Finding Clarity Through Zazen with Tosei Shinabe

How can we quiet our minds in a chaotic world?

In this episode of the Ikigai Podcast, Nick speaks with Tosei Shinabe about how Zen meditation offers a path to deep contemplation and inner stillness amidst the noise of modern life.

Transcript

Introduction to Tosei Shinabe

Nick 0:00

Please note that this episode was recorded mostly in Japanese and I provided on-the-spot translations . Some of my translations might have been incomplete or slightly off the mark , so please keep this in mind . And now let's get started with the episode ikigaitribecom . My guest today on the Ikigai podcast is Tosei Shinabe , a Zen Buddhist monk and meditation instructor based in Kyoto , Japan . His journey to monastic life was unconventional , encompassing a law degree , global travels and a career in traditional Kyoto craftsmanship . These experiences deepened his appreciation for the humility and spiritual resonance inherent in Japanese artisanship , ultimately guiding him toward Zen practice . Osho-sama , thank you for joining me today . こちらこそありがとうございます。 . Would you like to share a little bit about your background ?

Tosei 1:04

Okay , my name is Tose Shinabe , please call me Sei , so I am a Zen monk from Kyoto . Now I , how do you say , quit the temple ? Oh really , yeah , I not quit . I keep , keep , connect , connecting , but not every day I go to temple . So I teach Zen meditation and we call Zazen everywhere in Japan . Also upload . I decided to become a monk when I was 32 years old , and now I'm 41 years old .

Tosei 1:58

So before I became a monk , I was a producer producing Japanese traditional crafts yes , every kind of traditional crafts in Kyoto . Before that , I was working in a newspaper company in Kyoto Kyoto's local newspaper and I I did advertisement . I was university student , so I born in the ordinary family in Japan , not in temple . Yeah , if you want to know about more , please ask me . Sure .

Nick 2:49

Yeah , Thank you . So I will call you , say that's okay . Yeah thank you Great . So when you were a teenager , you were a bit of a rebel ? Yes , you were a bit of a rebel , but I think through traveling the world , you learned more about life and yourself . Is that correct ? Yes , which countries did you travel to ?

Tosei 3:20

Mainly Southeast Asia . Mainly Southeast Asia because so I start to travel when I was university student , for example , thailand , laos , china , taiwan , hong Kong , korea , north Korea , south Korea , north Korea , india , nepal , holland , america , united States I forgot , but about 20 countries , about 20 countries ?

Nick 4:13

Yeah , amazing . Do you still travel now Do ?

Tosei 4:19

you sometimes travel . No , not now , because I quit temple last November . So every day I went to temple , not travel , but now I can do that . So one month ago I was in Seychelles , in Africa , to teach someone the Zen meditation for one week .

Nick 4:55

You do travel now ? Yeah , and do you enjoy that ? Yes , of course Of course .

Tosei 5:04

Yes , of course .

Nick 5:05

Yes , of course I'm going to read a quote from an interview about when you were young . So here's the quote . I was always out playing in Osaka and I was always rebelling . My teachers would scold me and call my parents . I was always questioning things and I felt that the adults didn't understand . I don't really remember what exactly I was questioning , but one big thing I do remember is the feeling that humans are also part of nature . We are also one of the animals . That's what I always believed , and I didn't understand why other people didn't feel the same way . Yeah , how did you rebel ? Did you just stay out late ? Did you drink when you were younger ? Stay out late .

Tosei 6:06

Did you drink when you were younger ? Sorry , please say to me in Japanese

Rebellious Youth and Worldly Travels

Tosei 6:15

じゃあ、反抗的だったそうですよね。 はい。 どういうふうに反抗的だった うーん、どういうふうに。 よくわからないんですけど、私も。 yeah , that's right .

Nick 6:40

You were just genuinely rebellious and you wanted more freedom . Yeah , that's right .

Tosei 6:53

Did you drink alcohol for ?

Nick 6:54

example Ah , of course , of course , okay , of course . And did you stay out late ? Did you come ?

Tosei 7:05

home late .

Nick 7:06

Yes , yes , yes . So you were like a bad boy sometimes .

Tosei 7:12

I don't think so . But yeah , Many people say to me bad boy , yeah .

Nick 7:21

But you were wanting to be free and you wanted to explore life . Yeah , interesting .

Tosei 7:32

So yeah . So why was it decided to live my life ? It was strange .

Nick 7:52

So you were thinking why does my life have to be chosen by others and why do people accept this ? Yes , yes , you wanted to choose your own way .

Tosei 8:07

Yeah , parents or society country everyone said go ahead and live like this .

