The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Sailing Into Life with Purpose: Navigating Your True Calling with Martin Krafft
Where does life lead us?
Life is a journey, and with the right guidance, it can steer us toward our true calling.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Martin Krafft about his transition from a life at sea to professional training and coaching.
Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom. My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Martin Kraft. A master mariner by training and a seasoned senior executive, martin brings over two decades of experience in building cohesive, high-performing teams across three continents, and also through diverse cultures At one of France's leading business schools, where he teaches the elective leadership, career values and purpose. Together with his students, he explores profound questions about what constitutes a life worth living, and he is an accredited associate certified coach by the International Coaching Federation, icf. Welcome to the podcast, martin.
Speaker 2:Well, Nick thanks a lot for having me, and of course, it's a bit of a change. We've been knowing each other for some time through the program, but I'm super happy to meet you on this format and in this context.
Speaker 1:So am I. I was looking forward to this, and this will be a different episode. I think it's going to be more casual, more open, and we always have these wonderful discussions, so I'm sure we'll have a wonderful discussion on this episode. So let's start with a bit of background. Would you like to share some of your past? I know it's been quite a journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with pleasure. So I was born and raised in Germany into fairly modest family circumstances and if I today look at my 13-year-old son, I recognize this kind of laissez-faire of the youth, right? It's almost like that youthful me which is playful and joyful and doesn't care about a lot of things, and that changed at the age of 14 in my case. You know, is playful and joyful and doesn't care about a lot of things, right? And that changed at the age of 14 in my case. That's what I normally refer to as my first awakening. For various circumstances, I ended up at a British sailing school and that really profoundly changed my life. There I really found my calling.
Speaker 2:So from that day onwards, from 14 years old onwards, I didn't want to become an astronaut or rocket scientist or something. I wanted to become a ship's captain. And so I went to sea at the age of 19. I sailed around the globe on container ships, tankers and square riggers, and then I obtained my Master Mariner's license and that sort of kicked off then a whole sequence of events and it suddenly triggered my curiosity because I'd learned how to steer ships.
Speaker 2:But then I didn't understand why were these ships going from where they came from to where they went, and so only one way to figure it out I thought that's starting business. In starting business, I realized okay, now I understand why nations trade, how nations trade, how companies operate, and I've understood a little bit about the legal context in which they operate, but I didn't fully understand it. So one way to figure it out is to study law, which I did. So with all that, my career really took off beyond my wildest dreams and it was a journey, journey which was just amazing, and 10 years ago I moved to Montreal, quebec, canada, together with my family, and I really found my happy place here, despite the freezing cold outside these days Minus 20 degrees today.
Speaker 1:That is cold. Well, there you go, Thank you. So that's yeah, that's quite a journey Several countries and obviously a lot of time spent on ships. So I'm curious, what is a master mariner?
Speaker 2:a master mariner essentially has a driver's license for ships, right? So we are navigating officers in the merchant navy, so a master mariner is somebody who's responsible to drive a ship and to do he's responsible for the ship, its crew and the cargo to safely and sustainable transport goods from a to b and connect continents in peaceful trade.
Speaker 1:Essentially, there you go and you do have a love for sailing and you are going through a transition which I've learned about for the past year or so. So, yes, you've gone through this career change, among other things, and that's what brought us together. You took my Higai Coach certification, so essentially you told me you were retiring, but really you were transitioning. So what has that transition been?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting how words make meaning, right. So, in my case, when I turned 50, which was November last year I transitioned into what I would call the new chapter of my life, right, the current chapter. And that in itself is a journey which had its roots at a very unlikely place, and that is Harvard Business School. As I had sort of touched on already until 2020, I enjoyed this corporate career with amazing opportunities both for my personal and professional growth and finally, after 16 years of wanting to go, I was finally able to participate in a Harvard Business School program which is called a general management program. The general management program at Harvard Business School is supposed to transform subject matter experts into general managers, so it's really a transformative transition with a goal to be leaders, to be CEOs and the like.
