The Ikigai Podcast
The Ikigai Podcast
Nature, Rituals, and Kami: Discovering the Essence of Shinto with Taishi Kato
Shinto, Japan's indigenous religion, is strongly rooted in animism, with Japanese believing that objects, places, and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence. Shinto does not have a single creator or specific doctrine, and instead exists in a diverse range of local and regional forms emphasising a sacred connection between humans and the natural world.
In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Taishi Kato about the deep-rooted significance of Shinto and the ongoing efforts to preserve its rich heritage.
I can say it's like kind of the essence of Shinto Musubi. Now, musubi refers to the power to connect and bring things together. It's a working of, between something and anything. Right? How can I say Everything in the universe?
Speaker 2:Interconnects.
Speaker 1:Ah, yeah, that's right. Connective power. So everything in the universe, so nature, people, objects and even emotions, is interconnected.
Speaker 2:Find your Ikigai at ikigaitribecom. My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Taishi Kato, a licensed Shinto priest. Taishi serves at the Hatori Tenjingu Shrine in the bustling city of Osaka, trying to strike a balance between preserving tradition while also innovating and looking beyond it. Having studied in London and lectured on Shinto to an international audience, Tashi is on a mission to spread the wisdom of Shinto to the world, believing that underneath its uniquely Japanese form, it is abundant with universal insights that we would all benefit from learning. Thank you so much for your time today. I could call you Kanushi, or I could call you Negi-san, but maybe I'll call you Taishi because you already feel like a friend. So thank you. Thank you for joining me today, Taishi.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for giving me the great opportunity to talk about Shinto.
Speaker 2:My pleasure, thank you. So what is fascinating, tashi, is you are the 22nd generation Shinto priest in your family, so that's a lot of history. So were you always destined to be a Shinto priest? Actually, no, no.
Speaker 1:To be honest, when I was a child, I really didn't want to become a Shinto priest. So, as a 22nd generation of Shinto priests in my family, my heritage influenced me a lot. Actually, even my mother encouraged me to explore more different possibilities. So she said that I didn't need to follow my family tradition. You can free to choose your path. But the turning point came during my university. Actually, I studied business commerce at my ko university and most of my friends just like searching for get carry, plus I also hunting for a job at that time. But at that time I just found a book about my grandfather.
Speaker 1:But my grandfather passed away when I was a junior high school student and, to be honest, I didn't know well about my grandfather. My grandfather is so I'm so afraid of him. He's so how can I say too, too strong to me and he has a? Maybe he didn't show me the like his personality. How can I say he is always being a shinto priest? So for me it's not like grandfather.
Speaker 1:But I just found a book about my grandfather and actually he became a chief priest at the age of 22. So 22 years old, wow, chief priest. Yeah, chief priest, and at that time I also, I was 22 years old and he actually rebuilt a totally ruined Shinto shrine together with local people. Just maybe it has been just three years. He rebuilt the Shinto shrine, oh wow, and how can I say? His dedication and his achievements at a really such a young age moved me a lot. I didn't know well about my grandfather, but I just felt a connection with him and I just decided to follow his footsteps. And I just decided to follow his footsteps and I just decided to preserve and pass this tradition to future generations.
Speaker 2:I understand. So he really dedicated his life to preserving Shintoism and rebuilding this shrine for the community.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:I guess he took his role of a kanushi very seriously.
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually, he was in the position of top of manager in Osaka when he was maybe 50 years old, so it's so young. He's kind of like a politician. I see, maybe my great-grandfather is also Shinto priest, but he is not Shinto priest at Hattori Tenshingu shrine. This is mine and my great-uncle. He's still living this world, so he was a chief priest at Ikuta shrine in hyogo prefecture. This is one of the big shinto shrine in kansai area and maybe, compared with ikuta shrine, hatori tenshin shrine is not so big. And how can I say my grandfather is so makizug is, so I don't know how to say it, he doesn't like to lose, yes, and also he wants to change the shrine's world.
Speaker 1:How can I say no matter what position, it's equal right. So it doesn't matter what Shinto shrines you are. So he changed this kind of like consciousness and he try hard to be like, act like politician.
Speaker 2:I see, yes, that's interesting His shrine to be more recognized. Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow. So very dedicated to his role of being a Shinto priest, but also to establishing your shrine, hatori Tenjingu. Well, there we go. So that served as some inspiration for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it inspired me even now. So sometimes I thought that if my grandfather is here, how does he how can I say do in this world? So it's a really good way of my how can I say?