Nick 8:19

That was frustrating , so parents , people and society was pushing you , or pushing everyone , to go this way ? Yes , but you wanted to go another way . And did that anger you ? Yes , that angered you , okay , but surprisingly you had a lawyer . But surprisingly , you got a lawyer's degree . So you completed a law degree , which I think is six years , but you never practiced law , you never became a lawyer . What did you learn from studying law ?

Tosei 9:06

What did you learn from studying law ? Very complicated . So I want to say in Japanese the law is always vague and the good and bad things are always vague , and the law is always late because it's always slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow , it's slow . Of course , there are cases where it is not enough and the law is made up of the opinions of many people living in that society . 多数決のようなことで決まるっていうことですね。 ただしその多数決は何によって、 その社会の人々の意見がどうやって決まるかっていうと、 メディアによって決まってるんですね。 その当時の日本では。 . ですから当時の日本は、 例えばテレビで言われていること、 In Japan , the news was broadcast on TV and now it's on the internet . I think the media has a lot of power . I think humans think about everything with the information they input while they are alive . I learned that the media has a very strong power and I don't think that law was always right .

Nick 11:30

Okay , that's quite a bit , but the strong points were law is influenced by societal opinion and societal opinion is strongly influenced by media .

Nick 11:47

Yes , which obviously is not always a good thing . So that's what you learned . You also learned that law is coming to existence after an event or after something goes wrong . Yes , after an event or after something goes wrong , yes , and sometimes what is right or what is wrong can be vague or hard to determine . Yeah , and I think you said a few other things , but that's yes . It is interesting . We grow up learning this is right , this is wrong , but that's determined or shaped by other people through media .

Tosei 12:48

The important thing is that the law has the power to take away people's lives . It takes away people's freedom and lives . We're all in this together , in the sense of a country Does it take away ? 自由を奪うっていうのは取る そう、自由を奪う。 例えば捕まえてJUに入れるとか、死刑にするとか、 そういうことが可能になってしまうでしょ、法律があれば。 . 恐ろしいことだと思いましたね。 .

Nick 13:21

So law can , or the legal system can , take away people's freedom or even their life . So if they commit a crime they might go to jail , or if it's a serious crime , they get capital punishment .

Tosei 13:39

Yes , yes , but if it's written in the law , everyone accepts it . でも法律に書いてあったらみんなそれを受け入れるんですね。 .

Nick 13:48

Everyone , or most people , accept these laws , but it sounds like you didn't なぜなら法律は同時に人は自由ですって言うんですよ。 . So law is saying we make laws to give you freedom , but that's not always the case . Yes , there you go , but that's not always the case . Yes , there you go . So when you traveled , you traveled to about 20 countries . Yeah , how did traveling in all these different countries shape your perspective , your thoughts about life ?

Tosei 14:46

Yeah , my common sense is not common sense . Joushiki wa joushiki denai . Everyone has a common sense , but very , very individual thing . Common sense is not common sense If someone have different culture , different language , different religion , but I don't know why . But so we can share the emotion . We can share the emotion and we can bring each other , we can give each other the how to say I understand .

Nick 16:16

I understand . I learned that I could do it . Different race , different religion , different beliefs people have compassion . Amoyari , people will help you when they see you need help , and so you learned even though there are many differences , different opinions , different common sense , people can create or give compassion , and that's a good thing .

Tosei 16:53

And Japanese common sense . I've been taught Japanese common sense , but that's my common sense . No-transcript . Everyone has a completely different common sense . Yeah , it's the same as the law Good thing and bad thing .

Nick 17:33

It changes completely depending on the place . So the idea of what is good or what is wrong differs from country , but also maybe even person . Some people have different opinions . That's right . You saw a connection to law and travelling experience .

Tosei 17:56

Yes .

Nick 17:57

That's interesting . Yeah , that's good . I guess when you travel you learn so much about life , other people and yourself . Yes , that's right , exactly . Then you got into traditional crafts dento , koke and you studied and practiced these crafts . Do you want to talk about that ? What crafts did you study ?

Tosei 18:33

Many , many kinds of stuff , for example ceramics , or Nishijin or Nishijin . Or is Kyoto's special weaving ? Weaving , yeah , yeah , for kimono , for obi , yeah . Or lantern , japanese lantern , or Japanese lacquerware , urushi lacquerware , bamboo , crafts , bamboo crafts . It's craft ,

Law Studies and Media Influence

Tosei 19:09

Kintsugi . Do you know ?

Nick 19:11

Yeah .