Speaker 2:But then the most amazing thing happened during my stint there. I realized that, instead of continuously pursuing higher, faster, more, I sort of calmed down and I really I started arriving at myself. And then, of course because it was 2020, right. So we're talking about the middle of the COVID pandemic, with all the uncertainty and all the opportunities that were there and that really triggered for me a journey of humbling, of easing up, relaxing and letting go and, frankly speaking, after all these amazing opportunities in my life, I really had this desire, still have this desire of wanting to give back to society and with that I really came up with the concept of this transition, which is sort of on a foundation, and that foundation are my loved ones, and on that foundation of my loved ones rest three pillars, and these three pillars are coaching, teaching and sailing. So essentially, in Ikigai lingo we could talk about my azubigai sources, those which make my life worth living, and that is what I've put into practice.
Speaker 1:At the end of last year, Well, I would venture to say there might even be a fourth pillar, which is learning. You seem to be a student of life and I think you will be, for life, always eager to learn and grow, and I also think you love applying what you learn, which I've seen. So, yeah, why do you have this insatiable appetite to learn more, when you could just think, hey, I've done it, I'm retiring young, I could just relax and, uh, do nothing, or just sail the seas and and have no desire to continue learning. But you do.
Speaker 2:Well, nick, you don't go easy with your questions, do you? I mean, this is something I've been thinking about that really deep and long and I came up with two whys why I am a lifelong learner. So the first one is rooted in family. That is sort of my grandfather and my mother and their heritage. They both had amazing talents in their lives but they didn't have the opportunity to live them. So my grandfather, when he was 14 years old, he was sent down into a coal mine and my mother, at 14 years old, was told you know, you don't need to go further to school, even though you want to, because you're just a girl, you're a woman, you'll get married and that's it, that's your life, end of the story. So that's it, that's your life, end of the story.
Speaker 2:So that's really one source of my whys. The other source is the parable of the talents in the Bible. You know, the responsible use of one's abilities, resources and gifts. And look, by unbelievable luck and coincidence, I was born at a time and in a location where I really perceived the unlimited opportunities, and maybe you remember we had this one session in our Ikigai group where I had this Eureka moment when I realized that I don't only have the opportunity to engage my talent, but that I've really I've got this perceived obligation to make best use of my talents and not to talk with the Bible, not just to bury them in the ground as in the parable. So these, really, these are my two whys and I feel to that degree that I'm doing justice to myself and I'm doing justice to my ancestors.
Speaker 1:I love it. Yeah, I really enjoyed our cohort with Veronica and the conversations we had and, yeah, every time we talk you seem to reveal something or uncover something that really fascinates me. So you're moving on to one of these pillars. You mentioned coaching. You are an experienced coach. How would you define coaching and what is your role as a coach?
Speaker 2:So I guess the ICF, where I'm accredited, would want me to say that coaching is about something like giving the client agency and autonomy to think carefully and take actions based on reflection. Okay, that's what they would want me to say. My amazing teacher and master coach, jim Gavin, said once coaching is what coaches do and honestly, I think both those definitions hold truth. I mean, the first one has all the buzzwords, right, but most importantly, it results in action, and I think that's what coaching is about. It is to affect change, which changes life, which changes outcome. But then also, jim Gavin's definition of coaching is what coaches do affords this flexibility and the space for coach and coachee to show up in their humanity, in their individuality, as responsible selves.
Speaker 2:For me, as far as I'm concerned, as a coach, how do I see my role? Well, I like this metaphor of walking a bit of the way together. Right, that in coaching there's this walking between coach and coachee. But as a coach, I'm not carrying my coachee's burden and I'm not taking the decisions for them. Right, I'm not there to comfort them. I'm there with them, but as I found at some stage by Rumi, the 13th century poet and scholar. He said it's your road, and yours alone. Others may walk it with you, but no one can walk it for you, and I think that is the essence of coaching and that is my current definition of my role as a coach.
Speaker 1:Love it, love it. I think I want to get some coaching from you now.