Speaker 2:Preserving his memory. Yeah, receiving his button, continuing his work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sure he'd be very proud of you. So we should talk about Shinto as a religion. And it is fascinating. And I do remember the day, I think, I was living in Japan and I first discovered, oh, japan has two religions, how unusual and how can they be harmonious? But now I think I understand. But with Shinto it's interesting there's no founder, no holy scriptures and even no concept of conversion, so you don't become a Shintoist, for example. Yeah, that's right. So it makes it very unique as a religion. But I imagine it's hard to explain. And then the word Shinto is often translated to you know, way of the gods.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But also they're not really gods. I've also seen it's translated as the kami way, so that might be more appropriate. So how do you describe Shintoism or Shinto, and what are kami and how are they different from gods?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's always difficult to explain Shinto. Even, as you know, japanese people don't know about the word Shinto, even though they visit Shinto shrine. Yeah, and it's totally different from the concept of religion in Western countries. And Shinto is a way of life in harmony with kami. It's based on the idea that human beings are part of nature, but it doesn't center on human beings. It's a difference. So I think it's not a good way to say Shintoism. I think it's a more proper way to say Shintoism. I think it's a more proper way to describe Shinto.
Speaker 1:Okay, and Shinto and Japan is like a rich in nature and with about 70% of the land area covered by mountains and forest, but on the other hand, the country is also like. There are many natural disaster happen, such as earthquake, typhoon, tsunami. Japanese people appreciate the blessing of nature. On the other hand, they live together with nature in all of its harshness. So it's inevitable to like avoid the harshness of nature.
Speaker 1:We cannot control nature's power and in ancient Japan, people depended on nature for agriculture and fishing, and also they feared natural disasters. So they believed that these natural forces are the working of kami. Like all powerful gods were creators of the universe, were more like sacred spirits present in nature, such as mountains, rivers, trees, even the wind and sand, and actually some kami are also historical figures. Maybe later we are talking about this is because this is actually Hattori Tenjingu shrines are kami of historical figures. Maybe later we are talking about this is because this is actually Hattori Tenjingu shrines are coming up like historical figures. So they made a big, great contribution to society. So that's why so these historical figures is also enshrined at Shinto shrines, wow, and yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:I didn't know people could be enshrined and then become referred to as kami Hointan's emperor, have you ever been to Meijin Shrine? I have. Yeah, oh, that's right. Yes, that's true, that was designed or created for him, but I thought I didn't realize he was also kami.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, mostly Japanese people don't know well about this. Is a kami of this Shinto shrine. Maybe they just visit. They can't identify. Yeah, what is a shrine kami? This is a very interesting point. Yeah, visit, they cannot identify what is an enshrined kami. This is a very interesting point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, one of my questions, which we'll probably talk about later, was oh, is it more custom than belief? And my perception is, shinto is more custom-based and the sense of of, do you really believe there's a kami in everything? I've never really heard Japanese talk about, but when anyone in my social network is a Christian or if they're Muslim, they really believe in this one powerful God and, yeah, they dedicate a lot of time maybe to prayer, to going to church. So it's very interesting the difference. So I guess in Western religions you have faith, you have to have faith in the idea of a God.
Speaker 2:Where Shinto it seems to be, I guess the perception is, oh, it's so strongly connected to nature, that's, I don't know. Maybe belief for me would be easier. It's like, oh, okay, well, we come from nature, we are nature. Nature teaches us so much. It has this abundance. We survive or we're allowed to live because of nature, but also, yeah, disasters can happen. So, and I love the idea that there is a kami, some sort of spiritual energy, in everything, because I think it encourages you to respect it, to appreciate what you have. And Japanese as a culture, they seem to have far more respect and appreciation for everything than most other cultures, so I shouldn't push you. But if we were to define Kami, would it be something like spiritual energy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, spiritual energy, yeah, spiritual energy. Sometimes they describe life force. So life force yeah, but spiritual energy is a it's great expression, I think, yeah, okay. Or somebody it is also. I think, yeah, okay. Or sometimes deities also, because, as you know, there are many types of kami in Japan, so it's not easy to define one word. Yes, so historical figures also is enshrined, and also nature, or even maybe sometimes some object can be kami.
Speaker 2:It's sort of vague, but it's still relatable, because you could think well, there is a stone, there is a tree, you can feel energy from nature. Yeah, Actually do you know? There's no famous shinto priest in the history. There's no famous shinto priest?
