The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
The Spark of Life: Using Ikigai to Inspire and Empower Others with Katie Sandoe
What gives you energy? What is the spark that lights your fire?
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Katie Sandoe to explore how ikigai can inspire and energize people, helping them rediscover passion and purpose.
And what Ikigai does is give you the opportunity to pause and consider in these different areas of my life. Where do I find joy? Where do I find fulfillment? Where do I find purpose? And guess what? Americans and Westerners. It doesn't have to be in these big, huge stuff. It can be in the small things that give you great joy, that people might otherwise laugh at.
Speaker 2:Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom. At ikigaitribecom, my guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Dr Katie Sando, a sparkologist. Katie is a keynote speaker, entrepreneur, educator, ikigai Tribe coach and spark type advisor. Katie, you have a master's in communications and a doctorate in adult learning and are a professor in communications and adult learning, and you have extensive experience in various industries and business settings. For nearly 25 years, you've provided strategic communications and executive leadership to numerous organizations in such places such as equitable housing, marketing and advertising, and even in recycling and solid waste management. So that's all very interesting. More importantly, katie, you believe that we're all created for a purpose, and yours is to spark the flame of purpose in others and to help women live into their limitless potential. With that, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1:Nick, my mate, my friend, my Aussie connection. It is a great gift to be here in ShareSpace and talk all things Iggy Guy with you.
Speaker 2:Likewise, it's good to reciprocate. I was on your podcast, so glad you're on mine. Yeah, let's start with your background. What would you like to share with our listeners?
Speaker 1:You touched upon it in my bio, but if I were to describe what is most important to me like, this could be engraved on my gravestone it's that I want nothing more than for people to know that they matter and their lives have a purpose, and that infuses all aspects of my life, whether that's just how I show up with my friends, my family, my neighbors, the barista at the coffee shop, the work that I do, it just infuses all aspects about me. So that's like the existential part, and then your listeners will find out very quickly I'm both a doctor and a dork. Like you're going to get the very intellectual, cerebral, intense, existential Katie, and then you're also going to get the comedian. And so the other labels that I like to attribute to myself is I am an educator. I'm a lifelong learner. I love nothing more than to teach and facilitate moments of learning and discovery. I do have my own consulting company and I'm a podcast host. But most importantly, nick, I'm a taco lover. I love street tacos. They are my life.
Speaker 2:Really. I don't think I've ever had street tacos, so one day you'll have to treat me.
Speaker 1:You are missing out and it's not a joke, y'all Like. My license plate on my car says taco lover. It's a legit thing, wow.
Speaker 2:Well, that sounds like a little source of ikigai, but you touched on helping people feel needed, or hoping that people feel needed and also that people have a sense of purpose, and that's very much related to what we're going to talk about today, among other things, ikigai. So you did take my Ikigai tribe certification and we actually did it one-on-one, which is quite a unique experience. So I think that's sort of the reason why we get on like a house on fire. We're good mates now, and I soon realized how much you love to invest in learning because you are so knowledgeable in so many things. I was a bit overwhelmed, like you just seem to know everything. So where does this thirst for knowledge come from?
Speaker 1:So I'll answer that two ways. One is I have always been the why kid. So for those of you who are parents or you work with kids or you're around kids, there is this curiosity that kids have where they want to know why, why does something work this way? Why do we need to do it this way? Why you tell me I need to wear this, why? And I have always been that why kid? And I have carried that curiosity with me even now, well into my adulthood, where I'm always wanting to know the why behind something and, in particular, my why is around human thinking and behavior, why?
Speaker 1:do people think, the way they do act, the way they do talk, the way they do perceive the world, and that has driven me to want to discover all of these different elements. So I am the why kid is how I say it. I was the kid where I asked my parents why the sky was blue. They gave me an answer, and I would want five more answers, and so that very much describes who I am. So I believe it's just instinctive into who I am. I am intrinsically motivated to learn, and, as that relates to the work that I do, I am very much driven to want to learn something new, a new perspective, a new concept, a new way of living, new set of practices, so I can help my clients and I can help the people that I work with live better, enjoy their work better, and so that's what led me to Ikigai is just curiosity of asking a lot of why questions.
Speaker 2:It's a wonderful mindset or approach to living or trait and I think once you start learning and asking why, you realize how much there is to learn and you almost get the sense of I really do have limited time on this planet. Now. There's so much I could learn.
Speaker 1:Do have limited time on this planet now.
Speaker 2:There's so much I could learn, just even within one culture or even in one field or subject. So asking why is a great question I often ask myself like why is that? Why does Japan have these unique words, or why does Japan produce these unique cultural practices, or why do they have these unique arts? So that's obviously what attracted me to Japan. And then, eventually, ikigai. But I would say, one of your Ikigai involves young girls and women, and much of what you do now is about championing girls and women, so would you like to talk on that please? I always love to talk about championing girls and women, so would you like to talk on that please?
