The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Exploring Fourth Spaces: Where Personal Growth and Meaning Meet with Tomoe Ueyama and Gloria Tam
Where is your place to cultivate meaningful connections and personal growth?
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Tomoe Ueyama and Gloria Tam to explore how fourth spaces can help people build authentic relationships and embark on a journey of self-discovery.
There is also another layer of hidden meaning mean product. So mint originates from mentors and interns, so reflecting the belief that adults should remain lifelong interns, maintaining a fresh mindset and curiosity, while also serving as mentors, sharing their wisdom with younger generations. This embodies our commitment to lifelong learning and intergenerational growth.
Speaker 2:Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom. My guests today on this episode of the Ikigai podcast are Tomoe Ueyama and Gloria Tam, the founders of Project Mint. Project Mint helps mid to late career professionals redefine their paths by discovering their personal purpose and ikigai, embracing sustainable careers. Their approach has guided 150 alumni with a 70% successful transitioning rate, helping these people transition to more meaningful roles. Their adult education model, featured in the New York Times, has gained international acclaim. So welcome to the podcast, tomoa and Gloria. Thank you for joining me today.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Nick. Thank you so much, Nick, for having us.
Speaker 2:My pleasure. So let's start off with a自己紹介, a self-introduction from both of you. So maybe we'll start with you, Tomoe, yeah sure.
Speaker 1:So, hi everyone. I am Tomoe Ueyama, one of the co-founders of Project Mint, and Project Mint is a community aimed at empowering mature professionals to redefine their careers and lives through finding purpose and ikigai, and I am passionate about reimagining leadership and fostering purpose in an asian society like japan, where demographic shifts pose unique challenges and opportunities. And just a quick description of project mint, uh, because I'm sure quite a lot of people don't know about project mint. So so, yeah, so Project MIN is a learning community where adults of all ages can rediscover their purpose and transition into more fulfilling roles in society. It provides a space for meaning making through intentional gatherings and open-ended dialogues. We encourage explorations of life's big questions without pressure for definitive answers, while fostering authentic connections and shared experience. And yeah, also, I met Gloria when I was in my master's program in the United States and she helped me a lot to develop this purpose-driven leadership development course. So, yeah, let's hear from Gloria as well.
Speaker 2:Fantastic.
Speaker 3:Sure? Hi everyone. This is Gloria Gloria Tam. I am originally from Hong Kong, from Asia, and now based in the US. So with Tomoe we co-founded Project Mint to help professionals find their purpose in Ikigai, and it all started in Japan, but we're also trying to evangelize this right to become a more global movement. In addition to Project Mint, I also lead the course design function at Harvard University's Division of Continual Education, so my team there supports 300 plus faculty at Harvard UCE in creating engaging online learning for thousands of lifelong learners. A little bit about me over the last two decades I have taken on leadership roles with different institutions like Boston Consulting Group or with World Health Organization and really helping them to build their lifelong learning unit and programs. So beyond that, I also love teaching. Once I was a college professor. My favorite topics are leadership, especially on purpose-driven leadership, on systems thinking and managing complexity. So my passion is really to help people unlock their potential and help them find meaning in their journeys.
Speaker 2:Wow. So that's amazing, so very inspiring to hear from both of you and these themes of lifelong learning and finding purpose and meaningful conversation and authentic connections. So these are the things I love and I strongly relate them all to Ikigai. So it's a real joy to have you on the podcast and I'll share how I stumbled upon actually Tomoe. Through LinkedIn, I saw a post about an article you wrote, tomoe for Forbes and it was essentially about this concept of fourth place and I guess the title in English would be Beyond the Third Place, what is the New Space Known as the Fourth Place? And when I read that article after some help with ChatGPT translating it, I thought, oh, this article seems to be touching on the concept of ibasho, which is a sub-theory of Ikigai. It's like the social aspect of Ikigai. So congratulations on your article. Do you want to touch on the meanings of third and fourth place?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, nick, and thank you so much for reaching out to me after reading my article on Forbes. So the concept of the third place to begin with was introduced in 1989 by American sociologist Ray Odenberg in his book the Great Good Place. He describes the third place as a vital space for democracy and civic engagement. Third place is, as you know, a social environment outside of home, so home is the first place and work is the second place. So third place can be places such as cafes, parks or community centers where people gather, connect and engage in informal interactions, fostering a sense of community and belonging. And the fourth place goes deeper than third place it is a collective space that enables meaning making and self-renewal or self-transformation. So the fourth place is not simply a comfortable space like the third place. The fourth place is not simply a comfortable space like the third place. It is actually a challenging environment that embraces uncertainty and diverse perspectives, encouraging deep thought and personal growth.