Speaker 1:yes, there's. There are no shinto priest, famous shinto priest in the history. I think that's a huge difference from the another religion. That's a huge difference from another religion because there is no how can I say definition of Shinto. It's not the language communication, it's more focused on ritual communication. So we cannot easily describe in language. That's a really important point. To have a long history, to have like long history, to have this history, this culture, to the next generation. This is a Japanese wisdom, I think.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's very appealing because it's a very different approach, and I learned from, for example, ken Moggi, who's been a guest on this podcast, the idea of yaoyorozu no kami. Is that correct? Yeah, that's right, that's correct, which translates to eight million gods.
Speaker 1:So could you touch on this? Maybe this concept has been a huge influence on Japanese culture. Maybe most of Japanese people use this concept to explain a lot of things in Japan.
Speaker 1:I think, and maybe our reason for kami represents the belief that kami exists everywhere. So the number 8 million is not literal but just symbolic, so expressing the diverse presence of kami. So even how can I say the kami has been increasing? We cannot, you know, we can easily. How can I fix, oh, this is 8 million, kami has been increasing. We cannot easily fix this is 8 million kami. It's always increasing, so it's not easy to fix this kami notion.
Speaker 1:And so Shinto embraces the idea. So multiple kami, co ko exist, each have their unique roles in maintaining their balance in the world. So, for instance, there are many kami of harvest, running and rain and forest, and, of course, food and protect specific places. And this concept allows for like flexible and inclusive way of thinking. So where, like, even different tradition can coexist in harmony. And, as you know, in Japan, buddhism and Shinto used to be like syncretism, so even now Japanese people cannot identify which is temple, which is Shinto shrine. So, and also Shinto, accepted, accepted art of religion, which is Shinto shrine. So, and also Shinto, how can I say accepted art of religion, yes, and to evolve in a different way. So, because of the concept of Yawaru, no Kami, I think.
Speaker 2:It is interesting they use the number eight because in Roman numerals it's also the symbol of infinity, because it's a closed yeah, it's like a closed circuit. And then the kanji for eight widens.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Suggesting that what you just said. The number of kami is probably forever increasing. And I think when you first hear this as a foreigner it's like very strange, like oh, how can there be a God in everything? But then of course it's not a God, and then Japanese can't explain it. So that's another interesting thing. But the customs involve often weekly or monthly behaviour. There's a matsuri, or people just go to the shrine because they feel like going, or they have all these children's festivals. So it's very much part of their culture. Yet, as you keep saying, it's very hard for them to explain what it is, because I guess they just grow up with the religion.
Speaker 1:This concept. As I said before, this concept is very huge influence on Japanese culture, without consciousness. For instance, we don't have the notion of individual in Japan and human being has a different personality depending on the environment. How can I say, for instance, we have a maybe different nickname depending on the situation? For me, when I stay Shinto shrine, call me as like Shinto priest, or like Negi-san, but I also work at a kindergarten. Actually, this is also my family heritage, and so children call me as like sensei, teacher, and also I have a family. So, depending on the environment, we have a different personality and everything is changing. Everything is interactive, interconnected in this world, so we cannot easily fix our personality. So this is maybe the concept of Yawaro's no kami also, I think.
Speaker 2:It is interesting. We do have multiple roles Father, friend, in your case, priest, teacher. I've been a teacher, a consultant, and now I guess I'm almost an educator of Ikigai. But you're right, I think in the West there is this strong sense of self and we value individualism, we pride ourselves on being different and unique. But in Japan it's very much collective harmony with others, and I guess that goes back to this idea of harmony with nature and understanding. You're part of a bigger collective, so it makes Japanese this is a general idea obviously more selfless. But perhaps in the West we're a bit more self-oriented, self-focused. Yeah, I do find going to Japan very comfortable because of these reasons. Oh, I see, I seem to.
Speaker 2:I don't know, just slip into the culture and think, oh, this is nice, I don't know. Just slip into the culture and think, oh, this is nice, I don't have to worry about too many things. I see, and there's also a lot of structure to Japan. Kimari monk set expressions and behaviour that makes it very easy to understand what to do. So, yeah, it's interesting. I guess it's based on different values. So we should touch on the core values, shinto, which include these ideas of harmony with nature, purity and cleanliness and reverence for ancestors. So would you like to talk on these values? Okay?
Speaker 1:Habiburhat Musububi. Do you know?
Speaker 2:this word musubi? Is that musubi to?
