The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Ikigai and Loss: Finding Meaning in Life’s Hardest Moments
How have you handled loss in your life?
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with June Kashio to explore how embracing Ikigai can provide meaning, resilience, and healing during times of loss.
I mean, grief has really taught me to really just live life to the full. I think that's what the grief expert, david Kessler, says you know, grieve fully, but also remember to live fully. And I think that really resonates with yeah, I have to also take those moments to grieve. I think I'm learning that grief is something that doesn't go away over time and then you kind of move on. No, not at all, it's not something that you move on from, it's something you move forward with.
Speaker 2:Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom. My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is a newfound friend, june Kashiwara. June is originally Japanese, from London, and June studied human resources management and a master's in humanitarian psychology. She has worked in over 10 countries as a humanitarian aid worker and currently works as a staff care and career coach for the aid sector. June also supports accompanying families on the move, having experienced the emotional challenges herself. June is a single mum, a widow, a cancer survivor, and lives in Berlin with her 14-year-old daughter, June. Thank you very much for joining the podcast today. It's good to see you.
Speaker 1:Good to see you too. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:My pleasure. So you reached out to me only like a month or so ago after listening to episode 96, Discovering Ikigai Making Life Worth Living After Losing Everything to War with Marislava Pachenko, who I call Mira, and Mira's just amazing. So she also lives in Germany and she's a member of Ikigai tribe and basically you met her like within two days after you asking if I could introduce her to you. So how was it to meet Mira in Berlin?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was amazing. I was just very inspired by the podcast interview. I think there were many points where I resonated, and when she mentioned that she was coming to Berlin, I just didn't think twice. I thought I had to get in touch with her, have to meet her. Maybe we could collaborate and do events together. It was a very yeah ikigai moment. I was very excited. There was a moment of joy and awe and it just felt right, and so I reached out to you. You answered back very quickly and within minutes I was connected with Mira and we met literally the next day after that podcast was released and it was beautiful. We had a lovely coffee session and it was, yeah, just beautiful, and I'm just so grateful to you, nick. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:It was funny because Mira sent me a photo and I was like what You've met already and I couldn't believe it. So that was an Ikigai moment for me too. I said, oh wow, I seem to be bringing people together, which is a real joy. So, yeah, that's wonderful. So you have this interesting background, so would you like to share some of it? Background.
Speaker 1:So would you like to share some of it? Let me see where can I start. So I'm as you mentioned, I'm originally Japanese, but I was born and raised in England. But really that all started with my mother's story, who you know. She left Japan. She comes from Tokyo. She left Japan in the late 60s. She's the eldest of four siblings and, kind of you know, lived through, let's say, the war, the Great Fire in Tokyo, living kind of in poverty. But somehow she was always inspired to study English and go abroad. She was a bit of a hippie, she was really into Beatles and I think that was her dream to eventually go to London, to UK, and to kind of be in a place where she could listen to the Beatles songs. And that's where it all started, with her journey, and a two-week holiday for my mum ended up being just a one-way ticket. She didn't really come back to Japan and she ended up settling in London. She eventually met her business partner and founded a tourism agency catered for Japanese families and businessmen who were slowly kind of arriving, let's say, into Europe and into UK into the early 80s and eventually my father, who was waiting for her in Japan, actually left his job, which is very unconventional. To follow my mother, and that's where it all started, is very unconventional to follow my mother and that's where it all started. And then, yeah, then my brother was born, and early 1972.
Speaker 1:Then I was born in England and I mean both of my parents Japanese and they had always spoken to us in Japanese. But as kids we were brought up in London, went to a local school in London, so we tend tend to always yeah, we always spoke back, let's say, in English. We went to the odd Japanese language schools on the weekends, but that really didn't work. And it wasn't until I was nine that my father said it's actually time for us to go back to Japan. Our kids are Japanese. They do need to know the language, they need to kind of learn the culture and, yeah, that's why I went to Japan for the first time. So I lived in Japan for six years, from the age of nine to 15. My brother was 11 at the time. He kind of only lasted three years and he went back to England because it was very, maybe too difficult for him.
Speaker 1:But what happened back in the 80s? I mean, there was a term called kikoku shijo, which means returnees. So you have a lot of, let's say, second generation, third generation, let's say, japanese living abroad who eventually decide to come back to Japan. And so there is this term called returnees and there were these preparation schools, let's say, called returnees. And there were these preparation schools, let's say, to prepare returnees to assimilate back into the japanese culture, specifically into the japanese education system.
Speaker 1:So it was kind of, um, yeah, a crash course in one year to learn, to master the japanese language, to learn all the school disciplines, the typical which is like the cleaning the school, how food is served, the typical songs that you have to learn in school, the so-called radio kind of exercises that you expected to learn. So, yeah, I would call it kind of a year being brainwashed to becoming japanese. And as soon as you got the okay, then you were able then to go to the normal Japanese school, maybe because I was nine, I was young enough to pick up the language quite quickly. So, yeah, I assimilated very, very quickly and was able then to do my last two years of elementary school in a local Japanese school, then went on to junior high school.
Speaker 1:As I said for my brother, he just could not pick up the language, he could not keep up with the schooling system and, as you know, with the Japanese education system.
Speaker 1:You know, if you don't keep up, if you keep failing, then yeah, you're not very well accepted or supported. So in my brother's case, my parents decided to send him back to England, where he was then sent to a boarding school and eventually I then wanted to join my brother and at the age of 15, my first year of high school, I had asked my parents if I could also return to England, and which, for me, I was kind of like going back home to England. But it was a completely different experience. I experienced the so-called reverse culture shock. Going back to England after become so Japanese, let's say. So, it took me, I think, longer to readjust to the life of being in England again, and then that's where I was at an age, you know, with my mid-years of teenage years, of also just asking myself where do I belong? Who am I? Am I Japanese, am I British? So I would say, yeah, that became a bit of a challenge growing up.
Speaker 2:Wow. So there you go. I mean it sounds like an intense experience, but maybe at nine probably just felt like normal or you could handle it, all that education to return to Japan and fit in. I can relate to sort of language at home because I have a son who's obviously half Japanese, australian, and my wife can speak English fluently but she chooses to speak only Japanese in the house. So even when we're talking she'll say something in Japanese and I'll usually reply in English. It's a bit odd but it's normal for us and that's how my son has been brought up to hear, I guess, the mother tongue of each parent and that's how my son has been brought up to hear, I guess, the mother tongue of each parent.