Speaker 1:I always love to talk about championing women and girls in life, and you're right so to use the Ikigai terminology. My kokorozashi is to help people find purpose in their work and at work. Find purpose in their work and at work and diving a bit deeper, in particular, championing women in that process. And I came to this work. I reside in the United States. The culture that I know well because it is my culture, is the United States, and in my graduate studies work I was noticing. Part of that work was doing research around the lack of representation of women in political leadership in the United States and seeing the real disparity at all levels of political leadership, that there was a lack of women representation in that space. And I came across a study that forever changed the course of my life. It really did.
Speaker 1:And this study found that and this is going to be particular to Western cultures where when little girls and little boys are in elementary school and below, they have equal levels of confidence to lead, they'll raise their hand to be at the front of the line to answer the question, to be president, to be an astronaut. And something happens to girls in middle school around that age where they stop raising their hand, and it's one of the reasons why women have to be asked five times to run for political office before they will even consider it, and men will volunteer. And so I said I want to be a part of a solution where we get to those little girls and we champion them to build their confidence so they can grow up to be women who change the world, because their lives have purpose, and we need everyone to know that. When you wake up in the morning, that is a gift and you have something incredible to do with your life. Whatever you feel called to do up in the morning, that is a gift and you have something incredible to do with your life. Whatever you feel called to do in my goodness, I want you to have the confidence to do that, and so that has led me in many different areas, whether it's volunteering, speaking to women's groups, leading workshops, and I will say that to champion women and girls is as much building their confidence and giving them the skillset to thrive as much as it is needing our men champions, our men advocates to help us, to give us platform, to empower us when we don't have the power to do so.
Speaker 1:So the work that I do around championing women and girls is both supporting and championing women and developing their skill set and rallying our men champions because we need them too and this is very much a part of my kokorozashi and I will say, too, the connection to eBashow. So in my work of championing women and girls, I became a part of a nonprofit organization in the United States called Girls on the Run, and this is working with girls in elementary school to help them build social, emotional learning skills to thrive and my goodness did. I find really a sense of belonging and Ibasho in that community of like-minded people who were rallying around a cause and it very much felt like a place where I belong. So this is a gift that I have to really work with women to live into their full potential.
Speaker 2:Love it. This is what I love about you it's very level-headed but very ambitious attitude towards oh yeah, how can we empower women? And you're not making a case to have an argument about this unlevel playing field, which clearly exists. So you're about empowering men too, and you're dropping all these words. So it just proves what a great student you are, kokorozashi. So this personal mission e-bash a place to be. But to go back to the question, why, like? Why does this happen? Why do young girls, when they enter middle school, suddenly feel that they can't put their hand up? It's obviously some sort of social conditioning.
Speaker 1:So when you look at the research on confidence, and specifically confidence around women, there are three primary factors. One is genetics. Science shows women are neurobiologically predispositioned towards negative self-talk, that internal chatter of I'm not enough, I can't do this, the imposter syndrome. It has a whole bunch of different names. Neurobiologically, women, for whatever reason, are predisposed to have more of that. So that leads us to question more of ourselves. Additionally, from a physiological perspective, we joke that girls mature earlier than boys and I want to be inclusive for all genders, but I'm primarily speaking in that regard the science around it that girls mature earlier than boys and, it is true, their prefrontal cortex, which is that reasoning, that understanding, impact, forward thinking that is developing about five years earlier than boys. And so what we have seen is that girls around the middle school age are becoming more aware of the social expectations put upon them. They are starting to question their worth, their value, their value in their size, in their voice, in what they're interested in, and they're starting to pay attention to these expectations and questioning and then therefore questioning themselves. It's not that this doesn't happen to boys, it's that it's happening later. It typically happens in college age and early adulthood in boys, and so girls are now experiencing this self-calibration much earlier than boys. And then you mentioned too there are the sociocultural influences, and in the United States it is a predominantly patriarchal culture and historically has disproportionately quieted women and kept them small in voice and size, and particularly what we're talking about in the public sphere, so in the public realm, in work, in politics, in these community spaces, and there are still lingering effects of that and that is coming together where girls then are experiencing these pressures and they're not even aware of it.
Speaker 1:The founder of the Girls on the Run nonprofit organization, molly Barker she's just amazing, she came up with, coined this term, girl box that essentially, around the middle school age, girls get put into a box and they keep themselves there, not intentionally.
Speaker 1:So this is part of the unlearning and relearning of what are the different conditions that are keeping me to stay small in voice and size. And this is where I think, in particular, the perspective and the concepts in the Ikigai body of work can help reframe for women their perception of themselves, what is important to them, their sense of purpose in life, the rolefulness that they have, their sense of community, all of these different elements. Ikigai itself is not going to solve the issue of the girl box, but within it itself are some wonderful tools to be able to change the way we think about ourselves, particularly as women. So, to answer your question in short version, there is both a physiological component to it nature, right and nurture. From a sociological perspective, how you're raised, your family, where, the educational institutions if you have a faith institution, media, pop culture these different elements very much shape how we come to understand ourselves as an individual identity and then as part of our social identity.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I definitely agree. Women mature far earlier than boys, or even some men. I'm probably an example of that.
Speaker 1:At least you admit it, Nick.