Speaker 1:The concept of the fourth place does not have a universally recognized origin or a single person who coined it. Unlike the third place coined by Rain Oldenburg, it has emerged as a modern adaption of or extension of the third place, focusing on deeper connection, self-renewal and collective meaning making. There is a community called sf commons, based in san francisco, mostly with generation z people forming this kind of community and drawing on the activities and insights of those pioneering this concept. The characteristics of the fourth place can be summarized in seven key points. So number one is a place for meaning making. Two is intentional programs. Three is a space of non-judgmental empathy. Four is a place without answers. Five is respecting individual choices. Six is an environment without charismatic leaders and, lastly, seven is sustainable connections. So the fourth place represents a collective shift towards spaces that foster deep personal and communal exploration, allowing individuals to find new ways of connecting with themselves and others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love this idea. I really like that idea of an environment without charismatic leaders and that there can be this place without that. That I guess the whole makes the leadership, or the whole make the meaning of the place. And, yeah, also the idea it challenges people perhaps to become themselves and they can explore questions and really cool concepts. So I definitely started thinking, oh, this is very much related to Ibexol, a place for meaning making. So do you want to offer some examples, because it's probably slightly different to Ibexol as well. So, yeah, would you like to offer some examples of a fourth place?
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, so I think Project Mint, our organization, naturally embodies the concept of a fourth place by fostering a community where individuals can explore their identities, aspirations and life transitions beyond traditional work and social structures.
Speaker 1:For example, project Mint provides a space for individuals, particularly mid-career and late-career professionals, to redefine their purpose and explore what truly matters to them. And explore what truly matters to them. Through guided discussions and shared experiences, members engage in self-reflection and craft new narratives for their personal and professional lives. And Project MING community is built on trust and psychological safety, allowing participants to share uncertainties and personal challenges without fear of judgment. By normalizing career reinvention and midlife transitions, it creates an inclusive environment where everyone feels seen and heard. Rather than prescribing fixed solutions or career paths, project Mint encourages exploration and curiosity. Participants are not given one-size-fits-all advice, but are instead guided to discover their own insights through dialogue and reflection. So, beyond one-time programs, project Mint cultivates long-term relationships among members as well. So our alumni remain connected through ongoing discussions, events and collaborations, ensuring that the sense of belonging and support extends well beyond the initial engagement.
Speaker 2:Love it. I think I want to become a member of Mint, so maybe I will if and when I move back to Japan, but it does very much sound like an Ibasho. So what do you think?
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you, nick, and you're anytime welcome to join our community whenever you come to Japan. And that's a great question. I think Ibasho and fourth place know that you know explain the meaning of Ibasho. So Ibasho means I means being, and basho means place. So the meaning of Ibasho is simply just, you know, place for being.
Speaker 1:So important aspect of Ibasho, in my view, is that it has two dimensions. One is in Ibasho, people have feeling included through contribution. So people often find a sense of belonging in Ibasho by actively doing something for others, whether through a specific role or responsibility within the community. And second is feeding included, simply by being so. At the same time, ibasho allows people to feel accepted without the need to contribute. Just by being present at their authentic selves in the community, they are acknowledged and valued by those around them. So Ibasho can be very broad, but our fourth place has intentional elements. So it's a space for meaning-making, non-judgmental empathy and respecting individual choices and it provides sustainable connections. But it's more like. Fourth place is a guided, you know, facilitation. So it has to be intentional. But Ibasho, on the other hand, can include all these aspects, but it doesn't necessarily have to be intentional or structured.
Speaker 1:In Japan, ibasho is simply a place where you feel safe, accepted and like you belong, even if there's no deep conversation or purpose behind it.
Speaker 1:For example, a teenager hanging out with friends on the street, just being together without saying much, and they keep coming back to the same place, this can still feel like an ibasho. It's more about the feeling of belonging rather than the process of meaning making. So, for example, like um, quite a lot of people find, you know, difficult in finding their own ibasho in their first place, second place, for example. You know quite a lot of teenagers suffering from finding their sense of belonging at school, for example. But fourth place is a place for them to reflect themselves and how they want to engage with friends and how they want to create relationships with their families or friends. So fourth place really allow them to reflect and think about how they want to be at their first place or second place. So, you know, they can, you know, refresh their minds and go back to their original places first place, second place and they can be better communicators or relationship builder at their own places.