Speaker 2:That's something I can, yeah, relate to to some degree. So that's quite interesting, those crucial young years, I guess, where you, you know you turn from child to teen in Japan and then coming back and I guess, struggling with reverse culture shock, coming back and I guess struggling with reverse culture shock. But when you look back at that time and I guess the time you have lived in Japan, what aspects of the culture have you found that have been most impactful on your life?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess I'm feeling more the impact now, many years later, as an adult. I'm in my early 50s now and it's not really until the last few years that I've kind of had the interest or the need to reconnect with my roots or reconnect with Japan. Up until then, I think somehow part of me have kind of shunned away from it or tried to avoid being with other Japanese people. I don't know where that really comes from, because I don't remember having any traumatic bad experiences in Japan. I mean, as I said, I was quite young, it was my life as it was, it was as it was and I quickly did make friends. I did really become like a real Japanese teenager. I mean, there were a few odd moments of bullying my early years because of course I dress differently, I didn't speak good Japanese, but you know, I don't feel that's that's something that has really, yeah, that's traumatized me growing up as a adult.
Speaker 1:But I guess I'm beginning to really appreciate the beauty of its country, the Japanese heritage which is really being lost more and more today. I would say so, and just reconnecting with Japanese. And thank God I did live in Japan those years, Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to speak in Japanese. So that's kind of a nice feeling of yeah, it's kind of giving it a second try, yeah, A reset on. Let's try to discover Japan all over again in a much more accepting, loving way, but also with curiosity, because although I am, you know, Japanese full-blooded, but of course I've been raised in Europe and with my work I've been working overseas and over different 10 countries, so I come with a very much rich, let's say a mosaic, colourful personality and so I think, yeah, I can appreciate Japan much more now than maybe from what I remember in my early years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess we all have a unique journey in our life and yours is quite unique. So I was thinking about what's your sense of identity like with your upbringing? You're, having traveled to so many countries and UK was home, but you're now living in Berlin, so how would you describe your sense of identity, and is it something you think about often now, or it sounded like you did explore it when you were a teenager, but what if you also think about it now, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, today I kind of look at it as I have a feeling I don't really fit in one specific country. Back then I was kind of forcing myself to be Japanese to fit in Japan. I did the same being in England, try to be English, be you know, fit into British society. But deep down I never felt that I belonged to neither Japan, england. And I think I accepted that growing up, that through my travels and working overseas, that actually I can belong anywhere everywhere at the same time. And yeah, for me, I like belong anywhere everywhere at the same time. And yeah, for me I like to use the analogy of the hermit crab so you know the hermit crabs, Nick, that kind of.
Speaker 2:I think so. They just take up residence anywhere, do they?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they wander around on the shoreline and the beaches and the sand, often in hot tropical weather, but they actually expand over, you know. They can change different sizes and they have to kind of protect themselves with shells, right. So of course, as their body grows, expands or changes, they constantly have to find new shells to protect themselves. And I kind of relate to that.
Speaker 1:I kind of see myself a little bit as a hermit crab because I am kind of always wandering around different places and part of me, yeah, whether physical or mental, emotional sizes, I constantly feel I am changing, I have changed and I felt that I always had to adjust and re-adopt and kind of find a new home, and so these shells kind of represent the different residencies, the homes that I had to live in, the different places in the world that I traveled and worked, and so, yeah, I kind of call myself like a global nomad, I'm the citizen of the world and when often people say to me you know so, where you come from, where you know, and often just say, well, I'm just June, I'm Japanese, from England and living in Germany right now, and who knows where I'll be next year sort of.
Speaker 1:So I try not to kind of mold or try to force myself to fit in in one particular place, which is kind of a sad feeling because I do always kind of envy others who you know have their family nearby, grew up in one place, have their kindergarten friends, and you know kind of envy that because that's something I've never really had, yeah, in my own life growing up.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's familiar to me to some degree. This happened before my parents' divorce. But I remember going to school one day it was the first day of the school year and excited to be back at school in primary school and sitting next to a friend and he sort of bumped me and said, oh, your mum's at the door. And yeah, the teacher sort of called me over and gave me a hug and said I'm going to miss you. And then we got in a car and left this life and that kind of was the end of the family. And then it was me and my brother living with a single mother and we kind of left the extended family. And yeah, we've always celebrated Christmas with other families who have lots of brothers and sisters.
Speaker 2:So I've always had that um, envy of, ah, be cool to be part of a, a big, stable family who kind of stick around, but um, wasn't to be. So what can you do? You can't really change anything. So some small families are good too, but yeah, it'd be nice to be part of a bigger family. So anyway, that's kind of related to today's theme loss. So I thank you for being here, june, to talk about this and open to discuss it and I feel like we're really kind of good friends now to discuss this. So, yeah, I really appreciate it. So would you like to share what happened to you about six years ago?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure. So I would say I've gone through, looking back, gone through multiple losses, but I think the biggest loss happened really six years ago when I was posted out in the Middle East. I was in Lebanon at the time for my work. My husband was working in Turkey, also as an international assignment, and, yeah, tragically, he died in a train crash during a business trip. I mean, what can I say? Luckily, I mean, I was in Turkey when it happened. I mean, I had just finished my assignment in Lebanon, I had packed up, I was there with my daughter, who was seven, going on eight, let's say and so we were kind of living apart due to our jobs and we were only able to see each other really once a month. So it reached a point where I also got quite burnt out with my job and it just made sense to pack up and then join my husband in Turkey. And it was, unfortunately, after three months of our arrival that this event, this accident, happened. And so, yeah, it was very sudden. It happened a week actually after my daughter's birthday. It just turned eight, it was the end of the year, it was 13 of December 2018. Yeah, I mean, what, what to say? Um, it was just very sudden and tragic. Uh, we were hoping to have a more hopeful life finally, to you know, being together again after being separated for for two years. But I kind of, yeah, tried to get the best of. Well, at least we did have those last three months together and I, you know, I cherish those three months very dearly and, yeah, so we end up staying in Turkey for four months just for my daughter finish her school.