Speaker 2:I can admit it, I mean it's true. So that might be the irony. It's like, oh, women mature earlier than men, yet they have very little representation in kind of most forms of leadership. So this does lead us to one woman who really broke the mould in Japan, obviously, a country where, back in the 1960s, to do what she did was incredibly rare, and it's a source of inspiration, I think, for both of us, and this is why I like to call her the mother of Ikigai and I like to champion her along with her work. She was Japan's research pioneer, lived this amazing, unconventional life and, despite great success, had a lot of I guess, what we'd call lack of ikigai in her life as well. So she had a really interesting life and produced this amazing body of work, and her name is Mihiko Kamiya. So we studied and discussed her work together. What did you find inspiring and helpful about her work?
Speaker 1:So many things and this is why y'all, if you have not taken Nick's certification course, what are you waiting for? Because it's phenomenal. But I knew I liked Nick from the beginning when he introduced me to the mother of Ikigai and really attributed the I'm going to say recent, in the last you know what 40, 50, 60 years, this birth of research around Ikigai, and much of it originates with Miyake Kamiyo, and there's a couple of things that resonated quite deeply with me personally in who she was, what I understood of her through the work that you gave Nick, and one is that she had this curiosity in her work with lepers Japanese lepers from a psychological standpoint and from a psychiatric standpoint, that otherwise these people could have every reason to be miserable. Their bodies are deformed, they're in pain, they are isolated on these islands and so they are social outcasts. And they had such a vibrancy for life and felt fulfilled. And she saw that and the curiosity around wanting to capture that and not just from a research perspective and not just from a research perspective, but bring that for everyone in her writing of the book, and I am so grateful when someone does not have the ego of academia that it's all about the research, but that she wanted to write this book and she felt this was her life. Calling was to write this book, to be able to put this into the world.
Speaker 1:And in American culture there was a wonderful adult educator, christian Lindemann, who said that true learning does not belong within the ivory walls of academia, but that really learning happens when you can bring it out to the people. And this is what she did, and so right away I just had such profound respect for her to see that she wasn't just interested from a research perspective but really wanted to capture the spirit of what she was witnessing and to bring that to people. So that was one thing. And the other element that resonated with me about her was that doing that work is hard and there are conflicting priorities in your life. She was trying to finish her dissertation work and she was married and she had kids.
Speaker 1:And particularly when I'm talking about champion women and girls, women can be so often conditioned that you need to prioritize your family, your children, these nurturing aspects of you and other things take a backseat, and I think she showed through her life now. It wasn't easy, but she showed that, yes, my family is important to me, but, my goodness, I cannot die, my life cannot go away until I finish this thing. And how beautiful, what a beautiful example and role model for women to say you can't have it all, but you can have things that are really important to you. And it doesn't have to be all situated within the context of family and these nurturing aspects. You can want and desire something so incredible and feel such a calling to bring it to life. And I just want to pause and I can say, when I say you can't have it all, I'm simply saying that there is a recent dialogue that we like to tell women of oh, you can have it all and do it all, and that, quite frankly, is impossible. And I don't want any women listening to think that you have to try and do it all.
Speaker 1:And I think Kamiya's life is an example of that. I mean, she struggled with a lot of things. She struggled with mental health, she felt really conflicting priorities, and so she was living that experience. But I just was rooting for her as I was living the story of you know she had a lot of expectations from a traditional, you know, woman in the household and yet she was like nope, don't take me, lord. Don't take me until I've written this book. So those were the things that really resonated with me about her.
Speaker 2:It is a fascinating life and I agree with you. I mean, it was almost as if she was tracked in academia. And, yeah, you know this quote I read from her diary where she was basically saying my demons are raging today and I could almost kill myself how long do I have to keep going correcting English papers of my husband's students? So she was doing her own sort of academic work and then, yeah, because she was a linguist, you know, I guess the husband was like, hey, honey, could you check these papers? And what I really appreciated about her was her honesty, that at times she realized all this other work can be done by other people, even the upbringing of children, and she had this incredible desire to express herself and for her it was through writing this book. And I think sometimes as a parent, it's like, yeah, man, I've got to. I remember having to take Luke, my son, to sport and all these things, and there were times like you do feel, man, I wish I could focus on what I want to do and I really appreciated her transparency on that. Like we all have this desire or hopefully some of us have this desire to respond to this urge, to what she described as give expression to yourself. And she found that, and it was obviously through writing her first book. And despite her success, or her perceived success linguist, translator, professor, tutored the former Empress of Japan was even an interpreter during the Tokyo War crimes trial none of that really seemed to matter and she had this desire to research Ikigai but also improve the lives of the lepers you mentioned. She was focused on that as well and she also lived a relatively short life. You know she died at the age of 65. She had all these health problems, eventually got cancer, but she was quite prolific too. So she wrote several books towards the end of her life. And, yeah, she really found her ikigai in writing. So I agree with you.
Speaker 2:This idea of you can have it all and do it all. I mean it's sort of a very, I guess, american or Western attitude and it is not true. I think you can have something that matters, that will allow you to be, you become the person you want to be. But yeah, you've got to find it and you need the space and the time to find it and nurture it and feel like you're worthy of it as well. And maybe that's the struggle. We might find it, but then we probably think, oh, I'm not worthy of this, I'm not good enough, and maybe you know, maybe I don't know women feel that more than men because of all these reasons you mentioned as to why you know they don't go into roles of leadership, because of this social conditioning. So I hope she is this inspiration to women to, yeah, give expression to something that you really care about. That is essentially your ikigai.