Tosei 19:12

Yeah , repair by gold , gold lacquer . Yeah , yeah , gold lacquer .

Nick 19:21

I think you made tea caddies . Yes , yes , yes , yes , Shazitsu And-ami cooking utensils , yeah , also kana-ami .

Tosei 19:32

Every kind of reference class in Kyoto , wow .

Nick 19:38

How long did you do that ? For Three years to four years , so you would have learned to use your hands , your mind , concentration yes , making these , yeah , I learned about that , about this , but I don't make about this .

Tosei 20:03

but I don't make , just I produce that . So I ask graphic people , what do you want to do ? And I connect people and I organize this exhibition , or I bring him that new designer or , yeah , I did branding , そういうことやってました。 僕が作るんじゃないです。 作っている人に助けることをやってたんです。 .

Nick 20:35

So you promoted these crafts to help artists ?

Tosei 20:41

Yes , I understand 三年じゃ作るのもできないよ。 そうですね。 一個もできない。 一個でも。 . Yeah , artists , I understand . San nen ja . Tsukuru no mo dekinai , yo Ikko mo dekinai .

Nick 20:49

Yeah , I was surprised . I was thinking , wow , that's a lot in three years . Okay , so you were promoting these artists and crafts , kokunai within Japan , or kaigai Kokunai .

Tosei 21:02

Within Japan ? Yes , but I live in Japan , in Kyoto , in Kyoto , but sometimes I bring the crafts , bring to the abroad . Yeah , sometimes .

Nick 21:20

I see . So these crafts . When I think about them , I think of the word shokunin damashi , yeah . So did you see and experience shokunin damashi when you were helping these artists ? Yes , did you see it in reality ?

Tosei 21:45

Yes , その3年間か4年間は とっても自由に仕事させてもらってたんですね。 なので本当に朝起きてから 深夜0時過ぎるまで yes , I drank with the craftsmen for a long time . I was doing it for 24 hours on 365 days . It seems like a very short time 3 or 4 years and I was able to connect with all the craftsmen who were working hard in the same generation as me , and I'm still in a deep relationship with my family . I'm still in a deep relationship with my family . I'm still in a deep relationship with .

Nick 22:59

My family , spent those three or four years spending your whole life with the craftspeople , from morning to night . You would be by their side watching them work , but you'd also go out with them , eat with them , drink with them , and you were like family . So you were very close and you're about the same age yeah , same age .

Tosei 23:29

Mostly , but of course younger or older .

Nick 23:33

Older . So you experienced their life ? Yeah , by spending time with them . Yeah , wow , wow . Did this connect you to working at a newspaper ? Did this connect you to advertising ? No , completely different . Completely different . How did you survive financially ? How did you make money Now , at that time , when you were yeah ?

Tosei 24:06

Yeah , I was in a company . The company is half A company , owned half Kyoto prefecture and Kyoto and half is Kyoto's . Many companies not not government . So yeah , so , and so the handman go say handman mean can be a key , or the sana me a key , or kai shanimo tk eru tkoto kato kyo tono kame ni . I didn't need to bring it back to the company . It was a company that I was doing it for Kyoto . It was a company that was made for that purpose . I didn't have to bring back the profits to that company .

Promoting Traditional Kyoto Crafts

Nick 25:31

So I should have done what the craftsmen really did . Ok , so you were sponsored or paid to help promote these craftspeople by a large , a large company where profit didn't matter . It was focused on just . We need to promote the craftspeople of Kyoto .

Tosei 26:00

So you received the income from Kyoto Prefecture ? Yeah , I see , that's nice , I see .

Nick 26:20

That's nice . Let's also touch on the temple . You've spent your time , obviously , training to become a priest and where you worked as a priest , so that's Ryosokuni Temple , is that correct ?

Tosei 26:38

Ryosokuin Temple , ryosokuni .

Nick 26:39

Temple . Is that correct , Ryosokuin ?

Tosei 26:40

Temple Ryosokuin .

Nick 26:41

Temple , so would you like to tell us about that temple , ryosokuin ?

Tosei 26:48

Mm . Ah , okay . So when I was I became a monk , first I get in monastery Keninji Monastery . There is a training temple , zen Dō , yes , sō Dō , we call Sō Dō . Sō is a priest or a monk , dō is a Bō yes , bō . Three is Bo . Yes , three years I was in there . So when I was in there I can not connect the outside Soto and concentrate to the training . We call it Shugyo . So every day , day , minimum five hours sit and the other time almost ten hours do mostly cleaning , greening , green yeah , green or farming , cooking , something like that . So , and I was in there for three years and then I joined the Ryosokuin temple , ryosokuin temple , ryosokuin temple , also in Kenrinji temple , yeah , so Ryosokuin is in Kenrinji temple . So Ken Ninja has 14 temples . Ken Ninja is a big temple , so one of that , ryosoku-in , is one of that .