Speaker 1:My husband was Turkish, from Germany, so we decided also to do the burial in Turkey. So, of course, you can imagine, there were a lot of administrative things that had to be done. And, yeah, and it was at that point that we decided then to leave Turkey. And the question was where do we go next? And, asking my daughter, she said, yeah, let's go home. And I said, well, where is home for you? And she said, yeah, berlin, germany, of course. And Berlin was a place where we lived before we went to the Middle East. And those are really the solid years where my daughter had her memories with her father, and so for her it just made sense let's go back home. We still had an apartment in Berlin, so for her it just made sense let's go back home. We still had an apartment in Berlin, and yeah, so that's where we decided to go back to. I mean, I'm from.
Speaker 2:London.
Speaker 1:My family's in my mother's in London. So the other option would have been to go to have gone back to London and start a new life and future there, but it's it made sense to go back to Germany. You know the land of my husband. It was important also for my daughter's psychological stability to go back to a place where she could be supported. That's where all her friends were, for Parents were there, really standing by waiting to support us, and so it just made sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I still have a difficult relationship with Berlin. It's been what six years. But I mean, I'm here really for my daughter and it's clear that she is obviously in a better place now. She's stable, she's with her friends. She's still obviously going through her grief, so I'm here also to support her, to parent a grieving child. But of course I have my own grief to deal with and manage and I have my, let's say, army of support my friends. You know my family I don't have family here, but my family in Japan, also in London, and my brother in France. And the psychological support, yeah, the professional support that I get through grief therapy, which has been very helpful, yes, so I don't know if I should then go on to the next loss which, uh, four months after his death and I was diagnosed with then early breast cancer. This happened literally a week before we left Turkey to go back to Germany. So of course that shifted the whole focus on trying to make sure I get the right medical care treatment in time, because I needed to be operated relatively quickly, getting her into the school and then me into hospital to get my operation and to be treated. And then I had a relapse a year after and so, yeah, I basically had to lose one of my breasts on that third operation, unfortunately. And so, yeah, it just felt like a loss after loss really.
Speaker 1:And when I really look back and kind of rewind, you know, from my early childhood, I also realized, wow, there's also this sense of identity, of loss that I went through. My father actually left when I was five to go back to Japan to kind of support us financially. So I kind of grew up also fatherless, if you like. So the absence of that father figure was not there, although I did. You know, I was kind of used to, it was normal back then.
Speaker 1:But now, looking back at it, I kind of realized that, yeah, there have been, yeah, so many losses and and now this you know so it's been quite a hard, difficult, past, uh, six years. But, as I said, with all the help and the support I've had, with the work I've been also doing on myself through coaching, through music, therapy is also something I did. And then I mean now, you know, rediscovering Ikigai. Thanks to you kind of have a more hopeful future and I definitely feel I'm in a much, much better place now than a few years ago. So that's a little bit of my story.
Speaker 2:Thank you for sharing that to me and to our listeners. And yeah, loss it does. I'm sure this is not true, but all of our pain seems to come from so much loss a person aspect of our childhood, opportunity, our health and we have to somehow deal with it. You're actually part of a cohort we're going through now and we did have this discussion on, like what happens when someone loses their ikigai, and Kamiya did define it as a collapse of your value system. So, looking back now on those experiences, would that be A way to articulate what it's like when you have significant loss, that you seem to lose these values or not trust them anymore, or you don't know how to make decisions because of what are my values now?
Speaker 1:I think the values aspect of it has not really come until much later on. Aspect of it has not really come until much later on, I think, um, with this, two, let's say, quite traumatic events happening soon after the other, for me it was really about survival. It's pure survival got to get through life, got to get through each day and purely my ikigai source was for my daughter, survival for my daughter, for her future, to make sure that she's in a safe, well-taken care place. And so that was why the decision, even unwillingly, for me to come back to Berlin, to Germany, was very clear. It was really for the well-being of my daughter. Yeah, I mean choosing to kind of give up, you know, going overseas. Obviously I was not fit enough to go abroad again, so that was also kind of a huge loss career-wise and having to make the decision then to find a way to work from home and to make it work around my daughter, which is what I do now. So that's why I've kind of, you know, turned my job into staying connected with the aid sector but working from home, and that's why I work as a staff care career coach. So I kind of had to make these adjustments the way I really dealt with grief, and this is something that I've started to communicate more and more for some years now is the concept of kintsugi.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you could see this piece here. It's actually an issue a broken ceramic flower pot that I actually have quite strong memories of, and it fell off my windowsill a couple of years back into bits. And so I had the choice of well, I have quite sentimental feelings for this pot, I could just throw it away and just buy a new one, or I could actually try and mend it, you know, and see if it can be reused. And so kintsugi a term for those who don't know is it's a ceramic kind of, let's say, art artu in Japanese, of japanese, of repairing broken yeah, pottery or ceramic pieces, and it is normally repaired with glue stuck together. But normally when we repair something, we will use the invisible glue, right, because you don't want to show the cracks and where it's broken and you kind of seal it together so it becomes invisible. But the art of kintsugi comes from the word king, which means gold. Tsugi is joining, so joining with gold, and the beauty of this repair work is actually showing the cracks deliberately through the lines of golden glue, let's say it's glued together with sprinkled with golden powder on top. And so I decided to kind of use a kintsugi method to repair my piece. And it's wonderful I mean, it's still functional but I have it always in the background to remind me that, yeah, actually humans also can have this kintsugi effect.
Speaker 1:You know, we as humans, we can also be broken into bits, and I call it the cracks or the scars of life sometimes. And I think we all bear these scars of life, whether they are visible or invisible. I mean for me both. I have visible scars, obviously, from my surgeries. I have the invisible scars from all the grief and the trauma that I have lived.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, I guess it's that moment where I ask myself why I have a choice here. You know, do I allow myself to just fully grieve and just, you know, put myself in the, in the cupboard and live covered in dust? Or, you know, would I like to also maybe share my cracks of life and scars and make use of it and maybe share it with others and see if it can be beautified. Of course, it would never be beautified in the old, original way, but in a new, different way, and that's the beauty of the kintsugi art as well it's the broken bits being repaired and being restored and hopefully, you know, being reused again, and so that's kind of an analogy that I use more or less in everything I do today actually.