Speaker 1:Well, and I don't know if you would agree or not, but as you're describing the journal entry of her experiencing these demons of like oh God, if I have to edit one more paper of my husband's, or you know, this is the example of when you find your Hataraki guy work worth doing, that you come fully alive and to your point, fully expressed. And when you're doing things that aren't worth it to you, they can feel maddening and this is what drain you. It is soulful exhaustion, and I think that is what a lot of people are experiencing right now, particularly in the United States and in other Western cultures is they're doing a lot of things that aren't worth it, but they're doing them because it will get them something else, maybe more money, maybe the title, more respect. I don't know what it is Accumulation of something, of power, of wealth, of status, and it's not always for ego reasons, it's just.
Speaker 1:This is what we're told you got to do big things and so it requires you to do a lot of stuff that really, when you look back on your life, it's not worth it. And so you're describing, like all of these things that her CV or her resume would be so impressive, of who she tutored and what she published, and to her she's like, yeah, but that in the end, that's not the work that is worth doing to me. This is the work that is worth doing to me, and so I thought she also exemplified of this struggle that we have of doing things because we have to. This is also adulting you have to do stuff that you don't like, but ensuring that you're bringing into your life things that are worth doing, because that is what brings a sense of joy and fulfillment and worthiness to your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned some people kind of chase all these things with great ambition, thinking it'll provide them with this life satisfaction or sense of worthiness. And then there are other people who just seem to accept the status quo and this is how life is you just work and then you enjoy weekends and holidays and then you retire. But I think both scenarios don't provide that life worth living, and life is definitely a journey of ups and downs. But yeah, ikigai touches on this idea of agency and so you have to define the life you want and then try and pursue it and along the way you discover okay, I thought it was this and now I realize it's not, but then that guides you to the next step and then eventually, I guess, you find what is your ikigai. So maybe that was the journey for Miya Kokamiya, but she did have this strong connection to both writing and she did write about her first experience recalling when she first saw lepers. And she did write about her first experience recalling when she first saw lepers and she was inspired by the nurse who was looking after these lepers at a church service where she was playing the organ.
Speaker 2:So I think we also have these moments in our childhood or early years, where we have that first taste of ikigai or a sense of purpose. Have that first taste of ikigai or a sense of purpose and it's fascinating how it might take decades before you go back to it or before you somehow realise oh, that was a telling moment and I'm in a position to explore it. So I've got so many questions I could ask you. But I love you as a student. You dropped hatarakigai, so work worth doing, so nothing gets past you. You seem to retain everything. So, with this approach to life, using Ikigai, what does it offer people that's unique or different to Western approaches to coaching and personal development?
Speaker 1:If you choose it to be, ikigai becomes a framework to help you refocus on what you give your time, your talents and your treasures to, and here's what I mean by that, particularly in Western culture. We are just inclined we do everything big. There's this joke in Texas, which is a state in it's like a whole other country within the United States. They say everything's bigger in Texas. Americans just got to do everything big and apparently we have to be the first at everything, and in some respects that has served us really well. We've been able to invent awesome things, do incredible things. But it also becomes this mantra, as though you have to live this big life constantly.
Speaker 1:That is exhausting and it leads to a lot of soulful depletion. And much of the work that is being done by experts around well-being, addressing exhaustion, addressing burnout, has a lot to do with attending to the body. Deep breathing practices, yoga, exercise, meditation, better diet and all of those things are wonderful, so I am not disregarding those things. But what I believe is happening quite a bit in the United States and from what I learned too, with globalization it sounds like it's starting to infuse in different areas in major metropolitan areas in Japan is the fact that people are soulfully exhausted. And so when you've reached the point of overwhelm and exhaustion and burnout, yes, your body is telling you that something is wrong, but it's not a body issue. It's presenting in the body. I think it's a soul issue. And when you're examining what you're currently giving your attention to, your focus to it's on all of these things. Oh, I should do more of this. Maybe I should do less than this. I'm investing in people who are really not that's not great relationships. There's so much that's out of my control that's happening and all of this is taking your attention and your energy and none of that is soul filling stuff. It is actually soul-draining.
Speaker 1:And what Ikigai does is give you the opportunity to pause and consider in these different areas of my life, where do I find joy? Where do I find fulfillment? Where do I find purpose? And guess what? Americans and Westerners? It doesn't have to be in these big huge stuff. It can be in the small things that give you great joy that people might otherwise laugh at To you.
Speaker 1:It's really meaningful, nick me every morning going on a walk with my dog, my little Australian Labradoodle, I know, going on a walk with him and just watching his curiosity of the world and being outside in the fresh air and that moment, leaving my cell phone aside, that is such a source of icky guy for me.