Speaker 3:Yeah, echo with everything Tomoe just said and just want to add a few more thoughts. First is on the definition. So I personally don't speak Japanese, actually, but by reading Ibasho the word Ibasho through the kanji right, the kanji characters, it may give additional meaning and insight. So the first character in Cantonese, which is my mother tongue, is goi. So goi means just to live right or to be in a place right. And the second set of characters is changso, which means location, right.
Speaker 3:So at its core, ibasho, I think, refers to that. It can be one place, it can be multiple places where you may be situated in or you choose to situate yourself in right, but when you are there you really feel you are quote-unquote in place right, that sense of belonging that Tomoe mentioned. So, yeah, when someone is, you know, seeking for his or her or their Ibasho, you can see that sort of the place, the location where they get that belonging sense. The concept of the fourth place, I believe, goes beyond this. It is that intentional space, that space that is curated for personal growth, for deep connection, for renewal. You may feel challenged in a space or in this space, but you have unlimited sort of nonjudgmental empathy right from the community. You may have a lot of unanswered questions through your self-introspection and group exploration, but then you're also empowered with a lot of autonomy and choices. So that's what the fourth place means to us.
Speaker 3:The second thing I want to highlight about Ibasho is actually a very powerful concept for multi-generation exploration. So, for example, the World Bank recently they published an Ibasho toolkit that you can download, and there are a lot of showcase examples from Japan, from Nepal, from the Philippines, where Ibasho was intentionally fostered right. So in Japan, from Nepal, from the Philippines, where Basho was intentionally fostered right. So in Japan, for example, after the 2011 tsunami, the elderly community in Ofunato established that Basho Cafe, which is a community hub featuring things like a vegetable garden, a farmer's market, a ramen shop, a daycare, an evacuation center right. So this space actually fosters that kind of intergenerational activities. So, for example, we have people teaching traditional crafts to the younger generations.
Speaker 3:Another great example comes from the Philippines. This is way back in 2013, when the Typhoon Yolanda hits. After that, the community, the elderly took the lead in rebuilding the community, but not just the infrastructure, but also the social connections. So they started like a mobile cafe, they started a farm again, they started a recycling program, and it is these initiatives that really, you know, it's not just providing services to the community, but they're empowering the community, the people there, to take ownership and cultivate that sense of purpose. So, as you can see, ibasho is more than just like a location or a place in time. It really very beautifully reflects on that spirit of Ikigai, as you mentioned earlier, right Like that meaning and purpose emerge through connection and social contribution.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a fascinating word. Yet it's so interesting because it just used to mean whereabouts, as you guys defined it. It's from the verb iru, to exist or to be, and bash or place, and compounded means whereabouts. But now it's become a psychological concept and it's in research papers and I think it was applied to psychology with some of Japan's problems with students not wanting to go to school because they obviously felt out of place. And then I think it's also tied to the hikikomori problem, where people are withdrawing themselves from society because either, yeah, the pressure of work and university or school is too much, so they withdraw themselves from society and yeah, now it's sort of become this concept where, oh where can you be yourself and feel social connection, feel accepted, have a sense of belonging and somewhat related to fourth place.
Speaker 2:But, as you guys noted, fourth place seems to come with more intention, maybe more goal-focused, where ibasho can be that or it doesn't have to be that. So, yeah, I love these words ikigai, i-bashō. They've changed my life, and it's also great to meet people who are intentionally using these words in their business, like you guys. So we'll touch on your business name later and how that includes Ikigai. But, moving on, you both believe Japan is a prime location for purpose-driven career shifts and intergenerational collaboration. So do you want to touch on why you believe that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, so I go first. So Japan has one of the world's most rapidly aging populations and with nearly 30 percent of its citizens are over 65, and this demographic shift challenges traditional, traditional career paths that assume retirement at a fixed age. As life expectancy increases, more individuals seek meaningful second and third careers, making Japan a natural testing ground for new ways of working that integrate experience, wisdom and personal fulfillment. With one of the longest life expectancies in the world, japan is redefining what it means to age with purpose. By pioneering career models that embrace lifelong learning, intergenerational mentorship and purpose-driven work, japan can set a global example for societies facing similar demographic shifts. This is what I believe.
Speaker 2:I see what about you, Gloria?