Speaker 2:It is a beautiful craft and my father-in-law's brother actually practices Kintsugi. So it's really interesting how the West gives new life to these words, or, you know, we internalise it, whereas maybe in Japan it's just an aesthetic of pottery like wabi-sabis, just an aesthetic of something that you know makes you feel a certain way about impermanence and fading beauty or something. And yeah, kintsugi is this idea of, I guess, embracing our life and if we have scars we don't have to hide them. They're a part of who we are and a part of what makes us whole through, I guess, the knocks, and sometimes we break and we have to pull ourselves together. So, yeah, japan has these beautiful crafts that can poetically express these ideas. So you actually posed this question when we were sharing notes for this episode. So I will ask it what meaning do you take from these losses today?
Speaker 1:I mean, grief has really taught me to really just live life to the full. I think that's what the grief expert, david Kessler, says you know grief fully, but also remember to live fully. And I think that really resonates with yeah, I have to also take those moments to grieve. I think I'm learning that grief is something that doesn't go away over time and then you kind of move on. No, not at all, it's not something that you move on from, it's something you move forward with. So I feel that my identity has completely changed since these events have happened. I think I'm a completely new person. I walk in the shadows, let's say, of my late husband with me and with all the decisions that I make. So, yeah, I mean, there's a complete transformation, I feel. And again it comes back to that mindset of choice and decision. You know, which way do I go? Do I choose to just sit in to grieve fully, or do I also then decide to live fully as well? And I chose to live. Obviously, I also chose to, yeah, maybe give myself a chance to maybe find new love again, because I know this is what my husband would want. So it takes time, obviously, to process all this, but I have my good days, I have my bad days everybody but I feel that I do have to be extra aware and intentional also with my decisions to make sure that I don't kind of, you know, spiral down. And I guess my anchor really is my daughter. You know I want to stay healthy, stay fit. For her, I also want to kind of leave a legacy and also show her that you know, you can still live your life fully even in this deep sadness of losing, you know, your father. You live for the purpose, and if living for your father or for my husband is what brings meaning, then absolutely it's worth it, and so that's kind of the meaning I take.
Speaker 1:And so I'm living quite intensively and things are happening to me and I've been doing crazy things I think I would have never done before if I was just, you know, happily in my old life, in my marriage, and so, yeah, I'm really embracing, let's say, these events. I take it as a curse and a blessing. A curse that it's very unfortunate that this happened, but because of that I'm blessed to be able to find the strength and the energy to do all these other things I would have never done. And this is a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the message I also share to many people or to clients who come to me to say that, yeah, life is truly very short. We're living in a world of chaos and, who knows, this could be our last day. We could be struck with illness. Somebody in our close family could also be taken away anytime, any day, and that's been the biggest life lesson for me to really embrace life as if it really could be your last day. So, yeah, I'm doing that, so I'm really reaching out to people, to those maybe I never had a chance to apologize or to say to the people, really say to my mum more and more that I, you know, I love her, which is a very non-Japanese way of expressing your love and emotion, but I do it anyway, because it's a life without regret that I don't want.
Speaker 1:So that's a little bit also the message I share to my audience and my community. Well, that's a life without regret that I don't want. So that's a little bit also the message I share to my audience and my community.
Speaker 2:Well, it's a very meaningful and powerful message and I think you do it very well. So, yeah, I'm really grateful that our paths crossed and I knew you had been on one of my webinars and you'd also invested in the summit. So we go back longer than I realize. So thank you for being interested in what I do, and we'll talk about all the crazy stuff that you do now with your life a little bit later. But yesterday we were talking about our values, and one that came up for you was bravery, and this is perhaps a value and strength of yours. I think it is. I think you're very brave, resilient, and we touched on this briefly. But, yeah, you're obviously brave in the work you've done in the past and the work that you do now, so I think it's a value you've probably had for a long time. So, yeah, have you always had this value or did you develop it with life experience more and more?
Speaker 1:I'm laughing because it's yeah, it's. Thank you for that question. I think it's a brilliant question. It's really has. Uh, it did really make me think and I think my answer is it goes back again to my mother. I think I get this from my mother. I mean, when you think about a woman in her, what, what was she mid 30s, late 30s, to leave Japan on her own? This is a conventional times where you know, know arranged marriage had to happen.
Speaker 1:I mean, she went against, you know, everybody in Japan to go to England, and that takes courage and bravery and then, yeah, then arriving to England with not much English, with very little money, and then just, you know, building this life and just, I guess, being resilient with whatever comes her way and so just remarkable and I think I get that from her maybe yeah, and also just growing up, hearing her stories and looking up to my mom, you know, being a single mom, full-time working mom as well, but always being available for us and, yeah, just an amazing role model for me and I think I've kind of taken that on also as early on. You know, living both in Japan and the UK. That also takes resilience and adjustment and, yeah, I guess I had to take some courageous steps as well. And, yeah, I guess I had to take some courageous steps as well. Yeah, I mean one thing I didn't, uh, I wanted to mention also, which is a phenomena that's becoming more and more well known now, is the third culture kid.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you know this term, nick. It's a phenomena of kids who, or families who, often move around. It happens with military family, diplomats or, you know, let's say, expat families, who of children who are born in a country other than their parents passport country, let's say. And then you move again, and then you kind of find your identity with whoever you find locally, and then with the multiple moves you kind of, yeah, lost your sense of identity and your belonging, and so this is something I guess didn't exist back then in the 80s, and I guess for my parents as well they weren't aware of this phenomena and also the emotional, maybe struggles that my brother and I had moving between UK and Japan, and I mean it's much more well now.
Speaker 1:There was a much bigger community of TCK families and there's much more information being shared about how you can better support your children. So it's kind of a shame that my mother, let's say my parents, didn't have that to support us. But being a mother now and kind of having a TCK child myself, I mean my daughter, you know she's Japanese, british, say, turkish, but she grew up in Kosovo, in the Balkans, and she grew up thinking that she was from Kosovo and unfortunately, yeah, a big struggle. I think that can be an experience by families and children who do move around. But yeah, going back to my mother, I mean she didn't have that kind of, let's say, knowledge or wasn't informed about the tck phenomena but, um, yeah, she supported us in in the best that she could, obviously and uh, and she continues to inspire me and yeah, so the resilience that she's taught me.