Speaker 2:And that's the beauty of it, right, nick? That we always we show up as students and teachers at the same time. And this traditional sort of differentiation into roles I think it doesn't hold true for me anymore. I learned so much from my kids, I learned so much from my elders. We've got all these opportunities and we can be both at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that idea. It's a collaborative, shared experience, and sometimes you don't even need to find the answers, you just explore all these other opportunities or possibilities, and I think that's very much aligned to Ikigai and also what we experienced in our cohort, which we'll touch on later. But with your work also comes leadership. So what about leadership? What makes a great leader, especially in this time of radical change with technology, ai and you know, the way we've worked, or the way we work now, has radically changed since, you know, 20 years ago. Yeah, so, yeah, what are your thoughts on all that?
Speaker 2:So in my work at Schema Business School in Lille, france, I discussed with my students that leadership is all about the people. It's the responsibility for the performance of a group of people right, so for that you need two things you need to influence others and you need to make a difference in what they do, and the thoughts and the feelings which are driving the actions. From there on, we often land at the three imperatives, as I call them, which make a great leader. And in my definition, in my world, a great leader needs to be able to manage themselves, manage their network and lead their team. So these are the three imperatives.
Speaker 2:And from the imperatives we then move on to what I call the three questions of value-based leadership, which are deeply important to me. And there number one is how do others experience me and themselves in my presence? The second one is what role do I play in the performance or the underperformance of others? And the third question you should ask yourself as a value-based leader is how much suffering are you willing to accept that somebody else goes through for your own benefit? And you alluded to that just before you asked me this question. It's about the questions. For me, most of the learnings. Most of realizations are not in the answers. We find them in the questions, and that maybe to sum it up. For me, leadership is really again as we talked about in the court, it's Shantosuru. Yeah, things should be done properly, properly. Leadership should be done properly. Working with people should be done properly. Leadership should be done properly. Working with people should be done properly, chantosuru.
Speaker 1:You're an outstanding student, martin, so you've pulled out Asobi Gai, so these things we consider play or leisure activities worth engaging in. And now Chantosuru to do things properly. So I love it. I do like this idea of how do you manage yourself that you just mentioned, and that's probably I mean. Without that, you can't really do what follows, and this is probably where most people struggle in life. People struggle in life. They can't manage themselves. They can't manage their mind, their behaviors. They turn to vices alcohol, cigarettes, excessive entertainment to get through the day. So would you have any advice on? You know, how does one gain more control of their mind or their impulses so they make better decisions? That then enables them to either live a more meaningful life or a more successful life, or fulfilling life.
Speaker 2:I think all work and all development really starts with breathing and your body, of being with yourself, of being in sync with yourself, of not finding yourself through others seeking for yourself and the answers in social media or caring about what others think of you. I think the biggest advice I have to give is get comfortable with yourself. It's amazing how difficult that has become, with all the noise around us and distractions around the clock, always at our disposal, and yet people are more lonely than they've ever been in my experience. And yet people are more lonely than they've ever been in my experience. And I think for that to happen, you really need to get comfortable with yourself. In order to get comfortable with yourself, I think there's the approaches of breathing, of yoga, of spending time with yourself, of being conscious about yourself. So that's the best piece of advice which I could be giving Before you try to get comfortable with others, give yourself an opportunity, give yourself a hug and get comfortable with yourself.
Speaker 1:Nice, you seem to be combining two elements of self-acceptance and self-care, and we often struggle to accept ourselves and we often don't allow self-care. We're not worthy of it. Yeah, I love it. I love, yeah, get comfortable with who you are, and I mean, that's so true. I think once you can accept yourself or be comfortable with who you are, you then seem to have the compassion and space to be patient and comfortable with other people, more understanding. So it does start from the self.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think if you don't nurture that seat in yourself, right, if you don't take good care of yourself, how could you reasonably expect, without burning out, that you could care for others? I don't think it works. And maybe at the surface, maybe for a certain period of time, but without nurturing that inner child in us and that person who we truly are, I think it would be ludicrous to think that we could do something for the rest of the world.