Speaker 1:time, yeah, yeah yeah and also it's the expression of the kami. Actually, okay, I can say it's like kind of the essence of Shinto Musubi. Now, musubi refers to the power to connect and bring things together. It's a working of, between something and anything. Right? How can I say Everything in the universe? Interconnects oh yeah, that's right. Connective power, so everything in the universe, so nature, people, objects and even emotions, is interconnected. This belief is reflected in like traditional customs such as bow in ritual Bowing.
Speaker 1:As a formal greeting right. Yes, and actually during the ritual at Shinto shrine there's a time to offer prayer in a harmonious way. So two bow, two claps and a bow and there is a representative person there just offering prayer. They just in the same way to offer prayer. This is a symbol of harmony in the ritual of Shinto shrine. So we don't need to describe harmony in language, just to do the ritual. Instead of language communication, we just do the ritual communication. You know that feels harmony with everything.
Speaker 2:That is an interesting point, because if we go to like, christians might sing hymns or maybe Muslims recite the Koran yeah, but in Shinto you visit and clap your hands twice and bow twice and then you clap again. Yeah, is that?
Speaker 1:correct. Yes, two bows, two claps and one bow. One bow, but it depends on the Shinto shrine. Some Shinto shrines are different ways.
Speaker 2:And then, maybe silently, you would say a prayer yes, just in your mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but in my case I'm offered the Norito this prayer I just sang to Kami Like address name. What's his prayer? Okay?
Speaker 2:So you vocalize the prayers for visitors yeah and so? So what do they do? Do they write it out for you, or yeah?
Speaker 1:for instance, if you want to keeping of evil spirits, just like writing the situation.
Speaker 2:For instance, yeah, I just like vocalizing to have you ever had any unusual prayers or requests.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes even people cannot identify their feeling. Yes, so I just feel how, what's the problem of this visitor? And then I just say, to vocalize kami.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I didn't know about that, and so would that be on a particular day? No, every day.
Speaker 1:Any day, yeah, shrines open every day?
Speaker 2:Yeah, shrines open every day. Or maybe I'll come to your shrine and offer you a prayer to vocalize for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let me do that. Yeah, my role is like actually Shinto priests describe having the role to Nakatorimochi. It's like connecting visitors and kami. This is my role. We are the how can I say main character. We are not main character, we just connect visitor with kami. Nice.
Speaker 2:I like that idea, and I mean Shinto is something I don't know much about. I've done some study and the more I study it the more I'm interested. Yeah, and so when I was doing research for this interview, I did come across Jomei Seijoku, which is Yoji Jukugo. So it's a four-character word and I love yoji jukugo, these four characters that convey ideas and have a general meaning. So it's a bit hard to explain, but imagine four kanji characters. So jō means purity, mei means brightness or clarity. So 浄 means purity, 明 means brightness or clarity, 清 means correctness, and then 直 or 直, honesty. So is this a word you know well? Obviously you know well. What does it convey in Shinto?
Speaker 1:So 浄, 明, 清直 in Shinto, so 浄名正直. So actually the highest position at Shinto place is described 浄界. We use the word 浄, so the most important word is 浄, so in other words, purity in English. Right? So let me explain about purity in Shinto. And actually purity represents both not just physical but spiritual cleanness. So I like the Western idea of sin, which is often seen as a moral failure, which is often seen as a moral failure. But impurity in Shinto is just a temporary state, so it can be cleaned through purification ritual. So impurity can arise from everyday experience, like negative emotions such as anger and sadness. So it's inevitable to avoid these temporary impurities, because temporary. So we need to do purification like day by day. And one of the common purification ritual at Shinto shrine is temizu. Before visiting main shrine, we need to clean our body and mind. So wash your hands and rinse your mouth before approaching the kami. It's like this act symbolizes removing temporary impurities and preview the mind and body for a sacred experience. And another example is misogi. Do you know this?
Speaker 2:word? I do know this word. Yeah, I'm trying to remember, please.
Speaker 1:This is also an important concept in Shinto, so it's like individual clean themselves by standing under water for a river. Actually, we have a training to get into the river and pray in order to purify our body and mind, or a prayer in order to purify our body and mind, and it's a huge influence on Japanese culture. Actually, and maybe most of Japanese people do bathing, taking baths.
Speaker 2:Bathing culture yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I stayed in London. There's no bath, so I'm just taking a shower, but in Japan it's very natural to take a bus, maybe at night or in the morning. This is not just like wash your body, but also clean your mind, like reflecting about what happened today or removing the temporary impurities, and to refresh our body and mind and to start the new day. So this is kind of purification in Japanese people.