Nick 28:52

So it's a sub-temple , sub-temple , it's a temple within a temple yes , and you did your training there three years .

Tosei 29:05

In Ryosokuin , ryosokuin , five years .

Nick 29:07

Five years , sorry Five years , and every day Zazen five hours . So seated meditation five hours ? No , no , no .

Tosei 29:18

In monastery Keninji Monastery , no , no , in monastery Keninji Monastery for three years . Three years , yeah , three years , and after that five years Ryosoku-in-Tempo .

Nick 29:31

Oh so . I was at the Hachinenka . Yeah , eight years of training , okay , yes , and that was mainly cleaning .

Tosei 29:44

Yes , five hours of meditation .

Tosei 29:47

So yes , In the monastery every day , minimum five hours , maximum 15 or 20 hours in a day , isazen and clean up for three years and five years in Ryosokuin mainly . I do clean up also , but I do . I teach the people , for people , how to do Zen meditation mainly , and I sometimes I write kanji character Zen words for the people or something like that . Nice , yeah , okay , so , so , so Monastery is also one of the Keninji temple sub-temple Sub-temple . Yeah , yeah , yeah , juyon , there is 14 sub-temples in monastery also and Ryosokuin also Sub-temple of Kenrinji temple . Yeah .

Nick 30:55

It sounds like a big temple , it sounds like a big temple .

Tosei 31:01

Kenrinji is the most oldest Zen temple in Kyoto . Oldest temple in Kyoto yeah , 820 or 830 years old , wow , yeah .

Nick 31:17

Established . Do you feel the history ? Do you feel the history ? Do you feel the history ?

Tosei 31:25

Yes , yes , of course , but in Japan , in Kyoto , especially in Kyoto , 800 years is not so old , not old 800 .

Nick 31:38

Not so old , yeah , not only 800 , that's all . Yeah . So the opportunity to become a Zen monk

Unexpected Path to Zen Monkhood

Nick 31:46

was quite random . Would you like to talk about that ?

Tosei 31:51

so so I don't have any plans to become a monk , basically . But when I was promoting Japanese crafts , I used to have an exhibition for ceramics in Ryosoku-in . Ryosoku-in's monk asked me please produce the exhibition . So I did that and I finished the exhibition . So the monk asked me again why don't you be a monk ? Why don't you be a Zen monk ? He wanted to see me become monk , become Zen monk . I don't know why , I don't know why . But then I start to think I will be monk . What is that ? But yeah , and I decided , I decided to be a monk .

Nick 33:25

That's an interesting story . Very simple , simple , yeah , and that priest or that monk was Ito Torio-san .

Tosei 33:39

Yes .

Nick 33:40

Yes , so what do you ?

Tosei 33:48

think he saw in you .

Nick 33:48

Why ? Why did he think you should become a priest ? Yeah ?

Tosei 34:00

I used to ask him why you asked me .

Nick 34:05

So he said just 直感 and 見た目 , 私の見た目 見た目って how to say how you look , the way you look , maybe , the way you do things , the way you go about your life . The chokkan were like just a sudden thought yeah , so he had a sudden thought yeah . So he had a sudden thought , Shinaba-san should become a priest . Yeah . And then he told you you look like you could be a priest , so why don't you become a priest ?

Tosei 35:33

Why don't you ? Why I thought ?

Nick 35:35

that and not really leading a healthy life , and so you think it's quite unusual or strange ? He saw that in you , despite your lifestyle . Yes , yes .

Tosei 35:51

Very strange .

Nick 35:53

Do you drink now ?

Tosei 35:55

Don't you drink ? No , I don't drink much . I go if I'm called to 飲む飲まない . ほとんど飲んでないですね。 呼ばれれば行くけど、 その当時から比べたら100分の1ぐらいになってるんじゃないですか。 OK .

Nick 36:13

So you rarely drink , only when you're asked , but it's like once in a hundred now , compared to your past where you used to drink . My , my mom used to drink every night , yeah , but now rarely . So that's interesting . Your life really changed . Did you say yes quickly or did you need time to think about the decision ?

Tosei 36:46

It didn't take that long . Maybe at that point in time it was already decided , but I needed time to think about how to make it happen . That was also a direct answer . I wanted to do this . Yes , yes . How to say it in English ? Gōriteki Chotto shiraberu .