Speaker 1:I pass it now on now to my daughter, because we've moved also, obviously, in many countries and I can see how she is very much independent, much more, let's say, than, let's say, other kids of her age, and the courage as well. So I think it goes hand in hand with being resilient, kind of learning to face your fears. So it's about also being vulnerable and accepting that vulnerability and also choosing to, yeah, do something about it, to overcome it, rather than running away from your fears. And that's something I'm trying to cultivate more and more, especially now since my husband died and with the illness, it's just taught me that, yeah, in order to survive, you've got to be resilient, you've got to be courageous, you've got to be resilient, you've got to be courageous. And if I can do that in different ways, then maybe I can also again share this to others and help others who may be struggling in a similar situation like me, wow.
Speaker 2:Well, there you go. I'm always inspired by people, but I do seem to stumble upon very inspiring women through Ikigai Tribe, so we should do a shout-out to your mother. I don't know if she'll listen to this episode, but that's great. You see her as this inspiring figure and, yeah, I was going to jokingly say, man, she really must have loved the Beatles too. So, basically, leave everything and go to London with so much uncertainty and not being fluent in the language, and make a life there, a successful life, both family and business, and despite all those challenges.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's inspiring. So let's shift gears and talk about the things you do now that give you, I guess, a sense of Ikigai, and this includes, I guess, what, what you? I think you framed it like this, I'm not sure ikigai, bucket list challenges or just bucket list challenges. So would you like to share your most recent bucket list adventure?
Speaker 1:well, uh, if I may, I just maybe kind of set the context of how this all happened. Yeah, I guess this bucket list challenge really started a year or two after my husband's death of just being ready to really live life fully again, but in a quite intense manner, because I think time was also a thing. You know, it was a big theme in my life that, yeah, we don't have so much time much in life. Who knows how much time we have, especially, you know, if we're ill, then eventually our health gives in. And so I was just in a very playful, creative space and I just came up with I have all this time. Now. What were all the things I said I always wanted to do?
Speaker 1:And it started with surfing and I thought I was in my end 40s and I thought, oh, if I was young again, I would love to, I would have loved to have done. Surfing was always something that I was saying to myself and there was a moment I thought, well, you know, why not try? Okay, I am in my late 40s, maybe I can prove it to myself and to the other late 40s that it is possible. So it started with a surfing challenge and out of all the places, I chose Denmark, the coldest place, to go surfing, with a very thick wetsuit obviously. So I decided just to try it. You know, not a huge challenge, it's just to just to try the experience. And so I just took a half a day surfing course and you know, I was. I was never really got on the surfboard, but it was just a whole experience. I mean, I just love water. I've been a swimmer nearly all my life. I just amateur enthusiastic swimmer since a child. And so I was just open and curious and just started to try surfing and I did it. It was great. I still go surfing. I still can't stand on the board, it's okay, but I just love that whole experience of going in the water with the board waiting for the waves. It's just taking in that moment of surfing.
Speaker 1:And that's where it all started and I thought, well, it would be great if I could do a challenge, one challenge each year. And so the following year it was when the pandemic hit, so, if you remember, we were very much indoors and there was just a moment where, yeah, I just needed to move. So I love dancing and so somehow I came up with this insane idea of doing a flash mob. If you know what a flash mob is, it's one of those public dance surprises when one starts dancing in the street out in the public and the second one joins, the third one joins, and yeah. So I just chose a very upbeat, dancing physical song. Yeah, I kind of wanted to dedicate it to raising awareness about breast cancer actually. So it was a kind of my message to say, yeah, thanks to those families and the professionals who supported me and this song and dance is for you. So that was kind of our message. And so I created t-shirts, my daughter actually created the logo and I got a crowd of parents, their kids. It was just amazing and we were all indoors because it was uh, covid and uh, and we met weekly and we choreographed some dance, uh moves and I kind of decided to bring it out in the open. We weren't really uh, allowed, but then I, with a very much smaller group, we actually went out into a park, an open space park, and that's where we met for the first time with all the other dancers and we did our dance out in the open and it was all videoed. And so, yeah, it was awesome, it was just fantastic.
Speaker 1:And then, yeah, as the years went by, I was stretching more my challenge. So I did a busking challenge before I turned 50. And so, as I mentioned earlier, music really helped me during my healing and my therapy, and so I picked up my guitar and started to take guitar lessons through my cancer therapy. Breathing work is also very, very important for the physical healing. So I was doing quite a lot of breath work and singing had really helped for me. So I thought bring the guitar and the singing together. Maybe I could bring this again out in the open and do a busking challenge and just sit there and play music until I raise 10 euros. And so I did that a week before my 50th birthday.
Speaker 1:So I did that and that was awesome. And then, um, yeah, the year after I did a mini triathlon with my daughter. And the last challenge is something I had to really do a lot of practice on. It's free diving. So free diving for those who don't know it's very much different from scuba diving. It's basically diving without the oxygen tank. It's diving with your own breath.
Speaker 1:So that was kind of a challenge I always wanted to do. It wasn't so much about challenging myself, going you know deep down to how many meters, it was more the whole experience, because I had heard, deep, free diving is also learning out, being very relaxed and being calm. It's also a lot about breath work. It's also about trusting your own breath and, yeah, trusting your physical body and the mind, because there's a lot of it is a mind game as well in the water, where it can obviously pose as much risk and threat. And so I kind of was up for that challenge, to be guided, obviously, by a very good uh instructor. So I did that, yeah, just a few weeks ago and, um, very pleased. But what I do want to say, nick, is, uh, it's not just only doing these uh challenges for the sake of the challenges, it's just really the whole journey, all the learnings, the lessons, the you know, encountering different new people, the community yeah, really learning about facing your fears, how to overcome it.
Speaker 1:For me, I had to do a lot of stuff out in the open and the public. I consider myself quite shy, but I had to learn to also be out in the open to do my dance move, to do my singing, and that's where the skill of courage really came in. More and more, the more I was able to feel comfortable singing outdoors, the more I was more comfortable dancing outdoors. That just gave me an even more stronger sense of courage and with that, obviously, you build more self-belief, you build more self-confidence and I thought, wow, wouldn't that be amazing if I could then also share this with others. And so my Ikigai program is kind of. You know, we talk about meaningful relationships, meaningful jobs in Ikigai, but for me it's about cultivating meaningful challenges through Ikigai, and that's kind of what I do in my Ikigai workshops.
Speaker 2:Love it Very inspiring. Do in my ikigai workshops. Love it very inspiring.