Speaker 1:I agree. I think eventually, yeah, you burn out. Or perhaps because it's not really authentic, or you're sort of being disingenuous, people will find out, they'll know hang on, you're not really living this. It's not working for us anymore. So, yeah, you've got to walk the talk, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Exactly and, if I may, on that one, I think human beings have a developed sense for authenticity. We do feel it there's some sensor which is sort of between all our other senses that we realize with others when not, we think they're authentic. But quite often we seem to be lacking that self-control and that self-adjustment for ourselves, that awareness when we are really authentic. And then you try to gloss over at the corners and you don't want to let yourself shine through, instead of being open, honest and loving and caring with and for yourself. And I think that is really a challenge which I'm experiencing in my work and in my life.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. Yeah, I think we experienced that in our cohort and we had this cozy cohort with the wonderful Veronica, and you both embraced, you know, all these facets of Ikigai and this led to some amazing discussions and shared insights. So how was that experience for you, let's say, compared to other types of training or programs you've done in the past?
Speaker 2:Well, it was great. What else do you want me to say other than it was amazing? What an amazing experience. But, nick, in all seriousness it was. But what made it great was so, first of all, the thinking time which we had together. But I had thinking time with others in other contexts, but the thinking time and the quality of the thinking time which we had together in the cohort was amazing, was outstanding. Then you, as sort of the facilitator of our learning. Then you, as sort of the facilitator of our learning, you equipped us with vocabulary and tools to describe what we were experiencing. Right, we were able to uncover together things which happened and you helped us and guided us along the path of thinking which has been there in the past over thousands of years. And so suddenly we didn't feel alone. Yeah, we were a small cohort with our facilitator, but suddenly we stood in the context of heritage, right Then, for sure, the intimacy and the vulnerability between us which we were able to exhibit honestly from session one was amazing. I mean, we met online, we were spread across the globe, but from the first encounter we were there together and we didn't shy away from ourselves and from each other.
Speaker 2:And if I look at what the work which was done with the Kamiya questions, for instance, the stuff that really matters. When you ask yourself, in the presence of others, in what ways is my life worth living? In the presence of others, in what ways is my life worth living, or why do I deserve to exist, hell, it doesn't get more foundational than that, it doesn't get more intimate than that. And that is what we've done right. And to be able to discuss these questions in the cohort. That sort of fostered my hope in humanity and human mankind and, at the end of the day, really, with all the work which we've done together in the cohort, it created this. And at the end of the day, really, with all the work which we've done together in the cohort, it created this tribal belonging at the end of the day. So there's really this sense of okay, we went through this together. It was a transformational experience. Now we landed here and we formed this bond between us together.
Speaker 1:Thank you. It is about a sense of belonging and connection together. Thank you. It is about a sense of belonging and connection, and every cohort is unique and often very special in different ways. But, yeah, we really kicked it off with a lot of trust and vulnerability and it seemed to fly by and there's always this kind of not sadness or disappointment, but it's when a cohort ends I'm like, oh wow, we're not going to continue this experience anymore.
Speaker 1:So clearly very valuable for me personally and I'm still amazed I get to do this and connect with people all over the world and I'm often learning just as much or even more from the cohorts I have this privilege to facilitate on this amazing concept and word, but all these other relatable concepts tied to Ikigai. So, yeah, my work is quite unique and special and I'm glad I was able to share that with you. Special and I'm glad I was able to share that with you and, as I mentioned before, you really embraced these ideas of Ikigai and you've done a lot of coaching and coach training. So now that you've you know you've had time probably to process most of it start playing with some of these concepts.
Speaker 2:How does it fit into the picture now? Well, let me assume for a second that you would kick me immediately off your podcast if I were to say that I find it very useful that I've got a Venn diagram with pictures of what you love, what you're good at, what you maybe paid for and what the world needs. So let's take that for a fact for a moment, that that is a no-go area for this podcast, and it shouldn't be anyway, exactly. But, um, look, I think what, what our work has created together, is another tool in the toolbox, or well, frankly, it's another toolbox.