Speaker 2:So both a physical and mental and spiritual approach. Yeah, and yeah, I mean, bathing culture is very important and significant in Japan. Even when I visit my in-laws yeah, my in-laws. This happened last time. I was there for like half an hour. My father-in-law was like Furuhaeru, nick, you want a bath? And it's like five o'clock in the afternoon. I'm like no, I'm just here to say hello. So maybe he saw many impurities.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't think so. It's like communication. That was a good communication, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it was so funny. We're having tea and oh, nick furuharu. So yeah, the bathing culture takes getting used to as well, because Australia we generally just have showers and we just see it as you know, just cleaning ourselves, and then if we do have a bath, it's more like a relaxation and you know, long, hot bath. But yeah, japanese do this every day. I know my Japanese friends in Melbourne miss it Like oh, I feel like a furo like furo hairitai.
Speaker 2:So I guess the idea of purity is also conveyed with your clothing and the colour white.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:This is white, so white symbolises purity and even, is it shide, the paper streamers you see Symbolizes thunder. Yes, yeah, so that's representing thunder.
Speaker 1:I mean lightning. Lightning, yes, because we need, in order to do agriculture, we need the breathing of rain, right, yes? So that's why we're just offering prayer to kami. So thunder and cloud, and also rain, shimenawa Nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so every aspect of Shinto has a deep meaning or attachment to nature, I think has a deep meaning or attachment to nature.
Speaker 1:I think the reason why I think we need to be in the state of mind purity is because connecting with kami, I think you know. Actually, if you visit Shinto shrine, you will be able to find the mirror. Have you ever seen mirror inside the main shrine?
Speaker 2:Ah, I think I've heard about this To reflect yes, that's right, your mind.
Speaker 1:If you see it's like clouded, your mind is also clouded. It's like a reflection of people's minds. Your mind is also not being purity, oh wow. So, it's like the effect of people's mind.
Speaker 2:So, as a priest, I guess you're expected to have purity, a pure mind in your role. So yeah, these impurities of frustration, anger, resentment, hate, most people experience. Some people experience often every day, for many reasons, and then other people don't I mean not that often, and they have control of their emotions. So, as a priest, how often do you get angry? Not very often, because you look very calm and peaceful and peace-loving person. Yeah, do you ever get?
Speaker 1:angry, yeah, sometimes. Do you ever get angry? Yeah, sometimes it's not easy to control my emotions. Sometimes Maybe it's not so much compared with business I guess I have many business friends from my university. I don't feel not's not so stressful. But actually it's very difficult to manage Shinto shrine because we need to unify local people, for instance, to conduct like festival, for instance, and we need to change to preserve tradition. In my case, this is my role. I think in need to change to preserve tradition. In my case, this is my role. I think, in order to change, we have to convince local people. Let me do this festival right.
Speaker 1:But, the reason why I can control my emotion is because maybe I receive heritage, tradition and culture. It's like more than 1,000 years. So I feel like I have a responsibility to passing this tradition to next generation. So that's why I don't feel easily angry to something, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's an important role. This role you have to maintain Japan's unique culture and religion, but at the same time you are faced with dynamic change. That's it's happening so fast now. Technology is really changing our life and the kind of the irony is, I think Japanese themselves seem to be losing interest in their own culture and foreigners a lot of foreigners are very interested in Japanese culture as a generalisation, so it must be at times frustrating for you to. How do I get local people involved in this? Matsuri?
Speaker 2:that's probably had several hundred-year history even a thousand-year history and you're trying to maintain that. Hundred year history, uh yeah, even thousand year history, you're trying to maintain that.
Speaker 1:So, with that in mind, should we talk about your shrine, okay, yeah, so tell me about your shrine and who's enshrined there, if someone is, or what cam is enshrined there. So hattori tenjin shrine is located in osaka, japan, and it's known as a food shrine and and has. This shrine is linked to hatata Kuran, an ancient family of skilled textile workers who just came from maybe Korea, I think and just settled in Osaka and in. We cannot easily, we cannot say the exact date of the Shinto shrine.
Speaker 1:And in 1901, sugawara Michizane, who was a scholar and politician and he just, unfortunately, he was exiled from Kyoto to Fukuoka. He just stopped at this place on his way and he, due to the leg ailment, disease, he could no longer walk, and he offer prayer at the shrine of medicine, the name of Sukuna Hikonanomikoto, the deity of medicine, okay, and he offer prayer and his leg gradually recovered and allowing him to continue his journey safely to arrive at Fukuoka. And that's why Hato Tenjin Shrine has been known as a sacred place, as a foot shrine, so it's been more than 1,000 years.