Speaker 2:I did watch a documentary on free diving and it was pretty confronting. I think it was dealing with people who were trying to break a depth record with one breath and I mean part of it looked amazing like you have this moment where you're surrounded by water, you're in this calm state and I'm sure you have this moment where you're surrounded by water, you're in this calm state and I'm sure you have these kind of moments of clarity or very unique experience, but then you have to obviously get back to the surface. But yeah, it was sort of fascinating how I guess you know being in the element of water and probably hyper aware, and there's this incredible risk that I guess adds in some way or some part to the experience to feel that you're alive, I guess, to feel this new way of living, even if it's for a couple of minutes. How long can you hold your breath now? It is a couple of minutes, isn't it? Yeah, how long can you hold your breath now? It is a couple of minutes, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, my record is two minutes and 30 seconds, but that comes from really a lot of practices where I started from 25 seconds, 40 seconds. So it does take a lot of practice and preparation. But the beauty of freediving is really it's about really learning to be calm and collected is how I describe it. It's really 80% is really preparation. It's like really bringing your mind in a place where you can feel very relaxed, in tune with your body, with yourself, trusting yourself, and only then you can then really work on taking that deep, lost breath and holding it. And once you are able to do that, yeah, it's an amazing feeling and I really try to use that analogy more and more, also in my work as a coach, where I have clients who have come because of the world I mean chaos that's happening in the world right now with a lot of job losses.
Speaker 1:So, of course, as a career coach, it's a season where I have clients approaching me for needing support to look for another job or changing careers, and I always will use this analogy of you know, let's try to invest in that time of you know, be connected with yourself, come to a place where you can really feel calm and collected, because that's only then when you can have a wider perspective or what, what is around you, because I guess when you're working, as you know, we're kind of on the hamster wheel.
Speaker 1:All we see is work, work, work, work. And that's what we're used to, that's what we're comfortable with and obviously once we're off that hamster wheel we just want to get back on it. So there's a sense of urge, a sense of panic, and that's why's why I want to catch the clients and say, well, we have to learn to kind of be in a space of being a bit more calm and collected and really think of the different options, rather than trying to find another job to go back on that hamster wheel. So I take really a lot of learning from this freediving. Absolutely, it's an amazing experience.
Speaker 2:I do love the idea, this idea of what challenge would really make you come alive, and obviously something new that you haven't done before, especially in water, like this element. You know that we're made from that's part of nature and the whole. I guess it's very Shigeki, the whole stimulation of it. So I'd be interested to learn what your next one will be. But we'll move on.
Speaker 1:What about you, nick? What would be? What's a good challenge or something that you've always wanted?
Speaker 2:to do. Well, something that was a challenge I it's it's still work related, but it was this something I was always telling my Ikigai tribe members I was going to do and that was to do a retreat. And when I told them it didn't feel real just like a pie in the sky kind of thing, and I kind of thought I'm sort of lying to myself every time I say this, you know, some years ago. And then last year I just thought, nah, I'm going to do this. And I went to Japan three times to really prepare for it. And I was very lucky, I have a very good friend who helped me plan it all.
Speaker 2:But it was months and months of preparation. I almost did the retreat myself just to experience it and ensure it would be something valuable. And then, yeah, you can only do so much preparation and then you do it. And so there was all this uncertainty and I thought, can I do this? Like I'm kind of safe behind the computer screen and I can have all my slides and all these resources, but bringing people together for a unique experience and then booking everything, organ organizing all the meals, everything, and then trusting it. So that was, you know, something new, a challenge, and it was like a challenge just to get it to be ready and then meeting all these people who I knew but hadn't met in person, and then spending a week with them.
Speaker 2:And yeah, you know there was obviously some challenges and all the logistics and everything, but it was a great success and it made me think, oh, people really matter to me and being with them in person seems to make me come alive, so that was something. Yeah, that really was a highlight and I thought, oh, this is potentially where the future of the business is too. But, yeah, I'm starting to think, oh, what about a challenge just for me, some sort of new challenge? So you've inspired me, so I'll give that some thought. I'll get back to you. So, thank you. So, related to this, what makes life worth living and, I guess, having these moments is you shared something special with me that you and your mother are reading through Miiko Kamiya's book Ikigai ni Tsuite together online. Obviously, your mother is in England, so it sounds like that's something you're really enjoying and it's, you know, perhaps even bringing you closer together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, this actually started during the pandemic.
Speaker 1:Rather than just having exchange calls over video, I thought maybe really use this time I mean, she lives on her own in London and of course she had her restrictions.
Speaker 1:So I thought maybe create a way where we can interact, where she can actually talk to somebody, because there could be days where she would not even talk to anybody.
Speaker 1:So I kind of created sort of yeah, over how many weeks I think was over two months or so we talked about first it was it was talking about her life, I think, because I always talked about wanting to write a book about her life, because I just find it just fascinating a woman of her time and she's very humble and modest and says, oh who would want to read about my life? And so I kind of suggested maybe writing a book together. And so it started with these interviews, of having weekly interviews about her life and I had created different chapters of, I mean, her name is Yoshi, so Yoshi as a child, yoshi as the elder sister, yoshi as the daughter, eventually a mother, a working, you know woman, immigrant arriving into England, you know, yoshi as a wife and the Yoshi today, sort of thing. So it's a whole video interviews over, captured over 10, 10 hours, and the topic of Ikigai actually really did come up a few times.
Speaker 1:And then that's when I was inspired by you, nick, about this australian guy who was, uh, trying to create this movement to correct the real meaning of ikigai, and then that kind of led into this project of um, yeah, mom, do you know this? It's called Ikigai Nitsuite by Kamiya Miyako, and she knew it immediately. She says, yes, of course, I read it. I even have a copy of my bookshelf now. And then recently she just told me about her first encounter to Ikigai. She told me she was 17 years old in Japan and that was the first moment where she realized what is Ikigai for me. And she told me that her ikigai at 17 years old was to help people. Wow, yeah, to help people. And then she had this vision of eventually going overseas, going abroad, maybe working for a charity, working as a volunteer. And back then she said there was the un university school in tokyo, in oyama, and she had always, yeah, she had wished that she could study there so that she could, you know, move abroad and maybe eventually work for the un as a diplomat or so.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, again, this is a time where she was the eldest in the family, her mother. So my grandmother was was quite ill. She had to take care the family. There was not enough money, and so she kind of gave up the idea. But she shared this beautiful ikigai moment with me recently, when she was 17, and then I thought, wow, how amazing that actually what you were not able to achieve is somehow being the soul has been transported to me and you know I've been doing exactly what you were not able to achieve has somehow been the soul has been transported to me and you know I've been doing exactly what you had, you know, dreamt of, without me even knowing. And that, wow, wow, that was just very, very, very powerful and, um, yeah, so we spoke about Kamiya Miyako's book and then I got myself a copy and then I realized it was very difficult.