Speaker 3:Yeah, just like Tomoe mentioned, I personally am very proud. I'm sure Tomoe is also a project being that sort of the fourth place. Right, let's support people coming from literally like all walks of life. Right, our community, people of all ages or background. We set out to help mid to late stage career professionals to transform. But really we, we get. We get people from from from all sorts of background, um. So, for example, you'll find rio, um, she is a young artist and through men, she combined her passion in graphic design, um into a career of visual, like official scribe, like a global facilitator for workshops and events. Um. You also meet taru, who's very different. He was a biologist in training, he was an executive in the pharmaceutical industry in japan and now, through mint, he's working on more building communities in life sciences and innovation. So you find passionate professionals like these, right, and some are early career professionals, some are mid-career, late stage, some are entrepreneurs. We also have a fair amount of fellows who are near or past retirement. So there's really no age boundary and our community is really thriving with that kind of diversity.
Speaker 3:And then back to your point, nick, I think you mentioned intergenerational focus, but also the purpose-driven career exploration. So for that latter piece. We worked very hard to create that space, that safe space for our fellows to explore their personal purpose. We would talk about concept of purpose and the Kigai from really influential thought leaders like Nick Craig, which is the author of Leading from Purpose, bill Burnett, on Designing your Lifekits like introspection toolkits, self-awareness toolkits, to help our fellows understand some of those recurring themes right that are happening in their life.
Speaker 3:For example, we would help our fellows explore their what we call crucible moments, which are challenging or transformative experience in their life that might have defined and reinforced who they are. We would also help them visualize their future through a set of, you know, exercises. What Bill Burnett or Dan Evan would say is Odyssey planning. So yeah, all these exercises, all these exploration, is to help that transformation and we believe that is key. With the little statistics, I think out of the survey, 100% of the fellows who surveyed think they found their purpose and the program had created a transformation in them. This can be their career, it can be their life or just leadership transformation, but that is still about mission going to Project Mint.
Speaker 2:Wow, it certainly sounds like you're helping a lot of people from different, I guess, walks of life or people from different generations, so that must be exciting, and I guess that leads us to your business name. What does the Mint in Project Mint actually stand for?
Speaker 3:the MINT in Project MINT actually stand for? Sure, I'll share a little bit and then Tomoe will chime in. So MINT is M-I-N-T right. Mint in Project MINT it stands for M meaning Ikigai and Network and T Transform, which pretty much captures everything Tomoe and I said earlier about the essence of community we're building. But beyond the acronym, our mission is really reflected in, you know, the green color you see in our website, our logo, and the word mint itself symbolizes renewal and growth. So that is that fourth space, again, like that self-renewal, that fresh start, that, you know, that breath of new life into each our each, each of our journeys. And that's the the kind of space we want to create for this community.
Speaker 1:what do you think yeah, so there is also another layer of hidden meaning mean product. Uh, so mint originate from mentors and interns, so reflecting the belief that adults should remain lifelong interns, maintaining a fresh mindset and curiosity, while also serving as mentors, sharing their wisdom with younger generations. Sharing their wisdom with younger generations.
Speaker 2:This embodies our commitment to lifelong learning and intergenerational growth. Yeah, I love this idea that you have all these experienced people with knowledge from their profession, but also their own life experience, and they can certainly be very much useful to society and guiding younger generations. It reminds me of a proverb as well, I think it's something like people begin calligraphy at 80, suggesting that you can always learn something new, even when you're old. So is that the right one? It might have been 50. I think they updated it to 80 for Japan's aging population. So I love this idea of, yeah, anyone at any age can contribute and they can start again. They can start a new career or do something and contribute and help each other. So that's, yeah, really inspiring.
Speaker 3:I love that support to each other, and sometimes it doesn't have to be a new career. We have a story of a senior executive. I think he worked in more on the HR practice of a big company and through Mint he met an entrepreneur who is a young person, but you know, obviously the ceo, co-founder of the company, and um, the mix of the chemistry becomes that, um, this more senior person becomes the advisor of the this young ceo, and is that kind of cross-generation pollination. Everyone is learning, everyone is reinventing in this kind of new collaboration. But that's the beauty about it, right? It doesn't need to be a career transformation. It can be what we call like a side gig or like a moonlighting experience as well.
Speaker 2:Love it. How did you guys meet and what inspired you to work together to create Project Mint?
Speaker 1:So I met Gloria through a school that I took part in for my master's program and it's called Minerva University and Minerva is based in San Francisco and it's a very interesting university because it has a really cutting edge, brand new educational method with cutting edge technology and science based pedagogy, and I was really interested in studying at Minerva University.