Speaker 2:It's another toolbox which is compatible with the other approaches, which and structures which I'm using in my work, which is, along, reflective inquiry and awareness training, and for me, it's really the result of the ikigai coaching. Training was was a way of thinking or maybe even better, a way of being, and what I find so cherishable about the entire concept is really it was developed again over thousands of years by generations of teachers and practitioners and it's available to all of us. It's there, it's out there, it's ours to use and ours to deploy for the betterment of all of us, and that is really how it sort of fits into my, my entire portfolio yeah, I love your enthusiasm You're just always enthusiastic about this concept and other concepts and learning sharing.
Speaker 1:But I do recall the day we met in Japan. We happened to be in Japan at the same time and I was sick as a dog and I thought, oh, what am I going to do? I've got to hide this sickness and meet this guy and try and come across as full of energy. And, yeah, it was great to meet you and your partner. And then, I think later you shared with me that maybe your partner and yourself were skeptical to some degree about the presence of ikigai in Japan because of what you saw in Tokyo. And it was only when you traveled outside the major cities did you see ikigai in the lives of Japanese. So do you want to touch on that?
Speaker 2:yeah. So first of all, I can vouch for it that when you are sick as a dog, you still function perfectly fine and you know your croissant and your coffee. So that's all, tick the box, done, great. So I've been a frequent visitor to rural Japan over a decade, right, and I always love the tranquility, the beauty of the nature, the cleanliness, the dedication of the people and the raison d'être. So one instance, right, because I've been traveling a lot to the south. So there was always a taxi driver picking me up on my last day to return me to Fukuoka Airport, right, and that taxi driver, of course, would always show up in his taxi driver cap, in his taxi driver uniform, with a neatly tied tie and in an impeccable taxi which seemed to be from at least one century ago, maybe more, um, but you know with these how you call these knitted sort of mats which were around it to protect the entire thing. So this building of art around it and his showing up in, I'm proud because I'm a taxi driver and I drive you to your destination safely and that is my role. That's actually the first time where I came across Ikigai.
Speaker 2:Now let's talk about Tokyo for a second. That's a different, that's a different city, that's a different country, that's maybe a different universe altogether. Right and uh, for for my partner it was the first time in japan, it was the first time in tokyo for her, and in the mornings, you know, we were generally jet lagged the first couple of mornings and we would have already lunch when people would uh, when it was breakfast time and she would see this track of company men and company women moving from the train station to their offices. And yeah, as you said, as you described, she was in shock. Right, she said this is like a track of zombies passing by.
Speaker 2:Are you sure this is the country where you find this? What do you call it? Ikigai? So she was generally shocked. But then, as you and I talked about it a couple of times, it's, it's different facets of one culture and the maybe it's that the ikigai sources or the ikigai kan may just not be apparent to my eyes, which these people who I observe in the mornings on their way to work, are experiencing, but I can can really say so, I can conclude from that that really, in the mountains of Gunma or Niigata Prefecture, or in the tropical beauty of Nagasaki Prefecture, I find so much of this beautiful endowment, of everything that Ikigai means to me, that I'm very happy that Japan is a big country with such diverse bandwidth of what you can find there. Well, there you go.
Speaker 1:I didn't realize you had traveled that often to Japan and traveled, I guess, up the chain of islands. So it seems like you experienced intuitively Ikigai first and then you did the theory and history and explored the psychological and philosophical elements of it later. So that's interesting. And, yeah, I mean Japan is a unique country. It has I call it a country of extremes, you know has this incredible history and beauty and connection to nature and this idea of space and harmony. And then you go to the city and it's crowded and stressful and you do see a lot of loneliness. So there is a lot of loneliness, a lot of stress. So it's fascinating culture to explore and experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, explore and experience. Yeah, and maybe, as you alluded to that, I was kind of intuitively seeking, so I was somewhat, honestly, I was somewhat drawn to you and your work. Why? Because we are meaning making animals, we are meaning making creatures as human beings, and I had experienced it before and, frankly speaking, some of the things which I experienced in Japan, they are not unlike my German upbringing, right Again, like doing things right, being on time.