Speaker 2:I see. Well, I should go, because 20 years ago I had an operation on my leg, yes, and some of the muscles on my leg were removed my adductor muscles, and it's not. It's not a big problem, but my right leg probably needs some help. So I will. I should come to your shrine and say a prayer and maybe that will help my leg.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let me offer a prayer for you to the deity of Kami.
Speaker 2:Thank you. So the Kami enshrined there is a Kami of the foot, or what kind of Kami is enshrined there?
Speaker 1:Actually so, as I said before, the Sukuna Hikona no Mikoto, the deity of medicine, and also Sugara Michizane. So there are two deities in shrine, but in order to how can I say, express easily, or in order to connect people, we say not, we people say good, we people say Kutsu.
Speaker 2:Shrine, kutsu Shrine. Okay, so it has the cameo of treatment, not medicine. Medicine, yeah, yes. And what's the other one, the actual Sugara Michizane? Who was that person who traveled through?
Speaker 1:He is famous as the learning, like the many student visit of a peer. That's the examination.
Speaker 2:So because learning, learning, okay, so health and learning, medicine and sort of natural medicine and learning. I see Well, I should definitely go, because I can always learn more. So let's talk about your role at Hattori Tenjingu.
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually, my position is under my father. My father is a chief priest. My position is like in Japanese negi it's like deputy chief priest, I think, and my responsibility is preserving the Shinto tradition and also conducting rituals, educating visitors about Shinto values and in order to pass the culture to the next generation. I also lead a new initiative and connect our shrine histories, focusing on foot health, with modern concerns, with modern concerns so, such as I just created foot festival and hikyaku marathon festivals.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, yeah so it's like I think Shinto is based on well-being in modern age, so everything is connected to well-being age, so everything is connected to well-being. So my role is to use the culture of food shrine to adapt to modern age. So that's why I just created Food Festival and Hikakumar Festival.
Speaker 2:So that's an interesting challenge. How do you try to attract young people to your shrine Through social media, or is it more trying to attract local people?
Speaker 1:Actually, in order to attract runners, I just coincidentally found a really famous runner who was very interested in Shinto and we just gathered together to create a food festival, and then he just decided to become a Shinto priest. Oh wow, yes, just got the license of Shinto priest to know more about Shinto priest. Oh wow, yes, just got the license of Shinto priest to know more about Shinto.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he has a really influence on Rangnus and I have a background of like history of Shinto, so we get together to create a new culture to adapt to younger people.
Speaker 2:Sounds exciting.
Speaker 1:So a bit of a celebrity helps when someone is famous, that's right, yeah, there used to be a famous TV show, jonas Tyreek, maybe if you search it's a very, very famous TV show in Japan there you go, so that always helps to have someone well-known.
Speaker 2:Okay, so actually, last November I did a retreat, I was a host of a retreat, and we did go to a Shinto shrine and I was trying to explain, oh, at a shrine there are these things you can purchase, like ema or a omamori or mikuji. And the ema is a really interesting idea, so that little wooden board you can buy and then you write a, I guess, a prayer or a wish, yeah, and then you, you hang it somewhere, either on a tree or some designated rack, and I was astounded that a wiser called emma and it has a relationship to horse, yes, to a horse so yeah, would you like to touch on the origin of the name emma okay, japanese people used to offer forces to the shrine, but, as you know, it's impossible because everyone cannot own forces, right?
Speaker 1:So, and some people write the picture of forces as a drawing, and then just culture has been changing and now we use wooden plates to write their wishes. Now we use a wooden plate to write their wishes, and I think writing wishes maybe it's very important custom for Japanese people. I think I don't know why, but if you write your wishes, you feel like your prayer is coming true, by blessing, by coming. This is one of the Japanese, I think, custom.
Speaker 2:It's a good custom and some of my retreat participants really enjoyed the idea.
Speaker 1:And also omikuji is also very interesting. I think 80% of Japanese people who visit Shinto Shrine they draw omikuji Even though they don't receive omamori. They are very how can I say? Addicted to omikuji. Sometimes I can find people who draw twice or three times omikuji.
Speaker 2:So omikuji is like a fortune reading and they draw it, they pick one from, I guess, a box and it has everything from great happiness to bad luck.