Speaker 1:As you know, japanese is not really my first language and yet alone it's very difficult Japanese. And so I thought, well, this could be a good opportunity for me to learn Japanese all over again, and why not do it over this book and as an opportunity to create meaningful conversations with my mum by reading the book. So we kind of started, still on chapter two or three right now, because it does take a bit of time. I've downloaded the audio version because somehow maybe I can take it in better when I listen to it.
Speaker 1:And yeah, we've kind of stalled at the moment, but the topic of Ikigai is still in our family. We talk about it also. She also shares about what I'm, my interest in Ikigai with her own family in japan, so it's kind of been a topic when we come all together. Yeah, and before I forget, she actually also told me back in those days because you know kami and miyoko that we were living in switzerland and she, she had a brother and his brother was actually teaching french on nhk that day. Did French on NHK, did you?
Speaker 2:know that.
Speaker 1:So he was teaching French through singing and it was an NHK program and that my mother had always wanted to learn French as well. So she actually came across Camille Mirko's brother on a TV program where he is teaching French through singing. And still today, my mom can still sing Sur le pont d'Avignon on y danse, because that was a song that Camille Amieko's brother was teaching.
Speaker 2:Wow, I did not know that yeah.
Speaker 1:And she also recently shared that with me as well, and then she later then realized that with me as well, and then she later then, yeah, realised that he was actually Kameneko's brother because of course, they spoke fluent French, living in Switzerland and so, yeah, so Ikigai has been pretty much in my mum's life early on, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean that's kind of rare because I mean a lot of Japanese don't really use the word. I can't really recall hearing the word that much in Japan, where I'd hear certainly like yarigai, yarigai ga aru all the time, like almost every week. So it's good to hear that you and your mom and extended family discuss it, because it makes you think, ah, it is alive among Japanese and in Japan. I kind of wish it was more. It's such an important thing Like why do we live? What makes our life feel worth living? Yeah, we only have this one short life, so we should make the most of it.
Speaker 2:Oddly, she had a very unconventional life, but also a lot of pain and loss and a life that would suggest she certainly lacked Ikigai. So maybe that's what allowed her to write on the subject. But what do you think of her work? Because I kind of think it's like wow, it's pretty much positive psychology 35 years ahead of the positive psychology movement, and she was writing on all these topics of life satisfaction, change and growth, purpose, self-actualization. So amazing that she was writing on these subjects, sort of 35 years ahead of these fathers of positive psychology five years ahead of Lee's fathers, of positive psychology.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess it's again, sadly, one of those hidden figures that don't get talked about enough.
Speaker 1:I'm yet a woman as well, so I think it's never too late and it's good that we are talking about it now, and I think it would be great if there could be a movie about her life, because absolutely it's very inspiring and I think even to this day, many people could be inspired by her work and her love and her hope for life for people who are completely desperate and wanting to end their lives and going through very difficult illness.
Speaker 1:And yet having that belief and that love for others is really inspiring. And yet having that belief and that love for others is really inspiring and that's very much, I think, what I do in my work as well as a, you know, living with compassion, empathy for others, and if you can help just one person, I mean that's the return is also very rewarding as well. So I can somehow feel that her, yeah, her soul is still living and I guess we kind of have to find a way to, yeah, make that alive and make her name, yeah, more known, I guess, more to the world, through maybe translating her work in English, making a movie, talking about it more. I mean, yeah, I think that her soul will never die.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. We need to definitely get her some recognition and it would be nice to also I mean, I almost I mean the book's very difficult, but you'd hope it would be a book schools might give university students or it's probably too early for high school students because it's such a difficult book to read but at least summarise it and say there was this inspiring woman and she wrote this incredible book and then she went on to write quite a few more books afterwards, but she also had this incredibly inspiring life. Yeah, back then in the 40s, 50s and 60s, where I guess most Japanese women could either be a teacher or a nurse or something, she was a psychiatrist, linguist, translator, interpreter, professor. Then all those things didn't seem to matter to her. She really wanted to write so fascinating, write so fascinating, and she was even a tutor to the former Empress Michiko and was an interpreter for the Tokyo war crimes trial. So she was like an absolute rock star.
Speaker 2:We don't know, no one really knows her. So I'm all for getting her name out there, and I'm sure you mentioned her in your workshops and the coaching you offer. So would you like to touch on, yeah, what you offer for your own Ikigai coaching?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, what I do, nick, is I pass on your message. I mean, I am a follower of your movement, of your tribe, and so your name is also mentioned, thank you. And it really just all started also with the same feeling I had with you, just feeling very uncomfortable with this Venn diagram that's just been completely misused here, and feeling, yeah, the calling is, yeah, we need to correct this, it is being misunderstood, misunderstood. So that is where it all starts from and I, I really, yes, I take on the message that you share to others as part of your movement and spreading the word. And then then, of course, then I share my own experience being japanese, my understanding of ikigai, and then showing, yeah, sharing my ikigai sources and how that's collectively become. Then my ikigai bucket. Then showing, yeah, showing my ikigai sources and how that's collectively become.
Speaker 1:then my ikigai bucket list challenge and, yeah, and saying that, yes, it is possible, but um, it's just I love this quote, and maybe I've got also this quote, uh, from you as well, on what is ikigai, and I think it's saori okada who says yes, ikigai is really about meaningful challenges when life is hard love it and that was so relevant.
Speaker 1:It was just so prompt, on time, with what you know what was going on in my life and, yeah, being able then to turn this, you know, really tap into ikigai to do all the things that I was doing was was just something that I felt I needed to to share to others because because I just knew that I'm not alone in this, there are many others who are grieving, many others who are going through loneliness, going through a lot of fears in life. You know, with this digital age, with this global chaos that's going on. So, who knows, maybe Ikigai can save our humanity today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we certainly need it more, and you're right, we are living in a chaotic world that seemingly can't get more chaotic, but somehow does so yeah, so I kind of, I kind of elaborate, so I really go into my experience, because I don't kind of want to impose, to say, you know, this is what you need to do, but I just try to share my story and try to show you know how Ikigai, the Ikigai path, has kind of helped me or is helping me.