Speaker 2:This is my job. I've got a training as a waiter and this is what I want to do. I want to be a waiter in the best perfection of the sense of the word. This is something which I've experienced in my own youth in Germany, right and there I think it has eroded over the last few decades and so in homeopathic doses. I find it really really heartwarming to experience it again in Japan, to see it and to find this meaning with which I see that and really, essentially, I honestly think that experiencing it firsthand and then finding you was sort of meant to be to make meaning of what I had experienced. And in our work together I realized a lot.
Speaker 1:You are right. When you're in Japan, you feel acknowledged and served and taken care of and you just see everything done properly and you rarely see garbage or no one leaves you in a state of something half done. They make sure you get to your destination or get what you want. So, yeah, I love that and I love that. Yeah, somehow the stars aligned or the universe conspired to bring us together under this wonderful context of culture and Ikigai, but it's sort of gone. I think it's going beyond that too. We're becoming friends and we're sharing. You invited me in one of your classes and that was wonderful to see you in action and your enthusiasm, so hopefully we'll who knows what we could do in the future together. But on your linkedin profile I saw something that I think is a mantra you live by, which is always in the making, never made. Do you want to expand on that?
Speaker 2:I think it really connects with with this concept of the journey right and, for me, always in the making but never made. So it has this this concept of the journey right and, for me, always in the making but never made sort of has this element of perpetuity right? And there's a clear connection with my energy sources, my two whys, my ancestry. For me, my time on planet Earth is really a journey towards self-actualization. That's what I'm seeking out. I want to understand, I want to make sense and, at the same time, I've got the ambition to enjoy the journey and make most out of it on the way, but not only logistically for myself. I mean making most of it for myself, my loved ones and, honestly, the world. And yeah, I clearly experienced this sort of restlessness, the world. And, yeah, I clearly experienced this sort of restlessness. I've got this joy in exploring and discovering and really living to life to its fullest, and one day I'll find time to rest, but that can wait.
Speaker 1:You do live life to the fullest. You have this abundance of energy and, yeah, you love learning. You did an intensive program of obviously upgrading your French. I think is how you framed it yeah.
Speaker 1:So you do have a lot of ikigai, I think learning, sailing, travelling so we could touch on all of those. But let's talk about your love for the ocean and sailing. That is obviously something that came to you very early, as you mentioned 14. It's probably impacted you and defined you in ways that most people wouldn't understand. So what attracted you to the ocean and I think obviously you've been sailing for quite a while, because you said it all kind of happened around the age of 14, or at least 19, when you started it as a profession.
Speaker 2:I hope, nick, you're not suggesting that I'm old, but, yes, not at all. It's been a couple of years, I've practiced for some time but, frankly speaking, I think that the calling of the sea has always been there full stop. I've got these fond childhood memories of endless summer vacation in southern france, with beaches and surfing and boating. But then, yeah, you alluded to, to my, the 14 year old version of me, my first, and that was when I could combine my passion for the water with a sense of purpose, not only doing it because it's nice, it's comfortable in the sun and water, but there's a meaning behind it. And, frankly speaking, I would say and you equip me with that word the ocean has become my Ibasho. It is my place of refuge, it's the place where I find empowerment, and that is really what the ocean means to me.
Speaker 1:Love it. Actually, I found another paper on e-bashel which I'll share with you after this call, but it was distinctly defining personal e-bashel and social e-bashel, which we've touched on. So it sounds like, yeah, the ocean is intimately a personal e-bashel which we've touched on. So it sounds like, yeah, the ocean is intimately a personal e-bashel, but it's obviously been a social e-bashel in this context of living on ships and working with other people and leading them, and I'm sure you've worked with all sorts of people from all sorts of different countries and different backgrounds. So has it been both a personal e-bashel and a social e-bashel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the ocean is big enough to accommodate both.
Speaker 2:So, yes, yes, it was both, it was both.