Speaker 1:That is where I find you, tori. Spaciousness of my mind is I get to go with this little sentient creature who doesn't care at all who I am, what I do, the title that I have, this little furball is just so enamored with me as a person and I get to go for a walk outside with him. That brings me so much joy. Waking up in the morning when it's really quiet and it's dark out, and just sitting at my table doing some scripture reading, doing some meditation, drinking my cup of coffee, that is precious time. And if you're so focused on doing the big things, achieving the big goals, training for the big thing, you miss out on the beautiful little things that contribute to a meaningful life. And we know Ikigai also includes the big things. But in regard to how does it help, from a Western perspective, reframe things? It elevates for us the importance of the small things that we're not giving enough attention to.
Speaker 2:You've reminded me of a few moments I had this week with just my son. My son was looking outside of a window and he saw this little bird sort of hopping about in the garden and he said oh dad, this bird has ADHD. It's a joke. So I go over and we just watch this little bird jumping about, frolicking and putting its beak in the dirt or trying to find maybe a worm, and then it jumped up to a branch and then another branch and it was such a nice little moment and then we were just silently watching together and then it eventually jumped over the fence to another tree and I thought, wow, that was like this little special moment we'll never have again in the same way at least. And I thought, wow, that was like this little special moment we'll never have again in the same way at least.
Speaker 2:And then another thing we do is speaking of birds. We have, like this toy bird that's really for my cat, and we've sort of developed this regular game of throwing it into the laundry basket, sort of at a distance. We kind of have these penalties If you lose, you have to go to the shop and buy a snack or something. And this is how we play and we don't plan it. He'll just sort of walk into my room when I'm working and go Dad, let's have a round. We call them rounds now. And that's the time where I seem to really enjoy the day. I might get a sale of my course or something and feel great. But it's these other moments where it's related to often, people or, you know, your dog or a bird that seem to, yeah, give you that little lift during the day.
Speaker 2:And I'm all for goals and ambition and I'm a pretty ambitious person. But you've got to ask yourself like, oh, where does this ambition end? And it comes with a double-edged sword because, yeah, you're using your skills and you've got this sense of purpose, but if you overcommit, it can be health problems or you might be chasing something that's not really aligned to what you care about. So there is a balance and I think you're right. Ikigai does reframe things so you can appreciate the small and that you're living aligned to your values and that you're not overstepping, because we have enough stress in our life as it is. Yeah, so I like that idea. It is in the small, but it does allow you to pursue ambitious things that are aligned to your values.
Speaker 2:And then there's the irony. You're right, like even in Japan, there's a huge lack of ikigai or a lack of ibasho, and I've researched keywords like Google Trends and ikigai nai or ibasho nai, meaning lack of ikigai or lack of ibasho. Are these common terms related to the concept and maybe that's the price we pay for capitalism? Like the goal of capitalism, I, is to want more, sell more, have more, and it's really hard to, or it seems hard for us to work out. Oh, how much is enough?
Speaker 1:So I've been using a metaphor of the fire triangle to explain to people how Ikigai. Explain to people how Ikigai, trying to give them an accessible way, because it's this rich, complex, beautiful body of work that has ancient historical significance to the Japanese culture and also academically, there's so much that we can learn from it. And so how do I succinctly give people a word picture to understand what it can do for their life? And I've been using the fire triangle. And the fire triangle comes from the space and industry, of those who are looking to combat fires and looking to address that. And there's three main components that a fire needs in order to thrive it needs a spark right, it needs order to thrive, it needs a spark right. It needs an ignition source, it needs a constant source of fuel and it needs the right environment. It needs oxygen and those three things together create the chemical reaction for which fire happens.
Speaker 1:And as I look at Western cultures, we don't lack spark. So the big ambition, the goal, the purpose, the thing we're driving towards our values, like yeah, we can manifest a lot of spark in our life and fuel as well the things that you invest your time and your talents and your energy in, whether it's paid work or not paid work or hobbies or learning. We can just fill our lives with all of these fuel sources, and so you can spark the heck out of. Just fill our lives with all of these fuel sources and so you can spark the heck out of it, and you can have all of this fuel. But if your fire doesn't have space to breathe, it will suffocate. And I look at the environment for a fire to thrive in this oxygen, as these concepts in Ikigai of community of Ibas Show a place where you belong, where you can be seen, as well as Utori, spaciousness in my mind, space to be worry-free, space to be creative, space to just be present, and that is what I think we are so lacking in Western culture is. I and some people don't have this, but I think a lot of people can find and quickly access what are the things that motivate them, what are their values, what is their purpose, what drives them, what are those big goals I want to set and achieve. Not everybody does it, but I think we can easily get to that and certainly we can fill our time with all kinds of stuff that maybe is even deeply meaningful. That is, yari guy, things worth doing, but if you're not creating the space for you to breathe, for your life, to breathe both relationally, being around your people, your community, your Iba show, and just having space to be human, then your fire will burn out. And so Ikig guy becomes this reminder.
Speaker 1:This is how I've been describing to people. This is what it does for you to be on fire about your life, deeply passionate without burning out. Which are the areas for which you want to address where you feel like your fire is burning out. Maybe you have all kinds of community in EBASHO. Maybe you've got some great meditation practices, you've got spaciousness of mind, but you're bored, right. So maybe you need to focus on more things in your life that will fuel that fire. Or maybe you have those two things and yet you don't have a big ambition that you're working for. So I've been using that as a metaphor to be able to help people quickly access and identify where the areas in their life.
