactly the same and that's that's what you enjoy. So today is a little bit more spicy, a little bit more salty or sweet than it was yesterday. So if I had to talk about my Ikigai, it's just going on and enjoying those moments in life right now and I think it's different to my Ikigai 12 years ago, when I want to go to this new country and learn the language, learn the culture and explore everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. I mean, your answer is kind of like a very typical Japanese answer.
Speaker 2:Yeah right.
Speaker 1:Daily living. And I did find some research where another researcher created like a four-factor scale on Ikigai and he noted that for young I mean, you're still young so for young it tends to be passion, this passion for life, and that would relate to forward thinking and ambition. And then for the elderly it was more this internal calm experience, and I guess with age there's limitation with what we can do. But it's also tied to your current life. Yeah, You're married, you've got kids. You can't just run off to a new country, even if you wanted to. No, so maybe it is conditioned by your social context and your familial context. If you're, I don't know if you were still single, who knows, you might be skiing in Niseko at the moment or something.
Speaker 2:So that's true. That's true. I wonder if it's related to your past experiences, because I was single for a while and I was traveling and just going to places and meeting people. And after you settle down then your mindset changes. But I wonder the degree of influence I wonder about the influence of your past experiences will have on those choices and I don't have an answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess one significant discovery for me was the idea of role Like role becomes a source of ikigai.
Speaker 1:So, father, researcher, husband. You know, if you quickly get married and have kids, that's like two new roles and you're committing much of your life to those roles and hopefully they're the sources of Ikigai. Maybe for some people they find out oh, what have I done? I'm now, I have enough freedom, I've got to work hard. So, yeah, there's certainly a context to Ikigai in what your sources are, because if you're single and young, you have this incredible freedom, I guess time freedom and and when you're married, then you have a different type of freedom. I guess, uh, and you're committing yourself to roles and then, now that my son's old enough to be like a shakaijin, like a independent and hopefully soon independent, I've kind of probably got some freedom back and I think, well, okay, I want to work on stuff. I want to do Not that he stopped me, but yeah, I want to really work on stuff and that might include going back to Japan. So I guess context and our age and where we're at really also determines what can be our Ikigai.
Speaker 2:So it takes 20 years to get freedom back? Yeah, so Is that what he's saying? Yeah, I think. I think roles, roles are important. What I just wonder is um about past experiences, because, uh, the ikigai described as he said it's probably related to my current roles are very similar to people I know who didn't have this age of exploration when they were young adults. So many cultures people just get married after, after high school. They finish high school, they're like 18 or 20, they marry someone and then they go direct to the same stage that I am right now almost 40. So I wonder if my past experiences would have an influence on my current state or not. Probably, yes, but it's also hard to measure.
Speaker 1:There's actually a theory on that by one of my podcast guests called Shintaro Kono, and he's based in Canada and he did a study called Hokosei. So life directionality and he believes your past life and your perception of the future is very much tied to your present experience, and even bad experiences can eventually turn into have a positive effect on your life. And so in some way, yeah, your past Ikigai sources or your past experiences that maybe you considered Ikigai, still have an impact on you and have shaped you to where you are now. And he calls that life legacy, with this different meaning. It's not. It's not a legacy you leave behind, it's the legacy you've had.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I mean I related that to the day I walked out of a job. I was miserable, I was getting bullied, and one day I got another manager and said I'm leaving. Now I'm done and I walked out and it's very distressing and you know I was quite depressed, but that definitely changed my life and has impacted my life to what I'm doing now. So I can yeah, you can definitely go back and think with this kind of open mind what experiences have shaped my life, or what Ikigai experiences have shaped my life, or what bad experiences have kind of led me to a path of new Ikigai in my life, so it is also quite reflective Ikigai too. You can reflect on what's been good or what challenges have helped you grow, and then perhaps that helps you make better decisions for the future. Yeah, so there's so much research behind this word.
Speaker 2:It's mind-blowing, very interesting. Yeah, it sounds also related to therapy and I wonder if the Japanese kinds of therapy, if they have something related to Ikigai, like Morita therapy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nikan Morita therapy, a Haya Therapy also? I'll have to look that one up, but I did have a recent podcast on this theme. It was quite interesting because, yeah, exploring the intersection of behavioral activation and ikigai. So this was episode 91. And they offered an example where they had a Japanese person living in Europe I think in Germany and that person was getting therapy and nothing was really resonating in the sessions. And then one day the therapist mentioned Ikigai and it gave this person a new framework that they were familiar with to think about.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, I'm kind of stressed or unhappy or depressed, and it gave this person a new framework that they were familiar with Just thinking about, oh okay, I'm kind of stressed or unhappy or depressed, but oh, I can think about what my ikigai is, and it seemed to. Really I don't know how well it helped the person, but it definitely had some positive impact on framing, I guess, using the word ikigai in therapy. So I'm sure it's going to be an area of research as well. Yeah Well, igor, we've probably gone an hour and 40 minutes, but it feels like we're going to be scattered for half an hour.
Speaker 2:That's true.
Speaker 1:So thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Definitely we'll catch up in person.
Speaker 2:Definitely yes.
Speaker 1:So I will stop the podcast and maybe we'll have a little chat. Okay, thank you.