Speaker 2:And I realized that now because so I'm sailing as a pastime, right, I'm out there with my own boat, and, uh, don't tell my partner I hope she doesn't listen to the podcast that I quite often enjoy sailing single-handed, which means alone, because then I'm really, I'm in unison, right, it's my boat, it's the ocean, it's me quite often, because my boat is in nova scotia, canada, so there's all sorts of large sea animals around, so so every now and then you've got a whale coming or the dolphins, and they're all there, but it's only them, my boat and me, and that gives me this sense of personal being. On top of that, there's the professional aspect, and I'm currently in the process of reactivating my Master Mariner's license because I want to go out to sea professionally as well. There's currently in the decarbonization of the world. There's the decarbonization of ocean transportation, and I want to play a role in that, and for that there's also this professional aspect to it, and I truly believe that the 50-year-old version of myself will make a better leader on board as well.
Speaker 1:I'm sure he will. In fact, I know he will Going back to when you're sailing purely for pleasure and you're sailing by yourself. I imagine you have these moments of awe where you might see a sunset or the water's flat and calm and you have almost like a spiritual experience with nature. I'm part of this vast ocean or this world or this universe, so does that happen quite often?
Speaker 2:Yes, there's really a gazillion of moments where you have this tranquility, right, the number of sunsets and sunrises you experience when you're out there. Yeah, you've seen them all, but every single time it's a different experience. It's somewhat nice and it's this moment of okay, a new day breaks or a day comes to rest, so they are there. But one of the really touching feelings I had this last summer here I was sailing single-handed from a place called Hollywood Bay in Nova Scotia where I had anchored over the night, and it really got foggy. I got so foggy I couldn't see anything. And from the day before, when I was sailing upwind, there was a lot of swell standing out there. So the boat was just rolling all over the place and you couldn't see anything. So it's scary, right, and it's oh, it was cold because it's the labrador stream out there. So I was freezing, we were shaking, I couldn't see anything, I think I was afraid.
Speaker 2:And suddenly we've got this. There's this sound, right, there's, there's a right whale passing just next to me. He just came to the surface, he surfaced once, blew and went down again. And that moment, nick, I tell you, that was when I said what am I worried about? I'm in unison with the universe, I'm in unison with nature. I'm here, there's nothing I have to worry about, and from there on I quite enjoyed that ride and nothing had changed. I was still rolling from side to side, I couldn't see anything, it was still freezing, but I thought, wow, I'm exactly where I belong. Wow, what a moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's so important. It's kind of inspired me to think oh, how can I spend more time alone, but doing an activity like that, perhaps out in nature, where there's I don't want to call it an element of risk, but where you really are alone and you're still in unison with something or connected to something that happens to be a lot bigger than yourself, which is nature. So I mean, the ocean's quite a unique I mean. I think when we say nature, we think of forests and green trees and whatnot, but yeah, the ocean is something most people probably don't experience that often, and so imagine it's got its uniqueness and this incredible power of gravity pushing the oceans, moving the oceans and all this abundance of life swimming through it, and you're this little boat on the top of it and it can be flat one moment, and then, who knows, huge waves rocking the boat, and that's when maybe you start to think oh, why am I out here?
Speaker 2:and it's interesting, right ever so often as humans now in in our day, and we are there to preserving our lives, to make it most comfortable, so with heated steering wheels and I, you live in Australia, so you don't have it, but we, at minus 20 degrees, we've got heated steering wheels, we've got heated seats, we've got the comfort, we've got heated garage and we just remove every unpleasantry of life. And what does it leave us with? Even more emptiness of life. And what does it leave us with? Even more emptiness.
Speaker 2:And I think that brings us right back to the beginning of this conversation of how a life without challenges is not worth living. I think it is these critical moments which really make us feel alive and be alive and make it worth to be alive, and I think so. The ocean is certainly one place where I find it, but that's really that. That that is me, for whatever weird circumstances the the universe had in stock for me. But I think we find that kind of beauty anywhere, as long as there is undominated nature, and I was told you've got plenty of that in your country as well yes, we do.