Speaker 1:Actually, its origin is very different, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I didn't know people could be addicted.
Speaker 1:Actually, the origin of omikuji is very different from contemporary way of drawing fortune-telling paper. We used to decide the fortune-telling paper. We used to decide the fortune direction by using the turtle's body.
Speaker 2:Turtle's body. Wow yeah.
Speaker 1:Using the fire, putting on the fire, and then you can putting on the fire and then you can the maybe direction, and this is a fortune direction. This is the original omikuji actually. So we use our natural energy to decide which direction, which we can say.
Speaker 2:This is like fortune coming right so this is based on the turtles. How can I say in English A shell, shell, ah yeah, the design of the shell or the shape of the shell.
Speaker 2:Yes, Fascinating, and so something fascinating I saw in Inuyama. I was at a shrine there and I saw a Inuyama. I was at a shrine there and I saw a Shinto priest, I think. Bless a new car, and so he sort of had this it almost looked like a bonbon on a stick and he sort of walked down the stairs and there was this young couple with a baby and I actually spoke to a Japanese couple next to me saying, oh, what's going on? And I said, uh, it looks like they've got a new car, and so they opened every door and the bonnets and the boots and yeah, so he I think it's called a haraigushi, a wand with lots of shide yeah.
Speaker 2:And he sort of waved it into each opening, maybe chanting something yes, so yeah, what is that? Is that? Obviously to protect the car and the people?
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is a prayer of protecting the car, but in the case of, like, offering a safety drive to the main shrine, but after conducting the prayer at the main shrine, we just move to the car and doing the purification ritual. So maybe that Shinto priest says purification prayer to the car. Four directions, okay, so north, east, west, south, because we believe that even the car has a spirit. Yeah, they have a spirit energy.
Speaker 2:I see, and have you ever done that? Have you ever purified a car?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Many times it's very natural. So if you buy the car, they be seen to shine and to receive the prayer of safety drive.
Speaker 2:And the streamers who folds? Is that something you do or staff do? They fold the shinde.
Speaker 1:Shinto priest.
Speaker 2:Shinto priest. Yeah, so you spend quite a bit of time folding white paper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's very natural, so it does spend so much time to create haraigushi. Yes, I see.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, your folding skills would be good. Yeah, so we touched on this earlier, the idea of matsuri festivals, and that's a big part of Shinto. Yes, and it's commonly said that you always, or you will always, find a festival somewhere in Japan. So there seems to be many festivals. Is this a significant part of Japanese culture, because Japanese used to have many villages?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Is that one of the reasons?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, in order to unify the community, and actually there are 80,000 Shinto shrines all over Japan. It's more than a convenience store, because convenience stores may be around 58,000 maybe I think. So, as you said before, yeah, there are many, actually countryside. You can find many Shinto shrines.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because of nature, so I guess many would be abandoned because of Japan's shrinking population.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes merged.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they merge towns to one shrine.
Speaker 1:Actually it's a good way to merge. So some of the Shinto priests just manage like 20 or 30 Shinto shrines. So you don't need to move that Shinto shrine to a different place, because it's very meaningful to be that Shinto shrines existed in that place, you know, because there's a history. So it's not good to just move to a different place due to the human beings sharing population. But it's really burdened on one Shinto priest. You know it's a very hard job to manage 20 on one Shinto priest. You know it's a very hard job to manage 20 or 30 Shinto shrines by only one Shinto priest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't imagine it must be a struggle, because purity, yeah, they have to be maintained and cleaned. So I guess one thing we haven't talked about is one way to distinguish a temple and a shrine is the tori, sort of that unique gate with two pillars and the curving top, and that can be made from wood, stone, even, um, metal or some type of. And one should always bow before the tori when they go through, and also learnt, you should always walk on one side, never in the middle, because that's where the kami is, that where the kami pass through.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kami pass yeah.
Speaker 2:So one thing I like about Shinto is when you do visit a shrine, the structure makes you present, so you're focused. Because you have to bow before you go through the gate, because you're entering, I guess, the world of the Kemi, then you have to be careful how you walk. I'm walking on a side and then you purify, you wash your hands and mouth and then, yes, you have to clap and bow, and then it's usually there is a strong sense of nature, because there's usually trees or yeah, so it gives you, like this moment to pause during the day and it's like you're stepping into a different world for a few minutes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. Tori symbolizes a boundary between sacred area and human beings area, so it's like getting into the different world. So sometimes I feel like Japanese people unconsciously know how to build that kind of spaces using natural power. Even if you visit Shinto Shrine in the other area, maybe you feel different things compared with outside Shinto Shrine, because maybe there's something essence including inside Shinto shrine.