Speaker 1:And I was really interested in studying at Minerva University. So when I completed my master's there, gloria was working as a faculty in the professional learning team, I believe, thinking about starting new business in Japan to empower mature adults with education. But I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. So I initially reached out to the Minerva's faculty members to consult or like, how can I start my own business and maybe make partnership with Minerva or something? And the person introduced me to Gloria because Gloria was in charge of the professional learning team at Minerva university at that time. And as, as I discuss with Gloria what is a problem in Japan and what kind of solutions I really want to tackle, and you know, as we go deep, we kind of realized that, oh, having fulfillment at work, having sense of purpose or ikigai, and empower that with mature adults in Japan is really crucial and that's something that we really want to tackle yeah.
Speaker 2:That's such an ambitious for you to have that vision and goal. You know really ambitious, like you're really wanting to transform a country. You know so really inspiring. So I guess you were pretty inspired by that gloria for sure.
Speaker 3:I remember the first conversation was already wow, right, like. This is like how it looks like when someone is, you know, evangelizing her purpose, she really kind of infect people around her as well. So when I first met Tomoe, it is that sort of sense of purpose she has and the very acute challenge that she sees. Right, she's telling me these stories of, again, mid-career professionals. At that time it was our focus, especially in Japan, but I'm sure not limited to Japan. Right, was our focus, especially in Japan, but I'm sure not limited to Japan. Right?
Speaker 3:Some of them seem to have everything set out on paper, right? A great job, a loving family, two kids, a stable life, you know, good financial security, all that. But yet something is missing, right? A lot of times these people felt stuck, may not have that sense of fulfillment in the work, in the life. So that's why we try to design the learning journey and we focus on purpose-driven leadership. But beyond purpose and Ikigai, we also have a curriculum to equip them on leadership transformation as well. So there are things like decision-making systems, thinking, bias, mitigation, emotional intelligence, all that kind of traditional leadership wisdom to help our fellows having a toolkit to navigate complexity in this world.
Speaker 2:There you go, so really, yeah, really ambitious project, and you've succeeded too, so that's something to celebrate. And we have touched on purpose and ikigai, so would you like to share how you define these terms and what's the difference between them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure, for me, for purpose, I always love to use the author's, nick Craig's, definition, and that's also what we created into our project Mean Curriculum as well. What we believe as purpose is that unique and authentic essence that is present throughout your life. So that is that common thread that gives meaning to you. So it can be related to your job or work, but it doesn't have to be so. For example, for me, right, the common thread in my life is solving puzzles. I always say, like, I love solving puzzles and it can come from my sort of quote-unquote talent, right, I love problem solving, I have the ability. But it also comes from my experience, what I went through, my passion, right. So I derive energy when I'm solving problems. So those are that kind of, you know, threat of purpose. And that doesn't change when I change a job, right, let's say, I move from a management consultant in my early careers to now doing course design or becoming a mother, right, that common thread still stays the same at home, at work, when I work with friends and when I'm friends, when I work with, you know, my co-workers, et cetera. So I also think purpose is more outward facing, something we always encourage our fellows to share your purpose or evangelize your purpose once you get clarity on it, be it through your relationships, your broader contributions to the society. So that's purpose for us.
Speaker 3:For me, ikigai, on the other hand, is more dynamic for me and more multifaceted. It can be like a moment in time, like I get ikigai when I'm walking in this nature place. It can be a physical experience, it can be a state of mind, it can even be an item, an object. So, unlike purpose, which is often more about impact, and like a life mission, I think Ikigai can be more personal and inward facing. It doesn't need to have anything about serving others or like grand meaning or you know that kind of thing. It's simply what brings you joy and fulfillment, the reason for you to to be living, to be waking up. So that's sort of my, my perspectives into purpose versus ikigai nice, what about you?
Speaker 1:tomoe purpose and ikigai yeah, so for me, so, gloria, really. So Gloria really explained really well. But I would say purpose is a realization that our actions, whether through work, relationships or daily activities like doing you know, contribute to something beyond ourselves, and it emerges when we recognize that what we do benefits others, organizations or society at large. A sense of purpose is not just about what we do, but why we do it, the deeper motivation that makes our work and life meaningful. Yeah, as work-life longevity extends, we are no longer working just for financial stability, but for mental well-being and sustainable engagement. So a strong sense of purpose keeps us motivated, resilient and fulfilled over the long term, and it helps us navigate career transitions, avoid burnout and find deeper satisfaction in your professional and personal lives.