Speaker 1:I probably don't see enough of it, though, but, um, I do recall you saying we, yeah, we were talking about challenge, and you said you know, if it were easy, it wouldn't be worth doing, and that's that's true. So we do need challenge and that's our way to grow and actualize and uncover more of who we are and maybe get closer to the person we want to be. And that's another yeah, facet to Ikigai. It's not just sensory pleasure or all these you know, positive things. It's like who can you become when you're under stress and what's a challenge worth pursuing? Yeah, and we need that. Or, yeah, as you say we. We seem to fall into this kind of depression or just this lack of any sense of purpose or meaning to our life if, if we have this abundance of ease. So it is probably one of our biggest problems, like excessive ease and comfort and no friction, no stimulation. It's like we're becoming weaker rather than stronger.
Speaker 2:And in shipping circles we've got this saying right the calm sea has never made a great sailor. And I think there's a lot of truth in that. If you don't face off adversity, if you don't stretch yourself, if you don't, you know you get into your comfort zone. If you don't know where your boundaries of your comfort zone are, because you never overstep them, you will never grow. You will always stay in this little playground of your comfort zone and I can guarantee you that that is not where you find the good stuff. We've been grazing in this little turf all our lives. We know it. There is no hidden gems in there. The good stuff is sort of waiting outside of that right, and for that you need to go into that journey and venture out of your own playbox and to share that part of the personal story with you.
Speaker 2:From my transition, my life transition, just a few months back, there was, of course, there was excitement about what was ahead, but there was also anxiousness. Right, I was anxious about what may be ahead, the things which I couldn't see and foresee and I didn't know. I couldn't control the unknown. But at the same time, because I've been working towards it for a long time and thinking it through. I've done a lot of prep work with the people around me. I knew I could lean in into the discomfort and I think that's an important aspect that it's really. If you continuously remain in your comfort zone, you will never venture out to where really the good stuff happens.
Speaker 1:I agree totally. I think I shared with you that experience with my retreat last year, first time to do it. So much planning and preparation, but it really doesn't prepare you. You've got to take a risk, you've got to embrace it, and I mean not just hope but trust. The people you bring together will create a great dynamic. You've done all the preparation and even if things go wrong, you'll handle it and you know most cases you do. And then, yeah, you can do it again and you can tweak it and make it more enjoyable, fulfilling. And and now I'm, you know, now I'm contemplating oh, how about a three-day workshop in Tokyo? And so, yeah, every little experience or every challenge you overcome leads to other ideas. And, yeah, you're right, you create your own Once you step outside your comfort zone. It's almost you're creating this playground that you're yet to explore but keeps growing, and that's really exciting yeah, it is exciting and, at the same time, so.
Speaker 2:Look, I mean, I'm not talking about standing at a cliff, jumping down and wishing that you learn how to fly on the way down. In all likelihood, that's not going to happen, right? But that's not the concept which you and I talk about. We're talking about it is hard work period. It takes a lot of preparation, it takes consideration, it takes a lot of thinking and it takes people. You need to engage. We talked about leadership. You need to engage the people around you, your network, and all that is hard work can be very uncomfortable, can be very unpleasant, can be very uncomfortable, can be very unpleasant, but I'm convinced that the outcome, the opportunities which lay beyond those boundaries of our comfort zone, are so big that they outweigh the risks on the way there, if we are willing to invest the energy and the resources to plan it properly. And, as you said, there's still unknowns, there's still vulnerabilities along the way. But if you've covered however many of your bases, I think you'll be just fine.
Speaker 1:Well, that might be the perfect way to end this podcast episode, but I will ask you one more question. We've touched on sailing, your love of coaching, leadership, I think. You love to travel, you love to learn languages. Are there any other Ikigai sources? I don't know about.
Speaker 2:No, you know them all, but maybe the listeners to this podcast don't know yet that I'm an avid practitioner of yoga. That's right, yoga is really on the yoga mat, where you find me every day. That's where the yoke between mind, body and my breathing come together. So that is a big source of who I am as well, nice, I might have to get into that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I've learned so much from you, martin, and really appreciate you and our friendship. So thank you so much for your time today. Arigato, arigato, ne, okay ja ne.