Speaker 2:I think so. I was in Shibuya on one of my last trips and there was even this very small Shinto shrine, sort of just around the corner from a busy street, and then, once you walk through, yeah, you have this sense of history and things seem quieter and you then, you know, you pull out a coin, maybe a Goyen usually, and, yeah, you do this custom and your focus is on just being there, and then you can have a look at the design of the shrine or the, I guess, the toddy or other elements. So it does take you away, it takes your mind away, your body away, and then, yeah, when you leave, you're still thinking about walking on the side and then, hopefully, most people turn around and and bow, uh, before they leave. So I think it infuses or reminds people to be grateful as well. Like, generally, we, we have a lot to be grateful for where you're from, where I'm from very lucky to be born in these countries.
Speaker 2:So this practice, yeah, it was sort of confusing and I never really understood it, but as I begin to understand it, it's like really fascinating and it's something I hope to share with my audience and something I hope people who are listening to this go and, do you know, visit a shrine, or maybe even yours if they're visiting Osaka, yeah, so yeah, I had that question. Would you say Shinto is custom-based, belief-based, or is it both custom and belief-based for Japanese?
Speaker 1:Maybe. Yeah, basically custom-based, but to some extent I can say belief-based. So have you ever heard the word?
Speaker 2:No, but someone's looking at you.
Speaker 1:Not someone. The sun is watching you, over you, so sun symbolizes the kami of sun. Maybe you know Amaterasu Omikami is an ancestor of the emperor, so it's an enshrined kami at isejingu, and unconscious, necessarily. Maybe japanese people feel that kind of like. So sun is watching you. There's nobody teaching, even at school, but we feel, oh it, oh, maybe Kami is watching you, yeah, so we cannot do bad behavior.
Speaker 2:I like it. Yeah, that's a good way to go about your day-to-day thinking, like positive encouragement and it's I mean, mean, the sun is very important to japanese culture. It's part of the name um, you're on your flag. Yeah, even when I went to, I went to mount fuji and there was this feeling of presence, like the mountains, kind of watching over me, or I feel a mountain. And the weekend we went or the days we went, the forecast was terrible. It was like, oh, it's going to be lots of fog and so I thought, oh, you know, I won't see Mount Fuji. And then something happened and the weather was perfect and the view of Mount Fuji was amazing and it looked like it was photoshopped. It looked incredible. I just couldn't believe how that sort of iconic image of Mount Fuji but yeah, this sort of sense of energy and even someone I interviewed talked about like, oh, you can feel the mountain when you're near it, so maybe suggesting there's spirits or kami in the mountain.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So this oneness with nature, be it the sun, a mountain, a tree, a river, a rock's quite thought-provoking, yeah, and there's I guess there's no fear kind of other religions, you know, depending on the religion if you do something wrong, you could go to hell, yes, or you've sinned and so you must be forgiven.
Speaker 2:There's no sense of fear with shinto. And then, when something bad happens like these disasters, japanese seem to learn acceptance like can't control what's happened. All we can do now is control what we do from now. Yeah, so very powerful life lessons.
Speaker 1:That's right. We cannot change the nature. We cannot change the world easily. Human beings cannot control the world nature. So of course nature has two aspects good and bad for human beings. But maybe Japanese people know that we cannot control nature, so that's why focusing on here and now, yes, and that's all we really have is the here and now.
Speaker 2:Even our experience of the future is always here and now. Even our experience of the future is always here and now?
Speaker 1:Yes, we only have the here and now.
Speaker 2:So if people would like to visit you or visit your website, you do have a website and you have pages in English, so I'll link to your website in the show notes and if people Google your name, I think there's a few videos of you talking about Shintai. Yeah, but do you have a final message for our listeners?
Speaker 1:Yeah, by listening to our conversation, I hope that we are part of nature. We feel we are part of nature, even though we live in a different country, but we are interconnected. So this is my final message Thank you.
Speaker 2:Yes, so because we're interconnected, I'd like to come and visit you. Yes, please. Hopefully that will be in June. So, taishi, so wonderful to talk with you and thank you very much for your time and sharing your knowledge and wisdom with me and our audience yeah, thank you so much for giving a really great opportunity to share my experience as a shinto priest. Yeah, my pleasure and I look forward to seeing you soon in person. Looking forward to seeing you soon.