Nick 37:40

Gōriteki , gōriteki .

Tosei 37:42

Gō-u-ri-teki , gō-u-ri-teki , yes , ah chitto mata .

Nick 37:48

So you kind of knew instantly yeah , I will become a priest , but you had to take time . Gōriteki demashita , Hmm , Um 合理的出ました。 Logical , Rational , うん。 .

Tosei 38:10

そう、自分の選択として、 伝統工芸を手伝ってたわけですね、僕は。 . で、伝統工芸を手伝うっていうことは、 I was helping traditional craftsmen . And when I say helping traditional craftsmen , I mean people who buy traditional craftsmen , people who get them . They buy the things , but the philosophy and beauty that is embedded in the things beauty , sense of beauty . Of course , technology and techniques are the same . The techniques that have been made in a long history are the same . I buy all of those things because I want to keep them by my side .

Nick 38:53

The philosophy that is included in it is important Concept is the most important thing when I thought about it .

Tosei 39:06

the concept of Zen is the core of Japanese concepts . It's an important part . I may be saying too much about the core , but I thought that if I became a player and told everyone directly , I would be able to do that .

Nick 39:35

craftspeople sell their craft , their , their pottery , or their tea caddies or their lacquer . You are not just selling a product , you are selling their spirit or their essence in the work of their product , and I guess this is like a type of craftsman um , it's like their flow or or their emotion or their spirit going into the product , and I guess this is , um , this is very much a part of japanese culture and I , I think you saw , oh , that's your yakuhari , that's your role , your role to help this philosophy or this way , this Japanese way of craftsmanship , which goes into the art , and you saw a connection to Zen , with you helping craftspeople sell their work . So there's a deep philosophy behind this . Japanese essence is found in craft and there's a connection between Zen . And you saw this connection , yes , and so you thought , ah , I will become a priest . It's like you saw the bigger picture .

Tosei 41:08

Yeah , I want to have time to think myself , think the human beings , think about life , think about the world . So I don't know many about the training of Zen , but I know , for three years in the monastery , very , very long time to sit . So I don't know what is Zazen , I don't know what is Zen completely , but there is a time , very long time , and no connect with outside . Yeah , so I want to think , I want to do everything and no connect with outside . Yeah , yeah , wow , yeah . So I want to think , I want to do everything and I want to make sense about these things . What is life , what is me , what is human beings , what is the world ? So it's a reason also .

Tosei 42:19

Okay it's a reason also okay .

Nick 42:20

So becoming a zen monk gave you this opportunity to deeply think on these questions of life . What is life , who am I ? Why is the way , why is the world this way ? And that's in isolation . So you really had no contact outside of the temple .

Tosei 42:41

No , contact is not not correct . Little contact , almost almost no contact , almost no contact . Yeah , I was bad boy , so I was . Of course I can go through outside . Really , come back .

Nick 43:02

Secret dream I see . Okay , that's interesting . So what was the training ? Very hard , it sounds like it was very hard , very hard .

Rigorous Monastic Training

Tosei 43:20

Very hard . So there's a short time to sleep . Always we in the monastery , always we wake up 3.30 in the morning Wow , 3.30 in the morning in summertime , 4 o'clock in wintertime . And we got to bed at 1 o'clock Wow , first year . First year , and second year , we can go to bed , to go to bed 11 o'clock , 11 o'clock so , and there is no free time . No free time , no free time . So if I finish my job and if I have five minutes , I sleep two minutes , I sleep two minutes . That's about it . If you don't do that , your stamina won't last .

Nick 44:49

Why . Why is that the case ? Why is there only a small amount of sleep ? Is that part of the training ? Is that to condition your mind ? Yeah , I think that's part of sleep . Is that part of the training ? Is that to condition ?

Tosei 45:00

your mind ? Yeah , I think so , but I often do it simply . I have a lot of work , okay .

Nick 45:10

So , really , you just have so much to do , you have no time for sleep . Well , let's talk about your life now . So Zazen is a big part of your daily life and you , you practice it , but you , you teach it . But what is Zazen and how long do you do it every day ?

Tosei 45:39

now , oh , okay , now when I want to sit , I sit . I don't decide . And I think Zazen is a technique , very actual body technique , technique , very actual body technique , to To observe myself and observe surroundings , observe the world . Why observe ? Because we want to know about this Myself , and we want to know about human beings . What is this , what is life and what is the world ? We want to know how . Just observe , just observe the technique of observation . I think Zazen is .