Speaker 1:So ikigai is, as Gloria said, so it's more about being, you know, it doesn't have to be something that contributes to society or anything. It can be self-pleasure, um, it can be a really simple daily joy, uh, that only serves to oneself, yeah, within self, and also it can also develop as you develop relationships with someone. So it can be some joy, simple joy, shared with someone, like family, friends, or it can, uh, it can broaden to communities or societies or organizations. So in a way, ikigai may become like a means to feel sense of purpose in a way, but ikigai have more broader sense, in a way that you know it can also be self-pleasure or something very simple. Yeah, this is my interpretation, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:It does make sense and even Ken Mogi touches on that. You can find ikigai in the small, in sensory pleasure or, you know, it can be the pursuit of a life-defining goal, but more often than not for Japanese it seems to be things like hobbies or relationships or these small things, and they're not, you know, not really ambitious things, but yeah, it's subjective and deeply personal. So I guess we all get to decide what Ikigai is and I guess it's also very much tied to feeling, like feeling that life is worth living and that includes purpose. So they're definitely relatable.
Speaker 2:And yeah, Miyako Kamiya, the mother of Ikigai, she touches on like sense of purpose and how a strong sense of purpose is likely to make you feel Ikigai most intensely, and she didn't really say it was a requirement. She does have these other Ikigai needs, but almost like a sense of purpose was like the icing on the Ikigai cake. If you really have this strong sense of purpose in your life, whether it's in relationships or work, you'll feel Ikigai intensely. So they're really interesting questions like oh, what is purpose? What is Ikigai?
Speaker 2:So thank you for your perspectives and it seems like you're really helping people find both purpose and Ikigai with the work you do through Mint. So let's have a chat about the impact you're having, as you mentioned earlier, of those whom you work with. Their goals and aspirations in life become clearer, and that's 100%. And then I also know that, after completing your program, 70% actually pursue side jobs or become independent or they change their career. So that's amazing. So would you like to share some examples from your alumni where people you've worked with have found this new professional purpose?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure. So it's been very inspiring to really see firsthand the transformation of our participants. Yeah, so I'm going to introduce maybe two or three examples of our alumni transformation. So first let me introduce Takahiro-san. So I think he was actually featured by the New York Times in 2022, when he just finished his course at Project Mint. When he just finished his course at Project Mint, he spent 30 years working in the advertising industry in Japan as a corporate employee. Through our program, he discovered his personal purpose, which is to respect people who want to live with honesty, respect people who want to live with honesty. And after quitting his company when he hit 50 years old, he transitioned into a freelance life coach, focusing on supporting retirees and those seeking new second career opportunities. By connecting with diverse like-minded people, takahiro gained the confidence to actualize his purpose and he still continues to learn coaching and facilitation and feeling fulfilled by belonging to multiple communities. So I think that he definitely rediscovered his personal purpose and really transitioned to a purposeful career path.
Speaker 1:And there is also another lady. Her name is Maya. She was a housewife for 30 years before joining our program. In her generation, it's pretty common to beiscover her own way, you know, because her kids became independent already. Her kids graduated from college and she wanted to think about what future she will have in her own life. So through our program, she discovered her own personal purpose, which is to find the diamond in dialogue, and Maya now creates spaces for parents and children to engage in meaningful dialogues, fostering mutual understanding within families. She has also explored working in a kindergarten and continues to learn how to facilitate these important conversations, helping young families with young children in her local community. So I would say she found her own personal purpose and perhaps connecting with families, kids in her local communities, may be her ikigai, I think, which is a very beautiful example of reinventing, you know, her life after feeding empty nests? Yeah, so these are the real stories from our alumni.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're very inspiring and it highlights how you're helping these people find a new role in their life. People find a new role in their life, a new meaningful role that impacts others, obviously in ways that are aligned to their values, and you know who they want to become.
Speaker 1:So that's I love. That, wasn't the diamond in dialogue? Is that how you phrased? That is Maya's personal purpose, because she found her joy in engaging in dialogues with the other participants at Project Mint. So, you know, having dialogues with open heart and curiosity really made her, you know, realize, oh, this is her personal purpose.
Speaker 2:And yes, you mentioned also her own ikigai, so she kind of aligned the two. So that's inspiring. So, on that theme, what about you, tomoe? What is your personal ikigai?
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you for asking no-transcript, perhaps, especially with the alumni of Project Mint. I really enjoy interacting with them. Also, I really enjoy creating a safe space where anyone can be their authentic selves, share their struggles, even negative feelings, and, just you know, having a genuine support, yeah, and support one another without judgment. I think, creating this kind of space and just you know, enjoying the genuine connection, even though all of our participants are from different backgrounds and different experiences and different generations. But you know, we are all navigating life together and you know, just simply acknowledging the difference and just getting to know each other in profound ways and being present for each other, listening and growing together. I think, yeah, just creating this space is what gives my work and life deep meaning.