Speaker 1:If you think of your life as a fire, do you feel alive?
Speaker 1:Do you feel like lit on fire, passionate about your life?
Speaker 1:Can you say are you in love with your life?
Speaker 1:Not a part of it? Not like I love being a mom, or I love being a dog mom, or I love being a boss, or I love being a dog mom, or I love being a boss, or I love being a friend, or I love cooking. No like, do you love all of your life? Are you madly in love with your life? And if you aren't, where are the areas that you want to tweak? And that's where Ikigai gives you this ability to lean into the things that really give you deep meaning and joy and much like a fire. You know it's not stagnant. You have to continue to nurture and tend to the fire and it will evolve over time as the conditions evolve. And that's the same thing with your life. You will grow and learn, things will change around you, people will come and go, and so you can't just say this is what my fire is in now, and then in five years you could find that it's burnt out because you've not been tending to what it needs all along that timeframe, love it.
Speaker 2:I love how some of my clients frame Ikigai for their context, which is what you've done and you've really embraced all the learnings from Ikigai. So you keep dropping words and you've really embraced all the learnings from Ikigai. So you keep dropping words. You just drop yadigai, so things worth doing, which is actually a far more common expression in Japan, and that's I mean that's really interesting, because we can ask ourselves each day what is actually worth doing, regardless if it's pleasant or unpleasant, because getting up early to exercise in the cold might be unpleasant, but it's worth doing.
Speaker 2:Maybe there's this apology you need to make to someone you've been putting off. Maybe you are working too much and you think I need to spend time with a family member. So it's very helpful to frame. It's more like this practical side of Ikigai, where Ikigai's more philosophical, perhaps Yadagai's. This practical approach. And then you mentioned Yutori this room or space to consider others and be reflective and essentially do nothing is something we're lacking. So you have all this knowledge now that you've remembered and you're practicing, and you actually held a workshop on Ikigai recently. So do you want to talk about that, how it was received and so on?
Speaker 1:Oh, I'd love to. So this is the friends you, if you haven't discovered already. There's two things about me that very much drive intrinsically how I show up as a person. One is that I'm a sage, I love to create moments of learning and discovery, like to teach, and I'm a maven, I love to learn.
Speaker 1:And those two things come from the Sparketype body of work, which was developed by Jonathan Fields out of the field of positive psychology, and it was looking at what is the work that fuels you, what is the work that gives you purpose, and you lose all track of time and you get into flow. And I know Ikigai talks about being in flow state. And this body of work is saying what is the type of work in which you do that? And work is both paid and not paid, so it's either vocationally it can be vocationally based but not and for me, I show up as a sage maven where I find deep purpose in my work, where I find that flow state, where I can just, I just light up around. It is when I get the opportunity to be a sage, I live to illuminate and when I'm a maven, I love to learn. So what did I do? I learned with Nick and over the course of I forget how many weeks eight or 10 weeks this incredible learning experience which very much satiated the maven part of me. But then the sage was like I'm sorry, hello, what are we going to do with this information and in addition to utilizing it in my coaching practice? So I'll tell you I'll answer your question to Nick around the workshop, but also encourage folks. If anyone's listening who is a coach or is interested, whether professionally or doing this with maybe your team or your family.
Speaker 1:There's this wonderful element of if people are feeling drained or a lack of passion, ikigai becomes a great coaching tool to be able to help people identify where areas in their life that they want to tweak, and so, from a workshop standpoint, I love to be able to facilitate workshops. That's where my adult learning doctorate comes in, and this is just the space where I have so much fun and you can build beautiful community. So I held a workshop. There's a local business, very large business, who has a foundation arm, and they have this beautiful leadership center and they host folks, experts to come in and do these workshops, and so I hosted a Find your Icky Guy workshop and had oh, we had about 40 people register, which shocked me. I mean, it was right after the holidays, so people are still in like Christmas hangover land, and I heard from so many that this is what their soul needed right now.
Speaker 1:What the research is showing, particularly in Western culture but this is global is that we are facing a human energy crisis, and the World Health Organization actually named it that and so many of the global consulting firms are showing that people are stressed out, their emotional health is down, they are struggling, if not suffering, and this is crossing industries, this is crossing positions, all of these things. And so people are searching. They are searching for new ways of thinking, new ways of living that will help them not feel so soulfully exhausted, and that's how I positioned it. Are you ready to light, set your life on fire? Are you ready to feel deeply passionate and in love with your life again? And if so, let's find your icky guy.
Speaker 1:And so this was an all-day workshop. We had 40 people and I used the FIRE framework that I shared with you, nick around. Let's explore what sparks you, what fuels you, what helps your FIRE breathe and where areas of your life that you want to lean into. I introduced them to what Ikigai is, and Nick provides wonderful tools when you go through his coaching certification program of how you can explain this to people, and shared with them Miyake Cameo and her flower with the seven Ikigai needs plus purpose, and so really laying the groundwork. So there was a small educative element to it of let me inform you as to what Ikigai is not what you're going to find on Google, right what Ikigai is. And then let's really dig into this work and apply it to your life.