Nick 46:40

So that's really interesting , and we talked about this last time . But in the West , zazen , or meditation , the idea is to clear your mind of thoughts and not think , but you told me the opposite is true . Yeah , zazen gives you time to observe , to contemplate and to exhaust the answers to the questions .

Tosei 47:10

Yeah , yeah , yeah . Exhaust the answers to the questions . Yeah , yeah , yeah . So though , if you want to forget , you can forget , but if you cannot forget something , so so you should think about that . Finally the question exhausted , asking yourself again and again , and finally makes sense and you can release that . そうじゃなくて , 疑問があったらそれを徹底的に納得いくまで , 考え尽くして , 考え尽くした結果それはリリースできるっていう話ですね .

Nick 48:20

So the practice of Zazen is not to ignore the question or to push it away . The practice is to take in the question , have it in your mind and until you find the answer or are satisfied , yeah , you keep going . And then , once you find the answer , it's gone and then maybe the next question . Yes , so it gives you space . It gives you space to just focus . It gives your mind space to process all these questions or thoughts we put aside because we're so busy . We're busy every day . We have this thought , but ah , it's a good thing , I'll think about it later . So Zazen gives us that space to process all the chaos in our mind .

Tosei 49:23

Yeah , so , first of all , what am I doing now ? What am I doing in my life ? Why am I doing that ? You should think about that first , everyone . まず自分が一体何を今しているのか、何をして生きているのか、なぜそれをしているのかっていうのをまず考えるべきですね、みんな。 どうして今こうやって生きているのか。 ほとんど選んでないんですよ、私もそうだけど。 その事実をちゃんと受け止めるべきですね、まずは。 .

Nick 49:47

So it gives us the space to think about why am I here , what am I doing , why am I leading this life ? Most of my life is being chosen for me by other people , so that's very important . We have that time to , yeah , get some clarity . Yeah .

Tosei 50:09

We cannot choose how to be born . Yeah , we cannot choose how to be born . Yeah , gender also , country , religion , timing , we cannot choose . We cannot choose our life . No , no , no how to be born . But we can choose how to live , how to think .

Nick 50:34

Amazing . Yes . So yes , we were never given the choice of how we were born , where we were born , our race , our gender , our culture , religion . But just sitting we have the opportunity to think about how do I want to live ?

Tosei 50:56

Yeah , so most people , also me . So human being is very special . My life is very special . Life we want to think Precious . But why was I born ? Because the egg in your fridge doesn't change . The grass in front

Understanding Zazen as Observation

Tosei 51:27

of me is a grass , it's tamago egg . To kawaranai koe nani Me no mae ni haete iru kusa grass . Ippon no sono tane to kawaranai wake desu yo hontou wa . So that is life .

Nick 51:44

That's life .

Tosei 51:45

Yes , Sore o mitomeru no totemo kowai n desu .

Nick 51:50

I see so , looking at life from the perspective of . I see so looking at life from the perspective of . There's one blade of grass or the egg in the refrigerator . So looking at life this way can be scary , like , ah , life is precious , I have this life , but all around me is life . So do you think we are afraid to think and focus about life because we know it will end and we will die ? Yeah , so , we should think about death until we are satisfied with our own answer about death . Is that what you're saying ?

Tosei 53:01

Yes , yes , that's right , that's right Live death , yeah , そう。 .

Nick 53:25

Yeah , so , yeah , okay , so make sense okay so we must understand that our life is no different from the blade of grass or the the egg , and that once we can process that , or understand that , only after that can we start to think about how to live .

Tosei 53:55

Yeah , that's a very free thing to do , because we're not bound by anything , we're not bound by our family history , we're not bound by human history , we're not bound by religion , we're not bound by law . We're not bound , we are .

Nick 54:18

Then , free Free from religion , free from politics , free from society , free from family history , free from human history . So it sounds like there is acceptance of reality and then we are free . It's like , is it kind of like Arugamama ?

Tosei 54:47

Arugamama . That's right , Even if you don't realize it Like , like .

Nick 55:06

So you're saying we're actually free when we're born yeah , saying we're actually free when we're born , yeah , but we're not free in our mind and we , we , we create it . We create our own prison in our mind through our thinking yeah , by you , by your own by your own thoughts and your urges and desires and impulses .

Nick 55:34

Yeah , and so , arugamama , is this idea of as it is or this is reality ? Yeah , I think it's . The biggest personal problem is we don't control our thinking . We respond , we react and we we don't stop just to think . And now it's . It's harder . Today . It's harder with , um , you know , with with technology and phones and so much stimuli , very hard to relax and think . So meditation , zazen and meditation is increasingly becoming popular and that is your new role , like your yakugari , this is your role is to teach . You do it online and in person , so do you enjoy this role of teaching ?