Speaker 1:Let's say it's still a journey. I talk about it still as a path on the journey and then hopefully inspire others to maybe try it out themselves. Yeah, I mean for me. I mean when we talk about values or talk about life skills, I mean what has really shown up for me is the feeling of being playful, and by being playful you kind of have to let go. So kind of letting go also means, yeah, kind of the process of letting go also means, yeah, learning to to kind of let go of your fears, and by doing that you, yeah, you become then playful, you become creative and then when you're in the space of being curious, then you kind of can allow yourself to be stretched a bit, and then that's where the challenge comes in with maybe I could push myself to do a bit more and try out, but without taking it too seriously.
Speaker 1:For me, really doing it in a playful manner has to be always present, because otherwise it could just give me sleepless nights, but if I can walk away with a smile or a laugh and joke about it, and so humor, I mean if there's one thing my husband left as legacy, it's his humor.
Speaker 1:He was a very, very humorous person and just never took life seriously. Of course he took it serious, but he was able to kind of deal with an argument with with humor and laughter, with a joke and and for me that's something I really want to take on and it works and it works. And it works If it can uplift you and make you feel lighter from a very heavy situation, then, yeah, it can take you far. So I'm just kind of practicing all this, let's say, and trying to be very intentional and documenting it and then see if I'm able then to use this to share and to help others. So I guess, yeah, I'm kind of living the legacy of my mom as well, who wanted to help others when she was 17. And that was her ikigai, and so you know, I take that as my calling today.
Speaker 2:Well, it sounds like both you and your mother have helped many people and that's ongoing and I'd certainly like to one day who knows, somehow collaborate with you and do a workshop or something together, maybe in Japan or somewhere in Europe. So, yeah, there's all this possibility. So that's something I often think about. There's all this possibility and you never know, one thought and one decision can radically change your life and I'll never forget the night. I thought, like screw it, I'm going to build a website, I'm going to interview, I'm going to try and interview Professor Hasegawa Like I'll try and get this man to come onto the podcast. And yeah, the next day I was just like got to come up with a name gotnikigaitribecom built the website in a day. I was just like got to come up with a name, got NickyGuyTribecom built the website in a day, sent an email and within two days he said, yeah, I'll join the podcast.
Speaker 2:And very courageous, because he can't really speak English at all. So I admired his courage and I'll be so grateful and it's changed my life, and here I am talking to you, you know, five years later. So one decision can really, when it feels right, when you feel your intuition is saying do this, yeah, you've really got to take a risk and and you never know where it can lead and I have this amazing network of friends. My life is meaningful. You know, this is my Ikigai, the work that I do. So, yeah, be playful, take a risk. All these things you talk of can change your life and, I guess, make life you know feel worth living. So, with all that in mind, we should probably end and touch on your three Ms of Ikigai, so would you like to share them?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, the three M's. The three M's that I tried to do as an Ikigai practitioner is music, movement and mindfulness, because it's really these three things that have helped me through through my own journey, through my own healing, through finding myself again. And yeah, music, as as I mentioned early, was the first kind of therapy I came in contact with after my second surgery, cancer surgery and and that was just amazing and it was just expressing through your body, different parts of your body as breath work taking, experimenting with different instruments and sounds. And yeah, I mean I was a self-taught guitar player back in my university days, um, but since then, yeah, I kind of invested time and took some guitar lessons.
Speaker 1:I love singing everywhere in the shower. I'm like a purebred karaoke. I mean, some people call me june kashi okay, because I always that could be my future brand name. I think I need to open a karaoke parlor called Kashioke Karaoke because it just brings me joy. It brings me joy. I bring a karaoke set during my overseas assignment and I do a stress management workshops through karaoke, like release your voice, singing, and man, it works. And so, yeah, singing and music has really helped me and I try to, yeah, do that more and more with my daughter as well, because I know that will help her as well. So she loves to sing. She played the trumpet at and now she's slowly also picking up my guitar. And it would be amazing if we could do, if we could both now busk on the streets and sing and play music. So music is really something that would always stay with me.
Speaker 1:So movement, yeah, I love swimming, so I try to regularly go to the swimming pool. We live near a lake here in Berlin, so in the summer I, we live near a lake here in Berlin, so in the summer I go swimming outdoors and a beautiful forest. I literally left the city to move to the suburbs here to be close to the nature, and I'm literally, yeah, five minutes away from the woods and the forest and that's kind of my spiritual sanctuary, I'll call it. I go into the woods every day for an hour and a half for a good walk, and that's where the mindfulness also comes in, because I'm not the type who can just sit cross-legged and do Zen meditation. I meditate when I swim, I meditate when I walk, and then I'm really able to get quite creative. I can really tune into, yeah, my voice and my feelings, and so I really try to make sure I have all those three every day and, yeah, it helps me, it really does help me.
Speaker 2:There we go. So I like the three amps, so I love music too. So, yeah, I struggle when I don't exercise, so I always do a little bit every day and I think it's crucial to have mindfulness or that kind of quiet time where you try and stop all your thoughts and think hang on, what am I thinking? What am I feeling? What's a better question to ask me at this moment, because most of the time we're dealing with chaos our own internal chaos.
Speaker 1:So, and then the external chaos, yeah and I notice also, the first first thing when I wake up in the morning is when I'm very fresh and very much myself. And so I I heard this term from somebody, somebody else meditation, so you can meditate in bed. So I often also wake up having, yeah, time to meditate, and then I also have a journal nearby as well. So I love to journal and it's all good, it's all good stuff. It's just a way to just to connect with oneself and it's cultivating right. So it's a practice. And without doing that, then of course you, you know we'll be lost in all the chaotic translation that's happening around us.
Speaker 2:So well, june, thank you so much for sharing your life with me and our listeners today, and the lessons and your inspiration and your positivity. It's a real joy to connect with you and, yeah, as I said before, look forward to collaborating with you somehow in the future. So thank you for your time today.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Nick. Thank you for having me Take care.
Speaker 2:My pleasure.