Speaker 1:And so use the Ikigai 9 scale to measure, and then started to look at these different areas using Kamiya's flower. Well, I should say it's Nick's flower, it's Kamiya's seven needs of Ikigai plus purpose, for which Nick has created this beautiful flower metaphor. So, using the flower metaphor and then applying that to their lives where are you lacking? Where's an area that you want to lean into? And what was really beautiful is within those 40 individuals who came, which happened to be all women. This was not women exclusive, but it happened to be all women. But you built this beautiful community of women where they could share what is going on in their life, what are they struggling with? And it yielded some beautiful discoveries.
Speaker 1:I had people who followed up afterwards to say, oh my gosh, this was transformative for me. This changed my life. This helped me say this is what I want to do in the next season. This is who I want to be. These are the tweaks that I want to make. It gave them permission particularly women to prioritize themselves right by saying that this is an entire body of work that is showing this is what helps humans thrive, and so you need to prioritize yourself.
Speaker 1:And the beautiful nature of why it was so transformative is, yes, as a facilitator, you need to make sure that you are creating a meaningful learning experience and you are creating the conditions for people to be transformed. But I believe that primarily, it's because of what Ikigai represents is that it is truly a different way for you to look at your life and what brings you joy and meaning, and we don't have a lot of that here in the United States. I'm not saying it doesn't exist there are different elements of it but we're not often able to go to a workshop on ikigai something that's just completely new and different and so it was very well attended. The assessments afterwards, people raved about it and now want to do more of it.
Speaker 2:Well, there you go, and I'm not surprised. I would have loved to been there as a student. I imagine you're an amazing facilitator. You have I mean, speaking of energy you're not lacking energy. Maybe that's where the energy crisis is going.
Speaker 1:You're sucking up all the energy. I'm sucking all of the energy out of people, Nick.
Speaker 2:But it is a joy to talk with you. Always, you do have this positivity and this thirst for life, thirst for knowledge, which brings us to what you call yourself occasionally, yeah, a sparkologist. That's right, you've touched on it and I think our audience probably has an idea. You obviously spark life in others. But, yeah, what do you mean by being a sparkologist?
Speaker 1:Well, listen, I'm not. I wish I had some sort of profound response to that. I spent a good portion of my career in communications and marketing, so I know how to brand myself. But there's two things in that. One is that my company I named my company Light Echo, and the only relevance to that at all is that Light Echo is a term in astronomy, so not astrology, but astronomy study of the universe and a light echo is describing that when we look into the night sky, when you see a star exploding, a supernova happening, we're not actually witnessing that event, that what we're witnessing is the light refracting, reflecting off space gas and space dust, and so what we're perceiving is light that has occurred in some other way, and I thought this is very much how I want to live my life and what I want to do in the work is that I see that we are all light echoes of the people who have invested in us, and I want to do the same, and so I've always been very drawn to this idea of shine your light. For me, I'm a woman of faith, and so there's a scripture element to this of shine your light, especially in the darkness, because this is what people are craving.
Speaker 1:And so, when it came to the Sparkologist, is that I don't always have the opportunities to go and do these lifelong journeys with people. Most of the time I'm coming in and I'm doing a year-long engagement, coaching relationship with someone, or I'm coming in and doing a workshop, or I'm going on stage or I'm on a podcast or I'm hosting a podcast, and those are sparks. Those are sparks of opportunity. Can I spark a new way for someone to look at their life, for someone to think about themselves? Can I spark something that will light them up so that then they become that light echo and there are ripple effects to that.
Speaker 1:And so I have this word picture of the more of us that are sparked and really become on fire, that what a beautiful world we could create together. And, my goodness, does the world need it. There is so much pain and hurt and harm and tragedy and hate and all of this darkness. And so when you choose to live your life as a light echo, man, that brilliance, that warmth, that radiance can transform people's lives. And so I look as a sparkologist, I am studying and I'm living into all of the ways that I can spark that inside the souls of other people, not for my own ego or edification, but, my goodness, like if I can spark something in someone and they come alive and they do the work that they're meant to do. Man, what a beautiful world that we can work together. So, and then I just branded it the Sparkologist Works.
Speaker 2:It touches on the need of a bright future. I think so. Maybe part of your work does that. You're the spark who creates the spark for others to have a bright future, and we want that. We want to believe our life is moving forward in a positive direction. So that's very inspiring work. You do so much, so, yeah, moving forward. How do you intend to include Ikigai in your work? More workshops, speeches, coaching.
Speaker 1:So, yes, in all of these different ways, the work that I do is I'm a professional speaker, I'm a consultant, I'm a coach, and for the professional speaking side, I've built a keynote all around this concept of living your life on fire. What does it mean to have your soul on fire? And I introduced the idea that Ikigai is the solution to burning brightly without burning out, and so I have built a keynote speech around that and have already started to deliver, also, professional development workshops. So I've gone in and I've delivered this keynote to a medical system, to a whole hospital, a whole group of medical system, and then have come in and done leadership workshops specifically on developing Ikigai in the leadership team. So trainings around that, workshops around that I'm going to continue to do that.