Speaker 2:I can relate. I do think Ikigai is very much tied to social world and, yeah, for me Ikigai seems to come to life when it's shared or when you meaningfully connect with others and make new friends, make new relationships. So I guess that's why we were given ears and mouths to talk and have meaningful discussions. So what about you, Gloria? What's your ikigai?
Speaker 3:Sure, I guess I'll go back to the earlier discussion about purpose and ikigai. So my purpose, I feel like, is more sort of well-defined, at least from my perspective. So I always say, okay, it's to solve puzzles right. But when I say puzzles, it's to solve puzzles right. But, uh, when I say puzzles, it's really like thinking about problems, right, what are the challenges? What are the problems? Um, especially complex problems, like wicked problems in the society, um, so the problems that need collective wisdom to resolve. So I feel like that is my purpose and that is why I work on education and learning. That is why I am interested in, you know, creating this project, mint Community, to help people, you know, solve the puzzles Right and also getting that collective wisdom in transformation.
Speaker 3:When it comes to Ikigai, I feel like I'm still more on a journey of exploring, to be honest, right. So, um, for me, I think the moments I really feel closest to ikigai, like this is why am I here? You know, that kind of moments are, um, when I'm in a flow, when I'm in a flow state. And for those who are less familiar with the concept, flow is that feeling of like really being immersed, focused in an activity and like deeply engaged and really get a strong, deep sense of enjoyment. And that's the stage where you feel challenged. Right, you feel challenged and you can stretch your ability. You know that kind of state and for those who talk about Ikigai, you study that, like you might have also heard Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. He's a scientist who popularized the term. But the term flow state is also deeply connected to Ikigai.
Speaker 3:So for me, this is when I feel like I'm working or tackling those big questions in education and innovation, those, like you know, complex puzzles. Um, I often find myself like working really late, like suddenly I stay up, uh, all night, 3 am4 am. I'm scrolling, like looking at articles and things like that, completely absorbed and energized in the process. And and that's when I feel like, ah, maybe that's why I exist, that's my true meaning, the, the purpose, and, um, yeah, so when people say, oh, ikigai is the reason you wake up in the morning, for me is the reason I stay up at night. But I guess it's the same thing. Yeah, but really I'm still in that life journey of experiencing and embracing Ikigai and I'm still learning what is my Ikigai?
Speaker 2:That's a brilliant way to frame it. It's the reason why I stay late at night to continue what you're working on. I might steal that from you, but, interestingly, one of the first papers I found on Ikigai was related to the flow state and referenced the flow state scale. It was basically saying, when you experience the flow state, you in turn experience Ikigai, which then adds to your sense of coherence related to that activity. And the paper's quite complicated, but basically, yeah, you feel ikigai when you're in flow and that makes life meaningful. And you seem to have the awareness of that after the flow state, because you're enjoying the flow state so much it's really afterwards you realize, oh, that session or that sport, whatever it is, makes you think, oh, that was great, life is good. So, yeah, flow can certainly make you feel ikigai, or flow could be ikigai for sure. So, yeah, I love to get in flow. I need to get into a bit more often but I also really agree with.
Speaker 3:We are like that theme of connection and like how flow is a very introspective, like you know, like for myself the inner feeling, but how, how then it translates into also connection, right, the community. That that to me is also like how I continue to um, reinforce the, the ikigai and and those different aspects of ikigai is is really important as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can even have like social flow where we're engaged in, I guess, the diamond of dialogue, where we, both people or members, feel like they're in flow within a conversation or a group. And maybe that's what eBashall and Fourth Place provide, that social flow which is so important, especially in this world of this chaotic world of social media and, um, so much of our communication now is done through devices yeah, I would say, you know, just feeling the sense of oneness, like itai kan, is also another aspect of ikigai.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, just you know, feeling the genuine connection with others, you know, oh, like we are really understanding each other on a deeper level and that really creates the sense of harmony. And yeah, I think this is what, what is something unique about japanese culture as well yeah, harmony, unity.
Speaker 2:I learned to take. I learned Itaikan from Gordon Matthews and he made this really interesting observation that in Japan there is this desire for Itaikan, like unity, connection, and that's obviously valued and kind of driven into culture, and then in the West there is this desire for self-expression and self-actualization. But he did note when he interviewed all these Japanese and Americans, some Japanese secretly kind of wanted the freedom to self-actualize and then some Americans also kind of secretly said, ah, I wish I was more connected to people. So I think we want both. We want this freedom to self-actualize, but we also want to feel like we're part of something, either a community or maybe something bigger than ourselves. So it's so fascinating how Ikigai is subjective and how we can define it from all these different angles.