Tosei 56:49

Yeah , I enjoy , I enjoy .

Nick 56:51

I enjoy , I would like to .

Tosei 56:57

It's a job that makes you free .

Nick 57:01

It's a job that makes you free , freeing people , freeing people from their , from the prisons of their mind . Yeah , yeah yeah , sanka Steiner , so I would love to participate , so I will try to do that , yeah , so let's talk about another aspect of your life which is really interesting , and I guess this is like a hobby or a practice for you , and it's kekka seki . I guess the translation is boundary stones . Yeah , yeah , so yeah , would you like to describe these stones and what are they used for ?

Tosei 57:50

oh yeah , kekkai Seki . Basically put in Zen garden or tea house garden . It is a boundary . You cannot enter over this , over that or one more meaning one is boundary and one is you should stop here and look around , look around the guy . This here is a good viewpoint . Yeah , two things basically . Yeah , and so I always work in Zen garden when I was in monastery and Ryosokuin , so I can do many things about Japanese garden Tie the rope or cut woods or something . Now I make it , but my work is not for the garden . Of course you can put in the garden also , but what do you call it ? Put in your thoughts . Put in your thoughts .

Nick 59:11

Put in your thoughts , yeah , so I should explain .

Tosei 59:24

So these are stones that you wrap or you tie up with hemp .

Nick 59:26

And so first you take hemp , strings of hemp , and then you weave them , yes , into a tight , almost like tight , rope , yes , yes , and then you tie the stone with the rope and it looks quite organically beautiful . Thank you , did you have one ? I think you have one , okay , and so how long did that take you to wrap to make Two ?

Tosei 1:00:00

hours to most of maybe , maybe .

Nick 1:00:06

About two hours , yeah , and that's quite a small one , yeah , so larger ones can take . What five hours ?

Tosei 1:00:20

Yeah , so to make rope it takes time weaving the rope .

Nick 1:00:28

So yeah , you said it's like making something for your mind . So when you make it , do you reach the flow state , when you're weaving , and then you're in the flow state .

Tosei 1:00:53

Yeah , sometimes . So , like waving mufflers or waving status , do simple one thing we concentrate highly Highly , yes , almost , yeah , it's same .

Nick 1:01:19

Does that feel like a spiritual practice ?

Tosei 1:01:23

Hmm , very simple , actual . Thing .

Nick 1:01:29

Shokunin work , shokunin work , yeah , yeah , and you sell these online .

Tosei 1:01:41

Not me . One gallery in Switzerland they sell this online Online , but maybe completely sold out . Yes , they maybe completely sold out .

Nick 1:01:53

Yes , they're always sold out . I checked . You make these regularly .

Tosei 1:01:59

Yes , every week これを欲しがっている人が いたときに 作ります。 だからスイスのギャラリーは スイスにたくさんこれを欲しがっている人がいるんですね。 ということです。 .

Nick 1:02:19

Okay , so there are many people in Switzerland who like these stones and you make them to order . So when someone wants one , you make them .

Tosei 1:02:33

Yes . When someone wants one , you make them . Yes . Yes , 何でもないものとしては何でもないし機能も大してないわけです . だけどここにはコンセプトがあって , これを手に取る人はそのコンセプトを買っているんだと思います I understand .

Nick 1:03:03

So you're saying it's just a stone wrapped in rope , it has really no function , but people are buying . I guess the concept behind the stone , which is this idea of it's you said it has two functions . Really , one is to stop you to look around to notice the world , and it's also a boundary in gardens .

Boundary Stones and Mindful Craftsmanship

Nick 1:03:35

But I guess people are buying . I guess they're buying shakunin , damashi . They're buying what you put into the stone through your craft . So they're buying craftsmanship , you think .

Tosei 1:03:51

I know craftsmanship . I think I know craftsmanship . You think I know craftsmanship . I think I know craftsmanship . So I am not craft people , because craft Craftsmen are people who have been training for decades . I can't call myself a craftsman , it's rude . I can't call myself a craftsman , it's rude . But what I'm putting in this stone is If it's in the garden , I'll stop and look around , even if you don't put it in the garden . When you see this , what is your life ? Why am I living now ?

Nick 1:04:48

I want you to stop and look around . So you're saying a few things respectfully , that you're not a craftsman , and becoming a craftsman takes decades of hard work , working hard every day and it would be rude to say I'm a craftsman . But you hope that when people buy these stones and they don't really put them in their garden , they're going to put it somewhere in their house . You hope when they see the stone , they stop and reflect what am I doing with my life , or what matters to me , or they kind of observe the world around them . That's what you hope they do when they see the stones .