Speaker 1:And in my coaching work too is, particularly when I'm working with leadership coaches or people who are looking at life transitions, how can leaning into your Ikigai give you some wisdom and guidance about the decisions that you're making next? And then, nick, I live this. I mean this isn't just something that, oh, I thought was really cool, which I did, but the more I mean I did right, like this is, it's really cool, and so I want to learn more about this and I mean, oh, and I get to learn from a really cool Aussie. So, yes, please. And then you really dig into the work and you realize that if you choose to let it marinate into your soul, or if you let your soul marinate in it, man, the deliciousness that comes from how much your life, the flavor that it can bring into your life, do you like the metaphor that I'm doing here?
Speaker 1:Is anybody hungry yet. But I'm being serious, I live this and, in particular for me, one of the areas that I have to be continuously mindful of is, if I'm talking about that fire triangle metaphor, is that oxygen? And so what do I need to do to ensure I am giving my life the utori that it needs? And the Iba show Because, man, I've got the spark nailed down, I've got the fuel nailed down, I've got all of that, and I can find that my own light, my own fire, can get suffocated very quickly. So, nick, I'm being serious. It infuses all aspects of my life, personally and professionally.
Speaker 2:Wonderful. That's amazing to hear. It is kind of strange. I think I've shared this before. I'm an unlikely source to be teaching this concept, being an Aussie, and I guess it is odd that we're foreigners to the concept and I guess it is odd that we're foreigners to the concept yet it's become a significant part of our lives and work and I've been really impressed with what you've done, because it wasn't that long ago, you know we finished our one-on-one eight sessions. I think it was 10 sessions.
Speaker 1:Because I ask a lot of questions people, because I'm the Y kid.
Speaker 2:So modules went over because Katie asked Nick 50 questions that he had to answer. That's a joy to me. I don't mind a few more sessions if we maintain this connection and, more importantly, if you go out and use it, which you've done. So that's been really inspiring for me and it's like wow, you've already used this in workshops, in keynotes, in work with companies and it sounds like it's having an impact on other people. So it's like that light echo effect you touched on. So that's really inspiring. So I'm sure some people would love to learn more about you and, who knows, maybe even work with you. So where can people find you?
Speaker 1:Everywhere. No, I'm kidding Nick. I am a light echo. I'm everywhere. Um, my website is light echococo. You can find me there. I'm also on lots of socials, if your listeners are on LinkedIn, facebook, instagram. I'm all under the handle of Katie Sando and I just love to connect with people, particularly people who want to make the world a better place. Man, if you're listening to this and you want to make the world a better place, you're my people and we need to connect.
Speaker 2:There you go. Now. I can't end without asking this question. We've just thirst for knowledge and this constant sort of qualification, not qualification, but you just love learning. So what are you working on or what are you learning at the moment?
Speaker 1:Okay, get ready for this, All right. So I have two books running concurrently. One is on the audio version on Audible called Atomic Habits. That's phenomenal. If you haven't read that, that's a great one.
Speaker 1:The other one that I'm reading in print at night is Necessary Endings by Dr Henry Cloud, and it's really looking at in business and in life there are seasons for everything and when is the time that you need to cut things or people or situations and move on from them, and so it's really rich, good stuff. So that's what I'm consuming from a book standpoint, and currently I am getting certified in emotional intelligence, and so this week, in fact, was an intensive, long certification process and I will take my exam and hopefully pass that, because that, I think, is another really key element for people's overall wellbeing and feeling a sense of thriving is, as you're looking at your life, really understanding for yourself, how self-aware are you, how well are you able to express connections and interpersonal relationships, how well do you respond under pressure and in challenge and in decision-making and the role of emotions and all of that. And then I'm not going to tell you I might have two more things keyed up that I might work on certifications later this year, nick.
Speaker 2:Wow, not surprised. Well, it's amazing how much information you retain. At times, I thought I was learning more from you than you were from me.
Speaker 1:I'm going to pause and say real quick, nick, that this is your podcast.
Speaker 1:I understand that, but I'm going to give you kudos because that's when you know you're a great teacher, is when you're approaching the space of learning from your students as much as they are from you. That's when you know you're creating a space where learning can thrive, and that's beautiful. So you have set it up well, and I do want to also say that I know you think sometimes it's odd that you're this Aussie who's bringing icky guy to the Western world, and I couldn't think of no better person, because you've lived in the culture, you speak the language, you read it and so you're able to not just literally translate it but culturally translate it. And in the combination that you have a deep respect for Japan, for the Japanese people, and you are really passionate about ensuring the integrity of the Ikigai concept is brought in a way that respects that country and the people within it, and so that's why I think you are beautifully positioned to do this work and I don't think it ought at all. I'm grateful.
Speaker 2:Well, that's very kind of you. So I accept those comments with much gratitude. And, yeah, you were a great student. You're now a great fun friend, and I can't wait for us to meet in person, whether that be here, there or in Japan. So thank you, katie, for being the spark in my life at times and for joining me today.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Nick. I always, always enjoy our conversation. It's so rich and fun. I appreciate you, my friend.
Speaker 2:Likewise Okay, bye for now.