Speaker 2:There was one word I wanted to throw at you guys, because you are very passionate about your work, and there is the word hatarakigai. So hataraku, the verb to work, and then hatarakigai would be obviously work that's worth doing, work that's meaningful. So is it fair to say that you both experience Hatarakigai via Project Mint?
Speaker 3:For me? Yeah, definitely, I would think so. Let's say for me, whenever we have these workshops where the fellows come and, you know, share their personal purpose and it might be officially through like collage or like it can be a personal statement, kind of statement, kind of um, every time when I'm in that part of the workshop for a new cohort of our project, mean um participants. I I always feel that sense of um adorakigai, um. So. So, yeah, definitely, yes, a resounding yes, um tomoe for you, yes definitely hatarakigai.
Speaker 1:So for me, hatatarakigai. So for me, hatarakigai is more about feeling a sense of kind of accomplishment yeah, so like what I do really contributes to a progress of our business. So this is when I feel Hatarakigai and I feel the most Hatarak guy. When our alumni makes progress, for example reinventing their careers or making even a small step toward their purposeful career path, that's when I feel Hataraki guy and so proud of them. And also I enjoy learning through working at Project MEAN, like my own personal growth. Yeah, like learning about new concepts of self-awareness, new concepts of decision-making and effective communication and dialogues. Learning about this fancy new knowledge really make me feel even more curious and contribute to my self-improvement and that's also when I feel Hatarakigai.
Speaker 2:I do hope that at some stage in the future Project Mint and Ikigai Tribe will collaborate on something and then we can share some Hatarakigai and Ikigai together and a sense of purpose. So many things to share, but really inspired by what you guys do and wanting to learn more. So hopefully we can all meet the three of us. How often do you go to Japan, gloria?
Speaker 3:Tomoe and I were talking about a potential trip in maybe summer May. You know that time frame. So, yeah, I'm hoping to, yeah, meet Tomoe and you together in Japan, and I guess that will be the midpoint right, that will be the midway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I'll definitely be there in May. So if you can get there in May, we can catch up and have a chat in person.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I just want to.
Speaker 3:It may or may not be in the podcast, but I just want to comment on what you shared earlier about the cultural perspectives of ikigai.
Speaker 3:And people start from different starting point and you know, japanese may have a more sense of the unity already, but, like, really yearning for, like well, it's my personal purpose, right, self-actualization versus like in a lot of western culture, um, we actually want, like, people are starting to learn more how how to get ikigai through community, right, that social connection, um, but beyond oneself, I think that's a really interesting concept and us being this like cross um global group of you know someone in melbourne, someone is in japan and I have asian background, but, being in us, I think that different starting point and bringing the different aspects of ikigai together for individuals is really powerful.
Speaker 3:I remember tomoe and I interviewed a researcher on part of a fellow, he studies the concept of regret in life, but through that conversation he said, like his perspective of ikigai is the following is more like collection of gemstones, right, like. So there are different ways of you know, experiencing ikigai. It can be through that moment, it can be through that flow state. It can be through that flow state. It can be through that connection, it can be through that self-actualization, that purpose theme. And yeah, it is like I really like his metaphor of gemstones in life and you can collect gemstones in various different ways and your culture may show you predominantly one way, but I guess for us it's like how can we evangelize the many different paths and ways so people can experience more ikigai in their life?
Speaker 2:So that's what's fascinating. When you hear these different interpretations or perspectives on ikigai, it's like, ah, I've learned something new so that's a nice way to describe it a collection of life's gemstones. And even the idea of regret, like I was thinking about this the other day, like why do we regret something and we struggle to let it go? And I kind of realized perhaps it's because it's a loss of potential icky guy. You had this potential icky guy but for whatever reason you didn't take the opportunity, or you're too lazy, or whatever happened. And then it's only after you realize I lost this opportunity. Now I regret it and you realize, ah, it was a loss of ikigai yes, next time when we get together, we'll talk also on regret.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, I, yeah, I believe a lot of these. And also ikigai does it have to be related to joy or, you know, fulfillment, or doesn't it transcend beyond right, like so?
Speaker 2:there, there are these concepts as well, and I'm curious to hear more yes, this conversation could go on and on, but we should finish, so thank you both, uh, gloria and Tomoe, very much for your time. It was good to connect with you both today.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having us, Nick.
Speaker 2:My pleasure, so we'll say bye for now, but hopefully our next conversation will be in person. Awesome, yes, please, okay, bye for now.
Speaker 1:Bye for now. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Thank you everyone. Thanks, See you.