Tosei 1:05:35

Yes , and that is same as do Zazen , yeah , zazen , okay .

Nick 1:05:45

So actually say sort of the important question is what is Zen ? So outside of Japan , zen is very commercialized , yeah , and people say , oh , this phone is Zen design or I want a Zen room . So Zen has become like an adjective , like kaioshi , like oh , this cup is Zen , but what ? How do you define Zen ?

Tosei 1:06:20

Zen is a way of thinking . Way of thinking , yeah , how to see the people , how to see the life , how to see the world , way of thinking . Religion is a way of thinking . I think Zen is one philosophy of Japan , nice , and Zazen is a technique to install the philosophy Zen philosophy , the philosophy Zen philosophy .

Nick 1:06:50

Nice , all right , I think you know my podcast is about Ikigai , so do you think Ikigai is tied ? To Zen , of course , good , okay , of course .

Tosei 1:07:08

Yeah , so ikigai . I think ikigai is that you make by yourself . You have to be convinced of how you live your life to choose a way to live a convinced life . So to be convinced of what you are doing . To decide how you live your life , you need to observe reality first .

Nick 1:08:00

So ikigai is something you create or make for yourself , I guess , through life , experience and decisions , and it's also something you must satisfy . Yes , it's something you must explore and satisfy for your life to move forward , for you to live life fully . So ikanji , ikanji , okay , and for example , can you have many ikigai . So maybe is making kekaiseki one ikigai for you . Yeah , yeah , yeah .

Tosei 1:08:53

Yeah , yeah , and introduce Zazen . It's also . Spend time with family also , his friends also , and do something drinking with craftsmen , yeah , yeah also . Yeah , exactly , and trip all over the world also and meet someone , I don't know , someone . Meet unknown people also . Yeah , and yes , yes .

Nick 1:09:46

So it can be everywhere . We have many things , so it can be everywhere , many things . Well , on the subject of learning Zazen , where can people learn Zazen from you ?

Tosei 1:10:02

Kyoto , first in Kyoto , so Kyoto . I have many place to do Zazen session and one is online , online . Online , so I have online session and but now I have classes in online , but only Japanese now , but I can , I have a personal session also . So if you want to do that , I can do that . So online personal session , but my english ability is very , very poor . Like this right オンラインで座る , 細かい哲学的な 質問とか 抽象的な質問とか テキストでやり取りするとかね , そういうこともできると思う , alright .

Nick 1:11:21

So people can go to Kyoto and learn from you . You also do it online . People can do it 個人的に , one man to man , one on one online and can do it uh called jinteki , so one man to man , one , one-on-one online and even through text , where you offer philosophical questions to contemplate yeah , and of course , if , if someone invites me

Defining Zen and Finding Ikigai

Nick 1:11:52

so I can go there .

Nick 1:11:56

Okay , yeah , well maybe I could invite you to do a Zazen online for my community , oh , if it's okay . Yeah , yeah , we can talk about that later , okay , community , if it's okay . Yeah , yeah , we can talk about that later , okay . So I have one more question before we finish . So what is zen kotoba ?

Tosei 1:12:27

yoko aru desu ne ichigo ichie toka .

Nick 1:12:30

What is one zen word or Zen saying you would like to teach the listeners ?

Tosei 1:12:40

Oh , there is many , many Zen words I like . Okay , one very short word is Nikon or Jikon . It's meaning just now now . So there is no past , there is no future past thing and the future thing is just in your head , just in your soul . There is , there's only now .

Nick 1:13:44

There's no . The past is the past . The future can only be experienced now .

Tosei 1:13:53

So there's only now , うん。 ですね。 ですね。 今は今。 今しか。 そうそうそう。 過去も未来も存在しない。 それは頭の中、想像の中だけのもので、 あるのは、現実にあるのは今だけ。 うん。 , うん。 , yes。 なので、あのー、 .

Nick 1:14:28

There's only now . There's no reason to be trapped in the past . There's no reason to fear the future . You have now , and that's this is the way to live your life is to focus on the now , because the past and the future are concepts of the mind yes , that's right , nikon . Nikon . Now I like it . Thank you , Thank you . So . Thank you so much , Tosei Shinabe-san Oshio-sama , for your time today , you too .

Tosei 1:15:01

Thank you too .

Nick 1:15:02

Really enjoyed it and , yes , I'd love to come and visit you in Kyoto .

Tosei 1:15:09

Yeah , okay , thank you very much .